or religious event and you looked at it you know from the observations scientifically. Fatima is

last operation um they didn't see the virgin they they saw a disc uh silver thing between them and the

image it uh reminded me of a military image that George and I obtained and released to the public

process by which we may be able to interact with the entities. But so so you're saying you've been

of mine how you doing great man good to see him this is a pretty big day for us here i mean in the

the years uh he's like at the forefront of so many key moments in history not just ufo history but history

in the development of ai which is huge uh he was there at key moments in the overall investigation of

over the place he was there with jay allen hynek on project blue book in the beginning he became a

mean bass the organization that robert bigelow created to handle the contract for the dia and

designed it created it it is the world's largest ufo data warehouse that we know of anyway 260 000 cases

central america and south america all over north america as well he's been there at the forefront

those are the essential books jeremy you've been to my house you know the piles of books i don't even

the that's the core that's the core information um in the entire library he's the deepest thinker

really was sure we would do it yeah you know as i said in 2019 on the rogan podcast it's jacques

everybody was talking about the extraterrestrial hypothesis you know he pushed that on its head and

we look at the ufo phenomenon i've got a few key points of why i thought it'd be great to have him

in the same way we do and and i think you'll see that in the interview but i was really excited because as a

have him on today is because a few of the revolutions that he's created in this field is really about um

example he says that the governments don't control the phenomenon they react to it which is contrary to

that governments are not orchestrating the phenomenon and that they struggle to even understand it

u.s technology look i wish that was true he has definitively proven through his research over the

the craft themselves but what he calls the interface the human interface he once said jock valet once

in since 2017 public hearings do you see value in those hearings because it seems like the members of

asked to participate in the in the latest hearings i was asked to uh to meet with the um the the experts for

you know in terms of uh background data that that the committee could use and should know about so i i

about the long-term research and they are building some of the database uh that they can use to place the new information

uh versus the new testimony coming in and uh which is what we see you know what what you george uh you

i've worked extensively in the early days of the internet and the alpanet and that raised a lot of

uh in those days uh had a uh hearing uh with that involved uh the post office among other things to

those discussions both uh official and and back you know discussions about the impact that the network if it

different communication companies and the post office and the the consensus was that uh they could

how fast the network was going to develop and especially develop in terms of message systems and and

is the last time you put a stamp on a letter on a handwritten letter that you mailed okay and

directly or indirectly so we're not going to raise that question now so the the the message i got from

on but they it has to be balanced with the social reality and you know the uh the bureaucratic reality of

participated in that uh watching the reaction of the congressman i i think they they they understand

of these people have a background in the role of business not not in mathematics or astronomy so uh that's

the the the the data that you know that that they got from us or from the ufo community and and then

about the post office yes of course you are going to lose all first class mail in a few just a few years

with the software that we're developing which is that's what's actually you know what went on and

to private companies the fedex being the first yeah so they've lost the market they've lost the

good for the ufo topic for the american public that we're doing that again since the 60s

you know might not understand the context and i think what they are doing which is wise is to expose

now but in those days i was in in contact with some of the same people in and the scientists and russia

is brought in at the same time uh we're still waiting as you said it's been five years we're still

veil of secrecy and find out where the goodies are stored if in fact we have non-human intelligence and

hearings even if members of congress are frustrated because they can't get to that point that the

as as as you know i i was a member of the mids organization of the science board for mids in las vegas

uh my area of responsibility was uh together with the the team that they recruited was about half of the

that were done and so on uh nothing has been said about the data with the database which was really a

process on on the computer we recruited you know about 25 to 30 people who were investigators translators

know all the things that are floating around and in you know in in those several languages and countries

you need maybe 50 000 filtered cases where you maximize the information that you can you can get

name is on on the first one so i'm not you know uh disseminating any great secret but the information

you know off the road and because you know too much of it is information that looks like it's relevant to ufos

years to for data gathering around the world and translation so that everything is in english

the the data itself at the ground level not just you know pilot data not just some you know astronomical

the the the project was cut off um usually as you know i had clearances on other projects at stanford

including the data as no as classified and i respect that but there is a deeper problem here that in um

to be classified um at least throughout the development project uh when you start testing it people will

true with ufos i mean the information is in the mind of the farmer i'm going to meet somewhere you know in

which is a valuable you know idea to to look at but that's not all i mean in many of the cases i have

it appears as a point of light and people are intrigued by the point of light and then it expands

i mean the case in valenso is a perfect case it you know and so you can you can analyze with soil

the um when i i met with with the witness spent three days there with with the witness and it took us

that the people did not want to publish uh so i've i've kept them uh but very well described and

i uh publish it can i put it that he said no you know i'm the i'm running a company and uh people cannot

they may have that kind of information but so far they've only concentrated on on the the armed forces

way to do it is to say this is a potential threat now in the rest of the world people are not treating

they they their attitude certainly the scientists have spoken to was uh you know this is a fascinating

the official group studying it is uh the french science agency that's been you know since the days of

from the public and uh sending people there to do analysis and so on and you know i've worked i've been

technologies that could derive from it but the the the public is still seeing it as um you know more

i want to talk about that but a lot of people like me we get introduced to this through the nuts and

it that's what a scientist would want to do have we been successful has the united states do do we

as far as you're concerned the the investment community the venture capital community

at the end of the day you have to be able to sell something that people like uh or won't and uh so

working on it you know openly for two years and there may even so there is even the curve that uh people

you know you're not you're not going to go eat lunch in san jose you know next year and that's the way

number of things that have intrigued me that the in in documents that we've looked at you know within

know uh the mj-12 documents massive and they contain a lot of that where we can trace historically to

that there is someone within an organization who is uh an agent from the for the foreign power and you want

you have two two parts of the link uh you know i've never been trained to learn about those things but

SOP them i was told by a member of the academy of sciences who had worked on ufo's

is going to use it so you you you change the data and then you you alter the data you destroy the data

i i've turned over all my samples to dr nolan at stanford uh so that we can continue to do the

aerospace journal about the analysis of some of those cases and uh you know it's all

were acquired to the best of my ability and he knows that okay and he can he knows he can trust that

ufo data but uh at least the the data is clean to this level uh he knows i'm not salting the you know the

played as they seem to have been played with the bass project in las vegas then the data is useless

the bass project 14 years during which that database of 260 000 cases has disappeared now suppose that

if somebody wanted to essentially derail the study we were doing that would have been the way to do it

the ai was going to be applied to the project so what i'm doing is you know i have all the data

donated to the project but i have the right to use it and then a lot of it is actually public data

the days of dr hynek so uh i i understand what you can what you can do with hard physical data

know as time goes on the first one was the uh the presentation i made at saw you know a few weeks ago

uh from the condon report uh that nobody has noticed because it's in in the appendix of the

on over that forest and um and i have the wood you know i still have it not not here it's a safe place

forest the the witness was a nuclear physicist so i put him in touch with condon dr heinic and i were

to brief them on the history of all that and um i'm going to continue that that study we want to get the

that paper with my my french uh physics uh colleagues and uh it was taken to saclay in france which is the

that the the the witness saw the object pulsating and the the calculations on the energy would give

and the thing was pulsating, but it was no more than two or three meters in diameter.

got the hell out of there.

No, not all of that, because they continued to do the research afterwards.

So they took the bark from the intact part of the tree, and they sent it to the government's radiation expertise lab

This was a few years after the sighting, and they said, sure.

and Dr. Condon recomputed the energy and found twice as much from the actual distances and so on,

So I have all the data, so I'm going to continue working on it,

And in the same vein, I mean,

which is valuable because at that time, both of the witnesses were alive.

And, you know, the book was criticized with some flaws in my, you know, I mean,

the ones who actually do the work, went and got a number of documents

There are two cases where he's right about the actual name of the policeman who was there

Well, the witness is a little bit older than I am.

But after 80 years, the government has not acknowledged that as being real.

If that event happened today, I don't believe the public would ever hear about it, just as

Can you address the idea of secrecy?

And, you know, I respect the research that has been done by the, you know, Muform and

The recently, you know, well, you can still go to the site.

Hynek, you know, that there are cases, that there are cases in the Blue Book Fives that are

That was the whole point, was to reassure the public.

He said, well, you know, this is in the very early days, this woman in Alaska saw a light in the sky.

The Air Force knew that.

If they don't know the backstory.

You have to do the, you have to do the, the homework, you know, as, as you guys have done.

The trust and it's all about trust.

if you want to build something that really changes the world, it's not by spreading misinformation around or making, making little secrets look like big secrets because, uh, sooner or later you'll be caught.

It involves, if, if we keep secrets, the French are going to keep secrets.

I mean, everybody has part of the information.

I gather from your answer that you don't think we've made a lot of progress with reverse engineering, the technology.

And you've really, you've really, um, proven that case by going back into antiquity in a couple of your books and talking about how people are seeing the same things back then that they're seeing now.

And you looked at it, you know, from the observations scientifically.

I mean, there were 80,000 people there, you know, on the last apparition.

They, they saw a disc, uh, silver thing between them and the sun.

The, it, it started by three shepherds, uh, seeing just a ball of light.

That's the setting where it took place.

And also saw the area that really hasn't changed very much

on the same day of the month.

it has the same calendar we do,

and the authorities were concerned

They were rather with, you know, more the Leninist,

They tried to prevent people from going back to the place

for the travel and, you know, entire families.

They show this large crowd at the site.

the sun was covered

hired by the church

this is in the language of,

He saw the sun

between the sun and the crowd

but not of the phenomenon

in the eyes of people

because of the atmosphere

and I stared at the sun

about the miracle of 1915,

in the same conditions,

the globe of light

to the field.

the sheep didn't care.

the miracle at Fatima,

But the impact on humanity has been important.

The year, again, was a year of the communist revolution in Russia.

The Virgin appeared to her, not to her cousins who were with her, who saw the globe.

One of the messages was that Russia would be converted.

The thing that, you know, that movie that was made about the case in Argentina is extraordinary because he, you know, he started making a movie about local traditions, local beliefs of the Indians.

And if you give me time, I'll relearn enough Spanish to talk to the witness directly.

And I think he's captured exactly what the problem is.

I mean, that's well recognized in that, that last, latest case I published, you know, with, with Dr. Nolan and with, with the group.

I think the, the other cases that I'm looking at that are the very special cases where you, you will notice that, that, that case in, from 1966, 67.

This is a case that has gone through the Academy of Sciences.

That if you, if you can array the, the right tools and the right science around it, you can get to the truth.

Lacombe, the character and in close encounters based on your life arranges and, and coordinates this meeting between humans and non-humans.

That he was part of a brain trust during the first Bush administration, the dad, not the son, where they all got together, these brainiacs and experts.

And at the end of it, even somebody like Hal said, I don't think it's a good idea.

We need to consider the potential impact.

We did that when I was at the Institute for the Future.

Well, my little company was running, it wasn't secret, but it wasn't advertised, but we were funded by the nuclear, uh, industry, uh, civilian nuclear industry for three years to manage nuclear crises.

It was on TV and so on, uh, because it wasn't contained within the company.

There are 200 companies in the US running some sort of nuclear, uh, nuclear plant or nuclear applications to, you know, electrical current.

And we had at the time, uh, we were pioneers in, in, uh, computer conferencing and we had a system, uh, to, to link together up to 54, uh, online simultaneously 54, uh, uh, individuals or groups.

And we solved and extinguished a number of alerts that never became known to the press or the public because there was a simple way to fix it.

The incident could be solved technically, you know, by people knowing the information.

Uh, we had five countries by the way, linked into this, uh, because they couldn't afford, the industry couldn't afford another Three Mile Island.

The, what does it take to, uh, present that to the public?

Um, you know, I'm old enough to remember the end of World War II.

I don't remember the beginning, but I remember the end.

I remember the invasion of France.

The goal, the goal had, uh, moved to London and, uh, started the resistance and made the link with the resistance.

Uh, he was accused of being on the extreme right, but he had the communists with him.

And he had the admin, much of the administration that was still in place.

Well, you know, they, they brought back their initial CEO who had been dismissed by the board of Apple 10 years before.

So, um, the, that's what it takes is leadership.

It, it all depends if you, if you trust your leader, whether that's in war or in business, uh, or in a situation where the desperate situation like France and it was invaded, became part of Germany, essentially.

So the question is, is arising with UFOs, you know, uh, is, uh, uh, at the time when it becomes obvious that, that the phenomenon is here, is there going to be a leader who can reassure the population and the scientific community, which right now is silent.

The, uh, the, uh, UFO, uh, medium, you know, the UFO, they don't trust what they see on TV.

And, uh, it left imprints on the ground.

You know, that's a mold from the thing before the, the dirt, you know, and at that point only the, the, the cops had, the gendarmes had access to it.

Um, there, there are, there are, of course, in the cast, there are, uh, leaves of grass that are stuck to it.

And there was, um, so, uh, I'm, uh, those are the cases I continue to work with.

People to, you know, help me interview the witnesses.

And when you showed me the image, it, uh, reminded me of, uh, a military image that George and I obtained and released to the public.

To the family home with, uh, two, uh, two girls in their early teens in the back of the car.

So they were looking at the sky through the, through the glass and the, ahead of the car, they saw an object coming towards them.

Uh, and they, uh, the woman had this old camera and you can see the sky.

And the, the, the photograph is not good enough, but we'll work.

Uh, if it's a shadow, it's interesting because we, we know the exact time.

The woman is a professional woman.

Uh, the, uh, that's her camera, but she was driving.

And, and one of the girls took that picture through this glass.

So this was about seven years ago and, you know, way before the, all of the stories about drones and so on.

And she said, she wanted nothing to do with, you know, with the officials, because again, she, many people now in the U S and in France and in other countries have gotten it.

They don't want to have to testify to the police and so on.

It looks so similar to the one, the military footage.

But when Jacques showed me that I had heard about the case, it's just amazing that there's still so much reporting going on, but it's not going to a central location.

And, uh, you know, the public is really excited.

Um, is there a model that you would, you would recommend that could be used to push the topic forward?

The very first meeting of the Science Advisory Board is two weeks from the time when we are talking here today.

You had great freedom to follow the evidence where it led, but you're not allowed to share that information.

What that does your picture show, you know, other things, planets or, you know, oh no, it's just a light in the sky.

Hainesville, that's the title of my call.

Uh, what about the wood that I have that, that I, you know, was last year, it was tested, you know, at an atomic lab in France.

That we're going to continue working with, you know, those, uh, the same thing in, um, in medicine, you know, people chase ambulances.

So when you talk to the scientists, they, they are not looking at the last thing that was on TV.

And that's certainly, you know, I, I think my last responsibility in this field is to transmit some of that, which is why I wanted to talk about the 1966 Hainesville case, you know, and really put it down, you know, reawaken it from its ashes and, uh, and, and bring it, bring it forward.

you know, was, uh, essentially the most outstanding team I've ever worked with in, in science.

Green, uh, all of us, uh, you know, had specialties, but we all brought something to the, to, to, to, to the meeting.

And I implemented it based on the structure that the specialist gave me, which is what you do in, you know, when you're a computer guy.

So, um, and, and, you know, the, the other people didn't know what I was doing, um, apart from, apart from that and with other cases.

And that, that information can be contained and you're all in the same room working on the same device.

And I don't know what they've done with their samples from the same case.

They think that they are the only ones who have, who know about that case.

They came there and they said, we need the, the thing.

Uh, where the, the actual stuff that was, was picked up by, uh, Dr. Stanford and Dr. Hynek was never returned to them.

Uh, Dr. Stanford died in the meantime.

Uh, but the witness kept the number five sample.

Now the people back there are surprised that I'm talking about that case because they think they have the only samples and they are secret.

And, and the whole thing was a joke.

Well, that, that idea comes from a discussion I had in France with, with scientists and with, and because I was showing them the statistics that I had.

And then after you get all the, you know, the delusions, illusions, clouds, moon, all that out of it.

The hard data follows a periodicity, which is very strange, that, that looks like an induction sequence.

You know, with things that repeat, but don't quite repeat the same way all the time.

And that's the thing that was cut off, you know, and essentially taken from us with no explanation before we could get to redo that.

That's the big secret.

If I step out on the balcony, you know, I'm going to get a completely different temperature.

If I wanted to test it, I could light a fire, you know, warm up the temperature inside and see if something controls it and dampens it down.

And many people don't believe that the environment is changing and there are scientists who for the last 50 years have said, yes, the environment is changing.

Well, they got, they got there because the temperature of France is going up two degrees in a few years, two degrees in a few years.

It's the environment.

Many people say, you know, there is many UFOs manifest the way plasmas would be manifesting.

So, but the UFOs we're talking about are not that.

The way Skinner reinforcement schedule would train a mouse or, you know, a man to learn something?

They don't really give you the steps.

And then you graduate, not so at the PhD level.

But there was something in the process, which was not written down anywhere where they didn't get the degree.

Uh, they wanted to know, of course, what the French were doing.

The firemen of Munich were not happy and they were on strike.

They didn't know they were going to be released after three weeks, but they were put in the same regime as the, um, inmates of the concentration camp.

a prominent advisor to the goal and prominent publisher in Paris.

He said, I think UFOs may be the same thing.

So I cannot be completely sure, but what they described to me is a very sophisticated process by which we may be able to interact with the entities.

They are not the entities that were, uh, caught in Brazil, um, that, that are, you know, in that documentary.

They may be the higher level entity.

And this was from years ago, by the way.

And the, and the, and, and, and that this is a reality.

Uh, it, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the people I spoke to couldn't probe it, uh, to see if it was made of flesh or metal or, or, or, or something else.

The, the person I spoke to was, uh, uh, an extreme, you know, specialist in, in a particular discipline.

I don't think the, the entities from Trinity, you know, were obviously scared.

The, the, the witness was still alive, you know, uh, we've become close friends with him.

He knows the cattle.

But I, I think it's something that the soldiers, that the military brought, and they forgot to take it back.

So, uh, it may have been there just for the convenience of the soldiers doing work at night or whatever.

Uh, the craft itself, we had very good description of it, by the way, the, the shape and the, the, you know, the look and feel as, as people say in Silicon Valley is identical to the one in Socorro.

And what's funny is when people, uh, were, uh, describing it in a newspaper and they, they always hire an illustrator and the illustrator always draws a disc.

If there was a, an engine, it would have been under the floor.

And they could see the underside.

And, you know, when BAS was initiated, the, the task given by the DIA for us was to look at, um, you know, propulsion, um, uh, weight and, and all kinds of things that would be the ordinary things that you'd want to know about a rocket.

In the sense of we think about propulsion with engines and fuel and so on.

And I've experienced the physical data about that site physically in my body.

You, you got the site.

And I was in, in that classified room, you know, on the third floor of the SRI, in Menlo Park.

I was at the other end of the table.

I want you to stay with that because you, you went to the site.

Well, in depth, most of the time we went step by step and he wanted to see how good he could refine it with somebody who was not a remote viewer, but understood what remote viewing was by spontaneously.

You're looking at the UFO phenomenon and you're, you're seeing that it's so vast and you've looked at it through a lens that, that most people haven't.

And I want to see if you still feel the same way.

Do you still feel the same way after all these decades of research?

You have created such a huge impact on the way that we look at the UFO phenomenon, which you yourself admit we still don't know much about, but I'm going to ask you the same question to end this episode that I asked you on my ranch that day.

And if not, what is the questions we should be asking about UFOs?

Everything is going to be in question, uh, not just the physics.

I mean, just look at, you know, the, the silly things we do about the moon right now, about just going to our closest satellite, you know?

Are you going to get answers down to fundamental misunderstandings about the nature of the relationship?

And that basically the universe is not a space time universe that it's, uh, the, the, what we perceive at space and time is, uh, a derived, um, quality from something else, which is much larger.

But we can trust the witnesses, uh, and we have to get away from that feeling that, uh, this is only a threat.

Um, I hope that we get some satisfaction within our lifetimes, that more of this will come out, but none of it will, unless we keep, uh, you know, trying to understand the phenomenon.