has i don't know where he is now because he wrote his first like basically he became known
years i think it was easy to interpret all of his work as saying all of this phenomenon is uh secret
different places as to like what i think is actually happening when we talk about ufos or now uap
secret which is kind of a classic in the ufo field and uh it was the subtitle of that book that really
ufos departments that i was looking into and uh ufo connections there and i thought you know this is
like a completely like unofficial version of history here is this true or is this nonsense right and
i'm going to spend two or three months of my life and i want to find out is there something to this or is
there not something to this is this a waste of time uh like all of the other people in the academic
community were assuming at that time or is there something here because here i was i was studying
trivial claims and i just thought what i don't like is having a big question mark hanging over
that uh this phenomena is uh being seen at uh such altitudes and over sensitive military installations
we're being invaded so i read enough of these documents early on to think there's absolutely something that is at least worth
jason i think you know who jason georgiani is right i had him on recently and he was explaining to me
that doesn't debunk the roswell i think corso is very much uh stating that roswell did happen as
a third possibility which is that you know when you're we're being all theoretical because like i wasn't
a lot of these things material science uh i think notoriously is said to be one of the most important
you know just the other day hal putoff is on rogan and he's talking yeah yeah and and hal has talked
about the so-called meta material so what is the meta material it's this artifact that uh was sent out
talking about but really what it seemed like is a kind of anti-gravity anti-gravity type of a thing so
words this is really interesting to me because you know normally for years and years you're thinking
creating this crazy like heart-shaped propulsion uh pocket right oh this is above my my pay grade
how these craft do what they do this episode of the podcast is brought to you by my good friends at
getting a decent night's sleep is between 9 p.m and 2 a.m before one of my kids wakes me up and i actually
after midnight which is why i started drinking evening being by verso it has three grams of glycine
russians this is not made by us someone else is operating this we did not have control over it
as i was able to scrounge them up at the time this is back in the 1990s and um and i published my first
security state knows about something that is not from this earth yeah and has that conclusion evolved
astronaut and but he said to me look your your theory about the cover-up is not exactly right
believe that but maybe more back then and he said this is like i don't know 2001 2002 early he said
classified elements to this but there is also an element that is beyond government yeah and it's
kind of nebulous like who are these guys is it all is it all think tanks and corporations or is it
is it's a that is still an open question in my opinion oh really well to the extent that what
the reserves kudos for that but the the basic question is what so paul for people who don't
i think the claim was that essentially like 30 000 foot view is that he was a conduit of disinformation
is what was paul bennewitz actually observing so was he observing um advanced u.s defense systems that
the uh history of violations of sensitive airspace of u.s bases across the entire u.s this is an old
playing it right out of water they're going to be here in 15 years or something is that magic man i
you know how they were doing the underground testing for they were mining uh is this a myrna
hansen case is that there's a all this was going on at this time so there were cattle mutilations
benowitz got like really really really deep into this that is for sure and uh he hooked up with uh
to guard the secrets you have to be thinking what is our exposure here what do we have to worry about
is if they shake the tree enough is something going to fall out of that tree that's really compromising
all in the late 70s this all happened at once prong number one was foia prong number two is crash
is probably true is you muddy the waters and you you um put out information that would
sow the seed of doubt into documents and this is one argument about the mj 12 documents that came
against paul benowitz that we were just talking about could be part of that as well this is like
do something about that and which is the case like to this day new documents may come out and you've
already got people saying is this real is this lies it's this disinfo it's amazing to watch it's very
but yeah i mean it's we're going beyond ufos here or uap this is in a whole array of things i have no
doubt but uh the ufo subject which is the one that i'm most interested in i think definitely
that uh the national security crowd is just going to walk away from the table and say oh yeah here
so what i believe is happening in terms of all of this like this has been an argument for almost a
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of uh ufo information to serve their needs or what i believe is we're looking at a factional struggle
but to some extent but there's still the the secrecy group if we can call them that that is
to that man but why is that he's worked very closely for many years with hal putoff he's worked
defense intelligence agency he had run the dia and this is connected you interviewed stephen greer so
who was uh head of intelligence for the joint chiefs of staff at that time this is april 1997
and they give gives a presentation and wilson and i know this is absolutely true said i'm going to
if you want but the short version is he finds a number not just one several special access programs
that is ultra ultra secret programs dealing with et tech he contacts the managers of one of them
private contractor we don't know that it was lockheed but that's what the betting money is so he goes
to meet with them and he says it is your we're getting back to eric davis i promise you okay wilson says
it is it is your oversight that i am not overseeing this program you need to bring me in you don't
yes right and he finds out like this is they have a an intact saucer according to what they said to him
who are allowed to be honest and it's like 500 people and wilson's in in uh is reading the list
to be this is this is part of my purview and they're like no it isn't he says well i'll complain
2006 and seven six seven 2007 and then um and i read the portion where wilson is telling davis
it's italicized and i remembered reading it struck me like it's very profound you know this is not made
like so eric davis is and he's also part of this legacy remote viewing program too right he was a part of
put off he was with put off and and sarfati and all these sri guys is that right no i don't know
we can get into that too i i'm not an expert in remote viewing but my wife is a pretty damn good
absolutely amazing yeah it's amazing and it's it's real that is absolutely real yeah it was crazy
davis is saying that yes absolutely but what everyone jumped on was uh unfortunately and this
is not to uh to disparage lou elizondo because i personally like lou and i respect him a lot but he
point is like all right people can make mistakes and maybe you could say like you shouldn't make
okay but this is what excuse me you're hearing people have uh you know focus on i'm talking about
with you today is what day is may 5th monday may 5th cinco de mayo baby yeah that's right um just a
fascinating man who is this is a guy who is advisor to four u.s presidents including kennedy
with jesse when you get it i mean everyone's like that up we're so busy no one has time but that is a
there's a new a new one and i don't know how powerful this is or not but uh dr gregory oh man
uh but he supposedly and look this has not been vetted i mean you know but this is all just new
it was like from up there from outer space so it's it's a new story is it true is it not true i don't know
yeah more and more new information is absolutely coming out at a rate that is unprecedented we've
never in all of the history of ufo research and that's this is something i can speak very
confidently about there has never been anything like the time that we're in now this is this is
unprecedented and where it will lead is a really good question yeah yeah so so over the last couple
yeah i get like this ufo fatigue um and then i also go back and forth between like is it really
aliens is it time travelers is it darpa and like you know my recent thing has been like this is just
nobody can no like it doesn't matter what the truth is because there's just everything's out there
this phenomenon is from non-human intelligence the reason i believe that is i look at the earliest
that we know of at the time in the 40s were looking into this and there just is there's nothing
more and more support for the idea of a 1933 italian recovery right italian this is i think
uh perspectives coming in on this uh the real man who researched this is an italian researcher named
is so you you think the the fact that these cases or crash recoveries retrievals whatever you want to
from elsewhere they've set up shop in some manner which i think is a total totally possible i would
up with some version of warp drive mathematically the problem is finding the amount of energy
is uh it's it's uh what's the word it's the perfect terraforming device it's one i think it's one
exact the exact uh size comparison to the sun and the exact distance from the sun sun is equal so it
it if if that's a significant part the fact that it's a stabilizer of our environment is very
the distance the distance ratio and the size ratio find that and then it is you know it is the perfect
that's that can't be very common now the universe is big enough that you could think all right maybe
one out of a million systems might have something like this or whatever it is and that could still be
this at all but i i tend to think that life anywhere is going naturally to want to increase its complexity
is one necessary evolutionary adaptation that would be useful for any life form and not just humans
forms they probably were intelligence is always increasing yes and uh you know our body plan just
forms have done because i i suspect that that what life what intelligent life will do is it is guided
the system and we're serving the system that is becoming ever more complex and and that intelligence will
actually ever thinks that or if i'm the only person but this is what i i've come to believe like we serve
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because all that we do is we adapt to the environments that we live in and we are now radically changing
probably uh a speeding up of of human evolution is probably happening right i think it is right
going to look like uh the you know the problem with our future is that every every new technological
uh is really it's something i've been thinking about a lot recently and it really came it was
one of the ideas that i've been throwing around is the idea of like this this esp telekinesis having
feel like that is radically we have senses that are radically have been diminished diminished and atrophied
over millennia my wife and i talk about this a lot this is like our one of our pet theories that we've
are uh the brain capacity of the human being today is less than it was among um our ancestors even more
is this is material that i'm just barely i shouldn't even really talk about but you hear people talking
in this solar system um all the different species that exist on earth i think out of so this is kind
his most recent one but one of them is called the extra tempestrial model and he basically explains
you know having a background in in this stuff and evolution is that there's 200 species of cat there's 200
so we are like 0.0001 of all species human beings on earth so that is extremely rare for earth which is
an extremely rare planet being such a you know having the moon the way it is being this having so
same atmosphere the same how many of them are water worlds or not and what is the likelihood that those
he's talking about but no i think that our body plan is probably not unique to us and i think if you're
that you have to have is an ecosystem that can support enough diversity of life for this to happen
agree with all of that i think that's entirely right but the fact that our body plan is an anomaly i
don't agree with that i think our body plan is probably i don't really you know do we really truly
understand what is the mechanism of evolution what is it really is it truly just random mutation or is
way through adaptation through the need for survival and luck yeah but like this is if you're going to
might just be the best way to do it because what you need is an ability to manipulate your
than that i don't know of anything that's been better uh and then the thing is once our you know
could break this stone wow this is really useful so that encourages further intellectual development
just just just even napping stones is like that's a skill so you're working cognitively here and so i
it's certainly less than 120. it's a one to 43 000 is the is the moon's ratio to the uh what the distance
to the sun and the earth is similar at one to eleven thousand seven hundred i don't know what that means
i don't know google what's the distance what is the distance of the earth to the sun
island called adak island out there and there is a case from the summer of 1945 where a u.s
really intrigued by it and i thought to myself this is back this is three years ago so in 2022
good case that i consider good is actually only from 1717 so like 300 years ago it's a pretty good case
it's like a little dance like where they're observing us we're observing them and and there is reason to
you can still see things so like one thing i noticed is one category was i broke it down into
websites where there's a lot of information so one is the national ufo reporting center that's run by
which is nice because i'm not a mufon investigator but they uh they knew what kind of work i was doing
are people seeing these uf usos for the most part is there is there is there one spot in the world
where they seem to be most mostly condensed to or confined to and second second question is what
is we're all like we live on the land we're landlubbers and so usually you're not out in the middle
base which is most of them it's long along the coast that's where people about like um oil rigs
there's quite a few from the gulf here quite a few and uh one of my favorite ones this is from the
it's like a small city you know it's the best place to hide it really is the oceans are
i think he's on our list steve he's coming on the podcast is he really yeah he's good good good shout
the pressure is constant so that could be that could be helpful it's it's certainly protective
like if you are from a place where maybe our solar radiation is not necessarily the right thing for you
you come from somewhere else the ocean is a protective place for that it's uh temperature
for hot spots so i'll answer that one is puerto rico and uh particularly i think i think uh all around
who is reporting these cases in aguadilla or around northern puerto rico aguadilla yeah that's
oh wow tilted so that's that is on is that northeast south is that oriented the right way or is that
reverse it's northern plate is over here yeah so that north is to the right correct yeah yeah and
that would mean that agua dia is where on the top left top top top right excuse me top right okay i
are there military people that are reporting any of this stuff yes yes absolutely uh well reporting is
a variety of ways yeah so puerto rico is one hot spot uh we hear a lot of talk about california's
going into canada uh florida where we are is extremely very very active on all sides of the peninsula
out of the amazon it's massive uh this is incredibly ecologically important and rich like estuary
that is not necessarily an alien thing that this could be some kind of really uh like a diabolical
i'm going to say something that's not accurate okay i see um but yeah this is look this is a subject where
uh the name of the captain i cannot recall his name chevalier something uh he wrote in his log this is so
there this is at um it's after midnight so it's dark uh there was i looked into this there was like a half
he wrote in a very matter-of-fact way it was like 1717 17 17. wow yeah this is way before submarines
obviously uh absolutely and uh the 18th century which that is part of that i don't know there's not
in his log it's 1825 his name was andrew bloxum we've got his name his his um book is published
very rational man and a very intelligent guy and this just is this one bizarre entry in his
from uh is he what's that there i i found the story uh block sam with a with an x where is it i
just found it oh you got it yeah well this is the story good good deal yeah any what does it got you
got illustrations or what yeah i think this is the illustration of that event oh or at least it's
deck of the ship by the way so fast forward about 150 years to 1971 okay this is going into my next volume
uh and uh the uss john f kennedy aircraft carrier so is near puerto rico just saying uh they had just
is a very involved series of uh exercises and they had just completed that it's 8 30 july 2nd 1971
name is james copp with a k and he also reported this to a couple of other um websites uh at the time
it's the end of the world so he's thinking what is going on he goes he's able to go out and look
and he sees almost what is described in in bloxam's account from 1825 he sees a glowing orange sphere
and you get this same type of glowing globular sphere wow yeah like what is that right what is that
and it's not 100 confirmed but that's what i i think is probably the case but yeah well we the tic
sound in the water so soviet submarines and i think this is most active in the northern atlantic
apparently and wonder is this americans are they what is this is some kind of new technology we have
kind of detection one of the things that just fascinates me about uh these usos is like whenever
i want to feel what is it like to be there so imagine it's the cold war it's the 1960s or 70s and
is my microphone am i okay here oh is he good see this up am i okay close a little bit just in case
people if they do exist if there is anyone who has the whole picture the whole every piece of the pie
could if that can exist knowing that right about 15 16 years ago i think i coined a phrase which is
in uh the study of human civilizations is a very um kind of i i once read uh the condensed version
something that is really not popular anymore he did these meta historians like he was looking at the grand
progress of of human society and what is it that makes a civilization and so he did this comparative
study of human civilizations anyway i was reading that at the time this is 2007 2008 and um i thought you
um based on roswell tech or whatever other advanced tech that is kept secret but we had examples
but could you develop i i asked myself based on ufo tech that is kept secret
day you know and you can't really talk about it so that i think is probably that was my my vision of it
independent i mean that's a really good question and you're getting into a key area which is how
what is the structure of this secrecy for real like who who's running it who's who's the guy in charge
answer to right exactly and you know this is i don't know i don't have that answer this is
you know what we're speculating about with companies that have all this crazy tech is is not that far
off yeah a couple of things so first of all everyone should know who katherine austin fits is she's
she's a real a great benefactor to our civilization and she is a gem and a brilliant individual and a
money that's gotten siphoned out and what is the exact number but it's 2.3 trillion dollars would be
uh the full budget of hud is that it and they're like you're not authorized and she
idea that they're all all this money is going to some stuff that we know and and then well think of
and it's egalitarian and yeah that's that's what we actually have is it's a pretend democracy and both
way we've always done and that's really what the system is and so now it's a system that is inherently
propagandized 24 7. yeah basically what it is sure yeah and it's built on lies and that's why they can't
totally different world uh it feels like but but um one thing that i've always felt is that a genuine
reveal of this whole ufo uap subject like a true reveal is highly highly destabilizing really too
yes 100 100 and but this is why there is an absolutely like we are never going to give this up
polarized as it is now so in 2010 we're envisioning the president goes and tells the world well you
one of my theories on 9 11 is that um that people that were closest to it and affected by it the most
and what you're doing is this horrible horrible thing happens and people are naturally going to be
deeply upset by it and then what you do this is the genius of it you find the solution immediately
whether it's hitler invading poland and saying we were attacked by the poles which is what he did
or any other there's a lot of false flags america is the king of false flags especially after world war
comes out and says this is how it happened like no you have no freaking idea what was it what was
pbs which is total cia op anyway and my dad bought into it of course he did you know i don't blame him
basically you have a guy who comes in that is the ultra most polarizing political figure that we've had
you cannot and whatever the government tells them they they think the opposite is true you're probably
thing right right you think so yeah so what you'll do is they'll take like a little freaking sliver
and say here it is and it would be a true sliver right but it's certainly an incomplete and i'm sure
it's pro is almost certainly going to follow that model i still maintain and i i've caught a lot of
army counterintelligence what do you expect this is what you pay him to do yeah like that's his job
yeah he his salary is to look for threats how do you expect someone who's to do that not not to do
like i can't give you a mathematical equation to say this is he fulfills all of these criteria there
best thing that you can i everything you said is totally on point i would just say there are certain
you need to know is did this person actually work they said they worked like did they did they do that
this is why like i'm not always really comfortable talking about the every like latest little story
this so long people want to know what do you think it's really i've noticed that with this topic it is
to go chasing after the latest headline yeah yeah which is a problem because ideally what you want to do
is you want to stop and wait and go slow yeah so that other researchers who know more about propulsion
a little controversial it was much more controversial in the past and uh part of it is like you
during those years i have a tremendous regard for george so um i ended up you know this is how i made my
early 1980s i think 1982 and had a very good back and forth conversation because lazar lazar is a crazy
the only reason that he went public is he uh bob lazar forgive me if i'm getting any of this wrong
know maybe they they might have psychologically profiled him and think this is a guy that
this is still in the early 2000s in the late 90s and but a lot of lazar's interviews were available
that one gets is that he just got sick and tired of the field and that there was you know it's like time
to move on it's like i put my information out there this is a crazy community which it is and was
kidnapping kids from indonesia after an earthquake and then michael herrera is that the one so herrera
their diets somehow i don't know if they're keeping them against their wills but this guy is talking
now who knows but is there any story is there any crazy story that's out there
one way or the other that you know for a fact is true oh wow prob probably uh i don't i don't know
it's kind of like it's grainy footage whatever and it's kind of like take it for what it is it could be
he did in 2019 2020 and then just just at the briefing elizondo this is one good thing elizondo did he
something that is highly classified you know they were private notes so it's not like an official
government document but it is discussing something that is extremely sensitive let's take this opportunity i got
questions that i've been wanting to ask you is um do you i'm sure you do know about um this base i talked
involved with it i could put into my second or third volume atlantic under is that what you were
so um apparently what what i for the way i understand it is they had some sort of
what he has to say yeah one of the things that i try to do with this study is two things what so one
is track the cases and then the other is to try to understand the technological military political
yeah one interesting thing about it is its location so that's a extremely active area one
puerto rico is a major hot spot that's why i can tell you florida is a major hot spot area this whole
he also told me was there is this uh there's this secretive nro character who was tied into nasa who
into soviet uh communications and this is back in like 1970 71 when they did that using uh the halibut
ago i think that's right so you've what we really have what the united states is of course is a a
surprise me yeah yeah it's crazy stuff man it really is and another thing that um catherine
fits was telling me about is all the money that's going to these underground bunkers and underground
and uh is he the guy that was killed no not too much i think he's still alive okay yeah you might be thinking of um
yeah i know his case extremely well yeah and it'll come to me in a second sure why my my brain is
and to go deep under the ocean floor and that this is not an impossibility um we actually have
the ability all you really need is you need the ability to dig and if you're going to have a base
hydrolysis whatever it is and they're they're able to do that so they're at least theoretically it seems
is it is it you know how true is it that's a question and you know speaking against that
and the fact that if there is some breakaway civilization it's most likely going to be these
to do all of this work and this is probably responsible for a lot of the money that he's
there is a tremendous amount of actually very good space-based evidence for anomalous activity out
canaveral which is like two and a half hours from here yeah and said that when you go through the
times a number of times and um is that believable yeah that's totally believable yeah yeah i could
chris bledsoe and quite a few of them have come out and and made the assertion that he is like a
so a couple of things first of all chris is a absolutely super decent human being his whole
to say that there's some odd things that are going on there now is it an op or not i i don't know
me when he was explaining all this stuff to me was that like this is something that he really experienced
um the thing that just raises my hairs is the fact that all these people from intelligence and and
nasa are like clinging to him well there's a couple of ways to look at it one is that it's an op
and they're they're screwing with them yeah i love benowitz okay the other possibility is that they
would that not be a possibility one of the things about about stephen greer is that you know he
opinions on this but there's no question in my mind that there is a consciousness element to this
phenomenon that's real and there is no question as well that greer did get interest from the national
as far as i can see it's absolutely true is he met with a gentleman named john peterson of the arlington
all of their power they went to some dinner together yeah they had dinner and this is i think in the late
in the early 90s is there any is there any proof that he had that meeting yes there is because the
argument is over what the what it constituted uh guerrero was called it a briefing yeah and they
no understanding of it and it's it is not for me to get involved in anything like that i if even if i
just this is part of the territory when you're trying to navigate these things in the public and
are legitimate or not well one thing that i always have to remind myself of is uh that this whole subject
and on the on the con side that want to keep this where it is because it is it's highly disruptive and so
there's going to be intelligence community interaction with this subject that is a fact there is way too much
works in the uh if there is some sort of uh general opportunity in the intelligence community to cover up
secrets the fact that everyone on social media thinks everyone is working for an intelligence agency is a
there but the problem is when you think that everything is an op so that's a bit of a problem
say this conclude that every single thing coming at you is like someone's motivated yes for some reason
problem that we have is we have good reason not to trust a lot like we have really good reason so
but i do think what we've fallen into is i call it a kind of a post-modern trap which is when someone
makes a claim about anything frequently from a lot of people the first thing you'll hear is oh that
not we're not listening the one thing we're not doing is is hearing their message we're not actually
think they're an op and they work for this organization here and the fact is when you look at the ufo
knowledge sphere over many years go back to the 1950s this is a period i've studied a lot
their information and the fact is that there are people from every part of the spectrum here in this
in from a lot of different places it seems to me yes which is why i appreciate when people like you
that the world is you know i had a i grew up with a very liberal mother and a pretty conservative father
levels but uh the fact is that it is is not for me to um to write someone off just because they see
i feel is that he really believed he was the president who could run things and he ran into a
let this guy run the country for another month because he is he is a danger on too many levels yeah
basically i have to be done and what is required is uh just breaking them into chapters and doing