This is what you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff.
This is one of the craziest interviews I've ever done, man.
How is this possible?
Who is like this zealig of American conspiracies.
He is one of the most interesting people I've ever encountered.
Who is he?
Which, you know, is a very prestigious school.
Do you know who that is?
For the audience, ESP is extrasensory perception.
It's complex, but yes, the short answer is yes.
But I think obviously there was an interest in ESP and in what he was doing and in this idea of, okay, what if this is real?
And this is something like, I don't think is really out there.
Because the story is that, you know, official American remote viewing kind of started with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ and Stanford Research Institute.
Because we have like all of the round table research, which is so much.
And what exactly is going on there?
So who is he recruiting to do these experiments and what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation?
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What exactly is going on there?
So who is he recruiting to do these experiments, and what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation?
And obviously, Aldous Huxley is known probably best for a lot of his science fiction work, but also, you know, the Doors of Perception, where he talks about his experience with Mescaline.
In fact, on Buharic's book, The Sacred Mushroom, which is how I got into this whole thing.
And I came across The Sacred Mushroom, Buharic's book, which is very interesting.
The premise is basically, you know, and this was also the research he was doing at the Roundtable, was, you know, taking a certain type of mushroom.
And the Amanita muscaria mushroom is a very interesting mushroom.
And so I assume that must have, because I think the name of his book is similar.
We work through this body, but it is under our control.
But what is the nine?
The part of Buharic's story where I think things sort of change in his life is when, you know, this instance happens when they first channel the nine, which was in 52.
And it is correct.
And it is very, very little information on this guy.
His version of the story is this guy, they just randomly came in, fell into a trance, no context, you know, never mentions it.
in people and stuff, which is nuts.
The general message is this idea that they are wanting to help the human race, you know, basically not destroy itself.
It was a lot of, like, you've probably heard a lot about how they, sometimes these channelers are, uh, you know, what is it called?
And the other thing too, was again, it was this copper, this thing with copper, where they would also say, okay, what you need to do is you need to get the, this is really crazy.
And what's crazy is, uh, one of the space kids that I met and that we interviewed for the film, she whipped out this, uh, this was, you know, only a couple of years ago.
So the copper thing is strange.
And the only, you know, evidence I, I have is Buharic's own writing, cause we have all of his journals and he writes this in his journals where he literally says like this psychic would just blur it out.
There's some, seems like there's some sort of correlation there. The connection Lavenda makes is that all these people conducting the seance, bringing in these nine, maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the
Yeah. But, but that, that all of the people in this original seance with these blue blooded elites are also entangled with the JFK assassination, which is so crazy.
freaking seance, right? In the woods, in Maine on New Year's Eve with Andrea Paharic. And one of them, uh, is the guy who was the inventor of the bell helicopter. Right. So.
Is that Arthur Young? Arthur Young. So Arthur Young is there with his wife. His wife is Ruth Forbes Payne Young. Right. She had a lot of names. She was excessively nomenclatured. And so you have, you know, Ruth Forbes Payne Young. She's a Forbes.
is a woman named Ruth Forbes Payne. Yeah, Ruth Forbes Payne.
Yeah. But I think her daughter is Ruth Payne, who takes in Lee Harvey Oswald.
And Lee Harvey Oswald is living with Ruth Payne. And I think gets a job at the Texas Book Depository
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This is a whole other thing to get into.
They think any sort of like real channeling or anything is just, you know, is fake.
But really, the Korean War is like when, you know, conventionally it's dated to.
What is a fact?
Like, so yours is the implication of this story that this company had something to do with the assassination of JFK or like, were these men in tweed suits raiding the office, the CIA?
I mean, his family life is a whole different thing.
He gets a grant for $300,000, which at the time would have been like at least a million dollars or more from the Atomic Energy Commission, which is strange.
And so he starts this thing, Intellectron, which is basically labeled as a biomedical research company.
And again, with Puharic, I just it's it's I have to stress like there is always these instances in his life.
This is when he starts the hearing experiments where basically he claims that deaf people would come into the office and they would do research on them.
And so that I think the connection, I mean, I don't want to just jump to conclusions, but I think what I've often thought with this JFK thing and why to Melanie his assistant seemed like such a big deal is that it may have had some tie in with a mind control, sort of like a Sirhan Sirhan situation with Lee Harvey Oz.
This is, we're talking, and again, this is something I don't think a lot of people know.
The people from the Atomic Energy Commission write very clearly in letters we found, like we went, Annie Jacobson talks about it, I think in her book, like one of the guys is like, I don't believe you, you know, test me and just, and, and, and did the test on himself and it worked.
Is there any explicit connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and Intellectron or that sort of speculation on your part?
Well, the other really strange thing at this time, um, was that Pujaric was working with someone named Jose Delgado, who he probably might know who that is.
And that clearly was the heir to MK ultra, which was mostly sodium pentothal LSD, that sort of thing is chemical based.
And the other thing too, not to cut you off is I I've, with all this stuff in this film, I've gone to like the ends of the earth to try to track down.
His name is Beardsley Graham.
Um, and you have RFK junior now is head of the FDA.
So let's do this book is insane.
The beautiful thing is they make elite level healthcare accessible.
And people being tricked into saying, oh, you like this is your guardian angel or whatever.
I must say again, like I'm, this is not my forte.
So that is a thing.
That was his first, um, aha moment is that they got a mental patient, a guy who claimed he was hearing voices, but his family's convinced he's, he's, you know, sane.
So they, they bring him in, they get to know him and he says, okay, I work at this metal factory where I guess it basically is a grinding metal pieces and this kind of thing.
And the mental patient suddenly is no longer hearing voices, is like perfectly sane.
And that kicked off like all of this research where it said, okay, well, if that's possible, like what else is possible with that basic idea that that's, you know, real.
Yeah. And if you can bypass the ear canal with vibration, whatever is processing the audio ultimately in the brain, we know that you can turn molecular mass into frequency.
Everything has a quote unquote resonant frequency. This sounds woo woo, but what I just said is fact.
Yeah. Puharich. If Puharich is doing this stuff in the sixties, then it kind of makes me believe the Sherman stuff a whole lot more, which was happening.
In the early nineties around messages he's downloading, but it, maybe it does beget the question, you know, is the Sherman stuff genuinely, you know, extraterrestrial or were people beaming messages that were extraterrestrial to test the veracity of the messaging or whatever through him. And I don't know, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think he was lying. And I think the program is real.
And I went, oh, okay. Well, there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening. This is not, this is not possible.
Yeah. When I saw the, the, the, uh, sine wave move, it, it is like, it came into focus. This thing that, that I was doing in my head.
Yeah. It's all tone. It's all tones. And then the thing with the machine is again, um, and like you said, sounding crazy, like for a long time making this film, you know, like I had to,
really grapple with like that a lot because I knew what I was hearing and, and sort of not so much researching is a lot of stuff we got were like tapes of these experiments.
You're right. I mean, I think like if that was happening in 60, 61, 62, I mean, I don't know. And this gets transitions into the Uri Geller stuff, which I believe is very much involved in that same sort of research.
And the thing is too, with this device, he invented the TD 100, it was called, which was called transdermal 100.
Of course we learned he was using it with the space kids years later that nobody knew about that, but, um, so he's the, he's coming off the tail end of all the in Electron stuff. Right. Right. When he meets Geller, like literally it was 1970 is when he first hears about Geller goes to Israel.
And Intellectron is still happening then. I mean, from what I understand, like it was still very much, you know, an operating company. So he's going to Israel to meet Uri Geller while he's still very much involved in the research of essentially sending messages to people.
Um, all I can say about that is.
So all I can say is like, yeah, it could have been a trick.
But what people don't really know, uh, unless they read Buharic's book on, on Uri Geller, which is kind of like a rare book to, to come across.
And so Buharic is, you know, shot up, apparently shocked.
And, you know, I can't believe this is happening.
And so I had always just stuck to me like, okay, is this a joke?
which isn't you know is an is an army base and i read that and you know again what what do you make
the nine again is it like the nine are somehow like he has a protocol to like summon these specific nine
extraterrestrial beings is it this cynical hypnotic technique that he's doing where he's implanting
this idea of nine extraterrestrial beings or what do you think that is is he is he calling in something
that exists in reality these nine you know entities or is he creating those entities synthetically
first of all just to quickly mention like this this idea that buharach is very um there's always two
you can very much hear him saying you know is is it the not you know the type of like leading
and oh actually yeah you're right it is and that kind of thing but what's so confusing is there's
particularly powerful as far as implanting thoughts is that right yeah there's uh and again this was
proven proven at that time i mean this is like pre havana syndrome stuff and so coincidentally you know
sudden he wakes up and he's in austin new york which is you know however 50 miles or whatever
question us again and they did this teleportation right and the weird thing is again like the length
and and be like hey look i actually filmed when you right after you flew into the window and here it is
like okay like this is a way to get somebody to believe that some crazy event like that really
him uh uh with with hypnosis but again like that story is crazy and he and i think it's like okay like
telepathic connection with the material verna von braun takes me into his personal office there is a safe in
heavy says or you touch this tell me what you feel now i put my hand on it and i say verna this is
not from here he says you're right this is a piece of a ufo that crashed on our planet uh it's over it's
and this goes back to the the controllers um book a lot of the stories and again keep in mind this is
all pre coming to the u.s going to sri everyone knows that stuff this is in in tel aviv before any of
geller is fun to read you know in and of itself is because it's like it's just like a cool crazy sci-fi
it does again the mk ultra thing just explain everything which is like such a dark version of the
truth but it's possible we have to entertain that yeah or is mk ultra actually converging on a technique
ability to like manipulate human beings like i think of one of the most credible cases for me is a guy
named mario woods um who is uh at ellsworth air force base in 1977 in south dakota and he was a missile
of a walmart is the the line he always says it's sort of this crazy iconic line you know and um and uh
realizes that you know possibly he boarded a craft and what's really interesting is he says that after when
it's really sort of crazy um yeah that is the tooth thing is really strange and there's a lot online
and so he you know but he was famous at that time anyways so he leaves buharic is you know trying to
find another subject to bring through the nine he claims so this is even pre phyllis schlemer is right
sure enough he puts him he he hypnotizes him and he is communicating with not the nine but it was some other
leaves the the group that is buharic phyllis and and it's sad and again this always comes back to
bizarre you know um but that goes back to the i mean what you just told me is crazy because this was
the film does a good job of this or i hope it does is you know i don't believe or and especially don't
want to believe that mk ultra is responsible for everything and all of this stuff because there's a
night or that day said later tonight you know i just got a message that like a ufo is going to show
say you know what do you think is going to happen do you think it's going to show up and everyone said
three of the cousins all saw this huge thing is silently hovered over so while and that and and
yeah this is i mean this is one of the craziest interviews i've ever done man this is crazy i mean
kind of nuts and bolts ufo researcher who i think did some software stuff for spacex his name is richard
so and then you have you know this 1933 magenta crash which it seems like is getting increasingly
and danny on the phone with me is like dude i'm not sure that the early astronauts weren't mk ultra
space odyssey you have you know there is yeah yeah yeah i think i did hear about that yeah yeah and so
that's insane it is insane it is insane and and then you have these you know it's like the neil
thing too with the the nasa connection with puharj is again in the 60s um he was doing like a ton of
like contract work for all sorts of um different agencies but so this is actually in newspaper
were saying okay how can we land a craft what we don't could it be hot is it gonna is it cold is it
uh is it uh spike whatever so he he claims that they sent remote viewers to the moon to get a picture
talk about oh dude gordon cooper was very involved with buharic so yeah so this is one of the this is
there i mean the whole gene roddenberry thing is crazy yeah so the creator of star trek yeah so so
sure enough is the tape that no one's ever heard of this session that is kind of like crazy to to to be in
channeling the nine and roddenberry is there and it's like an hour or two hours of him asking questions
and locations and the whole premise is his experience of working with puharic and phyllis channeling the
would you know has won multiple the highest you know national security awards in israel is basically
in an apartment in tel aviv together but you know bentoff is interesting because he worked for israeli
around like you and i are right now and they would record all their conversations which you know is
where individual consciousness is kind of a pinched node of some larger fabric of consciousness or something
is that stuff exists and you can put it together how how you want but you know i've told a lot of people
film and the story in general is like you still question there's still research to be done into this
stage magician and he's you know i don't i don't know how legit he is he often said you know and i think
saying what the hell is going on here you know my kid just did this my kid just bent a spoon my kid just
were doing this and um eventually i guess is so uh eventually he's so convinced that that this is real
kids almost like an x-men kind of thing which is partially true but mostly like he would lecture and
at this time and this is um we're talking 74 when this started 73 74 and keep in mind this is right
targ at ossining sitting on the front steps so my theory is that and people have talked about this
is a uh is from sri to lab nine who hearts his lab from 73 whoa we brought it up to put off he said
was connected because i think the story most people read is just like he brought geller dropped him off
uh what time is this uh such and such general going to be at this place uh when should we go here and
it's either like a pendulum or whatever it is a countdown and i think the nine and and something
it goes back to if you really want to test like a kid's a real you know 20 year old person is a 20
approach it that way so that's my theory is that that was sort of his way and one of the space kids
or some analogy like that where the nine is basically just like
is like remote viewing is used for the us from 72 to 95 and probably now yeah to like actually add to
would go back it's very deflating i'm sure for a lot of the ufo well it is and again like i don't want
you're hearing uh you know that's what you that's what you have but what is if you are saying some
buhar it's like again it's always that question of like where did he stand with like is this real
mind control stuff but there's some gray area there that is so hard to pin down because
again in some of these um sessions and and this is strange is is that on some of the sessions you
know he'll be like okay here we are with this space kid and in there and their mom is here
and she's you know this is like the tape recording we're hearing and and on those sessions it's like
you know typical okay the nine um the you know the world is beautiful we need to save humanity etc etc
then there's other tapes that are like you know what time is the best to to remote view the kremlin
of you know give an example to to maybe other people around to say hey look this is what we're doing
around it kind of gets to the the serious stuff is again what it this is what i'm you're hearing what
just like oh okay this is what i'm hearing yeah i think anyone would kind of conclude that yeah but
again i think buharic like and and this is a big part of the film and a big part of my philosophy
about him and his story is like i think he believed i know he believed in in a lot of paranormal stuff
and what i wanted to kind of get across with it is there's so much negative conspiracy stuff about
the too thin plant and then this is the first book that really exposed basically saying everything he
do it you know yeah and whatever this kind of amorphous blob that is the ufo legacy program that
is always proverbially discussed but you know usually in a very kind of high level fuzzy ways
i think that's probably the case with a lot of these people is that they were kind of sucked up into
is i don't know but what i've heard and what i've had access to that came directly from his personal
admits like that is what was going on with him yeah well he warns future researchers basically like don't
do what i did essentially is what he he his message is if you look at the zimbardo prison experiments at
your documentary really gives is the nuanced one which shows how somebody could get incrementally
interesting is that um and you see in the film like getting back to this idea of the nine being this
what it did i never questioned what it did and so you just have to ask like how is it that puharic
is able to go to these places during that time get into very specific locations often involving very
like it does seem like what if that was that was the cover and oh this guy is so crazy he actually
thinks a psychic is telling him oh just let him go what what a kook and meanwhile he's you know
they're asking are like you know what are what is the code name that you know the the the you know
the the constant contrast is like he really was a genuine believer because he would often go um to
yeah i think a part of it is that he he because again he's going to egypt
that going on and um his death is completely mysterious what what happened you can see the
he would like stage ufo is showing up as well i think what she's i think what she was getting at
is what we were talking about with this this controllers um idea is that yeah like kind of i guess more
basically harm him and take him out he claimed again this is either like the work of someone
writes in this legal pad like you know i am this is happening to me i can tell he would test himself
what he says in this but he basically is this legal pad and he really it's all these events kind of
film um the story basically is he was involved in very similar research basically was able to prove
is was uh found dead grinberg disappeared so again what do you say it's all coincidence and you move on or
you say there's something so bizarre yeah grinberg the the whole thing about him is like he realized
is like again it's it's it's literally still like an open case like they've never figured it out yeah
agency and they're using him and you know what's crazy is uh on some random message board uh this
is a i was skeptical of that but i i was like years later i remember reading that and i and i spent
the doc is really good but there's like actually you know legitimate proof that like he he was
because you know you could imagine these people like don't want to and again this is what you
why five is amazing what what did they say well so basically like yeah what i did was i i somehow
for people that don't know sarfati is a physicist who is pretty well respected and studied under you
building ufos yeah and in this is a guy who could keep up with you know any top theoretical physicist
uh quickly is yeah he he got this call from this metallic voice which is what some of the um get what
being a possibility as far as he is yeah but i just remember him bringing up that name and in in
you about the townsend brown connection this is insane yeah this is the craziest thing to tell
dc for like meetings who hardwood and this is early 50s again which weird that the same year you're
overall i think what people don't realize about the 50s is like there's a letter between i think it's
claude shannon who invented information theory was at princeton information theory is the basis of all
he's talking about l ron hubbard and so the point is like it's this weird time where the intersection
outside the overton window like it is today yeah and so yeah anyway how would you speculate on do
uh a professor there named robert brown it then ends up at moonwatch at harvard which is connected with
for james bond that ian fleming is churchill's super spy who was like
telegram is says you know from william stevenson your husband is okay you know he's he's been
you know you know vector and maybe if all of this stuff is being coordinated at a higher level than we
needs to take them i don't trust giving them my children for their safety and so i think this is
a wilder story is um uh this one of the space kids his name is jaime he's um from mexico city
against the wall and he doesn't remember what happened and the last thing he remembers is that she
later in his life is he he says and again this is not me or a speculation or making something up like
but um then there was a lot of um but like if we're to get super concrete about this like is that
him beaming the message right now there is a ufo you know above our head or is it like
idea where that content is coming from um i don't know yeah yeah it's strange because
understand because it's it's just it really is mind-boggling because i i constantly go from like
this is this is uh an experiment this has been to like oh no this is like literally he's making
nuclear bases um but then now i'm like you're making me think this is real
the air force archives uh lincoln la paz this meteorite expert uh at university of new mexico is
anything prosaic and just like the nuclear connection is so ubiquitous and then you're
so like if i were them i'd be like try to tap into what the hell is you know controlling yeah dude this
is a crazy rabbit hole yeah obviously uh um what was i going to say you know you're see now you're now
ufo disinformation they often say like some of it you know some real stuff is sort of peppered into
was um there is uh i think i sent you something about this guy a while ago and uh i i have to say
now i don't know enough um so i don't want to go too much into it but there's a guy his name is oliver
idea like his whole world view is this idea that like everything is wrong everything in the world
is just run on frequency tone sound he thinks everything's like the universe is all sound uh
letters but this guy's theory um riser was you know the ability to communicate with you know et ufo is
you're in this hypnotic state and can you follow that tone where is it bringing you and what do you hear
now all sorts of stuff like that um so i guess what i'm getting at is maybe there was some real
is that true yeah what yeah albert einstein said like riser is he had some quote about him being
with this again this this theory of tone sound connecting the universe this is how everything
there's it's a paper trail and the 50s ufos showing up around nuclear bases is you this ubiquitous
um coupling to the computer data bank is often a term that is thrown around a lot and this idea that
and and tons of them and hundreds of hours so like you just all you can do is piece together
firsthand but i think you know to answer from what i know is i actually discovered things about you know
involved in this project is like information i was getting information like as recent as like six months
of a sudden after all these years they themselves are going wait what is that and whose name is and
almost seems like the subject of some you know kind of maniacal experiment is valerie ranson yeah who is
she's the most elusive person in this whole ufo history where i mean so basically what i do know is
lab lab lab nine and in 78 and she is very there's nothing there about her there's nothing out there
placing her what's what was his role exactly he was um so from what i understand is yeah he was like
that's so great what um oh wow so so so basically she was there but but the kicker is like she was also
with with that that world and she had some nro involvement too yeah jacques filet is the only
which is a whole other thing but she's really involved in that and that's how i got into her
of know where where she is and stuff but but it's really just strange she was very involved with gordon
involved in anything that mentions buhar is just too controversial and then he told me that he knew
talk about her is you know i don't need to say it maybe something happened now they're married
was this one theory is that she was kind of like getting information um on behalf of who i don't know
what this guy said who knew her well that was his theory but um the other theory is that she um
like that but um the really weird thing is i don't know if you've seen it there's there's allegedly an
and i'm like oh my this is crazy right so in the interview it's really bizarre she tells us really
weird and the thing is it checks out of what we know from her and most of the information is from the
point is everyone i know who knew valerie i said oh this is great a video exists of her now sent it to
you know anyone who thinks that's her is an idiot and but everything she says checks out and in the
shows up one day to her job and is like hey you know i want to take you i can't remember exactly that
trying to like recruit and what it's it's that's her story and and then after that is when all this
and all this stuff that we know about is you know late 76 and 77 70. so that's her like origin story
woman that's not even what she looks like so but and the tape recording we have this which is a
recorded phone conversation the voice on that which is most definitely her sounds it's it's her on this
to buy it on some odd website which is now down but um it's very very strange and um when i was
trying to get in contact with her i weirdly this is a crazy story i got like this this guy got in
this where like someone is like hey i heard you got you have buchars archives i'm really interested in
me an email which is allegedly from valerie which is like you know hey uh you know let's talk and this
2016 17 i'm talking like you know not that long ago like 20 21 20. he reaches back out to me and is
like hey you know what's going on with the film and is there any way i can see it and hey did you ever
it and just the fact alone that kit green was involved with her back in the late 70s is really
strange so strange yeah and early 80s yeah this is crazy it's so it's like there's a woman in the
uh extra low frequency technology it's really wild and what i can say for for again for a fact is
i think people trying to figure out what this is what can be done with it and he was just like in in the
just still difficult to navigate what's what's real and what is not real you know and i think it takes
stuff and talking to people to to kind of like keep going with it you know yeah well this is a i mean
if they're you know it's a big puzzle that we're putting together this is a huge piece that i think is
that's crazy oh oh um the one thing i was going to mention is um this is again an example of something
who hart is doing a lot of space kids stuff like late 70s into the early 80s and a lot of elf stuff
is uh not unlike valerie one of the space kids who we did an interview because we couldn't find her but
have to ask why this stuff is coming back into vogue like you have the telepathy tapes top the podcast charts
in the entire country yeah and part of me is thinks it's a beautiful amazing thing and obviously in
and she clearly was peeking past this blindfold which is it's just so sad and what a poor representation
of you know again what i think is an underlying real phenomena but does it does it make you ask
questions around why is all of this stuff coming back into vogue it feels like if you were to take an
the trend is like and are you cynical about that is is there is there i mean maybe even to take that
these things because a part of me is extremely idealistic about them coming out because i do think
or something i don't know i mean i think i certainly think this film is going to help you know put some
pieces together about the history of all this stuff and i think the fact that it's coming out now is
been something like on him that's out there is um exciting for me obviously so yeah i think it'll
you know you know you're on the right path if you do that but um yeah greg this is an honor man this
is a lot of fun one of my honestly like i love information dense podcasts especially ones that
show directly and while you're there the cowboy ufot is a fan favorite we always keep in stock
er is