we just had this lady on the other day who was friends with this dude that i just learned about
there's the title of that book what was it swastikas and flying saucers yeah well joseph
as the nazi ufo guy okay like that was really his original training yeah was in um what's it called
he's like a bishop in the in the in the catholic church of of russia or something yeah i think
a really highly intelligent man of course and he got into studying the nazi ufo connection and looking
at the foo fighters and uh particularly in europe as potentially nazi third reich technology and so
he went into that in several books however you know the real the thing with joseph i mean you
open to an extraterrestrial interpretation of the ufo phenomenon over time because like in the early
tech earthbound secret tech and i don't think that he's in that place at least the last few times that
beautiful so i always love uh the opportunity when the opportunity arises to talk to somebody
in this stuff just you know for a few years recently since like the emergence of youtube um but i think it
was like the first one was james fox then uh jason georgiani steven greer these types of folks
and uh you i've noticed that you've been in a lot of some of like the biggest documentaries on this
brief summary of how you got into the stuff in the first place and what you've been doing ever since
so um i got involved in this subject a little over 30 years ago so it was in the like 1993 94
cold war studies at the university of rochester in upstate new york and i was very much into that
secret which is kind of a classic in the ufo field and uh it was the subtitle of that book that really
caught my attention the worldwide ufo cover-up and i was like oh wow it's like it's 1994 and
that was really my question so i bought the book and i like the book it's a great book and at the
same time i got on to what was then the baby version of the internet uh all of the usenet groups
there not something to this is this a waste of time uh like all of the other people in the academic
basically the presidency of harry truman i'm looking at the early cold war 1950 and i'm thinking
obtained through freedom of information which itself didn't really get going until the late 1970s
these flying saucers that the government was telling the world nothing to this it's all hoaxes
you read uh statements by the director of scientific intelligence of the cia in 1952 a man named h
marshall chanwell who's telling his boss walter beetle smith director of the cia
investigating and then that opens up like a thousand other questions like where are the other academicians
where's the university crowd looking into this you would think if you want to debunk this fine debunk it
let's look at the actual evidence here and deal with it but they would never deal with it they would never
deal with the fact that like why was the first director of the cia a man named roscoe helen cotter
a member of a ufo organization called nikep in the in the 1950s until he clearly under pressure
resigned in 1962 just before nikep was trying to get congressional hearings back then so the cia was
created the same year roswell happened right or was that a year no 1947 1947 right although you could
see the predecessor organizations the oss during world war and then something called the cig which was in
1946 going into 47 and then out of that you get the central intelligence agency that's all with the
happened at roswell what i think happened at roswell was i think there was the recovery of
how general corso i think it was had some sort of report of the roswell crash and he mentioned stuff
philip corso he wasn't a general but he was um an officer in the u.s army and uh in the late 50s early
the day after roswell was published in 1997 he stated yes my assignment at that time was to um
that doesn't debunk the roswell i think corso is very much uh stating that roswell did happen as
something extraordinary but like so the the the implications of that would mean that either a
some of the alien tech i don't think that's impossible at all so velcro yeah i don't really
know if the aliens use velcro be kind of a handy thing uh for your sneakers or whatever footwear they got
a lot of these things material science uh i think notoriously is said to be one of the most important
you know just the other day hal putoff is on rogan and he's talking yeah yeah and and hal has talked
about the so-called meta material so what is the meta material it's this artifact that uh was sent out
to art bell back in the day in the 90s and then art uh entrusted to linda moulton how and then linda
to manufacture um and so that would be the material science and that would be an important thing like
you'd need to master if you want to do what flying saucers do you need to have the materials that are
sufficient to be able to withstand whatever you need them to do or in the case of what how speculated
waves in the terahertz range when i heard him say that the first time i'm like what the hell are you
it's in the skin of the craft itself yeah that's a really kind of nifty solution and maybe that's
part of what they do wow yeah the only uh my introduction to this whole anti-gravity theory was
the bob lazar story and how he talked about that little uh basketball size uh reactor yeah being inside
the craft or whatever and it somehow like repelled things away and he explained it it was a great
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always a document kind of a person i wanted to know uh what was the as far as we can understand
the classified attitude that was taken during the 1940s and 50s especially uh that's where i started
and i i will just say and we can go as far as we decide here but that the conclusion was very clear
that the u.s national security community knew some elements knew this was real this was not made by the
as i was able to scrounge them up at the time this is back in the 1990s and um and i published my first
was the start of my entry into this field back in the early 2000s and i have never left it's it's kept
me um in its grip ever since so your theory was that the your conclusion was that the national
at all over the years yes it's it's developed and it's deepened i guess i could say i've never
i've never since then formed the conclusion that it's fake or that it's not a concern i've never gone
he was the first uh kind of famous person to endorse my work it was like great oh wow moonwalking
astronaut and but he said to me look your your theory about the cover-up is not exactly right
it's like he said he believed that my theory was that it's like the government and
like the president's in on and everyone's in on the secrecy and i don't really know if i truly
fingers in this pie and it's not all uh federal government and um and so over the years like
would drop me a little little drops along the way little breadcrumbs um and um indicating like
something else and i don't know the full answer to that to this day but uh but that's a big part of
this so you're dealing with a kind of a labyrinth of secrecy and to the extent that it's privatized
my years of looking into this i have to say uh one of the uh biggest turning points for me in this
whole topic was that documentary that you were a part of um about paul benowitz um was it the magic
a well done movie and uh two it really like was eye-opening to see to like the the extent that the
uh the intelligence people and the people in the air force nsa would all work together to
basically scramble the mind of one individual just to alter public perception of something yeah that's
an interesting one because to this day uh the interpretation of what happened with paul benowitz
is it's a that is still an open question in my opinion oh really well to the extent that what
the reserves kudos for that but the the basic question is what so paul for people who don't
know this paul benowitz was a uh kind of a small u.s defense contractor in the 1970s he uh lived right
near kirtland air force base in uh new mexico and he's able to see uh and by he's by the manzano
becoming uh a hassle and a potential security risk for the people over at kirtland whatever they were
doing so greg argued and i cannot remember what uh the magic man documentary actually argued here
i think the claim was that essentially like 30 000 foot view is that he was a conduit of disinformation
in the ufo community to poison the well of the ufo community because they knew there were soviet spies
espionage and there's definitely the attempt to muddy the waters of the ufo community but the question
associated with this who firmly believed he was seeing more than that but also when you look at the
the uh history of violations of sensitive airspace of u.s bases across the entire u.s this is an old
story so it's not a unique thing to kirtland it's something that and and through the 1940s and 50s
that um but the fact that they went in and screwed with him and convinced him that it was aliens
much involved in all of that wasn't there a part of that documentary where they claimed the nsa moved
in across the street and was beaming information into his house saying that the aliens were trying
actually can't remember that so that's that's what i remember from the magic man documentary maybe yeah
you know maybe yeah and then there was the whole part about the cattle mutilation which was wild
you know how they were doing the underground testing for they were mining uh is this a myrna
happening all in the mid and late 70s out in the midwest and out in the rockies and uh and benowitz
the cattle mutilation i think cattle being lifted up but she was also uh supposedly taken to an
underground facility herself and leo sprinkle did the regression and benowitz i think was there and
for psychiatric evaluation like in the late 80s it this really got to him it really messed him up and
books my second volume of history uh called ufos in the national security state and my my feeling was
you look at the the mid and late 70s and two important things were happening to threaten
the secrecy of the ufo subject at that time one was as we mentioned the release of documents of
freedom of information this was a new thing this had never happened before you know in the 50s and
60s the u.s air force could say we don't know anything about these ufos i mean it's a little bit
and they could get away with that until in the late 70s researchers were petitioning the government
for documents pertaining to ufos and holy cow like they got a lot of them proving that the air force was
lying they were lying through their teeth for years and so that was one thing so the freedom of
information act was a threat to the secrecy and if you're if you're on the other side of that trying
to guard the secrets you have to be thinking what is our exposure here what do we have to worry about
is if they shake the tree enough is something going to fall out of that tree that's really compromising
right like that's like what came out was compromising enough but anything worse that's one problem the
all in the late 70s this all happened at once prong number one was foia prong number two is crash
retrievals and so we have like people like stanton friedman researching roswell for the first time
uh there was a researcher no longer around called leonard stringfield who back in the 70s and 80s was
retrievals it was it was kind of a first like no one was a magnet the way stringfield was at that time
one was reading but they were coming out and so again if you're managing the secrecy
uncovers something that's truly compromising that we do not want out and so the theory and i think this
is probably true is you muddy the waters and you you um put out information that would
sow the seed of doubt into documents and this is one argument about the mj 12 documents that came
out in the mid-1980s and it's possible that that's the case and uh and then the the campaign
kind of the empire strikes back you know you've got all of this uh all of these threats to the
empire of secrecy and the late 70s early 80s they make the decision in the early 80s like let's um
do something about that and which is the case like to this day new documents may come out and you've
with richard dodie and paul benowitz in the it was the 80s that was happening yeah if they were doing
that in the 80s imagine what they could what they have the ability to do now with the internet it's
doubt but uh the ufo subject which is the one that i'm most interested in i think definitely
time and it kind of breaks open the space a little bit where people can talk about this a bit more
that uh the national security crowd is just going to walk away from the table and say oh yeah here
there's too many far too many reasons right to maintain this and to fight every step of the way
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it's like are we dealing with a covert op by the government to have a controlled and false release
but to some extent but there's still the the secrecy group if we can call them that that is
the way yeah i think um when me when i had jesse michaelson here he was i think he told me that
as far as like all of the information that exists about this stuff on the internet he's he was saying
just had this congressional briefing just the other day as we're as we're recording this in the very
with robert bigelow's national institute for discovery science back in the 90s and early 2000s
2019 that was a big mess but it was all true davis meets with wilson after wilson had retired from the
defense intelligence agency he had run the dia and this is connected you interviewed stephen greer so
stephen greer was very much a part of this so back in 1997 all right greer and edgar mitchell the
they are beyond the formal control of the us government and so they're trying to get audiences
who was uh head of intelligence for the joint chiefs of staff at that time this is april 1997
look into this the head of the joint chiefs yeah well he's head of intelligence for the joint chiefs
so or he was deputy head of intelligence for the joint chiefs he then became head of intelligence for
the joint chiefs which was head of the dia so he was important and he goes on a two-month
uh wild goose chase actually within the pentagon's bureaucratic structure we can go into more detail
if you want but the short version is he finds a number not just one several special access programs
that is ultra ultra secret programs dealing with et tech he contacts the managers of one of them
and uh and he's actually able to get a private in-person meeting with them they are the the program
manager the security manager and the uh the corporate attorney right for the for this it was a
private contractor we don't know that it was lockheed but that's what the betting money is so he goes
uh they've made painfully slow progress in understanding it uh they had what's called the
bigot list b-i-g-o-t and it's an acronym deriving from world war ii anyway that's the list of people
who are allowed to be honest and it's like 500 people and wilson's in in uh is reading the list
he's recognizing very few names from the dod they're almost all in private industry and he says no i need
complain and he was threatened with his career he's threatened he'd lose a star or two along the way and
this program and so somehow this got back to edgar mitchell the astronaut and mitchell was in with the
attempt by the head of intelligence for the joint chiefs to get access to this program and he was denied
to wilson we want to talk to him so wilson retires in 02 and clearly eric davis who was part of the
nids group he's the one he goes out and he he interviews wilson he got he he got the scoop and he writes
2006 and seven six seven 2007 and then um and i read the portion where wilson is telling davis
this this technology was not made by earth not made by man not by human hands in in the davis notes
by human hands so they all knew that so davis gets these notes and the only reason those notes leaked out
um well it got it got leaked out so there was a friend of the family who was able to get some of
mitchell's documents those documents went to australia and from there they were jpegged and by the early
part of 2019 they were quietly circulating around like the full notes that davis had written and then
it leaked out it leaked out enough in the spring of 2019 that i uh took it upon myself to do my own
no no and i don't think sarfati was part of the sri thing um okay that's put off and uh russell targ
of people talk about that on this on this show before and it's uh yeah the way he described it with
rogan was uh it was very very cohesive like it made a lot of sense the way he did it yeah it's
and the recent congressional yeah so like that was um oh and the reason i brought that up at all yeah
man in my opinion he has a stellar reputation and so on the on this briefing he's talking about like
at it i thought oh yeah it looks like that i see these things on x on twitter all the time and i just
though yeah that got very quickly and and people were just hammering on that and but like the whole
the mistake okay fine whatever but i don't think that any of that was in bad faith at all i absolutely
the skeptics now you got davis with these amazing statements you had uh admiral tim gallaudet during
the briefing with very impressive statements and um christopher mellon who's always on point made very
mistaken photograph the whole time well the debunkers i mean that's what they'll do you know they'll look
for the one little thing rather than you look at the big picture of what these other
about the news stories that have come out in the last week from our from this moment that i'm here
we're sleeping pulled up here yeah i touched the ufo that's 12 days ago wow yeah yeah so anyway we had
that story then we had um trying to get these in order oh matthew brown who's uh the uh latest we
we had uh we had we had put off on rogan we had the congressional briefing and then just yesterday
gregory this was put out in the daily mail uh by josh um boom no josh uh forgive me he's a friend i like
him it'll come uh anyway that came out in the daily mail what was it about was the he was he was an air
not have the ability to do tilt at an angle while hovering uh rotate this way rotate that way
stuff he said i was i asked him where do we get this and he said the guy just pointed up and indicating
but think of this in the last less than two weeks those all of those have come out like that's
with eric davis and all those guys we're looking at a kind of pile-on effect you know with uh the
never in all of the history of ufo research and that's this is something i can speak very
confidently about there has never been anything like the time that we're in now this is this is
unprecedented and where it will lead is a really good question yeah yeah so so over the last couple
this roller coaster of emotions on the ufo topic from being a i get burnt out on it super easily
nobody can no like it doesn't matter what the truth is because there's just everything's out there
that and as far as the burnout goes i i'm totally i've done this for 30 years right and my wife could
i can't do ufos anymore like in the old days i would go to like two three in the morning just like
and nowadays like i do it in the morning and the afternoons and then i have to i have to end it yeah
what's going on the reason uh that i i still i very much believe that the significant portion of
this phenomenon is from non-human intelligence the reason i believe that is i look at the earliest
history of this uh particularly the early like the post-world war ii but even there are some very
well and so when you look at some of these early cases and then particularly when you read uh the
with a secret us black budget project it just doesn't because because all the intelligence officers
that we know of at the time in the 40s were looking into this and there just is there's nothing
like you know third third reich tech and all of that i mean there's definitely the horton brothers
which was yeah yeah yeah there's the horton brothers and uh and i think now i think we're seeing
more and more support for the idea of a 1933 italian recovery right italian this is i think
uh perspectives coming in on this uh the real man who researched this is an italian researcher named
roberto pinotti who looked at a lot of the original documents that do exist in italian from 1933.
and um interesting so i think yes like this goes back farther in time than a lot of the american
i think there's even in the us there were prior cases to roswell but certainly this 1933 case
is so you you think the the fact that these cases or crash recoveries retrievals whatever you want to
call them they go back so far earlier than the the 1940s you think that points to it being of
paper i highly recommend people read it and and i think his take and he just mentioned this the other
i would imagine that the extraterrestrial hypothesis actually still makes more sense to me than anything
possible even despite the vast distances to go interstellar if you can manipulate space-time in
some way bending space-time we have math for that ghan and miguel alcubierre in the 90s apparently came
up with some version of warp drive mathematically the problem is finding the amount of energy
sufficient to do it but same thing with time i think that's the same thing with time travel right
think the fact that they come from another place still makes the most sense to me uh the fact that we
would be of interest makes a lot of sense to me the fact that earth would be a very interesting place
also makes a lot of sense to me i think all of that makes perfect sense that if you have the ability
could they actually have the ability to detect advanced consciousness i don't know maybe they can
life in this universe but how common really would planets like ours be we have we're in the goldilocks
zone but it takes a lot more than that right we have the moon isn't we have the moon incredible which
is uh it's it's uh what's the word it's the perfect terraforming device it's one i think it's one
twentieth the size of the sun and one twentieth the distance from the sun i think i'm getting that
math right oh it's a lot less than one twentieth the sun maybe maybe i'm maybe i'm getting that
math wrong steve maybe you can correct me with the uh the fractions there anyways the fractions are
exact the exact uh size comparison to the sun and the exact distance from the sun sun is equal so it
it if if that's a significant part the fact that it's a stabilizer of our environment is very
significant uh it's it's always got one side turned to the earth that's i can't remember the word for
that but that could be significant it's totally locked yeah thank you steve what's the fractions of
the distance the distance ratio and the size ratio find that and then it is you know it is the perfect
evolve in the water but then we have enough land out of the water that life can crawl up and evolve on land
that's that can't be very common now the universe is big enough that you could think all right maybe
allowed us to hit the sweet spot we developed these hands that can do things and manipulate our
that given the proper conditions right and i'm going to guess that you know in enough parts of the
universe those conditions have existed so that you then develop life and then it gets to the the critical
we're developing artifact you know strong ai sure and uh all the other technologies that'll go along with it
nanotech and who the hell knows what quantum computing and what kind of crazy
by the requirements of constantly developing that intelligence in other words
uh it's not about like our society isn't about the human race anymore it's really about
meeting the needs of the demands of a highly integrated digitally advanced artificially intelligent
the system and we're serving the system that is becoming ever more complex and and that intelligence will
just kind of take off on its own because i think it's the intelligence that's the dominant factor
actually ever thinks that or if i'm the only person but this is what i i've come to believe like we serve
we serve the system that we have helped to create but really we're just we are simply actors we're just
we're the caterpillar yeah we're like the servants of of what high intelligence demands and we we're
and you know the instant you step outside that sweat's going to be on you like morning dew and the
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because all that we do is we adapt to the environments that we live in and we are now radically changing
technology right yeah in the last 10 000 years we're not the same as we were back then so uh and
going to look like uh the you know the problem with our future is that every every new technological
leap you make whether it's mastering the use of fire or stone tools or now working at it you know
dependent on it and then not only that but the fact that you have fire means you have to develop all
these other technologies because we have to maintain the fire we have to protect the fire we have to
find and process the right kinds of wood like all of that that that prompts further intellectual
you know going back to this you know this technology conversation and the evolution of human beings
one of the ideas that i've been throwing around is the idea of like this this esp telekinesis having
like ancient human beings right before we had the development of language before we had the
been uh hashing around for a couple of years excuse me i totally believe that that's the case we actually
are uh the brain capacity of the human being today is less than it was among um our ancestors even more
than 10 000 years ago i think it's like the amount of a golf ball or no more than that i think right uh
the brain's expensive i mean in terms of energy like it's it's not free and so you you have to have
about microtubules and the brain and the ability to access quantum information in some way yeah and
i'm probably saying this wrong in countless ways but but essentially that we have the capacity to
in this solar system um all the different species that exist on earth i think out of so this is kind
there's over two million species of animals i didn't mean to interrupt you isn't he the one who um
his most recent one but one of them is called the extra tempestrial model and he basically explains
are 2 million catalogued species on planet earth out of the 2 million 20 of them are hominids out
of the 20 hominids we are the ones that developed technology that was able to escape the earth
an extremely rare planet being such a you know having the moon the way it is being this having so
much water and land being inhabitable teaming with life so now let's go look at all the other
goldilocks planets that we know of that are so far away how how many of them have the same gravity the
same atmosphere the same how many of them are water worlds or not and what is the likelihood that those
beings that evolve on that planet that goldilocks planet are going to be exactly like the 0.0001
percent right that ended up being human beings on this planet so he's like basically the case he
going to again i think because what life does life evolves and life adapts and so if the necessary thing
agree with all of that i think that's entirely right but the fact that our body plan is an anomaly i
understand what is the mechanism of evolution what is it really is it truly just random mutation or is
way through adaptation through the need for survival and luck yeah but like this is if you're going to
might just be the best way to do it because what you need is an ability to manipulate your
than that i don't know of anything that's been better uh and then the thing is once our you know
happening elsewhere what do you got steve oh the crab species conversion yeah it's similar to what
bodies that's just what works in the ocean for little creatures like that independently unrelated yeah
can due to the environments that they live in develop very similar uh yeah like you know bats
it's a it's a quantum theory essentially so i guess one of the examples that sheldrake used was this
a monkey on one side of the world discover some sort of technology figures out how to crack a crack
some a coconut open with a rock or whatever and at the same time this quantum in this quantum field
the monkeys on the opposite side of the world figure out the same thing so he thinks that might
tie into evolution between planets he said this isn't just on the earth yeah hey i'd entertain that i mean
yeah uh you know there's the secret life of plants which came out over 50 years ago which talks about
like there's all different ways uh we know that we know that uh fungi under the ground are somehow i
i don't know so there something like that could sure why not steve what'd you find about the sun anything
it's certainly less than 120. it's a one to 43 000 is the is the moon's ratio to the uh what the distance
to the sun and the earth is similar at one to eleven thousand seven hundred i don't know what that means
i don't know google what's the distance what is the distance of the earth to the sun
want to um start working on this project involving usos specifically yeah one of the most uh rewarding
out of the ocean yeah making a big uh display like that and i thought i mean how many how many of these
person asked me a question about a particular case from 1945 near the aleutian islands a little
island called adak island out there and there is a case from the summer of 1945 where a u.s
transport ship world war the pacific war was still happening uh they were returning from japan to
seattle and they were by the aleutians and apparently an object appeared to have come out of the water
uh disk-shaped object circles around the ship twice and then takes off so that was a case that
researcher named ivan sanderson a very good book uh there was another very good book by uh the recently
doing more of these little mini presentations for my website and it just became by the summer of 2022
turned out into uh what will be a three-volume project the first volume i just published a couple
months ago and that and that will be followed by the other two which will be out this year i've
looking for them because i really wanted cases that uh had some meat on the bones that you could kind
of work with and give a good description of so i've got about just under 700 uh from around the world
and some of them go back kind of far not not into the distant distant ancient uh the first really
though and then they become better over the years uh a lot more detail and i just started collecting
researchers and i think they're just completely they've gone by the boards and i thought uh they
more about this phenomenon just looking at some of the statistics that seemed to jump out at me so all in
all like you you're seeing this phenomenon evolve over especially the last couple of hundred years
transformation of our own technology especially over the last century i mean it's kind of an amazing
thing you know you think of where we were in the oceans a little over 100 years ago we the first
operational submarine didn't deploy until the year 1900 and that was just like you know barely able to
get in there so we were we were not really going deep into the water right until the 20th century so
now we have hundreds of them circling the oceans loaded with nuclear warheads exactly exactly so
now organized into these collective aggressive communities we call nations peering over the fence
at each other with deadly weapons that could end the entire planet's existence and you're watching
right because like you can see the whole trajectory you know that like a few generations ago they were
all living in wooden huts and now wow like here we are to reach the singularity yes exactly so
and so they're watching but but i have no doubt that we have our own little unique variations on the
when i was looking at the statistics of this um this whole thing happened because
i finished writing all the cases and i'm talking with my wife and she's like you know it'd be a great
the categories like uh what color was the craft what shape was the craft what was it doing with the
what was it under the water did it emerge from the yeah how close are the witnesses and i'm like
day or night simple did this happen when the sun was out or when it was dark like very simple
50 50 50 day versus night and then suddenly starting in the late 60s usos yeah usos exactly
starting in the late 60s it goes to 75 at night and it was it remained that to this day 75 now i mean
don't think so i try to pick what i thought were the best and most meaty cases and something seems
to have happened in the late 60s how do you go about mining all this information do you just look for
and just scrub the internet for cases involving usos or do you interview specific people ask them a little
bit of both okay mostly mostly mostly pulling out the information from there are a couple of uh
websites where there's a lot of information so one is the national ufo reporting center that's run by
the mutual ufo network has a database which i was they graciously allowed me to use their database
print magazines from the 1970s that i'd look for and just get them and and um find these cases where
are people seeing these uf usos for the most part is there is there is there one spot in the world
kind of people are reporting these yeah there are hot spots we probably part of the problem with usos
is we're all like we live on the land we're landlubbers and so usually you're not out in the middle
of the pacific ocean so that's a problem right there uh navies are the u.s navies but they don't like to
people see these they're usually on the coast or maybe they're on a lake or river but if it's an ocean
base which is most of them it's long along the coast that's where people about like um oil rigs
yeah a couple of them there's a good one from the gulf of mexico am i a gulf of america gulf of
there's quite a few from the gulf here quite a few and uh one of my favorite ones this is from the
rig wrote into new fork the website and he uh described this he said i was with a bunch of
this humongous gargantuan like football field plus size object comes out of the water dripping water
to this case he said i spoke with the witness on the phone peter will do that sometimes he said i found
it's a pretty interesting story and i i tend i mean i read the account and that's one of the cases that
goes into the third volume of my study did that corroborate any other accounts were there any other
gargantuan size objects that have been reported over over the years you wonder like what are they doing
it's like a small city you know it's the best place to hide it really is the oceans are
i think he's on our list steve he's coming on the podcast is he really yeah he's good good good shout
you know look at the ocean so a lot of things about it first of all it's non-compressible in other words
the pressure is constant so that could be that could be helpful it's it's certainly protective
like if you are from a place where maybe our solar radiation is not necessarily the right thing for you
you come from somewhere else the ocean is a protective place for that it's uh temperature
variations are far less in the ocean than they would be above the ocean and a lot of other things
a water right society sure well the oceans might be feel like home so there are good reasons and then
yeah and and if you if you are interested in these human creatures well you know that they live on the
land so we might hang out in the ocean stay out of the way so there's good reasons that the oceans would
be providing you have the technology to do it but if you've got that then sure why not the uh you asked
puerto rico really especially the the east west and northern coasts the southern coast yeah but i think
i just haven't found as many but along the um uh you get like northwest aguadilla man or you go out to
the east uh the u.s navy's got a big presence at a place called roosevelt roads there facing viecke
island there's a lot of activity there but north of the island you've got the great puerto rico trench
so you're talking you find a map almost six miles down it's it's not quite as deep as the mariana
trench in the pacific but it's you know close and it's quite large several hundred miles so you have um
not exactly at the trench but it's uh you know not that far from it i guess right or around this area
roughly the cases go uh good puerto rico trench cases go back to the early 60s that i found maybe even in
the 50s but they really start to collect in the 60s early 1960s uh gosh there's some good aguadilla cases
from uh the 70s and the 80s and the 90s and the 2000s like they they've got a throughout there's
quite a few interesting ones that's a picture on that puerto rico the puerto rico trench go to that
one to the left over there top left yeah right there blow that up so i can see it
oh wow tilted so that's that is on is that northeast south is that oriented the right way or is that
reverse it's northern plate is over here yeah so that north is to the right correct yeah yeah and
that would mean that agua dia is where on the top left top top top right excuse me top right okay i
a hard way to put it so years after the fact it comes these stories will come out you know in
catalina island oh yeah near la there that absolutely the entire uh atlantic seaboard of the united states
going into canada uh florida where we are is extremely very very active on all sides of the peninsula
really florida yeah absolutely but going all the way up the eastern u.s coast but then that's
see here's the problem with this so usos just like ufos or uap now it's very us dominated in terms
we've got mufon we've got the national ufo reporting center and so we're able to get these other
regions of the world i don't really think that they have the the same infrastructure for collecting
these cases right it's hard now there are some area italy the italian researchers
jacques valet book where there was like a massacre down there polaris yeah yes at the amazon um the
delta reaching out to the atlantic ocean in the late 70s yes yes yes um and there's a lot of those
that are jet genuine uso cases so many of those were seen in the water coming out of the water
entering the water that's an incredibly ecologically important area part of this world i mean it's
it's the most massive amount of water flow i think going into any ocean on the planet amazon river yeah
out of the amazon it's massive uh this is incredibly ecologically important and rich like estuary
going on maybe they're interested in that yeah um but anyway yeah there were some cases in the late 70s
appears to be the case yeah it was a lot it seemed like the way it was described to me was that there was
i really like tim uh he went down where the hell was he was it peru maybe anyway just in the last few
stuff well there's you know tracy's in the next room she could probably jump in on this better than i
disturbing possibilities that are out there you know out of all the uso cases that you went over
know more about that 1717 case yeah i'll tell you that right now that's right off the coast of
martinique that's in the caribbean okay so it's not that far from where we are here we're in florida
uh the name of the captain i cannot recall his name chevalier something uh he wrote in his log this is so
i envision like a a straight perpendicular rod of some sort but above the water uh moving along with his ship
it's not the best case but it's not the worst like it's it was i decided to include it because
obviously uh absolutely and uh the 18th century which that is part of that i don't know there's not
many that i have found there's an interesting one off the coast of southern france i think from 1740
67 and i think that might be it for the only like a couple of cases it really starts going
the first really good one that i just was kind of really taken by took place in 1825 and this was on
stories going on here but they were coming back from hawaii and they were going down the pacific
uh and they were going to end up in chile okay so they were down by uh the cook islands
islands so it's like way down in the south part of the specific the pacific ocean and it's 3 30 in
the morning the ships uh there was a naturalist aboard the ship i think of like in the movie master
and commander they you know the buddy of uh russell crowe the captain was this naturalist uh that they
had aboard the ship and it's around the same time period so i'm thinking something like that he writes
you can find the pdf online i have a link to it from my book and he said yeah 3 30 the uh the watch
on the ship reported a spherical object emerging from the ocean he said it was like it looked like a red
cannon shot coming out of the water so it was like a deep orange type of a color but incredible
bright he said it was so bright and he literally said you could pick a pin off the deck it lifted up
to a certain elevation and then went back down into the water and then came up a second time and then
went back into the water now you know how many naturalistic explanations can you think of that can
you read the rest of his diaries i read some of it i mean he was clearly a very uh meticulous
in his journal from august 12 1825 that's a heck of a case and i thought that's like the first really
they were off the cook islands so those are i don't know how close they were to that they were
i i don't think they were close to land i think they were out there they're out in the ocean i don't
know exactly so he said you know and there's some other good ones from the 19th century there's one
from uh is he what's that there i i found the story uh block sam with a with an x where is it i
just found it oh you got it yeah well this is the story good good deal yeah any what does it got you
got illustrations or what yeah i think this is the illustration of that event oh or at least it's
included with the story oh okay looks like an iceberg behind it right yeah they weren't by
icebergs yeah cook islands there wouldn't have been icebergs no but that's the name andrew blocksham
okay interesting yeah the hms blonde correct that's the ship and what year again 18 25 25 yeah wow
what was the size of the thing did they do i he you know i don't think he was a direct witness i think
he was reporting what the night watch reported ah so there's that so he's not a direct witness so
estimate i get the impression it was kind of large i mean it was noticeable it was very bright lit up the
deck of the ship by the way so fast forward about 150 years to 1971 okay this is going into my next volume
uh and uh the uss john f kennedy aircraft carrier so is near puerto rico just saying uh they had just
and the man operating communications and we have his name he he in fact uh reported this to stephen
name is james copp with a k and he also reported this to a couple of other um websites uh at the time
so he's operating communications on the j the jfk carrier 8 30 at night and he says
suddenly all of the communication he discussed the the way the communications on the ship where he
but it's really it's kind of not that funny he hears on the intercom someone screaming it's god
it's the end of the world so he's thinking what is going on he goes he's able to go out and look
hovering above or near the jfk he said it gave off about half the strength of sunlight
whatever so he's watching this for maybe half a minute not long and then the ship goes to battle
station where he says for the next uh 20 25 minutes uh the ship was on general quarters and
the communications were just down and he also uh stated that he believed that the weapons like aircraft
like um i think what do they have f4s they were not operational so the aircraft would not fly or
object i mean to me it's almost it seems like it could have been identical to the one from the 1820s
i wonder how many of them there are you know because like the most the first one that i ever heard
about was the tic tac yeah and that thing was like zooming around zipping around and uh i think
i think there's a good chance there was something below the water there too oh you think you think
and it's not 100 confirmed but that's what i i think is probably the case but yeah well we the tic
and there's a lot of good witnesses for that um kevin day who operated the radar aboard the uss princeton
and great to tell and of course we have david fravor's testimony and and um a number of the
as well i mean anything that can appear at the what's called the cap the cap point before you get
anywhere near catalina it's off the coast of that happened off the coast of lower baja california
think okay not not that far right but off out out there in the pacific
i have there's a lot of crazy stuff out in the ocean i have a friend who lives in tijuana and he
says there's all kinds of like ufo stuff going on out there especially like in the water like uso type
stuff and stuff that you really don't hear about in like the media in the us yeah i think that there's
who had an interesting uso uh account uh off the yucatan part of it you know on the other side
the stories are floating around there as it were and uh how i i have no doubt there's far more
cases that are connected to mexico than we probably you know i have been able to find you know the just
the reports from like uh robert hastings with the ufos and nukes and the the the saucers showing up
sub well we have some pretty good account actually the best accounts of that by the way i'm a very big
but uh yeah the best nuclear submarine stories that i've been able to find i mean there's a
one or two of american but the soviets soviet union um yeah they have some we we learned about them i think a
lot of this happened when the soviet union fell in in 1991 and for a while there a lot of these stories
came out a lot of kgb files and this type of thing and so we uh soviet navy in the late 60s and through
the 70s and probably beyond reported something and i'm sure i'm going to mispronounce this it's spelled
sound in the water so soviet submarines and i think this is most active in the northern atlantic
at first so these objects would be in the water uh they'd hear these bizarre croaking type sounds
are they engaging in that i don't i don't i'm not aware that the soviets believed that these kovakary
there was a um apparently a a formal classified study of them that was supposedly within the soviet
kind of detection one of the things that just fascinates me about uh these usos is like whenever
i want to feel what is it like to be there so imagine it's the cold war it's the 1960s or 70s and
you're in the water and you're hunting for the enemy you're a russian you're hunting for the americans
you're american you're hunting for the russians and it's pitch black and you know and then there's
you're hunting from their point of view about this i mean honestly i mean uh but the amount of drama
i don't want to mess it up yeah he's good okay thank you um i i just have to think like the drama
the human drama has got to be off the charts for these people to have experiences and that was one of the
rail draws for me to uh to engage in this project yeah that's one of the things i think about a lot
too like you know there's various ideas of like how many people in the world know the truth about
this stuff right like how many people that exist on earth know everything outside of the compartmented
you know that mean people that have all the pieces to the puzzle maybe maybe 100 200 300 yeah i
people if they do exist if there is anyone who has the whole picture the whole every piece of the pie
still out there i still hear it's called breakaway civilization so it's the idea that you coined that
in uh the study of human civilizations is a very um kind of i i once read uh the condensed version
of a book by arnold toynby a really great historian it's like the mozart of historians in my opinion and
he wrote this arnold toynby he's a he was a genius okay and i think he died in the 40s um but he wrote this
something that is really not popular anymore he did these meta historians like he was looking at the grand
study of human civilizations anyway i was reading that at the time this is 2007 2008 and um i thought you
know what about a civilization that develops out of the classified world that we don't know about
during the cold war of of separate scientific infrastructure in the soviet union they had a
uh which i was really thinking a lot about of course at that time to the point where you would have
these beings are yeah that you cannot share with the rest of the world right but you that doesn't stop
proles living on the surface but you you are aware of anti-grav research you have the ability to go off
world maybe you have the ability to learn who these other beings are more than so that would i called it
you've got a job in the classified world you go off you punch the clock and you go into your
the breakaway and then you come home you say hello to your spouse how was work dear oh it's pretty good
other people have taken the idea joseph farrell we talked about joseph he has he actually wrote about
that well if you were uh one of the executives of one of those corporations that did have this
technology that's been evolving since the 50s with some sort of crazy physical understanding of
physics that uh the rest of the world doesn't even understand and you now have weapons that are more
powerful than the united states military russia china all of them combined and the head of the
joint chiefs of staff wants some answers you're gonna give them the double bird you're gonna say off
you're not getting any of our stuff we could take out every single military on the war in in the
in the snap of our fingers so like you you don't have to answer to anybody yeah if they're that
what is the structure of this secrecy for real like who who's running it who's who's the guy in charge
interesting you know the i had this lady on recently this woman who uh tracks money uh in
the government and government spending and budgets and stuff like this and she was a head she was a
worked during the bush administration and she was a part talking about katherine austin fitz yes yeah
she's a brilliant lady she was explaining yeah she was explaining like how the money that went
missing when donald rumsfeld did that press conference the day before 9 11 said there was
four trillion dollars missing from the from from the receipts for the pentagon i think his quote was 2.3
she has opened up this whole area now the thing about the two point first it was 2.6 trillion in
the summer of 01 that was 2.3 and that number actually they supposedly got it down to zero uh if you want
to believe that but but but the what they really were talking about as i understand it and katherine
that 2.3 trillion dollars went missing you're talking about unresolved uh discrepancies in the
payments so you've got all these different accounting systems within the pentagon and you've got uh so
money that's gotten siphoned out and what is the exact number but it's 2.3 trillion dollars would be
you know the pentagon's official budget in 2001 was something like 300 billion so you're talking
and she described and katherine forgive me if i get this slightly wrong she said i want to look at the
uh the full budget of hud is that it and they're like you're not authorized and she
uh said the hell i'm not authorized so she said they eventually wheeled in she described the library carts
remember this was uh it was it was like designed by default physically impossible to audit the us
where these people are uh they do not adhere to the rule of law they are above the rule of law yes and
priesthood guys in charge and they own everything they control everything but in the last couple of
parts of that are equally important you have to have the people need to believe that they have a
in our system but the reality has always been uh there's always been elites there's always been the guys on
top and throughout all of the 19th and 20th and now 21st century their goal has always been to figure
out how do we let the people keep believing these little fairy tales while we keep running things the
way we've always done and that's really what the system is and so now it's a system that is inherently
everything's now out in the open you can't really um yeah everything's got to be kind of tossed out
there for the people and it's all a series of manipulations one after the net it's just we get
sure there will be a lot of really terrible consequences for divulging some of the secret
the only uh book length treatment on like how could disclosure happen what would how would it how would
themselves protect themselves to protect the system that's in place right sure they made you rationalize
gonna believe in that uh however so let's say now in 2010 when we wrote this the country was not nearly as
polarized as it is now so in 2010 we're envisioning the president goes and tells the world well you
you know there are people far more conversant with that than me but yes i'm my dad worked at the world
trade center back in september 01 he had the day off my dad had the day off my dad was a retired new
york city cop at the time and uh he had a really cool job as a fire safety director as they were called
at the twin towers yeah he shared his job with a really nice man who i knew who was killed that day
one of my theories on 9 11 is that um that people that were closest to it and affected by it the most
emotionally and personally are the ones that have and i could be wrong here though i think you proved
this wrong but those are the ones that have the least capacity to entertain any no you're right
any of the alternate ideas of what happened right that that don't go with the narrative right they
they seem to be the ones that go with the narrative the one the people who are more disconnected from it
in fact i did a i wrote a little tv series for gaia television um number of years ago on the history
deeply upset by it and then what you do this is the genius of it you find the solution immediately
whether it's hitler invading poland and saying we were attacked by the poles which is what he did
or any other there's a lot of false flags america is the king of false flags especially after world war
ii and uh all the covert ops that we have done but anyway you create a catastrophe a trauma
that people freak out over and you identify it you don't you connect the emotion to the intellect
so you have the emotional connection to some kind of here's the explanation and once once you get that
and i used to talk to my dad on the phone about this and um i have to be careful because i could
are you looking into i just saw this pbs thing and it just showed he talked about the pancake theory
that was put out the total theory but it was that was put out within a week of the event this guy
that theory roughly the the planes crashing caused a pancaking effect oh yeah of the one floor on the
other floor and all the way down it did not happen that way at all but it was so anyway that goes on to
uh and then he he was like he really had a struggle with the fact that his son was going
all into this alternative theory about 9 11 and i talk with him every week on the phone and um
um yeah what it would look like and what the incentives would be for disclosure and how um
he hits the scene in 2015 basically actually it will do better on youtube if you say trump yeah well
and you know i mean how do i how do you talk about this without uh 50 of the population
basically you have a guy who comes in that is the ultra most polarizing political figure that we've had
and you've got half the country half the world maybe saying i don't believe you yeah they're not
about the congressional thing and yeah skeptics will just how they'll just jump on anything
probably in that camp where if the top top top level of government came out and said aliens are real
i would probably think the opposite or something there's some sort of weird mix right i mean there's
you cannot and whatever the government tells them they they think the opposite is true you're probably
going to be right to a certain extent think of i think of the ufo reality as a mountain right
it's a sliver that will provide the cover your ass rule very effectively to make you look as good as
hell for this and you know what can i say but i do think that a lot of the people who are pushing
and i think he's he's i think he's on the right side of this that's my belief people can say you're
you know you're naive whatever uh lou elizondo i'll say the same thing uh christopher mellon these are
guy like elizondo people complain that he's harps on the national security thing but he's
nature you can never not expect that but um but there are definitely the secrets the real hardcore
out in the public and start talking about this stuff to whether or not or do you even think about
extent yeah yeah and have more or less people in the government trying to encourage them look the
that department but they provide no no background where you can verify anything like the first thing
uh secondly you know that you have to not jump to conclusions probably the first best thing you could do
this is why like i'm not always really comfortable talking about the every like latest little story
to go chasing after the latest headline yeah yeah which is a problem because ideally what you want to do
than you do who know more about the history of aviation than you do who know more about the
a little controversial it was much more controversial in the past and uh part of it is like you
of the consistency of what he said over a number of years the fact that i never felt he
was telling the truth yeah it seems to me that that he would be a great candidate for the cia to choose
to come there because he's so easily discreditable because of his background and some of the stuff
that he was yeah yeah that's right um like the the the brothel and the other stuff yeah he did uh
right whatever he did and there was a weird thing about his wife that happened to the first wife
this thing but then if you're looking at it from the reverse side of the lens if you're some
intelligence operation trying to do something and protect yourself in case the cat gets out of the
if you hear his story like the way he tells it he made the initiative to do all of this so he he was
very unhappy with his employment situation at the time he had met edward teller right the vendor of the
fuse for the h-bomb and i think the original dr strangelove i i suspect uh in los alamos in the
like he's a brilliant guy he developed his jet car right and it made the cover of the los alamos
lazar's like i'm gonna and he he was able to get a the job with egng which got him out to s4 and then
the only reason that he went public is he uh bob lazar forgive me if i'm getting any of this wrong
of his at the time and they start going out to watch the uh displays of the craft and i think
the second time out they got caught and he got into some serious trouble and you know had that not
stayed in in the stayed in the in the biz and i could have but he would have been a lifer and we've
he doesn't seem to give a he says what he says did you watch the interview with him or the
ever ever ever believed lazar's story i called him a fraud you know when i first uh the first time i
i wasn't yet 40 and anyway so i meet with stan and he wanted the first thing you want to know about me
was what was my position on that's the litmus test yeah and i was like at that time i hadn't even
i wasn't even really conversant with lazar's story i had just worked my ass off to get the story of ufos
up to 1973 that was the end of my first volume and uh lazar you know he was after that and i was
if i had the proper perspective on lazar and i actually i've always i mean i really appreciate
off to the side until i felt that i had spent enough time to research it yeah and um yeah at that time
this is still in the early 2000s in the late 90s and but a lot of lazar's interviews were available
he doesn't do any interviews no but in the early 90s he did quite a bit why do you think do you have
any idea why stopped or do you have any uh theories it's hard for me to speak for him uh the impression
that one gets is that he just got sick and tired of the field and that there was you know it's like time
also there's all these other whistleblowers that come out and one of the most recent ones that really
screwed my mind up was um the guy who went on jesse michael's podcast who was talking about
kidnapping kids from indonesia after an earthquake and then michael herrera is that the one so herrera
and i jesse michael's great podcast it's the herrera it's basically the herrera story yeah right he i mean
have it but you've got the wrong interpretation of it i think like it's not a human trafficking kind of
thing sure i think he got a kind of he so yeah so jesse brought up brought that up about the human
for children who were left-handed and homosexual because they have the highest psychic psychic
abilities and it's like what the fuck are you talking about well hey leonardo da vinci was one
on this one i just haven't uh i mean i'm aware of the story and we mentioned stan friedman stan
maybe we can we can move on from there but that's the problem with a lot of the elements in this field
you're dealing with i mean by its very nature the ufo let me just keep saying ufo because i'm so used
but i am absolutely convinced we don't fully appreciate the depth of what it really means
i mean look imagine being across the table not from me but from one of them and imagine they have
into all the little avenues and recesses and like and they don't laugh at your jokes so we're gonna run
for the hills and they're and and even if they look like us like that's intimidating that there's
right the ufo whether it be abduction or a sighting or anything that's like there's no solid evidence
one way or the other that you know for a fact is true oh wow prob probably uh i don't i don't know
of tough on the spot a story that has no whether it be like a like a i mean other than the fact that
you know obviously we have like things like the tic tac where right it's like a we know that's
we've had people testify and there's there's the the footage like the go fast and the fleer stuff but
know for a fact well one i mean this isn't a ufo incident but this was the davis wilson notes that
came out in 2019 that that document i knew it was real and there were a lot of people at the time
off at the rest of the research community because i was for a little while the only the only person
really yes yes he mentioned knowledge of it at the time when at when um the ass when um
the astronaut died when uh no prior before before that yeah i think in his volume that covers uh 2000 to
he did in 2019 2020 and then just just at the briefing elizondo this is one good thing elizondo did he
if you really listen to him even in the briefing it's quite obvious he makes it clear without saying
talk more about the military aspect of this uso stuff yeah yeah yeah um what before we do that one of my
about it with jesse when he was on here that there was a decommissioned i think it was a navy base in the
sosus when it was developed the sound undersea uh sonar uh system and it was originally set up in that
area like near the bahamas so i don't know if that's what he's referring to no this was a base
um steve if you pull up the podcast i did with jesse it's in the timestamps i think it's its own
talking about the atlantic oh tech yeah oh tech oh tech that's what it was okay
so um apparently what what i for the way i understand it is they had some sort of
what he has to say yeah one of the things that i try to do with this study is two things what so one
is track the cases and then the other is to try to understand the technological military political
and other related developments that went on at the same time so when i try to structure this book
these books um i break them into chapters and at the beginning of each chapter i try to highlight like
the development of a lot of the navy systems goes has gone into that section of of each book uh the
related it's all similar it's basically their system for probing into the world under the water so off
the top of my head i don't really know what else to say about it but okay it's as that description there
says uh secretive testing of underwater vehicles yeah they they called it the underwater area 51.
region here and so the fact that they've got something down there in the bahamas i just think it's kind of
interesting because that's a very very active area for usos in general one of the fascinating things
was a part of this base somehow well there's an underwater version of the nro um and it's n uro
uh national underwater um forget the acronym there's a a brilliant uh uf uh ufo podcaster on youtube uh
the national underwater reconnaissance yeah that's it yeah responsible for underwater reconnaissance and
operates primarily in the waters of the soviet union started in 1969 and it's there's a history
against the soviet union out of the sea of what coasts off the coast of kamchatka there and uh they
into soviet uh communications and this is back in like 1970 71 when they did that using uh the halibut
i think that was the summer the submersible they used oh wow i think that was the one
or maybe the sea i think the halibut i can't remember but they um were able to get very valuable
know they're they are the underwater nro they are incredibly secretive yeah i heard that there's like
that are within the government or the deep state i'm sure that we'll probably we'll probably never
know about like i never i never would imagine i never knew that the nro had anything to do with ufos
well they're a good candidate for it actually but we didn't know the nro existed until the 1990s
they existed in total secrecy for over 30 years yeah uh the nsa you know jokingly referred to as no
such agency was completely secret for more than its first decade until the 70s it came out right well
there was a book in 1964 called the invisible government uh that mentioned it it was one book
that and but no i don't really think it was truly appreciated what the nsa was and then it came out more in
the 70s and but it's still like to this day it's quite secretive you know but that was a secret
in all this that was still completely off off the boards no one knew about it really so i believe
ago i think that's right so you've what we really have what the united states is of course is a a
massive empire that's trying to dominate has always tried to dominate the world especially since world
war ii and as a result puts institutions and agencies in place that it doesn't think the
fits was telling me about is all the money that's going to these underground bunkers and underground
uh like basically like underground cities that are connected by highways all around the country and
she's saying that it's very possible that like trillions of dollars are going to the going to these
things yeah i've i've spoken with her about this in fact uh off the record and it's a real possibility
you know i i um used to know there was a researcher uh by the name of richard souder dr richard souder
and uh is he the guy that was killed no not too much i think he's still alive okay yeah you might be thinking of um
spazzing out of the souder yeah so richard souder did uh a number of books in the 90s on in the early
so he looked into the um technologies that we know exist to go deep under the ground
and to go deep under the ocean floor and that this is not an impossibility um we actually have
the ability all you really need is you need the ability to dig and if you're going to have a base
permanently there you've got to be able to extract oxygen from the water but we've had that technology
that's what nuclear submarines are able to they're not they're not under the water with uh you know
supplies of oxygen tanks they have to extract oxygen out of the waters i think it's called
it's theoretical one thing that richard found was he ran into this uh guy who did illustrations for the
u.s navy back in the late 60s and he was asked to develop a series of illustrations uh portraying
the uh prov bird lives there um so we don't want to agree with you i'm trying to consider
but i wouldn't doubt that it's that it's a possibility yeah uh thinking of the other guy schneider phil schneider
phil schneider of course might be the guy you're thinking oh yes phil schneider uh that's a whole
and the fact that if there is some breakaway civilization it's most likely going to be these
bankers yeah like top level bankers that control all the money i think that's got to be true and
an open window in the room yeah and the money's just flying out right right so uh yeah she says
it's like we don't have a closed system it's open and it's that's so uh that could really be the case
than i can about it but the way she describes it seems quite quite logical and then you have these
all this work gets tons of money from the intelligence community and the u.s government
to do all of this work and this is probably responsible for a lot of the money that he's
all the nasa space missions and just looking through them and he wasn't just some wide-eyed
uh quite explicit quite explicit about uh bizarre anomalies there's a the popovich couple marina and
pavel popovich of the soviet union both highly regarded uh cosmonauts in that country both spoke quite
a wave of the hand as he seems to do i i find very curious yeah have you heard of the uh the guy who
allegedly works for him who works for the nro who uh i think diana pisolka wrote about him in her first
read him into all this super secret stuff talked about all these crazy oh this the high level nasa
apparently like mapped the moon and then uh there was this other guy um i think his name was tim who
canaveral which is like two and a half hours from here yeah and said that when you go through the
some of the stuff i could believe i could believe what she wrote i don't i can't say that i know but i
chris bledsoe and quite a few of them have come out and and made the assertion that he is like a
uh a couple of years ago i think it might have been it might have been the first extended interview
family they're very good people and his uh original sighting the one from 20 2007 i don't think there's
attest to that certainly there's him there's his son and the other witnesses um i think all have come out
i i don't think there's any reason to doubt that and that's an extraordinary ufo the org stuff uh there
was a craft that they definitely saw in the woods in north carolina yeah yeah yeah so i have no reason
to doubt that at all and and the subsequent activities that have had that have happened on
um the thing that just raises my hairs is the fact that all these people from intelligence and and
and they're they're screwing with them yeah i love benowitz okay the other possibility is that they
would that not be a possibility one of the things about about stephen greer is that you know he
develops these protocols he calls them the ce5 protocol yeah yeah okay so people have different
phenomenon that's real and there is no question as well that greer did get interest from the national
security state i think partly because of this you know one of the things he talked about and it's true
as far as i can see it's absolutely true is he met with a gentleman named john peterson of the arlington
institute who was for many years on the short list of you know dod secretaries and things like that
he was one but he's he's up there uh and also the then director of the cia james wolsey and their wives
all of their power they went to some dinner together yeah they had dinner and this is i think in the late
uh in uh the early 90s you know under clinton yeah so why would they do that i mean that's you know
in the early 90s is there any is there any proof that he had that meeting yes there is because the
argument is over what the what it constituted uh guerrero was called it a briefing yeah and they
who knew him you know he was this guy who had just gotten into the ufo field yeah um medical doctor
talking about crop circles in england in the early 90s he did a little bit of that and
he was basically making the case that um essentially what the news article showed was uh the description of
greer the publishing in the newspaper of greer how he got married when he got married to his wife and all
this stuff and it was like a little blurb in the newspaper how he got married at the baha'i institute
in haifa and i've never heard him talk about any of this stuff and this was like in the i think it was
in the 70s or late 70s maybe and this guy was making the case and that according because that he
just this is part of the territory when you're trying to navigate these things in the public and
you know it's just part of this it's just i feel like it's part of the things that you have to sort of
put out there and question when you're put in the place of of trying to evaluate whether these people
it's of profound significance and so that means there are people who have a stake um on the pro side
and on the on the con side that want to keep this where it is because it is it's highly disruptive and so
assets in academia when appropriate they will use their assets wherever they can within the community itself
if need be and there's always been very high paranoia within the ufo community
yeah uh specifically like that i can absolutely say they're working for the uh the government
or the intel community i've had suspicions i continue to have suspicions and i i'm not going
to get into that but well if anyone wins it's the intelligence agencies because because i mean
according to the youtube comments i'm an op and then i question i question myself i've been called it
works in the uh if there is some sort of uh general opportunity in the intelligence community to cover up
secrets the fact that everyone on social media thinks everyone is working for an intelligence agency is a
a bit if you don't mind so i um you know i got into this whole field in the 90s when conspiracy theories
jim mars had already written his great book um crossfire the plot to kill kennedy i was good friends with
jim mars i loved jim mars he was a great man uh but anyway like the 90s were it was you were kind of
me 9 11 was what put me over the top by the way 9 11 put me and i think a lot of people full on in
the government as actively lying about basically every single thing like i went there and i'm still
there but the problem is when you think that everything is an op so that's a bit of a problem
for me too like uh i said earlier like i almost wrote a book on false flags in the history of it so
that's ever existed it's a really dangerous solvent for the a certain amount of social cohesion we have
to have you have to have there's got to be a way to have some trust in things that come at you but the
makes a claim about anything frequently from a lot of people the first thing you'll hear is oh that
not we're not listening the one thing we're not doing is is hearing their message we're not actually
listening to their information or not evaluating the information we're judging the person because we
think they're an op and they work for this organization here and the fact is when you look at the ufo
knowledge sphere over many years go back to the 1950s this is a period i've studied a lot
there were a lot of military insiders in the 1950s who were totally of the belief that we need to get
for the army or the navy am i supposed to then say oh well they've got some kind of they've got an agenda to
their information and the fact is that there are people from every part of the spectrum here in this
are they on the good side or the bad side that's that's not good because there's information coming
who have a pragmatic view of all of this stuff and are able to take the information from all these cases
much younger i didn't think of myself as a pragmatist by nature i didn't really know that but over the
that the world is you know i had a i grew up with a very liberal mother and a pretty conservative father
uh you know as as we're in the world today i i just i take it as a given that there's always going to
be people people out there who don't see the world the way i do and what am i supposed to like condemn them
uh and just say well you're you're morally suspect because you have a different perspective on the
world than i do that's kind of ridiculous but yeah we do it we do it all the time people on the right
and the left they all do it and it's uh it's very unfortunate we get all apocalyptic about things yeah
levels but uh the fact is that it is is not for me to um to write someone off just because they see
the world differently than i do right well richard that was three hours you're kidding that was
it's in uh ebook it's paperback and hardcover and this week i expect the audio book finally to be out
speak highly enough about the members of the site uh and i got my own youtube channel it's uh just
of the jfk assassination well he was definitely killed in a conspiracy in my opinion yes i would
definitely lay the uh most of it at the cia and uh the the deep state um i think kennedy's assassination
i liken it to agatha christie's murder on the orient express and plot spoiler everyone did it in that book
everyone did everyone had a motive to kill this guy and that's jfk he was the his biggest problem
i feel is that he really believed he was the president who could run things and he ran into a
you had ufos are part of that that's not right a trivial part of it not the whole thing though no
no i think the uh the nuclear issue you know he was talking about nuclear disarmament with the
with the soviet yep so what he was showing and then cuba that whole thing yep and shutting down
famously he wanted to scatter the cia to the winds and uh he tried you know he fired alan dulles and
was the ultimate motivation i think the ultimate motivation was they were like no way we're gonna
let this guy run the country for another month because he is he is a danger on too many levels yeah
that's what they thought here's my book i totally agree there we go the history of usos
all of the cases i've written them all i'm happy with how they read i keep adding new cases but uh
questions for our uh beautiful patreon subscribers so we'll do that separately from the podcast we'll
rip through a couple of these questions if you don't mind yeah um gladly but that's all for the