2,222 segments
All these people conducting this seance were bringing in these nine maybe extraterrestrial
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beings, maybe beings that go to the nine Egyptian gods, but it's like a council.
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He really was a genuine believer.
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I'm Andrea Puharic. I'm a physician by training, a research scientist by choice.
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We have tape recordings of him meditating in the king's chamber.
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And they brought through this information. Apparently they're channeling this Egyptian god.
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And there are specifically nine Egyptian gods.
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So he gets this called metallic voice. That was some sort of alien intelligence.
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This is what you hear a lot about this with the UFO abduction stuff.
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These people weren't looking to be in the spotlight.
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It took about two years for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids.
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It's like stranger things in real life.
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You know, one neat solution that would explain everything away would be mind control, right?
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Delgado, implanted radio receivers in the heads of bull.
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Delgado has remote control of the animal.
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You have a guy who's being able to play the bull like a video game.
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I'm revealing for the first time a lot of things that even my closest working colleagues do not know.
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There's reason to believe Puharic may have been a double agent.
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This is one of the craziest interviews I've ever done, man.
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The ignition sequence 5.
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How is this possible?
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Nothing too unusual about that.
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The existence cannot longer be denied.
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I'm here with Greg Malazzi.
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This has been a long time coming.
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We've had a lot of interesting offline conversations.
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You made an amazing documentary called Mind Traveler about this very mysterious mid-century scientist named Andrea Puharic.
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Who is like this zealig of American conspiracies.
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He's this architect of MKUltra and early CIA mind control techniques.
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But also seems to be channeling aliens through what he calls the space kids.
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This like collection of kids who he recruits who are psychic.
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He's the inspiration for Star Trek incidentally.
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He is one of the most interesting people I've ever encountered.
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And you've made this amazing documentary on him.
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So I just can't wait to dive into this.
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And I appreciate you being here.
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I appreciate you having me.
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So give me a little bit about the origin story for Andrea Puharic.
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And how did he come to be one of these kind of renegade spooky scientists involved in mind control?
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I guess you could start it at Northwestern University.
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He was a medical student.
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I think he started in 47.
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And so he was there doing all sorts of stuff with the nervous system.
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He was very interested in that.
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And he was doing like normal medical training.
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And he was actually part of the Army Specialized Training Program.
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Have you heard of this?
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It's this special program where basically they recruit students who they believe could be useful to whatever they're planning on doing in certain categories of the Army, whether it be medical, so forth.
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He was a medical doctor.
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And he was part of this program.
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Kissinger was part of this program.
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A bunch of other weird people.
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Kurt Vonnegut, the author.
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Yeah, you could look it up.
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So he was part of that.
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Basically, it was like sort of a recruiting program.
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And they saw something in him all the way back in 47 when he was a medical student.
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And he very rarely, in fact, I've never even heard him mention this in all the stuff I've listened to and read about him.
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So for whatever reason, he didn't talk about it.
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And that could have been his first step into that world, the military world.
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But that happened when he was a medical student, like way before the Roundtable Foundation, the first lab he had or anything like that.
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What did this military program, this Army program involve?
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Even on Wikipedia, there's not much about it.
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But again, I think it was more like looking at certain institutions, certain places for people who are special.
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I mean, Army specialized training.
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And he was considered special at that time for what he was doing.
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And they just saw something in him.
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And he was brought into that program.
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I don't know what it did exactly or, you know, what like, yeah, the day-to-day or anything.
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But he was part of it as well as like, again, a list of other people, like in all areas, right?
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Again, Kurt Vonnegut, the author, like all these people were a part of that.
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Where was he a medical student?
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Northwestern, Chicago.
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Which, you know, is a very prestigious school.
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And I think also Jalen Hynek was, you know, his astronomer blue book was Northwestern too.
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Okay, so he's in the Chicago suburbs and he's a medical student.
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And how does he get into like telepathy and mind control and things like that?
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I came up with a theory of the nervous system that I called the Puharich theory.
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I visualized the nervous system as being embedded in the cell tissue of the body,
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just as the roots of a tree are embedded in the ground, which gives it nourishment.
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But the tree also has a similar network radiating into the sky.
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Perhaps man does as well.
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And he too gains nourishment through a touchless process.
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And if dynamics can be transferred, why camp thoughts?
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So, he was, yeah, a medical student.
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And there's a guy also at Northwestern at the time named Warren S. McCullough.
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Do you know who that is?
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You could do an episode on him.
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He's like, you know, the Puharich on steroids, sort of, back then at least.
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But he was this very far out researcher into basically ESP stuff back then.
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He was very interested in like, you know, altering drugs, psychedelic drugs, mind altering stuff.
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For the audience, ESP is extrasensory perception.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, extrasensory perception.
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So, he was at Northwestern, this guy McCullough.
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I think I'm pronouncing that right.
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But he sort of took Puharich under his wing and, from what I understand, was the first person who introduced him to, you know, whatever weird science, if you want to call it that.
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Because he was one of these guys, McCullough, who would, you know, on his off time, do all these like, strange experiments with radio frequencies and that kind of stuff.
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And I think like, in the academic setting, he had to, you know, put on a suit and tie and like, not talk about that, basically.
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But he also was very involved in intelligence stuff.
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Like, he was always getting sort of like, we have letters from like, CIA and stuff back then, who were kind of going to him with questions and so forth.
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And he actually, there was an archive in, I think it wasn't Northwestern.
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It was some bizarre archive I found years ago, making the film.
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And, you know, I know you had Annie Jacobson on, like she's in the film.
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And she was trying to find records on McCullough because, you know, it was really interesting.
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It was part of the Puharich story.
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And somehow we found this like, big stash of archives of his that, again, were these letters from CIA and the Navy and everything, sort of, I guess, wanting to recruit him.
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But in those letters, there were letters from McCullough back to these agencies saying, you know, you should check this guy Puharich out.
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You know, he's, I work with him.
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And he was older, like much older than Puharich at that time.
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I think he was probably like, you know, in his 70s or 80s or something.
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So, you know, he passed on.
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But basically that, I think, triggered Puharich, got very interested in the subject.
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So he became almost like obsessed with it.
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And he sort of had this moment back then where he's like, I'm either going to choose the traditional academic path or I'm going to choose the, you know, path of ESP telepathy.
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And he talks very openly about like making that choice.
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I was unexpectedly put in contact with Henry A. Wallace, vice president under Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
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He was impressed by my quest for the existence of telepathy and granted me a large sum of money.
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Additional benefactors emerged, including the heirs to two of the wealthiest families in the world, the Astors and the DuPonts.
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I was able to get a barn. I started working in the dead of winter in 48th and in Maine.
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We lived in a big 50 room house on the seashore, which was a lab and residence and so on.
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It was called the Roundtable Foundation.
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And so he opens the Roundtable Foundation.
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So there's a lot going on with how that even opened because it's a huge lab.
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It's like a massive barn.
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It's on the coast of Maine, Rockland, Maine, it's called.
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So, you know, it's this huge place.
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He's got like a staff, you know, all in the thing with Puharich.
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I learned like he tells a different story of how the Roundtable started and how we got the money and everything to what we kind of figured out was really going on.
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What did you figure out?
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Well, it was all, you know, government funded at that time.
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Who funded? It was the CIA?
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Everyone. Army, Navy, CIA, something called the something armor foundation that was somehow tied into the army.
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But basically any of those places back then, I mean, we have letters of all of them.
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You get army, you name it.
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I mean, they were just like flocking to this place, basically giving him money to do research.
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And this was, yeah, 49, 50, very early.
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And you think their preliminary interest was mind control, telepathy, anything beyond the purview of kind of normal materialist reductionist physics that might be able to be weaponized or confer a tactical advantage to the United States?
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It's complex, but yes, the short answer is yes.
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But I think obviously there was an interest in ESP and in what he was doing and in this idea of, okay, what if this is real?
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I mean, he speaks a lot and we, you know, we've uncovered like hundreds of tape recordings of his that no one's ever heard.
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And so, you know, he talks a lot about like, they were just obsessed at that time with like, what if this were real?
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What are the implications?
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What if somebody could basically remote view?
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I mean, he was doing remote viewing.
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And this is something like, I don't think is really out there.
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Like way, way before SRI 70s, like we're talking early 50s.
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He's basically doing what would be considered remote viewing.
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Do you think Hal Puthoff was aware of Puharich's kind of foundation that he set with remote viewing?
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Because the story is that, you know, official American remote viewing kind of started with Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ and Stanford Research Institute.
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I'm not trying to make bold statements, but that's just, that's not, you know, true.
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If you look, if you're looking at it from a like research, when did this start?
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Because we have like all of the round table research, which is so much.
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I mean, even all the time we spent on the film, it's, I still haven't looked at it at all, but they basically detail the experiments going on, which were, you know, your classic ESP stuff, you know, like the cards, all that.
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But no, they were doing like what would exactly the definition of like remote viewing.
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And so, yeah, I think they were, they, you know, intelligence community, so forth, were just very intrigued with what was going on there.
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So it's a combination of kind of, you know, these military factions and then these kind of blue blooded elites.
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And what exactly is going on there?
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So who is he recruiting to do these experiments and what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation?
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What exactly is going on there?
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So who is he recruiting to do these experiments, and what sort of experiments is he running at the Roundtable Foundation?
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So, again, it started with a lot of just basic ESP stuff.
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You know, can somebody pick up on what's written on a letter in the other room?
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A lot of, yeah, like the card guessing.
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And then he obviously built a Faraday cage there, and I think, you know, was one of the first people, as far as I understand, doing ESP tests in a Faraday cage, where basically he would put people who claimed to be psychic in the cage.
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And it was his belief that that could sort of block out anything from the outside, and it would really help the psychic focus and be able to do what they could do.
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And he had, I mean, Aldous Huxley would go to the Roundtable Foundation, right?
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And obviously, Aldous Huxley is known probably best for a lot of his science fiction work, but also, you know, the Doors of Perception, where he talks about his experience with Mescaline.
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And then, you know, if you really get into the maybe deeper kind of architectures of his thinking, like in perennial philosophy, he's like clearly this kind of deep esotericist.
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And so he was hanging out at the Roundtable Foundation, too.
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Yeah, they were good friends.
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In fact, on Buharic's book, The Sacred Mushroom, which is how I got into this whole thing.
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I had read that book when I was much younger, and I was really interested in all that stuff.
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And, you know, what's the book?
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DMT, The Spirit Molecule.
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Yeah, I was really into that.
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And I came across The Sacred Mushroom, Buharic's book, which is very interesting.
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I think I have it, but I haven't read it.
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The premise is basically, you know, and this was also the research he was doing at the Roundtable, was, you know, taking a certain type of mushroom.
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In this instance, the Amanita muscaria, you know, gives people ESP abilities, and they did extensive research on that there.
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But on the cover of that book, you know, Aldous Huxley gives a blurb for Buharic and calls him, you know, the greatest mind in parapsychology.
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But yeah, they were good friends.
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He was there all the time.
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Again, very interested in what he was doing.
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Really thought Buharic was, like, on to something.
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And the Amanita muscaria mushroom is a very interesting mushroom.
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It's the kind of archetypal, you know, emoji on all of our, you know, cell phones or iPhones, at least.
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But it also, I believe, John Marco Allegro, who was, you know, a scholar of various, you know, ancient languages, he came to the very heretical conclusion that the Eucharist itself was an Amanita muscaria mushroom.
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And so the actual transubstantiation involved this, like, mushroom.
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And that maybe what Jesus underwent was some sort of kind of pagan mystery ritual that allowed him to sort of gain the magical powers that he achieved in the book of Acts.
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And that that whole thing had some kind of hermetic meaning that, you know, isn't just maybe a literal reincarnation or something.
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And so I assume that must have, because I think the name of his book is similar.
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It's the sacred mushroom in the cross or something.
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So was there maybe some influence there with Buharic?
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You know, from what I understand, when Buharic's book came out, it was, you know, it's now sort of like a cult classic.
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But at the time, it was like, you know, controversial because basically people just didn't believe in what he was writing.
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And that, I think, kind of kick-started the, you know, way people looked at Buharic as being, you know, kind of like a kook.
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But he clearly wasn't.
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Clearly, but he was, he also was amongst, he was kind of a pioneer and had a few peers who were also at the forefront of their fields.
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People like Albert Hoffman, Karl Ruck, and Stanislav Grof, who thought of themselves as creating what they called the new Eleusis, based on kind of, you know, past mystery rituals, the Eleusinian mystery rituals.
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And they involved Urgot and psychedelic substances and, you know, these sort of, you know, Persephone's quest style.
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You know, you go down, you descend to the underworld and you come back up and you, you know, you gain knowledge of your primordial soul.
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And so, Buharic was, you know, he was amidst this backdrop.
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He was, he was sort of on his, on his come up, which, you know, maybe isn't a coincidence.
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We are the positive principles of the cosmos.
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We penetrate, visit persons.
[0:20:08 - 0:20:11] ▶
We work through this body, but it is under our control.
[0:20:12 - 0:20:15] ▶
We nine and our will.
[0:20:17 - 0:20:20] ▶
The very first time that I heard about the nine was through Dr. Vinod.
[0:20:20 - 0:20:26] ▶
I've never seen people like this that I've studied.
[0:20:27 - 0:20:30] ▶
Dr. Vinod had become a channel for a civilization somewhere out there from outer space.
[0:20:31 - 0:20:37] ▶
It's so alien to our thinking, we can't even comprehend it.
[0:20:37 - 0:20:40] ▶
They call themselves, these beings, the nine.
[0:20:42 - 0:20:45] ▶
But what is the nine?
[0:20:45 - 0:20:47] ▶
They said, well, it's hard to explain to you.
[0:20:47 - 0:20:49] ▶
We're not personalities as you think of personalities.
[0:20:49 - 0:20:52] ▶
We're more like laws or principles of the universe.
[0:20:52 - 0:20:55] ▶
The part of Buharic's story where I think things sort of change in his life is when, you know, this instance happens when they first channel the nine, which was in 52.
[0:20:56 - 0:21:12] ▶
All these people were there.
[0:21:15 - 0:21:16] ▶
Again, these were people who were like benefactors who were interested in what he was doing.
[0:21:16 - 0:21:21] ▶
But it all started with this guy, Vinod.
[0:21:21 - 0:21:24] ▶
You may have heard this name.
[0:21:24 - 0:21:26] ▶
He was an Indian psychic.
[0:21:26 - 0:21:29] ▶
He came to the round table again through recommendation of somebody Buharic was working with.
[0:21:30 - 0:21:36] ▶
And the story goes, he shows up in Maine, goes to the round table foundation.
[0:21:36 - 0:21:42] ▶
And the first night he's there, he just unexpectedly falls into a trance.
[0:21:42 - 0:21:48] ▶
And, you know, they're like, what's going on here?
[0:21:49 - 0:21:52] ▶
Someone grabs a tape recorder, which we have the tapes of.
[0:21:52 - 0:21:55] ▶
And he goes into a trance and he just starts speaking, you know, saying, you know, we are the nine and where we're coming through to you now.
[0:21:55 - 0:22:05] ▶
And just kind of on and on and on and on about a lot of philosophical new age sort of stuff, basically.
[0:22:05 - 0:22:14] ▶
I mean, it's really, really, it's a lot.
[0:22:14 - 0:22:17] ▶
I mean, there's thousands of pages, literally, of transcripts of what they recorded with him.
[0:22:17 - 0:22:22] ▶
But that's how the story goes of how the nine first appear as basically this guy, Vinod.
[0:22:22 - 0:22:28] ▶
So the interesting thing about this guy, Dr. Vinod was his name.
[0:22:29 - 0:22:34] ▶
He was friends with Gandhi, right?
[0:22:34 - 0:22:37] ▶
They were really close.
[0:22:37 - 0:22:38] ▶
So this was something I learned like way later into the process of the film.
[0:22:39 - 0:22:42] ▶
Because, you know, this was, as you know, it took like almost 10 years.
[0:22:43 - 0:22:47] ▶
And it was mostly because these new facts and things would just like come up that I never knew.
[0:22:47 - 0:22:53] ▶
Or somebody would say, hey, have you seen this?
[0:22:53 - 0:22:54] ▶
And so Vinod, like I only really discovered a couple years into it, but he was an interesting guy.
[0:22:54 - 0:23:01] ▶
And he was on a tour at the time in the United States going to like rotary clubs and dinner parties,
[0:23:01 - 0:23:09] ▶
like lecturing about theosophy and spiritualism and all sorts of stuff like that.
[0:23:10 - 0:23:17] ▶
And it is very, very little information on this guy.
[0:23:17 - 0:23:21] ▶
I mean, we tried to dig up like everything we possibly could.
[0:23:21 - 0:23:24] ▶
But that's what we know about him.
[0:23:24 - 0:23:26] ▶
He was a professor at a university in Bombay.
[0:23:27 - 0:23:30] ▶
And again, with Buharic, like he never mentions any of that.
[0:23:31 - 0:23:34] ▶
His version of the story is this guy, they just randomly came in, fell into a trance, no context, you know, never mentions it.
[0:23:34 - 0:23:42] ▶
So that begins this like, okay, what's really going on here?
[0:23:43 - 0:23:46] ▶
Because he clearly has a background that's interesting that he just never mentioned.
[0:23:46 - 0:23:53] ▶
And then when Vinod leaves, eventually, I think 54, he goes back and it never talks about him again.
[0:23:53 - 0:23:58] ▶
You know, there was this huge moment in his life.
[0:23:59 - 0:24:01] ▶
The nine first comes through, through this guy.
[0:24:01 - 0:24:04] ▶
And he just sort of like never talks about it.
[0:24:04 - 0:24:07] ▶
I think that's where the conspiracy starts as far as what people believe to be like, I guess, a psyop.
[0:24:07 - 0:24:14] ▶
I mean, we don't have to get into that now.
[0:24:15 - 0:24:18] ▶
No, I want to get into the psyop elements of it.
[0:24:19 - 0:24:22] ▶
But it sounds like fundamentally he's a believer in extrasensory perception, psychic abilities, right?
[0:24:22 - 0:24:29] ▶
He's not cynical about those things.
[0:24:29 - 0:24:30] ▶
No, yeah, that's, I think, a big question.
[0:24:32 - 0:24:35] ▶
And even now, I always think.
[0:24:35 - 0:24:38] ▶
But, I mean, yeah, there's just no question he was interested in that.
[0:24:38 - 0:24:40] ▶
Or do you think it was some front?
[0:24:42 - 0:24:44] ▶
Oh, earnestly, yeah.
[0:24:44 - 0:24:45] ▶
Because, and we'll get into this in a little bit, but there are also possible prosaic explanations
[0:24:46 - 0:24:51] ▶
around exotic electromagnetic wavelengths that can cause, you know, thoughts to be implanted
[0:24:51 - 0:24:57] ▶
in people and stuff, which is nuts.
[0:24:57 - 0:25:00] ▶
But I think he wouldn't reduce everything to that, would be my rough understanding personally.
[0:25:00 - 0:25:07] ▶
Yeah, there's a lot to get into there.
[0:25:09 - 0:25:10] ▶
But basically, so what did the nine say?
[0:25:10 - 0:25:12] ▶
And so, again, it's really, it's a lot.
[0:25:13 - 0:25:17] ▶
So I have to give a shout out to Dick Russell.
[0:25:17 - 0:25:19] ▶
And he's written some amazing books.
[0:25:24 - 0:25:26] ▶
And so he was friends with this woman, Marianne Shenefield, this, you know, allegedly amazing
[0:25:26 - 0:25:33] ▶
She passed away, but I got to know Dick.
[0:25:34 - 0:25:36] ▶
And he said, you know, I met Buharic once.
[0:25:37 - 0:25:41] ▶
In fact, I tape recorded an interview with him.
[0:25:41 - 0:25:44] ▶
It was 94, literally the year before Buharic died slash was found dead mysteriously.
[0:25:44 - 0:25:51] ▶
But he recorded an interview with him.
[0:25:51 - 0:25:53] ▶
Because at the time, Dick Russell was wanting to write like a definitive book about MK Ultra.
[0:25:53 - 0:25:59] ▶
And he wanted to interview these people involved.
[0:25:59 - 0:26:02] ▶
And in fact, he has one of the only interviews, as far as I know, with Sidney Gottlieb.
[0:26:02 - 0:26:07] ▶
He spent a whole day with him.
[0:26:08 - 0:26:09] ▶
He literally told me to show it up at his house and said, hey, you know, yes or no, will you let me interview you?
[0:26:09 - 0:26:15] ▶
So that this was part of that research he was doing for a book.
[0:26:18 - 0:26:21] ▶
But just for the audience real quick, because I know we're getting into what the nine said.
[0:26:21 - 0:26:25] ▶
But Sidney Gottlieb was known as the kind of U.S. version of Joseph Mengele, a poisoner in chief, an architect of MK Ultra from the technical staff services.
[0:26:25 - 0:26:35] ▶
So that's wild that Russell spent a whole day with him.
[0:26:35 - 0:26:37] ▶
So what are the nine saying?
[0:26:38 - 0:26:39] ▶
So, yeah, it's a lot of the sort of usual, I guess, channeling talk where there's this idea that there's been this surveillance of Earth.
[0:26:40 - 0:26:57] ▶
And that they've been monitoring Earth and they've been seeing the negative things happening.
[0:26:57 - 0:27:04] ▶
They've been seeing wars.
[0:27:04 - 0:27:06] ▶
They've been seeing nuclear weapons.
[0:27:07 - 0:27:08] ▶
And they're wanting to help, basically.
[0:27:09 - 0:27:12] ▶
The general message is this idea that they are wanting to help the human race, you know, basically not destroy itself.
[0:27:12 - 0:27:20] ▶
This, you know, goes on way through the 70s when Buharic, the nine come back.
[0:27:21 - 0:27:27] ▶
Like, uh, but it was basically a lot of, yeah, trying to help humanity.
[0:27:27 - 0:27:32] ▶
It was a lot of, like, you've probably heard a lot about how they, sometimes these channelers are, uh, you know, what is it called?
[0:27:32 - 0:27:39] ▶
Like remote writing when someone's in a trance.
[0:27:39 - 0:27:41] ▶
There was a lot of, like, very complex equations that would come through.
[0:27:43 - 0:27:48] ▶
That would, the nine, meaning Vinod in a trance, speaking as the nine.
[0:27:48 - 0:27:53] ▶
And a lot of, like, write this down because you'll understand later what it means sort of stuff.
[0:27:53 - 0:27:58] ▶
And we have this notebook that he wrote everything in.
[0:27:58 - 0:28:01] ▶
It's, it's really, I mean, maybe I'm sure you might know somebody who could look at this.
[0:28:02 - 0:28:06] ▶
I mean, I, I'm just making the film.
[0:28:06 - 0:28:08] ▶
I mean, I, I'm very.
[0:28:09 - 0:28:09] ▶
Well, we should see if any of it checks with actual science or math or.
[0:28:09 - 0:28:14] ▶
They would say the nine, they would say, you know, okay, look, you're contacting us through a psychic.
[0:28:15 - 0:28:23] ▶
But if you want a clearer feed of a clearer transmission, you have to put the psychic in a Faraday cage.
[0:28:23 - 0:28:31] ▶
And on top of that, you should tweak the Faraday cage and build it this way and use this type of metal and use this.
[0:28:31 - 0:28:40] ▶
They were, they were telling him and constructing him how to like build the Faraday cage in a specific way that would like help this transmission.
[0:28:40 - 0:28:50] ▶
And it did because you can hear the tapes.
[0:28:50 - 0:28:53] ▶
It was a lot, it was very like stalled speech and waiting.
[0:28:53 - 0:28:56] ▶
And then when they did the Faraday cage sessions, it was like, just boom, they would talk.
[0:28:56 - 0:29:01] ▶
So I heard that and I was like, okay, well that that's weird.
[0:29:01 - 0:29:05] ▶
You know, because like, again, there's a lot of it that you could just say, oh, you know, this could have been made up or whatever.
[0:29:06 - 0:29:12] ▶
But when it gets to that, it was very, very specific stuff.
[0:29:12 - 0:29:16] ▶
You know, copper, they're, they're big on copper.
[0:29:16 - 0:29:18] ▶
You need to use that.
[0:29:18 - 0:29:19] ▶
And it needs to be, you know, these dimensions, I mean, really specific stuff and they would follow it.
[0:29:19 - 0:29:24] ▶
So they were basically like following instructions from the nine.
[0:29:24 - 0:29:29] ▶
And you see the results get better as far as their channeling.
[0:29:29 - 0:29:32] ▶
You see the results get better.
[0:29:32 - 0:29:34] ▶
And that again, to me, I just thought that's, that's, that's interesting because it's not just sort of like, you know, spiritual mumbo jumbo.
[0:29:34 - 0:29:44] ▶
That's like totally unfalsifiable.
[0:29:45 - 0:29:47] ▶
It's like the, literally like the transmissions are coming.
[0:29:48 - 0:29:50] ▶
When you say that it's getting better, it's just like more, more gets channeled, like more.
[0:29:50 - 0:29:56] ▶
So more information, clearer.
[0:29:56 - 0:29:57] ▶
Just sort of more precise.
[0:29:58 - 0:29:59] ▶
And the other thing too, was again, it was this copper, this thing with copper, where they would also say, okay, what you need to do is you need to get the, this is really crazy.
[0:29:59 - 0:30:11] ▶
Cause of what happens later on in his story.
[0:30:11 - 0:30:13] ▶
And his story, but they would say, you know, you need to have copper touching your, your skin.
[0:30:13 - 0:30:18] ▶
And so you would, you would need some sort of like bracelet or something that would kind of like constantly be touching your skin in order again, for like the, the transmission to be better.
[0:30:18 - 0:30:31] ▶
And they would do that.
[0:30:31 - 0:30:32] ▶
And what's crazy is, uh, one of the space kids that I met and that we interviewed for the film, she whipped out this, uh, this was, you know, only a couple of years ago.
[0:30:32 - 0:30:43] ▶
She whipped out this bracelet she had that was like a copper, a little copper plate on this bracelet that she said, like they all had to wear when they were doing their channeling sessions with him decades later.
[0:30:43 - 0:30:55] ▶
So the copper thing is strange.
[0:30:55 - 0:30:57] ▶
And he, and Puharic obsessed over that.
[0:30:57 - 0:30:59] ▶
And that's the other thing to me, you know, being a little skeptical, I was like, well, someone of Puharic's, uh, you know, academic abilities, like clearly he, he, he wouldn't take the time.
[0:30:59 - 0:31:12] ▶
And the energy, like to look into this stuff as deep as he did, you know, like he like obsessed over this, he would go meet other academics.
[0:31:12 - 0:31:20] ▶
Hey, does this check out?
[0:31:20 - 0:31:22] ▶
And, you know, he really like was obsessive about this being legitimate.
[0:31:22 - 0:31:27] ▶
And Phyllis Schlamer, who later wrote the only planet of choice, which channels the nine.
[0:31:28 - 0:31:34] ▶
I think she talks about the nine with respect to messages around the earth being a bottleneck of consciousness.
[0:31:34 - 0:31:41] ▶
And like other planets being more ascended and these nine really trying to help raise consciousness on earth, which might sort of sound like a cliche, but.
[0:31:42 - 0:31:53] ▶
One thing that they were doing at the round table, uh, were, was that this psychic, uh, this one particular psychic would, would claim that at a certain time of night, uh, they would see an orb.
[0:31:54 - 0:32:07] ▶
And they would go outside by the ocean and they would see orbs.
[0:32:07 - 0:32:12] ▶
Uh, and this happened.
[0:32:12 - 0:32:13] ▶
And the only, you know, evidence I, I have is Buharic's own writing, cause we have all of his journals and he writes this in his journals where he literally says like this psychic would just blur it out.
[0:32:13 - 0:32:23] ▶
You know, 11 o'clock, you know, tonight and they'd go out and they would see an orb.
[0:32:23 - 0:32:28] ▶
And I just thought that was interesting because of there's, there's so much talk of this orb stuff going on.
[0:32:30 - 0:32:35] ▶
Well, I don't know a whole lot about it, but I just, that kind of rang a bell where I'm like, oh yeah, he wrote about that.
[0:32:35 - 0:32:41] ▶
And he, he, he did many experiments where he allegedly took photos, which of course, you know, weren't in the big stash of photos we had from back then.
[0:32:41 - 0:32:51] ▶
But he, he, that's what he claimed that there was like orb activity.
[0:32:51 - 0:32:55] ▶
This would have been, you know, early fifties again.
[0:32:55 - 0:32:57] ▶
So trippy. Yeah. No, that, uh, almost sounds like Chris Bledsoe or something.
[0:32:59 - 0:33:03] ▶
These people who seem to attract, uh, these orbs and it would make sense because those people also seem to be sort of high psi or, you know, you know, have higher kind of mind matter capabilities or whatever.
[0:33:04 - 0:33:14] ▶
There's some, seems like there's some sort of correlation there. The connection Lavenda makes is that all these people conducting the seance, bringing in these nine, maybe extraterrestrial beings, maybe beings that go to the
[0:33:14 - 0:33:28] ▶
nine Egyptian, uh, gods or whatever. We don't exactly know what these nine beings are, but it's like a council. And, and later the nine praise plays prominently because this channel or Phyllis Schlamer, uh, like gets all these messages from the nine along with a lot of the kids and stuff.
[0:33:28 - 0:33:45] ▶
Yeah. But, but that, that all of the people in this original seance with these blue blooded elites are also entangled with the JFK assassination, which is so crazy.
[0:33:45 - 0:33:55] ▶
To make a long story short, there's a seance that's held in, uh, late 52, early 53. I think it was the New Year's Eve of 52 to 53. And there are nine people involved in the seance. Now, these are not just some casual nine people you pick up, like, you know, your neighbors or something, right? This was a DuPont and an Astor and a Forbes. I mean, everybody that represents the, the blue blooded Brahmins of American society, old money people, were at a seance, a free
[0:33:55 - 0:34:25] ▶
freaking seance, right? In the woods, in Maine on New Year's Eve with Andrea Paharic. And one of them, uh, is the guy who was the inventor of the bell helicopter. Right. So.
[0:34:25 - 0:34:38] ▶
Is that Arthur Young? Arthur Young. So Arthur Young is there with his wife. His wife is Ruth Forbes Payne Young. Right. She had a lot of names. She was excessively nomenclatured. And so you have, you know, Ruth Forbes Payne Young. She's a Forbes.
[0:34:38 - 0:34:52] ▶
Mm-hmm. She was married to a George, uh, Payne, Lyman Payne, and also married to Arthur Young.
[0:34:52 - 0:34:58] ▶
So in that seance with the, you know, these kind of blue blooded elites that prove her itches convening,
[0:34:58 - 0:35:03] ▶
I think one of the people who's close with Mary Bancroft, who's Dulles' mistress,
[0:35:04 - 0:35:08] ▶
is a woman named Ruth Forbes Payne. Yeah, Ruth Forbes Payne.
[0:35:08 - 0:35:12] ▶
And so she's a Forbes first. So again, going to the blue blooded elite thing.
[0:35:12 - 0:35:16] ▶
Yeah. But I think her daughter is Ruth Payne, who takes in Lee Harvey Oswald.
[0:35:16 - 0:35:22] ▶
And Lee Harvey Oswald is living with Ruth Payne. And I think gets a job at the Texas Book Depository
[0:35:23 - 0:35:30] ▶
in Texas, in Dallas, through Ruth Payne.
[0:35:30 - 0:35:34] ▶
And then ends up, you know, maybe not being the lone gunman, but, you know, attempting JFK's life.
[0:35:34 - 0:35:42] ▶
And in her home, she opens her door to some refugees, you know, people who are recent immigrants
[0:35:42 - 0:35:47] ▶
from Russia. Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina.
[0:35:47 - 0:35:51] ▶
So they're living with Ruth Payne in this house in Texas.
[0:35:53 - 0:35:57] ▶
She gets him the job at the Texas School Book Depository.
[0:35:57 - 0:36:01] ▶
And so it's these weird entanglements where, and the nine believed themselves to be sort of agents,
[0:36:02 - 0:36:09] ▶
or sorry, the group in the seance believed themselves to be agents of these extraterrestrials,
[0:36:09 - 0:36:14] ▶
right? Like to be acting on their behalf.
[0:36:14 - 0:36:16] ▶
And so like, and I know Pooverich would stop at airports and meditate because he thought he would
[0:36:16 - 0:36:21] ▶
be bringing about world peace and that the nine would speak to him through his watch and stuff.
[0:36:21 - 0:36:26] ▶
And so I wonder sometimes, was it all good or was it bad? I mean, I don't think, you know,
[0:36:26 - 0:36:31] ▶
the assassination of JFK was good. He seemed like a great man who was resisting really dark forces.
[0:36:31 - 0:36:37] ▶
So it's a strange story.
[0:36:38 - 0:36:41] ▶
Well, I just want to hear something really strange about that.
[0:36:41 - 0:36:43] ▶
Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia Experiment.
[0:36:44 - 0:36:53] ▶
And it kind of worked.
[0:36:54 - 0:36:55] ▶
It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls.
[0:36:56 - 0:37:01] ▶
Others just vanished.
[0:37:01 - 0:37:03] ▶
No one was where they were supposed to be.
[0:37:04 - 0:37:05] ▶
Talk about a breakdown in communication.
[0:37:06 - 0:37:08] ▶
And you know who was leading the whole project?
[0:37:08 - 0:37:10] ▶
My favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor Thomas Townsend Brown, who literally had a
[0:37:10 - 0:37:16] ▶
nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor communication among the team members.
[0:37:16 - 0:37:21] ▶
You know what that sounds like?
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[0:38:30 - 0:38:31] ▶
I want to hear something really strange about that.
[0:38:32 - 0:38:35] ▶
That's why you're here.
[0:38:36 - 0:38:37] ▶
This, yeah, this woman who I got to know very well, who's in the film, she was Puharic's
[0:38:37 - 0:38:43] ▶
assistant for many years.
[0:38:43 - 0:38:46] ▶
And starting in, I think, 63, basically she worked with him, I think until like the mid-80s.
[0:38:46 - 0:38:54] ▶
But she met him in New York.
[0:38:59 - 0:39:00] ▶
She was a student at NYU.
[0:39:00 - 0:39:02] ▶
And Puharic was working.
[0:39:02 - 0:39:04] ▶
This is a whole other thing to get into.
[0:39:05 - 0:39:06] ▶
But he had started his company there called Intellectron Corporation.
[0:39:06 - 0:39:10] ▶
But she started as sort of an intern at this company, Intellectron, which was basically a biomedical
[0:39:10 - 0:39:17] ▶
We can get into that.
[0:39:19 - 0:39:20] ▶
But basically, she told me a story that she was working at Intellectron the day JFK was
[0:39:20 - 0:39:28] ▶
assassinated and that these men in suits, she says, came into the offices, went into Puharic's
[0:39:28 - 0:39:36] ▶
office, said something to him that seemed very serious.
[0:39:36 - 0:39:40] ▶
And she said the whole rest of the day Puharic was out of sorts.
[0:39:41 - 0:39:44] ▶
This could be as simple as, you know, how horrible that the president was shot or it could have
[0:39:46 - 0:39:52] ▶
been something else.
[0:39:52 - 0:39:53] ▶
But she was very specific to say, I remember this happening.
[0:39:53 - 0:39:57] ▶
It was very strange.
[0:39:57 - 0:39:58] ▶
But to finish the nine thing, basically, the roundtable ends in 57, I think, right?
[0:39:59 - 0:40:06] ▶
Meaning, for whatever reason, I mean, I think I know the reason.
[0:40:06 - 0:40:10] ▶
Basically, he moved on to Intellectron, which I can talk about.
[0:40:10 - 0:40:15] ▶
But he claims that we ran out of funding, the benefactors lost interest, and it shut down.
[0:40:15 - 0:40:21] ▶
But all the while, he was getting money from the army.
[0:40:22 - 0:40:24] ▶
I mean, there's records of that.
[0:40:24 - 0:40:26] ▶
But so the nine stopped, allegedly.
[0:40:26 - 0:40:31] ▶
And I think Lavenda, I think, talks about this.
[0:40:32 - 0:40:34] ▶
But a lot of the early nine-related conspiracies start around that time, too, with this idea
[0:40:34 - 0:40:42] ▶
that it was a psyop or that it was this early psychological warfare experiment where can we get,
[0:40:42 - 0:40:52] ▶
you know, certain groups of people to believe in something and to what extent?
[0:40:52 - 0:40:56] ▶
And a lot of people think that that was like the nine.
[0:40:56 - 0:40:59] ▶
They think that's all it was.
[0:41:00 - 0:41:01] ▶
They think any sort of like real channeling or anything is just, you know, is fake.
[0:41:01 - 0:41:06] ▶
And that it was all set up as this sort of psychological warfare experiment, which, you know, there's reasons to think that that could be true.
[0:41:06 - 0:41:16] ▶
But that's where a lot of that, you know, starts.
[0:41:16 - 0:41:19] ▶
You know, I think that's possible.
[0:41:20 - 0:41:22] ▶
But you think about like when did MKUltra start?
[0:41:23 - 0:41:26] ▶
It was probably there's probably stuff going on before 52.
[0:41:26 - 0:41:29] ▶
But really, the Korean War is like when, you know, conventionally it's dated to.
[0:41:30 - 0:41:34] ▶
And the idea that they were that sophisticated at the very start of MKUltra where they could convince these sort of elite members of society that they were in touch with these specific extraterrestrial beings.
[0:41:35 - 0:41:46] ▶
And that those extraterrestrial beings were constructing Faraday chambers that were able to like make the messages they received more effective.
[0:41:46 - 0:41:56] ▶
Like this elaborate sort of magic trick that seems a little beyond the pale to me.
[0:41:56 - 0:42:01] ▶
I mean, even I'll admit it.
[0:42:04 - 0:42:06] ▶
The years and years I research.
[0:42:06 - 0:42:08] ▶
I mean, even I don't know.
[0:42:09 - 0:42:10] ▶
Like a lot of people I talk to who are interested in this stuff and know about the film and so forth.
[0:42:10 - 0:42:15] ▶
Like they think that I know all the answers and I, I, I even, I wish I did.
[0:42:15 - 0:42:21] ▶
And it's not like I'm hiding something because I'm worried that, you know, I'm going to be a monitor.
[0:42:22 - 0:42:26] ▶
I just don't, you know, I know what was in the archives.
[0:42:27 - 0:42:29] ▶
And a lot of the film for me was like, okay, what, what do we know?
[0:42:29 - 0:42:35] ▶
And let's like work off that.
[0:42:36 - 0:42:37] ▶
And so it was really just like, okay, here's the transcripts.
[0:42:37 - 0:42:40] ▶
Here's what they were saying.
[0:42:40 - 0:42:41] ▶
Speaking of what are the facts?
[0:42:41 - 0:42:43] ▶
We have to get back to this intellectron thing.
[0:42:43 - 0:42:46] ▶
Like, so yours is the implication of this story that this company had something to do with the assassination of JFK or like, were these men in tweed suits raiding the office, the CIA?
[0:42:46 - 0:42:57] ▶
And were they, they thinking that intellectron had something to do with this or?
[0:42:57 - 0:43:03] ▶
So, so, so Puharich, yeah, he leaves the round table, he moves to New York city or he moves to Ossining.
[0:43:03 - 0:43:13] ▶
A lot of people know this in relation to Puharich cause he lived there most of his life.
[0:43:13 - 0:43:17] ▶
It's, you know, an hour on the train North of the city, you know, mad men, of course, the show, like I didn't even realize all the characters, they all live in Ossining.
[0:43:18 - 0:43:26] ▶
Like Don, I guess there's, I remember watching it, but there's some reference, like they live in Ossining.
[0:43:26 - 0:43:32] ▶
So it's a very, you know, wealthy area.
[0:43:32 - 0:43:35] ▶
And all of a sudden Puharich has what's considered like a mansion there, basically huge house.
[0:43:35 - 0:43:41] ▶
He tells his family that basically he just got this contract to study basically more of what was going on at the round table foundation.
[0:43:43 - 0:43:51] ▶
But there were specific people who needed him to move to New York.
[0:43:51 - 0:43:54] ▶
So they moved there.
[0:43:54 - 0:43:56] ▶
I mean, his family life is a whole different thing.
[0:43:56 - 0:43:58] ▶
He had, his wife sadly committed suicide around this time.
[0:43:58 - 0:44:04] ▶
He was very like, you know, distraught about that.
[0:44:05 - 0:44:08] ▶
I received a grim call from Jenny's father.
[0:44:09 - 0:44:12] ▶
Jenny had quietly leapt from the hospital roof into eternity.
[0:44:14 - 0:44:19] ▶
I wept for my failure to keep her healthy and happy.
[0:44:25 - 0:44:29] ▶
I wept for our three daughters who would never know a normal upbringing.
[0:44:30 - 0:44:35] ▶
I cried out to God in crushing despair.
[0:44:37 - 0:44:40] ▶
But so they moved to New York.
[0:44:41 - 0:44:43] ▶
He starts this company called Intellectron.
[0:44:43 - 0:44:46] ▶
He gets a Annie Jacobson helped figure this out.
[0:44:46 - 0:44:53] ▶
He gets a grant for $300,000, which at the time would have been like at least a million dollars or more from the Atomic Energy Commission, which is strange.
[0:44:53 - 0:45:07] ▶
And we have all the documents that we found that prove that they went and visited him.
[0:45:08 - 0:45:12] ▶
They gave him this grant.
[0:45:13 - 0:45:14] ▶
And so he starts this thing, Intellectron, which is basically labeled as a biomedical research company.
[0:45:14 - 0:45:21] ▶
So they have an office in Hell's Kitchen.
[0:45:21 - 0:45:23] ▶
And again, with Puharic, I just it's it's I have to stress like there is always these instances in his life.
[0:45:23 - 0:45:33] ▶
This one being the really the first, but it was sort of the roundtable to where like all of a sudden he just has this company and this and the and these employees and this fund, you know, all of a sudden it's just, you know, kind of expensive to have a big office in New York City.
[0:45:33 - 0:45:49] ▶
And all this stuff and all this state of the art at the time, electronic equipment.
[0:45:49 - 0:45:53] ▶
And it sounds like in classic intelligence world front sort of stuff.
[0:45:53 - 0:45:57] ▶
Well, I'll get to that.
[0:45:57 - 0:45:58] ▶
I'll get to have a huge hedge fund.
[0:45:58 - 0:46:00] ▶
He just always had and it's always this company.
[0:46:00 - 0:46:03] ▶
And basically in this was early sixties now, 62, 63.
[0:46:03 - 0:46:07] ▶
This is when he starts the hearing experiments where basically he claims that deaf people would come into the office and they would do research on them.
[0:46:07 - 0:46:24] ▶
And basically they designed a device which would enable deaf people to to to hear basically by emitting a certain frequency that would somehow bypass like the normal way we hear and go directly to the hearing center in the brain.
[0:46:24 - 0:46:41] ▶
And it was this breakthrough medical discovery, which, you know, go figure goes completely quiet.
[0:46:41 - 0:46:50] ▶
No one, no one ever hears about it.
[0:46:50 - 0:46:52] ▶
But that's when he first starts this whole, you know, radio frequency stuff, voices in the head kind of stuff, which again was under this, you know, we're researching on deaf people.
[0:46:53 - 0:47:05] ▶
We're doing this, you know, in a medical sense.
[0:47:05 - 0:47:08] ▶
We're helping people.
[0:47:08 - 0:47:09] ▶
But that's when these, you know, men in suits show up.
[0:47:09 - 0:47:14] ▶
That's when once again, he's getting contracts from Navy, CIA.
[0:47:15 - 0:47:21] ▶
Again, almost everyone that was involved at the round table was back in this intellectron situation with him.
[0:47:22 - 0:47:28] ▶
And so that I think the connection, I mean, I don't want to just jump to conclusions, but I think what I've often thought with this JFK thing and why to Melanie his assistant seemed like such a big deal is that it may have had some tie in with a mind control, sort of like a Sirhan Sirhan situation with Lee Harvey Oz.
[0:47:28 - 0:47:54] ▶
I mean, I know that's like a pretty crazy, bold claim, but that's just what I've thought.
[0:47:54 - 0:47:58] ▶
Because they were doing that.
[0:47:59 - 0:48:01] ▶
This is, we're talking, and again, this is something I don't think a lot of people know.
[0:48:02 - 0:48:05] ▶
And I think people don't realize a lot of that MKUltra stuff happened much earlier, but they were doing this work in 62, 63 of like send, basically sending messages to, to people's heads, you know, and, and we have footage.
[0:48:06 - 0:48:24] ▶
We have, I mean, it's, it's real.
[0:48:24 - 0:48:26] ▶
The people from the Atomic Energy Commission write very clearly in letters we found, like we went, Annie Jacobson talks about it, I think in her book, like one of the guys is like, I don't believe you, you know, test me and just, and, and, and did the test on himself and it worked.
[0:48:26 - 0:48:41] ▶
And then it goes, it goes dark and Intellectron closes and all of a sudden it's onto the next sort of, you know, mysterious company.
[0:48:41 - 0:48:53] ▶
Deep Black program or yeah.
[0:48:53 - 0:48:55] ▶
Some other front company.
[0:48:55 - 0:48:56] ▶
That's really, really trippy.
[0:48:57 - 0:48:59] ▶
Is there any explicit connection between Lee Harvey Oswald and Intellectron or that sort of speculation on your part?
[0:48:59 - 0:49:06] ▶
I haven't looked, but I just think, you know, if you want to go there, it's like, like Lavenda says the whole connection there at the round table.
[0:49:06 - 0:49:13] ▶
And then this weird incident where they seem to make a big deal about telling him about the assassination at that exact time, that exact year, they're researching ways to, to be able to send messages to someone's mind to do something specific, Manchurian candidate, et cetera, et cetera.
[0:49:13 - 0:49:30] ▶
Apparently Dulles did not want the fact that Ruth Payne had actually been at the summer house or whatever.
[0:49:30 - 0:49:38] ▶
I think that summer, right before JFK was assassinated, he, she did not want, you know, that at all on record.
[0:49:38 - 0:49:44] ▶
I think Mary Bancroft like started to talk about it and he like, you know, he kind of acted like he didn't know what was going on when like, you know, he w he would have reacted earnestly if, if, if, if he hadn't, he clearly did know what was going on.
[0:49:44 - 0:49:56] ▶
And obviously Dulles was probably, you know, among a very short list of people.
[0:49:56 - 0:50:01] ▶
If you, you know, if you, the intersection of capabilities, motivation to, to take out JFK, Dulles has to be on anybody's short list.
[0:50:01 - 0:50:09] ▶
And then to further kind of steel man, there may be being a, a there, there, we know that Jack Ruby was an MK, ultra patient.
[0:50:09 - 0:50:18] ▶
I mean, like 95%, you know, like you have letters between Jolly West and Sydney Gottlieb, who's definitely the kind of archivist.
[0:50:18 - 0:50:26] ▶
architect of MK ultra, you know, and, and Jolly West was, you know, UCLA psychiatry, but clearly very involved in operation midnight climax and maybe brainwashed Charles Manson.
[0:50:26 - 0:50:38] ▶
And he sees Jack Ruby who never remembers killing Lee Harvey Oswald in his jail cell alone.
[0:50:38 - 0:50:44] ▶
No cameras comes back, comes out and says, uh, Jack Ruby has had a psych psychiatric break.
[0:50:44 - 0:50:50] ▶
And then Jack Ruby, you know, who was fully lucid, but just didn't remember having shot Lee Harvey Oswald talks about Jews dying outside of his cell and just like literally cracks.
[0:50:50 - 0:51:00] ▶
Um, so very, very strange, you know, possible connections.
[0:51:01 - 0:51:06] ▶
Well, the other really strange thing at this time, um, was that Pujaric was working with someone named Jose Delgado, who he probably might know who that is.
[0:51:06 - 0:51:18] ▶
Delgado, an old friend of ours, brilliant researcher from Spain, implanted radio receivers in the heads of bulls.
[0:51:18 - 0:51:27] ▶
Delgado has remote control of the animal.
[0:51:27 - 0:51:29] ▶
Do you realize the fantastic possibilities if from the outside we could modify the inside?
[0:51:29 - 0:51:37] ▶
Could we give messages to the inside?
[0:51:37 - 0:51:40] ▶
He was a guy from Spain.
[0:51:40 - 0:51:42] ▶
He was a researcher.
[0:51:42 - 0:51:43] ▶
Uh, he was involved with a lot of this sort of mind stuff in the sixties, late fifties sixties.
[0:51:43 - 0:51:50] ▶
But I think he's mostly known as somebody who, uh, did experiments with implanting, putting an implant in the head of a bull and basically being able to remote control a bull and basically say, go this stop, go left, go right.
[0:51:50 - 0:52:06] ▶
And he was able to do it.
[0:52:06 - 0:52:08] ▶
There's literally footage of, of the experiment happening.
[0:52:08 - 0:52:11] ▶
Uh, and Pujaric, we later found out was, was close friends as Pujaric says himself with Delgado.
[0:52:11 - 0:52:20] ▶
We found letters between the two of them, uh, during this time.
[0:52:20 - 0:52:24] ▶
And it was nothing too sinister as mostly like, Hey, I'm going to go to this conference.
[0:52:24 - 0:52:29] ▶
Are you going to be there?
[0:52:29 - 0:52:30] ▶
But they clearly were close.
[0:52:30 - 0:52:33] ▶
I mean, there's some people I met during the process of this who were like, don't, don't even go there and don't talk about the connection you had with Delgado.
[0:52:33 - 0:52:42] ▶
But, you know, I, I was interested to know.
[0:52:42 - 0:52:46] ▶
You have a guy who's being able to pacify a bull and play the bull like a video game.
[0:52:47 - 0:52:53] ▶
And that clearly was the heir to MK ultra, which was mostly sodium pentothal LSD, that sort of thing is chemical based.
[0:52:53 - 0:53:00] ▶
And if, if, if, if in the early sixties, we had chips that could control animals and you had heirs to MK ultra, like MK often.
[0:53:02 - 0:53:10] ▶
Which were done. I believe at the science and engineering Institute, um, in the Northeast as well.
[0:53:11 - 0:53:15] ▶
It's like, of course, you know, we're going to be way more advanced on that stuff.
[0:53:16 - 0:53:21] ▶
Now it's, it's creepy to think about.
[0:53:21 - 0:53:23] ▶
It's one of those things you don't even want to think about it.
[0:53:23 - 0:53:25] ▶
Cause the second you do think about it, you get into reality being far weirder than we could ever imagine.
[0:53:25 - 0:53:32] ▶
So, yeah, if you think, okay, they're putting an implant in the head of a bull, like you say, basically remote controlling the thing.
[0:53:32 - 0:53:39] ▶
Why wouldn't you try to do that to a human being?
[0:53:39 - 0:53:43] ▶
I mean, why, why wouldn't you?
[0:53:43 - 0:53:45] ▶
And I think that was going on at Intellectron.
[0:53:45 - 0:53:50] ▶
I mean, I, I'm, I'm sure of it because there's this way too many, there's way too many connections.
[0:53:50 - 0:53:56] ▶
I don't have a document that says here's the experiment we did, but, um, that whole decade of the sixties was such a, a, a, a odd decade for Buharachi was so like quiet.
[0:53:56 - 0:54:09] ▶
Like all there's all these records of the round table, you know, tapes, photos, everything.
[0:54:09 - 0:54:15] ▶
And all of a sudden you get to the sixties.
[0:54:15 - 0:54:16] ▶
It's like nothing, really, very little documentation, very little, you know, photographic evidence of what he was up to.
[0:54:16 - 0:54:23] ▶
And all of a sudden the seventies boom picks back up.
[0:54:23 - 0:54:25] ▶
There's a hundred photo.
[0:54:25 - 0:54:26] ▶
So it's very mysterious decade.
[0:54:26 - 0:54:28] ▶
And it was just, it just so happened to be when he had this company in Electron.
[0:54:28 - 0:54:33] ▶
With these very odd connections, Delgado.
[0:54:34 - 0:54:37] ▶
I think it's becoming super clear that.
[0:54:37 - 0:54:40] ▶
And the other thing too, not to cut you off is I I've, with all this stuff in this film, I've gone to like the ends of the earth to try to track down.
[0:54:40 - 0:54:49] ▶
And nothing, absolutely nothing.
[0:54:49 - 0:54:52] ▶
This place never existed in Electron.
[0:54:52 - 0:54:54] ▶
You would not find the only thing I ever found was there was a guy, a pretty interesting guy actually.
[0:54:54 - 0:54:59] ▶
His name is Beardsley Graham.
[0:54:59 - 0:55:00] ▶
He was, uh, involved, uh, in NASA in the sixties, early seventies colleague of Buharach's, but he was like, I guess.
[0:55:00 - 0:55:08] ▶
Like he was somehow involved in Intellectron as like an outside consultant or something.
[0:55:08 - 0:55:15] ▶
And in his archives at, uh, Berkeley, there was like a couple documents that had, you know, in Electron letterhead and it was like correspondence.
[0:55:15 - 0:55:25] ▶
And that was like the only thing I could find.
[0:55:25 - 0:55:28] ▶
And even in that it was nothing revealing.
[0:55:28 - 0:55:30] ▶
It was again, it was just like records and sort of like, you know, financial records.
[0:55:30 - 0:55:36] ▶
So, which, which again, didn't point to anything.
[0:55:36 - 0:55:38] ▶
You know, so, so there's just, this place did not exist.
[0:55:39 - 0:55:42] ▶
But it very much did.
[0:55:42 - 0:55:44] ▶
Well, it's, I mean, now I feel like it's one of these things that's slowly shifting, you know, and I think more and more people are going to start to recognize the fact that MK ultra had a role, not only in the JFK assassination, but in the RFK assassination, you mentioned Sirhan Sirhan.
[0:55:46 - 0:56:02] ▶
Who had written in his diary right before he shot RFK.
[0:56:02 - 0:56:08] ▶
Just like over and over.
[0:56:08 - 0:56:10] ▶
It was like some neuro linguistic programming was coming through him to this day.
[0:56:10 - 0:56:14] ▶
To this day does not remember having shot him.
[0:56:14 - 0:56:17] ▶
He's like, you know, I must kill him, must kill, you know, sort of thing.
[0:56:17 - 0:56:20] ▶
Um, and you have RFK junior now is head of the FDA.
[0:56:20 - 0:56:23] ▶
He himself has gone deep on his father's death.
[0:56:23 - 0:56:28] ▶
I think he was 14 at the time.
[0:56:28 - 0:56:30] ▶
And I think he recognizes that he was actually shot from the back and not from the front.
[0:56:30 - 0:56:36] ▶
So there was this other gunman again, just like JFK.
[0:56:36 - 0:56:39] ▶
I think he thinks that, you know, MK ultra was involved.
[0:56:39 - 0:56:43] ▶
You know, this guy, William Jennings Bryan, not to be confused with the 1890s.
[0:56:43 - 0:56:47] ▶
William Jennings Bryan, um, was this kind of mysterious, deep statey figure who I believe was tight with Sirhan Sirhan.
[0:56:47 - 0:56:55] ▶
And, um, so I, you know, I, I think these things are going to start to come out that, uh, MK ultra was far more pervasive than, than we ever realized.
[0:56:55 - 0:57:04] ▶
And there's even a book called, I don't know if you know about this book, the controllers by Martin Cannon.
[0:57:04 - 0:57:09] ▶
Yeah. Yeah. He mentions, uh, Buharich in that.
[0:57:09 - 0:57:12] ▶
So let's do this book is insane.
[0:57:12 - 0:57:14] ▶
What, what's the, what's the thesis of this book?
[0:57:14 - 0:57:16] ▶
Uh, as you know, a lot of the guests I sit down with, whether they're physicists, intelligence officers, people who've worked inside black programs are operating at a really impressive level mentally.
[0:57:16 - 0:57:30] ▶
Sometimes I feel like I'm a chimp talking to human beings.
[0:57:30 - 0:57:34] ▶
Often their work takes a toll and a lot of them track their health obsessively.
[0:57:34 - 0:57:39] ▶
Regular lab work, obscure biomarkers, often things that most people never look at.
[0:57:39 - 0:57:44] ▶
Meanwhile, last time I went to a primary care doctor, they ran maybe like eight biomarkers and they told me I was fine and sent me home.
[0:57:44 - 0:57:52] ▶
This massive difference between the ordinary broken and limited healthcare system and what elite people are doing to track their health.
[0:57:52 - 0:58:01] ▶
Got me interested in superpower.
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[0:59:12 - 0:59:16] ▶
What's the thesis of this book?
[0:59:18 - 0:59:20] ▶
It's basically about this idea of the fabrication of alien abductions, right?
[0:59:20 - 0:59:27] ▶
That's at least a big part of it.
[0:59:27 - 0:59:28] ▶
Some of them being chip implantations done basically for MKUltra purposes.
[0:59:28 - 0:59:34] ▶
And people being tricked into saying, oh, you like this is your guardian angel or whatever.
[0:59:35 - 0:59:40] ▶
And there's a whole thing.
[0:59:40 - 0:59:41] ▶
We can go, we can get to that later, but the whole in electron thing, basically to cap that off, it was, yeah.
[0:59:41 - 0:59:49] ▶
One of many of these very, to me, it became very obvious fronts.
[0:59:49 - 0:59:56] ▶
I mean, there's just no question about it, you know, that he had.
[0:59:56 - 1:00:02] ▶
And they were doing all that type of experimentation.
[1:00:02 - 1:00:04] ▶
Again, there's footage of them doing an experiment on a woman.
[1:00:04 - 1:00:10] ▶
There's no sound, but it's obvious what's happening.
[1:00:10 - 1:00:13] ▶
You can see, you know, she's in the other room.
[1:00:13 - 1:00:15] ▶
She's behind a wall there in the other room.
[1:00:15 - 1:00:18] ▶
He has his device that he invented in the early sixties called the TD 100, which I've told you about.
[1:00:18 - 1:00:24] ▶
And this basically enables like a certain frequency to be sent to somebody.
[1:00:24 - 1:00:29] ▶
And, you know, it's kind of like a situation where if you're exposed to this frequency, it's at a certain wavelength that only you can hear and anyone else around you can't hear.
[1:00:29 - 1:00:43] ▶
And this kind of ties into what he was doing later in the seventies, but they're doing an experiment on a woman using this.
[1:00:43 - 1:00:49] ▶
And it's very clear what's happening and it's very clear it's working.
[1:00:49 - 1:00:53] ▶
This was, this was like Neuralink basically.
[1:00:53 - 1:00:56] ▶
And you could, you could, you could send or implant thoughts to a person.
[1:00:56 - 1:01:01] ▶
And so how exactly did it work?
[1:01:03 - 1:01:04] ▶
You played a tone and then you would.
[1:01:04 - 1:01:06] ▶
Well, there's two things.
[1:01:06 - 1:01:07] ▶
One of the things he invented back then too, which again was Puharich says himself was classified.
[1:01:07 - 1:01:13] ▶
And you've probably heard of this as the tooth implant.
[1:01:13 - 1:01:17] ▶
A device could be inserted into one of your back molars that acted as a transducer that could send signals across the facial nerves into the hearing centers of the brain.
[1:01:17 - 1:01:31] ▶
It took about a month of daily therapy.
[1:01:31 - 1:01:34] ▶
They would have their hearing improved significantly.
[1:01:34 - 1:01:38] ▶
It was extraordinary because it was a totally new way of understanding how we hear.
[1:01:38 - 1:01:45] ▶
You could send signals to someone secretly.
[1:01:45 - 1:01:50] ▶
It had a lot of potential.
[1:01:50 - 1:01:53] ▶
We gave a demonstration at the Pentagon.
[1:01:53 - 1:01:58] ▶
We fitted this device to this general.
[1:01:58 - 1:02:01] ▶
And we had somebody out in the hall broadcasting.
[1:02:01 - 1:02:05] ▶
And he said, God damn it, I hear it.
[1:02:05 - 1:02:08] ▶
God damn it, I hear it.
[1:02:08 - 1:02:10] ▶
The bastards did it.
[1:02:10 - 1:02:12] ▶
It was basically a radio receiver that would be, I guess at one point it was Puharich kind of says it as though you could slip on some sort of thing.
[1:02:12 - 1:02:23] ▶
Like anyone could just kind of like slip this thing on their tooth.
[1:02:23 - 1:02:26] ▶
But in other instances, it was very specific about it being like a real like cat.
[1:02:26 - 1:02:31] ▶
What do you call it?
[1:02:31 - 1:02:32] ▶
A molar or something that would really be put on your tooth.
[1:02:32 - 1:02:35] ▶
And that would basically be able to receive a radio signal.
[1:02:35 - 1:02:41] ▶
It would pick it up here and it would send it through the nerves of the face that would basically connect to whatever area in your brain you register, you know, sounds.
[1:02:41 - 1:02:51] ▶
And so you could be again in, you could clearly see them doing this.
[1:02:51 - 1:02:57] ▶
And this was very short, a short distance.
[1:02:57 - 1:03:00] ▶
Like I said, a woman right across the room.
[1:03:00 - 1:03:02] ▶
And you can clearly see they're able to do it.
[1:03:02 - 1:03:05] ▶
So you can imagine if the research continued, at what length can this go?
[1:03:05 - 1:03:10] ▶
Can this be in another town?
[1:03:10 - 1:03:12] ▶
Can it be in another state?
[1:03:12 - 1:03:13] ▶
Could it be in another country?
[1:03:13 - 1:03:15] ▶
So that's what they were experimenting with.
[1:03:15 - 1:03:18] ▶
But so the first part of it was the tooth where you could send the message to the tooth implant, hear it in the head.
[1:03:18 - 1:03:24] ▶
And the second part was an offshoot of that where basically, from what I understand, you sort of just bypass the whole tooth thing.
[1:03:24 - 1:03:33] ▶
And it's a very specific radio frequency that I guess you can't tune into like on a normal frequency band or a radio.
[1:03:33 - 1:03:44] ▶
Do you know what frequency?
[1:03:44 - 1:03:45] ▶
No, he doesn't talk about it.
[1:03:45 - 1:03:47] ▶
That would seem to be extremely classified would be my guess.
[1:03:47 - 1:03:50] ▶
It has a lot to do with sine waves.
[1:03:50 - 1:03:52] ▶
I must say again, like I'm, this is not my forte.
[1:03:53 - 1:03:57] ▶
A lot of this I stumbled into.
[1:03:58 - 1:03:59] ▶
But it was this idea that again, you would bypass the tooth and the, and the, and the frequency would essentially just be sent directly to the head and be picked up in that same area that the tooth was essentially connecting to.
[1:04:00 - 1:04:13] ▶
Just to also substantiate what you're saying to the audience who might think we're crazy.
[1:04:14 - 1:04:18] ▶
I mean, bait as early as Beethoven, he was deaf and he used something called bone conduction.
[1:04:19 - 1:04:24] ▶
Where he would bite onto a conductive rod while he was playing piano that would bypass his ear canal and the vibrations would literally play in his brain.
[1:04:25 - 1:04:35] ▶
And so he would like de facto be able to hear his own playing without actually kind of, you know, hearing it through his ear canal.
[1:04:35 - 1:04:42] ▶
There's a story of, there's a kind of apocryphal, but I think substantiated story, um, around Lucille Ball who had just.
[1:04:45 - 1:04:51] ▶
I've heard about this.
[1:04:51 - 1:04:52] ▶
It's in the telepathy tapes.
[1:04:54 - 1:04:55] ▶
And she had gotten a tooth filling or whatever, and she's driving and she starts to hear the radio in her head because she still has some metal in her teeth.
[1:04:56 - 1:05:02] ▶
I think there's a story with Puharich where some guy works at a metal mill or something.
[1:05:02 - 1:05:06] ▶
That was his first, um, aha moment is that they got a mental patient, a guy who claimed he was hearing voices, but his family's convinced he's, he's, you know, sane.
[1:05:07 - 1:05:18] ▶
And we're worried because they want to put him in a mental hospital and we don't want that to happen.
[1:05:18 - 1:05:23] ▶
So, you know, can you check him out?
[1:05:23 - 1:05:25] ▶
So they, they bring him in, they get to know him and he says, okay, I work at this metal factory where I guess it basically is a grinding metal pieces and this kind of thing.
[1:05:25 - 1:05:34] ▶
Annie Jacobson talks about it too in her book.
[1:05:34 - 1:05:36] ▶
Puharich's theory was that this metal dust had somehow collected on his teeth and in essence acted like a radio antenna.
[1:05:36 - 1:05:49] ▶
We found out he was tuned to station WOR in New York.
[1:05:49 - 1:05:54] ▶
And they put the mental patient in their Faraday cage, which blocks out all electronic signals.
[1:05:54 - 1:06:01] ▶
And the mental patient suddenly is no longer hearing voices, is like perfectly sane.
[1:06:01 - 1:06:10] ▶
And sure enough, soon as we locked the door, the sound ceased. Opened the door, the sound would come on.
[1:06:10 - 1:06:16] ▶
That's pretty remarkable of Puharich to think that all through and to test it in the laboratory.
[1:06:16 - 1:06:23] ▶
And that kicked off like all of this research where it said, okay, well, if that's possible, like what else is possible with that basic idea that that's, you know, real.
[1:06:23 - 1:06:35] ▶
Yeah. And if you can bypass the ear canal with vibration, whatever is processing the audio ultimately in the brain, we know that you can turn molecular mass into frequency.
[1:06:35 - 1:06:46] ▶
Everything has a quote unquote resonant frequency. This sounds woo woo, but what I just said is fact.
[1:06:46 - 1:06:51] ▶
Yeah. Could you then use some sort of electromagnetic, you know, radio wave or some wave that connects directly to the brain and that kind of gets in a freaky territory because you end up in sort of psychic warfare, you know, that's ubiquitous or whatever in widespread.
[1:06:51 - 1:07:11] ▶
Like, it's kind of weird to think about, but I mean, if you're saying that was possible back then, it's just wild. And then you mentioned sign waves. I just interviewed a guy named Dan Sherman.
[1:07:11 - 1:07:22] ▶
Yeah. And you texted me when you saw the interview because you said it, you felt like it kind of comported with a lot of the stuff you had been studying around.
[1:07:22 - 1:07:30] ▶
Yeah. Puharich. If Puharich is doing this stuff in the sixties, then it kind of makes me believe the Sherman stuff a whole lot more, which was happening.
[1:07:30 - 1:07:40] ▶
In the early nineties around messages he's downloading, but it, maybe it does beget the question, you know, is the Sherman stuff genuinely, you know, extraterrestrial or were people beaming messages that were extraterrestrial to test the veracity of the messaging or whatever through him. And I don't know, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think he was lying. And I think the program is real.
[1:07:40 - 1:08:06] ▶
The Genesis of it was in 1947. We came in contact with an alien species and in 1960, they started a, a project. It was called project preserve destiny. And, um, it was designed to genetically manage fetuses, human fetuses, so that they would have the heightened ability to do this particular thing that I was going to school for.
[1:08:06 - 1:08:32] ▶
And he said, I'm going to play a tone and I want you to mentally hum that tone. And he said that you will eventually feel a connection. The line will change.
[1:08:32 - 1:08:44] ▶
Mm. When I saw the sine wave move.
[1:08:44 - 1:08:47] ▶
And I went, oh, okay. Well, there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening. This is not, this is not possible.
[1:08:47 - 1:08:57] ▶
Yeah. Do you think that it was kind of a development from, um, you know, what you were looking into with Puhar?
[1:08:57 - 1:09:04] ▶
I'd have to imagine it was. And that's always the question, you know,
[1:09:04 - 1:09:08] ▶
You said there are a lot of sine waves. He literally says I had to flatten a sine wave.
[1:09:08 - 1:09:12] ▶
Yeah. When I saw the, the, the, uh, sine wave move, it, it is like, it came into focus. This thing that, that I was doing in my head.
[1:09:12 - 1:09:20] ▶
That's why I, that's why I reached out because again, like for me, a lot of this was, okay, I have all this information. I'm not a, you know, I'm not a, a physicist. I'm not a, most of this stuff, but I'd have to imagine it's connected because it, um, Puharic, the way this machine worked as well, had something to do with specific sine waves. Very, very specific.
[1:09:20 - 1:09:43] ▶
You know, he was always talking about sine waves. And so I just, I can't imagine that that wasn't some sort of early interpretation of, of what, what he was talking about.
[1:09:43 - 1:09:55] ▶
And you have this machine that you like, where you like, you're matching tones and stuff. I mean, that sounds exactly like Sherman.
[1:09:55 - 1:10:01] ▶
Yeah. It's all tone. It's all tones. And then the thing with the machine is again, um, and like you said, sounding crazy, like for a long time making this film, you know, like I had to,
[1:10:01 - 1:10:13] ▶
really grapple with like that a lot because I knew what I was hearing and, and sort of not so much researching is a lot of stuff we got were like tapes of these experiments.
[1:10:13 - 1:10:25] ▶
So it's not just like, I'm reading a report, you're hearing it. So I'm hearing, you know, these channeling sessions, I'm hearing these experiments.
[1:10:25 - 1:10:34] ▶
He's doing an electron and, you know, you can just tell something's going on, something strange. And so you're right.
[1:10:34 - 1:10:40] ▶
You're right. I mean, I think like if that was happening in 60, 61, 62, I mean, I don't know. And this gets transitions into the Uri Geller stuff, which I believe is very much involved in that same sort of research.
[1:10:40 - 1:10:56] ▶
Well, I think, um, it's my belief that, uh, Geller was, was sort of like a, um, uh, mind control guinea pig in a way.
[1:11:00 - 1:11:11] ▶
Mm. Uh, there's a lot of context that would, that would prove that that was what his sort of role was in this whole.
[1:11:11 - 1:11:20] ▶
Explain that story. That's fascinating. Well, he, um, so basically Puharich, uh, in the six years, we had Intellectron.
[1:11:20 - 1:11:30] ▶
And the thing is too, with this device, he invented the TD 100, it was called, which was called transdermal 100.
[1:11:30 - 1:11:36] ▶
But, um, again, this was supposed to be this breakthrough, you know, medical device where, where people who are deaf can, can hear, you know, the, the, think about what we could do with this.
[1:11:37 - 1:11:50] ▶
But it just goes like, again, he never talks about it. No, no one in his family. Oh yeah. I wonder whatever happened to that. Like you would think that with such an amazing discovery, like something would have come of it.
[1:11:50 - 1:12:01] ▶
Or it was just like, went, went dark, basically probably around 68. Um, he never talks about it again, only way later in his life. He never, ever talks about it.
[1:12:01 - 1:12:11] ▶
Of course we learned he was using it with the space kids years later that nobody knew about that, but, um, so he's the, he's coming off the tail end of all the in Electron stuff. Right. Right. When he meets Geller, like literally it was 1970 is when he first hears about Geller goes to Israel.
[1:12:11 - 1:12:29] ▶
And Intellectron is still happening then. I mean, from what I understand, like it was still very much, you know, an operating company. So he's going to Israel to meet Uri Geller while he's still very much involved in the research of essentially sending messages to people.
[1:12:29 - 1:12:48] ▶
And he gets to Israel. He discovers Uri Geller. I mean, I think a lot of people know this story, but you know, Geller was, was allegedly this very, uh, amazing psychic guy who could bend, bend spoons with his mind and read people's minds and do all sorts of things like that. He could like, uh, hover his hand over a watch and the, and it would, uh, the hands would move and, and all these kinds of things. And so.
[1:12:48 - 1:13:14] ▶
Do you believe he could actually do those things or do you think that was stage magic or.
[1:13:14 - 1:13:18] ▶
Um, all I can say about that is.
[1:13:18 - 1:13:22] ▶
He did bend a spoon for us when we did the interview and I don't know how he did it.
[1:13:23 - 1:13:28] ▶
So that's all I can say. It could have been a trick.
[1:13:29 - 1:13:31] ▶
Uh, but I can't to this day figure out how he did it.
[1:13:32 - 1:13:34] ▶
You know, the easy debunks on things like that.
[1:13:34 - 1:13:37] ▶
So all I can say is like, yeah, it could have been a trick.
[1:13:38 - 1:13:41] ▶
But it was definitely kind of strange.
[1:13:42 - 1:13:44] ▶
And he did do it, but, um, he, so Buharic, you know, again, the story goes, Buharic was kind of smitten with, with Geller and oh my God, this guy's, you know, an amazing psychic.
[1:13:44 - 1:13:54] ▶
I'm in, I'm interested in psychic phenomena.
[1:13:54 - 1:13:57] ▶
I want to study him.
[1:13:57 - 1:13:58] ▶
So he brings him back.
[1:13:58 - 1:14:00] ▶
But what people don't really know, uh, unless they read Buharic's book on, on Uri Geller, which is kind of like a rare book to, to come across.
[1:14:00 - 1:14:08] ▶
But he, uh, he, uh, has this whole episode in Israel before he even brings him back to the United States, where he basically hypnotizes Geller and, you know, the nine come through.
[1:14:08 - 1:14:20] ▶
And all of a sudden, after however many years, you know, 53 from when Dr. Vinod did it to, to 71.
[1:14:21 - 1:14:29] ▶
And guess what happens?
[1:14:29 - 1:14:31] ▶
Uh, he starts channeling the nine, Uri Geller.
[1:14:31 - 1:14:34] ▶
And so Buharic is, you know, shot up, apparently shocked.
[1:14:34 - 1:14:41] ▶
And, you know, I can't believe this is happening.
[1:14:41 - 1:14:43] ▶
You know, there's all these tape recordings we have of, of this, uh, going down and that kind of kickstarts again.
[1:14:43 - 1:14:50] ▶
The whole nine thing comes back into the picture through, through Uri Geller.
[1:14:50 - 1:14:54] ▶
And all of a sudden they're like back, you know, and he's channeling them, channeling them and he's communicating with them.
[1:14:55 - 1:15:03] ▶
But it's very strange because Buharic, as I just said, was still very much involved in the Intellectron company, which, as we know, was experimenting with being able to send voices, send thoughts, uh, to people.
[1:15:03 - 1:15:19] ▶
And so one could assume that Uri Geller was a, you know, experiment in that way when the nine just so happened to reappear all those years later.
[1:15:20 - 1:15:31] ▶
And it's also strange because I think a lot of people know, like Geller has claimed his involvement with Mossad and his Israeli intelligence and all these things.
[1:15:31 - 1:15:41] ▶
There's reason to believe Buharic may have been a double agent for Israel.
[1:15:41 - 1:15:45] ▶
In fact, he says, he, he says it.
[1:15:45 - 1:15:48] ▶
He says, it's a joke, but he kind of says in a jokey way.
[1:15:53 - 1:15:54] ▶
And so I had always just stuck to me like, okay, is this a joke?
[1:15:54 - 1:15:55] ▶
Have you found any connections between him?
[1:15:56 - 1:15:57] ▶
What, what were the connections besides you're a yeller, obviously?
[1:15:59 - 1:16:02] ▶
um well he so we did tons of like foia uh requests trying to trying to find stuff on him
[1:16:02 - 1:16:11] ▶
and like basically got nothing but the only thing we were able to get was this big chunk of fbi
[1:16:11 - 1:16:16] ▶
documents which was basically monitoring all of his movements in israel literally page after page
[1:16:16 - 1:16:22] ▶
uh he just got here he's leaving he picked this bag up he did you know in the exact years he's um
[1:16:22 - 1:16:29] ▶
he's going there to see geller so that that there's that and then um multiple people who knew him
[1:16:29 - 1:16:37] ▶
who never really said anything until much later in their lives um told me that he he was mossad
[1:16:37 - 1:16:46] ▶
again i there's i don't have a document or something that that that proves this um and then puhart also
[1:16:46 - 1:16:54] ▶
mentions in a uh letter he was writing to uh there's a good friend of his this woman who
[1:16:54 - 1:17:02] ▶
kind of helped him with bookkeeping and stuff and she was like his closest confidant and he would
[1:17:02 - 1:17:08] ▶
write these letters to her all the time it's very clear that they were close you know he spoke with
[1:17:08 - 1:17:12] ▶
her very differently than other people but he um basically admitted to being part of a israeli
[1:17:12 - 1:17:20] ▶
u.s um mind can you know mind control program that was happening at aberdeen proving grounds
[1:17:20 - 1:17:29] ▶
which isn't you know is an is an army base and i read that and you know again what what do you make
[1:17:29 - 1:17:39] ▶
of it it's either true or for some reason he's making it up i don't know why it's fascinating so so
[1:17:39 - 1:17:45] ▶
he wrote that and then in this tape um he he kind of jokingly says oh i'm a i'm a i'm a double agent
[1:17:45 - 1:17:52] ▶
uh for for the israelis and and he also was always there you know that's the other thing like yes he
[1:17:52 - 1:17:59] ▶
went to to to investigate geller but you know he was even through the 80s like well after him and
[1:17:59 - 1:18:06] ▶
geller kind of parted ways he's always going there um on a lot of the channeling tapes that are happening
[1:18:06 - 1:18:13] ▶
in the 70s with the space kids he's he's referring by name to israeli generals this one guy uh aharon
[1:18:13 - 1:18:21] ▶
yariv who was i think the head of army intelligence very you can look him up i mean he was constantly
[1:18:21 - 1:18:28] ▶
re can should we uh give this information to yariv always referring to him and other people
[1:18:28 - 1:18:35] ▶
um high up there so a lot of red flags nothing again no concrete you know document or something
[1:18:35 - 1:18:45] ▶
but uh it's strange and i i don't know i mean again that's something like after all this time
[1:18:45 - 1:18:52] ▶
i'm still thinking okay what what was really going on there you know fascinating man what what do you
[1:18:52 - 1:18:57] ▶
think when when he goes to israel initially to see geller in 1971 and he geller's kind of channeling
[1:18:57 - 1:19:07] ▶
the nine again is it like the nine are somehow like he has a protocol to like summon these specific nine
[1:19:07 - 1:19:15] ▶
extraterrestrial beings is it this cynical hypnotic technique that he's doing where he's implanting
[1:19:15 - 1:19:21] ▶
this idea of nine extraterrestrial beings or what do you think that is is he is he calling in something
[1:19:21 - 1:19:28] ▶
that exists in reality these nine you know entities or is he creating those entities synthetically
[1:19:28 - 1:19:34] ▶
first of all just to quickly mention like this this idea that buharach is very um there's always two
[1:19:34 - 1:19:42] ▶
stories right so when he went to israel for the first time in some lecture uh we have he said oh you
[1:19:42 - 1:19:49] ▶
know there was this parapsychology foundation and they wanted me to go so they scraped some money
[1:19:49 - 1:19:55] ▶
together and i they i was able to get a plane ticket and i went to i went to tel aviv and that's
[1:19:55 - 1:20:00] ▶
how i got there right and then geller himself said oh yeah no he he was sent by the cia like directly
[1:20:00 - 1:20:07] ▶
he he was consulting for cia that's why he came and then someone else uh close to bar said oh yeah like
[1:20:07 - 1:20:15] ▶
that he was cia that's why you went but in this lecture in fact twice in two separate lectures
[1:20:15 - 1:20:20] ▶
buharach when he he kind of tells the story to an audience you know and he says oh yeah they just you
[1:20:20 - 1:20:25] ▶
know bought me a ticket this foundation so you know again a little thought in my mind where i'm like
[1:20:25 - 1:20:30] ▶
okay who's who's telling the truth you know yeah i think it's obvious but um right with the nine i mean
[1:20:30 - 1:20:36] ▶
so yeah it all did come from from uh hypnosis that was the protocol it was a very you know your typical
[1:20:36 - 1:20:44] ▶
countdown from a certain number um once you get there you know you're in a state where they can
[1:20:44 - 1:20:50] ▶
come through and i do think again like i mentioned earlier kind of having to accept some of these
[1:20:50 - 1:20:58] ▶
darker parts of the story like i do think uh to some extent like he was implanting this idea
[1:20:58 - 1:21:08] ▶
because you can you i mean you can hear it i mean again this isn't like speculation like on the tapes
[1:21:08 - 1:21:15] ▶
you can very much hear him saying you know is is it the not you know the type of like leading
[1:21:15 - 1:21:21] ▶
questions i think that a lot of people say oh you know you can't trust a hypnosis if they're doing
[1:21:21 - 1:21:27] ▶
this and it was it was it was that it was very leading questions and are you sure it's not the nine
[1:21:27 - 1:21:32] ▶
and oh actually yeah you're right it is and that kind of thing but what's so confusing is there's
[1:21:32 - 1:21:38] ▶
there's a lot of other sessions he did where it was like not like that at all the complete opposite
[1:21:38 - 1:21:43] ▶
you know not leading at all and the nine would still come through yeah so that's interesting yeah
[1:21:43 - 1:21:49] ▶
and that always goes back to the crux of who harich of like okay what what was he yes he believed in
[1:21:49 - 1:21:55] ▶
this stuff but yes he was also involved in yeah very by his own own admits you know involved in
[1:21:55 - 1:22:01] ▶
and mk ultra and all these things so it's like what believer master manipulator i mean i i usually
[1:22:01 - 1:22:08] ▶
clearly he was manipulative somewhat yeah i usually get to the end of these questions thinking it's
[1:22:08 - 1:22:14] ▶
like a yes and like an improv or whatever it's it's usually not like one neat solution kind of explains
[1:22:14 - 1:22:20] ▶
everything away yeah you know one neat solution that would explain everything away would be you can
[1:22:20 - 1:22:25] ▶
think of the archimedes lever of reality itself and its mind control right like that would explain like
[1:22:25 - 1:22:31] ▶
aliens reverse engineer like so many things um but then you you get into like the facts and the
[1:22:31 - 1:22:38] ▶
facts are just weirder than you think often and it's it's like well i actually think there might be
[1:22:38 - 1:22:43] ▶
these other beings that come in and certain cases he's not asking leading questions yeah but it's uh
[1:22:43 - 1:22:49] ▶
it's it's fascinating he also he isolates specific um extra low frequency waves yeah that he thinks are
[1:22:49 - 1:22:57] ▶
particularly powerful as far as implanting thoughts is that right yeah there's uh and again this was
[1:22:57 - 1:23:03] ▶
interesting because his uh research into you know elf extremely low frequency you know that was
[1:23:03 - 1:23:10] ▶
much later like late 70s 80s he was very involved in that but i figured out like once again like this
[1:23:10 - 1:23:18] ▶
origin point of the roundtable foundation like he was researching this stuff back then like this very
[1:23:18 - 1:23:25] ▶
specific extremely low frequency that can he figured out like penetrate the walls of a faraday cage that
[1:23:25 - 1:23:34] ▶
was like the only uh you know frequency that could do that you know they went on to use that frequency with like
[1:23:34 - 1:23:40] ▶
submarine experiments so that he believed was like the frequency that could carry you know audio information to
[1:23:40 - 1:23:49] ▶
somebody's head uh and he was very concerned that the soviets had similar capabilities yeah i mean there's you know project
[1:23:49 - 1:23:59] ▶
pandora which started in i think the the 60s which you know going back to intellectron that was right around the time this
[1:23:59 - 1:24:07] ▶
was happening which was you know yeah the same thing the russians had these sort of radio frequency weapons which which you know they did i mean that's all
[1:24:07 - 1:24:15] ▶
proven proven at that time i mean this is like pre havana syndrome stuff and so coincidentally you know
[1:24:15 - 1:24:22] ▶
at intellectron they're doing a lot of that same stuff i do firmly believe that that geller was some sort of
[1:24:22 - 1:24:30] ▶
guinea pig for these experiments because it's it's just too many weird red flags around this time that he meets him
[1:24:30 - 1:24:39] ▶
and i think and again i could be totally wrong but i think that there was just this
[1:24:39 - 1:24:45] ▶
you know we need to experiment on a real you know human being with some of this stuff and again it goes
[1:24:46 - 1:24:54] ▶
back to this mk ultra the you know lsd you know giving lsd to unwitting people like at a certain point
[1:24:54 - 1:25:01] ▶
with these kinds of experiments you need to you know do it on a real person or else you're never going to
[1:25:01 - 1:25:07] ▶
know how someone in you know the real world will react and i think geller you know was was part of
[1:25:07 - 1:25:13] ▶
something like this because there's a lot of experiments they did where um there's a story for
[1:25:13 - 1:25:19] ▶
instance where geller allegedly uh teleported so he was walking down the street in new york city
[1:25:19 - 1:25:28] ▶
1973 i think he claims he's walking down the street in new york city gets a weird feeling right all of a
[1:25:28 - 1:25:37] ▶
sudden he wakes up and he's in austin new york which is you know however 50 miles or whatever
[1:25:37 - 1:25:44] ▶
and and he crashes through the the screen porch there's footage super eight movie footage of of
[1:25:45 - 1:25:52] ▶
buhar filming the screen porch after this allegedly happened it's all smashed through right and geller of
[1:25:52 - 1:25:58] ▶
allegedly winds up in austin and he teleported and from new york city and puharic claims or told
[1:25:58 - 1:26:07] ▶
geller oh yeah this happened and the nine did this basically you since you were questioning their
[1:26:08 - 1:26:15] ▶
ability and their power they said well we're going to do something that will make you you know never
[1:26:15 - 1:26:19] ▶
question us again and they did this teleportation right and the weird thing is again like the length
[1:26:19 - 1:26:27] ▶
puharic went to to actually get a look you know again people don't remember this was like 70s like
[1:26:27 - 1:26:35] ▶
get a load of film you know put it in the put it in the camera film get the get the film transferred
[1:26:35 - 1:26:43] ▶
and and be like hey look i actually filmed when you right after you flew into the window and here it is
[1:26:43 - 1:26:49] ▶
it's it's proof so you know he's he's doing that but i i that was just one instance of me thinking
[1:26:49 - 1:26:56] ▶
like okay like this is a way to get somebody to believe that some crazy event like that really
[1:26:56 - 1:27:03] ▶
happened and geller believed it i mean he he talks about it he wrote about it i think later in his life
[1:27:03 - 1:27:10] ▶
he he started to question everything and he even came out with a statement on a radio show in like 2019
[1:27:10 - 1:27:17] ▶
saying that buharic had experimented on him with with mushrooms and had experimented extensively with
[1:27:17 - 1:27:25] ▶
him uh uh with with hypnosis but again like that story is crazy and he and i think it's like okay like
[1:27:25 - 1:27:34] ▶
if you can get somebody to believe that they had been teleported and smacked i mean what else could
[1:27:34 - 1:27:39] ▶
you get someone to believe and i just think it was all part of that type of experimentation and
[1:27:39 - 1:27:44] ▶
buharic himself way later in his life like i said when he starts to kind of reveal things he says
[1:27:44 - 1:27:50] ▶
himself i was involved in a program and my boss was the guy who did all research with hypnosis and mind
[1:27:50 - 1:27:59] ▶
manipulation so you know he he was doing it and i think a lot of the geller stuff was just like okay
[1:27:59 - 1:28:07] ▶
we need a guinea pig here to to see if some of these wild ideas work you know so wild i think there's a
[1:28:07 - 1:28:14] ▶
story too that geller tells around him meeting warner von braun and warner von braun taking him to a safe
[1:28:14 - 1:28:21] ▶
that contained some ufo artifacts maybe from roswell yeah well warner von braun again was um
[1:28:22 - 1:28:28] ▶
somebody close to buharic in the 60s specifically really yeah his assistant the same one i told you
[1:28:29 - 1:28:36] ▶
about who made the jfk comment said yeah he he talked to him you know all the time why so that was
[1:28:36 - 1:28:42] ▶
yet another person who was just kind of part of his you know rolodex but yeah i think geller said
[1:28:42 - 1:28:48] ▶
something to the effect of yeah he showed him um some photographs of um of yeah something from roswell
[1:28:48 - 1:28:55] ▶
or revealed or facts to him and i think he showed him material and i think he felt like he had a
[1:28:55 - 1:29:00] ▶
telepathic connection with the material verna von braun takes me into his personal office there is a safe in
[1:29:00 - 1:29:06] ▶
the office he opens the safe i see a piece of metal i've never seen such a color pulls it out it's not
[1:29:06 - 1:29:12] ▶
heavy says or you touch this tell me what you feel now i put my hand on it and i say verna this is
[1:29:12 - 1:29:19] ▶
not from here he says you're right this is a piece of a ufo that crashed on our planet uh it's over it's
[1:29:19 - 1:29:26] ▶
like he he knew that it was not from here or something like he showed it to him and he goes it's not from
[1:29:26 - 1:29:31] ▶
here and he goes how did you know so you know something it's so interesting the other thing too
[1:29:31 - 1:29:35] ▶
and this goes back to the the controllers um book a lot of the stories and again keep in mind this is
[1:29:35 - 1:29:43] ▶
all pre coming to the u.s going to sri everyone knows that stuff this is in in tel aviv before any of
[1:29:43 - 1:29:51] ▶
that and he another story like this teleportation one they're in um the sinai desert they're driving
[1:29:51 - 1:30:00] ▶
around in uh in a jeep and they're they see a a ufo and geller all of a sudden i mean puhart's book on
[1:30:00 - 1:30:11] ▶
geller is fun to read you know in and of itself is because it's like it's just like a cool crazy sci-fi
[1:30:11 - 1:30:17] ▶
book if anything yeah even though it's supposed to be you know non-fiction but he claims that this
[1:30:17 - 1:30:23] ▶
ufo lands geller goes into like a trance boards the the ufo comes back with like a pen and said or
[1:30:23 - 1:30:32] ▶
something like a pen and basically said you know oh these these beings told me to keep this because
[1:30:32 - 1:30:37] ▶
this will forever be proof that i i uh you know went on this craft but the same thing it's always like
[1:30:37 - 1:30:44] ▶
oh he's in a trance before this happens you know apparently and then it's that same idea of like
[1:30:44 - 1:30:50] ▶
he believed it and puhart kind of substantiated oh yeah you know we saw it land and we saw you walk on
[1:30:50 - 1:30:57] ▶
it and what but then it always goes to that question like why again you could just say oh well they
[1:30:57 - 1:31:03] ▶
wanted to experiment with can you get someone to believe in or just kind of framing it around this
[1:31:03 - 1:31:09] ▶
et ufo thing but it's always like why why do this you know why why was he doing this yeah uh you know
[1:31:09 - 1:31:17] ▶
i don't because again there's no concrete proof oh geller was a guinea pig he was he was a subject like
[1:31:17 - 1:31:24] ▶
i'm just kind of putting the pieces together but it just seems to me that it's like let's take this ufo
[1:31:24 - 1:31:30] ▶
et framework and do these kind of mind manipulation experiments around that yeah and see you know
[1:31:30 - 1:31:40] ▶
see what what people can believe and uh you also get into weird territory where it's like
[1:31:40 - 1:31:45] ▶
it does again the mk ultra thing just explain everything which is like such a dark version of the
[1:31:46 - 1:31:52] ▶
truth but it's possible we have to entertain that yeah or is mk ultra actually converging on a technique
[1:31:52 - 1:32:00] ▶
that the you know extraterrestrials or nhi non-human intelligence already has mastery over vis-a-vis its
[1:32:00 - 1:32:07] ▶
ability to like manipulate human beings like i think of one of the most credible cases for me is a guy
[1:32:07 - 1:32:13] ▶
named mario woods um who is uh at ellsworth air force base in 1977 in south dakota and he was a missile
[1:32:13 - 1:32:21] ▶
security officer and he's just like a really upright great guy and he uh thought you know like this
[1:32:21 - 1:32:29] ▶
sort of like b2 bomber was like kind of winking at him in the distance he and his um uh you know um
[1:32:29 - 1:32:36] ▶
teammate or whatever his colleague michael johnson go in this little jeep and they follow it uh they
[1:32:36 - 1:32:42] ▶
get there and it's this like huge like plasma orb that's glowing it's red hot and it uh it's the size
[1:32:42 - 1:32:50] ▶
of a walmart is the the line he always says it's sort of this crazy iconic line you know and um and uh
[1:32:50 - 1:32:57] ▶
he ends up nine being transported nine miles um away from the base uh like behind a dam and it's
[1:32:57 - 1:33:05] ▶
like then it's the next morning he has no idea what happened and all he i think had remembered was
[1:33:05 - 1:33:11] ▶
beings walking toward him saying do not fear do not fear and then he gets a hypnotic regression and he
[1:33:11 - 1:33:17] ▶
realizes that you know possibly he boarded a craft and what's really interesting is he says that after when
[1:33:17 - 1:33:24] ▶
he gets sort of you know debriefed they check his teeth i think he said that like the guy checking
[1:33:24 - 1:33:31] ▶
him now said that there was some sort of ambient radiation in his mouth or something from that time
[1:33:31 - 1:33:36] ▶
it's really sort of crazy um yeah that is the tooth thing is really strange and there's a lot online
[1:33:36 - 1:33:45] ▶
about um there's a story about a an individual who changed his name in fact because he didn't want to be
[1:33:45 - 1:33:54] ▶
associated with this but this was um so so post geller right so so geller uh lee basically they they
[1:33:54 - 1:34:02] ▶
kind of split up get geller wants to to move on and again way later in this 2019 interview he he kind
[1:34:02 - 1:34:09] ▶
of opens up and said yeah i was kind of like afraid you know and he he really opens up like i didn't know
[1:34:09 - 1:34:16] ▶
what was kind of going on and and i was suspicious and i just wanted to get away basically from this guy
[1:34:16 - 1:34:22] ▶
and so he you know but he was famous at that time anyways so he leaves buharic is you know trying to
[1:34:22 - 1:34:29] ▶
find another subject to bring through the nine he claims so this is even pre phyllis schlemer is right
[1:34:29 - 1:34:38] ▶
around because phyllis schlemer was sort of the next channel that he he discovers that that brings
[1:34:38 - 1:34:43] ▶
through the nine but before phyllis there was this guy in florida where phyllis was from she knew this guy
[1:34:43 - 1:34:49] ▶
he was part of a um a psychic class that she she taught and again i've heard from a lot of people
[1:34:49 - 1:34:56] ▶
that this woman phyllis was like a legit psychic you know knowing things about people and so forth
[1:34:56 - 1:35:01] ▶
but there's this guy that she knew she introduces him to buharic uh they do a bunch of experiments yeah
[1:35:01 - 1:35:08] ▶
sure enough he puts him he he hypnotizes him and he is communicating with not the nine but it was some other
[1:35:08 - 1:35:17] ▶
being i can't remember the name but anyways this guy says you know i got really really weird vibes
[1:35:17 - 1:35:25] ▶
you know etc but lo and behold he wakes up one day and realizes he has a uh metal filling that he never
[1:35:25 - 1:35:33] ▶
had and he goes to the dentist and says you know what what's going on here i i didn't get this done and
[1:35:33 - 1:35:44] ▶
they they looked they said yeah this was done um you know professionally there's no question about it
[1:35:44 - 1:35:49] ▶
and oh complete side note the guy that buharic uh ran into electron with was a dentist what that he
[1:35:50 - 1:35:58] ▶
met in the army so this guy discovers a a um a filling he never had he completely freaks out and and
[1:35:58 - 1:36:07] ▶
leaves the the group that is buharic phyllis and and it's sad and again this always comes back to
[1:36:08 - 1:36:15] ▶
this like not avoiding the the negative stuff like apparently the guy went like you know crazy he just
[1:36:15 - 1:36:21] ▶
had like a mental breakdown there's a couple other people in the the sphere of this story that this
[1:36:21 - 1:36:26] ▶
happened to but that's like a real story and the guide you know and he brought it up to buharic and
[1:36:26 - 1:36:33] ▶
they said oh you know we don't know what you're talking about we this we weren't involved with
[1:36:33 - 1:36:36] ▶
this or i think you know actually i think what they said was oh you know this was done by the the
[1:36:36 - 1:36:43] ▶
beings your talk they wanted this to happen and they they did this somehow and and so it's very
[1:36:43 - 1:36:49] ▶
bizarre you know um but that goes back to the i mean what you just told me is crazy because this was
[1:36:49 - 1:36:56] ▶
early 70s so there might be something going on with this this tooth thing and you know again i think
[1:36:56 - 1:37:02] ▶
the film does a good job of this or i hope it does is you know i don't believe or and especially don't
[1:37:02 - 1:37:10] ▶
want to believe that mk ultra is responsible for everything and all of this stuff because there's a
[1:37:10 - 1:37:16] ▶
couple stories in buharic's life that you know do seem like legitimate sort of extraordinary
[1:37:16 - 1:37:23] ▶
encounters for instance um in the late 80s uh buharic lived in north carolina and he uh there's a story
[1:37:23 - 1:37:31] ▶
that a bunch of his family was visiting a bunch of his cousins and people who you know are very
[1:37:31 - 1:37:37] ▶
skeptical about all of this stuff skeptical of buharic's whole world but some psychic uh that that
[1:37:37 - 1:37:44] ▶
night or that day said later tonight you know i just got a message that like a ufo is going to show
[1:37:44 - 1:37:52] ▶
itself over the house and so we have the video buharic's son andy who's an awesome guy he he did this kind of
[1:37:52 - 1:38:00] ▶
like funny video where he interviewed like all the people who were there at this family gathering and
[1:38:00 - 1:38:06] ▶
say you know what do you think is going to happen do you think it's going to show up and everyone said
[1:38:06 - 1:38:10] ▶
oh yes or no but that night um multiple people saw this huge ufo and andy tells the story and he
[1:38:10 - 1:38:18] ▶
like he gets emotional telling it and he's again a totally sane guy you know of course his dad was
[1:38:18 - 1:38:26] ▶
andre buharic but like he's he's very normal saying guy he said yeah of course you know the camera
[1:38:26 - 1:38:32] ▶
wasn't out because it was much later in the night and again pre-iphone of course you know you got to
[1:38:32 - 1:38:38] ▶
run in and grab this bulky vhs camcorder but apparently like him that bulharic's son and two or
[1:38:38 - 1:38:45] ▶
three of the cousins all saw this huge thing is silently hovered over so while and that and and
[1:38:45 - 1:38:51] ▶
his son again very emotionally says like that was the moment i said okay like i i believe in in this
[1:38:51 - 1:38:57] ▶
stuff and and i believe in and in things my dad did and he just had a very emotional reaction uh to
[1:38:57 - 1:39:05] ▶
that moment so it's stories like that where i go okay well you know what bulharic isn't running some mk
[1:39:05 - 1:39:13] ▶
ultra experiment on his family you know decades after now all this stuff so so yeah i don't want to put
[1:39:13 - 1:39:20] ▶
this idea out there that you know i i think that way i mean again it's just there's too many red
[1:39:20 - 1:39:26] ▶
flags in his story that sure point to his involvement but then there's that story where
[1:39:26 - 1:39:30] ▶
even his cousin who didn't want to be interviewed or everybody did talk to him and he was like yeah
[1:39:30 - 1:39:35] ▶
that happened you know well i think there's something it's like everybody sees the world through
[1:39:35 - 1:39:41] ▶
a perceptual prism or container and i'm sure with his hypnotic techniques and with mk ultra and with
[1:39:41 - 1:39:48] ▶
implants and all these things you can break that container and then probably intentionally shade
[1:39:48 - 1:39:55] ▶
or manipulate what people experience yeah but the idea that there's nothing outside of that perceptual
[1:39:55 - 1:40:01] ▶
prism that involves other entities between man and god or you know whatever your metaphysical beliefs
[1:40:01 - 1:40:07] ▶
are i think also involves some sort of hubris like you know you can you can have both but um it's
[1:40:07 - 1:40:13] ▶
yeah this is i mean this is one of the craziest interviews i've ever done man this is crazy i mean
[1:40:13 - 1:40:19] ▶
i'm i feel like shocked like listening to all of these facts and i'm just thinking as you're talking
[1:40:19 - 1:40:24] ▶
about puharj's son and this ufo showing up um what was night because i think of 1952 as the you know dc fly
[1:40:24 - 1:40:32] ▶
over washington invasion like maybe the most intense uh ufo showing in united states history as far as mass media
[1:40:32 - 1:40:42] ▶
covering it people seeing things you know i actually recently met a witness from 1952 and and and he was
[1:40:42 - 1:40:50] ▶
pretty amazing and he remembers it and stuff he's one of the probably last living witnesses wow um amazing
[1:40:50 - 1:40:55] ▶
yeah but do you think that had anything to do with the seance because i think of the seance with you
[1:40:55 - 1:41:00] ▶
know the original channeling of the nine it was 52. do you know what month uh it was it was um
[1:41:00 - 1:41:07] ▶
new year's eve okay well i mean it was before then because the so the the again i don't want to engage
[1:41:07 - 1:41:17] ▶
in any sort of you know selection bias here but july 1952 was when it was the thing showed up and so
[1:41:17 - 1:41:24] ▶
but a lot of that early channeling with the nod that was all you know 52 interesting yeah into 53 i mean
[1:41:24 - 1:41:32] ▶
it could have been and i told you like he he wrote in his journals about these orbs and the one of the
[1:41:32 - 1:41:37] ▶
psychics psychics would say you know go outside tonight you're going to see an orbs you know well
[1:41:37 - 1:41:42] ▶
every every time i want to get away from like the occult having to do with ufos it's like it's just so
[1:41:42 - 1:41:47] ▶
obviously it does have everything to do and there's there's even a group called the borderland society
[1:41:47 - 1:41:53] ▶
which was borderland well which one the borderlands research yeah yeah hearts was very involved in
[1:41:53 - 1:41:58] ▶
that in fact a lot of the recordings we have not a lot but some of them came from from them they
[1:41:58 - 1:42:04] ▶
were really they were they had a bunch of stuff saved actually so there's a really amazing like
[1:42:04 - 1:42:09] ▶
kind of nuts and bolts ufo researcher who i think did some software stuff for spacex his name is richard
[1:42:09 - 1:42:15] ▶
geldreich and he uh has uncovered like a couple of ufo either crashes or appearances where the borderland
[1:42:15 - 1:42:22] ▶
society knew about these ufo appearances before the military did before the army before the air force
[1:42:22 - 1:42:30] ▶
so and then you have you know this 1933 magenta crash which it seems like is getting increasingly
[1:42:30 - 1:42:36] ▶
corroborated david grush harold malmgren both talk about it and hugh angleton and james jesus angleton
[1:42:36 - 1:42:45] ▶
were there and you know maybe there's some occult stuff going on there yeah with the knights of malta
[1:42:45 - 1:42:50] ▶
right you know who knows but you know puhart was a master mason he was yeah interesting and um he
[1:42:50 - 1:42:57] ▶
tells a story uh in a lecture much later in his life about how he was always approached by
[1:42:57 - 1:43:04] ▶
these you know what he would call kind of dark occult groups and and societies and people trying to like
[1:43:05 - 1:43:13] ▶
get him to join and he he didn't want anything to do with it and that kind of thing well werner von
[1:43:13 - 1:43:19] ▶
braun was also i believe a freemason and he had gone through all these weird neo-pagan rituals as part
[1:43:19 - 1:43:25] ▶
of the german space program he was also close with walt disney and i think they're they made a little
[1:43:25 - 1:43:31] ▶
movie together and there's some free masonic symbolism there there's launch pad 33 in real
[1:43:31 - 1:43:35] ▶
life that he sort of created and then uh my buddy danny jones just did an interview with one of the
[1:43:35 - 1:43:42] ▶
last living apollo astronauts charlie duke and the number one moon landing hoaxer person bart cybral
[1:43:42 - 1:43:47] ▶
and danny on the phone with me is like dude i'm not sure that the early astronauts weren't mk ultra
[1:43:47 - 1:43:53] ▶
and it's weird you know and it's like you have you know a picture of jolly west on the set of 2001
[1:43:54 - 1:44:01] ▶
space odyssey you have you know there is yeah yeah yeah i think i did hear about that yeah yeah and so
[1:44:02 - 1:44:10] ▶
that's insane it is insane it is insane and and then you have these you know it's like the neil
[1:44:10 - 1:44:16] ▶
armstrong looking like you know he's in a hostage video joe rogan describes it like that you know um
[1:44:16 - 1:44:23] ▶
after he comes back from the moon and so you have to wonder if there's some sort of like weird
[1:44:24 - 1:44:29] ▶
my you know and if i didn't know puharj and you weren't of on braun you have one of the mk ultra
[1:44:30 - 1:44:36] ▶
architects yeah in touch with the head of the american space bar it's weird well the other
[1:44:36 - 1:44:41] ▶
thing too with the the nasa connection with puharj is again in the 60s um he was doing like a ton of
[1:44:41 - 1:44:48] ▶
like contract work for all sorts of um different agencies but so this is actually in newspaper
[1:44:48 - 1:44:55] ▶
articles we found but they were doing like telepathy uh experiments with with astronauts and and puharj
[1:44:55 - 1:45:02] ▶
claims this i've never heard it we don't have the tape but he claims that they before they went to
[1:45:02 - 1:45:08] ▶
the moon right they didn't know the surface of the moon what it would would be like really so they
[1:45:08 - 1:45:14] ▶
were saying okay how can we land a craft what we don't could it be hot is it gonna is it cold is it
[1:45:14 - 1:45:21] ▶
uh is it uh spike whatever so he he claims that they sent remote viewers to the moon to get a picture
[1:45:21 - 1:45:30] ▶
of like what it would be like uh so they would feel comfortable with like sending whatever you
[1:45:30 - 1:45:36] ▶
know if if they went to to to send stuff there and he says yeah you know somewhere in the nasa
[1:45:36 - 1:45:44] ▶
archives i'm sure there's the tapes we did where we recorded this psychic kind of remote viewing the
[1:45:44 - 1:45:49] ▶
moon and and he and he had the contracts of nasa like we don't we have one that doesn't say that but
[1:45:49 - 1:45:56] ▶
he clearly you know worked with them we have we have documentation of that didn't nasa also have
[1:45:56 - 1:46:02] ▶
a camp around with space children or whatever psychics yeah i've heard a lot about that um but
[1:46:02 - 1:46:09] ▶
i don't i don't know much about that i mean i know about obviously buchars we can get into that but
[1:46:09 - 1:46:17] ▶
yeah i've heard a lot about that that they're in the late 60s there's some somewhere in florida
[1:46:17 - 1:46:22] ▶
there's like a nasa thing with kids but i honestly i don't know i think gordon cooper might
[1:46:22 - 1:46:26] ▶
talk about oh dude gordon cooper was very involved with buharic so yeah so this is one of the this is
[1:46:26 - 1:46:33] ▶
the guy who spent longer in the earth's orbit you know in space than anyone prior to him he went in the
[1:46:33 - 1:46:41] ▶
late 50s and yeah he went to austin like many times and in his book he writes about um going there
[1:46:41 - 1:46:48] ▶
seeing experiments with the faraday cage seeing the space kids um yeah why was he so interested i
[1:46:48 - 1:46:55] ▶
mean why was a nasa astronaut interested in psychic research um i don't know i mean well i think coop
[1:46:55 - 1:47:04] ▶
gordon cooper i mean didn't he have some ufo uh stories or experiences or at least he was open to
[1:47:04 - 1:47:11] ▶
talking about that stuff we had some some kind of craft flying overhead had pretty good altitude
[1:47:11 - 1:47:19] ▶
flying the same kind of formation we fly in our fighters were they planes i mean what well it turns
[1:47:20 - 1:47:26] ▶
out they didn't have wings they were saucer shape that we never could get as high or as fast as they
[1:47:26 - 1:47:31] ▶
were so and to really positively identify them but they were metallic looking and saucer in shape so he
[1:47:31 - 1:47:39] ▶
was definitely like interested in this stuff and and um yeah so he went up there everyone went up
[1:47:39 - 1:47:46] ▶
there i mean the whole gene roddenberry thing is crazy yeah so the creator of star trek yeah so so
[1:47:46 - 1:47:52] ▶
that's like something i read about and you know i thought oh that's interesting but in puhart's archive
[1:47:52 - 1:47:58] ▶
sure enough is the tape that no one's ever heard of this session that is kind of like crazy to to to be in
[1:47:58 - 1:48:06] ▶
possession of but basically they would do these kind of round table-esque uh channelings where like
[1:48:06 - 1:48:15] ▶
back then these prominent people at the time we're now in mid-70s would come there spend time there and
[1:48:15 - 1:48:22] ▶
they would do these sessions and gene roddenberry went up a lot and he makes mention on this one tape
[1:48:22 - 1:48:28] ▶
recording that like you know he says like like i've said many times in the past which would indicate that
[1:48:28 - 1:48:34] ▶
this wasn't the first time he was a part of like a channeling session with them but yeah we have the
[1:48:34 - 1:48:40] ▶
tape where it was um roddenberry puharic and phyllis schlemer was the channel the channeler and you
[1:48:40 - 1:48:47] ▶
know she he he does his thing he hypnotically regresses her um she goes into uh trance he starts
[1:48:47 - 1:48:54] ▶
channeling the nine and roddenberry is there and it's like an hour or two hours of him asking questions
[1:48:54 - 1:49:00] ▶
about and that becomes everything the plot of star trek or well i wouldn't say the plot as star trek
[1:49:00 - 1:49:06] ▶
had started i think it would i think people think of deep space nine uh-huh which that came out post
[1:49:06 - 1:49:13] ▶
these sessions and um that you know of course nine and then there's a character in deep space nine who's
[1:49:13 - 1:49:21] ▶
called vanod just like the early nine channeler so there's no question like that that's connected
[1:49:21 - 1:49:28] ▶
and they actually wrote uh i have it and um i don't know what will ever come of it it's a it's a long
[1:49:28 - 1:49:35] ▶
story but gene roddenberry wrote a script called the nine and it's all about his he changed the names
[1:49:35 - 1:49:42] ▶
and locations and the whole premise is his experience of working with puharic and phyllis channeling the
[1:49:42 - 1:49:49] ▶
nine and we have an original copy of it and it's like amazing and from what we understand like
[1:49:49 - 1:49:56] ▶
roddenberry at the time was going through a lot with like i guess he was like drinking a lot and i don't
[1:49:57 - 1:50:04] ▶
know all the specifics but it just like it you know as as stuff in the in the movie industry does it fell
[1:50:04 - 1:50:10] ▶
apart or whatever and and it never happened but uh he was moved enough to write a whole you know 130
[1:50:10 - 1:50:19] ▶
page script about about his experience and it's called the nine so trippy yeah and you have so we
[1:50:19 - 1:50:27] ▶
should make it maybe yeah there you go yeah you have a hit greg up if you're interested yeah i mean
[1:50:27 - 1:50:34] ▶
you also you know think about the star trek you did with the you know the galactic federation yeah
[1:50:35 - 1:50:41] ▶
that's mentioned in a couple of real world contexts too one of which being um you have high meshed who
[1:50:41 - 1:50:49] ▶
would you know has won multiple the highest you know national security awards in israel is basically
[1:50:49 - 1:50:55] ▶
the uh founder of their space program and their their equivalent of space force and was i think head
[1:50:55 - 1:51:01] ▶
of it for decades yeah and he just writes this autobiography where he talks about uh the galactic
[1:51:01 - 1:51:07] ▶
federation yeah and so do you think there's something like more real going on that in in
[1:51:07 - 1:51:14] ▶
that like the heads of various nation-state space programs are aware of here uh perhaps yeah does he
[1:51:14 - 1:51:22] ▶
mention anything about the nine too or who ashed no i thought maybe okay not specifically okay but um
[1:51:22 - 1:51:30] ▶
the other weird connection to um israel puhart and everything was uh he was close with uh itzak bentoff
[1:51:30 - 1:51:37] ▶
oh yeah who's you know a really interesting guy um there's some videos on youtube with him he's kind
[1:51:37 - 1:51:43] ▶
of like the israeli puhart he he kind of looks like him and you know they have the same vibe going on but
[1:51:43 - 1:51:49] ▶
they were they were good friends uh i don't know the specifics of how they met apparently uh bentoff was
[1:51:49 - 1:51:58] ▶
you know instrumental in hooking up uh puhart with geller i don't know the truth to that but um
[1:51:58 - 1:52:04] ▶
um well they definitely knew each other because there's photographs of geller puhart and bentoff
[1:52:04 - 1:52:10] ▶
in an apartment in tel aviv together but you know bentoff is interesting because he worked for israeli
[1:52:10 - 1:52:19] ▶
intelligence i mean that's that's a fact and they and puhart was again like i said going to israel a
[1:52:19 - 1:52:25] ▶
lot at that time and he was always tape recording their conversations like him and bentoff would sit
[1:52:25 - 1:52:31] ▶
around like you and i are right now and they would record all their conversations which you know is
[1:52:31 - 1:52:37] ▶
not weird necessarily but also you know why would you do that and then save the cassette tapes decades
[1:52:38 - 1:52:44] ▶
later so you know there's a lot of clues like that that goes back to that israeli connection and and
[1:52:44 - 1:52:51] ▶
bentoff was one of a number of um scientists who were being tracked at you know puhart's house burned
[1:52:51 - 1:53:03] ▶
burned in 1978 um to this day no one really knows who did it but it was a proven you know arson job by
[1:53:03 - 1:53:12] ▶
the the fire department and bentoff uh around that time was also being monitored puhart was
[1:53:12 - 1:53:21] ▶
being monitored and there's this big like this circle of kind of his friends and colleagues were
[1:53:21 - 1:53:25] ▶
all claiming to be to be monitored be followed harassed and so forth um and there was some story
[1:53:25 - 1:53:36] ▶
connecting a possible israeli connection to this 1978 fire um but yeah that's a big big question mark i
[1:53:37 - 1:53:47] ▶
mean and bentoff died in a plane crash yeah that's right yeah sort of super mysteriously he was uh
[1:53:47 - 1:53:53] ▶
friends with a lot of the stanford research institute and early psychic you know research pioneers yeah
[1:53:53 - 1:53:59] ▶
and claimed to have this kind of theory of everything he writes a book called stalking the wild pendulum
[1:53:59 - 1:54:05] ▶
where individual consciousness is kind of a pinched node of some larger fabric of consciousness or something
[1:54:05 - 1:54:12] ▶
and uh fascinating guy yeah they were close like i said there's a couple tapes of them just like
[1:54:13 - 1:54:18] ▶
literally talking and they would just record it and they would talk about all sorts of things mostly
[1:54:18 - 1:54:24] ▶
you know their their uh shared interest and in consciousness and stuff but you know then there's
[1:54:24 - 1:54:29] ▶
this other theory that buharic could have not been a double agent and and and simply just a spy
[1:54:29 - 1:54:34] ▶
and going to kind of pick off information or hey we're we're buddies we're into the same stuff we should
[1:54:35 - 1:54:42] ▶
tape record our conversation like he was cia and bent down was massad or something yeah yeah but all i know
[1:54:42 - 1:54:48] ▶
is that stuff exists and you can put it together how how you want but you know i've told a lot of people
[1:54:48 - 1:54:56] ▶
and again it's not because i sort of fear for you know anything but we we really done maybe it's
[1:54:56 - 1:55:03] ▶
deliberate maybe we're not supposed to have found anything but we don't have any sort of like legitimate
[1:55:03 - 1:55:10] ▶
document or anything that really nailed and i think that's what's interesting about the the
[1:55:10 - 1:55:14] ▶
film and the story in general is like you still question there's still research to be done into this
[1:55:14 - 1:55:21] ▶
because we don't have the definitive answer of what's going on we just have all this
[1:55:21 - 1:55:26] ▶
all these strange breadcrumbs over several decades that would point to well i think the most interesting
[1:55:27 - 1:55:33] ▶
you know pieces of media or journalism beget more questions often than answers especially if you're
[1:55:34 - 1:55:40] ▶
cutting to you know the deeper architectures of reality yeah and uh i often think you should be
[1:55:40 - 1:55:46] ▶
kind of skeptical or distrust you know people who are like they're so sure it's just x or it's just y
[1:55:46 - 1:55:52] ▶
you know and in this case it's clearly this kind of murky subject but that i mean that makes it that
[1:55:52 - 1:55:58] ▶
makes it so fascinating right it makes you just want to go go deeper and uh yeah um i think that the
[1:55:58 - 1:56:04] ▶
sign too of the whole geller thing being like i mentioned earlier like him being involved maybe
[1:56:04 - 1:56:11] ▶
willingly in these kinds of experiments you know but he he um yeah he really opened up i mean anyone can hear
[1:56:11 - 1:56:19] ▶
it uh i don't know maybe it's been taken down but it was this radio interview from 2019 and he he was
[1:56:19 - 1:56:26] ▶
very open about you know i was i was scared um and he always uses the term like buharj made me believe
[1:56:26 - 1:56:33] ▶
this he made you know and then he and he does credit bar says look you know i i i love the guy he
[1:56:33 - 1:56:39] ▶
helped me he helped me get to the to america um so it's not like he's he hates him or he speak but he
[1:56:39 - 1:56:46] ▶
he's very clear like you know at that period like i was i was uh concerned about what was going on he
[1:56:46 - 1:56:52] ▶
mentions being pretty sure that uh buharic had slipped him the mushrooms so you know
[1:56:52 - 1:57:00] ▶
there's that i mean i i don't think he's he's making that up no i think it was like all these
[1:57:00 - 1:57:09] ▶
years later i think he wanted to come clean or sure about about like what he really experiences the
[1:57:09 - 1:57:15] ▶
vibe that i got from he's a wild character he has a very flamboyant online personality he'll often make
[1:57:15 - 1:57:21] ▶
these videos directed at world leaders so yeah trump don't push that button or putin stand down
[1:57:21 - 1:57:30] ▶
yeah whatever you know i know what's going to happen and he'll like predict the wild things happening and
[1:57:30 - 1:57:35] ▶
um well he was doing that in the 70s he was like like again these this this idea that you could use
[1:57:36 - 1:57:44] ▶
this directed thought to to change somebody's uh uh opinion or change somebody's uh direction or
[1:57:44 - 1:57:52] ▶
and then he talks a lot about doing that back then um i have a friend who worked at the princeton
[1:57:53 - 1:57:59] ▶
parapsychology lab and whenever i try to throw the kitchen sink of skepticism around like he's just a
[1:57:59 - 1:58:05] ▶
stage magician and he's you know i don't i don't know how legit he is he often said you know and i think
[1:58:05 - 1:58:11] ▶
they even have like a uh some papers where they studied him at princeton and yeah i think it's
[1:58:11 - 1:58:16] ▶
often again like these people have something that's a little anomalous going on and they play it up you
[1:58:16 - 1:58:23] ▶
know yeah i that's really actually my again with everything i said prior to him potentially being the
[1:58:23 - 1:58:29] ▶
sort of subject but no i i actually firmly believe that he was one of probably you know a lot of people
[1:58:29 - 1:58:35] ▶
out there yeah who have something and again it's just like can you turn it on every time can you
[1:58:35 - 1:58:40] ▶
can you perform at every instance someone asks you i mean no i'm not a i mean i i don't i don't
[1:58:41 - 1:58:47] ▶
know but i would assume like you can't do it a hundred percent of the time maybe you can do it
[1:58:47 - 1:58:52] ▶
sixty percent of the time yeah but i think that about him because i've heard enough stories
[1:58:52 - 1:58:56] ▶
um through all these people i've talked to and stuff who were like yeah he he had something you know
[1:58:57 - 1:59:02] ▶
i think he liked the idea of the showmanship and but yeah he definitely had something going on
[1:59:02 - 1:59:08] ▶
speaking of people with gifted you know psychic abilities uh who are the space kids the space kids
[1:59:08 - 1:59:16] ▶
are uh well there's a lot of them and we only were able to track down and interview um one two three
[1:59:16 - 1:59:25] ▶
five of them but basically when geller was kind of blowing up this was like mid 70s early mid 70s
[1:59:26 - 1:59:36] ▶
uh apparently the story goes that these kids all over the world um specifically in the united states
[1:59:36 - 1:59:45] ▶
and the uk and in and in china which are just the the stories that we were able to kind of look into
[1:59:45 - 1:59:52] ▶
but these kids would see um geller on tv and all of a sudden like that would uh cause them to just
[1:59:52 - 2:00:01] ▶
spontaneously like do something psychic like they would they would pick up a spoon it would bend
[2:00:01 - 2:00:06] ▶
or they would you know go into the room and the the the drawers but oh you know poltergeist stuff right
[2:00:07 - 2:00:14] ▶
and there's a ton of newspaper articles at this time which again like okay it could have all been a hoax
[2:00:14 - 2:00:22] ▶
whatever but you know it's like parents calling in uh the tv station you know pooharach claims like
[2:00:22 - 2:00:29] ▶
saying what the hell is going on here you know my kid just did this my kid just bent a spoon my kid just
[2:00:29 - 2:00:34] ▶
you know touched the the the refrigerator and it short-circuited you know all sorts of stuff
[2:00:35 - 2:00:40] ▶
and apparently it was because they saw him on tv and and something happened something clicked and they
[2:00:40 - 2:00:48] ▶
their psychic abilities just kind of like came out in that moment it's like a contagion of yeah the
[2:00:48 - 2:00:53] ▶
psychic yeah powers yeah so that's apparently what was happening and so pooharach of course you know
[2:00:53 - 2:01:00] ▶
learns this and he's very intrigued so he starts to you know visit some of these cases of kids who
[2:01:00 - 2:01:09] ▶
were doing this and um eventually i guess is so uh eventually he's so convinced that that this is real
[2:01:09 - 2:01:19] ▶
and that these kids actually have this sort of like sudden emergence of ability that he um brings them
[2:01:19 - 2:01:26] ▶
well again a lot of people have this idea there's a lot online about how he like collected all these
[2:01:26 - 2:01:32] ▶
kids almost like an x-men kind of thing which is partially true but mostly like he would lecture and
[2:01:32 - 2:01:38] ▶
in you know all over the the country in canada and places and and people and and we say kids we're
[2:01:39 - 2:01:45] ▶
talking like teen you know early apparently there were like some very young you know five four or five
[2:01:45 - 2:01:51] ▶
six year old kids but the ones that we're dealing with in the film are all you know in their early 20s
[2:01:51 - 2:01:58] ▶
maybe 18 youngest but they would see him at a at a lecture and they would they would approach him and
[2:01:58 - 2:02:06] ▶
say hey you know we gotta talk like i have i have these abilities and and you are obviously the guy
[2:02:06 - 2:02:13] ▶
who knows about this and and i need your help basically like they would kind of go to him
[2:02:13 - 2:02:18] ▶
so at that point he thought okay there's enough there's enough stories and enough of these kids
[2:02:19 - 2:02:24] ▶
coming to me that like i should start a research program and so that's when he sort of collects
[2:02:24 - 2:02:30] ▶
like a large group uh of of kids i think it was like again online there's all sorts of stories but
[2:02:31 - 2:02:37] ▶
it was really only like maybe like a dozen kids i think give or take but he he kind of invites them
[2:02:37 - 2:02:44] ▶
to to awsening where he's you know living and and starts this sort of camp where basically they are just doing
[2:02:44 - 2:02:54] ▶
psychic uh research uh research on these kids and i think again not unlike the earlier
[2:02:54 - 2:03:03] ▶
vanod roundtable stuff like a lot of conspiracy stuff pops up at this moment too because of the general
[2:03:03 - 2:03:11] ▶
nature of kids showing up at the house of a you know known intelligence uh connected scientists etc and
[2:03:11 - 2:03:21] ▶
so forth but um basically he collected them and um just started this camp where they did you know kind
[2:03:21 - 2:03:29] ▶
of went through the different abilities tested them and and that all led to getting back to the nine
[2:03:29 - 2:03:37] ▶
because a lot of these kids claimed they had some sort of encounter or or you know ufo experience
[2:03:37 - 2:03:45] ▶
and so buhar said okay kind of like grouped them okay all the all the kids who've had an experience here
[2:03:45 - 2:03:50] ▶
you know not and so all the kids that had an experience he would hypnotize them and allegedly the nine would
[2:03:50 - 2:03:56] ▶
come through even through these kids who most of which never knew about about the nine and and most of which were
[2:03:56 - 2:04:05] ▶
which were kids who like you you hear a lot with these experiencers who like they didn't want to talk
[2:04:05 - 2:04:11] ▶
about it you know they didn't want you know fame or they they were just like i'm actually scared and i
[2:04:11 - 2:04:18] ▶
want to know what's going on with myself you know they weren't trying to like you know do anything more
[2:04:18 - 2:04:23] ▶
than like can you help me figure out what's going on after after you've looked at this for 10 plus years
[2:04:23 - 2:04:30] ▶
do you think that the nine coming through these different experiencers abductees people who've seen
[2:04:30 - 2:04:38] ▶
ufos represent something real that's sort of you know non-human or extraterrestrial coming through
[2:04:38 - 2:04:46] ▶
these people or do you think that these were sort of synthetically implanted or kind of manipulated by
[2:04:46 - 2:04:53] ▶
puharic uh i think it's i don't want to say synthetically created i think what was going on
[2:04:53 - 2:05:04] ▶
at this time and this is um we're talking 74 when this started 73 74 and keep in mind this is right
[2:05:04 - 2:05:14] ▶
around the time the sri remote viewing stuff starts yeah and keep in mind how put off tells us that he went
[2:05:14 - 2:05:23] ▶
to puharic's house in ossining heard all about the nine and that puharic was apparently communicating
[2:05:23 - 2:05:30] ▶
with this thing called the nine wild and then didn't really say much has hal put off never talked about
[2:05:30 - 2:05:35] ▶
this no i mean in the film he does i gotta ask him but um he basically just tells a story about
[2:05:35 - 2:05:41] ▶
well quite frankly he was quite closed off when it came to the the subject of all this puharic
[2:05:43 - 2:05:49] ▶
um so i don't know i wasn't there at the interview someone else did it i mean he it was great he did
[2:05:49 - 2:05:55] ▶
it but he basically it was like puharic was more connected than anyone anyone ever knew and really
[2:05:55 - 2:06:01] ▶
he sort of alludes to that but he does say yeah we went up to his house there's footage of him and
[2:06:01 - 2:06:05] ▶
targ at ossining sitting on the front steps so my theory is that and people have talked about this
[2:06:06 - 2:06:13] ▶
and it's out there but i think that there was this sort of and and we know for a fact that puharic was
[2:06:13 - 2:06:19] ▶
part of the sri program a lot of people put off himself say no he wasn't he just simply brought
[2:06:19 - 2:06:26] ▶
geller and that was it he disappeared not true there's a uh a pay stub in puharic's archives that
[2:06:26 - 2:06:33] ▶
is a uh is from sri to lab nine who hearts his lab from 73 whoa we brought it up to put off he said
[2:06:33 - 2:06:43] ▶
oh i don't who knows it could have just it's whatever it's nothing basically but to me that that proves he
[2:06:43 - 2:06:50] ▶
was connected because i think the story most people read is just like he brought geller dropped him off
[2:06:50 - 2:06:55] ▶
there and was just like you know have fun basically but i think that puharic's house which was now called
[2:06:55 - 2:07:02] ▶
lab nine which again like intellektron and a couple others he had which are no use getting into but he
[2:07:02 - 2:07:09] ▶
just had these sort of like front companies which i just think it's obvious you know so at this time
[2:07:09 - 2:07:15] ▶
he had lab nine and i think that lab nine was doing sri research you know on on children because essentially
[2:07:15 - 2:07:27] ▶
a lot of the tapes are remote viewing there's no other way to look at it it's okay what's going on in this location
[2:07:27 - 2:07:35] ▶
uh what time is this uh such and such general going to be at this place uh when should we go here and
[2:07:36 - 2:07:44] ▶
it was actually speaking of adam curry i think it was actually adam who brought up this idea that
[2:07:44 - 2:07:50] ▶
you know a lot of people who go into a trance or hypnosis you know there's there's a protocol right
[2:07:50 - 2:07:59] ▶
it's either like a pendulum or whatever it is a countdown and i think the nine and and something
[2:07:59 - 2:08:09] ▶
somehow like this we're going to connect with the nine thing was like a way that these it was an in
[2:08:09 - 2:08:18] ▶
the if that makes sense for some of these kids to to sort of want to participate because again
[2:08:18 - 2:08:25] ▶
it goes back to if you really want to test like a kid's a real you know 20 year old person is a 20
[2:08:26 - 2:08:33] ▶
year old a better psychic than an 80 year old you know eventually you're going to have to find a 20
[2:08:33 - 2:08:38] ▶
year old and then do an experiment with them and i think what was happening was like if you go to a
[2:08:38 - 2:08:45] ▶
20 year old and say hey you know especially at the time with erie geller being famous you know
[2:08:45 - 2:08:50] ▶
whatever star wars this and that and you say hey you know do you want to be a part of an experiment
[2:08:51 - 2:08:57] ▶
where you can communicate with these you know these beings and you know i can put you in it's safe and
[2:08:57 - 2:09:03] ▶
i can put you in this this hypnotic state and you'll communicate with them like obviously
[2:09:03 - 2:09:08] ▶
you would say oh that's okay that's that's interesting that's cool you're not going to say hey
[2:09:09 - 2:09:14] ▶
you want to come be a part of a uh a covert you know mind control experience you're not going to
[2:09:15 - 2:09:20] ▶
approach it that way so that's my theory is that that was sort of his way and one of the space kids
[2:09:20 - 2:09:27] ▶
whose name i i don't i won't mention um she she basically admitted that where she said something to
[2:09:27 - 2:09:33] ▶
the effect a long time ago of like the nine was basically just like this sandbox for us to
[2:09:33 - 2:09:38] ▶
or some analogy like that where the nine is basically just like
[2:09:39 - 2:09:42] ▶
like this sandbox for us to to play in or something and again it was off it wasn't in the interview
[2:09:42 - 2:09:49] ▶
it was like one of those many phone calls we had and i always stuck with me so i think that at that
[2:09:49 - 2:09:54] ▶
time again you've got same years remote viewing experiments are starting at sri you've got the
[2:09:54 - 2:10:01] ▶
connection to sri via some sort of pay stub going directly to lab nine and you've got all these young
[2:10:01 - 2:10:07] ▶
kids who on the tapes are doing remote viewing so but the qu the question i want to push you on this
[2:10:07 - 2:10:16] ▶
is like remote viewing is used for the us from 72 to 95 and probably now yeah to like actually add to
[2:10:16 - 2:10:24] ▶
our intelligence abilities about real things drop russian nuclear bases find hostages you know whatever
[2:10:24 - 2:10:30] ▶
do you think that this council of nine were real you know extraterrestrial or non-human beings
[2:10:30 - 2:10:38] ▶
communicating through these space kids or do you think the nine was being implanted and they were testing
[2:10:38 - 2:10:46] ▶
their ability to sort of manipulate thoughts and that was through the nine or whatever and they had some
[2:10:46 - 2:10:52] ▶
some you know i mean clearly they did have some abilities to do that the the the evidence would point to the
[2:10:52 - 2:10:59] ▶
ladder i mean that's that's the best way i can answer that god that's crazy that's uh and that
[2:10:59 - 2:11:06] ▶
would go back it's very deflating i'm sure for a lot of the ufo well it is and again like i don't want
[2:11:06 - 2:11:12] ▶
to come across as this like negative skeptic person because i'm not but again it goes back to like if you're
[2:11:12 - 2:11:18] ▶
trying to be serious and piece together the life of this guy that spans decades like and and that's what
[2:11:19 - 2:11:25] ▶
you're hearing uh you know that's what you that's what you have but what is if you are saying some
[2:11:25 - 2:11:33] ▶
of the protocol to get people into this state involves uh saying hey you're you're contacting
[2:11:33 - 2:11:39] ▶
the nine and whatever it's some protocol and it sounds like a hypnotic technique yeah but then some
[2:11:39 - 2:11:44] ▶
seem super open-ended and they just seem to connect with the nine how do you sort of make sense of that
[2:11:44 - 2:11:49] ▶
well i don't know and that goes back to the kind of you know i think uh jeffrey mishlove brings this
[2:11:49 - 2:11:58] ▶
up of this sort of uh trickster element the kind of paranormal phenomena where like sometimes they're
[2:11:58 - 2:12:06] ▶
they're tricking you and sometimes it's real sometimes it isn't i think there was you know with
[2:12:06 - 2:12:11] ▶
buhar it's like again it's always that question of like where did he stand with like is this real
[2:12:11 - 2:12:19] ▶
research that he passionately believes in and he's trying to come to some sort of you know reality of
[2:12:19 - 2:12:27] ▶
of the et phenomena or was it just all mk ultra you know and again i don't think it was all mk ultra
[2:12:27 - 2:12:35] ▶
mind control stuff but there's some gray area there that is so hard to pin down because
[2:12:35 - 2:12:41] ▶
again in some of these um sessions and and this is strange is is that on some of the sessions you
[2:12:41 - 2:12:50] ▶
know he'll be like okay here we are with this space kid and in there and their mom is here
[2:12:50 - 2:12:55] ▶
and she's you know this is like the tape recording we're hearing and and on those sessions it's like
[2:12:56 - 2:13:02] ▶
you know typical okay the nine um the you know the world is beautiful we need to save humanity etc etc
[2:13:02 - 2:13:09] ▶
then there's other tapes that are like you know what time is the best to to remote view the kremlin
[2:13:09 - 2:13:17] ▶
so we can get into that you know so yeah so i think it's there was a way of like okay i need to kind
[2:13:17 - 2:13:25] ▶
of you know give an example to to maybe other people around to say hey look this is what we're doing
[2:13:25 - 2:13:33] ▶
okay see you set in on a session so now you know what it's like and then when those people aren't
[2:13:33 - 2:13:39] ▶
around it kind of gets to the the serious stuff is again what it this is what i'm you're hearing what
[2:13:39 - 2:13:47] ▶
i'm hearing it's all based off that it's not like really my personal um you know hardcore beliefs it's
[2:13:47 - 2:13:54] ▶
just like oh okay this is what i'm hearing yeah i think anyone would kind of conclude that yeah but
[2:13:54 - 2:13:59] ▶
again i think buharic like and and this is a big part of the film and a big part of my philosophy
[2:13:59 - 2:14:07] ▶
about him and his story is like i think he believed i know he believed in in a lot of paranormal stuff
[2:14:07 - 2:14:16] ▶
but i think he got sort of under the thumb of the uh you know intelligence world early on and i just don't
[2:14:16 - 2:14:26] ▶
think that he could kind of get away from that and i think you know you often hear it's like the mafia
[2:14:26 - 2:14:33] ▶
like you don't just leave and when you're when you're that involved as he was you know just say hey
[2:14:33 - 2:14:40] ▶
i'm i'm i'm good you know and i so i think that there was a lot of pressure on him to do some of this
[2:14:40 - 2:14:48] ▶
negative stuff that he may have otherwise not wanted to do and i think that's like a big part of the film
[2:14:48 - 2:14:54] ▶
and what i wanted to kind of get across with it is there's so much negative conspiracy stuff about
[2:14:54 - 2:15:01] ▶
him out there i mean there's tons of it have you read the stargate chron conspiracy the book it's
[2:15:01 - 2:15:07] ▶
really good it's um it came out in the 90s and it was the first book that really talked about a lot
[2:15:07 - 2:15:14] ▶
like this this book had the story that i told you about of the guy in florida who woke up with the
[2:15:14 - 2:15:19] ▶
the too thin plant and then this is the first book that really exposed basically saying everything he
[2:15:19 - 2:15:25] ▶
ever did was intelligence involved you you know he's he's an awful person he's an evil genius but uh
[2:15:25 - 2:15:32] ▶
you know it's not true and i think that i hope to get that across in the film and i think we do because
[2:15:32 - 2:15:38] ▶
like a big part of that that research i don't think he wanted to do i think he he in a way was forced to
[2:15:38 - 2:15:46] ▶
do it you know yeah and whatever this kind of amorphous blob that is the ufo legacy program that
[2:15:46 - 2:15:53] ▶
is always proverbially discussed but you know usually in a very kind of high level fuzzy ways
[2:15:53 - 2:15:58] ▶
i think that's probably the case with a lot of these people is that they were kind of sucked up into
[2:15:59 - 2:16:03] ▶
in certain cases they probably came upon really exciting scientific truths that were converging on
[2:16:03 - 2:16:09] ▶
things that you know some you know behind the the the iron curtain science you know uh group in the
[2:16:09 - 2:16:17] ▶
u.s you know uh during kind of cold war secrecy era already knew and uh and and they would recruit
[2:16:17 - 2:16:24] ▶
these people and then they would probably be forced to you know work on things in contexts that they
[2:16:24 - 2:16:29] ▶
weren't particularly happy about and didn't feel idealistic about and i'm sure that that's the case
[2:16:29 - 2:16:35] ▶
with him because i again like i don't want to um come come across as someone who's trying to like
[2:16:35 - 2:16:43] ▶
put him out there because i'm not i mean like i got to know his family really well i'm like very close
[2:16:44 - 2:16:49] ▶
with them yeah and and they were great when i showed them the sort of final product which really
[2:16:49 - 2:16:55] ▶
gets into this stuff and they were like you did a good job because you didn't shy away from from that
[2:16:55 - 2:17:02] ▶
and i think you know you illustrated it well but you know they were even like wow there's so much in
[2:17:02 - 2:17:07] ▶
here we had no idea about like we literally had no idea you you're telling us stuff that we never even
[2:17:07 - 2:17:12] ▶
heard before yeah so that just goes to show his own family was in the dark about a lot of it but you
[2:17:12 - 2:17:19] ▶
know the nine again like i just keep thinking i think about it a lot and i again like the the answer just
[2:17:19 - 2:17:27] ▶
is i don't know but what i've heard and what i've had access to that came directly from his personal
[2:17:27 - 2:17:36] ▶
records would indicate that it was it was a made up a made up thing fascinating um well that i mean
[2:17:36 - 2:17:46] ▶
that in and of itself seems a little messed up as does yeah you know slipping somebody mushrooms or
[2:17:46 - 2:17:52] ▶
you know telling them they've been abducted by aliens and taken aboard a ship when they haven't or
[2:17:53 - 2:17:57] ▶
quote unquote teleporting them and throwing them through a window and you know like these things
[2:17:57 - 2:18:02] ▶
aren't cool you know uh no and again like i think if you watch if anyone watches footage of buharach electric
[2:18:02 - 2:18:09] ▶
he's the most jovial funny night you know like he's not this like monster person and that's why i quite
[2:18:09 - 2:18:17] ▶
frankly think makes him like interesting and an interesting subject for a film because like he's complicated
[2:18:17 - 2:18:22] ▶
and he he's he's again i think being sucked into these things that he would otherwise not
[2:18:22 - 2:18:29] ▶
want to do any and not to ruin the end of the film but he basically like admits that that he basically
[2:18:30 - 2:18:35] ▶
admits like that is what was going on with him yeah well he warns future researchers basically like don't
[2:18:35 - 2:18:41] ▶
do what i did essentially is what he he his message is if you look at the zimbardo prison experiments at
[2:18:42 - 2:18:49] ▶
stanford or whatever where you know these prison guards start to get really self-important or stanley
[2:18:49 - 2:18:55] ▶
milgram's shock experiments you know it's uh and then you combine that with the you know the the power
[2:18:55 - 2:19:02] ▶
of the cia at the time i'm sure you could get coerced into doing all sorts of things and does that fully
[2:19:02 - 2:19:08] ▶
exonerate you like probably not but uh it's uh yeah i mean i think the the the best version which i think
[2:19:08 - 2:19:16] ▶
your documentary really gives is the nuanced one which shows how somebody could get incrementally
[2:19:16 - 2:19:22] ▶
walked into a position like that and there's just no question the level of um you know how how deeply
[2:19:22 - 2:19:30] ▶
connected he was to intelligence i mean there's there's a paper trail of it so there's just there's
[2:19:30 - 2:19:34] ▶
no way to kind of beat around that bush i think again i've just i've read so much online and there's a
[2:19:34 - 2:19:39] ▶
lot of speculation but at the end of the day like those people don't haven't seen the materials
[2:19:39 - 2:19:46] ▶
that you know we had so so interesting were there any other experiments they were obviously
[2:19:46 - 2:19:52] ▶
channeling they were using these sort of faraday chambers they had this machine that produced tones
[2:19:52 - 2:19:58] ▶
any other experiments that they were doing with the space kids specifically well here's what's
[2:19:59 - 2:20:04] ▶
interesting is that um and you see in the film like getting back to this idea of the nine being this
[2:20:04 - 2:20:11] ▶
kind of end point just to like get things get things done uh in the 70s we're talking 74 through 76
[2:20:11 - 2:20:21] ▶
you know middle east war right going on and puharic and specifically phyllis schlemer he was still
[2:20:21 - 2:20:31] ▶
working with her then but and and and all the space kids you know they weren't specifically going on
[2:20:31 - 2:20:38] ▶
these trips but they would literally have a session right with the nine and they would do group sessions
[2:20:38 - 2:20:46] ▶
where it would be like you know two people at puharic and two other people him and three other people
[2:20:46 - 2:20:51] ▶
him and six other people and that would apparently like bring the message through more strongly and
[2:20:51 - 2:20:58] ▶
and so forth but um in that time they're getting messages from the nine saying you know you need to go to
[2:20:58 - 2:21:06] ▶
egypt you need to go to you know any you know middle east area you need to go to russia you know and
[2:21:06 - 2:21:16] ▶
all these places which would otherwise be very difficult for for somebody to just go to during
[2:21:16 - 2:21:23] ▶
that period in fact one of the guys working with buharic at that time john whitmore he was a british guy
[2:21:23 - 2:21:29] ▶
who got really involved like he even says in an interview like you you normally could not even get into
[2:21:29 - 2:21:35] ▶
these countries at this time yet puharic with his psychic where we're going constantly because the
[2:21:35 - 2:21:43] ▶
nine said you have to go here you have to go there and so he kind of hints at like well what was that
[2:21:43 - 2:21:50] ▶
really the nine or once again was puharic involved in something else that he had to be in these areas
[2:21:50 - 2:21:58] ▶
at this time you know under the auspices that this was a psychic you know this was the nine
[2:21:58 - 2:22:03] ▶
telling them to go there phyllis schlemer completely questions everything and you know way later in her
[2:22:04 - 2:22:10] ▶
life really she did an interview she said he used the the td 100 machine on me all the time i never knew
[2:22:10 - 2:22:16] ▶
what it did i never questioned what it did and so you just have to ask like how is it that puharic
[2:22:16 - 2:22:23] ▶
is able to go to these places during that time get into very specific locations often involving very
[2:22:23 - 2:22:32] ▶
high-ranking government people and it's all just oh hey the nine told us to come here so we're here
[2:22:32 - 2:22:38] ▶
and um and so a lot of people speculate you know i've heard stories of you know christian missionaries
[2:22:38 - 2:22:45] ▶
who are actually spies and you know something like that going on again it's uh interesting
[2:22:45 - 2:22:53] ▶
to go down that road to think about and nothing we have like concretely proves that but i just think
[2:22:53 - 2:22:58] ▶
like the more you listen to those tapes at that time and the more you just kind of put things together
[2:22:58 - 2:23:05] ▶
like it does seem like what if that was that was the cover and oh this guy is so crazy he actually
[2:23:05 - 2:23:12] ▶
thinks a psychic is telling him oh just let him go what what a kook and meanwhile he's you know
[2:23:12 - 2:23:17] ▶
doing whatever he needs to do there yeah it's using the stigma of the science kind of in your favor as
[2:23:18 - 2:23:25] ▶
a cover for something more vital that clearly was was actually working and functional and he actually on
[2:23:25 - 2:23:31] ▶
these tapes gives this goes back to like the remote viewing stuff of like some of the questions that
[2:23:31 - 2:23:38] ▶
they're asking are like you know what are what is the code name that you know the the the you know
[2:23:38 - 2:23:46] ▶
russian guerrilla soldiers are using so we then know what to pick up on when we hear this code name
[2:23:46 - 2:23:52] ▶
so then that begs the question why would an alien why would an alien be like asking those types of
[2:23:52 - 2:23:59] ▶
questions if that's what you're supposed to be doing talking to the nine but to go back to the the the
[2:23:59 - 2:24:05] ▶
the the constant contrast is like he really was a genuine believer because he would often go um to
[2:24:05 - 2:24:14] ▶
the great pyramid in the in the same time and do like all sorts of experiments there really and he
[2:24:14 - 2:24:22] ▶
just loved going there like he was obsessed with the pyramid he's obsessed with the history all the
[2:24:22 - 2:24:27] ▶
the egyptian god like so you know that's not and there are nine there are specifically nine egyptian
[2:24:27 - 2:24:32] ▶
gods so that was something he was like obsessive about he would he we have tape recordings of him
[2:24:32 - 2:24:37] ▶
meditating in the king's chamber what in 76 and he did experiments with um uh one of the space kids
[2:24:37 - 2:24:46] ▶
in the pyramid and they brought through this information apparently they're channeling this
[2:24:46 - 2:24:50] ▶
egyptian god and some pretty weird information lined up during that session so then that goes back to
[2:24:50 - 2:24:56] ▶
like it's almost like okay i gotta i i have to you know do my job for the cia and on my off time i i can
[2:24:56 - 2:25:06] ▶
go in the pyramid and and do do some cool stuff i'm interested in that's just kind of what it seems because
[2:25:06 - 2:25:12] ▶
like again there's no mind manipulation dark stuff going on there it's it's it's very clearly him like i'm going to meditate in the king's chamber
[2:25:12 - 2:25:22] ▶
like well what does that have to do with you know mk ultra so i just think like and again this goes to like his death in the mystery book
[2:25:22 - 2:25:31] ▶
around that where i think like there was a situation too where he may have been you know on payroll for you know xyz
[2:25:31 - 2:25:41] ▶
intelligence agencies and going to do these things but kind of using that time to do other things he wanted and maybe that was he
[2:25:41 - 2:25:49] ▶
he shouldn't have done that and you know you think they took him out as a result maybe of that
[2:25:49 - 2:25:54] ▶
yeah i think a part of it is that he he because again he's going to egypt
[2:25:54 - 2:25:58] ▶
right because the nine are saying you have to go here you have to go to this location to meditate this
[2:25:59 - 2:26:04] ▶
and that but i think he's going okay well i'm already in egypt and there's the great pyramid and i've
[2:26:04 - 2:26:09] ▶
been wanting to go in there anyways so i'm already here i'm gonna go you know but he's there
[2:26:09 - 2:26:14] ▶
maybe on on a mission and hey you know don't screw around kind of thing i think there was a lot of
[2:26:15 - 2:26:20] ▶
that going on and um his death is completely mysterious what what happened you can see the
[2:26:20 - 2:26:27] ▶
stairway right for this window where my father allegedly fell down and they found him right at the
[2:26:27 - 2:26:33] ▶
bottom of the stairs we don't really know um what killed him
[2:26:33 - 2:26:41] ▶
well so there's a couple of things he he was sick at the time um but not i believe not enough that
[2:26:44 - 2:26:52] ▶
would have caused this to happen but basically it was 95 and around this time he was very vocal about
[2:26:52 - 2:27:02] ▶
his life like he was doing these sort of lecture tours at sort of parapsychology conferences and
[2:27:02 - 2:27:07] ▶
stuff and he was being very open about his past and and it was one of these lectures at that time
[2:27:07 - 2:27:15] ▶
where he said you know look i'll admit it um i worked for this part of the cia my boss was the guy
[2:27:15 - 2:27:21] ▶
who was directly involved with all the hypnosis mind manipulation who was his boss uh he doesn't
[2:27:22 - 2:27:27] ▶
name his boss but i wait you know what he might actually let me think he does i have to think about
[2:27:27 - 2:27:35] ▶
it did you figure out yeah yeah i know it trust me it's just in my crazy head pooharich head but but
[2:27:35 - 2:27:43] ▶
i'll remember it but um basically and so he says yeah that's what i did i was i was uh i was a
[2:27:43 - 2:27:48] ▶
i was a consultant at the time and so he opens up about a lot of that stuff he he literally says uh
[2:27:48 - 2:27:55] ▶
i can produce in your mind the image of of um an alien experience um his assistant what at the time
[2:27:56 - 2:28:07] ▶
was a woman who was on this this tape that dick russell recorded i told you about
[2:28:08 - 2:28:13] ▶
mm-hmm when puhart was in the hospital there's a part of the tape where dick russell goes outside i
[2:28:13 - 2:28:19] ▶
think they're having a smoke or something and he's and he's just kind of like hey look you know give
[2:28:19 - 2:28:24] ▶
it to me straight like what's going on with this guy and she she opens up too and she says yeah he
[2:28:24 - 2:28:29] ▶
told me about things he's done that he he he's worried for his life about saying she says he um
[2:28:29 - 2:28:36] ▶
using flashing lights using all tone all of that stuff was able to create the the the ufo experience
[2:28:37 - 2:28:46] ▶
that that stuff was all created she says so what she was opening up about that on this tape and so so
[2:28:46 - 2:28:55] ▶
he would like stage ufo is showing up as well i think what she's i think what she was getting at
[2:28:55 - 2:29:01] ▶
is what we were talking about with this this controllers um idea is that yeah like kind of i guess more
[2:29:01 - 2:29:08] ▶
implanting the the the idea that you've had an encounter or you know you've been abducted or so
[2:29:08 - 2:29:15] ▶
like he was involved basically making the point he was involved in that kind of stuff that kind of
[2:29:15 - 2:29:21] ▶
research um and again you know you're gonna ask like why why you know like why was it always like
[2:29:21 - 2:29:30] ▶
the ufo thing but um but all that was going on like right before he died you know that tape was recorded
[2:29:31 - 2:29:38] ▶
less than a year before he died but um he he was found uh at the bottom of the stairs he fell
[2:29:38 - 2:29:45] ▶
and he he passed away and at the time he had all these um he was still and again this goes back to
[2:29:46 - 2:29:55] ▶
like what did he really believe he was still living with this group of like women who were like psychics
[2:29:55 - 2:30:01] ▶
apparently and he they lived with him and he was still like you know doing stuff with them or whatever
[2:30:01 - 2:30:08] ▶
but but conveniently that day they no one else was there at the house uh when they were usually always
[2:30:08 - 2:30:17] ▶
at the house and puharic has this like weird legal pad that he wrote like very soon before this this
[2:30:17 - 2:30:28] ▶
incident occurred where he he fell on the stairs where he's basically like outlining why he thinks he's
[2:30:28 - 2:30:35] ▶
being monitored he names people that he believes have come into his life who are who are there to
[2:30:35 - 2:30:42] ▶
basically harm him and take him out he claimed again this is either like the work of someone
[2:30:43 - 2:30:49] ▶
completely paranoid or somebody who's just totally telling the truth well it's right before he fell down
[2:30:49 - 2:30:55] ▶
the stairs mysteriously he claimed that they this this and again it makes sense because these psychic
[2:30:55 - 2:31:01] ▶
people would kind of like show up even to this day and be like hey you know you should study me
[2:31:01 - 2:31:06] ▶
and this kind of thing so he and he was a nice guy again so he would want he would let people in and
[2:31:06 - 2:31:11] ▶
he would welcome them and so he claimed that there was a people like that who were actually you
[2:31:11 - 2:31:16] ▶
know basically out to get him and that they installed this elf uh emitter in his television set
[2:31:16 - 2:31:25] ▶
so when he would turn on the tv he would get hit by this you know elf that would be and he and he
[2:31:25 - 2:31:31] ▶
was a physician he was a medical doctor so he would know what was going on with his own body and he
[2:31:31 - 2:31:38] ▶
writes in this legal pad like you know i am this is happening to me i can tell he would test himself
[2:31:38 - 2:31:43] ▶
every day well he also developed a lot of these techniques right yeah they're using yeah what he developed
[2:31:43 - 2:31:49] ▶
on him on him yeah i mean if again if this were to be believed which i quite frankly do believe
[2:31:49 - 2:31:56] ▶
what he says in this but he basically is this legal pad and he really it's all these events kind of
[2:31:56 - 2:32:02] ▶
leading up to why he believes they're they're out to get him basically right but um yeah coincidentally
[2:32:02 - 2:32:09] ▶
the day he's found you know there's no one at the house and um right not right before that but a few
[2:32:09 - 2:32:17] ▶
years before before um his death he had been uh approached by the cia to head up a elf research
[2:32:17 - 2:32:27] ▶
uh department basically again he writes this i've i found some evidence to to prove that this this
[2:32:28 - 2:32:35] ▶
probably happened but there was apparently a department being set up just to study elf um you
[2:32:35 - 2:32:42] ▶
know weapons and so forth again a lot of that was going on in the late 70s
[2:32:42 - 2:32:46] ▶
and he he said no and apparently some argument ensued and he said you know get out of here and and
[2:32:46 - 2:32:53] ▶
because they came to his house he's kind of recounting this in his notes and um the guy that he said came
[2:32:53 - 2:33:00] ▶
on behalf of the cia to talk to him as a guy we know was involved in cia who's that this guy named bob
[2:33:01 - 2:33:06] ▶
beck who's in the who's in the film um and he was another puharach type where where he got roped into a lot
[2:33:06 - 2:33:15] ▶
of things i think he he wasn't necessarily wanting to to do but um so that happened where he refused
[2:33:15 - 2:33:21] ▶
that and said you know no you know get the hell out of here etc so all of that stuff was leading up to
[2:33:21 - 2:33:29] ▶
95 and he was found dead coincidentally you know the stargate program ends in 95. i was gonna i literally
[2:33:29 - 2:33:36] ▶
made that connection in my mind yeah and coincidentally um this guy grinberg jacobo grinberg yes
[2:33:36 - 2:33:45] ▶
who uh there's a great film shout out to um ida my friend he made this great film about him
[2:33:45 - 2:33:50] ▶
um in 95 uh less than a month after puharach dies he this guy disappears grinberg when if you see the
[2:33:50 - 2:33:59] ▶
film um the story basically is he was involved in very similar research basically was able to prove
[2:33:59 - 2:34:06] ▶
a lot of this psychic stuff was real and to this day they don't know what happened to him
[2:34:06 - 2:34:11] ▶
that's still a missing person did you ever meet puharach yeah they met when puharach was in exile in
[2:34:12 - 2:34:17] ▶
mexico after his house was burned uh they were they met in mexico in in less than a month after puhar
[2:34:17 - 2:34:28] ▶
is was uh found dead grinberg disappeared so again what do you say it's all coincidence and you move on or
[2:34:28 - 2:34:40] ▶
you say there's something so bizarre yeah grinberg the the whole thing about him is like he realized
[2:34:41 - 2:34:47] ▶
we live in a matrix and then he left the matrix or something like but what's interesting about him
[2:34:47 - 2:34:52] ▶
is like again it's it's it's literally still like an open case like they've never figured it out yeah
[2:34:52 - 2:34:58] ▶
and of course a lot of people say oh you know he he got sort of kidnapped by whatever government
[2:34:58 - 2:35:04] ▶
agency and they're using him and you know what's crazy is uh on some random message board uh this
[2:35:04 - 2:35:11] ▶
was like years ago i saw a post that was somebody like i know for a fact that puharach never died and
[2:35:11 - 2:35:17] ▶
he was he was taken in by the government and he's still alive and someone i know and the weirdest thing
[2:35:17 - 2:35:24] ▶
is a i was skeptical of that but i i was like years later i remember reading that and i and i spent
[2:35:24 - 2:35:30] ▶
hours and days trying to find this mess but i could not find it for the life of me i tried everything i
[2:35:31 - 2:35:37] ▶
could possibly do and i couldn't i couldn't find it um so that was weird that's super yeah so it just
[2:35:37 - 2:35:43] ▶
got erased or something i get and but that was the that's like the real theory of grinberg like again
[2:35:43 - 2:35:48] ▶
the doc is really good but there's like actually you know legitimate proof that like he he was
[2:35:48 - 2:35:57] ▶
sort of taken by by the government so that's what your friend who made the movie thinks
[2:35:57 - 2:36:02] ▶
that he was actually taken and well that's one of the theories that basically everyone involved in
[2:36:02 - 2:36:08] ▶
the story like agrees with because everything just points to like that so that happening so so all that
[2:36:08 - 2:36:13] ▶
was 95 january 95 was puharach's death february 95 grimberg goes missing stargate officially ends in
[2:36:13 - 2:36:23] ▶
95 government puts out newspaper articles all over the news you know stargate there's nothing to it
[2:36:23 - 2:36:30] ▶
it was all bunk um so and keep in mind buharach at that time was lecturing about all of that and being
[2:36:30 - 2:36:40] ▶
honest being open about all the experiments he did with you know stargate so i think um annie jacobson
[2:36:40 - 2:36:48] ▶
alludes to it like i just think it was this classic you know he knows too much and he can't be he can't be out
[2:36:48 - 2:36:55] ▶
there talking and he he's experienced too much he knows too much and uh it's not good so i could see
[2:36:55 - 2:37:04] ▶
them seeing him as a liability late in life you know maybe he feels remorse about some of the things
[2:37:04 - 2:37:09] ▶
that he did and he's speaking openly and exactly you know they're probably just trying to accelerate
[2:37:09 - 2:37:14] ▶
the research in the in the black um what are some of the wilder testimonies of the space kids that you
[2:37:14 - 2:37:21] ▶
spoke to so basically but the space kids like yeah there there were a lot um and again the reason the
[2:37:21 - 2:37:27] ▶
film took so long which you know to give myself credit for because a lot of people are like i can't
[2:37:27 - 2:37:33] ▶
believe it took you so long and this and that but a lot of it was like just getting people to talk
[2:37:33 - 2:37:38] ▶
because you know you could imagine these people like don't want to and again this is what you
[2:37:38 - 2:37:44] ▶
know you hear a lot about this with the ufo abduction stuff like these these people like
[2:37:44 - 2:37:48] ▶
weren't looking to be in the spotlight in fact they didn't want to be it took about two years
[2:37:48 - 2:37:55] ▶
for me to basically earn the trust of these space kids who i now consider like good good friends
[2:37:56 - 2:38:03] ▶
but that's what took so long and i always thought like in order to make a really cool
[2:38:03 - 2:38:08] ▶
film like you got to get these space kids it's like stranger things in real life you know like
[2:38:08 - 2:38:13] ▶
that's what would make this thing work and so i was just like convinced we got to get these these
[2:38:13 - 2:38:18] ▶
people and we got we got five of them but again there was like a lot more a few of them were like
[2:38:18 - 2:38:23] ▶
you know never reach out to me again i want nothing to do with this so what did they say i mean that's
[2:38:23 - 2:38:29] ▶
why five is amazing what what did they say well so basically like yeah what i did was i i somehow
[2:38:29 - 2:38:36] ▶
was able to track them down just basically through like in puhart's archives and things
[2:38:36 - 2:38:42] ▶
there and again on the tapes like he would say a name or he would write their name well actually in
[2:38:42 - 2:38:46] ▶
fact in one of his journals he like wrote all the names of the kids at the time so it's pretty easy
[2:38:46 - 2:38:51] ▶
to like google people but um yeah a lot of the the ones we got were were again after kind of talking to
[2:38:51 - 2:39:00] ▶
them and saying hey i'm i'm you know trying to do like a level-headed you know portrayal of buharic
[2:39:00 - 2:39:06] ▶
i'm not some crazy conspiracy person like after all that um yeah they were really open but um you know
[2:39:06 - 2:39:14] ▶
they basically talked a lot about like what it was like being at his house at that time which again was
[2:39:15 - 2:39:22] ▶
kind of cultish i mean if you want to look at it that way in the sense that like
[2:39:24 - 2:39:28] ▶
other than the space because there's just all sorts of sarfati jack sarfati being one of them
[2:39:28 - 2:39:34] ▶
like him and his kind of group of physicists people would go up there it was just kind of really yeah
[2:39:34 - 2:39:40] ▶
like a hub of just any all these people interested in this stuff would just go there and like hang out
[2:39:40 - 2:39:44] ▶
for people that don't know sarfati is a physicist who is pretty well respected and studied under you
[2:39:44 - 2:39:53] ▶
know very impressive people who you know were manhattan project you know pioneers and he has a
[2:39:53 - 2:40:00] ▶
model of time travel and warp drive physics yeah and he he lives in the bay area and he's very
[2:40:00 - 2:40:06] ▶
outspoken loves to call people a schmuck he's written about um in the hippies saved physics uh by
[2:40:06 - 2:40:12] ▶
by david kaiser this mit guy yeah and um so i didn't know he had any interaction with uh uh puharic that's
[2:40:12 - 2:40:19] ▶
amazing yeah he went to his house because he also i believe sarfati the way he got involved in this
[2:40:19 - 2:40:27] ▶
exotic physics that he ended up studying was he claims that as a teenager he was in some gifted
[2:40:27 - 2:40:33] ▶
and talented education program and he was he gets a call from the future saying you're going to meet
[2:40:33 - 2:40:39] ▶
the others you're going to be work on like building ufos essentially which he believes his work touches on
[2:40:39 - 2:40:45] ▶
building ufos yeah and in this is a guy who could keep up with you know any top theoretical physicist
[2:40:45 - 2:40:51] ▶
in the world like he's he's a real physicist he studied under hans bett uh you know at cornell and
[2:40:51 - 2:40:57] ▶
stuff yeah and um he uh says he gets a call from the future and then and then you know they tell him
[2:40:57 - 2:41:04] ▶
when he's going to meet the others and then he ends up meeting how put off like later or whatever and
[2:41:04 - 2:41:08] ▶
it's this weird synchronicity you know it's so strange so he's interacting with andre puhar yeah
[2:41:08 - 2:41:16] ▶
well you know it's a crazy connection i just thought of um in that story the so the sarfati story
[2:41:17 - 2:41:24] ▶
uh quickly is yeah he he got this call from this metallic voice which is what some of the um get what
[2:41:24 - 2:41:33] ▶
geller claims this as well actually but really yeah so he gets this called metallic voice that was
[2:41:33 - 2:41:39] ▶
some sort of you know alien intelligence but um i don't know if you remember his part of the story
[2:41:39 - 2:41:44] ▶
where his i think it was his dad or his uncle or something was was involved in the army or army
[2:41:44 - 2:41:50] ▶
intelligence and one of the people that he knew through a family member that was connected was this
[2:41:50 - 2:41:57] ▶
guy wilson green he brings up this guy wilson green and that uh guy wilson green was working with
[2:41:57 - 2:42:05] ▶
buharic in the 50s um at the round table doing everything they were doing there whoa yeah so do
[2:42:05 - 2:42:13] ▶
you did you ever ask him point blank hey jack like was any of your stuff do you think it was seeded by
[2:42:13 - 2:42:20] ▶
these sort of you know it could have been control people or i mean i think like he's open about that
[2:42:20 - 2:42:28] ▶
being a possibility as far as he is yeah but i just remember him bringing up that name and in in
[2:42:28 - 2:42:33] ▶
puharic's journals like he has one where he's kind of listing all these people that's when i first told
[2:42:33 - 2:42:38] ▶
you about the townsend brown connection this is insane yeah this is the craziest thing to tell
[2:42:38 - 2:42:43] ▶
everybody about this well in one of his journals it was just uh him recounting like he would often go to
[2:42:43 - 2:42:49] ▶
dc for like meetings who hardwood and this is early 50s again which weird that the same year you're
[2:42:49 - 2:42:58] ▶
channeling the nine you know in your lab you're going to dc to meet with all these people but
[2:42:58 - 2:43:03] ▶
he would just like keep very meticulous journals about what he did where he went who he met and he
[2:43:03 - 2:43:09] ▶
would just like hey i met this person for lunch met that person and so yeah wilson green comes to
[2:43:09 - 2:43:14] ▶
mind because he had something to do with um i think it was the army's psychological warfare department
[2:43:14 - 2:43:20] ▶
and that's the same guy sarfati references but in these journals he mentions um meeting townsend brown
[2:43:20 - 2:43:27] ▶
and spending the day with him and it's very brief unfortunate actually maybe we could do this together
[2:43:29 - 2:43:35] ▶
it's part of the page that's like so worn you can't really like read what it says but it's it's kind
[2:43:36 - 2:43:41] ▶
of a you know a brief uh mention that he he met with with brown and spent the afternoon he says
[2:43:41 - 2:43:48] ▶
something like spent the afternoon with him to disgust a lot or something like this i know some kid
[2:43:48 - 2:43:53] ▶
who like helped i think it's called the vesuvius project and he helped decode this ancient papyri
[2:43:53 - 2:43:59] ▶
and so if he could do that hopefully he could get us this uh you know this transcript that's crazy so he
[2:43:59 - 2:44:05] ▶
met him and this was again i'm positive it was 53 was that that journal so yeah he was going there um
[2:44:05 - 2:44:13] ▶
so yeah that's how i found it and it brings up all these questions of like were people like warner
[2:44:14 - 2:44:21] ▶
von braun and brown's ideas somehow seeded by like mk ultra adjacent things like probably not because you
[2:44:21 - 2:44:29] ▶
have like you know warner von braun goes way back to like you know early journey like it's clearly like a you
[2:44:29 - 2:44:33] ▶
know a rocketry genius like you know as a young kid um was all was way into this like you know like
[2:44:33 - 2:44:41] ▶
in his in his teenage years um or was like you know if you think about like what would be one of
[2:44:41 - 2:44:46] ▶
the main use cases of mk ultra it would be like keeping secret science sort of on lock maybe creating
[2:44:46 - 2:44:52] ▶
some sort of cult dynamics around it wiping people's memories when they work on really sensitive
[2:44:52 - 2:44:57] ▶
shit like who knows and townsend brown to me obviously i'm very high conviction in his stuff
[2:44:57 - 2:45:02] ▶
the audience will give me because i talk about him all the time but i think he's like the godfather
[2:45:02 - 2:45:08] ▶
of american kind of you know in the black dark science like whole tech trees that come from
[2:45:08 - 2:45:14] ▶
anti-gravity or extended electrodynamics or fifth dimensional physics i think kind of arrives from
[2:45:14 - 2:45:19] ▶
yeah townsend brown and so i wonder i wonder what that meeting was like the time then was weird
[2:45:19 - 2:45:27] ▶
overall i think what people don't realize about the 50s is like there's a letter between i think it's
[2:45:27 - 2:45:33] ▶
claude shannon who invented information theory was at princeton information theory is the basis of all
[2:45:33 - 2:45:39] ▶
modern computation and william shockley who invented the modern semiconductor yeah you know bell labs essentially
[2:45:39 - 2:45:48] ▶
and um it was a letter and he goes you know my my friend you have to meet my friend he's really
[2:45:48 - 2:45:55] ▶
interesting you know he's into all this you know interesting science stuff or whatever and it turns out
[2:45:55 - 2:46:02] ▶
he's talking about l ron hubbard and so the point is like it's this weird time where the intersection
[2:46:02 - 2:46:09] ▶
between the types of people who'd be engaging in like bizarre seances esp paranormal stuff that wasn't
[2:46:09 - 2:46:16] ▶
outside the overton window like it is today yeah and so yeah anyway how would you speculate on do
[2:46:16 - 2:46:22] ▶
you have you speculated on the connection between townsend brown and puharic nothing more than just
[2:46:22 - 2:46:28] ▶
they were probably interested in similar yeah similar things and and but it's odd because he said it was in dc
[2:46:28 - 2:46:35] ▶
so brown was there for whatever reason well brown was probably deep intelligence i mean there's a story of
[2:46:36 - 2:46:43] ▶
townsend brown engaging in a ufo crash retrieval and um i think it's in the late 50s and it's like i think
[2:46:43 - 2:46:52] ▶
hartford connecticut and this like green glowing object that seems like it's losing mass gets collected by
[2:46:52 - 2:47:00] ▶
uh a professor there named robert brown it then ends up at moonwatch at harvard which is connected with
[2:47:00 - 2:47:06] ▶
blue book and robert friend and jay allen hynek have possession of this you know material and townsend
[2:47:06 - 2:47:14] ▶
brown walks in to harvard flashes his credentials and takes the material and like that you hear stories
[2:47:14 - 2:47:20] ▶
like that time you have telegraphs that i think um or telegrams that uh his daughter um i think has
[2:47:20 - 2:47:28] ▶
uh i i know this i think through um this amazing researcher on townsend brown named jan lundquist
[2:47:28 - 2:47:33] ▶
and i think she says that there's a telegram between william stevenson who's the inspiration
[2:47:33 - 2:47:38] ▶
for james bond that ian fleming is churchill's super spy who was like
[2:47:39 - 2:47:43] ▶
you know um coordinating with wild bill donovan the oss he was like as high up as it gets when it
[2:47:44 - 2:47:50] ▶
comes to intelligence and there's a telegram from um him to josephine who's townsend brown's wife
[2:47:50 - 2:47:57] ▶
because townsend brown had had flown behind enemy territory parachuted into you know nazi german
[2:47:58 - 2:48:03] ▶
in 45 to interrogate some scientists because he was an expert in all this stuff and it's this
[2:48:03 - 2:48:09] ▶
telegram is says you know from william stevenson your husband is okay you know he's he's been
[2:48:09 - 2:48:15] ▶
injured but he's okay and he's on his way back to the us or whatever so i can give you like 50 other
[2:48:15 - 2:48:19] ▶
stories like that like curtis lemay i mean his daughter said i think on the phone with me linda
[2:48:19 - 2:48:24] ▶
brown says curtis lemay chases townsend brown down the stairs because he's so interested in his
[2:48:24 - 2:48:31] ▶
inventions and stuff so this guy was like as deep as it gets when it came to the american intelligence
[2:48:31 - 2:48:37] ▶
and military elite um so it makes sense if puha rich was as well on the kind of the psychic
[2:48:37 - 2:48:43] ▶
you know you know vector and maybe if all of this stuff is being coordinated at a higher level than we
[2:48:44 - 2:48:49] ▶
understand and there's some spooky science stuff and the anti-gravity connects with the psychic stuff
[2:48:49 - 2:48:55] ▶
you know nuts and bull like they all kind of materials they all kind of connect at the at the top
[2:48:55 - 2:49:00] ▶
those two guys seem like very central nodes yeah and i think there's a lot of similarities with what
[2:49:00 - 2:49:06] ▶
you said uh you know this idea of like flashing credentials and walking in play i mean there's again
[2:49:06 - 2:49:12] ▶
i could give you 50 examples of puharic doing that kind of thing that i've heard and so that yeah and i
[2:49:12 - 2:49:20] ▶
think like the journals that mentioned brown and these others like i don't think these were sort of
[2:49:20 - 2:49:26] ▶
meant to be seen you know these were like buried in his in his records in fact like in the film you'll
[2:49:26 - 2:49:32] ▶
see like his his his assistant at one point kind of mentions this idea that like not not um not long
[2:49:32 - 2:49:41] ▶
before he passed away like he had made mention like these papers i have in my house need someone
[2:49:41 - 2:49:46] ▶
needs to take them i don't trust giving them my children for their safety and so i think this is
[2:49:46 - 2:49:51] ▶
stuff that was not supposed to be um read you know or seen it's amazing there's a lot of other names i
[2:49:51 - 2:49:59] ▶
researched them all he met with dulles i don't i guess i didn't mention that wild he there's he's
[2:49:59 - 2:50:04] ▶
literally again in the journal met he's like you know says something like uh you know wait it was in
[2:50:04 - 2:50:10] ▶
the waiting room for an hour and finally got in and we had we talked and so obviously you're up to
[2:50:10 - 2:50:17] ▶
something serious yeah doing that you're meeting with the third director of the cia who yeah it's
[2:50:17 - 2:50:24] ▶
a while i mean if yeah if anybody was kind of running the government behind the government it was dulles so
[2:50:24 - 2:50:28] ▶
yeah d um yeah some of the wilder testimony yeah the space space kids yeah so yeah they so they just
[2:50:28 - 2:50:36] ▶
basically recounted a lot of like um what they experienced a lot of the channeling sessions so
[2:50:36 - 2:50:43] ▶
a wilder story is um uh this one of the space kids his name is jaime he's um from mexico city
[2:50:43 - 2:50:51] ▶
great guy and again he was somebody who would never have wanted to appear in a documentary you know like
[2:50:52 - 2:51:00] ▶
his life was totally fine you know he didn't need to talk about this but he did because event
[2:51:00 - 2:51:05] ▶
eventually he told me like if you're willing to like tell the real story like i'll talk
[2:51:05 - 2:51:12] ▶
because he knows like i did there's just so much like bs stuff out there about puharic and everything
[2:51:12 - 2:51:17] ▶
but um he told me a story about he um he was met at one time he was doing an experiment with
[2:51:17 - 2:51:27] ▶
buharic's assistant this woman who's in the film um they were doing an experiment they were meditating
[2:51:27 - 2:51:33] ▶
uh together and she they were sitting in a room together both meditating and he says that at one point
[2:51:33 - 2:51:44] ▶
she got up and she went over to him and she touched his forehead with her finger and when she did that
[2:51:45 - 2:51:57] ▶
she was like this big uh blue ball i guess this like ball of energy as he describes it appeared
[2:51:57 - 2:52:06] ▶
next thing he knew he came to she was all the way across the room against the wall and he was back up
[2:52:07 - 2:52:13] ▶
against the wall and he doesn't remember what happened and the last thing he remembers is that she
[2:52:13 - 2:52:19] ▶
touched his forehead some sort of burst of blue light she flew across the room and he told me that and
[2:52:19 - 2:52:31] ▶
you know and he said look you know you can talk to the assistant like she'll she'll corroborate this and
[2:52:31 - 2:52:38] ▶
and i did and she did and she did and his his theory was just like we some connection you know must have been
[2:52:38 - 2:52:48] ▶
been occurring and and and what what what do you do with that because something i learned which was
[2:52:49 - 2:52:57] ▶
very bizarre because this was another thing that buharic didn't kind of open up uh about until way
[2:52:58 - 2:53:05] ▶
later in his life is he he says and again this is not me or a speculation or making something up like
[2:53:05 - 2:53:12] ▶
he says in his own words he invented this uh prosthetic finger that would have a a chip with a
[2:53:12 - 2:53:19] ▶
certain elf frequency that would emit from it so when you touch somebody's forehead with this
[2:53:19 - 2:53:26] ▶
it would be the exact frequency that would like knock them into the hypnotic state they needed to
[2:53:26 - 2:53:32] ▶
be in in order to do channeling and so he could basically just like i could go like this to you and
[2:53:32 - 2:53:38] ▶
you would fall into the thing he says that one of the one of the kids says yeah i i remember that
[2:53:38 - 2:53:46] ▶
so was this instance with jaime and the finger something to do with that what was it not i don't
[2:53:46 - 2:53:52] ▶
know but that's one of his stories that was really bizarre any ufo related stories um yeah there was a lot
[2:53:52 - 2:54:01] ▶
of um there were a couple like the classic you know right now there's a ufo that's sort of hovering over
[2:54:01 - 2:54:12] ▶
this session and then some claim to have witnessed that um there was a few stories like that so that
[2:54:12 - 2:54:20] ▶
would be in the like his protocol like he'd be saying that or like they'd be like automatically
[2:54:20 - 2:54:26] ▶
channeling that would be like apparently the nine you know saying that saying this through them yeah
[2:54:26 - 2:54:32] ▶
but um then there was a lot of um but like if we're to get super concrete about this like is that
[2:54:33 - 2:54:39] ▶
him beaming the message right now there is a ufo you know above our head or is it like
[2:54:40 - 2:54:46] ▶
creating some weird protocol and then like what happens to them happens to them and we have no
[2:54:47 - 2:54:52] ▶
idea where that content is coming from um i don't know yeah yeah it's strange because
[2:54:52 - 2:54:59] ▶
a lot of these sessions are very long like some of them are literally like two hours long you know and
[2:55:03 - 2:55:10] ▶
it's it's just i i hate to say like it's kind of like you just need to hear it to kind of like yeah to
[2:55:12 - 2:55:18] ▶
understand because it's it's just it really is mind-boggling because i i constantly go from like
[2:55:18 - 2:55:25] ▶
this is this is uh an experiment this has been to like oh no this is like literally he's making
[2:55:25 - 2:55:32] ▶
contact with an extraterrestrial say you were to suspend disbelief entirely and just take the contents
[2:55:32 - 2:55:39] ▶
of the nine at face value how would you characterize these nine beings in what they want for humanity
[2:55:39 - 2:55:46] ▶
well it's like i said before um they they speak a lot about this idea that we have the ability of
[2:55:46 - 2:56:00] ▶
destroying ourselves you know and that if there's a way they can prevent that then they they want to
[2:56:00 - 2:56:07] ▶
and they talk a lot about nuclear bases and this kind of thing that you know we hear a lot about now
[2:56:08 - 2:56:14] ▶
uh they kind of say like we're kind of behind a lot of the sightings that that are occurring on
[2:56:14 - 2:56:21] ▶
nuclear bases um but then now i'm like you're making me think this is real
[2:56:21 - 2:56:27] ▶
the re the reason i'd love to be cynical about it but like the nuclear stuff has been going on since
[2:56:28 - 2:56:33] ▶
the 40s there's this guy bud clem uh there's this ufo and nukes documentary it's all based on robert
[2:56:33 - 2:56:38] ▶
hastings great work in his book it's really good and i made kind of a you know another little thing
[2:56:38 - 2:56:43] ▶
with robert hastings on my channel but you have this guy bud clem as early as 1945 in hanford where
[2:56:43 - 2:56:49] ▶
he's talking about these fireballs in the sky and they did this project twinkle which was deleted from
[2:56:49 - 2:56:54] ▶
the air force archives uh lincoln la paz this meteorite expert uh at university of new mexico is
[2:56:54 - 2:57:01] ▶
talking about green fireballs that seem intelligently propulsed flashing that like aren't explained by
[2:57:01 - 2:57:06] ▶
anything prosaic and just like the nuclear connection is so ubiquitous and then you're
[2:57:06 - 2:57:11] ▶
telling me the atomic energy commission gave him money they gave him like over a million dollars yeah
[2:57:11 - 2:57:17] ▶
so like if i were them i'd be like try to tap into what the hell is you know controlling yeah dude this
[2:57:17 - 2:57:24] ▶
is a crazy rabbit hole yeah obviously uh um what was i going to say you know you're see now you're now
[2:57:24 - 2:57:32] ▶
you're entering what i've been in for like years of this constant like wait a second now i think this
[2:57:32 - 2:57:38] ▶
because um there there was a lot of uh well you know the the classic thing where like with disinfor
[2:57:38 - 2:57:48] ▶
ufo disinformation they often say like some of it you know some real stuff is sort of peppered into
[2:57:48 - 2:57:54] ▶
yeah absolutely i think it was that kind of thing too where like maybe there was real you know et ufo
[2:57:54 - 2:58:01] ▶
related research going on with some of this mind control stuff peppered in just to throw off the
[2:58:01 - 2:58:08] ▶
course well what connection did you just make when i said the atomic energy commission what i was thinking
[2:58:08 - 2:58:13] ▶
was um there is uh i think i sent you something about this guy a while ago and uh i i have to say
[2:58:13 - 2:58:20] ▶
now i don't know enough um so i don't want to go too much into it but there's a guy his name is oliver
[2:58:20 - 2:58:25] ▶
riser he was a um philosophy professor at university of pittsburgh in the 60s and 70s um
[2:58:25 - 2:58:34] ▶
and he wrote a book called cosmic humanism which i've only read some of but it's basically uh this
[2:58:35 - 2:58:43] ▶
idea like his whole world view is this idea that like everything is wrong everything in the world
[2:58:43 - 2:58:51] ▶
is just run on frequency tone sound he thinks everything's like the universe is all sound uh
[2:58:51 - 2:59:00] ▶
and that's how you know we that's how like inner interstellar travel works that's how all psychic
[2:59:00 - 2:59:08] ▶
stuff where it all comes back down to this you know sound tones again there's this big connection
[2:59:08 - 2:59:14] ▶
here with this tone stuff but anyways buharaj knew this guy they exchanged like dozens and dozens of
[2:59:14 - 2:59:20] ▶
letters but this guy's theory um riser was you know the ability to communicate with you know et ufo is
[2:59:20 - 2:59:31] ▶
through tones through sound and he was like again so complex i can barely understand it but him and
[2:59:31 - 2:59:39] ▶
buharaj would exchange these letters that were like you know two masters going back and forth about this
[2:59:39 - 2:59:45] ▶
stuff like diagrams charts math and like you got to think like they obviously were like on to something
[2:59:45 - 2:59:53] ▶
and again this goes back for the hundredth time of like buharaj's real interest in this stuff but riser
[2:59:53 - 2:59:59] ▶
yeah this was his theory that the way to communicate with you know non-human intelligence was essentially
[2:59:59 - 3:00:06] ▶
through tones and through sound and so you get puharaj you know doing that basically where he's using
[3:00:07 - 3:00:15] ▶
tones and sound with space kids and can you while they're in a trance there's a lot of experiments
[3:00:15 - 3:00:21] ▶
where like i'm going to play this certain tone and can you kind of like connect with that tone while
[3:00:21 - 3:00:28] ▶
you're in this hypnotic state and can you follow that tone where is it bringing you and what do you hear
[3:00:28 - 3:00:34] ▶
now all sorts of stuff like that um so i guess what i'm getting at is maybe there was some real
[3:00:34 - 3:00:44] ▶
research there that had to do with something that wasn't just you know a mind control thing because
[3:00:44 - 3:00:49] ▶
this guy riser was brilliant i mean in his obituary albert einstein said he was like you know a genius
[3:00:49 - 3:00:58] ▶
is that true yeah what yeah albert einstein said like riser is he had some quote about him being
[3:00:58 - 3:01:05] ▶
you know this genius that's insane because riser talks about like parapsychology and mind batter stuff
[3:01:05 - 3:01:12] ▶
yeah and you think of einstein as being totally opposed to yeah well i think with riser like a lot
[3:01:12 - 3:01:17] ▶
of guys like he started doing more you know quote-unquote legitimate research but he got he got obsessed
[3:01:17 - 3:01:23] ▶
with this again this this theory of tone sound connecting the universe this is how everything
[3:01:23 - 3:01:28] ▶
works and so him and puharic were um exchanging a lot of letters about like you know do you have
[3:01:28 - 3:01:36] ▶
the ability to to create such and such a tone and what at what speed should it spin within the you know
[3:01:36 - 3:01:44] ▶
complex stuff but would lead me as a lay person to think like okay clearly they like they're talking
[3:01:45 - 3:01:52] ▶
about something serious here you know that's so fascinating so so and then the atomic energy
[3:01:52 - 3:01:58] ▶
commission funding it i find same years literally the same years he's exchanging letters with riser
[3:01:58 - 3:02:04] ▶
yeah 63 64. yeah that's when he gets the contract from atomic energy commission i mean it's all there's
[3:02:04 - 3:02:11] ▶
there's it's a paper trail and the 50s ufos showing up around nuclear bases is you this ubiquitous
[3:02:11 - 3:02:17] ▶
thing it's constant it's all over various cia air force documents you know i sort of document a lot
[3:02:18 - 3:02:25] ▶
of this stuff hastings documents it it's it was definitely a thing 64 there's a famous case at
[3:02:25 - 3:02:30] ▶
vandenberg air force base oh yeah the guy photo instrumentation specialist named bob jacobs
[3:02:30 - 3:02:35] ▶
um so that's that's fascinating yeah very interesting so yeah just points back to this idea that i i
[3:02:35 - 3:02:41] ▶
you know he he was genuinely interested in in in paranormal you know research and in ufo i mean
[3:02:41 - 3:02:50] ▶
it's not just like all of that was fake yeah yeah i just think it got muddled at some point yeah and
[3:02:50 - 3:02:56] ▶
like i you know maybe there's somebody like typing out you know what these space kids are channeling
[3:02:56 - 3:03:03] ▶
and then it's converted into this elf frequency and it's transmitting to the you know space kids brain or
[3:03:04 - 3:03:09] ▶
whatever well you know it's weird you say that because on a lot of the tapes there's mention of
[3:03:09 - 3:03:13] ▶
um coupling to the computer data bank is often a term that is thrown around a lot and this idea that
[3:03:13 - 3:03:22] ▶
there are some sort of computers involved on which end though because are they recording what they're
[3:03:22 - 3:03:31] ▶
saying no what you what you just said somebody's typing something whoa because they often say well
[3:03:31 - 3:03:37] ▶
now i'm back in the in the more cynical camp where it's well they said at one point he said um that you
[3:03:37 - 3:03:43] ▶
know the referring to the channel being the person you know at some point they will become a more reliable
[3:03:43 - 3:03:50] ▶
source of data and there's a lot of talk about about that and again like what we have are tapes
[3:03:50 - 3:03:58] ▶
and and tons of them and hundreds of hours so like you just all you can do is piece together
[3:03:59 - 3:04:03] ▶
well what did the space kids think do they think that they were genuinely tapping into nine you know
[3:04:03 - 3:04:10] ▶
non-human entities or extraterrestrials or do they think that they were tapping into like some dude on the
[3:04:10 - 3:04:17] ▶
other end like a lot of them probably know the history that you know at this point well that's
[3:04:17 - 3:04:21] ▶
a great question and i think that's really the best way to approach it because they they were involved
[3:04:21 - 3:04:26] ▶
firsthand but i think you know to answer from what i know is i actually discovered things about you know
[3:04:26 - 3:04:33] ▶
what i'm talking about with these more sinister connections that they they did not know in fact
[3:04:33 - 3:04:37] ▶
mm-hmm um one of the space kids who i'm close with like yeah she she was like you know shocked i i i
[3:04:37 - 3:04:46] ▶
because again what what they didn't understand what i think a lot of people didn't understand who were
[3:04:46 - 3:04:52] ▶
involved in this project is like information i was getting information like as recent as like six months
[3:04:52 - 3:04:58] ▶
ago about things that i didn't know that were like really important to the story like this guy bob beck
[3:04:58 - 3:05:04] ▶
who was who was most certainly cia who was at the at austin at the time of these exact space kids
[3:05:04 - 3:05:11] ▶
experiments this one of the spaces like i never even knew knew that like you're telling me this for the
[3:05:11 - 3:05:15] ▶
first time so it's a mix between i think to be quite honest i think a lot of them want to believe
[3:05:15 - 3:05:27] ▶
that what was happening was genuine and i think they want to remember the time they had there as a
[3:05:28 - 3:05:36] ▶
positive time and they want to they don't want to go down the negative path or they don't maybe want
[3:05:36 - 3:05:43] ▶
to accept that the negative path may maybe you know the reality and i don't i mean i would probably do
[3:05:43 - 3:05:52] ▶
that i mean i you know so i think um some of them want to just try to say hey look we were told we
[3:05:52 - 3:05:58] ▶
were talking in the nine we're committing with the nine we were it was a good time we were young we were
[3:05:58 - 3:06:04] ▶
free you know etc and a few of them um have become more open like the guy from mexico city i told you
[3:06:04 - 3:06:12] ▶
where i think some of the things that i told them made them say wait a second i didn't know that and all
[3:06:12 - 3:06:18] ▶
of a sudden after all these years they themselves are going wait what is that and whose name is and
[3:06:18 - 3:06:24] ▶
they're starting to put pieces together that they never they never thought about and they're starting
[3:06:24 - 3:06:30] ▶
to maybe think at least okay something else was going on what was it you know we don't we don't know for
[3:06:30 - 3:06:37] ▶
sure but i think they're willing to accept like some something else was going on back then
[3:06:37 - 3:06:43] ▶
one of the trippiest people that interacted with puharic who who he probably had plans for and
[3:06:44 - 3:06:51] ▶
almost seems like the subject of some you know kind of maniacal experiment is valerie ranson yeah who is
[3:06:51 - 3:06:58] ▶
she she well i wish i knew who she was she's like the most elusive person i've ever come across i think
[3:06:58 - 3:07:05] ▶
she's the most elusive person in this whole ufo history where i mean so basically what i do know is
[3:07:05 - 3:07:13] ▶
that she was um she was working in the uh white house during the uh nixon administration and it
[3:07:13 - 3:07:23] ▶
had nothing to do with like intelligent or maybe it did but it had nothing to do with intelligence or
[3:07:23 - 3:07:28] ▶
anything it was it was some sort of um uh program to i can't remember it was sort of like a snap
[3:07:28 - 3:07:35] ▶
benefits type program it was something like this but that's how she was you know involved in government
[3:07:35 - 3:07:41] ▶
was she was part of a program like that but apparently she became very interested in the ufo
[3:07:41 - 3:07:49] ▶
topic uh she became very good friends with um gordon cooper and she claimed to be a space kid i guess
[3:07:49 - 3:07:59] ▶
like she claimed to be able to like channel information and so she somehow wound up at puharic's
[3:07:59 - 3:08:07] ▶
lab lab lab nine and in 78 and she is very there's nothing there about her there's nothing out there
[3:08:07 - 3:08:17] ▶
about her there's a couple people i know about who have been trying to track her down for years they
[3:08:17 - 3:08:21] ▶
can't apparently she's still alive but she basically um i believe was extremely deep in the whole ufo thing
[3:08:21 - 3:08:29] ▶
and i think knew a lot we have a tape recording of um this guy elvis star who was very very high
[3:08:29 - 3:08:37] ▶
up uh i can't remember his exact role he was like maybe head of the army in this in the 60s some high
[3:08:37 - 3:08:46] ▶
up role in the army but anyways he was very very connected his pictures of him with like every you
[3:08:46 - 3:08:50] ▶
know president during the 60s 70s like there was a tape of him saying like i met valerie ranson in the
[3:08:50 - 3:08:57] ▶
white house um she believed she was in touch with extraterrestrials and he kind of makes a joke like
[3:08:57 - 3:09:04] ▶
what do i know maybe she was but that kind of firmly places her in that circle because there's a lot of
[3:09:04 - 3:09:09] ▶
speculation about like what's true and what's not true but this was a very legitimate guy basically
[3:09:09 - 3:09:15] ▶
placing her what's what was his role exactly he was um so from what i understand is yeah he was like
[3:09:15 - 3:09:21] ▶
the head of uh army something or other and then he went on to become the president of like west
[3:09:21 - 3:09:28] ▶
virginia university but he was a part of all these like weird science um uh companies and weird energy
[3:09:28 - 3:09:37] ▶
companies that were happening in the late 70s like there's this this company called magnetic energies
[3:09:37 - 3:09:44] ▶
llc or something that valerie had some sort of connection to and this guy was like consulting for
[3:09:44 - 3:09:51] ▶
that or he was connected to a lot of like weird stuff basically and it was very little on him
[3:09:51 - 3:09:58] ▶
other than his more official kind of government roles but um he he has this because he was writing
[3:09:58 - 3:10:04] ▶
a memoir and we found this tape where he was kind of like dictating um the what he was writing and he
[3:10:04 - 3:10:10] ▶
says yeah i met her she was in the white house a lot um she knew a lot of people but yeah she basically
[3:10:10 - 3:10:16] ▶
she just claimed that she could communicate with ufos that were giving her advanced um information
[3:10:16 - 3:10:22] ▶
that she in effect had to pass on to like important scientists she predicted the failure of one of these
[3:10:22 - 3:10:28] ▶
rocket launches in the late 70s that actually did occur which i don't i don't know you have to look
[3:10:28 - 3:10:34] ▶
that's so great what um oh wow so so so basically she was there but but the kicker is like she was also
[3:10:34 - 3:10:42] ▶
really involved in a lot of tesla technology research a lot of elf research and a lot of people
[3:10:42 - 3:10:47] ▶
who i know who were um including the space kids uh were like yeah she was like she was connected
[3:10:47 - 3:10:56] ▶
she was extremely mysterious we have no idea what was going on with her um so they remember seeing her
[3:10:57 - 3:11:02] ▶
around yeah yeah and then and then but and she was somehow like do you know what role she had in the
[3:11:02 - 3:11:07] ▶
white house or no other than this guy elvis star basically saying like i i met her on on numerous
[3:11:07 - 3:11:15] ▶
occasions at you know inside the white house you can look it up i i can look it up too i i i'm sorry
[3:11:15 - 3:11:22] ▶
i don't remember but it was some program that she like ran in dc and as part of the nixon administration
[3:11:22 - 3:11:28] ▶
which again was not like involved in an intelligence thing but that was her like in with
[3:11:28 - 3:11:33] ▶
with with that that world and she had some nro involvement too yeah jacques filet is the only
[3:11:33 - 3:11:39] ▶
one i know who wrote about it but he claims that he he spoke with her back in that late 70s time and she
[3:11:39 - 3:11:46] ▶
was doing some sort of work for the nro and um experimenting with satellites and messages from
[3:11:46 - 3:11:52] ▶
satellites to people and i'm telling you man yeah i mean i've tried to i mean the other film i'm doing
[3:11:52 - 3:12:02] ▶
which is a whole other thing but she's really involved in that and that's how i got into her
[3:12:02 - 3:12:07] ▶
because we have a tape recording of her um that was a phone call that was recorded but yeah if there's
[3:12:07 - 3:12:14] ▶
like any crazy enigma in this world that someone needs to like get to the bottom of it's it's her
[3:12:14 - 3:12:21] ▶
and uh i don't know if they ever will because i've certainly tried hard to and apparently she's still
[3:12:22 - 3:12:26] ▶
alive she's still alive yeah oh you gotta go find her man well i've i've i think i i think we kind
[3:12:26 - 3:12:33] ▶
of know where where she is and stuff but but it's really just strange she was very involved with gordon
[3:12:33 - 3:12:39] ▶
cooper and again he had started some company as well that was some like advanced energy llc or something
[3:12:39 - 3:12:46] ▶
and so from what i understand she was kind of like going around and even jacques says this like she was
[3:12:46 - 3:12:54] ▶
just trying to create this network of of you know high up government individuals and people to kind
[3:12:54 - 3:13:00] ▶
of like start getting interested in in advanced technology tesla technology elf stuff but all the
[3:13:00 - 3:13:08] ▶
while she claimed to be you know a space kid and able to receive information and and channel information and
[3:13:08 - 3:13:15] ▶
so trippy yeah and there's a guy a kit green he um i mean i don't even care anymore at this point
[3:13:15 - 3:13:24] ▶
about saying stuff like this like he i was talking to him for a while and he was like yeah i can't be
[3:13:24 - 3:13:30] ▶
involved in anything that mentions buhar is just too controversial and then he told me that he knew
[3:13:30 - 3:13:36] ▶
valerie ranson really well and that he was like i don't know much about him again i'm not trying to
[3:13:36 - 3:13:41] ▶
cover because i'm like nervous or anything i i genuinely don't really know i just know i've
[3:13:41 - 3:13:46] ▶
heard a lot about him being like a dog like a person who helps like abductee people who claim
[3:13:46 - 3:13:52] ▶
they're abducted and stuff so apparently he was doing that even back then with valerie and he was
[3:13:52 - 3:13:56] ▶
working with her which i don't know what that means exactly but he was very i mean there's something
[3:13:56 - 3:14:03] ▶
out there online as that's you know very you know open where he talks about this i think but um
[3:14:03 - 3:14:11] ▶
anyways he i i was like hey i'm trying to do this valerie thing about he was just like yeah no
[3:14:11 - 3:14:16] ▶
uh and like basically like don't talk me again and anything revolving that name i can't be associated
[3:14:16 - 3:14:23] ▶
with and every single person i've talked to who knew valerie or had same reaction yeah i'm literally
[3:14:23 - 3:14:34] ▶
like i wouldn't go there you should just kind of stop now and i've gotten all that stuff whoa so like
[3:14:34 - 3:14:40] ▶
what's going on what do you think do you have it well so for first of all a little context for the
[3:14:40 - 3:14:45] ▶
audience kit green um deeply involved he's a cia psychiatrist and doctor i knew that but after all
[3:14:45 - 3:14:52] ▶
that stuff i don't really know like what his he's he's deeply involved in like i think the whatever cia
[3:14:52 - 3:14:59] ▶
files around biological interactions from you know people interacting with ufos that was given to um
[3:14:59 - 3:15:08] ▶
gary nolan in the like mid 2010s i think that was i think given by kit green and kit green analyzed them
[3:15:09 - 3:15:15] ▶
alongside gary nolan but he's like a long time guy who kind of pops up in ufo lore kind of akin to
[3:15:15 - 3:15:22] ▶
uh how put off but really seems to be as deep as anybody specifically on kind of the
[3:15:22 - 3:15:27] ▶
the psychological kind of you know um you know neuroscientific dimension of of this whole thing
[3:15:28 - 3:15:34] ▶
so what what do you do you speculate as to what valerie well yeah i have a couple of things but
[3:15:34 - 3:15:40] ▶
yeah the kit green thing again i'm not i did talk to him i'm not trying to throw him under the bus i
[3:15:40 - 3:15:45] ▶
just think he like it's just another example of someone who's like oh her yeah i can't be involved
[3:15:45 - 3:15:51] ▶
like you you're better off like not going there kind of thing so a couple of speculations firstly and
[3:15:51 - 3:15:58] ▶
this came from someone um uh named bruce erickson who's this kind of like new age researcher guy
[3:15:58 - 3:16:04] ▶
who um i i know who's really cool but uh he knew her he knew valerie really well and he um painted her
[3:16:04 - 3:16:12] ▶
in the same light as like you know she always happened to be there whenever something was going
[3:16:12 - 3:16:16] ▶
on she always happened to travel with no no issues no money issues she's always anywhere she needed to be
[3:16:16 - 3:16:22] ▶
but um he speculates that she was sort of um like a spy and and and the type that would maybe sleep
[3:16:22 - 3:16:30] ▶
with with somebody for information and a lot of reasons that these men in particular don't want to
[3:16:30 - 3:16:36] ▶
talk about her is you know i don't need to say it maybe something happened now they're married
[3:16:36 - 3:16:42] ▶
they don't want to go there maybe that's why it's this very standoffish thing which i can get
[3:16:42 - 3:16:47] ▶
that but that was his theory um because apparently she was really good i mean there's one photograph
[3:16:47 - 3:16:53] ▶
that i know literally one that exists of her that's not true there's one online and there's one that i
[3:16:53 - 3:17:00] ▶
have in the puharach archives of her at lab nine um and you know yeah she was very good looking so that
[3:17:00 - 3:17:06] ▶
was this one theory is that she was kind of like getting information um on behalf of who i don't know
[3:17:06 - 3:17:12] ▶
but this you know you hear about that uh happening you know sleep to that kind of thing so that was
[3:17:12 - 3:17:17] ▶
what this guy said who knew her well that was his theory but um the other theory is that she um
[3:17:17 - 3:17:26] ▶
was again with the same idea of being an attractive woman was able to lure in uh individuals to help
[3:17:27 - 3:17:38] ▶
with funding for certain projects and hey i'm a part of this thing you should be a part of this
[3:17:38 - 3:17:43] ▶
thing because again she was always on these boards of these sort of weird energy companies and things
[3:17:43 - 3:17:48] ▶
like that but um the really weird thing is i don't know if you've seen it there's there's allegedly an
[3:17:48 - 3:17:54] ▶
interview of her on youtube so you you probably know this youtube account eyes on cinema oh yeah so
[3:17:54 - 3:18:01] ▶
anyways on there this one day this was not even that long it was like a year ago this video pops up
[3:18:01 - 3:18:07] ▶
and it says valerie randstone like describes her ufo um experience you can go anyone can go right now
[3:18:07 - 3:18:15] ▶
and look it up and i was like holy holy like that's her i've never seen again there's one picture
[3:18:15 - 3:18:22] ▶
and i'm like oh my this is crazy right so in the interview it's really bizarre she tells us really
[3:18:23 - 3:18:28] ▶
weird and the thing is it checks out of what we know from her and most of the information is from the
[3:18:28 - 3:18:33] ▶
forbidden science books jock valet stuff and you know she says i was going to school in northern
[3:18:33 - 3:18:39] ▶
illinois in this interview uh she says she moved to houston we know jock met her in houston uh the
[3:18:39 - 3:18:45] ▶
point is everyone i know who knew valerie i said oh this is great a video exists of her now sent it to
[3:18:45 - 3:18:52] ▶
them hey look here's valerie like can you believe this every no that's not her nope that's definitely not
[3:18:52 - 3:18:58] ▶
her i knew her that's not her and i said well that doesn't make sense because like everything she
[3:18:58 - 3:19:02] ▶
says in the video checks out to what we definitely know nope not her not one person and even this do
[3:19:02 - 3:19:10] ▶
you think they were like they just again didn't want to i don't know but it's just it's so goes
[3:19:10 - 3:19:15] ▶
back she's so she's the biggest enigma in this whole world every single one of them nope oh man what
[3:19:15 - 3:19:21] ▶
you know anyone who thinks that's her is an idiot and but everything she says checks out and in the
[3:19:21 - 3:19:26] ▶
video she tells this crazy story about how she had a ufo experience when she was a kid in college
[3:19:26 - 3:19:33] ▶
and her friends saw it and then after that she continued to have bizarre um sightings of ufo sightings
[3:19:33 - 3:19:41] ▶
happened to her in her life many times and then some guy you got to see the video she says this guy
[3:19:41 - 3:19:48] ▶
shows up one day to her job and is like hey you know i want to take you i can't remember exactly that
[3:19:49 - 3:19:55] ▶
what she says but basically this very mysterious guy shows up they go out to lunch and he's like
[3:19:55 - 3:20:01] ▶
you know i know that you've had these ufo experience and he and he spouts all this stuff
[3:20:02 - 3:20:07] ▶
about her that no one would otherwise ever know like stuff about her family i know you've had you
[3:20:07 - 3:20:12] ▶
had this ufo experience at this time in this location so she's shocked right so then she says
[3:20:12 - 3:20:20] ▶
she gets into the car with this guy because he's driving her home or something and he gets a tape
[3:20:20 - 3:20:25] ▶
cassette puts it in the car and the tape cassette starts and it's a voice a metallic voice
[3:20:25 - 3:20:32] ▶
basically saying you know i am an a i'm an et and i'm here on earth on like a humanitarian mission
[3:20:33 - 3:20:41] ▶
and i we want you to work with us you you're going to be the first uh test human to work with us
[3:20:41 - 3:20:51] ▶
and you know do you do you accept this position and and then she she the guy parks and she gets out or
[3:20:52 - 3:21:00] ▶
whatever and and she starts to question okay what what's going on here like was this real was this guy
[3:21:00 - 3:21:07] ▶
trying to like recruit and what it's it's that's her story and and then after that is when all this
[3:21:07 - 3:21:14] ▶
stuff happens of her getting involved with buhar oh this was like early 70s she claims this happens
[3:21:14 - 3:21:20] ▶
and all this stuff that we know about is you know late 76 and 77 70. so that's her like origin story
[3:21:20 - 3:21:28] ▶
but apparently it's not her according to everyone who knew her oh that's not her that's not the right
[3:21:29 - 3:21:34] ▶
woman that's not even what she looks like so but and the tape recording we have this which is a
[3:21:34 - 3:21:41] ▶
recorded phone conversation the voice on that which is most definitely her sounds it's it's her on this
[3:21:41 - 3:21:50] ▶
video it sounds just sounds the same it sounds like that voice so it's probably her yeah it's so weird
[3:21:50 - 3:21:55] ▶
so that's a rabbit hole in and of itself but but basically yeah she spent like a good amount of time at lab
[3:21:55 - 3:22:02] ▶
nine um and she brought gordon cooper there and then she disappeared and everyone who knew her was
[3:22:02 - 3:22:11] ▶
like yeah i have no idea what happened to her or they're just straight up don't want to talk about
[3:22:11 - 3:22:15] ▶
her i don't know it's really bizarre she wrote some book that's basically all this like channeled
[3:22:15 - 3:22:21] ▶
information that she got have you read it uh no well i i've skimmed it but i think you used to be able
[3:22:21 - 3:22:27] ▶
to buy it on some odd website which is now down but um it's very very strange and um when i was
[3:22:27 - 3:22:35] ▶
trying to get in contact with her i weirdly this is a crazy story i got like this this guy got in
[3:22:35 - 3:22:42] ▶
touch with me completely out of the blue and this has happened a few times throughout the the making of
[3:22:42 - 3:22:47] ▶
this where like someone is like hey i heard you got you have buchars archives i'm really interested in
[3:22:47 - 3:22:53] ▶
him and what do you have and we should we should talk and and that kind of thing this one guy weirdly
[3:22:53 - 3:23:00] ▶
right around the time i was trying to um try to track down valerie he reaches out to me and he's like
[3:23:00 - 3:23:07] ▶
same thing hey i know i'm a i'm a researcher and i heard your name about puhart and this and that
[3:23:07 - 3:23:13] ▶
and he's like you know have you heard of valerie rantzone i said yeah he goes oh would you want to
[3:23:13 - 3:23:19] ▶
talk to her because i'm actually in contact with her and i'm like yeah sure and and so he forwards
[3:23:19 - 3:23:25] ▶
me an email which is allegedly from valerie which is like you know hey uh you know let's talk and this
[3:23:25 - 3:23:32] ▶
and that and and one thing led to another and this guy just completely ghost disappears right never heard
[3:23:32 - 3:23:40] ▶
from him again i look him up on facebook and again i may maybe i'm crazy and this stuff has gotten
[3:23:40 - 3:23:49] ▶
to my head but his facebook looks like the the the quintessential i'm making a fake facebook account
[3:23:49 - 3:23:56] ▶
yeah yeah this isn't me kind of thing sure and that you know again i'm very level head that it really
[3:23:56 - 3:24:03] ▶
like spooked me out and then years later year this was we're talking probably tooth uh probably like
[3:24:03 - 3:24:12] ▶
2016 17 i'm talking like you know not that long ago like 20 21 20. he reaches back out to me and is
[3:24:12 - 3:24:21] ▶
like hey you know what's going on with the film and is there any way i can see it and hey did you ever
[3:24:21 - 3:24:27] ▶
talk to valerie if you want i can try to get and i just never responded to the guy again it was really
[3:24:27 - 3:24:32] ▶
strange wow and i tried the email that he had that he claimed was valerie's of course it like you know
[3:24:32 - 3:24:39] ▶
weird but well what happened when you emailed oh no nothing okay it wasn't it didn't kick back but i
[3:24:40 - 3:24:47] ▶
just never you never got anything i never got anything back ever yeah but you think you've located
[3:24:47 - 3:24:51] ▶
her yes and you're gonna try to interview yes that's amazing yeah well i hope you do man that would be
[3:24:51 - 3:24:57] ▶
incredible yeah i mean there's a lot to get in with into with her but that's that's the gist of
[3:24:57 - 3:25:05] ▶
it and just the fact alone that kit green was involved with her back in the late 70s is really
[3:25:05 - 3:25:10] ▶
strange so strange yeah and early 80s yeah this is crazy it's so it's like there's a woman in the
[3:25:10 - 3:25:19] ▶
nixon white house who's to claim she's channeling aliens and also happens to be on the board of all
[3:25:19 - 3:25:24] ▶
these sort of you know spooky science outfits that seem to stem from exotic tesla you know uh
[3:25:24 - 3:25:32] ▶
uh extra low frequency technology it's really wild and what i can say for for again for a fact is
[3:25:32 - 3:25:39] ▶
like in the late 70s there really was like so much um unknown about this potential like radio
[3:25:39 - 3:25:47] ▶
frequency weapons and it's on youtube there's a whole cnn special which came out a little later i
[3:25:47 - 3:25:51] ▶
think it was like 83 but it was kind of detailing all the research that had gone into like you know
[3:25:51 - 3:25:58] ▶
those those types of weapons and um you know radio towers that can beam a certain frequency that can
[3:25:58 - 3:26:05] ▶
agitate people and etc so that was kind of like the wild west and that in the late 70s there of like
[3:26:05 - 3:26:10] ▶
i think people trying to figure out what this is what can be done with it and he was just like in in the
[3:26:10 - 3:26:17] ▶
the middle of that and um you know there was a lot of people running around researching that at the
[3:26:17 - 3:26:23] ▶
time and i think there was also a lot of research happening of um you know what's the potential of
[3:26:23 - 3:26:29] ▶
this stuff what's possible with it um so and valerie was again interested in that and was involved in in
[3:26:29 - 3:26:39] ▶
that so it's so wild um what are the implications for all of this on modern ufo disclosure which seems
[3:26:39 - 3:26:49] ▶
to usually emphasize kind of aerospace contractors secret you know nuts and bolts weapons technology
[3:26:49 - 3:26:58] ▶
faster than light travel that sort of thing what are the implications of the stuff you're looking into
[3:26:58 - 3:27:04] ▶
for for for that i think it's i honestly i i think it's more of the same that we talked about earlier
[3:27:04 - 3:27:14] ▶
i think there's some there's some truth peppered into a lot of you know false going on and i think that
[3:27:14 - 3:27:22] ▶
that still happens you know i think that's still going on so you know i think the implications are it's
[3:27:22 - 3:27:31] ▶
just still difficult to navigate what's what's real and what is not real you know and i think it takes
[3:27:31 - 3:27:41] ▶
people you know like you and and others who are like really seriously interested in looking into this
[3:27:42 - 3:27:49] ▶
stuff and talking to people to to kind of like keep going with it you know yeah well this is a i mean
[3:27:49 - 3:27:56] ▶
if they're you know it's a big puzzle that we're putting together this is a huge piece that i think is
[3:27:56 - 3:28:00] ▶
missing for a lot of people you know prior to your movie so i really hope uh people go check it out i
[3:28:00 - 3:28:07] ▶
think it's going to be you know make make a lot of waves and update a lot of people's understanding of
[3:28:07 - 3:28:12] ▶
this whole topic and i loved it i thought it was really well made um how can people go find it uh
[3:28:12 - 3:28:19] ▶
well it's going to be for purchase um on you know itunes and youtube and that kind of thing
[3:28:19 - 3:28:26] ▶
yeah we're going to do kind of like this uh release now with um age of disclosure okay we're going to
[3:28:26 - 3:28:33] ▶
do like a you know you can purchase it for a certain amount of bundle situation yeah okay cool but there's
[3:28:33 - 3:28:39] ▶
some interest in in um some streaming stuff so and any anything big that uh i didn't touch on that i
[3:28:39 - 3:28:46] ▶
should have honestly like yeah probably but i mean you're you've got your gift that keeps on giving
[3:28:46 - 3:28:52] ▶
that's crazy oh oh um the one thing i was going to mention is um this is again an example of something
[3:28:52 - 3:28:58] ▶
like very recently like bobby ray inman yeah i know a lot of people are talking about right now i called
[3:28:58 - 3:29:04] ▶
him because because he was uh head of uh naval intelligence i think during this exact time um that
[3:29:04 - 3:29:12] ▶
who hart is doing a lot of space kids stuff like late 70s into the early 80s and a lot of elf stuff
[3:29:12 - 3:29:17] ▶
and i just just called him straight up and i introduced myself how'd you get his number
[3:29:18 - 3:29:22] ▶
i found his number online what yeah i kid you not it's one of those classic white pages sites where it
[3:29:22 - 3:29:29] ▶
was like a bunch of different numbers and oh my god none of these are ever going to work and i was
[3:29:29 - 3:29:33] ▶
like hello and it was him it was one of them oh my god and he was pretty nice but i just straight up
[3:29:33 - 3:29:38] ▶
was like hey have you ever heard you know the name andrea buharic do you know bob beck that because
[3:29:38 - 3:29:42] ▶
those are the two working at that time um with the space kids and he was like no i've never heard
[3:29:42 - 3:29:49] ▶
the name and he was really nice and he was just like if you come across anything more concrete you
[3:29:49 - 3:29:53] ▶
can call me back and and um but i just figured huh maybe he he knows something because we know we know
[3:29:53 - 3:30:00] ▶
naval intelligence at one point uh was like a big funder of buharic not not only back in the 50s but
[3:30:00 - 3:30:06] ▶
going into um the early 80s as well but anyways he didn't that's what harold malmgren always said
[3:30:06 - 3:30:14] ▶
he said the the deepest you know kind of core was the o and i office of naval intelligence they really
[3:30:14 - 3:30:21] ▶
knew the most about this stuff yeah he he buharic was in with them very early on and he continued in
[3:30:21 - 3:30:27] ▶
fact there was a um scientist working with buharic at the this time elizabeth rausher she passed away but
[3:30:27 - 3:30:34] ▶
they got like this huge grant from the the oni and i was like you know looking everywhere to try
[3:30:34 - 3:30:41] ▶
to find dog she has a huge archive at berkeley of all of her research and i i had someone go there and
[3:30:41 - 3:30:47] ▶
look and we couldn't find anything but but um you know they they were working with a lot of people then
[3:30:47 - 3:30:55] ▶
um but yeah inman uh didn't come up with anything so yeah well he might have reasons to withhold
[3:30:55 - 3:31:02] ▶
information as well he was the i think uh uh deputy director of the cia and the director of the nsa
[3:31:02 - 3:31:10] ▶
at the same time i believe yeah something like that um oh the other thing yeah the last thing i'll say
[3:31:10 - 3:31:17] ▶
is uh not unlike valerie one of the space kids who we did an interview because we couldn't find her but
[3:31:17 - 3:31:25] ▶
she's on a lot of these tapes so it was this woman named sharon so um you know sharon with two r's
[3:31:25 - 3:31:32] ▶
mm and like valerie you know huge question mark everyone who knew her then was like she was this
[3:31:32 - 3:31:40] ▶
very legitimate real psychic puharic apparently would bring her around show her off to people
[3:31:40 - 3:31:46] ▶
in government and academics and just say like look what she can do she can channel all this advanced
[3:31:46 - 3:31:51] ▶
information he was always working with her there's pictures of her and she just disappeared and
[3:31:51 - 3:31:57] ▶
everyone who knew her back then was like you know it would be amazing if you found her because she
[3:31:57 - 3:32:03] ▶
they're convinced that she was pulled into a you know stranger things montauk project type project where
[3:32:03 - 3:32:10] ▶
like she was the real deal and she was sort of pulled into a project like that that's why she's just
[3:32:10 - 3:32:16] ▶
kind of like wiped off the face there there's nothing about her anywhere again i went to the
[3:32:16 - 3:32:20] ▶
great lengths to try to locate her nothing does this people don't want to like valerie they don't want
[3:32:21 - 3:32:26] ▶
to talk about her when you bring her up so that was another example of like okay maybe there's some
[3:32:26 - 3:32:31] ▶
reality here because it's just so bizarre and like multiple space kids were like yeah i knew her well and
[3:32:31 - 3:32:38] ▶
i i wish we could find her like she was a friend of mine and she disappeared just like she was a the whole
[3:32:38 - 3:32:43] ▶
program was a feeder maybe into something deeper yeah there's a lot of conspiracy stuff like that out there
[3:32:43 - 3:32:49] ▶
but um people think that his yeah buharach's lab was was that so do you does this add to your
[3:32:49 - 3:32:56] ▶
conviction you know i think even the makers of stranger things say that uh it's based off of you
[3:32:56 - 3:33:02] ▶
know the montauk experiments and i think it's pretty well established that there were some experiments in
[3:33:02 - 3:33:07] ▶
montauk long island does this add to your conviction that i don't know you hear all these things around
[3:33:07 - 3:33:12] ▶
gifted and talented education you know uh kids who do who have psi abilities yeah being taken into
[3:33:12 - 3:33:19] ▶
secret national labs facilities often associated with the atomic energy commission or federally funded
[3:33:19 - 3:33:25] ▶
research and development centers like patel memorial institute and others and um you know they're
[3:33:25 - 3:33:31] ▶
they're told to like you know how do you interact with this exotic piece of metal or uh you know pick a
[3:33:32 - 3:33:39] ▶
card or you know things like that does this add to your conviction that this was happening in sort of a
[3:33:39 - 3:33:44] ▶
widespread way oh yeah buharach himself um again if you choose to believe you know what he says he he openly
[3:33:44 - 3:33:53] ▶
says i helped locate these kids he talks about it i mean he says like i was the person who would say you know
[3:33:53 - 3:34:02] ▶
yeah this you know this one checks out and they would move on to wherever they would move on to
[3:34:02 - 3:34:07] ▶
um he talks about helping other countries with this the uk he said he traveled to the uk and helped
[3:34:08 - 3:34:14] ▶
them locate children with psi abilities so it's all that it's all that gray area you know yeah and you you
[3:34:14 - 3:34:24] ▶
have to ask why this stuff is coming back into vogue like you have the telepathy tapes top the podcast charts
[3:34:24 - 3:34:31] ▶
in the entire country yeah and part of me is thinks it's a beautiful amazing thing and obviously in
[3:34:31 - 3:34:37] ▶
my opinion i think i don't think it's all a psyop i think that some of these autistic non-verbal
[3:34:37 - 3:34:44] ▶
children are actually they do have really amazing abilities it's unfortunate that some of them like
[3:34:44 - 3:34:51] ▶
this woman that went on danny jones um i think are actually faking things the mother of one of the kids
[3:34:51 - 3:34:58] ▶
and she clearly was peeking past this blindfold which is it's just so sad and what a poor representation
[3:34:58 - 3:35:05] ▶
of you know again what i think is an underlying real phenomena but does it does it make you ask
[3:35:05 - 3:35:10] ▶
questions around why is all of this stuff coming back into vogue it feels like if you were to take an
[3:35:10 - 3:35:18] ▶
index of aliens psi and psychedelics um and you were to you were to you know in like say it's like
[3:35:18 - 3:35:27] ▶
a you know synthetic derivatives like an etf or something if you were to invest in this in the
[3:35:27 - 3:35:31] ▶
late 60s early 70s you'd like lose a lot of money into today but now if you were to invest in these
[3:35:32 - 3:35:37] ▶
things five years ago or something it's just feels like they're all taking off like it feels like the
[3:35:37 - 3:35:44] ▶
the trend is like and are you cynical about that is is there is there i mean maybe even to take that
[3:35:44 - 3:35:50] ▶
etf analogy further are there financial or corporate interests behind the repopularization of some of
[3:35:50 - 3:35:58] ▶
these things because a part of me is extremely idealistic about them coming out because i do think
[3:35:58 - 3:36:04] ▶
it touches on kind of deeper architectures and nature of reality and then there's another part of
[3:36:04 - 3:36:10] ▶
me where i'm like it's got to be coming out now because of some military industrial complex reason
[3:36:10 - 3:36:16] ▶
or something i don't know i mean i think i certainly think this film is going to help you know put some
[3:36:16 - 3:36:23] ▶
pieces together about the history of all this stuff and i think the fact that it's coming out now is
[3:36:23 - 3:36:28] ▶
interesting because of all this you know this resurgence of interest in it but um i know what you
[3:36:28 - 3:36:35] ▶
mean i don't know like i talked to a kid who claimed he was part of the gate program and i won't say
[3:36:35 - 3:36:40] ▶
his name but now now he's very vocal online about his involvement in that and what he did and he
[3:36:40 - 3:36:46] ▶
wanted to talk to me because it was so similar to the stuff the space kids did that he read about but i
[3:36:46 - 3:36:52] ▶
don't know what's i don't know what to believe yeah you know with that so it's just i don't know i'm in
[3:36:52 - 3:36:58] ▶
the same i'm in the same boat as you i don't know what what the motives may be but i think that
[3:36:58 - 3:37:04] ▶
buharic was certainly extremely important in this whole world and the fact that there's never really
[3:37:05 - 3:37:11] ▶
been something like on him that's out there is um exciting for me obviously so yeah i think it'll
[3:37:11 - 3:37:20] ▶
i think it'll raise some eyebrows i think so too raise some eyebrows maybe ruffle some feathers but
[3:37:20 - 3:37:26] ▶
you know you know you're on the right path if you do that but um yeah greg this is an honor man this
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is a lot of fun one of my honestly like i love information dense podcasts especially ones that
[3:37:32 - 3:37:38] ▶
are uncorrelated from other you know i love the the stories you know i love i saw a thing and i was in
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the bed i wasn't you know they put a chip in me like that's it's fascinating but you it's always hard to
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sense make after that like how does this fit into some coherent tapestry of what's actually happening
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yeah i love this interview because you just to me again you know you added this big puzzle piece
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uh that seems to be missing as far as this whole story and obviously begets uh you know a hundred
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more questions but yeah um i really hope everybody checks out the movie and uh thank you for being here
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thank you man i appreciate it awesome
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yeah head to americanalchemymerch.com to grab official american alchemy merch and support the
[3:38:17 - 3:38:32] ▶
show directly and while you're there the cowboy ufot is a fan favorite we always keep in stock
[3:38:32 - 3:38:38] ▶
along with the atomic age design thank you all so much for following and supporting the show
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