he started telling me his whole life story. He's going into CIA. He's going into this. He's going into that.
The language is because we both spoke a little Mandarin. He spoke better than I did. And so there
And so do you think that E. Howard Hunt knew about, you know, NHI and aliens and that JFK's
And obviously Nixon was notoriously paranoid. And so maybe it's because you have this guy,
Larry O'Brien, who knows that you commissioned originally this S force team of assassins,
I realize I go around in circles, but you know, as Matthew McConaughey says, time is a spiral.
Um, so what we have is what got me involved in this, really involved in the UFO thing.
Yeah.
Because I really wasn't, you know, from the beginning, I mean, I was kind of like interested,
like anybody would be interested, but not, you know, to the extent that I would study it.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm going through the, the Warren Commission reports, the, all this, I mean, the entire
thing, not the, not the, uh, summary, but all of the volumes.
And I'm going through the, uh, Ruth Payne, uh, the lady in Texas, the Quaker.
Yeah.
Studying Russian. And she's, she's talking to the commission, you know, and she's going, how she
met Lee Oswald and Marina and everything else. And then she starts talking about how, you know,
just before the assassination, she goes up to visit, you know, Arthur Young and et cetera. At that point,
um, Alan Dulles is part of that committee hearing. He stops her. He totally derails that story. And he,
he makes a joke about something else completely unrelated and buries it. She was about to say
Orleans. So he is arrested, um, by Jim Garrison on his orders, uh, for having been involved in the
Kennedy assassination. And evidently, Clay Shaw calls Fred Crisman. So why, right? So you're asking
Arnold was, did not have a reservation in any hotel. He just kind of showed up because Crisman
said, why don't you come down? We're going to talk to these guys. And Arnold shows up and there's no
sheet a mile along and everything else, but he's running a church out of Kentucky. So Carl Stanley
tells the FBI, look at these two guys in New Orleans, they're involved in the assassination.
He commits suicide or is suicided under mysterious circumstances during the investigation into the
Kennedy assassination. Jack Martin is the only one that survives. Okay. Years later, I'm interviewing a
Yeah.
And in 1968, I was still in high school.
So those are the three options. But there was a fourth.
And the fourth was, the US government would not force you to join the military if you were a priest
document. I think in New York, you had to be 21. So we had to find people to sign for us,
because they're national churches. So you have Greek Orthodox churches, Russian Orthodox, Serbian,
He says, this is the thing though. He says, the Russians have been moving agents into the United
States through the Orthodox churches. Keep an eye out. Mm.
history. Specifically spooky science, atomic era stuff. And so we have our atomic age tee here.
Uh, pretty cool vibe. Uh, you got a robot serving this guy, a little martini, and then a UFO off to
And we put him back on the plane the next day. He goes back to Nigeria. God knows what happened to
him after that. We don't know. Never heard from him again.
analogy relates to this? Yeah. Good question, because I'm glad you picked up on that. Um,
figure out what your version of it is and, and, and kind of go from there slowly, step by step.
I almost think control is almost a misnomer too. Like having some sort of deliberate intention
about, you know, I'll talk about, we've just talked about, about the UFO situation, the connection to
the Kennedy assassination. We'll do that. Right. So I did that. Um, and it was at that symposium
where the UFO project was concerned. And I said, you know, this is, this is the problem. You know,
there's a lot of weird stuff here. You're not being told the weird stuff. I only happened to know it
Jim Mars, who was sick that year and who passed away that year. He was a good friend.
no, that's not how this works. Right. That is not how it works. What do you mean? Of course it,
no, it's not how it works. Right. Did you listen to me the last half hour? No, it doesn't work.
So there's been that pushback. They want to believe in this. It gives them a format. It gives
them, it gives them freedom to make shit up. Yeah.
That's what it is. And when you throw a cult in there, you can make shit up.
Well, it almost feels like based on your discussing the interconnection between the JFK assassination
and the UFO phenomenon, that there are sort of reality managers, like maybe even like above
humanity that can like choreograph or pull the strings on things.
Well, there's, and, and, and that does have to do with the occult. Like I think of,
you know, the borderland society, this sort of occult research group, like in the forties,
they were aware of certain UFO crashes before the government was. And there's documentation of that.
You have stuff with James Jesus Angleton and Hugh Angleton being involved in the Knights of Malta and
certain secret societies. And so, and then obviously a lot of the early CIA was sort of skull and bones.
And The Cloud That Lifted is about the assassination of a political leader,
happening. You're getting some download or is it some sort of predictive programming where you are
causing the future by writing about these things?
Muslim and in the case, my case of, of living there, Javanese, right? People from the island of
Java, they have their own traditions, their own ways of doing things. They visit graves.
is the grave of a famous prince who had died on that spot. And his grave is there. But a lot of
other graves as well. It's a cemetery, an Islamic cemetery. And you go there because you need
cargo cult was a couple of pages long. And the, the idea was, take the cargo cult, uh, concept and
it's always this creature that comes down usually from space. What are examples and kind of mythology?
Well, the famous one, I guess, is Oannes in the Sumerian myths, right? So here is a god who lands
we try to make it a couple of times. I hope I don't bore anybody with it is the fact that everybody has
a piece of the story. Everybody's got a piece of what happened, you know, and we ignore the other
have some sort of ontological model of reality that comes from like a lot of data around this stuff.
Yeah. That's our impression. We, we, we got into a point in 2015, I guess it was that, um,
freezing their asses off. Prometheus came down and said, here's fire, get warm, you know? And the
gods didn't like that. So they punished, punished Prometheus. You know, you're going to get chained
but you do talk about it because you write, you wrote a book about it, you know, Stairway to Heaven.
All my books are about it. Yeah. Okay. Fascinating. They're all chapters of one book.
the, the, the, the original papers. Didn't they go to Mount Kailash looking for some underground
civilization there? Among other things. Yeah. But they, they went all the way into Tibet.
So I had access to that information and I'm going, oh my God, this was all going on. This was not made
up, right? Pauls and Bergier who wrote Morning of the Magicians, they were kind of winging it a little
right? And the Nordics become the solution to this problem. We're really Aryans. We're really
Nordics. We don't belong in this situation that we're in. You know, we're in this, we lost the
So with 3000 scientists in Russia, with Nazi presence all around the world after the war,
within a few months because they didn't have a lot of financing to continue this for a long time.
God has to be, I think he had a, I think,
That's a high bar.
Whoa. So there was contact being made.
Of course that was shut down once it was found out, but it was going on for a while. Nobody
knows what was being discussed.
Was it contact between the former Nazi factions of both? Wow. That's pretty fascinating. Yeah. I
think there's some story of Wernher von Braun's, you know, um, giving off trade secrets at the border
in Mexico or whatever. So there is maybe this like rogue Nazi network post-World War II that was like
still vital for a little bit. If there was a rogue Nazi network post-World War II in the United States,
how much more likely it was that it was in other countries where they didn't care.
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Even more likely. So more likely. So there is a likelihood,
statistical likeliness. Let's, let's not a, you know, statistics can be bent either way,
but statistically there was so many Nazi assets around the world, money that we couldn't trace.
Yeah. Assets we couldn't trace. Technology. I mean,
that famous submarine that they stopped, it had the Messerschmitt, you know, in pieces in it and all the
uranium, you know, and the engineers that was going to Japan that supposedly Oppenheimer visited
I wouldn't, I would not a very realistic point of view. I think religion is of one kind or another,
vis-a-vis any other civilian that I've ever met maybe. And so can I ask you a few questions about
just what you think about the UFO legacy program?
realist in what he did. He believed in the philosophies behind a lot of these things.
So this was something where you change the minds, the hearts and minds of people as
possibly extraterrestrials visiting earth? You know, it's, are there not human intelligences? Yes.
Yeah. Bluntly. Okay. Yeah. What levitated your table decades ago? Yeah. And maybe go to the
of course there's tourists there, but people don't, they're not touchy feely in that part of the world.
What was that? Have you mulled over the meaning of it? And has anything else come up since?
No, I've gotten, I've gotten stuff since then, but it hasn't been that specific, that direct. I mean,
So that happened. So, you know, then I think, okay, I'll make note of this. And I, I emailed, uh,
Whitley Streeper. I said, if anybody knows how to make sense of something like this, it'll be Whitley.
Lavenda. That sounds sad. That sounds dangerous.
The sorcerer's apprentice. There you go. So, yeah, uh, that was an interesting thing because I,
but you are the inspiration for Johnny Depp's character in the ninth, in Roman Polanski's
famous movie, the ninth gate, which is also, I think Jacques Vallée's favorite movie.
the B roll stuff. And they look for the, you know, uh, uh, location shots and stuff like that.
And some of the movie takes place in New York. So there are people in New York working for Polanski
it's the Johnny Depp character, dark clothing, the whole thing. And the book business guy,
I was always in and out of bookstores, right in that outfit. And I was, uh, involved with Weiser's
bookstore, which in New York city was the famous occult bookstore with a pedigree going back a long
time. And you came upon maybe the occult book, which is the Necronomicon. Right. Which is like this,
like the most forbidden book that you're not supposed to possess, which ends up kind of being true for
Johnny Depp and his character as well, where you're really not supposed to possess all three books.
You see, but they had the story already. So I fit unbeknownst to me, because I hadn't read the novel
at that time. Right. But I fit the whole, the whole thing. It was as though it was scripted.
So the people around Depp are saying, this actually happened. This story actually happened to this guy,
you know, and we have all this information about him and we talked to people who knew him and stuff.
And so that kind of got into the film from what I understand. I had forgotten all about this to tell
you the truth until a few months ago, I was talking to a guy who makes a videographer. Actually, I think
he's based in, in Florida as well. And he came down to meet me just a couple of months ago. And he says,
put her name on it, on witchcraft and made it look kind of accessible because she was like the sweet lady
type, with an acerbic wit, by the way. So she was being, she was openly involved with operation often,
It was a side show, basically. The major show was the drugs and the hypnosis that was full bore going
on. Massive psychological conditioning undergone in Montreal, Canada, for instance, at an institute
And yet you find it everywhere in ancient art, right? I found a diagram from ancient China,
Anyway, the God of medicine. Yes. The, the, the twin serpents around a central staff,
the Russian Orthodox church, the staff for the bishop is exactly that. Two serpents around a
mystics will interpret this as being valuable specifically to, to behold the throne of God
and to come back down and to tell everybody they've seen it. That's it. End of story. Not to be,
with UFO research. Like it's somehow you often find it's like, this feels like Dante's Inferno.
Yeah. It's like, it was just weird vibes everywhere. Yeah.
So, so do you, do you feel like you came out of your interactions with some of these people?
Cause like TTSA, which you were involved with, had a lot of really high up impressive government
best, you know, but they're all very, you know, and, uh, we would get close to something and we get
some good information. I would write scribbling like mad. I have all those notes, right? Just scribbling on the
Paul Jayne- Nothing, nothing particularly unnotable. We would try to act, ask blatant questions like,
you know, how many, how many captured, you know, spacecraft do you have? How many saucers are there?
bunch of scientists and researchers who could be working on this program, on this problem who are not,
you know, people that we need to be focused on this are not because they don't have the clearances
parts of an elephant and their left hand's not talking to the right. It's not coordinated.
All of a sudden you have a multipolar world and tensions are rising and the impetus to figure out
Very traumatic.
His wife had a.
And his wife had a traumatic.
of the open source stuff as like civilian researchers are. And at best you have vital
Iamblichus, you know, there's some others with, you know, St. Thomas Aquinas with taxonomies,
Sure. Hierarchies of angels and demons. Do you think what people experience today in the form of
Lucifer, the loosest trust, like, like there's this VP of, um, space systems at Lockheed Martin,
this guy, Jim Ryder. Have you heard of him? Oh yeah.
Well, it's often like Ganon and Evola would base their thinking off of Eastern thought actually in
the Yuga periods and the Kali Yuga is the current period. And so you get this decline of, you know,
take the nuts and bolts guys and you push them a little bit and they don't know what they're
looking for. I mean, we had, um, uh, one of them working for us at, at to the stars, right? Yeah.
behind it and long history in front of it on the other side. At this point, I don't know what's going
on. We know that we were getting close to something. We were developing relationships
with the military, with their laboratories to do the kind of testing only they could do. And then
COVID hit when COVID hit all the relationship with the military really stopped. They apologized. They
said nothing else we can do. We're being told we're going to cut this down, cut this down, cut this down.
So they cut down almost everything they were going to do with us. I think maybe everything
that they were doing with us at that point. After that, I don't, I lost track of the, of the trail
of where that was going, you know? Um, but that's, that's something that fell out in the desert
somewhere out in the West. I think, I think that, I think it originally went through Art Bell maybe,
or something, or somebody gave it to him. Yeah. Arts parts. Yeah. Arts parts, maybe something like that.
And it wound its way eventually to Tom. Did you touch the material? No, I didn't touch it myself.
Okay. Do you see it at all or no? Okay. It's so fascinating. And then you have a really
interesting connection with Bob Lazar, which is you worked at the same company that he did.
Yeah. Very remote connection, but it was there. I happened to meet Bob Lazar for the first time
It's just, it's interesting. The thing is that, you know, I don't know how well.
Yeah. We've exchanged emails. And of course he was part of to the stars and I met him here,
step is the big one. If you can find a way to achieve that kind of ascent to the very first level,
to the part where you know, not that you can think about it, not that you can brag about it, not that
That's awesome. Cool.
And thanks to Lincoln for bringing this together as well.