And there are nine people involved in the seance. Now, these are not just some casual nine people
you pick up, like, you know, your neighbors or something, right? This was a DuPont and an Astor
And she was the best friend of, I think her name was Mary Douglas, if I'm not mistaken,
And so he's conducting the seance and he's solving mathematical equations that
Andrija Pujaric puts to him to see if he's really talking to a spiritual force.
then being contacted by Uri Geller, who was then discovered by Buharic, brought to the United States
to be tested. It just, it gets incestuous. But Ruth and Arthur, they have a daughter,
who's also Ruth. Her name is Ruth Payne. She lives in Texas, by the way. And she's studying Russian.
She's fascinated by the Russian language. She's a Quaker who wants to study Russian. Don't think
she ever managed it in her life, but at that moment she wanted to study Russian. And in her
home, she opens her door to some refugees, you know, people who are recent immigrants from Russia.
Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina and their kids.
So they're living with Ruth Payne in this house in Texas. She gets him the job at the
Texas School Book Depository. So wild. So you have this kind of, uh,
blue blooded elite adjacent person who's, uh, uh, whose mother engaged in the seance with
you say, what happened? You know, it's like Kevin Costner reading the thing saying, ask the next
question. Yeah.
you know, there were these three quote unquote hobos that were arrested. Right.
And they think Fred Krisman was one of those hobos. I don't know if you corroborated that at all,
is here with all these guys. Right. And Guy Bannister died in 64. So he died before
Garrison could interview him. But Bannister and Jack Martin got into a fist fight.
under 18 at the time. We couldn't sign legal documents and we couldn't sign a corporation
But we also know we're in deep shit. If somebody stops us, you know, it's all over. So we know how
to get out of the church. There's an underground kind of a passageway. It's not really that secret,
right? Because we needed, we were two 17 year olds, you know, my friend turned 18 that month. So we needed
So, uh, I, I turned 18 at a different time than my friend did. So he, he got his clearance before I did.
when you're finished with Jack Martin, can you send him back to us? Right? So it's there. It's in
print. It's in the files. Well, also a wild synchronicity that you end up
in the, in two different Orthodox churches. One was the Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia.
M-hmm.
Well, in the Orthodox church, it's almost the same, kind of similar. But there's a prayer and a gesture
that you do to make this change official, to call down the forces to make this happen. They don't know it
happening in 1968, right? I'm still 18. By that time, I'm 18 years old. So now, I mean, I'm in the
I'll never forget him because I had to go to the airport to pick him up. His name was the Holy
Prophet Alouya. That was his name. H.P. Alouya. Holy Prophet H.P. I picked him up at the airport in,
It was the contact with spirits. It was a contact with the other side that became an overriding thing.
And that drained me completely. That was completely something that really bothered me a great deal
go off the deep end for, if you're already weak, if you're already kind of, you don't have critical
thinking ability. Um, you don't have a lot of, you know, psychological strength, let's say. Yeah. From
but there's always that point at which, you know, we don't know. There's always that point where you,
where they're saying something, they mean something else than what is really being translated. Right.
was one chapter on the assassination with all these weird guys. Yeah. And then in a later volume
called communion, there's a chapter on the UFO phenomenon per se and conversations I had with
Whitley Strieber who had contacted me years earlier, uh, for something kind of unrelated. But,
you know, we began this long conversation on email, uh, on, on this subject also.
What do you think they meant when they said, Hey, come speak about the secret space program? Because
that, uh, term carries a lot of baggage and is often associated with the network Gaia and Corey
Good and you know, this idea of 20 and back or whatever, and this sort of, you know, all that sort of
stuff, which seems like honestly BS to me. And yet you write about celestial ascent and, you know,
the idea that, um, you know, you can, you can ascend through seven levels and that there's sort of this
map and that, you know, maps to, you know, um, the big dipper and, and, and, uh, and, and the North Star.
And so, um, does that somehow have to do with some sort of secret space program? That concept,
the 20 and back and all this other stuff, that's, that's supposed to be literal.
Mm-hmm.
That's supposed to be, you get into a spaceship and you go.
choreography going on behind the scenes that most humans aren't aware of? Maybe a few are?
Well, the whole, the whole point of sinister forces was that there are sinister forces.
Right.
It was like four months before it happened or whatever. You have the adventures of
And you think of it as a Muslim, it is a Muslim, primarily country, but it's replete with Hindu
and Buddhist statuary, archaeological sites going back hundreds and hundreds of years,
quantum context and, um, and then gravity and time are obviously extremely interlinked and related.
Like time slows, the closer you get to like a black hole, for example. So time itself is just so weird.
Kind of a, of a prologue to, to this. So,
uh, you know, the inventor of the Oregon box and Oregon therapy and all of that. But he was a very
well known. He was anti-communist and anti-fascist both at a time when that position was untenable
point until we come to terms with it. So the three books on that is to try to show people that there
was a universal kind of Nazism. Right. And they were fascinated with occultism. Some of them were
before Hitler showed up. So the swastika was their symbol and it was a symbol of the Aryans. And they got
that again from the theosophical writings and pseudo-theosophical writings, people copying Blavatsky.
This is what happened at this time. This is what happened at that time.
And did he say it was like Hyperborea? Like this?
years later in 1947.
Well, is there a connection? I think so. I think we made a pretty good case for it in secret machines,
modern Czechoslovakia and Poland. And they were building what seemed to be saucers. Like, Rudolf Schreiber,
who was a technician there, said that one climbed to 40,000 feet in a few seconds. You know, Richard Mita,
I think, yeah, I think it's a possibility that what crashed in Roswell was, was human
technology prosaic. I'm not sure. Yeah, sure. Exotic human. Exotic human.
That's okay. Wow. So he was at Oberammergau and yeah, it's interesting, you know? And, and I think
you, you do have also the Avro car project, which was an attempt to, to build a flying saucer.
And it originally was in Canada, but then it moved over to Wright-Patterson as project Y.
Yeah. And there was always this feeling that project Y was a front for something deeper,
but it was, there were, there are videos of them trying to like fly this flying saucer just had a,
you know, radial gas turbine engine. So kind of like when I was a kid, yeah, when I was a kid in
the, in the 19 late 1950s, you could buy a plastic model of the Avro. That's wild. That's so wild.
I had it when I was a kid. It's crazy to see. I mean, there, it looks like a flying saucer.
There's like, you know, um, there, they really does. There's a, a wind turbine photos of it being
tested. And it looks like you're like, I I'm in star Wars right now. Like this, it's remarkable.
And then we, we do, I think have documented evidence that Richard Mita, who was from
Skoda works and commerce stop made his way to at least the Avro car project that was going on in
Hmm. That's kind of, um,
So it was a machine to give emotional support and moral support towards, you know, eradicating your
enemies on a moral level. It wasn't a practical thing, but it was a moral thing that said people,
Why would you say that?
Is that part of a disinformation project that's been underway since 1947?
Yes. They're all there. They're all hanging out. They're having a wild old time. And they love
Aquino. They all want their picture taken with this guy. What?
things. What were the accusations?
Uh, child abuse. Jesus.
Sure. No, but the pressure from Dodie feeding him false information, somebody is already
basically. Um, and so I'm unloading packages from the car and I look up and I notice there's an old
model black Cadillac, uh, idling right in front of the house. And the driver appears to be holding
cult somewhere, you know, and they came out very sweetly and looked at me as I'm desperate to get out
of my driveway saying, can you tell us where the DeVilbiss family lives? DeVilbiss. And I said,
me on the shoulder and that's not done in Singapore. You know what I mean? It's like,
of course there's tourists there, but people don't, they're not touchy feely in that part of the world.
Shout out to Lincoln. American alchemy researcher, friend, and kind of informal understudy of Peter
Lavenda. That sounds sad. That sounds dangerous.
like 18 years old, I suppose. Right. Again, no internet, boys and girls. So I knew nothing about
long, but it was there. And you could just dial them up and ask them. So I dialed up, you know,
you could ask for anybody, any famous actor, actress, it would give you some form of contact information.
Babylonian. And it was a place that was supposed to be the entrance to the underworld. It exists today,
started to make sense that didn't make sense back in 1975. But with the passage of time and, you know,
sober looking back at it, things kind of start connecting more than they used to. But from an
unbiased perspective, I can't be unbiased. I was involved with it since like the beginning. But
from my unbiased perspective, it's a book with the same name. And it's quite possible that somebody knew
about it. Lovecraft heard the name, you know, and crafted his idea of what the Necronomicon should be
based on that, that he just simply heard the name and that the name was around. Because there isn't a lot in
there that says that screams Lovecraft. But there are pieces that do, you know?
Well, and real quick before we get into the government's interest in this topic, which, you know,
is mind blowing that the government strategic air command might be interested in a book about the
dead. Yeah.
And references ancient, you know, Sumerian myth and stuff. I mean, that's fascinating. But, um,
time. And you came upon maybe the occult book, which is the Necronomicon. Right. Which is like this,
like the most forbidden book that you're not supposed to possess, which ends up kind of being true for
The story has been around. I don't know who's promulgated it, but it's been around. So yeah, that,
that's kind of weird, but imagine me, but you know, like 40 years ago, uh, that's pretty much
But when he was poor, when he was destitute in Vienna, trying to get into art school and selling
postcards on the streets of Vienna, he became enthralled with a bunch of occult magazines that
Christian order that was going to wipe out all the mongrel races, you know, from Europe and all
the other religions. It would be the secret society at first, but then it would rule Germany. So Hitler,
They see, they hallucinate all kinds of stuff. Yeah.
to walk with God, to, to, to, to see God's throne, to see the heavens and then come back down? Do you
think that's possible? Again, the problem is our use of language and words. And what do we mean by all
put into stone, which is 300 years after Christ died, um, a lot of interpretations were looked at,
together a story and as I always tell people, we still don't know what was on the 18 and a half
Is there, you know, there's the parable of the parties where you have four rabbis try to ascend to
heaven and only one comes down, you know, intact. Right.
hydrocarbons on some weird meteor from, you know, Mars or something, right? But not like bodies,
must be longer than that now. Uh, with Tom DeLonge. Yeah. Chris Mellon, Hal Puthoff,
Or has that experience.
And I think it was fairly traumatic. I think his.
Lincoln is responsible for it.
Yeah. He recommended it to me too. It's by Chase Brandon, who's this, that's a pseudonym. He's the
people together? Of course, you're not going to want to disclose that any of that is happening if it
is happening. And it, all of a sudden you, you, you move from this conversation of like,
the UFO field acknowledged, at least in Congress, that we have to do something. We have to at least study it.
And it's been blocked by groups who felt that, that God does not want us to do this. This is in
in Colorado was training, you know, their people in religious studies, right? And a very sort of narrow
as, you know, hardwired as we like to think. I think they're just general attitudes and the
very useful. There is a new age possible, you know, because we see it in ourselves as individuals.
We know we can make our individual understandings better, our individual lives better. It's just
that guy next door who's a pain in the ass. Right. Totally. Well, you know that there's a
Soren Kierkegaard quote that I think it's like, life is not a question to be answered, but a reality to
be experienced. Right. And I feel like maybe the hubris of UFO quote unquote research or esoteric research.
Yeah. Is that it is a question to be answered. Right. You're looking for some Archimedean point
of revelation. It suddenly will know. You see the Ark of the Covenant and boom,
you have all knowledge and it's inside your brain and you're, you're upgraded or whatever,
and you have this, the special power. And that just, uh, I don't know, that seems like a sort of
fallacy. Like it's, you think it is. It is a fallacy. Okay. I think we are in the process. We're
in a constant process of discovery. Right. There is no one discovery to be made that's
going to settle everything. So then what is the role of curiosity? Like if, if both you and I are
taking these sort of quests where we're trying to find like all this, like interesting offbeat
and the consciousness guys, let's call them for a better word, but that's not even it. Right. You
take the nuts and bolts guys and you push them a little bit and they don't know what they're
six, seven years in the 1970s until I think 79 or 1980. So for a long time, I worked for their
International Division. And the International Division was located in Manhattan on Broadway,
It's just, it's interesting. The thing is that, you know, I don't know how well.
age of artificial intelligence, it's becoming harder and harder, but you can look at documents,
look at the stuff that's released. That's open source. That's already there. Um, Harry Reed was