possession of it and they're in possession of it too, then there is an agreement between countries
that says we're not going to talk about this. It's the fight club. JFK was assassinated over
E. Howard Hunt wrote at least three occult novels. Really? Yeah. And he lived on a place
called Witch's Island. What? So I'm thinking, well, wait a minute here, right? Let me read
Lyman Payne, and also married to Arthur Young. So she had all of these pedigrees all mixed in together.
spiritual force. And there's a medium, a man from India, who then becomes kind of famous in sort of
religious liberalism sort of circles, trying to... One world religion kind of thing, you know,
trying to make peace with everybody and all of this kind of stuff that was going on at the time.
And so he's conducting the seance and he's solving mathematical equations that
Andrija Pujaric puts to him to see if he's really talking to a spiritual force.
And this guy is answering correctly, solving mathematical equations.
Whoa.
So then, and this guy evidently materializes out of the clear blue sky, little threads,
one for each of the members of this group. They're supposed to wrap around their wrist,
makes them Brahmins, like actual Brahmins in the Indian sense. But they're Brahmins assigned to this
exalted rank, this elite status by these nine forces that are spinning somehow above them,
which later become identified as residents of a UFO in low Earth orbit. The same one that is later
then being contacted by Uri Geller, who was then discovered by Buharic, brought to the United States
So we know that there was a big discussion about this going on. So how is it that this happens?
How is it right that this bunch of people having a seance in Maine in 1952
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm going through the, the Warren Commission reports, the, all this, I mean, the entire
Fair Play for Cuba leaflets. Yeah.
Right. So it was all in this one office, David Ferry, Jack Martin, all these psychos were in this
see in all the rest of it? I think that there's a lot of weirdness around that meeting. Uh, Kenneth
Arnold was, did not have a reservation in any hotel. He just kind of showed up because Crisman
in his persona as a priest and bishop the rest of his life. So the photographs I have of him in the 1970s,
years after the Kennedy assassination stuff that was going on in New Orleans. And he's in the, in the,
So we, yeah.
And a lot of people just said, no, screw this. We're not going to do it.
veils. We have crosses and stuff and, you know, and we look genuine, right? I mean, for two 17 year
we'll get you in something like that. So we say, okay, cool. We're two 17 year olds.
right? Because we needed, we were two 17 year olds, you know, my friend turned 18 that month. So we needed
It doesn't make any sense. I was 17. How the hell did we wind up in that position?
That's why he called people back to have them vetted. Hoover himself would approve or disapprove his
selection of priests and bishops. So this was obviously for what reason, right? And it'd be for
as against Biafra. This was a ploy in the Civil War. The Civil War was raging when we did this.
And we put him back on the plane the next day. He goes back to Nigeria. God knows what happened to
watched the sorcerer and now they're doing the same thing and they cannot control it. It goes out of
control completely. So the sorcerer has to come in and fix it. Right. So this is, this is the problem
the highest levels of government and their interest in the topics of non-human intelligence.
Tom contacted me, I think much the way you, you know, um, just out of the clear blue sky.
said, can you throw it out? So I said, okay, I'll talk. I'll keep on going. You know, what can I riff
on what I just said? And I spin that out to that statement and suddenly he gets a standing ovation.
Right. I'm thinking, holy crap, what kind of a crew in my ear with? I'm surrounded by all these people
who thought this was, this was the point I'm talking about the Kennedy assassination, you know, Hoover and,
you know, E. Howard Hunt and all these guys and Fred Crisman and Guy Bannister. And the part they
liked was the classified part. Right. So anyway, that was, that got carried on a lot of YouTube
channels. Suddenly that was all over the place. Right. That one particular presentation got a lot of
views, hundreds of thousands of views when it first came out. So I think that might've been the trigger
because nobody ever associated me with the UFO phenomenon before. I had written about it in,
in, uh, secret machines. Yeah. Excuse me. Sinister forces. Yep.
Too many books getting confused, but in, uh, sinister forces, there's just one chapter on,
was one chapter on the assassination with all these weird guys. Yeah. And then in a later volume
you know, we began this long conversation on email, uh, on, on this subject also.
What do you think they meant when they said, Hey, come speak about the secret space program? Because
I was initially invited long ago to replace somebody, I think. And then I was invited to replace
Jim Mars, who was sick that year and who passed away that year. He was a good friend.
And The Cloud That Lifted is about the assassination of a political leader,
getting shot in the ear, in the ear that he was shot in.
Right.
Right.
like pre-exists and you're sort of like, you know, figuring that out, figuring out what's
happening. You're getting some download or is it some sort of predictive programming where you are
Yeah.
supplies, you had weapons because this was the beginning of the war. And these, these stone age
tribes are looking at this thing and they're saying, God damn, we don't know that this, that you could
to stare at the night sky and chart those stars?
It's amazing. And I mean, all the Graham Hancock, Robert Shock stuff, like the most interesting part
right? For the humans. He was giving fire to the humans. Humans didn't have fire. They were
freezing their asses off. Prometheus came down and said, here's fire, get warm, you know? And the
So I got breakfast with Tom DeLonge once, who I love, by the way. I think he's the best.
Yeah. And he actually referenced Gnostic thought at the time. He was talking about the archons,
way. So, so you think, wow, so there's a, there's a, there's a way out, but it's impossible to talk about,
but you do talk about it because you write, you wrote a book about it, you know, Stairway to Heaven.
writing about this? All these books on Nazi occultism and nobody's looking at the real documents,
the, the, the, the original papers. Didn't they go to Mount Kailash looking for some underground
humans or whatever. Do you think there was any sort of Nordic Nazi relationship?
an investigation as to Nazi gold and what happened to the Nazi gold that was missing, they found just
within a few months because they didn't have a lot of financing to continue this for a long time.
Russia, or the United States, and have it based here in Jakarta.
Wow! So, is the implication that Roswell was Horton Brothers' technology that might have gotten into
definitely not human. And so those two things just don't line up or comport at all. Obviously,
there's disinformation somewhere. Somewhere. Yeah. And so your, but your bet would be the disinfo
would be on the kind of NHI alien front and that this might be prosaic human technology.
I think, yeah, I think it's a possibility that what crashed in Roswell was, was human
technology prosaic. I'm not sure. Yeah, sure. Exotic human. Exotic human.
But remember when you're talking about Roswell and you're talking about Wright-Patterson,
you're talking about all the Nazi scientists, uh, Walter Dornberger from Peenemunde, his first
posting was to Wright-Patterson. He was in Wright-Patterson when the Roswell debris was brought,
was brought in by trains. So wild. So he was there. And so, okay.
Who else would you have wanted to look at that? And he was head of, I think, a, a four V2
program in, in Nazi Germany. Yeah. He ran Peenemunde. He ran Peenemunde. He was, uh,
the boss of, uh, what's his name? Wernher von Braun. Wernher von Braun. Yeah.
That's okay. Wow. So he was at Oberammergau and yeah, it's interesting, you know? And, and I think
right? Yeah. And we put them in charge. The whole thing was just to me mind boggling that that would
happen that way, you know, but it just did. Right. So mind boggling. And it doesn't make a lot of sense,
our defenders or our allies. They were just there being paid and saved from going to the Soviet Union.
So the amount of trust we placed in these people, they didn't deserve what we did, right? They didn't
anti-communist. Let's not muddy the waters. And the guy says, I can do both, right? I can be
anti-communist and anti-Nazi. I can do both things. We can do both things as a country.
when they said that the accusations against him could not have happened because of a number of
things. What were the accusations?
in paranormal anything. He didn't believe in UFOs, right? This guy was a realist, a hundred percent
realist in what he did. He believed in the philosophies behind a lot of these things.
So this was something where you change the minds, the hearts and minds of people as
The UFO phenomenon could be one. Do you think it's used in that capacity? Oh, it has been. We know that.
Richard Doty did it. Uh-huh. Well, yeah. So he was obviously kind of psyoping and messing with
rotor blades. I hear nothing. So I opened the car door and I stand up and look at it. I'm looking at a
triangle with the lights and it's just sitting there and it's totally quiet. Not a sound,
Well, we, we had, as an example, I made some noise about this on Substack. I think it was a year or
two ago and the wrestling community got really freaked out. You know, the worldwide wrestling
from the underworld. This Cthulhu that they're talking about in the book is the man from the underworld.
And then, so that sent us off on other wild goose chases. Like Kutu is the underworld. And we found
out there is a place. It's, I mean, the Sumeriologists would know. It was called Kuta or Kutu in Sumerian or
Babylonian. And it was a place that was supposed to be the entrance to the underworld. It exists today,
today in Iraq. It's south of Baghdad, south east of Baghdad. And it's the place where Abraham is said to
be buried. Tell Ibrahim is there. And if you look at pictures of it now, it's just a big empty wasteland.
Nothing is built there. But that's supposed to be the entrance to the underworld.
So fascinating.
So things started to make sense later.
Yeah.
Right? And they found an Arabic rendering in the Quran of a being called Al-Khadool, which is supposed to be
a kind of quality of anti-something. It's like an adversary name. Right? So there's like things
started to make sense that didn't make sense back in 1975. But with the passage of time and, you know,
enthusiasms as much. And he wants to get his money back as quickly as possible to finance this thing.
So they come up with a scheme, which I didn't know existed. It's called barter space. And in
Right. I think they were interested since the beginning,
but what's the connection? How is that?
escapes me, but it's in my books, from this institute in Montreal to go and investigate this guy, just talk to him.
Ewan Cameron, maybe? Or no?
Asclepius. Asclepius. See, I'm talking too long and I'm starting to stumble over my own words.
Anyway, the God of medicine. Yes. The, the, the twin serpents around a central staff,
send, they're going to dox me. Okay. Um, I can say this, I can say that at the time the Bible was
I would recommend it for most people just being cool and getting through life as peacefully as you
When you can't get a straight answer on something, it opens up the field to anybody who has an
imaginary answer. Right. Right. When you don't have a real answer, something you can agree on,
was organic material on it, it was non-human biologicals. Ah, whoa. So like any sort of
real. I mean, whoever went to the work involved to make them look real as, as this, they've been
criticized by different people. And then later on, not, not, not so much. I said, I've looked at them.
throw everybody off. Totally. It's hard. That's the hoax. Right.
So, so do you, do you feel like you came out of your interactions with some of these people?
I had a meeting here in Austin. Okay. Um, a couple of years ago. Well,
We asked about it. They all got silent. They suddenly all stopped talking.
because they smoke dope when they were 17, maybe, and can't get the clearance, right?
The, the, the blind men touching the elephant, I think is really good analogy, touching different
parts of an elephant and their left hand's not talking to the right. It's not coordinated.
ranking member of CIA is abducted by an alien. Yeah.
Or has that experience.
Yeah.
Lincoln is responsible for it.
there are, you know, thinkers, historical religious thinkers, um, like, you know, Lincoln likes to bring up
Iamblichus, you know, there's some others with, you know, St. Thomas Aquinas with taxonomies,
Calling them angels might've been a bit of a misnomer. The seven ranks of angels came later,
seraphim, cherubim, et cetera, et cetera, angels, archangels, and all the rest. That's like a later
of the scientific one. I was appalled a couple of years ago to hear how the Air Force Academy
So there's a whole story there, I suppose. But from my point of view, I don't think these groups are as,
versions of Prometheus, you're the, even the story of Faust or whatever, usually blows up on the person
going for the forbidden knowledge. And so I struggle with it because obviously per this show, I'm
bad. And I do, I kind of believe in the Faust version of all of this stuff. So where does that
leave us? Well, I, I, I watched some of the Giorgiani episode because I was, you know, I know about
the traditionalists don't have an answer to that fundamental question.
Yeah.
And not everybody would consider those ages golden ages. There are a lot of people who
suffered under those regimes because these were regimes for elitists. These were elite regimes.
They did well, right. When everybody else suffered. And so I don't want to go back to any of those golden
ages. I think that the knowledge that they had, that we're always mooning about and saying how great
it was, we already have it. It's all around us. We've got it in our hands. We don't know how to use it.
We don't know how to look at it. You know, we're, we're too divided in so many different ways, you
know, culturally, academically, linguistically, even politically, certainly all of these things
are there to make everything very messy, but the knowledge is there. It's never gone away. It's,
it's always been there. It's always been accessible. I don't want to go to a golden age. I want to go
towards a golden age if possible. Right. I think that is possible, but I think it's going to take some
work and it's going to take individuals coming to terms with the fact that all of these ideologies are not
very useful. There is a new age possible, you know, because we see it in ourselves as individuals.
Soren Kierkegaard quote that I think it's like, life is not a question to be answered, but a reality to
be experienced. Right. And I feel like maybe the hubris of UFO quote unquote research or esoteric research.
are operating over time, right? And a lot of it had to do with the Field Engineering Services,
because it came out that we were training troops in Saudi Arabia. What the hell was Bendix Field
I don't know if he was Area 51 while I was at Bendix or not. I left Bendix in 79, I think. So I don't
know if he was at Bendix or if he had that ID in the eighties. If he did that after. It must have been
we have 15 crash craft in our possession. Like he's literally gave like a number.