I think a lot of people have heard of Plato's Republic or the cave analogy or the myth of Earth, but they don't really have a ton of context as to who Plato was, why he did what he did.
I think you have to get away from what you were being proposed here is actually Plato's political program and there's something else going on here.
You're a professor of philosophy who has dared to reconcile some ancient philosophy, you know, Plato, Aristotle, even up until today, you know, more modern Nietzsche, Heidegger, with UFOs.
And so I want to start kind of at a super baseline level because I think a lot of people, you know, have heard of Plato's Republic or the cave analogy or you know, the myth of Earth, but they don't really have a ton of context as to who Plato was, why he did what he did.
So why don't we just start it kind of ground zero, who is Plato and why did he write the Republic? Sure.
That was surprising to me, but, um, okay, so who was Plato? So obviously, you know, probably most people know Plato was the student of Socrates and in most of Plato's dialogues, which is most of what we have of his writings, Socrates is the main character, though not in all of them.
And it's pretty clear that Socrates does not always speak for Plato, which I think is important even in the Republic.
Other than that, you know, Plato was an aristocratic, you know, member of Athenian society, you know, in the period coming out of the Palo-Ponnesian War.
Okay, Plato is not probably his given birth name. Right. It's a nickname like broad or big as in like broad shoulder because he was the most accomplished wrestler of his generation apparently.
And we know about when Plato is setting it because it begins by referring to a certain religious festival that classical scholars can date when that festival likely happened.
So we know it's sent at a time when Plato would have been like a little kid. Okay. So he obviously was not there. Right.
But the characters are obviously Socrates and two other characters are Glaucom and Adamantus who were Plato's half brothers.
And I'm not sure if I'm getting exactly right, but my understanding is none of those people are alive by the time Plato writes this and none of them died natural deaths.
my understanding was on the other side of this post-Peliponition more political struggle from Plato's family. Okay.
So it's interesting what Plato's depicting for us is this moment where everybody was kind of together behaving civilly for the last time.
But I think it's interesting that Plato's Republic, the actual question they initiate the dialogue is the question of death. Okay.
I agree. I also think we are probably over indexed on taking everything allegorically and not literally. So I'm more sympathetic to the Plato literalists. But you know, that's my own. I'm allowed to do that. I'm a delatine.
So ultimately the famous philosopher king. Okay. But it also like Plato says early on that any state that occurs naturally is going to fall apart due to greed and injustice and this. Okay. So so you think of like any natural city is not run by a philosopher. Okay. And we get we get a story of how you would cultivate philosophers sufficient to run a city.
And it's a not so thin reference to Socrates. Okay. And interesting what Plato has Socrates say when when he's asked, you know, would we have to make the philosopher go back? He says, well, in our city, meaning the ideal city that we're thinking of, the philosopher would owe his education to the city.
And thereby he should return. Okay. But think of it. That's only the ideal city. And Plato has said throughout the book that the ideal city is not going to happen here. Right. So it seemed like you say like any actual concrete like human political situation.
The philosopher really should not return. It would be a few title effort. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. And so just what is the cave at a baseline for the average per sure. Okay. So at a certain point in the dialogue, the question of how we would educate a philosopher comes up. Okay. And basically the cave is Plato's way of explaining what the education of the philosopher would be like.
There's no ability to separate yourself from this. Right. So it would be what we would call today a consensus reality. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And now Plato never explains this. But voila, somebody gets loose. Okay. It's interesting. We're never going to explanation of how that initial liberation would happen. Okay. And that person is able to turn and look away. It's a very important thing that Plato emphasizes is that person looks away from the wall.
And eventually he worked his way up to glimpsing the sun. Okay. glimpsing what Plato, else recalls the good. Right. But he can only glimpse it. Right. Right. And so then he returns to the cave. And of course, in returning to the cave, the light has changed again.
Or yeah, because you think it's like throughout the book, it's clear for Plato, enlightenment doesn't just happen. You have to be taught. Like, but it's really you could you can make a case. The book is a philosophy of education. Right.
It's what what what should our ruling elite be like? Like how should they be educated? Right. And and it's in the one thing Plato would say is you cannot just let nature take its course this way. Right. Like people are not disposed to take themselves out of illusion. Right. They're disposed to stay in illusion. Right. So someone has to be pulling. Right. Yeah. So is the problem I think for the book is the is the implication that the guardians or the puppeteers. Yeah.
Okay. So what do we get? We get a good lie about the afterlife. Okay. Now my read on that is what Plato is doing is he saying, look, I just drag you through the same educate of process that I was outlined in the book.
And then do we have any understanding of who is telling them this sort of noble mythology? Yeah. And keep in mind, like, like, this is a problem because Plato earlier said any natural city is going to fall apart.
Because of natural human greed and selfishness and stuff. And so how you could ever get this off the ground doesn't seem to be within a legitimate human possibility for Plato.
So the way I like to put it is I don't think Plato is a plate nest. Okay. What I mean is the kind of philosophy 101 that we all teach our students, because you have to just, if they tell some goodness to get things going, be careful there.
Okay. Um, is, is very much a caricature of Plato. Do you see what I mean? Okay. And so, um, but I also think there's something. So I do think there's a lot of put on going on in the book.
that Plato does in the phato. He has Socrates, he has Socrates saying the phato, which interestingly,
Plato goes out of his way to say he wasn't there for the conversation of phato. So he oddly
remind you of them. Okay. So like, I think what Plato's getting at is there are things that we
Pagrid as a classicist, right? Okay. But like, but there, Plato, I mean, there were such things as
prose, treatise, as a literary genre at the time. Okay. But yeah, Plato writes in dialogue.
Plato writes in dialogue. So why write in dialogue? Like why are you doing that? And it seems like,
interesting things with this with later Flos you too, but, but Plato talks like he uses the sun
fly too close, you're going to crash. Right. So think of like, like by Plato suggesting that we
think that's important in that for for Plato, you're never going to be able to point to the good.
in front of the horizon that we can judge. Right. So it's sort of Plato, I think, is predicting
people say, you know, all philosophy is a, you know, footnote of Plato or whatever, like he's
it with Plato for me is just that that metaphor of we could be really, really wrong as a consensus
don't know, taking it like one step farther with the Plato thing, do you ever think like this is like,
I believe that also kind of dovetails with a test that Plato puts the Guardians through like at
and Plato come apart. Okay, at least this where Heidegger becomes a critic of Plato's. Okay,
Heidegger it's like we're more passive in the process. Okay, then say for Plato where we
liked these Plato's metaphor. And and and I'm not really like I don't trust any of our metaphors
reality. Like it's like, it's like the Plato thing where it's like everything I'm going to tell you
And I think, I mean, that has been known since Plato. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.
your tick, but I think we are literally in Plato's cave. And not only all the stuff we talked about
you know I we should probably talk about the myth of air, which you know the the end of the Plato
Plato's Republic, which he talked about. That is such a fascinating myth. Also kind of I think
for Plato or or maybe like the illusion mysteries something maybe like I'm I'm perfectly open to
Plato has that dark sense but it's some you say of a similar thing in Plato. Right. Yeah. And I
looks like that that still wouldn't mean it wasn't the most and I don't think Plato is necessarily
it's like Plato's saying we don't really ever get to see the ideal in in the concrete world right
it's a fair perennial criticism Plato that like there are consequences to say in this world is
I my sense is that in Plato's case it's more meaningful yeah I could think no better metaphor
know I mean that I would I would hope that that interpretation of Plato is correct and then I don't
anti-enlightenment irrationalism too yes yes yeah definitely could you what do you think if Plato