Transcript: The Lone Hacker That Found NASA’s Secret UFO Fleet [Gary McKinnon Interview]

You know, if, if, you know, our energy prices dropped from, you know, 50 bucks per kilowatt hour to like 50 cents per kilowatt hour, that would be hugely disruptive.

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It just would.

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I think, um, it's a control mechanism, isn't it?

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And as well, just like water is starting to be food has been for a while.

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Yeah.

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And so, and so, and so, and so, and so.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I think that's really a, I think that's a, that's a great, that's a great thing.

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Yeah.

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It's a bad strategy.

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Yeah.

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That's a, that's a great strategy.

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By the way.

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How do you believe it to be a good market for your country in the US?

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Yeah.

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That's a really good strategy and has a strong control mechanism.

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And anybody who doesn't think that, you know, um, having access to a critical threshold of oil has not determined American foreign policy over the

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last 70 years is nuts.

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Likeamatятно.

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I mean, you see it with Maduro in Venezuela and then, you know, worries about what's going on in Iran.

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Vis-a-V that, you know?

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And so, and like, it's all, it's all, you know, very, very, you know, obviously interconnected.

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I mean, Desert Storm in the early nineties was basically pulled off because Saddam Hussein

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in overtaking Kuwait controlled a fifth of the world's oil supply.

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And that was just unacceptable.

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Yeah.

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And one thing about Venezuela is it wasn't just, um, America's domestic supply.

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It was what foreign powers could get.

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China was about to do a deal with Venezuela.

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That's right.

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I think it would only amount to like one or 2% of China's imports, but it's still something.

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Yeah.

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Still something they're sitting on a lot of oil there and you see this, like these

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crazy sort of game theory dynamics vis-a-vis China taking place with Greenland and other places.

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So it's, it all cuts to these.

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And if you look at like why the U S had to back down off this recent, you know, trade

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agreement deal with, with China and kind of concede some, some things it was due to rare

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earth refinement being basically a monopoly, uh, in China.

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And so, you know, these things are like very real things geopolitically.

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And so if I, I think I agree with you, I think it's very interesting if there's any sort of novel

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exotic physics that's stuck in a compartment in the government, you know, I'd like to know as well.

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And I even think there are probably interesting ways to use it geopolitically.

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Like if you're, if you have it where it's like, it's some sort of carrot for like, okay, maybe you

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don't give it to like, you know, gross dictators or whatever, but it's like a way to like incentivize

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reform or I don't know, but like just keeping it to yourself, that seems wrong. Maybe.

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Yeah. Yeah. But you're right. It's a real hard light to walk, isn't it? How do you have that

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public for you, but not public for other countries? Cause you have spies and.

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Totally. And there, there, there are dual use implications for a lot of things. So like a good

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example would be, you know, uh, controlled fusion or whatever would, you know, is, is the really positive,

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you know, use of, of nuclear fusion, which would allow for, you know, sort of free energy if you have

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over unity. Um, but then, you know, fusion also creates the hydrogen bomb. Right. And so, so like,

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you never know, like if you had some free energy device that you were putting in a compartment or

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something, if that also allowed a kid in his bedroom to blow up the world, like you do have to

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like do some calculations. There's this guy, Ashton Forbes online, who, I don't know if you're

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familiar with him, but yeah, talks about, yeah. MH three 70, the, like these like orbs wrapping around

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the plane and then it zaps it. And he's like, sure that there's like free energy, like, you know,

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being held by the most fascinating thing about that was where's the provenance for that video.

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Yeah. It's never been shown. It's never been. Yeah. We don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, okay.

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So what do you, what do you find next? So, um, there was, uh, a special witness for

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Stephen Greer's disclosure project called Donna hair. And she said that when she worked, she was pretty hard.

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She was a, a NASA launch photographic specialist. I think she had secret clearance, um, cause she'd

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get, you know, very close up photos of all the mechanics and engineering and stuff for launches

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and the launch platform under the launch platform. And she said that she worked in a building eight

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of Johnson space center, JSC. And the, her colleague who worked across the corridor, and this is all

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something he shouldn't have done. Um, cause they chatted, you know, had lunch together or whatever.

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And he, one day he just beckoned her across the corridor and said, come and take a look at this.

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And this is the days of analog photography. And so he's got, um, you know, big like contact

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sheets and slides and they used to be developed under red light and silver nitrate. And he said,

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what do you think this is? And there was a huge white disc on this satellite photo of the earth.

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And she being a photographic expert herself said, oh, it's just a blob of the emulsion,

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you know, the old chemical of the sheets.

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And then he's grinning and he says, uh, dots on the emulsion don't leave round shadows on the ground.

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And there was a round shadow at the right angle, at the correct angle, the sun shining on the trees.

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I saw pine trees. I didn't see a coastline. I don't know where this was, but, um, I looked at him

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and I was pretty startled because I'd worked out there several years and never seen anything like this,

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never heard of anything like this. And, uh, I said, is this a UFO? And he's smiling at me and he says,

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I can't tell you that. So I said, what are you going to do with this information? And he said,

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well, we always have to airbrush them out before we sell them to the public.

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Because they sell all the imagery to like colleges, universities, you know,

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earth shots and magnificent scenes from space. Um, so yeah, his job was to block this stuff out and

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make sure it wouldn't get seen. And they didn't have Photoshop then. So I'm not sure. I think,

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you know, the airbrush term literally comes from a physical airbrush on the emulsion where they just

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blur things. And, uh, you see lots of examples on this of like lunar photography from Clementine

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mission, the lunar orbiter, the LRO, the lunar recorders and orbiter. Um, so I read this story,

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absolutely fascinated. You know, he was this highly qualified woman. She'd worked for a long time,

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NASA and I think the air force previously to that. And, um, and did she say disc, she said flying

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saucer. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. She, and she says, so that shape, the circular shape. Yeah. And the shadow.

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Okay. Wow. And, um, I was already in Jason Johnson space center at the time.

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So I thought building eight. Okay. I wonder if that's still running. Cause she worked there in,

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I think the late eighties or the early nineties. So you're in the Johnson space center files on your PC.

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Yeah. I was already there when I read that. Okay. Yeah. So I thought I've got to have a look.

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Yeah. I've got to have a look. And I thought, how the hell do I find building eight?

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But luckily windows has, um, you can do network commands in a console rather than a GUI of the mouse.

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And you can type it like net stat network status tells you all the people connected to the machine.

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And there's other commands whereby NASA are great auditors of their system. So they have these special

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commands for auditing where you see the machine, the PC, the number, the serial number, the date,

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when it was last maintained, all stuff like that, and the building it's in. So I ran those commands that

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produced a list and I stripped out, I think it was about 1500 machines or maybe 150 machines. But, um,

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once I stripped out the building eight machines, uh, there was only like a dozen maybe. And, uh,

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I ran the blank password script on them. And I think about half of them were accessible.

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And the first one I looked at was the one where I saw the picture and it was strange. It was, um,

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I did a lot of network support before that as well. And most users' desktops are covering

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in stuff, short cards, emails, like, uh, electronic post-it notes. And, uh, these were very bare desktops.

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All the hands, like, uh, two folders, raw and process, and maybe a couple of other shortcuts.

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Um, and so I thought, I've got to look at this. It's gotta be images. It's where she said it was.

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It looks like images. It says raw, it says processed. And, uh, I double clicked into the folders and it's

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a proprietary NASA image format that I can't run on my desk, not a JPEG, not a PNG. Um, so what I had

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to do was basically, there was a, what was it called? There was, uh, there was, uh,

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there was, I basically had to run NASA software. I had to double click on the desktop because my

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hacking method, although I'd get in there with a blank password, which was CLI command line.

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Um, once I was in there, I was using remotely anywhere. I think it still exists. It's like PC

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anywhere. It's like you're sitting at the desktop. You can see the screen on your screen.

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Um, so I double clicked this, but it was very, very slow. I was on a 56 K dial up,

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which was, um, to give some idea of the speed. It was, if you download an MP3 music file now,

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you've got it in a few seconds. Then it was five minutes per megabyte. And a song might be three

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megabytes and 50 minutes for one song. No one would even accept that now. So I double clicked this. It

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was taking ages. So I canceled it. I turned down my remote graphical remote control thing into like

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eight bit color, then four bit color. Eventually I think, yeah, I think four bit color or two bit

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color. It was basically four or five different colors. So it was a shitty image. And, um, but it

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came on the screen, like, you know, almost like, well, I think it was a few lines at times. It was coming in

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blocks and I'm looking and there's like blackness. Then there's like slowly a hemisphere started

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appearing and I'm thinking, fuck, that's a planet. What the hell? This could be what she said.

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Then the hemisphere comes into view and it's very blocky, but it's kind of blue and white. So I'm

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thinking, well, it must be earth. And then suddenly there's a big straight kind of silvery line

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that is coming down. Then that's, I guess what they now call a tic-tac, but it's what we used to

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call cigar shaped object. And this thing was admittedly as low resolution is coming down slowly,

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but this thing looked very kind of smooth on the outside. There was no lines, whether we'd be like

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plates fixed or screws and bolts and stuff. And, uh, I was just thinking, my God, this is my

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eureka moment. Confirmed Donahair story. Not that Donahair story needs confirming. Um, yeah,

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and it got to, I got the whole ship, you know, in view, and then it started to go below that where

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I would see the rest of the, the, um, the sphere of the earth. I assume it was the earth. And, um,

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it was just amazing. The only manmade, possibly manmade thing that was there was like geodesic domes,

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like radar stations, uh, one atop, below and both sides.

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And I thought, well, that's strange. It's kind of manmade looking, but not manmade looking.

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And then I've got graphical remote control. I see the mouse move someone else, the person,

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someone else is at the computer themselves and they're moving the mouse. They right clicked on

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the local area network icon, you know, right next to your clock on the bottom, right of your windows

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taskbar disconnect and boom, that was it gone. I was cut out and I'm sitting there like waiting.

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Oh my God.

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Baiting breath in my Eureka moment. Come on, come on, come on.

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Oh my God. Anything else on the cigar. So smooth. No, but doesn't seem like rivets or seams.

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It's hovering above the earth. Do you notice anything else?

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No, just like a very smooth cylinder. The geodesic domes.

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And so the little dome dome on top dome on bottom. Yeah. And either end. Yeah. And on either end.

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Yeah. Or that could just be the kind of cigar. Sure. To like the closure of the cylinder. Sure.

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Sure. Sure. Sure. I suppose. Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. So interesting. And did you ever speak with,

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you know, yourself or through intermediaries with Donna hair? Oh yeah. And did she say that's the disc

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that I saw? And I just, cause I think of disc with her and then cigar tic tac with you.

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Yeah. She saw that one photo of disc, but she also spoke to, um,

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Okay. So these are probably different images. You're just confirming that the same building

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probably has a whole lot of images that they're sitting on. Yeah. Even though it might be 10 or 20

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years later, apparently this is still the place where there's images. Yeah. Yeah. UFOs or exotic craft.

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And they're being airbrushed out. It is proof that at least, I mean, it's really interesting that you

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have a whistleblower come out with nobody has any evidence for her claims at this point. And she says,

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you know, I, this is where we process the images. I was shown this image, building eight,

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Johnson space center, you independently, you know, halfway across the world, hack into Johnson space

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center, look at building eight. And then one of the first things that pops up on your screen

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is an image of a UFO hovering above the earth, which is clearly not the exact same UFO, but it's,

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you know, it's definitely exotic. It's nothing, you know, it wasn't a rocket. It wasn't ISS. It

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wasn't like a space lab or, well, it doesn't sound like a satellite to me, a cigar, like rotating around

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the, there's no antenna either. There's nothing, no, like telemetry or sensor looking stuff.

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Doesn't yeah. Yeah. That is wild. I mean, and then also now we have the, uh, lucky hindsight,

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you know, in, in, in 2026 of commander David Fravor's experience of 2004, just a few years later,

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uh, off the coast of San Diego, where he sees a tic tac object and they have, you know,

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apparently radar. We've seen the FLIR imaging, the thermal imaging of this thing. It's for everyone

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to see the Pentagon has verified that that's real. All four of us, cause we were an F-18F. So we had

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pilots and WIZO in the backseat, looked down a small, saw a white tic tac object with a longitudinal

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axis pointing north, south and moving very abruptly over the water, like a ping pong ball.

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It rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wingman roughly 8,000 feet

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above us lost contact also. And then you have a lot of other witnesses. You have his co-pilot,

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you have another plane and two pilots in that plane. You have, you know, a whole lot, you have the,

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obviously radar, some guys on the ship. Exactly. So are you the first,

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like other, I mean, there, I think, I believe there's some other tic tac and cigar, like there's,

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you know, I think flying there, there are air force documents from the late forties,

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um, that describe, uh, uh, flying butane tanks. I don't know if you know about this.

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I haven't heard it. Yeah. David Grush, you, famous UFO whistleblower has talked about this.

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And then in Robert Hastings, great book, UFOs and nukes, which talks about UFOs showing up at nuclear

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installations all over the world, including in the UK, actually at Rendlesham forest in 1980,

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really famous case. Uh, he talks about, um, tic tacs or cigar shaped objects often being sort

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of like a mothership and saucers flying out of the, the tic tacs. Yeah. I think that was it mail,

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maelstrom AFP in America as well. Similar thing happened. Yeah. Like definitely a mothership

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kind of configuration. Yeah. No, touch hunt has happened at Malmstrom actually. So it's definitely

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likely that in certain cases, some sort of tick because a tic tac or cigar is one of the most

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common descriptions people have. There's a case we were just talking earlier, you know, uh, thank you,

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James Fox, great documentarian for the intro to Gary. It's great guy. And we were saying that he sort of

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single handedly resuscitated this obscure Brazilian UFO crash in 1996, the Virginia case. And there's a

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guy, Carlos de Sousa, who's a ultralight pilot geography teacher who literally saw the crash.

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And he felt the material just like in Roswell with Jesse Marcel, it feels the material and it's,

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it feels like, uh, you know, uh, memory metal. I could see quite a few pieces of debris

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on the ground and I picked them up and it was kind of curved. And then I was surprised to see how

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light it was. So I said, I'll keep it. And so I crunched it up. And so I made this kind of movement,

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you know, to put it in my pocket. And what happened was this foil or this sheet regained its shape.

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So I thought, what is this? I was completely floored. Yeah, it sprung back into its original shape.

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And guess what the shape of the craft was that he saw that crash. Right. So cigar tic tac. Yeah.

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So yeah, lots of, uh, synchronicities there. What was your first instinct when you saw it?

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How, how did you feel and what did you think? You know, often I think like if you're taking

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like a multiple choice test, it's like your first instincts often, right. You know,

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then you second guess yourself. So do you, did you have like a, an on the spot interpretation?

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I'm not an aeronautics expert or a space vehicle expert, but to me, you know, I, I watched space

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stuff with interest since I was a kid and it wasn't your normal space stuff. So I knew that.

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Um, but there wasn't, you know, I didn't know if it was extra terrestrial. Yeah, I still don't,

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obviously, you know, it could be something manmade, but it was definitely something secret

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because it was nothing like, like we already have up there. Dan, did you, uh, have any sort of like

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instinct of, I mean, the obvious question is like, is it ours or is it theirs? Yeah.

[0:39:14 - 0:39:19] ▶

Yeah. You know, it's a big distinction. Well, I think because of Donna hair story,

[0:39:19 - 0:39:23] ▶

my instinct was that, yeah, it was alien because that's what she described. She described unknown

[0:39:24 - 0:39:29] ▶

things in high res NASA satellite imagery that they had to airbrush out because I don't know,

[0:39:29 - 0:39:34] ▶

maybe they thought it would panic the public or they had no explanation for it.

[0:39:34 - 0:39:38] ▶

And what does she say as far as why they airbrushed it out and didn't just admit, you know,

[0:39:38 - 0:39:44] ▶

yeah, we're surrounded by these cool exotic objects. Yeah. We shared a few emails. She's

[0:39:44 - 0:39:49] ▶

passed now, unfortunately God bless her soul. Um, and we had one, I think it was like two and a half

[0:39:49 - 0:39:54] ▶

hour, three hour phone conversation. And, um, she thinks like, just like a lot of us do that a lot

[0:39:54 - 0:40:02] ▶

has been hidden. Uh, it's been hidden for reasons of control. Um, but it's weird when you try and

[0:40:02 - 0:40:09] ▶

extrapolate from this, you think, well, wouldn't you use technology like that in a war? If you had

[0:40:09 - 0:40:14] ▶

that, would you use it openly to your advantage or to, to me, that tells me that it's still unknown

[0:40:14 - 0:40:21] ▶

even to the people with the highest authority on that subject. I think that's right. If it's not

[0:40:21 - 0:40:25] ▶

well known and it's flying with impunity over our nuclear sites and in sensitive airspace and in space,

[0:40:25 - 0:40:32] ▶

next to, you know, our recon satellites and stuff, you would be extremely embarrassed to,

[0:40:32 - 0:40:37] ▶

you wouldn't be able to admit, you know, you know, but if, but if you did know what was going on,

[0:40:37 - 0:40:42] ▶

you would just tell the public, yeah, we not only do we know what's going on, but then you try to signal

[0:40:42 - 0:40:46] ▶

that, you know, what's going on and you've like reverse engineered it because you'd want to,

[0:40:46 - 0:40:50] ▶

you know, kind of soften, you know, the enemy sort of thing. And so I actually think some of modern

[0:40:50 - 0:40:56] ▶

disclosure might be, you know, Intel tactics to try to like, say that we know more than we do,

[0:40:56 - 0:41:03] ▶

but also recruit on the topic because like, actually they don't really know what's going on.

[0:41:03 - 0:41:08] ▶

Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. Embarrassment is a huge factor. Yeah.

[0:41:08 - 0:41:12] ▶

Um, even just my, my hacking wasn't embarrassment. So if they're embarrassed about something like that,

[0:41:12 - 0:41:16] ▶

can you imagine? Yeah. I mean, it's just indeterminable. It's hugely different.

[0:41:16 - 0:41:21] ▶

Um, and also fear, cause I mean, why, you know, are they here? Yeah. What are they doing? Why are

[0:41:21 - 0:41:28] ▶

the interests in nuclear missiles? Is it for protection of us? Is it that we destabilize

[0:41:28 - 0:41:33] ▶

some kind of interdimensional thing or, cause you know, we're, we're with atoms.

[0:41:33 - 0:41:38] ▶

Did you get the, yeah, right. We are, we're doing a lot genetics, atoms, biowarfare. So, so you,

[0:41:38 - 0:41:46] ▶

when you saw this thing, did you get the sense that it was moving in a predictable orbit? I mean,

[0:41:46 - 0:41:52] ▶

it's, it's a static image, so you have no way of knowing, but did you get the sense that it was

[0:41:52 - 0:41:56] ▶

like moving in a, in an orbit or that it was like just kind of maneuvering around or.

[0:41:56 - 0:42:02] ▶

Well, I've seen photos of the low earth orbit stuff. Um, and this looked to be maybe, I mean,

[0:42:02 - 0:42:09] ▶

I have no idea of the scale of this thing. Um, but with the hemisphere, it was way beyond low

[0:42:09 - 0:42:17] ▶

earth orbit. Okay. But I don't know. I mean, you know, there's a, actually a weeky leaks, uh,

[0:42:17 - 0:42:23] ▶

email with John Podesta on it. That's been deleted from the internet, but still, if

[0:42:24 - 0:42:28] ▶

you go on the way back machine, I think, I think there's some like Reddit forums that discuss this

[0:42:29 - 0:42:33] ▶

definitely a real email. And he is talking with, uh, kind of a contractor from some aerospace

[0:42:34 - 0:42:41] ▶

corporation, I think in California. And he mentions the, the, the, the contractor, I think the guy's

[0:42:41 - 0:42:47] ▶

name is Bob fish said they're having lunch together. And this is him recalling it in the email and fish

[0:42:47 - 0:42:55] ▶

says, uh, yeah, we spotted some, uh, fast walkers today. And, um, they were, I think this was in

[0:42:55 - 0:43:01] ▶

specific reference to the DSP, the, uh, defense support program, which I think is this very deep

[0:43:01 - 0:43:08] ▶

geo stationary kind of recon thing that the air force does. This was the air force at the time,

[0:43:08 - 0:43:15] ▶

because now space force would do it, you know, post 2019. But I wonder if you saw a fast walker,

[0:43:15 - 0:43:22] ▶

because also if you, um, uh, uh, uh, try to FOIA fast walkers, which John Greenwald did,

[0:43:22 - 0:43:29] ▶

uh, the space force gets back and says, we, you know, clearly there are some records, but we can't,

[0:43:29 - 0:43:35] ▶

we can't talk about them. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's CIA for you to do with fast walkers as well.

[0:43:35 - 0:43:40] ▶

Maybe, maybe, yeah, it might be the CIA actually might not even be space for it. I might be getting

[0:43:40 - 0:43:44] ▶

that wrong, but yeah. Interesting. So, but I guess one question would be like, was it lateral to the,

[0:43:44 - 0:43:52] ▶

or like, was it moving? Yeah. Lateral to the earth. Cause I think it wouldn't make sense to me

[0:43:52 - 0:43:58] ▶

if it was like vertical to the earth. Like if the, if the butt was facing the earth, I'd be like,

[0:43:58 - 0:44:04] ▶

that doesn't feel like an orbit, like it's in a predictable orbit. You know what I mean? It was

[0:44:04 - 0:44:08] ▶

definitely, it was lateral to the earth. It was at 90. Yeah. So that, yeah, it is, it's horizontal.

[0:44:08 - 0:44:15] ▶

Horizontal. I wasn't seeing it end on. So you're right. It was in a position to be rotating around

[0:44:16 - 0:44:20] ▶

possibly in orbit traveling past or just traveling past. Yeah. Yeah. Or yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it wouldn't

[0:44:20 - 0:44:27] ▶

be, it wasn't like going directly at the earth. It was like moving laterally somewhat. Okay. So interesting.

[0:44:27 - 0:44:34] ▶

Any other detail, I guess you could, you don't, you don't know color, right? Because it's

[0:44:35 - 0:44:39] ▶

Silvery white. I mean, it was very, I was in like, I think two bit color, okay. But, or maybe four bit,

[0:44:39 - 0:44:45] ▶

but yeah, it was very kind of blocky and there's definitely white, silvery white.

[0:44:45 - 0:44:50] ▶

Yeah. And did you see any sort of, I guess, I don't know how you'd see a shadow, but like,

[0:44:50 - 0:44:56] ▶

did you see any sort of, no, cause it's so far out from earth. Yeah. Interesting. What do you think

[0:44:56 - 0:45:03] ▶

photographed it? Very good question. Yeah. Now, yeah. So this takes me to, um,

[0:45:04 - 0:45:10] ▶

I referenced the disclosure project a lot, cause that was the root of a lot of my

[0:45:11 - 0:45:15] ▶

locations and research at the time. Yeah. And, um, one of their witnesses, I forget his name. He was DIA

[0:45:15 - 0:45:23] ▶

and he got a lot of the information to do with the satellites. And he, he, he was the one that said

[0:45:23 - 0:45:30] ▶

most of these satellites are actually pointed out. And they're not like low earth orbit communication

[0:45:30 - 0:45:36] ▶

satellites. So I assume if you've got very far out satellites looking outwards, you can also rotate

[0:45:36 - 0:45:41] ▶

them and look inwards. So that's the only thing I could think of. Okay. So that is fascinating. You see that.

[0:45:41 - 0:45:48] ▶

How are you feeling when you see that? Oh man, I was ready to inform the press.

[0:45:48 - 0:45:53] ▶

Tell the world, oh my God, like it's true. And NASA knows and NASA has no for ages. And Donahe was right.

[0:45:54 - 0:45:59] ▶

And for them, boom, disconnected as it's loading. Yeah. So it hasn't even fully loaded. I saw like

[0:45:59 - 0:46:07] ▶

just under the bottom half of the ship. Yeah. And, um, yeah, then disconnect.

[0:46:07 - 0:46:12] ▶

And you have no reason to lie about this. You've never made any money off of this. Right. And if

[0:46:12 - 0:46:18] ▶

anything, you were kind of, you put on a witch trial, like there's sort of this witch hunt for like

[0:46:18 - 0:46:25] ▶

20 years where this like, you know, blanket extradition was attempted to be applied to you

[0:46:25 - 0:46:30] ▶

where, uh, they wanted to put you in prison for 60 years. So 70 for 70 years. Mr. McKinnon is accused

[0:46:30 - 0:46:37] ▶

of serious crimes. On his visit to the white house, David Cameron spoke to president Obama about the

[0:46:37 - 0:46:42] ▶

case and both agreed they could find an appropriate solution. We talked about the case of computer hacker

[0:46:42 - 0:46:48] ▶

Gary McKinnon on which the prime minister has expressed very clear views. You said you would

[0:46:48 - 0:46:51] ▶

work together to find a solution. So have you found one? Well, on Mr. McKinnon, we have proceeded through

[0:46:51 - 0:46:59] ▶

all the, uh, the processes, uh, required under our extradition agreements. Uh, it is now in the hands

[0:46:59 - 0:47:10] ▶

of the British legal system. Uh, we have confidence, uh, in, uh, the British legal system coming to a,

[0:47:10 - 0:47:18] ▶

a just conclusion. Uh, and so we await resolution and, uh, we'll be respectful of that process.

[0:47:18 - 0:47:25] ▶

Well, we had talks and they said, look, if we just come along, don't fight it. You do between

[0:47:25 - 0:47:32] ▶

eight and 20. Like, that's a good deal. No, thank you. I'll fight it. Um, and yeah,

[0:47:32 - 0:47:38] ▶

and that was actually horrible. It was very depressing. Um, I found out my own government,

[0:47:38 - 0:47:43] ▶

because governments are made up of individuals and individuals have ties to other individuals

[0:47:43 - 0:47:47] ▶

in the DOJ and the CPS. Some of them wanted me gone too, uh, just as a favor to the U S not

[0:47:47 - 0:47:53] ▶

because of anything to do with right or wrong or truth or justice, just as a favor political porn.

[0:47:53 - 0:47:58] ▶

Um, so that was awful, but not just for me, my family, you know, your mom and dad. And it's like,

[0:47:59 - 0:48:03] ▶

Oh, weren't there some allegations of a meeting that was had at the American embassy out here where it

[0:48:03 - 0:48:10] ▶

was like, we want his head or something like it was very extreme language used.

[0:48:10 - 0:48:14] ▶

Yeah. Ed Gibson, who was attached to the U S embassy in London at the time met with my lawyer

[0:48:14 - 0:48:19] ▶

and he said, we want to see him fry electric chair reference.

[0:48:20 - 0:48:23] ▶

Jesus Christ. Well, she told me that Karen, amazing lawyer, stuck with us all through this

[0:48:23 - 0:48:29] ▶

and fought and fought and fought. Yeah. I was just, I mean, we already knew they played dirt.

[0:48:29 - 0:48:33] ▶

Cause I mean, people have to realize, you know, politics, isn't about people being safe and well

[0:48:33 - 0:48:39] ▶

looked after us about the state further, it's of the state and its objectives and the protectors,

[0:48:39 - 0:48:45] ▶

the protection of your state to foreign states. So.

[0:48:45 - 0:48:48] ▶

Yeah, no, that is definitely the, the lay of the land as is national security. And, uh, you know,

[0:48:48 - 0:48:55] ▶

I just find it, I find it interesting that, okay, you have guys like Snowden and Assange where,

[0:48:55 - 0:49:01] ▶

wherever you lie with them, which like, whether you think they're courageous and ideological in,

[0:49:02 - 0:49:08] ▶

in a way that really, you know, exposed all sorts of, you know, uh, issues with the Intel world and

[0:49:08 - 0:49:15] ▶

mass surveillance and stuff. Um, or whether you think they put like, you know, Americans abroad

[0:49:15 - 0:49:22] ▶

in danger or whatever, which I, I think there are like, there is some nuance there. Like,

[0:49:22 - 0:49:25] ▶

I do think some people in the Intel world who talk about this say, well, there, there's some real,

[0:49:25 - 0:49:30] ▶

like bad effects around, around the stuff. Yeah. But in Assange's defense, he had lots

[0:49:30 - 0:49:34] ▶

of phone calls before releasing that information. So he actually agreed it with people in the state

[0:49:34 - 0:49:38] ▶

department. I didn't know that that's yeah. Well, there you go. Yeah. But, but, but I was just

[0:49:38 - 0:49:43] ▶

getting to the point of whatever you think of those cases, like maybe there's some, you know, like, uh,

[0:49:43 - 0:49:49] ▶

more gray area or debate to be had or whatever. In your case, you're just, you're smoking weed in your

[0:49:49 - 0:49:55] ▶

girlfriend's aunt's little flat and it's like 4am and you're just like a dude who's interested in

[0:49:55 - 0:50:03] ▶

UFOs since you were a child and you want to figure it out. And so I, it's just like, to me, if it's

[0:50:03 - 0:50:10] ▶

the U S like, get your shit together. It's the issue that should be your, you should be, you know,

[0:50:10 - 0:50:15] ▶

it's almost like they might've, uh, lashed out so much at you because they were embarrassed. I mean,

[0:50:15 - 0:50:20] ▶

that you literally like it's, it's on you. It's not on this like poor English citizen who has no

[0:50:20 - 0:50:28] ▶

clearly, like, I don't, I don't think you're like particularly ideologically set in like destroying

[0:50:28 - 0:50:32] ▶

America, you know, it's Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, we'll, we'll get to that kind

[0:50:32 - 0:50:40] ▶

of more meta conversation, but you also found some other pretty crazy things, uh, while you were,

[0:50:40 - 0:50:46] ▶

while you were searching in your, uh, girlfriend's aunt's flat. And so, yeah, what else did you,

[0:50:46 - 0:50:52] ▶

what else did you find besides this tic tac? I think, um, I was on a Navy system at the time.

[0:50:52 - 0:50:58] ▶

I can't remember cloud of weed, et cetera, but, um, there was a spreadsheet Excel spreadsheet.

[0:50:58 - 0:51:04] ▶

And it was called cause I was saying earlier about my search terms. It was UFOs, ET, terrestrial,

[0:51:04 - 0:51:10] ▶

anything spacecraft, anything I could think of, which probably wouldn't be in the, in the title of the

[0:51:10 - 0:51:15] ▶

document, but, um, this spreadsheet was titled non terrestrial officers. So not on the earth,

[0:51:15 - 0:51:22] ▶

which isn't necessarily alien. It could just mean space based Marines or, you know, secret space force.

[0:51:23 - 0:51:30] ▶

Um, and that was incredible. It had ship names. It had, um, material, the material, the military

[0:51:30 - 0:51:37] ▶

spelling, not material. Um, and it was transfers of weird chemicals like malebdenum and other weird

[0:51:37 - 0:51:46] ▶

things that are hard to pronounce, uh, ship to ship transfers and fleet to fleet transfers. And at the

[0:51:46 - 0:51:52] ▶

time I looked up the ship names thinking us Navy must be boats, nothing, absolutely nothing.

[0:51:52 - 0:51:59] ▶

What do you remember that names of the people?

[0:51:59 - 0:52:01] ▶

No, I remember, I don't remember any of the names of the people, but the, there were long lists,

[0:52:01 - 0:52:06] ▶

you know, I think it was just initial surname. I don't think there were first names. Um, and the

[0:52:06 - 0:52:12] ▶

ship names I was expecting like USS Lincoln or, you know, Navy ships, but there was none of that.

[0:52:12 - 0:52:18] ▶

Everything I, and it wasn't Google at the time. I think it was Alta Vista, the biggest search engine

[0:52:18 - 0:52:23] ▶

at the time. Um, none, none of it was sea going vessels.

[0:52:23 - 0:52:28] ▶

So you see a list of non-terrestrial officers, and then you also see chemicals be, what are the

[0:52:28 - 0:52:35] ▶

names of these chemicals?

[0:52:35 - 0:52:36] ▶

Yeah. Uh, malebdenum, um, barium, something was in there. They were very exotic.

[0:52:36 - 0:52:42] ▶

So what does that imply?

[0:52:44 - 0:52:47] ▶

Do you remember the exact, so what is, what is malebdenum? Have you looked up what the uses are of this?

[0:52:47 - 0:52:51] ▶

Yeah. I remember malebdenum, um, they're very exotic. They used in like, uh, magnetics, um,

[0:52:51 - 0:53:02] ▶

lots of very kind of exotic industrial processes. A lot, a lot to do with metal hardening, if I

[0:53:04 - 0:53:10] ▶

remember right. Like metallurgy. Um, like you make an alloy and it makes it stronger than the original

[0:53:10 - 0:53:15] ▶

two components. So again, that time now, years later with the research, you've done the people

[0:53:15 - 0:53:23] ▶

you've interviewed, it's all making more sense, especially when, when we come to the biofield

[0:53:23 - 0:53:28] ▶

brown stuff and dielectrics. Yeah. We'll get to that.

[0:53:28 - 0:53:32] ▶

And like nano deposition of thin layer materials.

[0:53:32 - 0:53:35] ▶

Yes. Yeah. Thinly layered, thinner than, uh, you know, a human hair or whatever. Micron layered.

[0:53:35 - 0:53:41] ▶

This one sample is engineered in layers thinner than microns through a process unknown on earth.

[0:53:41 - 0:53:49] ▶

And for a purpose, we can only guess. Multi layered bismuth and magnesium sample. Bismuth

[0:53:49 - 0:53:55] ▶

layers less than a human hair supposedly picked up in the crash retrieval of an advanced aerospace

[0:53:55 - 0:54:02] ▶

vehicle. Nowhere could we find any evidence that anybody ever made one of these. Okay. This is

[0:54:02 - 0:54:08] ▶

fascinating though. So you see a list of how many non-terrestrial officers. Oh man. Um,

[0:54:08 - 0:54:14] ▶

so my screen at the time was the old like 800 by 600 monitors. I think I might have a 1024 by 768

[0:54:15 - 0:54:24] ▶

resolution at the time. So your typical Excel spreadsheet without zooming in when you just

[0:54:24 - 0:54:29] ▶

load it up was probably 24 lines. And I think there was about one and a half or two pages. So maybe like

[0:54:29 - 0:54:36] ▶

30, 40 names. You don't remember any of the last names. No, sorry. You're killing me.

[0:54:36 - 0:54:43] ▶

I'm kidding. Yeah. Yeah. I gotta give us a little bread crumb. Yeah. Yeah. This is one of the main

[0:54:43 - 0:54:48] ▶

like criticisms of me. Why didn't you take a bloody screenshot? Just alt print screen, alt print. But

[0:54:48 - 0:54:54] ▶

I did actually, I downloaded that Excel spreadsheet. Uh huh. And when I got arrested, all my data was taken

[0:54:54 - 0:55:01] ▶

to ONI office of Naval intelligence. So they still have my hard drives. I've tried to get them back

[0:55:01 - 0:55:07] ▶

for years. And they said, no, it's still a long going investigation. You can't touch it.

[0:55:07 - 0:55:11] ▶

Office of Naval intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the U S I think it's 1882.

[0:55:11 - 0:55:17] ▶

And it's often deeply implicated in UFOs 1882 1882. So the national security act, which created the CIA

[0:55:18 - 0:55:26] ▶

was 1947. And, um, you know, and then you had the OSS before that, which was kind of this wartime

[0:55:27 - 0:55:33] ▶

foreign intelligence effort. Yeah. But no office of Naval intelligence well predates all of that. And you had

[0:55:33 - 0:55:40] ▶

Thomas Townsend Brown doing a lot of spooky science work for the Navy. Yeah. And, uh, yeah. And then you

[0:55:40 - 0:55:47] ▶

have this guy, Harold Malmgren, who kind of ended up giving me kind of a turned into kind of a deathbed

[0:55:47 - 0:55:53] ▶

confession at the end of his life. And it, uh, it was wild. I mean, he was like the office of Naval

[0:55:53 - 0:56:00] ▶

intelligence knows the most about this issue. And once you go in that door, the door shuts and you

[0:56:00 - 0:56:05] ▶

can't get let out. But he said, one of the Naval intelligence

[0:56:05 - 0:56:10] ▶

are going to be around asking you questions about your study.

[0:56:11 - 0:56:16] ▶

They really got curious. And if they talk to you for any length of time, they'll say,

[0:56:18 - 0:56:22] ▶

holy shit, you really know a lot. They're going to offer you special access.

[0:56:22 - 0:56:27] ▶

It's how they operate. I said, what does that mean? You'll open the doors.

[0:56:28 - 0:56:32] ▶

You'll have full entry. The doors will shut and you'll be no exit the rest of your life.

[0:56:32 - 0:56:38] ▶

That is a closed system. And he kind of implied that they approached him in certain cases.

[0:56:40 - 0:56:45] ▶

And because of the fact that it was this closed system, he didn't want to engage.

[0:56:46 - 0:56:50] ▶

Wow. So very interesting. So, so they end up with your stuff.

[0:56:50 - 0:56:54] ▶

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. They were, um, when the British police at the time was the NHTCU,

[0:56:54 - 0:57:01] ▶

national high tech crime unit in the UK. Um, at first they said to me, oh, you'll get six months.

[0:57:01 - 0:57:06] ▶

It's the computer misuse act, 1995 in Britain, six months community service, no time. And then

[0:57:06 - 0:57:13] ▶

they went to America and visited O and I and other top brass. And when they came back, the tone had

[0:57:13 - 0:57:20] ▶

totally changed. That was just really serious. Um, which of course eventually turned into facing 70

[0:57:20 - 0:57:26] ▶

years and present. So it was a huge like using a hammer to crack a nut. It was, you know, David

[0:57:26 - 0:57:32] ▶

and Goliath, the whole thing. Yeah. So wild. Uh, yeah. Well, it's just, like you said earlier,

[0:57:32 - 0:57:38] ▶

I was just a guy, normal guy, interesting UFOs happen to have some IT skills, a little bit of

[0:57:38 - 0:57:43] ▶

hacking, black passwords, nothing genius level. And then next thing, you know, it just blows up.

[0:57:43 - 0:57:49] ▶

I try to make an example of you. So, so, so when you think about those chemicals and you know,

[0:57:49 - 0:57:54] ▶

we're, we'll get into our mutual interest in Thomas Townsend Brown and anti-gravity experiments.

[0:57:54 - 0:57:59] ▶

So you think that they could have been used to create special alloys or what you might call

[0:58:01 - 0:58:07] ▶

meta materials and UFO world, uh, which allow for greater thrust in these anti-gravity experiments. Like

[0:58:07 - 0:58:14] ▶

one thing that is true about the Bifield Brown effect and this anti-gravity experiment is that

[0:58:14 - 0:58:20] ▶

if you use an insulator in the middle, that is considered a high K dielectric, which means it stores

[0:58:20 - 0:58:26] ▶

and discharges easily a lot of electromagnetism, a lot of, you know, electricity, it stores electric

[0:58:26 - 0:58:32] ▶

fields in it specifically. Um, the, the thrust you see in the experiment is, is much greater from the,

[0:58:32 - 0:58:39] ▶

the negative electrode to the positive electrode. So do you think that,

[0:58:39 - 0:58:42] ▶

you know, I guess barium is actually in Townsend Brown's documents. Like he talks about it all the

[0:58:42 - 0:58:48] ▶

time. Yeah.

[0:58:48 - 0:58:50] ▶

Yeah. So, and then what was the other, I can never pronounce it.

[0:58:50 - 0:58:54] ▶

Malebdenum.

[0:58:54 - 0:58:55] ▶

Malebdenum. And, and do you, and you looked into that and that's for like creating alloys.

[0:58:55 - 0:59:00] ▶

Yeah. I think it's a, a strengthening alloys, but a long time since I looked into it,

[0:59:00 - 0:59:05] ▶

but I think that's what it was. It was like a strengthening alloy.

[0:59:05 - 0:59:08] ▶

Any other chemicals?

[0:59:08 - 0:59:09] ▶

It might've even had a shielding. Um, not gravitational shielding, but like, uh,

[0:59:09 - 0:59:15] ▶

radiation shielding or some kind of, I think maybe similar to lead, but I'm not a physicist.

[0:59:15 - 0:59:19] ▶

So don't quote me.

[0:59:19 - 0:59:21] ▶

But it's super interesting if it's used on like current space vehicles, like people

[0:59:21 - 0:59:25] ▶

should go out and look that up because if it is, you know, that might be a, an interesting lead.

[0:59:25 - 0:59:29] ▶

Do some patent searches.

[0:59:29 - 0:59:30] ▶

Yeah. Any other chemicals?

[0:59:30 - 0:59:32] ▶

Malebdenum and barium, strontium.

[0:59:35 - 0:59:38] ▶

Strontium.

[0:59:38 - 0:59:40] ▶

Yeah. Strontium.

[0:59:40 - 0:59:41] ▶

And strontium is also mentioned in Brown stuff, I believe, or.

[0:59:41 - 0:59:45] ▶

I can't remember any others.

[0:59:45 - 0:59:46] ▶

Okay. And, but isn't strong strontium, I believe is one of Gary Nolan's pieces that he has at the,

[0:59:46 - 0:59:53] ▶

you know, Stanford lab that he thinks might be UFO meta materials that come from crashes.

[0:59:53 - 0:59:59] ▶

I believe has strontium in it.

[0:59:59 - 1:00:00] ▶

Yeah. And it's a good dielectric. Um, I forget it's K constant, but I know it's high.

[1:00:00 - 1:00:05] ▶

So it's also a high K dielectric.

[1:00:05 - 1:00:07] ▶

Yeah.

[1:00:07 - 1:00:08] ▶

This is crazy. So you have a list of non-terrestrial officers.

[1:00:08 - 1:00:14] ▶

Yeah. Yeah. So.

[1:00:14 - 1:00:15] ▶

And then what is the fleet to fleet thing mean?

[1:00:16 - 1:00:18] ▶

This was fleet to fleet transfers. Cause it was a, it was one spreadsheet, but it had taps.

[1:00:18 - 1:00:23] ▶

So there was the officers names.

[1:00:24 - 1:00:25] ▶

There was ship names and there was material, a material transfer.

[1:00:26 - 1:00:32] ▶

Do you remember the ship names?

[1:00:32 - 1:00:35] ▶

No.

[1:00:35 - 1:00:35] ▶

Okay.

[1:00:36 - 1:00:37] ▶

But what, okay. What, when you're looking at this, what is your instinct as to like,

[1:00:37 - 1:00:42] ▶

cause there are all sorts of wild interpretations people have, you know, people make up the secret

[1:00:42 - 1:00:47] ▶

space program, solar ward and stuff. What was your, you're in the moment.

[1:00:47 - 1:00:50] ▶

What are you thinking when you see this?

[1:00:51 - 1:00:52] ▶

Well, that's exactly where I was. I imagine you were me, UFO guy, you know, quite an active interest.

[1:00:52 - 1:00:59] ▶

Um, and then finding this. And so obviously that's where my first thoughts go. So I'm thinking

[1:01:00 - 1:01:05] ▶

non-terrestrial officers, that's the baseline for the whole document. So they're not on earth, but I was

[1:01:06 - 1:01:11] ▶

thinking, well, they could be, they're probably, it's probably people. They're not non-terrestrial

[1:01:11 - 1:01:18] ▶

because they're not human. They're non-terrestrial because it's non-Earth based. So it's out in space.

[1:01:18 - 1:01:22] ▶

So space force was my first thought. It's gotta be a space force, uh, obviously secret.

[1:01:22 - 1:01:29] ▶

Um, and then with the chemicals and stuff and the ship names then, and fleet to fleet transfers.

[1:01:30 - 1:01:37] ▶

There was more than one ship and then exotic materials. And so, you know, it's kind of two

[1:01:37 - 1:01:45] ▶

plus two equals four. Yeah. You know, obviously obviously it's to do with my mindset. That's

[1:01:45 - 1:01:49] ▶

what I was looking for. So that's how I interpreted. Well, you know what I would do if I was office of

[1:01:49 - 1:01:54] ▶

naval intelligence and I hated Gary McKinnon, you know what I would do? I'd make up some BS secret

[1:01:54 - 1:02:00] ▶

space program, call it solar warden, send people down the wrong trail when actually I do have real,

[1:02:00 - 1:02:07] ▶

you know, deep space fleets and transfers of these. So, but the, and show the warden did come after me.

[1:02:07 - 1:02:14] ▶

So, so, so, but, but like, I'm still trying to get to the, so the trans, what do you think that fleet

[1:02:14 - 1:02:20] ▶

to fleet transfer of what of people? I think the materials, because first you have the people,

[1:02:20 - 1:02:25] ▶

then you have the ships, then you had the, um, chemicals, metal elements. Okay. And do we think that

[1:02:25 - 1:02:33] ▶

the material is being transferred between human? Do we don't think that the material is being

[1:02:35 - 1:02:40] ▶

transferred between extraterrestrials and humans, do we, or do we think that material is being transferred

[1:02:40 - 1:02:44] ▶

between humans? I think, yeah, ship to ship. So I guess maybe this was kind of like a logistics train.

[1:02:44 - 1:02:50] ▶

Like a supply chain and space or something. Yeah. Yeah. Just a basic. Cause you know,

[1:02:50 - 1:02:55] ▶

the army is all about more, the Navy or whoever is all about logistics. Right. And a lot of these

[1:02:55 - 1:03:00] ▶

materials, if they are layered extremely thinly and you have kind of atomic layer deposition style stuff,

[1:03:00 - 1:03:06] ▶

we know that manufacturing in space and in zero G environments allows you. So a lot of these

[1:03:06 - 1:03:12] ▶

materials that go, it looks like it was built in zero G. Like, this is so crazy. No faults.

[1:03:12 - 1:03:17] ▶

No. So like, maybe they built it in zero G and then they're like conflating it with the UFO stuff,

[1:03:17 - 1:03:22] ▶

which actually just shows up around nukes and in other contexts or whatever, but like,

[1:03:22 - 1:03:27] ▶

they might've built it in zero G. Yeah. Yeah. That's the old cams razor explanation.

[1:03:27 - 1:03:31] ▶

Isn't that the simplest? Okay. So there's like a space supply chain where humans are manufacturing

[1:03:31 - 1:03:36] ▶

these exotic materials in space that you literally couldn't, uh, yeah. Make physically

[1:03:36 - 1:03:41] ▶

impossible enough on earth. Yes. Yeah. That's fascinating. I don't think, has anybody ever

[1:03:41 - 1:03:46] ▶

explicitly tied together your thing like this, like we're doing now, or this is fresh and unique.

[1:03:46 - 1:03:53] ▶

I love this. This is fascinating because if you, I mean, that makes sense. That makes sense. Like the

[1:03:53 - 1:03:59] ▶

other stuff doesn't make sense. I mean, sending people 20 and back into, through the sun into a portal

[1:03:59 - 1:04:04] ▶

or the, and maybe that's possible. I don't know, but yeah, but super soldiers on Mars. No.

[1:04:04 - 1:04:08] ▶

Yeah. Super soldiers on Mars. I just, we need more evidence if I've all entertained, you know,

[1:04:08 - 1:04:12] ▶

whatever, but you need evidence, you know, you can't, you can't just, uh, yeah, I'm open to all

[1:04:13 - 1:04:18] ▶

stories. Yeah. But this is fascinating. Okay. So you, it's like a space supply chain logistics.

[1:04:18 - 1:04:25] ▶

Like a space factory essentially where they're creating these meta materials that you can't make on

[1:04:25 - 1:04:31] ▶

earth and you need deep space to create them. Yeah. And then, so the non-terrestrial officers

[1:04:31 - 1:04:35] ▶

would just be humans overseeing this supply chain, the space supply chain.

[1:04:35 - 1:04:40] ▶

This is really good. Cause I never even saw it in that way before.

[1:04:40 - 1:04:42] ▶

Oh, this is fascinating. And what's ironic is they're probably making space travel that much

[1:04:42 - 1:04:48] ▶

easier by creating these high dielectrics, which involve greater thrust in the byfield brown effect.

[1:04:48 - 1:04:54] ▶

Yeah. So they're like baking like, you know, their own program more powerful.

[1:04:54 - 1:04:58] ▶

Yeah. With to fit.

[1:04:58 - 1:05:00] ▶

Oh, this is fascinating. Wow. Wow. All right.

[1:05:00 - 1:05:05] ▶

I like that. I like discovery as we go. Yeah. I mean, who knows, but like that makes

[1:05:05 - 1:05:09] ▶

it speculation. It is speculation, but it, the idea that we have people in deep space or we have like

[1:05:09 - 1:05:17] ▶

literal alien, like men in black style, like aliens walking among us. And then we put like Navy suits on

[1:05:17 - 1:05:24] ▶

them, commander suits on them. They were like, you're a non-terrestrial officer or whatever.

[1:05:24 - 1:05:28] ▶

That makes less sense. Both of those make less sense.

[1:05:28 - 1:05:31] ▶

Just don't look at his huge, armor shaped eyes.

[1:05:31 - 1:05:33] ▶

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He'll crawl out of his skin suit occasionally, but like,

[1:05:33 - 1:05:37] ▶

you know, it's like that we're stuck between those two options like that, or, you know,

[1:05:37 - 1:05:41] ▶

it's like aliens in like, you know, military garb or, uh, you know, uh, you know, literally humans

[1:05:41 - 1:05:49] ▶

that we've spent that we've sent into like super deep space or whatever.

[1:05:49 - 1:05:52] ▶

I've never believed in any of the stories of, um, alien contact with governments.

[1:05:52 - 1:05:56] ▶

Mm. I think it's just out loud.

[1:05:56 - 1:05:58] ▶

Mm. Mm. Yeah. No, I think a lot of that stuff is pretty ridiculous. It feels like passage material

[1:05:58 - 1:06:05] ▶

that like is meant to send people down the wrong trail or something. Yeah. At least it doesn't feel

[1:06:05 - 1:06:10] ▶

like there's a ton of good evidence. I do think there are a lot of weird abduction cases where people

[1:06:10 - 1:06:15] ▶

experience things, you know, and, and, you know, have you ever had anything like that or,

[1:06:15 - 1:06:20] ▶

you know, I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. Um, it was back in 2006.

[1:06:20 - 1:06:29] ▶

Uh, my girlfriend and I were in what we call a bed sit in the UK, tiny flat on the first floor,

[1:06:31 - 1:06:36] ▶

not the ground floor. And, uh, we'd gone to bed, we've gone to sleep and I was suddenly woken up by a

[1:06:36 - 1:06:42] ▶

really sharp pain in my left heel. Mm. And it felt like two or 3 AM felt like I'd been, I was in deep

[1:06:42 - 1:06:50] ▶

sleep. It'd been a few hours. I'm like, what the hell's that? And I kind of leaned forward to check

[1:06:50 - 1:06:54] ▶

it out. Like something had bitten me that immediately I just went, oh, I was asleep again.

[1:06:54 - 1:07:00] ▶

In the morning I woke up and weirdly, I don't know why I'd gone to bed with my socks on or at least one

[1:07:01 - 1:07:06] ▶

sock on. And then I remembered what had happened during the night and I pulled the sock off. And in

[1:07:06 - 1:07:11] ▶

my left heel, there were two perfectly circular holes, both about five millimeters in diameter.

[1:07:11 - 1:07:17] ▶

And one still had a flap of skin hanging off it like a hole punch used for paper, but about these,

[1:07:18 - 1:07:26] ▶

this far apart. Why? I know. And I thought, what the hell? Well, the first floor, it wasn't, I was trying

[1:07:26 - 1:07:32] ▶

to think of every possible conventional explanation. Was it a rat with perfectly symmetrical five

[1:07:32 - 1:07:37] ▶

millimeter teeth that come to my bed and bit me in the night, but I'm on the first floor, you know,

[1:07:37 - 1:07:41] ▶

not the ground floor where like rodents could be. Um, no explanation whatsoever. Um, I can't say much

[1:07:41 - 1:07:50] ▶

more than that, cuz, but I did, um, later as I got more into electronics and electromagnetics, I did like

[1:07:50 - 1:07:56] ▶

scans and stuff. And then didn't come up. Couldn't find anything wrong, but

[1:07:56 - 1:08:01] ▶

a few years later I found out, cuz this is some, this is something I'm always researching and looking

[1:08:02 - 1:08:07] ▶

for an answer cuz I still haven't got one. There's a company, I don't know if it was Verisign, there's

[1:08:07 - 1:08:12] ▶

some chipping, like electronic chipping company and their process was exactly like that. No way.

[1:08:12 - 1:08:18] ▶

Yeah. A double injection. Um, and then years later, I've got two bumps that formed where those holes

[1:08:18 - 1:08:28] ▶

were and then moved around and I still have those bumps on my hill today. Do you think a human did

[1:08:28 - 1:08:34] ▶

that? Do you think an alien did it? I'm thinking some kind of government tracking,

[1:08:34 - 1:08:39] ▶

government tracking, which I feel ridiculous saying it. Well, do you feel ridiculous saying? Cuz you had a,

[1:08:39 - 1:08:44] ▶

a 20 year, you know, uh, yeah. Prime ministers were negotiating with American presidents on your behalf,

[1:08:44 - 1:08:52] ▶

uh, because the American government had it out for you. So I don't think, you know, I think for a

[1:08:52 - 1:08:57] ▶

normal person being like, you know, they, they wanted to chip me or whatever, like that might be a

[1:08:57 - 1:09:01] ▶

little paranoid, but yeah. Uh, I think in your case, I'm not so sure, man.

[1:09:01 - 1:09:05] ▶

Yeah. But even so I wasn't running away. You know, I was on bail. Everything was safe. I was

[1:09:05 - 1:09:10] ▶

contained as they would put it. Uh, but yeah, I just can't explain that. It's just weird as hell.

[1:09:10 - 1:09:16] ▶

Interesting. And do you still have that in your foot?

[1:09:16 - 1:09:19] ▶

I still have the bumps.

[1:09:19 - 1:09:20] ▶

Can I see him?

[1:09:20 - 1:09:21] ▶

Yeah. I hope no one's got any foot fetishes or, or the opposite.

[1:09:21 - 1:09:26] ▶

Maybe you can start an only fans after this.

[1:09:28 - 1:09:30] ▶

All right. Stripties time.

[1:09:30 - 1:09:33] ▶

I bet you've not done this before.

[1:09:35 - 1:09:37] ▶

This is wild.

[1:09:39 - 1:09:40] ▶

Are we ready?

[1:09:40 - 1:09:41] ▶

Yeah.

[1:09:41 - 1:09:41] ▶

Yeah.

[1:09:41 - 1:09:42] ▶

So this company Veritas.

[1:09:42 - 1:09:44] ▶

No, I think it was very sign or something.

[1:09:44 - 1:09:46] ▶

Very sign.

[1:09:46 - 1:09:47] ▶

I might've definitely began with a V, but I can't remember.

[1:09:47 - 1:09:50] ▶

And they do these little chip implants.

[1:09:50 - 1:09:53] ▶

Yeah. So when I woke up with the holes, they were kind of around here in the corner,

[1:09:53 - 1:09:58] ▶

but now they've, they've moved slightly. So one's there. It's a lesser.

[1:09:59 - 1:10:02] ▶

Whoa.

[1:10:02 - 1:10:03] ▶

And the other one's there.

[1:10:03 - 1:10:04] ▶

Yeah.

[1:10:04 - 1:10:04] ▶

The other one's big.

[1:10:04 - 1:10:05] ▶

Yeah.

[1:10:05 - 1:10:06] ▶

Like that's like very easy to spot.

[1:10:06 - 1:10:08] ▶

Yeah. And that's the other one.

[1:10:08 - 1:10:09] ▶

Okay.

[1:10:10 - 1:10:11] ▶

I think that's shrunk over time, actually.

[1:10:11 - 1:10:12] ▶

Yeah. It feels smaller.

[1:10:12 - 1:10:14] ▶

Yeah.

[1:10:14 - 1:10:14] ▶

Whoa. Weird.

[1:10:14 - 1:10:17] ▶

The company Gary is talking about here isn't called VeriSign. It's called VeriChip. And yes,

[1:10:17 - 1:10:24] ▶

it's done work in human microchipping. In fact, the company has produced a tiny RFID microchip about the

[1:10:24 - 1:10:32] ▶

size of a grain of rice that implants under the skin, transmits a unique ID when scanned, and links to a

[1:10:32 - 1:10:39] ▶

database with personal or medical information. This chip is essentially a permanent tracking and identification tool.

[1:10:39 - 1:10:47] ▶

But if you look a little deeper, VeriChip's corporate lineage runs through applied digital solutions.

[1:11:17 - 1:11:23] ▶

And prospectus filings show that the implantable microchips themselves were ultimately sourced from a subsidiary of Raytheon.

[1:11:23 - 1:11:31] ▶

What we do saves lives. It protects peace and democracy throughout the world.

[1:11:31 - 1:11:36] ▶

Yes, that Raytheon, one of the largest defense contractors in the world. Deeply embedded in military systems,

[1:11:36 - 1:11:44] ▶

missile guidance, radar, and classified electronics. By the end of the 2000s, VeriChip themselves had secured

[1:11:44 - 1:11:52] ▶

the rights to technology that would allow the chips to detect viruses from inside the body, including strains like H1N1.

[1:11:52 - 1:12:00] ▶

The proposal described an implant that could determine whether a virus was present, what kind it was, and how serious the threat might be.

[1:12:00 - 1:12:09] ▶

At that point, the device would no longer just be identifying a person. It would be monitoring their unique physiology and biomedical data.

[1:12:09 - 1:12:17] ▶

Completely dystopian, to say the least. And even more dystopian, knowing that this tracking technology was likely used in retaliation

[1:12:17 - 1:12:27] ▶

on an ordinary citizen like Gary McKinnon.

[1:12:27 - 1:12:30] ▶

So if that were surgically removed, what do you think you would find?

[1:12:30 - 1:12:34] ▶

I don't know. Maybe two lumps of unanalysable material. I don't know. I didn't have so much good equipment

[1:12:34 - 1:12:43] ▶

back then, but now I have really good stuff for electromagnetic analysis, radio frequency analysis.

[1:12:43 - 1:12:48] ▶

And I'd rather do that first before having it removed.

[1:12:48 - 1:12:51] ▶

You should do all that.

[1:12:51 - 1:12:53] ▶

Yeah.

[1:12:53 - 1:12:53] ▶

You should do it like tomorrow.

[1:12:53 - 1:12:55] ▶

Okay. I'll ask my local doctor.

[1:12:55 - 1:12:57] ▶

I'm just saying, I'm just saying, you know, you don't want, uh, the names to go missing, like in the, you know, non-terrestrial officers.

[1:12:57 - 1:13:04] ▶

Like you want it, you get like, do it now, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Figure it out.

[1:13:04 - 1:13:07] ▶

Yeah. Yeah. Figure it out. Uh, so I joke, we're, we're in between your implant experience and then this possible space supply chain for anti-gravity materials.

[1:13:07 - 1:13:18] ▶

And I don't know where to go. My head's exploding. Um, but, uh, yeah. I mean, is there anything just going back to the materials thing and the fleet to fleet transfer?

[1:13:18 - 1:13:29] ▶

It's just so fascinating and it's fascinating that you're into towns and Brown too.

[1:13:29 - 1:13:34] ▶

Oh man, it's like you have this like hermetic connection to this whole subject.

[1:13:34 - 1:13:38] ▶

Like you were meant to like see that or something like, like what do you do anything else as far as takeaways from that document, you know, and interpreting it?

[1:13:38 - 1:13:47] ▶

Because it was, it, James Fox came out with the program and he, he, you know, uh, did this great piece on you, but I think a lot of people do take what you found and run with it.

[1:13:47 - 1:13:57] ▶

Um, as far as just the people out there, like their interpretations of it when they see, you know, uh, people discuss it.

[1:13:57 - 1:14:04] ▶

Yeah. So you're, this is your interpretation that it's some sort of supply chain in space or something or, well, we, we stumbled on that together together.

[1:14:04 - 1:14:12] ▶

I guess. Yeah. I, I, I really connected it in that way. There was a supply chain. It just came to my mind.

[1:14:12 - 1:14:17] ▶

And in light of what we both know now, it does make sense in terms of potential propulsion, the materials that might be necessary for that as a dielectric or, so it's pretty amazing.

[1:14:17 - 1:14:29] ▶

No, it, it makes total sense. There was a company called Made in Space that tried to do this for a while.

[1:14:29 - 1:14:34] ▶

There's now a probably more promising company called Varta space, which does this. It's like factories in space.

[1:14:34 - 1:14:39] ▶

At the end of the day, you can think of the value proposition as this is we can do special chemistry because we can essentially turn off gravity for the manufacturing engineer.

[1:14:39 - 1:14:47] ▶

And then often commercial companies are doing things that have already been done in classified settings. And so the stuff that was done in classified settings might've been this, you know, who knows?

[1:14:47 - 1:14:59] ▶

Yeah. I mean, right now I think we, it's like we have that are known like six people in space, like six astronauts, like on, you know, the ISS and on various space, I think that, you know, Chinese space station, they have an astronaut or two. So the idea that how, how many officers were on this list?

[1:14:59 - 1:15:18] ▶

At least 40 ish 40 ish. So maybe they're in space or maybe they were also, and maybe they were in orbit or maybe they were just managing this non-terrestrial, you know, uh, kind of atomic layer deposition process or, you know, materials manufacturing or something.

[1:15:18 - 1:15:36] ▶

Yeah. I've always thought that weren't aliens. I thought this is bound to be because it says non-terrestrial, it's not extra-terrestrial. So in other words, they're on a fleet that isn't based in space on earth.

[1:15:36 - 1:15:47] ▶

When we talk about a speculative secret space program, we should establish something clearly. There really was an uncontested, very real and now declassified secret space program.

[1:15:47 - 1:16:02] ▶

The U.S. Air Force ran its own classified manned space effort alongside NASA's more public facing ones.

[1:16:02 - 1:16:10] ▶

In the 1960s, while the world watched Saturn V rockets rise under the banner of Apollo, the Air Force was developing the manned orbiting laboratory, a military space station designed for reconnaissance of America's enemies and other orbital operations.

[1:16:10 - 1:16:28] ▶

17 military astronauts were selected. A modified Gemini capsule was built. Titan 3 rockets were assigned. Launches into polar orbit were planned from Vandenberg.

[1:16:28 - 1:16:41] ▶

And then in June of 1969, exactly one month before the Apollo mission reached the moon for the first time, the manned orbiting laboratory was canceled.

[1:16:41 - 1:16:53] ▶

Advances in automated spy satellites made human observers redundant. Vietnam was draining resources. The Apollo program was imminent. So the classified space program was folded.

[1:16:53 - 1:17:06] ▶

But in defense culture, cancellation does not necessarily mean disappearance. Programs are restructured. Personnel are reassigned. Infrastructure is absorbed into deeper compartments.

[1:17:06 - 1:17:19] ▶

So what happened to the military astronaut program? Where did the classified orbital expertise go? And what was really going on with the classified space program?

[1:17:19 - 1:17:30] ▶

In 1993, former Lockheed Skunk Works director Ben Rich was speaking at a UCLA alumni event. Rich had overseen programs like the U-2, the SR-71, and the F-117.

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In 2013, he was a former president of the U-2, the U-1, and the U-1, and the U-1.

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At the end of his presentation, according to multiple attendees, Rich's final slide showed a black disc-shaped craft flying into space.

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He closed with the famous words, we now have the technology to take E.T. home.

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Was he just messing with the audience? Rich would end up dying just two years later.

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But towards the end of his life, he would privately say things that sounded very similar to this UCLA speech.

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Things about prodigious American space capabilities the public could barely dream of.

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Just before Ben Rich passed away, when I was talking to him, he told me, at the end of a 45-minute conversation, he said,

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Jim, we have things out in the desert, and he wasn't referring to Area 51, we have things out in the desert that is 50 years beyond what you can comprehend.

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I can comprehend a hell of a lot.

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And he said, if you've seen movies like Star Trek or Star Wars, we've been there, done that, or decided it wasn't worth the effort.

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Ben Rich's son, Michael Rich, was the president and CEO of RAND Corporation for decades.

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RAND was the Santa Monica-based, federally funded research and development center evaluating the prospects of Project Orion,

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nuclear pulse propulsion craft that could theoretically carry very large crews, reach Mars or outer planets, and enable long-duration missions.

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Not coincidentally, RAND has also conducted comprehensive research on the non-engineering side of deep space travel,

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crew psychology and isolation, life support logistics, radiation hazards, resupply challenges, cost and national priorities.

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RAND Corporation also happened to be intensely interested in the gravity-manipulating deep space propulsion work of Townsend Brown.

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His work going dark after he showed them a demo in 1967.

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President Ronald Reagan may have also inadvertently left a hint around secret American space capabilities in his diary entry from June 11, 1985.

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Lunch was with five top space scientists.

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It was fascinating.

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Space truly is the last frontier.

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And some of the developments there in astronomy, etc. are like science fiction, except they are real.

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I learned that our shuttle capacity is such we could orbit 300 people.

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You read that right.

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Not one shuttle crew.

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Not a single mission.

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300 people in Earth's orbit.

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In space.

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If you ask your favorite AI conversation agent, it'll tell you that we only have 10 or so people in space today.

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But we somehow had the capacity for 300 in the 80s?

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In 2020, Haim Eshed, former head of Israel's Defense Ministry's Space Directorate, essentially the father of the Israeli space program,

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publicly claimed that American astronauts and alien representatives were operating on underground bases on Mars.

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These bizarre hints have stacked up over the decades, and maybe they are mirrored in one of the most famous fictional versions of a secret space force, Stargate.

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With visible cooperation from the U.S. Air Force, the production of the show Stargate leaned on real-world military structures and culture.

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In fact, two sitting Air Force Chiefs of Staff, Michael E. Ryan and John P. Jumper, appeared on the show as they were in the world.

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These guys literally ran the Air Force and were showing up for cameos on this show.

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The lead actor on the show, Richard Dean Anderson, was later made an honorary brigadier general,

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in recognition of what the Air Force described as the program's positive portrayal of the service.

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The show's central premise?

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A classified off-world program run by the Air Force from a hidden command facility.

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Show it.

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Of course, the military connection might have just been due to some fans among the Air Force staff.

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Or maybe it was just another tiny hint towards something really big going on in secret.

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Strange stories of a parallel space program are apocryphal, but they are more abundant than you might think.

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It's this stunning revelation shared with Ross Coulthard on Chris Ramsey's Area 52.

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There was a conversation I had with someone who I trust, who got very emotional and described a friend of his dying on the moon.

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Wow. And I, what do you make of that? I didn't know what to make of it.

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It's important to remember that the public didn't even know the NRO, or National Reconnaissance

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Office, existed for decades. The parallel classified Air Force astronaut program wasn't

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fully declassified until 2015. So is it so crazy to think we might have experimented with covert

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human spaceflight and exotic material supply chains since then? The benefits of building

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materials in space cannot be understated. Matter in space, because of its lower-gravity environment,

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behaves in ways that are basically impossible on Earth. Without gravity, there's no convection,

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no settling, no buoyancy tearing materials apart as they form. Liquids stay perfectly mixed.

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Crystals grow with extraordinary purity. Optical fibers can be drawn with almost no internal flaws,

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potentially outperforming anything made on the ground. So it's also not that crazy to assume

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that we've experimented with this technology for extremely high-value metamaterials used at the

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highest levels of aerospace. Now where would such a program be headquartered? NASA's Johnson Space

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Center in Houston is not only where McKinnon found UFO-related images and spreadsheets. It's the NASA

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complex that specifically focuses on human spaceflight. The notorious line, Houston, we have a problem,

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refers to mission control at Johnson Space Center in Houston. So if you were operating a manned spaceflight

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operation involving a material supply chain, that's exactly where you'd put it. I should be clear,

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too. Both of us aren't trying to fully pour cold water on UFO crashes. I think Roswell happened. I think

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that Virginia happened in 1996. So it's always yes and in the UFO world. But I think intentional conflations

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also are systematically done by the intelligence world. And it's important to be able to parse through all

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of these things. Yeah. And of course, it's human nature to super associate stuff with something you

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want to be true. So we can all fall down that hole as well. Yeah, no, of course. Um, well, I I'm

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officially, uh, shocked. This is crazy. I mean, the Navy does do like the most exotic materials stuff as

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well. Like there's this place, naval surface warfare crane that does this, but Patel Memorial Institute

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does a lot of exotic material stuff, uh, as well. And so, yeah, I really, I do wonder if, you know,

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yeah, some of this is human made. And then if you say it's of alien provenance, then it's this like

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perfect, you know, kind of black box where like people can interpret it however they want. And yeah,

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it's a great shield. Isn't it good umbrella? It is. And then the fact that, and what's wild

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is that like, you're now experimenting with materials. Like you literally have materials in

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mind that make the Bifield Brown effect. Like you're interested in these anti-gravity experiments

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that involve some of these chemicals that, and materials that you saw. Yeah. Which is wild.

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Yeah. Well, the, um, yeah, it's, um, yeah, since 2007, since I first read about Bifield Brown.

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Uh, how'd you read about it? How'd you come across it?

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I don't remember precisely, but it was,

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Cause that's early.

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Yeah. It was undoubtedly researching UFO stuff.

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Yeah.

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Antigravity stuff specifically would have brought me to that.

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Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, what attracted me was the fact that you can, you can do this and you know,

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home garage or shared or whatever, you know, you don't have to be a scientist. You have to be a

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scientist to understand the mechanism, which no one has yet does, but you don't have to be a scientist

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to do it on the bench and try some experiments because all a capacitor to conductive plates

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in between them sandwiched, uh, an insulator, a dielectric that stores electric charge. So,

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you know, what, what's complicated about that? Um, and if you read all the so-called research into the BB effect,

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none of it's exhaustive, none of it. It's all, oh, I did five kilovolts at DC. I did 10 kilovolts at AC.

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Obviously Beulah went very far. There are a few people that went far, army research laboratory,

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but no one's done a huge battery of tests with a multitude of dielectrics, a multitude of, uh,

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different plates, the mass of the plates, not just the material. Uh, is it AC? Is it DC? Do you use a

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side wave? Do you use a, a ramp wave or a triangle wave or a sawtooth wave or, um, how long is your

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pulse? What's your delay? It's the, there's so many, well, there's quite a few parameters compared

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to a lot of stuff, but for a home experimenter, it's doable within a few hundred hours, I think.

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And I've probably done about 60 hours all told I've done thousands of hours of reading, but probably

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60 hours experimentation. Wow. Wild. Oh, so you've done 60 hours of running the actual experiment.

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Oh no, no, no. Like, like research into materials, try. Yeah, I did try. I mean,

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I started off with lifters, you know, try and get a baker foil and that was, yeah, it's interesting.

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Yeah. But it's balsam wood and baker foil. And there, there was, there used to be, uh,

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a website called blaze lamps. Mm-hmm. And, um, they had some really well-informed guys,

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the ex aerospace that knew all the like, um, aerodynamic mass and stuff. And they said,

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just like army research laboratory, they said, there's no way that this battered, you know,

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metal foil sheet, which isn't even perfectly smooth, like an airplane wing. There's no way

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aerodynamically that can be pushed just by iron flow, just the way, uh, ARL said it was like at

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least 10, 20% above what could be achieved by iron flow. Mm. Which is exactly what Brown said.

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And so for the audience, Townsend Brown is this mid century, very mysterious, uh, inventor who started

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the Navy then joined, uh, Martin Vega, which was, you know, pre-Lockheed Martin merger, uh, you know,

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the year that skunk works formed and then kind of popped up in all sorts of, you know, three letter

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agency contexts and was, you know, shoulder to shoulder with elite American military brass,

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people like Curtis LeMay, you know, it was just this very mysterious figure who consistently claimed

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that he would get these positive results in these anti-gravity experiments or what he called

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electro-gravitics. There's even a video of him popping champagne from the Bonson lab at the

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Institute of field physics in North Carolina, which we know is the CIA outpost studying anti-gravity

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and literally convening all of the best, uh, theoretical physicists on the question of gravity

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in 1957. And it was all sponsored by Wright airfield, which is where all the UFO rumors come from.

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They were literally paying for this, you know, for a lot of this research.

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Yeah. Weird connections. Um, and so if you take what he claimed about his, his own experiments

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at face value, you'd have this crazy update against, you know, space X and like chemical

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combustion, it would be this like total paradigm shifting thing. It's not, it's not a small deal.

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It's a really big deal. And the thing about Brown. As we almost know, we know for a fact that

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he was one of the number one radar guys in the Navy, there's an FBI file from 1942 or three that

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basically says he knows more about radar than anybody in the Navy. And that's, that's number

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one, number two, electro hydrodynamics, which is not electro gravitics. It's the manipulation

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of airflow with electric fields, which is how that the tin foil, you know, balsa wood, uh,

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you know, DIY, uh, uh, foilers work and fly. Uh, but it's also what made it into the B2 stealth

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bomber. And I'm pretty sure I have, I kind of have the receipts on that too. So like that's,

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so you have these two things where he's like the best, like EHD, you know, electro hydrodynamics

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and radar. And then he's claiming that he could also merge electromagnetism and gravity, which

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is the Holy grail of physics theory. And so it's like, okay. So like he's right on two

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out of the three things, but he's a total quack on the third thing. And there's so much

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smoke around it. And then now you have the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA who could,

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he's the global authority on being able to tell you that this experiment is only attributable

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to conventional electrostatics. And he's saying that, no, this is, it works. It works in a

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vacuum. So you can't do it with ionized air physics in its, in its current form cannot explain

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this and his own experiments, Charles Buehler, who you mentioned are derivative of Townsend

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Brown's work. And so like, I think there is so much smoke. There's a Japanese experiment

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that you mentioned the musha paper, which is a tequila and the, and the, and the, they

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say that they get, you know, a successful result in that case, I think they submerge the whole

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thing in, in, in transmission oil, which also you can't ionize transmission oil. Like, you

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know, that's not going to work. Um, so, uh, yeah, are they coordinating with these people

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in the U S for like the, you know, are they like some deep state thing in Japan? Like, I don't

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think so. You know, it's like this global thing. So yeah, this is wild. So I, and when I, we were

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setting this up and, uh, you know, I was talking to you on the phone and you were like, yeah, I'm

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super into Townsend Brown. I was like, what does this is going to be the best interview ever?

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Well, yeah, I really enjoyed your, I call it your Byfield Brown special. I don't know if that's

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what you, I'll take it. Yeah. Let's call it the Byfield Brown special. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you.

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Well, well, kudos to you for being in the Townsend Brown in 2007, because, uh, the Man Who

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Mastered Gravity by Paul Shatzkin was this great biography that only came out in like, I think

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around the pandemic and he created, he had this other version of it that wasn't really edited super

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neatly or concisely. I think that might've come out in like 2009 or something. And he kind of stepped

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away from the project, but 2007, like you're talking about Townsend Brown being on the dark corners of the

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web, like the, like you gotta like, you know, get the, it sounds, sounds like it. Yeah, man.

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Um, and wasn't Paul LaViolette who first introduced the idea of the B2 using that.

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Yeah. So here's where I think Paul LaViolette got wrong. Cause he wrote this great history of

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anti-gravity and he, he talks about microwave beam propulsion alongside Townsend Brown's Byfield

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Brown effect. And, you know, he's a really brilliant guy. He had his own theory called, uh, uh,

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sub quantum kinetics. Oh yeah. His whole, yeah. Which was fascinating. Uh, and he seems like just

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a brilliant, brilliant. I would have loved to have interviewed him. He died a few years ago,

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sadly. He's dead. Yeah. It sucks. Yeah. No way. I was in email contact with him. I thought up until

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two years ago, but obviously got that wrong. And we were going to have a, I was going to start a podcast

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and he was going to be my first interview. Oh dude, that would have been the best thing.

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He said he had hip problems. He was undergoing a hip surgery or something. So he, oh man. Okay.

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Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a real bummer. And, uh, but I think where he, and it's an amazing book and

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everybody should read it, but I do think he, he says that the B2 had like an anti-gravity drive.

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And I, I don't think that's correct. I think. I thought he just said the leading edge. It was

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like a capacitor, but it was, so the leading edge was one plate and the trailing edge was another

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plate. And yeah. So, so, and I think he's, I think he's right about that, but I think that just

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manipulates the airflow like that just makes the airflow. Yeah. It's like reduce the, you know,

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lift to drag ratio. Yeah. It wasn't a full or increase, increase the lift to drag ratio. Sorry.

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Yeah. So it made it slightly faster. Yeah. It makes it more aerodynamic and faster. I mean,

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maybe there's some real electric, a Vick thing happening, but there's no, there'd be no way to

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like fully say, because it's happening, not in a vacuum. So like maybe there is something, you know,

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actually happening there that is, you know, top secret and it's super, yeah, it's top secret,

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but I also don't know why they would necessarily declassify the B2 if it was using electric,

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Vick's per se. I will say there is a guy named William Gunston, who is the preeminent aerospace

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journalist in the UK or was. And, you know, it was part of like the Royal air society and has all

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these awards and stuff. And for, I think it was like air international magazine. He did like a

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history of, you know, arrow engine tech since world war two. And then he gets to Townsend Brown and he

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goes with Townsend Brown, like, you know, I will refrain from talking about, you know, leading edges

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charged to millions of volts, positive followed by trailing edges charged to millions of volts,

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negative, because I don't want to end up in the tower of London. And then he says that,

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and then he caveats it a little bit more. So like, I don't know if that caveating is genuine,

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you know, unsureness of what he's saying in the tower of London, which for the audience was a place

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of torture, was a place of torture. Does he mean professionally or like as a whole,

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like giving away secrets or if he's literally saying these are state secrets. And then I don't know if the

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caveats are like, I don't want, you know, I really don't want to be implicated for having said this.

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So I'm going to sprinkle in some doubt or whatever. I don't know, but it's interesting.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It takes that.

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But, um, so, so you, you, you are, do you want to pull off one of these experiments or?

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Oh, hell yeah. Um, I'm planning it by April of the latest. I've been, um, distracted for a while and

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had to do other things. I'm only doing these experiments in a 10 by 10 foot shed and, um,

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they're not expensive, but they consume a lot of time. Yeah. And I have, I'm basically

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doing industrial processes in a, in a garden shed. So it's, it's a bit, I've got, but I, the first thing

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I bought, cause you have to eat this stuff to a thousand degrees, the calcium copper titanate,

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uh, to a thousand degrees and then I had to buy a 10 ton hydraulic press. Uh, I bought a gas furnace

[1:36:57 - 1:37:04] ▶

and then because of the geometry and stuff that, that wasn't unusual. So then I bought an electric

[1:37:05 - 1:37:09] ▶

furnace, which is much smaller and, you know, easy to manipulate this tiny disc.

[1:37:09 - 1:37:15] ▶

So cool.

[1:37:15 - 1:37:17] ▶

It's only 40 millimeters across. I'm starting off very small. Um, so I've got to make that into what

[1:37:17 - 1:37:23] ▶

they call a green body, make that solid. I bought really high quality silver paste as the plates.

[1:37:23 - 1:37:29] ▶

Uh, but then after that, you have to think of when you've got these two plates at 30 kilovolts or more,

[1:37:29 - 1:37:36] ▶

you get arcing currents, you get sparks basically. Um, so I have to find a way to stop that. And my

[1:37:36 - 1:37:44] ▶

first thought was to have very small discs on top of the 40 millimeter diameter calcium copper titanate,

[1:37:44 - 1:37:50] ▶

the CCTO. Um, but there's, there's other ways to do it as well. So I've got to, I've got to figure

[1:37:50 - 1:37:56] ▶

out a path and then completely, cause I really want to see it float. I want to stand there in my shed,

[1:37:56 - 1:38:01] ▶

turn the on switch on and see this thing.

[1:38:02 - 1:38:04] ▶

Arise. That would be amazing. If you made something levitate, you would kind of, the haters

[1:38:05 - 1:38:11] ▶

would have nothing to say. Yeah. What do you say? You say it's I, I, it's not real these days.

[1:38:11 - 1:38:16] ▶

It could be AI. Yeah. Sure. That's a good point. Would you do this in a vacuum chamber?

[1:38:16 - 1:38:21] ▶

Uh, yeah, eventually I do have one vacuum chain. Well, that's, well, that's for my resident. I

[1:38:22 - 1:38:26] ▶

could only goes down to like minus 99 MPA or something. Um, but I mean, Gravitech has done

[1:38:26 - 1:38:33] ▶

it in a vacuum chamber. They used to contract for NASA. Who's Gravitech? Gravitech is under a

[1:38:33 - 1:38:38] ▶

different name now, but they've, they've got, I can send you the videos. What's his name? Uh, not Henry,

[1:38:38 - 1:38:44] ▶

Henrik something. I've had a few emails with him as well. Um, yeah, they've done it in a vacuum,

[1:38:44 - 1:38:50] ▶

a proper vacuum, like, you know, minus hundreds of tall. Um, shout out to Gravitech. I want, I want

[1:38:50 - 1:38:57] ▶

to check that out. I've never heard of that. He's got a different company now, but I've got his email.

[1:38:57 - 1:39:01] ▶

I'll send you. Oh, please. Yeah. Get him on man. He'd be, he'd be glad to. I'd love to. And he now

[1:39:01 - 1:39:05] ▶

does stuff for satellites. I think like private satellites, whoa, uh, not using this.

[1:39:05 - 1:39:10] ▶

I don't even know enough to comment, but yeah, he's, he's done it in a vacuum.

[1:39:10 - 1:39:15] ▶

Interesting. And it is less. Why wouldn't he pursue it? Like, you know, more substantively

[1:39:15 - 1:39:21] ▶

after that sounds like you just went straight to satellite. I think, yeah, I think he wants to

[1:39:21 - 1:39:24] ▶

be commercial and make money to work for himself. Um, and probably maybe that's as far as he wants it

[1:39:24 - 1:39:29] ▶

to go, but it works in a vacuum, but also you have like, uh, Jean Louis Nordin, the French, um, kind of

[1:39:29 - 1:39:36] ▶

YouTube scientist, I want to call it cause I don't know his credentials for real. He's done it in

[1:39:36 - 1:39:41] ▶

vacuum tubes. Um, he is isolated the electrode tubes. So, but I don't know what the pressure was.

[1:39:41 - 1:39:49] ▶

So this is, I mean, yeah, so you're right. There is this whole global community of

[1:39:49 - 1:39:54] ▶

DIY independent creators, aerospace professionals who in their private life just want to pursue this

[1:39:54 - 1:40:01] ▶

or UFO nuts or whatever outside of, you know, whatever they're doing. And, uh, most of them

[1:40:01 - 1:40:08] ▶

say that there's a, there, there, there are very few people that say there aren't that they're there.

[1:40:08 - 1:40:11] ▶

The ones that do, I believe there's, um, you know, an air for the guy, his last name is Tally

[1:40:11 - 1:40:18] ▶

and he's an air force guy. And I think he consistently use this very low voltage and tries

[1:40:18 - 1:40:23] ▶

to explain it away. And I even, I spoke to this one Navy scientist and he was like, Tally's just a bad

[1:40:23 - 1:40:29] ▶

actor. Like he's like brought on the scene. Like he's, he's like this guy in UFO world named Sean

[1:40:29 - 1:40:34] ▶

Kirkpatrick. Who's the former arrow director. Who's like brought on to like, you know, dismiss.

[1:40:34 - 1:40:39] ▶

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, you know, um, uh, Tim Ventura or propulsion. Yeah, I do. Yeah. He's a good

[1:40:39 - 1:40:45] ▶

guy. Yeah. He had that guy on that did, um, had similar effects with very low voltage, like five KV

[1:40:45 - 1:40:51] ▶

five kilovolts. I think it was Bueller now or because Bueller thinks it's the electric. Yeah. So this is the,

[1:40:51 - 1:40:57] ▶

the, the NASA electrostatics. I get confused because there was a previous Bueller in my old

[1:40:57 - 1:41:01] ▶

documentation for like pre two thousands. Whoa. Unless that was his dad or maybe it was because

[1:41:01 - 1:41:06] ▶

he maybe, what's he like mid fifties now? Maybe it was him. No. What, what in, in your old documentation?

[1:41:06 - 1:41:13] ▶

Yeah. Yeah. I've got documents with a Bueller and I didn't think it was him, but maybe it is.

[1:41:13 - 1:41:18] ▶

We'll have to, we didn't do that doc swap. We said we'd do a doc swap. Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh shit.

[1:41:18 - 1:41:23] ▶

Yeah. I'd love to. Um, yeah. Do you, do you have like a lot of compiled information about this?

[1:41:23 - 1:41:29] ▶

Oh, hell yeah. Oh, sweet. Cool. Yeah. Interesting.

[1:41:29 - 1:41:33] ▶

Huge zip file. Uh, and in terms of free energy, there's one thing, um, I found, not I found,

[1:41:33 - 1:41:39] ▶

but I found the guy that discovered it. Um, so Lenzi's law stops the motor rotating because of, you know,

[1:41:39 - 1:41:48] ▶

the, uh, counter to magnetic force. If you look at the formula for that, um, the, the strong element

[1:41:48 - 1:41:57] ▶

of that is the inductance of the coil. And this guy found that if you increase the induct, his name

[1:41:57 - 1:42:02] ▶

is Thane Hines. If you increase the inductance of the coil, then the rise time of the opposing magnetic

[1:42:02 - 1:42:09] ▶

field that slows the turning of the motor down when you're applying power to a load is delayed,

[1:42:09 - 1:42:15] ▶

just like delaying timing in a car engine. And he found that not only could he delay it enough to

[1:42:15 - 1:42:21] ▶

stop the counter, the CEMF counter-electro-motor force dragging, creating electromagnetic drag.

[1:42:22 - 1:42:28] ▶

When it's passed a certain point phase angle, it assisted the rotation. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So your

[1:42:29 - 1:42:36] ▶

standard electric generator is a disc with magnets and underneath it coils. And he found that when, um,

[1:42:36 - 1:42:45] ▶

so the magnet is spinning around, it gets to what they call TDC top dead center above the coil

[1:42:45 - 1:42:50] ▶

with his method, because it delays the opposing, because when the magnet, so let's say it's a North

[1:42:51 - 1:42:56] ▶

pole facing down and it cuts into the coil that creates a South pole in the coil that opposes the

[1:42:56 - 1:43:04] ▶

incoming movement of the magnet. And then when the magnet's moving out of the coil, it creates a North

[1:43:04 - 1:43:11] ▶

pole, uh, North pole, which accelerates it out. And he found that when you do this stupidly simple,

[1:43:11 - 1:43:18] ▶

but incredibly effective time delay, um, the CEMF rises in such a way it's late on the income.

[1:43:18 - 1:43:26] ▶

So the magnet gets pulled in and it's early on the outgoing. So the magnet gets pushed out. So

[1:43:27 - 1:43:33] ▶

it accelerates the incoming and the outgoing. And he took it to such an extent that eventually

[1:43:33 - 1:43:38] ▶

there's no opposition at all. And you can actually reverse, you're not reversing Lenzi's law,

[1:43:38 - 1:43:44] ▶

because that's an inaccurate physics statement, but you're reversing the effect.

[1:43:44 - 1:43:47] ▶

In effect you are.

[1:43:47 - 1:43:49] ▶

Yeah. And I did a small experiment. I'll send you the video.

[1:43:49 - 1:43:52] ▶

Um, I did the most simple magnetic emoji can I had, um, a cylinder shaped magnet,

[1:43:53 - 1:43:58] ▶

which is diametrically magnetized. It's not North on top, South on the bottom. Each curved half is a North

[1:43:58 - 1:44:04] ▶

and South poles. I had that in a vertical shaft rotating. And I show it with a normal generator coil,

[1:44:04 - 1:44:11] ▶

which when you attach it to a load, the power input needed increases to support the load.

[1:44:11 - 1:44:18] ▶

And, um, the rotation slows down. Well, when I put his coil on, which has higher inductance,

[1:44:19 - 1:44:26] ▶

when you tell that call to power load,

[1:44:27 - 1:44:29] ▶

the rotation speed increases and the input current goes down the complete opposite of motor theory,

[1:44:29 - 1:44:36] ▶

motor generator theory. Whoa.

[1:44:37 - 1:44:39] ▶

That's the one and only thing I've seen and been able to replicate the works in terms of free energy.

[1:44:39 - 1:44:44] ▶

And this guy is now, he's got contracts for Siemens, Phillips with him. He's talking to China.

[1:44:44 - 1:44:50] ▶

It's about to blow up. Whoa.

[1:44:50 - 1:44:52] ▶

And I've been following him since about 2007 to on over unity.com. The first forum I saw him.

[1:44:52 - 1:44:58] ▶

Fast. What's his name?

[1:44:58 - 1:44:59] ▶

Thane Heinz.

[1:44:59 - 1:45:00] ▶

Where's he based?

[1:45:00 - 1:45:01] ▶

He's Canadian physicist.

[1:45:01 - 1:45:03] ▶

Dude, you are deep down the rabbit hole of alternative propulsion and energy.

[1:45:05 - 1:45:08] ▶

You've got to interview this guy.

[1:45:08 - 1:45:10] ▶

I would love to.

[1:45:10 - 1:45:11] ▶

He he's like your general kind of crazy man genius. He's, um, not so good at social interaction.

[1:45:11 - 1:45:18] ▶

Yeah.

[1:45:18 - 1:45:19] ▶

But he he's got it, man.

[1:45:19 - 1:45:21] ▶

It's typical of somebody who makes like real breakthroughs like that, you know, for them to be

[1:45:21 - 1:45:27] ▶

not always like, I think he's got a lot in his mind.

[1:45:27 - 1:45:29] ▶

I think he's got a lot on his mind as well.

[1:45:29 - 1:45:31] ▶

It's fascinating.

[1:45:32 - 1:45:33] ▶

What do you think this chip in your foot? Like, does it, does it ever like burn or buzz or?

[1:45:34 - 1:45:38] ▶

No, it's sometimes close.

[1:45:39 - 1:45:41] ▶

No.

[1:45:41 - 1:45:42] ▶

So there's nothing.

[1:45:42 - 1:45:44] ▶

You basically you've gotten no incremental information on it outside of.

[1:45:44 - 1:45:48] ▶

No. Just a couple of lumps that have moved over time towards the inside of the arch of the foot.

[1:45:48 - 1:45:53] ▶

Strange.

[1:45:53 - 1:45:53] ▶

Yeah.

[1:45:53 - 1:45:53] ▶

Have you ever, uh, had a sort of like any sort of men in black experience or experience with,

[1:45:53 - 1:46:02] ▶

you know, strange men in suits showing up at your place or?

[1:46:03 - 1:46:06] ▶

No, but my lawyer had to office and her car robbed.

[1:46:06 - 1:46:10] ▶

Really?

[1:46:10 - 1:46:11] ▶

Which is obviously not men in black or small earthly powers.

[1:46:11 - 1:46:14] ▶

Mm.

[1:46:14 - 1:46:14] ▶

Um, no, nothing men in black.

[1:46:14 - 1:46:17] ▶

Mm. Did, uh, did. Okay. So when, when you hacked in to all of these sensitive American military sites,

[1:46:17 - 1:46:25] ▶

how did you get caught and what happened next?

[1:46:26 - 1:46:29] ▶

Oh man.

[1:46:29 - 1:46:29] ▶

Yeah. I got, uh, got lazy, got egotistical.

[1:46:30 - 1:46:33] ▶

Um, I thought I can go anywhere I like and look at anything.

[1:46:34 - 1:46:37] ▶

And, uh, I started making direct connections instead of jumping through various IP addresses.

[1:46:38 - 1:46:44] ▶

So I was making direct connections to, you know, the target and I was using like free AOL signup CDs.

[1:46:44 - 1:46:51] ▶

So I wasn't being at all, you know, like a professional hacker. I was just, yeah, I thought I

[1:46:52 - 1:46:57] ▶

could just do it. I thought, oh, these guys don't even know, don't even have passwords. They wouldn't

[1:46:57 - 1:47:01] ▶

even know I've been here. Uh, but yeah, eventually, um, obviously when that guy right clicked the LAN

[1:47:01 - 1:47:09] ▶

icon and disconnected me, that was NASA and they reported to BT, British telecom, which is my internet

[1:47:09 - 1:47:18] ▶

service provider at the time and said, who's this IP at this time. And they said, I was, uh, in fact,

[1:47:18 - 1:47:25] ▶

they didn't have my name at first. I don't know if my internet account was my girlfriend's name or if

[1:47:25 - 1:47:30] ▶

we were using her aunt's internet or something, but the horrible thing was when they came with the national

[1:47:30 - 1:47:35] ▶

high tech crime, yet they came to arrest me. The warrant was for the whole house and they came

[1:47:35 - 1:47:41] ▶

early in the morning, arrested me, my girlfriend, my girlfriend's aunt's daughter, who was only like

[1:47:41 - 1:47:47] ▶

12 or something at the time. So it was quite a horrible experience extended family and all my fault.

[1:47:47 - 1:47:52] ▶

And, uh, why are they arrested 12 year old?

[1:47:53 - 1:47:55] ▶

Uh, what just to question sure? Not, not arrest on detain. Not to jail. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:47:56 - 1:48:01] ▶

That's still, uh, it must've been traumatic for. Yeah. Cause they didn't know who the person was.

[1:48:01 - 1:48:06] ▶

They knew it was someone at that address. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and unfortunately, yeah,

[1:48:06 - 1:48:11] ▶

my ex-girlfriend's cousin, he, he was quite, um, anti-authoritarian and quite alternative.

[1:48:11 - 1:48:17] ▶

And they, I think they thought it was him. Oh, it must be him. He's got purple hair.

[1:48:17 - 1:48:20] ▶

He must be the guy. Oh, so yeah. I'm laughing now, but it's horrible. Cause it affected so many other

[1:48:20 - 1:48:26] ▶

people, you know, my stupid curiosity, but James mentioned something about guys looking over you

[1:48:26 - 1:48:33] ▶

at your bed or something like, like at night or something. Oh no, that's probably when I was arrested.

[1:48:33 - 1:48:38] ▶

Cause I was arrested in my sleep. Wait, so, so who were you arrested in your sleep?

[1:48:38 - 1:48:43] ▶

Yeah. The national high tech crime unit. I I'd been up all night playing galactic civilizations for

[1:48:43 - 1:48:49] ▶

some big space game and, um, and probably smoking still as well and gone to bed late. So I was asleep at

[1:48:49 - 1:48:55] ▶

eight in the morning, but girlfriend was getting ready to go to work, knock, knock, knock. She's

[1:48:55 - 1:49:00] ▶

in a dressing gown. They're patting her down and pushing her into a room. Then they come into my

[1:49:00 - 1:49:04] ▶

room. I'm in bed and I've got this guy. Gary McKinnon. I'm Jeff Johnson from the national high

[1:49:04 - 1:49:09] ▶

tech crime unit. You're under arrest for computer misuse. So it was, yeah. And then from, from that

[1:49:09 - 1:49:16] ▶

point onwards, the UK was like, okay with more of kind of a slap on the wrist sort of thing. And then it

[1:49:16 - 1:49:22] ▶

was the U S that was like, no, we need to extradite him now. And then what you mentioned,

[1:49:22 - 1:49:27] ▶

they changed the extradition laws to make it this sort of blanket thing that applied to you.

[1:49:28 - 1:49:33] ▶

Yeah, definitely. So, uh, when I was first arrested, um, the national high tech crime unit,

[1:49:33 - 1:49:38] ▶

who were the arrested body said to me, you'll do six months inside, maybe community service,

[1:49:38 - 1:49:44] ▶

maybe no jail time. Uh, cause under UK law, all I did was unauthorized access. You know, I didn't break

[1:49:44 - 1:49:51] ▶

anything or steal anything or make money or anything like that. And, um, but then these

[1:49:51 - 1:49:55] ▶

officers went to America at the ONI and I must say, office of Naval intelligence, cause there's

[1:49:55 - 1:50:02] ▶

another ONI there's an intelligence sister. I think investigation or something, but I don't know.

[1:50:02 - 1:50:07] ▶

Yeah. And, um, when they came back, they had a very heavy tone, a completely different tone about

[1:50:07 - 1:50:12] ▶

them. They were very impressed by meeting with the top brass in Washington. And, um, yeah, oh, this,

[1:50:12 - 1:50:18] ▶

oh, this guy caused $5,000 of damage on every PC he was on, you know, which is just stupid.

[1:50:18 - 1:50:24] ▶

How do you damage the hardware? If you just do this like software hack that we're calling a hack,

[1:50:24 - 1:50:29] ▶

but you're using like off the shelf stuff. Yeah. It's like PC anywhere. Yeah. But I think what

[1:50:29 - 1:50:35] ▶

they call damage is the time it took them to take them offline. So the machines are unusable for a while,

[1:50:35 - 1:50:41] ▶

investigate them. So as you know, you know what,

[1:50:41 - 1:50:44] ▶

I just, it feels like kind of white hack hacking to me, cause you didn't actually end up using any

[1:50:44 - 1:50:50] ▶

of the files in a way to hurt the U S or there'd be like, again, you can say what you will about

[1:50:50 - 1:50:55] ▶

Snowden or the Sandra, any of these guys, like there's nothing you did to like knock the U S down

[1:50:55 - 1:51:00] ▶

a leg as far as their tactical ability to like, you know, do things. So it's almost like a white hat

[1:51:00 - 1:51:06] ▶

hack because the costs thing heard to take the stuff down and reset them. They would have needed to do

[1:51:06 - 1:51:12] ▶

anyways. That would have been, what if like a malicious person had like, you know, penetrated

[1:51:12 - 1:51:17] ▶

all these servers, state actor. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. So they're actually extremely lucky.

[1:51:17 - 1:51:22] ▶

They need to do $5,000. Why are you buying your PCs from? No, they should. I mean, you literally white

[1:51:22 - 1:51:27] ▶

hat hackers get paid. So like, I think, I think they should pay you. All right. I'm just saying,

[1:51:27 - 1:51:33] ▶

please send the email. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no, I'm serious. It's like

[1:51:33 - 1:51:37] ▶

you literally, you didn't do anything showing malintent. Once you got the info, they got the

[1:51:37 - 1:51:43] ▶

info back and then they reset ideally their computer networking and architecture in a way that,

[1:51:43 - 1:51:48] ▶

you know, these sort of phishing attacks couldn't be done. These are basic things that you're using.

[1:51:49 - 1:51:54] ▶

Yeah. So I just, I like, I think it's like insecure. It almost sounds like somebody in, in,

[1:51:54 - 1:52:00] ▶

in like middling bureaucracy, who's trying to cover their ass. Like this took us all this couple, you

[1:52:00 - 1:52:06] ▶

should have done it before. Yeah. What are you doing? You're not doing your job. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:52:06 - 1:52:11] ▶

If it was some super sophisticated quantum error correction that you had figured out in 2000,

[1:52:11 - 1:52:17] ▶

that would be one thing that would be like, okay. And then you used it in this sort of detrimental

[1:52:17 - 1:52:21] ▶

way to American national security. Yeah. But otherwise, I mean, I don't know,

[1:52:21 - 1:52:26] ▶

man, that feels like a kind of crazy. Okay. So then what happens to the extradition laws?

[1:52:26 - 1:52:30] ▶

Oh man. So yeah, the original extradition law, which I think was

[1:52:30 - 1:52:35] ▶

1989, um, was a good basic law. We accuse this British citizen of having committed a crime in

[1:52:35 - 1:52:45] ▶

or against America. Uh, we have this evidence and it's a crime over here and it's a crime over there.

[1:52:45 - 1:52:51] ▶

So we should have him in America to stand trial. Totally fair, totally reasonable. Um, but then,

[1:52:51 - 1:52:58] ▶

I mean, this is the weird thing in law, computer crime is a weird thing. It's a gray area because

[1:52:58 - 1:53:03] ▶

it's not physical. Where where's your bum at the seat when you commit the crime. There's lots of

[1:53:03 - 1:53:07] ▶

like questions that are legally intransigent, you know, like, how do you place this? Um,

[1:53:07 - 1:53:13] ▶

so what happened was I was arrested in 2002

[1:53:15 - 1:53:19] ▶

and in March, and then I was re questioned by the, the NHTCU went to visit the DOJ in August.

[1:53:21 - 1:53:29] ▶

Then they came back. Then they re interviewed me in November, 2002. And that's when their tone had

[1:53:29 - 1:53:35] ▶

changed. Very serious. You're accused of harming military systems to lurk, could be used in prison.

[1:53:35 - 1:53:40] ▶

And that's when, you know, things really got serious for me. I thought, my God, this is just

[1:53:41 - 1:53:45] ▶

blown out of all proportion. Um, but we were protected by the extradition law

[1:53:45 - 1:53:50] ▶

because there had to be evidence of malintent, et cetera. And I, I, when I did my police interview,

[1:53:50 - 1:53:55] ▶

I completely admitted to what I'd done because it was all on the hard drive.

[1:53:55 - 1:53:58] ▶

You know, I said, yeah, it's all on the hard drive. I went there and I got this document,

[1:53:59 - 1:54:01] ▶

went to another place, got other documents. So I was open about it thinking, oh, six months,

[1:54:01 - 1:54:06] ▶

like they told me, I'll be fine. And they said community service, so I can do both. I'll be fine.

[1:54:06 - 1:54:11] ▶

Although I wouldn't have liked six months in prison. But, um, when it came to November and then they

[1:54:12 - 1:54:18] ▶

threatened extradition, then on paper it was 70 years in jail, 70 years. It was like 10, seven counts,

[1:54:18 - 1:54:25] ▶

10 years per count. And I just, I just went crazy. I thought this is absolutely mad. What are we going

[1:54:25 - 1:54:30] ▶

to do? And, um, there was a lot of, um, like the UFO community in America wanted me to stand trial in

[1:54:30 - 1:54:39] ▶

America. It's like a martyr. Right. Yes. It'd be great. He'll come over. He'll,

[1:54:39 - 1:54:44] ▶

they'll open all the secrets and he'll make it after. But what America actually said, the DOJ said

[1:54:44 - 1:54:49] ▶

that I'd be tried under military order. Number one, which is Guantanamo status, totally secret.

[1:54:49 - 1:54:56] ▶

No media, no media, no media cover, no family visits, you know, me in an orange suit with my red hair,

[1:54:56 - 1:55:04] ▶

joking, sorry. But yes, it, it went really scary, like really scary, like over the top, like, well,

[1:55:05 - 1:55:11] ▶

you know, Kafka, Kafkaesque. Yeah. Many people said, damn. Hey, you must have been, uh, you must

[1:55:11 - 1:55:19] ▶

have felt horrible. You must have been like the, the, you know, world's out to get me or the, the most,

[1:55:19 - 1:55:23] ▶

uh, powerful nation in the world. Uh, you know, is out to get me. Yeah. And, uh, that, that must be

[1:55:23 - 1:55:29] ▶

a scary feeling. Yeah. Well, it started in late 2002 and by 2008, because we lost so many court cases

[1:55:29 - 1:55:37] ▶

and hearings, I've given up all hope. And I thought there's no way I'm going to give my

[1:55:37 - 1:55:42] ▶

fucking life to a foreign jail. And I bought potassium chloride, one of the three chemicals

[1:55:42 - 1:55:48] ▶

in the lethal injection. And I thought if I get that decision, I'm just going to not inject it.

[1:55:48 - 1:55:54] ▶

I looked up the amount, how many grams per kilogram of body weight, and I was just going to swallow it

[1:55:55 - 1:56:00] ▶

and have a heart attack and die. Since I came into office, the sole issue on which I have been required

[1:56:00 - 1:56:05] ▶

to make a decision is whether Mr. McKinnon's extradition to the United States would breach his

[1:56:05 - 1:56:10] ▶

human rights. After careful consideration of all of the relevant material, I have concluded that

[1:56:10 - 1:56:17] ▶

Mr. McKinnon's extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his life

[1:56:17 - 1:56:23] ▶

that a decision to extradite would be incompatible with Mr. McKinnon's human rights.

[1:56:26 - 1:56:30] ▶

I have therefore withdrawn the extradition, extradition order against Mr. McKinnon.

[1:56:30 - 1:56:33] ▶

Mr. McKinnon. That was incredible. Theresa May. So yeah, it's heavy.

[1:56:33 - 1:56:41] ▶

That's heavy, man. That's really intense. And I'm sorry it got to that place. Because it's ridiculous.

[1:56:41 - 1:56:50] ▶

If you look at the fact pattern, it's just insane. And again, I'm saying that some of these other

[1:56:50 - 1:56:55] ▶

whistleblower cases, there are nuances to them. Yours, I think it's an absolute witch. That's crazy.

[1:56:55 - 1:57:03] ▶

Yeah, I agree. It's just crazy. Um, yeah, I don't even know what to say. I'm so sorry. I mean,

[1:57:03 - 1:57:11] ▶

that's just awful. I'm sorry on behalf of my country. Well, you're not the government, Jesse.

[1:57:11 - 1:57:15] ▶

So that's true. I don't have to forgive you. Okay. Well, yeah, it's just not a good, uh,

[1:57:15 - 1:57:21] ▶

representation, but, um, yeah, well, America is a great country and the people are great. It's just,

[1:57:21 - 1:57:25] ▶

um, there's been some very bad governance since world war two in my humble opinion.

[1:57:25 - 1:57:29] ▶

Yeah, no, and on this side of the pond as well, the British as well.

[1:57:29 - 1:57:33] ▶

Sure. Yeah, no. And it's crazy that you were, I mean, Gordon Brown, uh, David Cameron,

[1:57:33 - 1:57:40] ▶

uh, uh, Theresa May, all of these UK prime ministers were thinking about you. You were

[1:57:41 - 1:57:47] ▶

this really important case because the ex you, you said that the extradition law was changed to

[1:57:47 - 1:57:51] ▶

literally like right after you did what you did. Yeah. This is one thing I didn't mention. Um,

[1:57:51 - 1:57:56] ▶

we saw a draft of the new extradition treaty through our lawyers and it was written a British

[1:57:57 - 1:58:03] ▶

extradition treaty with America was written in American English, which is kind of a clue as to

[1:58:03 - 1:58:08] ▶

who's calling the shots and, um, you know, American spelling and an English legal document. And also

[1:58:08 - 1:58:16] ▶

a lot of the phrases were almost verbatim taken from some of my charges. So I think it's, um, it's

[1:58:16 - 1:58:25] ▶

not that there's anything special about me, but it was what I did. Um, at that time, the American DOD

[1:58:25 - 1:58:33] ▶

systems were getting like 250,000 attacks, hacking attacks. If you read the general accounting office

[1:58:33 - 1:58:40] ▶

documents at the time and still to this day. So I think they needed to do something and then needed

[1:58:40 - 1:58:47] ▶

to increase the punishment and they needed a poster boy. So timing is everything, isn't it?

[1:58:47 - 1:58:52] ▶

Yeah. Yeah. Because there had been big hackers before you, right? Like what's the name of the guy who

[1:58:52 - 1:58:59] ▶

hacked into the DOE department of energy and like atomic lab, Matthew Bevin, Matthew Bevin. Yeah.

[1:58:59 - 1:59:06] ▶

And so this was like an actual hack on really sensitive stuff by kind of a more professional

[1:59:06 - 1:59:12] ▶

hacker. Is that safe to say, or, or also kind of like a vigilante? Yeah, no, I think he was more

[1:59:12 - 1:59:18] ▶

skilled than I was. He didn't just do blank password hacking. He found, you know, weaknesses in protocols.

[1:59:18 - 1:59:24] ▶

Okay. So he was more advanced, but, um, and yeah, and he was early. He was in the nineties.

[1:59:24 - 1:59:30] ▶

And then what happened to him? He was basically. Slap on the wrist.

[1:59:31 - 1:59:35] ▶

He did go through some shit. Don't get me wrong. Matthew, if you're listening. Um, but yeah, he didn't

[1:59:35 - 1:59:40] ▶

face a long term. There were a few of these cases before you where I think in a certain case, it was

[1:59:40 - 1:59:46] ▶

like a hundred thousand computers ended up with malware, you know, who's. Oh yeah. Well, I mean, yeah.

[1:59:46 - 1:59:52] ▶

If you want to know who's the most successful hacker, it's not a person. It's a virus. Yeah.

[1:59:52 - 1:59:56] ▶

Like the love, love. What's it? I can't remember the name, but I'm talking about specifically,

[1:59:56 - 2:00:00] ▶

there's precedent for UK based hackers hacking into us systems, which neither of us are suggesting

[2:00:00 - 2:00:06] ▶

anyone do, you know, it's not, you don't hack into, you know, national security stuff, you know,

[2:00:06 - 2:00:11] ▶

this is, this is a lesson, but, uh, in, in, in those cases, they did worse stuff than you.

[2:00:11 - 2:00:17] ▶

Yeah. Uh, and, and they just got slaps on the wrist. And then you're this,

[2:00:17 - 2:00:22] ▶

like UFO interested, you know, you, you want to know if there's like free energy or whatever,

[2:00:22 - 2:00:26] ▶

like for your, for your own edification, like not because you want to do some like,

[2:00:26 - 2:00:31] ▶

you know, terrorist thing or like undermine, you know, American supremacy in any way or whatever.

[2:00:31 - 2:00:36] ▶

And like, they just come after you. Yeah. And so they changed the,

[2:00:36 - 2:00:40] ▶

Yeah. What's what's important to them. Is it someone like cleverly stealing money in a cyber forward

[2:00:40 - 2:00:47] ▶

way, which a lot of people have done or is it some, is it UFO truth? Is that?

[2:00:47 - 2:00:52] ▶

Yeah. Well, no, it, it, it might show that that actually, you know, hit a trigger point. Like the,

[2:00:52 - 2:00:57] ▶

the, the like cigar shaped tic-tac object, you know, flying in deep space, you know, that might be

[2:00:57 - 2:01:05] ▶

this really sensitive thing that they just really don't want to talk about. And then the non-true,

[2:01:05 - 2:01:09] ▶

the space supply chain thing. I could see that, you know, they don't want to talk about that either.

[2:01:09 - 2:01:13] ▶

But as a counterpoint to that, that information was already out. Donna has the shirt was out.

[2:01:13 - 2:01:19] ▶

So it's kind of, if it's already out, why go so heavy on this guy?

[2:01:19 - 2:01:22] ▶

As a counterpoint to that, like there's proof that you got into these sites, Donna here,

[2:01:22 - 2:01:28] ▶

it's always going to be this kind of like single sample size and if one story told,

[2:01:28 - 2:01:34] ▶

and you can always be like, that person was crazy. But like when your case, like they have like a,

[2:01:34 - 2:01:39] ▶

you know, there's a live arrest warrant out on you now, right? You can't go to the US now.

[2:01:39 - 2:01:43] ▶

I'm on the Interpol red list. You're on the Interpol red list. That's crazy.

[2:01:43 - 2:01:47] ▶

I don't even think I knew that. Hopefully I'm good. But yeah, like, like, you know,

[2:01:48 - 2:01:57] ▶

with, with, I think in your case, there's no arguing with the fact that you got into these

[2:01:58 - 2:02:03] ▶

sensitive sites. So the fact that you're saying you saw a tic-tac, you know, in deep space,

[2:02:03 - 2:02:09] ▶

but above earth, and then you saw these non-terrestrial, maybe 40 some odd officers, like,

[2:02:09 - 2:02:15] ▶

you know, that's, that's like pretty, that's like a little deeper, you know?

[2:02:16 - 2:02:19] ▶

Yeah. Yeah.

[2:02:19 - 2:02:20] ▶

But like, to the point that like, you shouldn't be blamed. It's like, you didn't sign

[2:02:20 - 2:02:25] ▶

something. You didn't, you didn't like sign up to like, you weren't like working at one of these

[2:02:25 - 2:02:29] ▶

places. You were like high in your, your girlfriend's.

[2:02:29 - 2:02:31] ▶

I'm trying to think how I would manage that if I was Intel. I was like, how have we managed this guy?

[2:02:31 - 2:02:35] ▶

And then I think they were probably quite happy when I got diagnosed with Asperger's in 2008,

[2:02:35 - 2:02:41] ▶

2009. Okay. He's mentally ill. He's fine then.

[2:02:41 - 2:02:44] ▶

Right. Right. Right.

[2:02:44 - 2:02:45] ▶

Like a put away. I would put him in the mentally ill draw.

[2:02:46 - 2:02:49] ▶

Do you ever think like the, the chip is somehow either monitoring you, you a, or b it's like feeding

[2:02:50 - 2:02:57] ▶

you ideas or anything? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[2:02:57 - 2:03:01] ▶

You start glitching right now. Yeah. Yeah.

[2:03:01 - 2:03:03] ▶

Do you ever think it has some sort of, I don't know.

[2:03:03 - 2:03:06] ▶

Uh, no, my mind feels the same as it always has. Okay.

[2:03:06 - 2:03:09] ▶

But I do want to do some further scanning with my more modern.

[2:03:09 - 2:03:13] ▶

You should. Yeah. Yeah.

[2:03:13 - 2:03:15] ▶

So interesting.

[2:03:15 - 2:03:16] ▶

I wish doctor, what was his name? The guy that used to scan implants. He's dead now.

[2:03:16 - 2:03:20] ▶

Roger Lear. Roger Lear. Yeah.

[2:03:20 - 2:03:22] ▶

I wish he was around and could come to the UK.

[2:03:22 - 2:03:24] ▶

Yeah. He'd be the perfect guy. Yeah.

[2:03:24 - 2:03:26] ▶

I might know of somebody else who can help you out. So later.

[2:03:26 - 2:03:30] ▶

Yeah, exactly.

[2:03:30 - 2:03:31] ▶

Explain what's going on quickly.

[2:03:31 - 2:03:32] ▶

What is that?

[2:03:32 - 2:03:32] ▶

I can't turn my phone off here. Look, look, yeah. Let's document all of this.

[2:03:32 - 2:03:37] ▶

You can see my finger is on the power button and both. This is like a hard reset, but my fingers

[2:03:37 - 2:03:43] ▶

on the power button and volume up and volume down at the same time.

[2:03:43 - 2:03:49] ▶

And nothing.

[2:03:50 - 2:03:51] ▶

Nothing.

[2:03:51 - 2:03:51] ▶

That's never happened before.

[2:03:52 - 2:03:53] ▶

Absolutely. It's never happened before.

[2:03:54 - 2:03:55] ▶

It's insane.

[2:03:56 - 2:03:57] ▶

But you're with Gary McKinnon.

[2:03:57 - 2:03:58] ▶

And I'm with Gary McKinnon, who has a live arrest.

[2:03:58 - 2:04:02] ▶

And famously said, I didn't do it.

[2:04:02 - 2:04:04] ▶

This was the, you know, everything I'd hoped it would be this conversation. It was so fun.

[2:04:06 - 2:04:10] ▶

And I really hope you pull off this Byfield Brown effect. I think it would be this beautiful

[2:04:11 - 2:04:15] ▶

kind of vindication. I'm not saying what you did was fine, but I think you were completely persecuted in

[2:04:15 - 2:04:25] ▶

this horrible way. And I love the fact that by the way, the UK rallied behind you and you ended up,

[2:04:25 - 2:04:30] ▶

you know, singing with, uh, you know, David Gilmore, you know, the lead singer, the Pink Floyd, you know,

[2:04:30 - 2:04:36] ▶

and like you have all these people, you're like kind of this people's champion.

[2:04:36 - 2:04:39] ▶

Crosby, Stills and Nash, man. One of my favorite hippie bands from when I was young.

[2:04:39 - 2:04:42] ▶

Wait, what, what did, what Crosby, Stills and Nash?

[2:04:42 - 2:04:44] ▶

Yeah.

[2:04:44 - 2:04:45] ▶

They were like rallying behind you as well?

[2:04:45 - 2:04:48] ▶

Yeah, they did. Um, they just like mentioned me in one song at one of their gigs, but you know,

[2:04:48 - 2:04:52] ▶

thousands of people.

[2:04:52 - 2:04:53] ▶

Ah, I didn't know that.

[2:04:53 - 2:04:54] ▶

Yeah.

[2:04:54 - 2:04:54] ▶

So cool.

[2:04:54 - 2:04:55] ▶

You've seen all these bands I'd love when I was little. I was like, God, it was,

[2:04:55 - 2:04:58] ▶

it was crazy because you're really depressed, but you're seeing all your musical heroes.

[2:04:58 - 2:05:01] ▶

Yeah.

[2:05:01 - 2:05:02] ▶

Vouching for you.

[2:05:02 - 2:05:03] ▶

But you're also, didn't you, you sang with David Gilmore?

[2:05:03 - 2:05:06] ▶

Yeah. And, uh, Chrissy Hynde and Bob Geldof, but I didn't actually,

[2:05:06 - 2:05:11] ▶

only sang in the same studio at the same time with Chrissy Hynde. So I didn't get to meet David

[2:05:11 - 2:05:15] ▶

Gilmore or, uh, Bob Geldof.

[2:05:15 - 2:05:16] ▶

Okay.

[2:05:16 - 2:05:17] ▶

Unfortunately.

[2:05:17 - 2:05:17] ▶

Well, wild. Thank you, Theresa May for making the right decision and, uh, you know, letting,

[2:05:17 - 2:05:23] ▶

letting you go. And, uh, I think the U S should drop their arrest warrant and, uh,

[2:05:23 - 2:05:28] ▶

I think so too, that I could go on holiday.

[2:05:28 - 2:05:30] ▶

Yeah. Uh, yeah. So you can go and, you know, go on a nice vacation and, uh, yeah,

[2:05:30 - 2:05:34] ▶

hopefully next time I see you, it's in the States and, uh,

[2:05:34 - 2:05:36] ▶

Yeah. That'd be fantastic.

[2:05:36 - 2:05:38] ▶

It'd be great.

[2:05:38 - 2:05:39] ▶

Thanks for a great interview, man.

[2:05:39 - 2:05:40] ▶

Absolutely. Gary. No, it was an honor. It was a lot of fun. And, uh, yeah, hopefully,

[2:05:40 - 2:05:44] ▶

you know, I think we made a little bit of progress here too,

[2:05:44 - 2:05:46] ▶

in terms of piecing some things together.

[2:05:46 - 2:05:47] ▶

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Logistics, supply chain.

[2:05:47 - 2:05:50] ▶

Exactly.

[2:05:50 - 2:05:51] ▶

Oh, sweet. All right.

[2:05:51 - 2:05:53] ▶

All right.

[2:05:53 - 2:05:57] ▶

Alchemist, did you enjoy that? If you want the full picture,

[2:05:59 - 2:06:03] ▶

head over to the American Alchemy magazine we just launched on Substack.

[2:06:03 - 2:06:08] ▶

That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into every

[2:06:08 - 2:06:13] ▶

video with weekly articles exploring all of the strange forgotten and conspiratorial corners of space,

[2:06:13 - 2:06:19] ▶

history, and high weirdness. So join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am including the full

[2:06:19 - 2:06:27] ▶

link in the description of this video.

[2:06:27 - 2:06:31] ▶

We'll see you next time.

[2:06:31 - 2:06:33] ▶

We'll see you next time.

[2:06:33 - 2:06:35] ▶

Bye.

[2:06:35 - 2:06:37] ▶

Bye.

[2:06:37 - 2:06:39] ▶

Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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