No expert in the world agrees with you. I know you're eager for eroded abunk this. There's zero evidence of what you're proposing.
I think this is laying in the cryo-tier a little. I brought all the experts to you. Bring some experts to the public.
I encourage them to come forward. Like, come forward and then I won't laugh at you.
I know that you're going to be there.
I am here with Midwest and Merrick Von Rennencamp.
Both of you are very well-known. Merrick, kind of on the pro side in certain cases where I wouldn't call you dogmatically pro-UFO.
And Mick has done an amazing job. I think you're doing a service of debunking a lot of UFO videos that just are clearly fake.
And so I'm honored to have you both here because I think you're both the most serious on this sort of, you know, this is a poor way of saying it, but pro and anti-side.
And so yeah, I'm very excited.
Since 2016. And I think you've always done a pretty good job. And I've heard things from, you know, UFO junky friends of mine.
Like, oh, it makes like a bad faith actor, but all of our conversations we've had. I find you to be pretty earnest and cool.
I'll start with you, Mary.
So I will, I'll be very honest. I didn't think about this topic.
I thought it was squarely in tinfoil hat territory. This is not anything on my radar.
I missed the big 2017 story with Leslie Cain and Ralph Blumenthal.
It's just as a testament to how little I was tracking this.
But I did stumble upon, I think it was late 2019, the interview that Commander Fraver did on Joe Rogan.
And I previously worked at the Pentagon. I worked with some Navy aviators, naval aviators, more rotary wing guys.
But I know the type, the bravado, the way they carry themselves. And as soon as I watch five minutes of Fraver in this guy is the real deal, right?
I'm a skipper of a story squadron out on the West Coast, the FAA 41, black aces.
We exchanged a whole lot of emails. I think we did a few Zoom calls. Yeah.
This is years ago. And, you know, just be transparent. I, the deeper I dug into mixed theories.
And first of all, I'll just say, like, who's this Mick West guy? Who thinks he knows more than the government? Like, okay.
And, and you know, when there's some pretty deep nuance. And from my perspective, I found, again, from my pit and my opinion, he was wrong about a lot of his theories.
And the deeper we dug, I'm like, my goodness. There's something to this.
Well, I am a retired video game programmer, which is very different background to America. And I, after I retired, I took a writing.
And I was just doing stuff like writing for Gain De Nantes, magazine, and so I actually kind of moved into the skeptical arena, like investigating conspiracy theories, things like that.
And one of the first things I did was I was on Wikipedia, just messing around with I used to edit Wikipedia about, I've got about 18 years ago.
And I saw this article on the Chem Trail conspiracy theory, which is this fun theory where the government is spreading things behind planes.
And we did some, well, I did some work on that on my blog. And that blog cannot be evolved into my current site, Metabung.org.
But with the Chem Trail stuff, I got really into doing things like tracking planes and trying to figure out what people were seeing in their videos.
And so after that, it became kind of a natural thing for me to start looking at UFO videos. And I occasionally did a few over the years, but it really kind of took off in, I think it was 2016, or perhaps the start of 2017.
And it was actually just a discipline. And we were able to prove that pretty conclusively. Not everybody agrees straight away, but I think like the American would agree that case is pretty much solved.
And when I first looked at them, when I looked at the Flier 1 video, it seemed very similar to this Chilean video. And so I thought, perhaps it's the same type of thing. So I started delving into it.
It wasn't exactly the same type of thing, but there were related aspects. And I really enjoyed the process of investigating UFO videos.
Because it was so similar to the work I used to do with video games, except kind of in reverse, but it was all the same mathematical techniques or the analysis techniques debugging and debunking of various similar things because they're both about finding the root cause of something.
And so I got hooked and I've been doing it ever since and I've done a whole bunch of different videos. American Eye of agreements on several of these. And we have disagreements on a few of them.
And I think a lot of the time those disagreements kind of fall in the videos that are somewhat more ambiguous. And this is a problem in general with the UFO videos, but I'm keeping going.
No, definitely. I mean, I would certainly agree that people asked me, don't you believe aliens might exist? And I think obviously in the universe, almost certainly, there's some type of alien life, probably some type of alien civilization.
I just don't see it as good evidence of emisiting this here. I wouldn't really hours, but I just don't think there was good evidence of that happening.
I previously before I went down the rabbit hole, I was in Midwest scamp. I thought the universe is exceptionally large. We just cannot conceive how large it is.
And I firmly believe that there was life out there, not that it was here. Fast forward. Over the last, I'd say three, four years. I have done it.
I'd say a deep dive into the history of this topic. And I've read the raw case files, the raw blue book, casepalm.
No analysis, just right, just the straight reports. And I've come to a very different conclusion. I'm a big fan of James McDonald. I don't know if you guys are familiar with him, but very, very prominent figure in the history of this topic.
He's an atmospheric physicist. I encourage anybody watching to read anything and everything that he has written start with science and default. It's a remarkable critique of the Condon committee, which we can get.
I am, I'd say I'm partial to that because of just the the long historical record and I've got a ton of cases that I'd like to get into because I think they are related to some of these videos and we can talk about that.
As someone who delves into the most heretical thinkers and ideas of our time, I appreciate products that challenge the norm.
Lucy breakers do just that. My personal go to flavor is mint, whether I'm deep into a podcast discussion exploring new frontiers or brainstorming ideas throwing in a Lucy is an easy way to keep the day moving.
Thanks so much to Lucy, sponsoring today's episode. So I think we should just dive into the footage. And you know, yeah, that's just interrupt. I just want to quickly just acknowledge and again, I bring a historical kind of government perspective this. Can we just acknowledge what has happened over the last five years. We've gone 80 years and I we're literally at the 80 year anniversary of the first reports of food fighters. Like that happened November of 1944 80 years of denial, ridicule of the scation to.
And I love this quote from Mick June 20, 2020. This is when Rubio snuck a provision into, he know what we're talking about right stuck a provision into Senate intelligence committee language and mixed quote is years will pass. It will recede in memory little will come of it. I assure you in in June of 2020, I probably would have agreed with that. Now we have arrow.
I think it's about 3 4 dozen. We just heard yes or with this week that they're at full operational capability. 3 4 dozen people working at a at a UFO office. Right. 1600 cases as a last count.
And his director just came out and said in essence, we're I'm baffled. I have an engineering and science degree. I'm baffled. I don't know what's going on. And I don't know anybody else who knows what's going on with some of these cases.
They appear to be right. I'm just I'm just saying I'm just I'm just I'm trying to acknowledge where we've come. It is a corner. It is astounding. Right. I don't think I suspect if I had shown you a picture of Dave Grush testifying under oath with the former inspector general, the intelligence committee seeing right behind him.
Four years ago when you wrote that tweet, I you would you probably thought I was crazy. The name. The nothing will happen was not that nothing would happen. It was more than nothing would happen in terms of getting evidence that aliens are visiting, which is the thing they really want. I'm actually really happy that we've got all this progress. And we've got this these investigations and the arrows doing a lot of work. You have the spending millions of dollars on investigating it. And hopefully they will release their information.
But I think it kind of speaks to the broader problem with with your apology is that it's always been a bit of a battle between hard evidence, hard data and cool stories.
And having people come forward and say, I worked on a program in the six days that did crash retrieval. I don't think it's really going to move the needle very much unless they can actually produce some evidence of something.
I'll take give you two points that maybe maybe give us a little bit of hope to really address your point. And I think Kuzlowski has said and the quote here is.
And he's plunged to release them. Now I'm skeptical, right? I know how the government works. They don't release anything. They don't have to. But he said this. So just to just kind of kind of address your point. Maybe we'll see some more. I don't know.
I think that's notable. And then secondarily, Dr. Kuzlowski and his hearing said that at least two multiple first hand witnesses have gone arrow.
When this is a lot to the unreported UAP programs. That's that that was the question from Jill. Anyway, we can go down that. I'm just I'm just saying like, you know, the story of UFOs, right? It's okay. There's something coming. But there is. We'll see. But there is some chatter about.
Mick, how do you to Merrick's point? There has been a lot of momentum if you're just tracking social consensus hype around this stuff. I mean, I run a YouTube channel that is, you know, really surrounds this topic, particularly. I've seen a lot of interesting.
I think it's something that was maybe bubbling beneath the surface and it's just been kind of allowed to come out. The New York Times story basically opened the flood gates. It was something that gave the lidacy, gave it allowed people to talk about it. I've had other journalists to talk about it. And when she gets that going, it becomes this kind of feedback loop.
Perhaps without the stigma that you had before. And if there are things like un-engly SAP programs, which you know, I wouldn't rule out, of course, you know, it's entirely possible that people were running crash retrieval programs for things that they thought were were UFOs, you know, back in the back in the day.
Yeah, church commission. Yeah, they, something like that where we can actually get these things out. And I've been really enthusiastic about people like David Grush testifying and I wish he would come out and actually say more.
Because I want this to come into the sunlight. I want to know what's actually going on.
Well, if that's your goal, that's I think the goal of everybody here. And we, yeah, we love I would love for this to either be falsified for forever or.
No, I'm not having to happen.
Well, I would say you can prove it's true. I think there's not a lot of daylight probably between us where like I think whatever is going on is interesting.
If it's mass social psychosis, a coordinated side up, I think those are extremely interesting because I think it's the best side up, maybe of all time.
Guys, we can talk about this for hours of that even get I will say the commentary direct commentary from Rubio Gallagher, Kirk McConnell, former Senate staffer.
He said that on camera. That's fascinating. So if it's mass psychosis and people in high positions and government are saying yes, I was on a retrieval program, then we have a major, major problem because they're just fantasists out there that are in important positions.
The other thing I would say is say this is all unacknowledged, deep black programs. I find that fascinating too.
I'm not everybody who's in government or in the military is going to be on the level.
Well, the thing that I've found because I've met all these people deep inside the government post doing this show, they are often more conspiratorial than people who are civil side.
Mick, can I put you on the spot actually?
Just curious, when Grush says under oath, I had the firsthand people go to the Inspector General to submit a complaint.
I talked to a congressional source told me I asked point blank, what's your confidence level in the existence of such programs?
The answer was hovering around 100%. What am I, as an analyst, supposed to do with that? What do you think?
I wouldn't be surprised if there was such programs.
I mean, this is something I've been saying for a while.
I'm sorry, I let it's NHI. It's non-human intelligence.
It's quite clear from people I don't begrudge that people do actually believe these things happen.
No idea, I'm not really familiar with what the Inspector General does, but
If there are any special access programs, I'd be happy to say them like this.
I hope it doesn't, but I think all we can hope for really is to get more sunlight on it.
Maybe, I don't know, but his saffron did it. Some saffron did it.
Well, I think, okay, this is great.
I think we should get in due, because this is all dealing with sort of social proof, which does carry a lot of people.
That's where I think both of you add really tremendous, unique value.
You have eyewitnesses, David Fraver, who you mentioned, who is really, I think, a source of belief for a lot of people, kind of proxy belief,
because he's a very serious sounding guy. I mean, you heard him on Rogan and like, I think he was tasked with defending L.A.
Actually, around 9-11. I don't know if you're familiar with that.
I didn't know that. Yeah, because it was like unclear how many planes were going to be.
I'm also going to have to take and just kick it off.
Ah, I knew it.
I'm too honest for my own good.
Well, I don't even see who won that.
Mick said he's going to go with paper and I went with scissors. So here we are.
Yeah. So, but seriously, please jump in if, if, you know, if I missed anything.
And I think they're setting out for a rock.
And it is over the course of, I think, a week, according to one of the witnesses, the key witness Kevin Day.
Occasionally, if I understand right, they, you know, they're tracking them coming from above 80,000 feet, zipping down, and to the surface of the ocean, or they'd hover around 28,000 feet.
I've only seen 20,000 feet.
All the interviews I've seen, I think he wrote it down, and he kind of memorialized it in a little bit of novella.
I did find this interesting.
I mean, you have objects.
I mean, you sanitize your airspace, and you want to know what's out there.
And so they have these two jets, if I understand correctly.
No, I don't know if you guys have seen that, but that is...
I found very interesting.
No, I'm sorry. Good point.
And then it's... I think it's called a tooth, wait a minute.
I'm just going to write that 20,000 feet.
I'm just trying to be clear.
I think Fraver himself, as I actually said, that when they arrived,
I think they was pretty quick.
I'll literally leave it at...
I would think probably Fraver, because there's some more experience, pilot.
I'm acknowledging that there's a dispute there, and that's fine.
Just a big discotency, I think.
Well, one other thing I think to discuss is just this idea that this was caught by many sensors.
Yeah, I think it's a bit of an issue.
...the missile defense program, I'm sure, told him that they saw it later.
I think we can get an overall sense that something happened.
Because I've seen a video of you suggesting it might have been a seagull.
I don't think it was a seagull.
I suggested that when Fred was looking down, it might have been a variety of things that he might have seen looking down, like white caps and boats and things and seagulls were...
I think he said, I think the code was...
One of the things I said.
I think he said, I hate to say this, but there would have been seagulls out there.
Like, I actually looked this up. Seagulls really don't go.
I'm not an ornithologist.
I don't think you can find an inter-team.
I think it was lying about that particular case.
I think then he actually thought that might have been a reasonable explanation,
And I think to a degree, the seagull explanation has become like the modern swamp gas.
So I get seagull comments almost every day.
I mean, I got it.
If it was a seagull, I don't think you would have made that mistake.
I've cut back a lot on my alcohol consumption over the last few years.
Can I just quickly back up maybe?
But there's another... I believe it's Squadra Commander from a Marine Corps Squadron
Curth, I think is his name.
I think because of fuel issues, I'm not sure.
Yeah, I wish that we'd get more witnesses coming forward.
I think it's difficult now because it's literally 20 years since this happened.
But, you know, I think once you've got past the initial year or so of people remembering things,
I think there were two radar systems.
Which I think that's when you had the E2 Hawkeye and then the Princeton.
And yeah, I'm going to go get it.
I'm guessing like an hour or two after.
I'm, I'm, it's not clear.
And they said they don't want to, I think I asked Kevin about it.
And I, I guess don't remember.
I'm not sure.
I think there was some high-winded accounts from the,
But I don't think they're not seen really come forward.
Interesting piece of information, which I'll just speculate on.
which I always tell you.
I was reading it on the way here.
I appreciate that.
That's, yeah, just when it comes to, I think, yes,
I know, I can say with certainty that the,
I think the Nimitz is a nuclear power carrier.
I don't know about the weapons and that's, that's out of my expertise.
Well, I'm a big Robert Hastings fan.
I think Hastings is very, it is a tangent we can, you know,
But I think Hastings is pretty solid.
I mixed background, I was saying.
I think, I was listening to his books.
But I think he's actually aliens.
Well, I got to give him credit.
I mean, he's compiled and from a, I take an intelligence analysis approach to this topic.
I mean, it'll, it'll, it's extraordinary.
It's a whole other level, but I think it's important for establishing some sort of priors on this stuff,
I want to be as much of kind of a non-factor and just, you know, honest judge,
But my own kind of way I process this is, I usually think these things are prosaic or explainable way.
I can explain it a way.
But I think in the case of nuclear, that might be the exception.
Just because I think you have this repeatable, you know, they say science needs to be repeatable,
But Nimitz, I believe, the video itself was kind of floating around on Reddit,
And you can still access it via the, I've got a dog, the wave on machine.
So there's actually a live link to this from, I think, I'm not sure it's out there when, like, 2010 or something.
I did a little digging into this, and it could quickly just make a point here.
And then, Mick, I got, I love this.
So, in December of 2017, I think, to the Star's Academy,
put out an interview with, I think it's Commander Alex Dietrich.
Right? I have to say a bit more context about what I was saying.
No, I see. It's metabunk post 84, December 30th, 2017.
I see. I'm trying to be moving forward.
So, I just want to be caught, like, right, debunking can, can, I think, can really go wrong,
I assume, right?
I mean, I'm not accusing you of a sermon.
So, it's just something I wanted to bring up.
Well, so, Mary knows, I think it's some kind of distant aircraft.
And that's one of the first videos that I analyzed, and I went through it frame by frame.
And I showed fairly conclusively that all those things are just camera movement.
No, I don't think so.
Maybe the same thing, but I think it's probably a different thing.
I don't think shows any, like, a bounce physics or anything like that.
I think it's some type of distance aircraft that's flying away, but as Mark will explain later, there are issues with determining what type of aircraft it is.
I'd probably, without the eyewitness accounts, I probably would have...
And I'll just just counter Mick, or just to maybe respond, I'm very much on the opposite of the spectrum.
I'm glad we started with this case because ruling out a plane is probably the easiest thing we can do today.
Like it is pretty simple, didn't I?
So, look, I mean, it is fascinating.
I have, based on the analysis that, and it's not just me, but the analysis that some of my colleagues, and one of them, as you know,
And I would say, I'll speak for myself, but I have fairly high confidence that that was a tick-tock shape.
I think the Dietrich and Fraver encounter sounds by itself as being a really interesting event.
It's the I-Winter's account, then do it.
Having this video as well, kind of lend some credence to those I-Winter's accounts.
So Mick, can I just quickly say, this video's not commencing to folks on its own.
And I think my job here today is to make it convincing, and thank you for giving me the opportunity,
because I think we have some compelling data to show.
Well, the final other thing that I'll say about this case, which I find interesting, is I think a new Raytheon Flier system had just been installed before detection.
And Raytheon, I think, came out with a statement, because they were like,
And Raytheon was like, we're not responsible for what you detect with our system, which I found very interesting as well.
Yeah, I think they just upgraded the system, upgraded the software perhaps.
I mean, this wasn't known probably, right?
So nobody knew about this until, I mean, 2007 people didn't know about it.
I think it was 2015 when Fraver started talking on, like, Viter-Pada, like, podcast.
I think it was CGI or something like that.
CGI, I think so.
I don't know.
When I hear that, my mind goes to like, they were trying to see if you could possibly recreate it.
Yeah, I think what happened there was that it was just basically a site where you could upload stuff.
I strongly doubt.
There are allegations from some of the sailors aboard the Princeton, I think, that people in suits landed in helicopters and took all the radar data.
I don't know what to make of that.
I think he's mentioned that.
I don't...
I apologize.
I just don't know.
I know Fraver has been used.
I think PJs.
I need to be careful.
I don't know how to make it that.
I don't know what to make of that.
I'm not looking at any sample.
I have the stories very quite a lot.
I think you guys will see this.
Now, I originally thought this was infrared and this is what makes me...
I suppose there's going to be a long-boring part, I guess.
And so I...
I can't remember.
I think it's five-up.
And the analysis I did on there, using all the angles and everything,
So I think what we're actually looking at here is the camera was tracking something
And I wouldn't be surprised because it's only a partial loss loss of lock.
I don't think, when you see it losing lock,
Can I just say, we're getting so in the weeds.
And I think part of, I just want to say just maybe for the audience,
that part of the reason that I'm doing this is I want to engage more people.
I want more people mathematically scientifically and client folks to grapple with this stuff.
That's why I write these articles.
I'm trying to encourage interests.
I am 100% agree.
But I really just want to convey that.
That's probably the whole problem here between you and I is just you and me.
I mean, this is like years of work that we pray.
So I got to give them credit and get in the Christmas world as well.
I've talked to an active duty wizard serving now.
And he said, it's a finicky, I sent you the emails, right?
And I made a point.
I don't know what to make of that.
What I like about this is I feel like both of you are being very reasonable.
And if anything, I'm more confused and I help you with.
You know, I really, I mean, in my mind, the assessment there might be like the net assessment,
If you're passionate about exploring unconventional ideas and want to dive even deeper into our content, I invite you to join our walk today head over to walk.com slash American Alchemy premium to become a premium member today.
Oh, yeah, I really want to show you the kind of what what road and and Mick.
You know, you know, this, this is the video that you still have up and I got a bone to pick with you, right? Cause video still up and that it's clearly not an error.
I mean, let's describe what's talking about.
I think you said on a podcast that it's probably 50 to 100 miles away.
Yeah, I think this video on me is like what do you know what it was like 20?
Yeah, I just think it's still up there and I think that's that's misinformation.
I have the description of the video on there.
I think it's very misleading to have that video still up there.
That thing's what I do.
Originally, I had done this analysis.
And so I was saying like what it might look like.
And I picked an airliner because that's what I'm going to use to from the Chilean case.
I was still kind of maybe biased by that Chilean case.
And I kind of did a little side by side comparison and it looks somewhat similar.
I think the basic analysis is right.
And I can maybe change the title of it.
I can't say my point right?
And I think it's not the key point.
I didn't think that's the description of the video.
I'm trying to do this for the camera.
Yeah, I think you can there.
I think the problem with this video is that it's a super low resolution video.
I mean, that's a similar...
Yeah, I don't think you're just flying at that angle.
No, I don't think...
I think while we're looking at it...
I've shown you this.
I feel it's kind of a fool's errand because there is not enough brain cells in that video to determine...
You see what I'm probably out of focus.
Yeah, I see it tilt.
I think with the tic-tac model.
And I owe credit to...
I think somebody...
I'm on...
I think his name was Paul, but he did very simple edits.
And I just...
I need to quickly add that both Commander Fraver and the Tenet Commander...
I mean, is it Lonnie's Amora?
This image here, I think, is very misleading.
I think it's basically being that you've tweaked the amount of brightness
So contrast, I think, is probably pretty obvious.
I think he turned it up.
Again, I didn't do this.
I'm not sure, actually.
I'm not an opt-in.
I'm not sure if that's a filter.
I'm sure.
I didn't do this.
And this is the first time I'm really presenting this.
I'm just saying...
I don't think we can really doubt.
I have a couple more.
I used mix.
So I...
I mean, it's not a plane, guys.
I wish I did.
And I did that for you, Marissa.
And I...
You know what I'm saying about...
And I'll say one thing.
I'm glad you're finally getting paid.
I don't know who's paying you, but...
So when I can't name.
I mean, that's sincerely...
I appreciate it.
Consistent criticism that I had to like...
And I had to write all this software to do it.
And then I wrote this nice long video.
Oh, God, you know, I win this account.
I win this account.
I was so incredible.
I was asking you to give me eight plant any plant.
I don't care.
How can I make...
I'm mad.
Well, what I guess, Mick,
I think what would be interesting.
Which I kind of interpreted as being like a plane turning.
I sent you the video for a long time.
I don't know.
I don't know.
So, you know, I think what I would say is
I feel comfortable doing it.
I think 100% ruling out things is a huge mistake
I think of the Chilean case.
I'm sure it was another plane.
I'm going to the next plane.
I think...
I hope it didn't out you.
No, well, I'm talking about the difference between like the true heading, the ground heading and the air heading.
That was the thing I sent you years ago.
Oh, I'm upset you gotcha.
I'd be curious to see if he has said other, but everything that I've seen is,
I don't think like this is the only solution here.
I wouldn't really tell.
I don't know the sound.
I think, you know, like I said before, my analysis of these videos is two parts.
And I definitely do anything amazing.
I don't think drifting south at 100 knots is doing something amazing.
I don't know.
I know.
I think we should move on.
This is a great, I love it.
And I think there are a lot of open questions.
And so, I don't really, I don't really out these options, but I don't think you should also run out of plane.
So, I think they do switch between black, hard and white, but what we're looking at here is the surface of the ocean, and we see this object, and the object appears to be colder than the surface of the ocean, which is very unusual for a powered craft.
I've done some reconstructions where it's about 16 knots.
And I just interviewed Navy fighter pilot Ryan Graves who testified before Congress also under oath.
I mean, they're super close.
I think we would, I'm very confident that we would not have Arrow come out with this assessment at the recent hearing
And I have a major bone to pick with Arrow.
I don't know if this is part of the old guard, the previous director who I think has rumbled a lot of people the wrong way.
Rub me, I had a long discussion with him.
So I think that's a massive oversight.
I have a major bone to pick with arrow about that because Ryan just came out on your show and are on your discussion said that this was part of,
and I think you said it previously, but shocker. This was part of, this was one of four objects.
So I don't think we know we would be having a very different discussion of arrow to actually done their job.
I don't know who named it.
So I think Ryan has said, Lieutenant Graves has said, all the Pentagon did is debunk the name, which is the Pentagon.
I think the Pentagon itself gave the video.
So I, you know, look, I want to just be very clear.
That's where they are reached, I think.
Well, I don't think they're stumped by parallax.
I mean, the pilots are stumped by parliots all the time.
It's equivalent, I think, of over 2,000 millimeters SLR.
Yeah, I just mean eyewitnesses, they're actively looking.
That's what I mean, not eyewitnesses and that they're seeing the object.
Ron Graves said he'd be distracted looking at the gimbal video, at least I'm sure he must have seen this one as well.
And sorry, Ryan, if you're watching, I think he's annoyed at me because he paid me.
And when your buddy coming out, when they're going to come out and talk, I would love that.
I'll do an interview with you.
But again, I cannot stress enough.
I'd love to hear him expound or kind of expand rather on the formation.
What I mean, your point here is that you don't think he's doing anything amazing in this video.
I'm just saying that's why we really need to hear from.
But I really want to hear about the formation.
And arrow, I'm going to put on my old, my ex-government hat here.
I mean, through the run.
I mean, and all they said was it a piece of me going, I'll tell you exactly why.
I'll do my best.
Yeah, I'm going to have Brian right after this and say we should do something.
I kind of wrapped around and I think it doesn't show the, it doesn't show the...
I did.
I'm pretty confident it was right before.
No, I don't think there's much.
I'll just...
I should release the analysis.
I don't see why they wouldn't have done that.
I mean, they even got the year wrong in this slide.
I mean, I have a major bone to pick with the analytic side of it.
I'm optimistic that the new director will change around.
I think, you know, even I both know that arrow have done said some things that are incorrect.
Basically, it was astounding, and I don't need to get into it.
I think he phoned it in.
I think he was closer retirement.
I don't know.
I think he was more there as a standing of the organization rather than being an analyst himself.
I hope not.
Well, I do want to say it's interesting that I was just on the tick-tack video.
He was flying a commercial flight over an Ellis testing range and he saw that tick-tack that I showed you guys.
I'll play the video, but why prosaically explain?
And when you take a video, I bet it doesn't show up on the video.
I mean, the way in which that didn't comport at all with the framer eye witness account is it wasn't going right next to the water.
I mean, that's somewhat of a biochemical reductionist view of like the way we see things.
Yeah, I think that's fair.
I think you'd have to get into kind of trippy philosophical discussions around widening the doors of perception
I mean, that a lot of pretty well respected philosophers and people like Aldous Huxley, William James.
I mean, let's just go for it.
And I already mentioned this.
I'm going to quote, right?
I'll quickly wrap up Kirkpatrick.
I think Ryan mentioned this on your discussion, but he's flying along and noticed something
He's flying, I guess, somewhere in a position to see his tail and he said, yeah, dude, that
Donald Trump has said, I've had Air Force pilots.
I think there are a lot of reasons for this consistency.
I think there's two reasons why we see spheres.
So there were really interesting government reports that the earliest known assessment, I think
was a 48 and I credit to John Greenwell for putting it on his site and his project sign
I think it was late 48, but it said that the most commonly reported shapes or morphologies
I don't want to disagree.
Yeah, I think we can wrap up here, absolutely.
I want to get into contemporary stuff too, but do you think this is definitely worth
I think this might be the most compelling.
So, should I set it up real quick?
I think VFA 11, the Red Rippers.
Just like the TickTack incident, they are, I believe this is a pre-deployment, workup
I think what I told you was a training video.
I don't remember now, but...
Come on, I asked Susan GoFast.
I'm just telling you what she told me.
I mean, don't take that.
So were I?
I met Kirkpatrick in person and I was there at that incident and she was attached at
I think it's George Mason University.
So I was there.
I just happened to be in DC for other business and I went and had a chat with Kirkpatrick
I mean, he ran the background.
I mean, let's be a reason why she's there.
So I mean, the simplest reason is that she's there so that he doesn't say things that
I would like him to say things that he's not supposed to say.
I probably would.
I probably would.
I've been around a lot of senior government.
Like, I have that is unique.
I'm sorry.
I'm going to have to hear what the explanation is.
And I still like a couple of years ago.
Did she say I think this video?
I might say a lot with that thing.
I doubt she would answer mine as well.
So, I guess it's probably, you know, you set this up, right?
I think again we've got two aspects of it.
The analysis I've done suggests that it might actually be a camera artifact rather than
I know.
I don't know.
They don't know what I'm talking about when I say it.
If you turn your head, I see it.
And that's what's happening, I think, in this miniatur.
And the married is not like a glare, so I'm going to call it an optical effect.
I think there's enough evidence in that that's actually happening.
And the reason I think that is that if you do this analysis with a lines of sight, you
by Ryan Graves, I think.
I think it started out.
I think 6 to 8 is the current estimate of the distance.
I say, I say, I put that you've seen this before, but it's quite simple.
And I've looped you in with, I think, several of the top experts in the world.
I can take it.
I can take it.
I can take it.
So the problem is, I'm on team Ackham here and I'm on all the data lines.
I said, Ackham, you're right.
Can I bring my analytic kind of perspective to this real question?
Because I don't have to account for an extraordinary amount of malfunctions and never before seen
I would just again just count entities and say like, I have one.
I mean, it's not mine.
I think Ackham would be rolling in his grave if it was used in a rationalist framework
And so I think the fact that he probably wouldn't mind invoking angels.
I mean, I mean, I'm not going to say that this was a very bright hypothesis.
No, I'm just, just, just, just, just, just, no, no, fair enough.
No, I, that's fair enough.
So, maybe I'll hear, if, if, if, I'll be right, maybe I'll go down, he says, that's interesting.
So, let me just put on my analytic hat real quick and bear with me, I'll do this as quickly
as I can.
You mentioned the Theodole, the tracking, so in the 1940s, I'm going to list several cases
He actually goes on to say, I'm a believer in flying saucers, the most kind of credentialed
I see mixed rolling his eyes.
I'm just, I'm reporting with what people have, have said.
I'll finish up.
Well, I have to say what the stuff is.
If these witnesses are close enough to absorb wobbling, I think they can see the shape,
62 students, see Silver Disk, pictures, identical, this disc is surrounded by this, I'm not
What I'm saying is you have this extraordinary amount of failures never before seen an artifact
I think this is...
Everything that I've ever hypothesized is if everything has to happen all at the same
I don't know what's on the radar.
I don't know.
I mean, we can...
Yes, I agree with it.
I'm not following.
Oh, I think it is.
Oh, I think it is.
Oh, I think it is.
No, I don't think this is a balloon.
No, I didn't say no.
I mean, that doesn't...
I don't know if you ever see it.
I mean, we have a ton of...
I don't know if we can play it here, but...
And I've got a couple other videos there that maybe we can
I think you used that word a little bit soon, much.
I said, this isn't remarkable.
I will let the viewers, when we, when we, maybe we can add it,
you know, put this in, but I really want to show people what,
I think more importantly, let's just bottom line this.
Yeah, I've seen it.
I don't believe it means just the experts.
I won't go on the record.
I had a Zoom call with one of those individuals.
I sent you.
I can't, unfortunately.
And I had a Zoom call.
So I'm military.
I don't want to be the way too much.
We talked to two of the, like I think it's fair to say,
The one I talked to and to your point about why I won't
And he said, I'm intrigued by this.
I sent you an email.
I don't want to get involved in this, but highly credentialed, but just the stigma is
And I, you may have the aperture of the camera.
When Mick talks, I really want to show people what this looks like.
And that's when, and I'm not a scientist, but I've read enough of the, and this is part
of why I want people to get engaged.
And sorry, I disagree.
I don't think it is Blooming.
And then we had here, I'll just, I'll just leave it at this.
And I will read it.
I'll read it.
I think a D-roll axis of the payload would not make this phenomenon of rotation.
I think in air-to-air flier imagery.
I think really he, you're interpreting things that he told you.
No, no, no, no, no, I'm talking about the government expert.
I'm directly calling it, let me quote it to him.
He said to me, I would not want my response sent out as I am government.
I mean, it might be seen as an expert official response rather than an opinion based upon
I just wanted to point to some things out that others may have missed.
Well, I'm reading what he said.
I guess specifically, you know, to Merrick's glare point, you mentioned, okay, that's probably
That's what I was saying.
Cause I looped you and all the experts.
I looped you in a lot of emails.
I was the email asking me if I can read.
I thought you're bringing somebody in new to the table.
to, to include him like he said, like he, and I, he says, I gave you this as a mission
I now regret any discussion with him.
I, I'm putting out, I believe that this is more important than the stigma.
I know you're eager for aerated a bunk this because you thought they were doing, um,
Well, I was only going to work here.
There's a couple of years, I guess.
I see Ogwoodia, like when you talk about, let's stay on, let's stay on gimbal.
I think Ogwoodia has the, the, um, SCU, the, the coalition first of, uh, yeah, they
I think that's, that's a stretch.
I mean, it was, it was common.
Based on them being a narrow field of zoom, uh, I sent this to you years ago, narrow
I never see how that can be determined from what we're saying on screen.
I just, yeah.
One other, one of the factors I want to introduce is that possibly this was also involved
I put it in the slides, but he's recreated this and it's kind of a V shape formation.
I think what we see here is some kind of optical effect and there's rotation because of
Bottom line is I think we need to hear from, hopefully from the back.
Right now, you said you've, I talked to an anonymous expert, said, well, I'm going to
I shared you, I sent you the email to you.
Well, you know, I, I do, I loop you into it.
I brought all the experts to you.
Like come forward and I won't laugh at you.
I mean, I don't think, I don't think so.
I'm so afraid of being, being, like, probably an anonymous.
I'll, I'll kind of strom in both the arguments.
I think on Merrick Gearside, I think we need more of these people to come forward.
And then on, on your side, Mick, I think you probably have to take prima facia, you know,
I mean, they have to, I mean, the idea that it's an F-18.
like, I'm in David Freibout, like, kind of discuss this hypothesis and he said the camera
So you think it's like, and then that same guy who, you know, presumably, I mean, we
When the pilot, when the pilot says, and the lottery, I think you're a little bit of
He said, is that, I don't know, is that LNS dude?
Is that, that is the only other guy I said, yeah, that is ours.
I think this is a, wait, so let me just,
I can't wrap my head, I hope I'm like,
If it's malfunctioning, maybe I don't,
I just find that hard to believe.
Well, we can, we can go, I know we have to wrap up
and I'm sorry.
I don't know if I can light-list it.
Mick knows what I mean.
I can explain why we have to destroy them.
So yeah, I know.
I know.
this is so, I, it hurts me to,
I, we modeled it out and it's just like this super chill.
I believe 2006.
and I have some minus three degrees of source.
Sorry, I don't fall.
I'm just using it to show that there's actually
I hope you can maybe,
I would like to encourage anybody out there
I think that's the thing.
I mean, experts are actually speak on the right.
I know.
I think we can't go through all these.
I'm just assuming that's something that's 30 miles away.
I think it's your patriotic duty to come out.
I agree.
In fact, it gets smaller and I have a video.
I can show it.
So, Raytheon, I believe it looks like they have
Glared, I sorry.
I'm telling you, like,
I'm just a bi-sting right now.
I'm open to both of you guys being right.
I think it's kind of scary
I mean, I don't know.
I don't think so, it's a glare.
I don't take the effect.
I don't think there's any evidence of that.
I'm going off with the people who are experts on this.
He was talking, I'm pretty sure he was talking about
and there was something I wanted to talk to you more,
I know that this was the second expert.
These call, I think, optical transfer function
So, I'm...
And these are details that we, I think,
So, I'm a little skeptical,
oh, if it's not, I got you here.
So that was the easiest way I'm demonstrating.
So, since then, I've been doing it
but I don't think he's just being disproven.
I don't know.
I've got a video of that happening.
And I'm sure it was just a lead after because there's...
I've heard people say that.
I mean, I don't think that's what happened
I think it's probably more to do with the internal optics.
I've got a camera that gives a very similar shaped glare
I was joking.
Oh my God, you realize I was joking, right?
I see it on the edge of the track.
I have a two-minute long video of it.
I want to...
I want to follow up with any videos that show the jagged.
I just want to quickly reiterate how...
I'm only saying it is a...
I witness accounts, right?
Well, I think if you guys are training for war,
When I spoke to Ryan Gray...
I kind of leaves aliens then.
Well, I think it leaves aliens.
I'm sorry.
I picked the ones that are...
I'm normally don't find myself kind of
I think of Skunk Works projects currently are classified.
I just spoke to Ryan Graves.
So I don't know.
I think it's possible that the radar hits
I would have said that thing.
So now I don't understand the details,
because of the stigma that I'm perpetuating.
I think we actually do need more input.
I would be really good if that was...
I've tried to contact Raytheon,
It's, I see it over and over and over again.
but yeah, I'm skeptical
was released by, I believe, George Napp and Jeremy Corvall.
I think it's mixed, turned.
Yeah, well, I'm not, I should have familiar with it,
but I'll give you my take on it.
And I think, at the end of it,
I think it actually looks more like it's actually going...
There was a guy, I think,
I published it on Twitter
I think it appears to be moving northly
But I think...
I don't know what it is,
but I think my best guess is that it's a strong heat source
Can I...
And I think another one kind of cruises me.
I think at one point I counted 10, 12.
I'd accounted for a lot, right, on that radar footage.
I mean, this is...
I looked at a lot of defalcishs, Flierbitt,
Oh, I didn't even know that.
I mean, we looked at...
Like, you know what I'm talking about.
But I think this is a much more distant object in a zoom,
That's a line that I drew.
Yeah, I see quite a bit of sky underneath that horizon.
I don't.
And I see a lot of ocean above your line.
I see an enormous amount of ocean above.
And if you go down to the next one, I zoomed in on one section.
I mean, there's clearly ocean above it.
So, the implication, as Tim mentioned recently, and I think some of the folks that were on the bridge
I don't know what they were.
If you look at, I don't know if this is diagnostic,
I'm not saying that it is.
But we're working under the assumption, I think,
I just tweeted earlier today about how they once
I looked at a lot of infrared imagery now
and I've seen nothing.
I think we should move on.
I think you mentioned there's some video.
I will say just quickly,
And I bring that up because there's a series
on, I think, the National Geographic, unidentified,
And I spliced the interview together.
yeah, I've seen these lighted luminous orbs spheres going into the water.
I have got nothing out.
I told I said we should all do a boat trip out there.
I think that's interesting, right?
Yeah, but it's just a lot of I win his accounts.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
And I'm sure they're making mistakes still.
I mean, go fast.
I'm going to go fast.
I'm going to go fast.
So within this video, I don't actually.
I just throw my PC on the table here.
I think that's just a balloon or a bunch of balloons
I just think if you're.
Remember I sent you the video.
But I put this in sit-rek and you can see that the range indicator is like, you know, bullshit basically.
So I'd love to see that because.
I don't know how I look at triangle shape.
This isn't infrared, I think.
I mean, you asked me to do it in sit-rek, so I did.
Yeah, so what I don't think it does.
I think the results show that the range data is very accurate.
This is made in the weirdest video I've seen.
I just think if your balloons and you're operating these systems at, you know, restricted airspace,
I don't think it was...
You know, I had no idea.
Yeah, I mean, do you want to play it again?
Yeah, no, I mean, it's quite clear, right?
I like it removing.
Well, that'll probably cost me some Twitter followers. Great, I agree. I don't have any gestures.
There are people who won't agree. No, I can see you, for example.
I mean, it's clear. I agree with the vast radio mix work.
And I'm just saying quote unquote because nobody has any good, even you have to admit, Mick,
I believe that I'm shy. I'm sure.
I don't know the data, but my strong bias would be that there are more sightings.
I'll push back slightly, Mick.
But I think you might be pushing this narrative a little too far because it really,
I got sent one the other day and tracked down the actual planes.
And I think the quote is, I've worked in aviation for a very long time.
And I know what a weather balloon looks like.
I got nothing, guys.
I really...
It's... I don't know.
I guess it's a balloon and some like, how it affects in the image of that.
I got nothing.
I personally find this interesting because my Occam's razor belief generally is that it's, you know, prosaically explainable way.
The thing I hold out, you know, interest in is when the sighting occurs around a nuclear facility.
I find it very fascinating that there is a town next to the Fukushima Prefecture in Japan called Yeno,
And so if I had to, you know, again, steal man the UFO position, it would be around this nuclear connection.
And this I find interesting because you have UAP activity around this nuclear power plant.
And I'll just quickly say, Jesse, your point, the nuclear connection is extraordinary.
And I've written about it.
No, I mean, it's amazing.
Some with Arrow, I think there's a lot of reporting bias.
I think they were either supposed to plan or something else.
But I can't remember what they were exactly, but that was resolved, as I recall.
I'd love to resolve.
Yeah, that was the start of their nuclear program is what I've heard.
And so I don't know.
I was listening to the book on the way here at U.F.R. News.
Because that's, I told you you read that.
And if you meet, like I actually get the sense from you.
I don't think you're a liar at all.
I think you're very, no, I mean it.
I really, I get this like clear attention to detail, like good earnest vibe.
And that's the same vibe I get from Robert A. Sings.
In fact, like the way I connected with Robert A. Sings.
I think he was lying in the book.
No, I'm not, I'm not accusing him of that.
I mean, you should meet him.
This is how I got in touch with him.
I made my piece with David Grush.
And I screwed it up.
And I overstated the case.
I was like, you know, UFOs and nukes, you have, you know, over a hundred.
And I go misalers.
And I just dispersed the program.
But I love it.
I don't remember the exact number.
I mean, the Colorado sightings, right?
And I've met some, I met Robert Salis at Malmstrom in 1967.
And I've also met Mario Woods, who was stationed at, you know, South Dakota,
So I do find that compelling.
Just to be clear, Ruby was very clearly leaning towards, I trust them.
Yeah, but I think the more you go into, like, you know, highly competent, you know,
Spectra General, and say I was part of a I was part of a reverse engineering program.
There can be weird people, but there's a different level of I was on this program.
I was on the weird people.
I worked on this NHI craft.
Can I go?
raises up and it will eventually go over them the other lights I don't know they were kind of
orange looking yeah i'm not sure what they they were could be helicopters could be drones if
they're landing lights Mick can we test this right because if I were what yeah we could
I'm just saying like because we know where this would we know what facility this was yeah
other people commenting I have seven videos of them from last night around 30 minutes of good video
I'm an afel north carolina the two mean ones were in red were a red and blue one the blue one
was amazing to watch pulsate grow 5x larger than shrink back to size I don't know people post videos
will post videos of lights in the sky and think that the you are I'm glad he's like to play your song
what I find more compelling maybe than this is I'll just be very quick the Langley incursions view
there's a there's a witness video where the guy zooms out and you can see I don't know 10 15
and more expert should weigh in that's the way I think that's the takeaway please if you're
thing should we should we play this I look I I always do a from the new Jersey I'll just like
I think it's a flat by dancing there's there's very much that maybe so
you think Colorado 2019 2020 was a flat out very much so can I read a couple emails or do we
do we have to go emails quick okay so thanks to Doug Johnson I'll I'll make this very quick
50 sheriff I mean 30 exactly hold on 30 to 50 flying independently of each other with a larger
you have these little saucers flying out of a mothership I don't know here's the hypothesis for
I'll be very quick canine trooper from Kansas uh he had these flow fly right over his head he said
calm all right I win this counts great video for what we need Merrick Mick this was awesome I
appreciate you guys both things you're doing this Mick thank you yeah it is this is great I mean
you guys were I felt like you know mostly pretty civil and cool with each other and I think I think
I enjoy this very much I enjoy solving cases and you might investigating them and if he turns out
that I'm wrong about things that would be really interesting you'll buy me a grid and if gimbals
debunk I'm not you bear and I I have a bet I have a bet that I guess we never result we were talking
about this before the show I bet you $10,000 which is insane because I gave you one-to-one odds and
moved that number from 10,000 to 1,000 I just like more reasonable bets because they took
for it's legal I think it's an unreasonable bet for me on it's like a joke for me I'm giving you
a part of that and it's being hooked on do well I guess you you want to play it Nick and we can
whether it's is this a real video is it's something that someone's someone's faked uh it's I think
guy what was it it was sent anonymously now i'm just
I'm just clicking a number yeah it was sent by a third party uh to use nation not not by Jake
the egg i guess it's one of the ones that crops up but it's not like a tiktok it's not like
they're flying saucer it's an egg i did spend a little bit of time trying to replicate it as
i made a little uh egg in a little sling so i've got like the whole uh the kebudo always it you know
kind of led me to think it's probably not a scale model i don't think he's actually an egg
shaped thing i think it's probably something larger i think it might actually be from a helicop
not a lot to go by interesting though oh and the back story of course is very interesting i
that which was kind of an interesting mixture of things i think you know we've got this this you know
yeah what i do find interesting is and again i'm again i try to bring a bit of an analytic
perspective but there's a gentleman named eric taber who went to arrow uh i don't know if
um an egg shaped craft being retrieved and i believe this is at area 51 um i don't believe he
was a firsthand witness so take it as you will but again um that that shape does come up i agree
a really good video and then if it's not you know obviously not yeah i guess that's all like all
hard to see i think what was the low observability and uh transmitting travel it's doing none of these
none of these things uh so it's hard to kind of classify this even as a uap i guess this is the
who you know is i believe he was a mechanic on the helicopter and not the pilot i'm not sure
yet i would be i think we might be learning more about that mc no okay that's that's good yeah but you
you know i feel like ufo world took a bit of a hard left turn away from cartesian space you know aliens
cult practice is such something what i don't know guys feel about that
people are reaching for more interesting things i don't know but it was weird definitely
what do you think marit? i agree it's a shift um again i you know i focused on the nuts and bolts
aspect i will say just my own personal progression i i was i've been very open about this i was
deeply skeptical of uofos uh you i missed the 2017 story i think i mentioned this in in the
longer version but i've gone through a few of my own mini ontological shocks throughout this
journey right and um and and and you know again i'm skeptical of of everything i see just
just kind of right off the bat i i wouldn't need to see evidence i have seen evidence now the gimbal
something to this then i then the next step was i had people telling me guy hey man there
there have been crash retrievals and i was deeply skeptical of that having been in the government
i was like there's no possible way that secret could have been kept for x amount of years
right so it's it's remarkable i've gone through this several logical shocks and i might go through
another one with a science i don't know i can't open mind okay interesting right off the bat
and i'm keeping an open mind and i'll just say last um i'll add that jake and i think the other
special operator Fred Baker who's is truly a legend in the community i've found in over the last
yeah they got a timeline on that they know we're doing it when it's good no but um but i you know
i think that's great that's the right answer yeah yeah i definitely definitely i would definitely
to see actual evidence i agree i think everybody agrees on that right yeah yeah
roll roll quick so i'll i'll just tee this up um and and Jeremy Corbell um there's a video
Mick i think you figured out one of those is post in first but this is the the quote unquote a
rack gimbal video um but i'll just tee it up first Jeremy got an interview with the the marine who
actually recorded this this was a uh in 2008 uh in easinod what's called a lab lab 25 i think it's
climbing and then he then and that point he's like this is bizarre i'm going to record this he
and he starts recording the screen and then we have this video i won't bore people with with
the full video but i do want to maybe quickly just point out if i can share my screen um there are
some intriguing similarities to to gimbal i think we can agree on that um and if gimbal is
never basalt before seen anomaly um no expert has ever seen this before i mean make we were on
on the call with the at flerex where he says this is quote bizarre i've never seen anything like this
classic saucer man i'll just quickly add one more thing um there's an interesting video and
and make i know you did it uh you did uh uh semi debunk of this with but i do have a a few bones
to pick per usual is that uh i'm in there for you guys yeah i see it yep it's kind of stepping
jumpy ascent is very interesting yeah yeah it's just it's an interesting little thing i think
blocks and everything and the pixels i think there's a couple of points i'd like to make the first
i saw your comment and and as you know make over the course of the gimbal video
object grows it gets bigger and it does actually become that shape so i think you're you're
as the jacket is closer it becomes more defined right well i think you know obviously i mean
as you know i think that the gimbal shape is actually you know a camera artifact and i don't
video what do you think we're looking at right here i don't know what we're looking at but like i think
really see it it's not the motion yeah the motion i think you know there's there's obviously we
background i think what we're seeing there is actually the turret of the vehicle or perhaps the
camera move you know he talked about how he was raising the uh i have to be careful not to do a
and he's so he lowered it down but i think doing that is going to make it kind of a wobble a little
bit because we're kind of zoomed in quite a lot here so i think we're just seeing camera movement
video compression now this video i think it was part of a dump that somebody did uh there's a
a uh a UFO site on twitter i think it's called ray fios or something like aria f o u s u f o's
is thermal you you incorrectly thought this was a night vision i thought that was not yeah yeah
what do you think it is uh oh yeah i still think the most likely thing is is essentially the the
up and down like that if they're led or i mean that's not that's not that's the camera bouncing
the the camera uh you know it's like the usual kind of glare type thing so i think he would be like
you know bright lights in the middle on the landing gear and maybe two lights on the side i don't
know though i mean it could be like the light is visible light landing lights why would there be
very hot so like you know how it's in light you're telling that i don't know i don't know like
but i don't think i i'm not ready to rule these out i'm not ready to be engineered this is a
that are behind it i mean you can't see the back of my head can you really it's like this right
i've taken lots of video of planes that are say like 50 to a hundred miles away and whether
there's actually kind of one big one we're looking at like i just just so bizarre to me like that
it is pretty bizarre isn't it yeah but i don't know what it is i mean it could be like a weird drone
or something but i don't really think it just shows any kind of stump i'm done yours
well it's very interesting you know it just happens to look like him i mean look at look at this
be able to prove that it was you know one thing or another but i really don't think we can
you know super compelling uh but not compelling at all i don't what i what i think is it don't
particular frame as i said you're taking white heart against black heart to think you take all the
gets larger as you get closer jump right i'm really out with perspectives in America yeah yeah exactly
so that's what happens in gimbal and it just happens yes i know it gets a lot of the exact same size
but it doesn't change shape i mean this egg isn't changing shape from here to here it's just a
bigger egg it's not going to get one end isn't going to get thicker which is what i'm seeing gimbal
no i look for what you doing a 3d model of the gimbal object that will demonstrate this this
on to ties i just i just need to and i go into this in in the in the longer interview but again
air-to-air infrared experts explicitly disagree with it yeah i came up with another
cockamani theory which was completely wrong as well so what you're going to do i think we've got
some crappy videos here which unfortunately the best videos that we have and i think that in
the thing was and then you know we'd be we'd know it was a uf oh no i'm saying none of the good
ufos work i don't think so mick and i i hope we learn more but but the pentagonist said that they
pentagon's ufos office has said we have true anomalies that i as an engineer and a physicist
and paraphrasing do not understand and i do not know anybody else who understands so let's see
what those videos are because they haven't got the the information but yeah i'm looking forward
sit wreck anyone can use it and uh hopefully they will and maybe it'll help himself i'd be happy
reality and so i think we wouldn't be having this debate if it was like super clear the margins of
it like us i mean i think i think yeah the margins of our you because we there are doors of perception
that I mean how put off says things like that yes but I think you should need to ask some
I hesitate to say real physicists but someone who's isn't perhaps so enmeshed in this whole uh
general Nathan twining who I believe went on to become the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff
he wrote a memo that that said listed all the the kind of the characteristics of UFOs and I think
a few hundred feet uh and I laid this out right there's there's I think there are at least 30 cases where
your analytic approach and yeah and this is but you you I wish you took some time to read through
the actual and I'm happy to send you the most most compelling ones and you have to read through the
feet um you had go ahead that's fine I'm just telling you that's my analytic basis that's what I
video and well yeah I would also say if we're talking about things that travel the speed of
nuts and bolts here this is this is kind of like well I wouldn't say it's getting away from nuts
and theory and I would bucket in anomalies with experimentation where you see these observable
the future scientifically speaking so I'd say if you're looking at it from like a meta scientific
Yeah, I'm sure you did.
And then I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I also, you know, did, did a, you know, study for
And then you have again, we, you know, my editor's going to kill me because I wanted to keep
I mean, if a guy was, was guarding these nuclear assets and claimed these things and it wasn't
Like I just interviewed again in Mario Woods, 1977, Ellsworth Air Force Base South Dakota,
I think Oak Ridge for another 20 years.
I wouldn't want that guy near my new period.
I don't want to get into the combat.
So it's, you know, I argue all, but I'm just saying that you don't lose your click.
I'm working.
And I don't know if he like, you know, volunteer exactly what happens.
I saw Rayleigh and so they're like, okay, go back to work.
I'll just say in the post in the post global war on terror era, their, their PTS has been
But I don't want to get into personal stuff.
Jet Mick and I just quickly, I will shut up after this.
Jet Mick and I pin you down.
And they said, and you know exactly what I'm talking about.
Yeah, I think one of those two possibilities, three possibilities.
One is that what I suggest is correct, then, there's some kind of obstacle artifact that
I know, I know.
So I don't know which one of those it is.
I do know that it looks like it's an obstacle artifact that's rotating because of de-rotation
because of all the barriers, observables that I listed in my video.
And one of the experts says that he thought I was right, but for the wrong reason.
So, you know, I think perhaps we need to talk to these experts in a bit more detail, drill
I'll put out those emails happily after this.
I said I think Mick is right, but for the wrong reason.
I don't think that's correct.
And I put that other.
Well, I'll check.
I might be wrong too, but I saw how I recall it.
The one that I read the email to you.
I didn't want to.
Because I think it's important to hear those voices.
I did not.
I put it out anonymously.
I anonymized it because I think it's important for people to see what the world's leading
I asked him for permission because I wanted to share it myself.
I already heard that.
No, yeah, I think they've got round to it yet.
I think the fraction of people who see Aguidia are coming up all the time.
I do.
I do.
I know you've had, like you talked to Patrick and he told you some ridiculous interpretation
I mean, so I'm figuring this out.
Well, I think we can all, let's end on that note of, you know, collegiality between us.