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It's very hard to handle.
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And what were, so what, just so the people have transparency out there because you have
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said this publicly, what is it that you explain was the context with this?
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As in, you received an order from someone at some point that said, you got to shoot this
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And I feel really uncomfortable talking about this because this is a credibility destroyer
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in my opinion and it really bothers me.
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And I don't want to be connected to it.
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It's going to bring back.
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It's going to bring back.
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And I've already told him that.
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All right, so if you're going to make those claims, I'm walking out the door.
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I could tell you it's already bad enough.
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Yeah, because right now we're treading a line where.
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James, what do you mean that coffee's not as strong as you like?
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I put like 12 scoops in there for four cups.
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You should have done 24.
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Jesus Christ, your life expectancy.
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Hello, I drink whiskey and I like strong coffee.
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I like this food to stay upright or dissolve.
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You know what I mean?
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All right, well, let's get to it.
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What we said before the break.
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So Jason, just starting at the beginning, where did you grow up?
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Born to a full blooded English woman and a US Army sergeant.
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So I was born over in Harrogate is where I was born in England.
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I was a US citizen by birth because Kennedy had just signed into law that, you know, if you're born to a service member overseas, you automatically become a US citizen there.
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Wasn't he whacked like four days before you were born?
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Yeah, before I was born.
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So I was glad that he passed that before I anyway.
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Anyway, that's where I was born.
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I spent a few years there.
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We did a quick tour to Japan.
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And that was kind of nice.
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So I was near Hokkaido, very beautiful place.
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And then we went to Fort Devons.
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And that's Tuesday's.
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How old are you now?
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And we ended up going there later on in life when I was graduating high school.
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And my dad actually retired out of Fort Devons around 1980.
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And that's when I graduated 1981 from high school.
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Did you want to join the military because of your dad?
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It was kind of weird.
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He said, don't go in the army.
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He said, well, he said, all I know how to do is kill people.
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He said, I want you to learn of trade.
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You go in the Navy or you go in the Air Force.
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But he said, don't go in the Army or the Marines.
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All I know how to do is kill people.
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He's been special forces most of his life.
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He was a green beret.
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All that kind of stuff.
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He was a very good soldier, a very good warrior.
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So he was on these bases, but he's getting called the different places around the world to do things.
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Did he ever tell you about specific places?
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Later in life, we started talking about we had very parallel experiences and things that we'd seen.
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You know, some of the touching go things we did experienced.
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Sometimes we'd not laugh about it.
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And sometimes we'd be hopped mad about what somebody put us through.
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But we kind of talked about it.
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And yeah, we had a lot of the same things because he was an intel guy.
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But he was also, you know, not in front lines all the time.
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But he did do some of that, but he would do some of the same things that I did.
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But he was an intel, so he was like a green beret and stuff.
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But eventually he was doing things that were, I guess, like,
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one of the guys that would like you take a briefcase of money and go pay off somebody in the town up in Vietnam.
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Oh, I like those guys.
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And there were stuff that he got experienced that he was like, I can't even hang out with these guys.
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They talk about them killing everything in the house.
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And he said he was so sick and tired of debriefing it.
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And he was like, I asked to get off of that mission.
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And there was some of the other things that he would talk about that I was like,
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you know, kind of been there done that too.
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But you didn't talk about this stuff as you're alluding to until later in life.
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So it wasn't like when you were a kid.
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Like, do you remember having many conversations with your dad about what he did during the day?
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He was gone most of the time.
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It wasn't a fun childhood.
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He was very violent when he was drunk and he was drunk all the time.
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And that was the unfortunate thing.
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And did you tack your mom?
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At certain points, yeah, they got in some really heated arguments and ended up physical.
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But he got help for it.
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I don't want anybody to think anything that he, he died a very honorable man.
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He finally got rid of the booze and he became the dad and everything that he was supposed to be all his life.
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He just took him a while.
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Were you afraid of him when you were a kid?
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And he wasn't as you said, he wasn't around a lot.
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So your mom was really raising you.
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And were you close with her?
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She's the only survivor out of the old, my parents.
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Because both my parents got divorced at a certain after Germany.
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We went to Augsburg when my dad was working and they got a divorce at that point.
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Oh, that's a tough age.
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They were together most of your childhood.
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Well, we had a space where, like I was saying, we were at Fort Devons.
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And then I guess he and my mom weren't seeing eye to eye.
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So he just said, well, I'm going to go on a tour and be at NAMM.
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I'm just going to buy you a house where do you want to live?
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And she said, San Jose, California near my sister.
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And that's where we ended up.
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And then two years later, after he was done with his tours of duty.
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And he was ready to reengage with the family.
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We all met him in Augsburg, Germany.
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But that's also where the worst of the fighting happened.
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How many siblings did you have?
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I had two at the time.
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And then we have another third sister as well.
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So that was from the second marriage.
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So I have three sisters.
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Are you close with them today or?
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And I would imagine that, you know, their experience at childhood is pretty similar
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as far as like the mom, dad dynamic.
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They were a little afraid.
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And what did they go into the military at all?
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No, none of them are military.
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I'm the last one, I think, in my generation.
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None of my kids have joined the military either.
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So you're even though things were a little rough while you were growing up with
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your dad and later he got his problems figured out, you know, you were afraid
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of him yet you wanted to follow in his footsteps career wise.
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Why do you think that is?
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Well, it's just that out of everything else, as a son, you, you, you're, you're
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love for your mom and your dad are always unbreakable.
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I mean, yeah, things got terrible and I would wonder why did dad do that, you
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know, but I never, ever broke my love for him.
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It never broke my love for him.
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And on top of that, he was the one that was showing me how to like, we had these
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beautiful moments as well, you know, when he hadn't been drinking and we, he
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had a holiday like a Christmas, I remember sitting down with him and he showed
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me how to do wax my sled.
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So it would go faster down the hills on everything and he showed me how to do
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And we shall act it and everything made it look really good.
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So I had a really cool looking ride, you know, yeah.
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So we did that together.
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And so we had some really beautiful moments too.
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And that's kind of what I, you tend to want to hang on to those moments.
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I think more than you do the negative.
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And I think that's what I carried through with is that my dad was still a
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very good man when it came down to him.
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I knew that it was usually related when he, to, his bad times were always related
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to when he'd hang out and came home late, you know, and I knew he was drunk
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because he could tell the difference.
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So you learned to compartmentalize certain aspects of him the way I'm seeing
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him correctly from wrong here.
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It's like on the one hand, he's the badass military guy who does very
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important things that I'm like, oh, that's like super hero type stuff.
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On the other hand, you have to have an understanding of a young age of what
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substance abuse looks like.
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And when he's on that, he's not a nice guy and does some bad things.
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And then on the other hand, when he's home and not on substances and
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spending time with you, he actually is your real dad.
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And as far as like there's a real loving relationship there.
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So you kind of have to straddle these three worlds.
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Yeah. And you're in survival mode when you're, when you're ever going to household
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just like this where people are violent.
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And it happens a lot off, more often than you think.
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And you just learn how to survive.
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And the way you survive is you hang on to the good moments.
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And I think that's kind of what I did.
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My siblings did also.
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And that's what got us through.
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And honestly, I did, he would take me out, you know, when he was sometimes on duty
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and stuff that's like, I remember him showing, he got permission to show me
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I was the best day in my life.
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I mean, there's guns on racks, there were grenade launchers, all those
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stuff. And he's like, what's this?
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And he's like, that's this.
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And I'm like, just, it was like a kid in a candy store.
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So there were those moments that I really wanted to be like him because I was
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like, man, I'd loved to shoot all those guns and stuff like that.
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So that's why I respected him.
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That's why I grew up and I wanted to go into the army.
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And then I'm when he told me he didn't want to.
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I was like, you got to be kidding.
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You know, I'm doing it.
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And but when he explained it to me, it's like, that kind of makes sense.
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So you went into the air force, not the army.
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And I went in the air force and came to part of the chair force.
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But in the military, like obviously falling in the footsteps in that way.
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But that's a real testament to you that like you, you got into such one
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and most like respectable professions you can get into.
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And obviously we're going to go through it.
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But you had a lot of tours at duty there in a sense, like a lot of different
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success and everything.
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But you had to endure childhood where you see things that no child is supposed
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to have to see because again, it's when, you know, to be respectful of your
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father, he had a substance abuse problem.
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And it's when he's on that that you see these things.
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But like, you know, to be in the military, to be in the military,
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be in the air force, you have to be able to obviously be a high functioning
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individual, which you proved you could be.
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But do you think there's also some things from your childhood?
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Like we're going to get to your military career and things you saw.
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But do you think there's things from your childhood that develop coping mechanisms
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and possible PTSD from some of the things you had to wait?
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I've actually had clinical visit or psychiatrist tell me so that yes.
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And we actually did regressive therapy for my, well,
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it's they, they sit you down, they get to know you in your story and then,
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you know, they tell you write it all down all these memories you have of your
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And we're going to have to relive those, you know, not under hypnosis or
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anything, but you, we talk it over.
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And sometimes I'd cry and I'd be angry all over again.
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But the whole idea is that you kind of tear the scab off.
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Relive the experience.
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And then you've got somebody who's qualified there as a psychiatrist that can help
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walk you through that and make you realize chasing your kid.
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Then you couldn't have prevented your mother from getting hurt.
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You realize this now.
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Okay, try to nurture you that that feeling and let that,
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let that part of you realize that it's okay.
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You didn't, you didn't have control of your dad and your mom fighting.
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You know, and that's the kind of context you get from regressions is that you
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have to tear all that terribleness off, relive that memory and then get,
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give it new context.
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So even in a way, maybe a misunderstanding this, but it's like, you were just a kid,
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but you felt like you were carrying like some guilt for that for not being able to
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That was the hardest thing for me to do.
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It's just I wanted, when they asked me about it, I would break down a cry.
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And I'd be like, you got to understand you're, you're cowering in your own bedroom
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sometimes when he would come home late at night.
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I had exactly the same thing happen.
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I was going to try to kill my stepdad with a baseball bat.
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Yeah, I ended up getting, I watched him abuse my mother.
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And I was like, I'm going to kill this guy.
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And my mother was throwing across the room pregnant with my younger sister.
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And I saw this whole thing and I looked at the baseball bat.
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This is the first time I ever had telepathy in my life.
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I looked at the baseball bat.
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I was in bed because the fight ended up in my bedroom and I was 12.
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And I looked at the baseball bat and I was like, I'm going to kill this guy with
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I don't know what else to do.
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I mean, this guy was four, 15 times stronger than I was and he was drunk.
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And I looked at the baseball bat and I looked at my mother.
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My mother was like on her back, she got thrown through the closet.
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She was on her back pregnant with my younger sister.
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And she looked at me and she did, we communicated like that.
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If you miss, we're all dead.
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But I remember looking at going, I was 12.
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If you know what I mean, but that's neither here nor there.
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Prize picks run your game.
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Yeah, and so unpack this way later.
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You do you unpack all that later on and I could tell you that one of the experiences you had to relive was the night when he nearly killed my mother.
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What happened that he just came home drunk and wanted her to cook him a breakfast at 3 a.m. in the morning and was yelling at her about it because he was just drunk and he was hungry.
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He wake her up out of bed.
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Yeah, kicked her in the yeah, kicked her with his cowboy boots on everything.
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Were you asleep and woke up and heard the whole house woke up and the thing was is that you just shut up.
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You cower in your room.
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You just wait till it's over and this was the night when I knew if I didn't do something my mom would probably be in a hospital or dead.
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I had to I got I finally got the guts to stand up to him is what I did.
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I was just tears were rolling down my face because my my door was kind of facing the wall that he had my mother pinned against and he was literally choking her and she couldn't breathe and I was like I have to do something.
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And I stood up and I don't know what possessed me but I walked out and I just kind of grabbed him other shoulders and pulled him back and he kind of like.
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Let go of my mother and he looks at me with this shocked look in his face like you're standing in front of me.
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What the hell you know and I just said dead you are killing mom.
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And he just kind of woke up he woke up he got sober real quick at that point and he went right back to his bedroom and then I grabbed my mom and she was still kind of gasping.
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I said are you okay you still can you breathe and she was like you know she's trying to get her breath back.
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So that's what happened.
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How old are you when that happens?
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That was when I was 16 15 16.
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It was getting near the end of their marriage as well.
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That's in Germany when I was going on.
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Yeah, I was in Oxford.
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So that's what you have to live through and yeah you do have to parse it and you do have to think about you know what the situation's like.
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Do you think part of me and this might be totally off base here.
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I'm sorry if it is but do you think part of like joining like literally the military like going into the Air Force or something like that is also.
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I don't want to even say like rage but channel some of that energy into something that you view is like the highest level of being productive.
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Yeah, I could agree with that because one of the things that happened early in life because the situation at home was so bad.
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Was there's a part of me at a very young age or I remember honestly thinking I'm never going to be like that.
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I didn't hate my dad but it was like I'm never going to be like that.
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I never struck anybody out of anger and things like this.
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I mean you have yelled at my kids sometimes out of frustration but I've never really done any of that like he did.
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And I never really got into alcohol like he did.
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I mean I've had my party days for about two years in in Sembach but after that I kind of was like I'm done.
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So I made good on my promise that I wouldn't be like that.
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And I've been that all my life.
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I mean you know a few on some beers or something and we'll have a great time but I don't get you know totally drunk.
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So I've made good on that promise to myself even as a kid that I knew that I wouldn't be like that.
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But at the same time there were some other parts of this that took maturity to get through like pretty soon after that choking incident.
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I just told you about my dad.
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My sisters all are very much more scared than I was at the time they said to you're the only person that can tell mom and dad they needed to worse because I don't want him to hurt mom anymore.
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And I had to sit down with my dad and tell him it's okay to get it to worse.
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I don't think I've ever heard that before.
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Well I was on behalf of my sisters and it actually stopped things from happening because we had another incident about a week later where you knew it.
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You know you put a bullet through my mom's head.
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Yeah he went out after her and he was going to put a bullet.
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He actually loaded the gun in front of us kids and said he pulled out a three fifty seven mega.
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He said these are real bullets.
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And he said I'm going out to kill your mother.
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They had to call the cops and luckily they caught him in the parking lot when he was he pulled it out and he tried to take a push up.
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And they didn't they didn't charge him for this.
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No because nobody was hurt and that's the way the army kind of is back then.
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It was the old brown shoe days.
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It was totally different now where you know you get all you have to do is post a meme and poof you're done.
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It's not a wasn't like that back then people were actually in bars getting in fights and that was okay.
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How did your dad react when you sat down with them?
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I guess in a sober moment obviously to tell him like you're a fifteen sixteen year old kid his son telling him like dad get a divorce.
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Like how does he even respond to that?
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He kind of just looked at me for a minute and I could tell he was mulling it over.
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He was like very surprised that I even said it.
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But then after a long pause he just said yeah you know maybe so.
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And then he just thought about it and I walked away and went in my room and just read some books or whatever else I felt like doing that day.
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And he thought about it and sure enough a little while later that's exactly what happened.
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That's like I said I've never heard anything like that.
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That's that takes a whole thing.
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Well the whole thing is balls.
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You know what silly about the whole thing is that after that event and they got their divorce.
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My mom and dad sat us all down as kids said who do you want to live with?
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I was the only one that wanted to live with my dad.
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My dad thought I did it out of sympathy or some other lower emotion in my mind.
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Because later on in life when he was in his fifties or sixties we had a heart to heart and he asked me why did you do that?
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He said all your sisters went with your mother you were the only one who stayed with me and I said you needed me.
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And he said and ended up this was after he'd been through the alcohol anonymous and it still brings tears to my eyes.
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But he literally broke down right then because we had been through so much.
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And he said you remember when you came to that meeting that and I finally confessed to the whole group of the AA folks there.
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And they said that I was part of his reason for healing.
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He said I needed somebody to love me.
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He said because I'd done so many bad things he said I didn't even know why you stayed.
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He said but I was very thankful at the same time and we got to know each other.
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And after ten years of going to AA he finally gave it up and then he finally said I get it.
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And when he brought me into that meeting and he looked directly at my face and he said I'm done son.
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But he told everybody that it's your love that got me through this.
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Obviously you have a huge and I can see it on your face right now obviously.
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But you obviously have a huge heart because on one hand you want to protect your younger sisters and everything.
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On the other hand you want to protect your mom who can't protect herself.
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On the other hand you love your dad.
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You just wish you didn't do this one thing because it makes him a horrible person.
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But you were able to put that aside and say like this is my dad he can get better and he needs me to get better.
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Yeah I don't know what told me that inside.
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I just knew that I loved him and I didn't want him to go through it alone.
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I knew that that was really my driving force.
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And actually after ten years of him finally trying to get through recovery because he'd start and he'd stop.
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He'd start and he'd stop.
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But it took him ten years to finally give it up.
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And then he became them all the man and dad the husband everything he should have been all his life.
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That's a great story.
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That's a great happening to the story.
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And honestly that's what I waited for.
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I mean me and my sisters were actually sitting there on his deathbed later on in life.
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And my mother, my mother, who needed divorce at that time came and they were on one side of the living room.
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Me and my sisters were on the other and they held each other's hands and they both said we love each other.
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And I broke down and my sisters broke down.
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I was like this is what my life was all about right here.
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And what I went through.
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Because that was the moment that I was like they finally reconciled and about a month later he passed away.
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So I was very happy to see that moment happen.
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Yeah. And you made it happen in a lot of ways.
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Yeah. So that's just the kind of stuff that happens.
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But yeah, that's PTSD for you.
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But there's a part of it that there's a it teaches your lessons as well once you learn how to cope with it.
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And that's what I had to get through.
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And I'm still getting through.
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I mean it never really leaves you.
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You always have the emotions there.
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And then you always have the memories there.
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What's in the middle of all this because you're living on army bases and stuff.
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You're in other countries.
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So you're an art your US Army base kid.
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We hear about this all the time with folks whose parents were in the military.
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But what was school like for you?
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Were you good in school?
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Because obviously like you have a lot of distractions at home.
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And you know, you kind of have to raise your health yourself in some ways.
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Like how are you doing in your actual with your peers and things like that?
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Actually, it wasn't all that good in the early early days because like you said,
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you know, I had the specs on, you know, the glasses.
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They didn't even know I had a problem until the fifth grade.
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Oh, so you were blind as a bat.
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I was blind as a bat.
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But as soon as the world of vision, I was given the world of vision.
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I used to pull straight A's.
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The only time they dropped off was in high school.
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And I got D's in a couple of classes, but I still passed.
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What motivated you to like obviously you're smart.
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But like what motivated you also put the work in when there's so much bullshit going on at home.
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It's not like you understand it.
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It's a type of escape and a feeling of self accomplishment.
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That you wouldn't get in the family group because I know my mom was very nurturing,
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but my dad could sometimes be over critical, you know, even helping him, you know, with the sled.
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There was a couple of times he yelled at me because it didn't grab the right tool from the toolbox.
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You know, and then he would say something else derogatory about, you know, my inability to think right or something stupid.
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And those were the things that would kind of tear down at me.
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So the schoolwork was kind of a nice little escape.
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And I could leave all my crap behind and I could just focus on that.
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And it gave me a way to feel proud of myself that I didn't always get at home.
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But you had said earlier, you were also, you're also an artist like like you enjoy art.
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Why did you discover that?
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Actually, that was a little girl in the playground.
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Her and her friends were drawing pictures.
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And I remember walking over and she's drawing the pictures.
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I was like, wow, those are good.
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And she got real embarrassed. And she was like, oh, you can't see these.
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So I was like, I was inspired by that because I was like, wow,
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I wonder if I could get that good.
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You know, and I started drawing from a very early age like five years old on.
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What would you draw?
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I would draw airplanes because World War II was a big thing.
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I used to live dinosaurs too.
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I'd get whatever dinosaur books I get my hands on.
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World War II books of dog fights of airplanes.
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And then I remember in fifth grade, I switched off to hot rods and other sports cars and things like this.
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And I drew all those.
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And then I got into landscapes as well, drawing trees and all these kinds of things.
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So I just kind of kept expanding out and trying new things until I finally got good at it.
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And that's another escape, obviously.
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It's a beautiful scene.
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I've always had, yeah, that's kind of, yeah, that's kind of like an abusive relationship.
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That's what kind of happens sometimes.
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People get really into a different world with their hobbies.
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And I did that, you know, guitar drawing, whatever escape I could get into.
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How did your sisters like escape from things like what was their thing?
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We did a lot of getting the hell out of there.
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My mom also thought of that too because they're a noxper in particular when violence really started to escalate.
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We used to go to the D.Y.A., which is the defense youth organization.
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And I was selling candy in the candy bar, but they would have the desert and disco was around in 1975, 76.
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And my sister was really good at dancing.
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She always used to get the prizes.
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But she'd be out on the dance floor and I'd be back in the candy bar, giving people stuff.
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And it was just a way to get my mom would take us to a safe place in other words, to that place.
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And she would be there all the time.
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So we dedicated a lot of time to all the other youth from our family just to get out of that environment.
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And it was a good place.
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I mean, we knew a lot of people.
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We went on a lot of tours because the youth organization would take us to places like Abraham or Gal.
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New Schwanzstein Castle.
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All these really cool places to go.
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You know, in Nuremberg where they make the clocks and everything.
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Did a couple trials there too.
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If I'd been older, I definitely would have been trying.
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But yeah, there was a lot of really good things and good memories from that.
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And honestly, I can say that my mom provided a lot of that.
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Yeah, and you know what?
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It's also like even in some of the darker stories, I always try to find some silver linings.
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But it's clear that you guys had to learn a great skill for the rest of your life,
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which is to be incredibly independent and reliant on yourself because of what you're dealing with.
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And also you're, you know, you're in foreign places too.
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It's harder, but you found a way.
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And you're uprooting your friendships with some folks and then starting new ones after every three years or so.
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There's a difference to the military life.
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And that's part of it.
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Have you and your mom like since you started unpacking things like this with therapy and stuff like that.
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Have you and your mom had a chance to have a private discussions about how she saw things when this was coming up?
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It's very therapeutic for her and I both.
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And sometimes it's just event, you know, especially for my mom because she never actually got the same therapy I did.
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I mean, I wasn't the military.
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We get, you know, the medical benefits of talking to people like psychiatrists and stuff like that.
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Specifically about PTSD because they deal with that a lot.
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My mom on the other hand, she was a registered nurse, but she never got to see anybody about these kinds of things.
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She just dealt with it all her life.
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So sometimes when I talk to her, it just comes out very raw.
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Just like we were, we're still there because she's never been through regression therapy like I have to re-context all of that.
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Well, that's a lot, man.
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I mean, before you ever even start this career, we're going to be talking about like you, you live six lifetimes over and had to experience things.
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So I appreciate you sharing that with everyone to get a little more context.
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But there's a lot of good there too that we're not focusing on either.
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There was times when dad was helping me ride my first bike and all these other things.
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Like I said, there's some really beautiful memories in all of that.
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The full circle moment though you talk about with when your dad was was nearly passing and like the whole family is together.
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And obviously he's been a great guy for many years now off of alcohol and stuff and everyone gets to see that.
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I was so proud of it.
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I even, I really haven't heard a story like that before.
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That's, that's a happy ending, right?
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Well, I hope other people take encouragement because that's something that everybody needs no matter how what depth that your dad or your whoever is abusive, they need love to.
[0:29:22 - 0:29:32] ▶
And honestly, it may take 10, 20 years for them to finally realize that they are.
[0:29:33 - 0:29:38] ▶
And that might just be the one moment that they need just like my dad did and then he finally realizes for himself.
[0:29:38 - 0:29:43] ▶
Yeah. And you know what?
[0:29:43 - 0:29:44] ▶
It's also a good example, you know, in doing this job, I'm so fortunate to be able to do this for a living and talk with so many fascinating people like you across all different subject matters.
[0:29:44 - 0:29:54] ▶
But what ties everyone together is they all have human experiences.
[0:29:54 - 0:29:57] ▶
They all got their background, their life, how they came up, their environment.
[0:29:57 - 0:30:01] ▶
And you know, we live in a society now of the internet where everything has to be zero or a hundred.
[0:30:01 - 0:30:07] ▶
We either have to vote no or vote yes or one or two or black or white.
[0:30:07 - 0:30:12] ▶
But the world is, it's so gray.
[0:30:12 - 0:30:14] ▶
And you know, people are very, very imperfect.
[0:30:14 - 0:30:17] ▶
Not the least, which is me.
[0:30:17 - 0:30:18] ▶
And you know, when, when you see a full circle where someone can even do some objectively terrible things like your dad did and you the son who had to see this.
[0:30:18 - 0:30:28] ▶
You can see that come all the way back and see the good in him and see the good have a chance to come out on the other side as well in the context of what is a full life.
[0:30:28 - 0:30:36] ▶
And then to have that moment where the family kind of comes together, that's a beautiful, beautiful thing man.
[0:30:36 - 0:30:41] ▶
You're right. Looking back on it, I can see the lessons in life and how it helped me to mature and become the person I am.
[0:30:41 - 0:30:48] ▶
Because no matter what your experiences are, if you're not learning from them, you're not doing it right.
[0:30:48 - 0:30:53] ▶
And I always tried to take what was bad and at least learn from it.
[0:30:53 - 0:30:58] ▶
You know, and try to make it better.
[0:30:59 - 0:31:01] ▶
And that's something that I like.
[0:31:01 - 0:31:02] ▶
Again, early early on in life, I learned because I was like, you know, I can either make life suck even more.
[0:31:02 - 0:31:08] ▶
Or I can finally start, you know, I'll go play with my friends today rather than having to deal with this crappy feeling I have right now that, you know, dad's out getting drunk and I know something's going to happen.
[0:31:08 - 0:31:17] ▶
I'll just go out there and escape this.
[0:31:17 - 0:31:19] ▶
And you learn how to cope like that, but then you start to also learn, you know, all these mature things, things that help you mature later in life because you can reflect on all that for sure.
[0:31:19 - 0:31:28] ▶
And realize that these are the ways people get through things.
[0:31:28 - 0:31:30] ▶
Like you said, the gray area of life that is not so, you know, if I'd listened to half of the people that wanted me to do one thing with my dad and not the other.
[0:31:30 - 0:31:38] ▶
Yeah, they would have him jailed for sure.
[0:31:38 - 0:31:42] ▶
But here it is. He needed love.
[0:31:42 - 0:31:44] ▶
I remember just a couple years ago, the stepdad that I was talking about earlier when I was going to try and kill him with the baseball.
[0:31:44 - 0:31:51] ▶
I didn't say kill him. I was going to try to neutralize him because he was a, he was a clear danger to my family.
[0:31:51 - 0:31:58] ▶
And I don't know if death was on the mind, but I wanted to neutralize the threat basically.
[0:31:59 - 0:32:05] ▶
But I got contacted in the middle of the pandemic and hit one of his daughters, not one of his daughters reached out to me and she's like, Dan's on his deathbed.
[0:32:05 - 0:32:15] ▶
And he's got, you know, 24, 48 hours to live.
[0:32:15 - 0:32:18] ▶
And is there anything you'd like to relay a message to? I thought it was kind of odd that she reached out to me.
[0:32:18 - 0:32:24] ▶
And I don't have the fondest memories, obviously.
[0:32:24 - 0:32:26] ▶
But I was like, you know what?
[0:32:26 - 0:32:28] ▶
I wish him well on his next journey.
[0:32:28 - 0:32:30] ▶
You can please, you can relay that to him. I didn't want to give him any negative.
[0:32:30 - 0:32:34] ▶
I wish he was you well on your next, you know.
[0:32:34 - 0:32:37] ▶
And that was, that was, yeah, that was how it all ended.
[0:32:37 - 0:32:40] ▶
Because I like to think of people as giving them another opportunity to, you know, that there's some good there.
[0:32:40 - 0:32:47] ▶
People are going to have to answer for things they do, especially if they're not repentant about it or anything.
[0:32:49 - 0:32:52] ▶
But, you know, the older I get, the more I understand when you hold that hate in your heart.
[0:32:52 - 0:32:56] ▶
And you hold on to those grudges and, you know, there's natural human emotions you have in the moment with things for sure.
[0:32:57 - 0:33:04] ▶
But when you let that carry you down it, it ends up having a bigger negative impact on you more than anything.
[0:33:04 - 0:33:10] ▶
You know, and when you, when you free them of that with a level of forgiveness or just, you know, a sign of goodwill like you did,
[0:33:10 - 0:33:19] ▶
it's actually more powerful for you.
[0:33:19 - 0:33:21] ▶
And they're going to deal with their maker, how they deal with them.
[0:33:21 - 0:33:24] ▶
And then, what do you say now that, because now you've matured from all of that, just like me, I think up back on those days.
[0:33:24 - 0:33:31] ▶
And now I'm able to actually think about, you know, my mind is what I make of it.
[0:33:31 - 0:33:36] ▶
If I allow positive or negative in there, it's just like they talk about those wolves, you know, whichever wolf you feed is going to be the one that's stronger.
[0:33:36 - 0:33:43] ▶
And would you say that that's kind of how you feel now is that you've fed the right wolf, rather than letting the other one just, you know, eat the meat and the...
[0:33:44 - 0:33:52] ▶
I said to, when we closed the deal, and I was losing all the money that I made from a moment of contact and hadn't even paid back our investors fully,
[0:33:52 - 0:34:05] ▶
when the deal was finalized and I had to walk away from it all.
[0:34:05 - 0:34:09] ▶
I relayed a message to the guy who ripped me off and I said, tell him, I said, this is Danny Grant.
[0:34:10 - 0:34:16] ▶
I said, Danny, you tell the gentleman, no, keep his name out, that I wish him well, and then I forgive him.
[0:34:16 - 0:34:22] ▶
He goes, oh my God, really?
[0:34:22 - 0:34:25] ▶
I said, yeah, let him know.
[0:34:25 - 0:34:27] ▶
Because to me, that was a way of like, hey, she'd happens and it's absolutely diabolical.
[0:34:27 - 0:34:33] ▶
I'd like to think that this guy didn't deliberately rip me off and that I'm going to forgive him.
[0:34:33 - 0:34:38] ▶
And it was just like, was that the guy that was...
[0:34:38 - 0:34:43] ▶
Come on James, I'll think of his name in a second.
[0:34:43 - 0:34:46] ▶
Mahamik Gandhi apparently blessed his killer.
[0:34:50 - 0:34:52] ▶
Yeah, the guy killed him and as he was dying, he blessed him.
[0:34:53 - 0:34:56] ▶
Oh, that comes so powerful.
[0:34:56 - 0:34:59] ▶
Yeah, so anyway, I'm that, you know...
[0:35:01 - 0:35:03] ▶
So you did experience that thing?
[0:35:03 - 0:35:04] ▶
I did, because I felt like I just wanted to kind of rise above it and let it go.
[0:35:04 - 0:35:10] ▶
Don't harbor that ill-m-m-m.
[0:35:12 - 0:35:13] ▶
Am I upset about it?
[0:35:13 - 0:35:14] ▶
I'd be lying to say I wasn't and did it really devastate me financially.
[0:35:15 - 0:35:18] ▶
But I'm going to pick myself up by the bootstraps.
[0:35:20 - 0:35:22] ▶
My dad's used to say to me, life's what happens when you're busy making other plans.
[0:35:22 - 0:35:25] ▶
And I have to say, my wife shows that same thing because one of my kids got to be used in a daycare
[0:35:32 - 0:35:35] ▶
when I was in the Air Force.
[0:35:35 - 0:35:37] ▶
Yeah, my second born, she was abusing the daycare.
[0:35:37 - 0:35:43] ▶
We had two years of pure hell sleepless nights, anger about why, why, why.
[0:35:43 - 0:35:50] ▶
And my wife, actually, in the courtroom, she just looked right at the daycare provider and said,
[0:35:50 - 0:35:55] ▶
And I told my wife, I don't know how you could do that.
[0:35:56 - 0:36:00] ▶
But I understand it because I had to do the same for my dad.
[0:36:00 - 0:36:04] ▶
It's just as good for her as it was for the other person.
[0:36:04 - 0:36:07] ▶
She said, yeah, it was kind of for her, but she said it was also for me because I'm releasing this.
[0:36:08 - 0:36:12] ▶
And I'm just letting God deal with this because I know it's too much for me to handle.
[0:36:13 - 0:36:17] ▶
And it doesn't do you any good.
[0:36:17 - 0:36:19] ▶
But guess what happened?
[0:36:19 - 0:36:20] ▶
He'll sentiment does not do your body any good.
[0:36:20 - 0:36:22] ▶
You got to let that go like a duck.
[0:36:23 - 0:36:24] ▶
Water off a duck's back.
[0:36:25 - 0:36:26] ▶
Easier said than done, right?
[0:36:27 - 0:36:28] ▶
The next night after we had that happen in the courtroom, we both slept well.
[0:36:29 - 0:36:33] ▶
We had not slept well for many, many months.
[0:36:33 - 0:36:36] ▶
Because it was just eating us up alive.
[0:36:37 - 0:36:39] ▶
I got to tell you, right?
[0:36:39 - 0:36:40] ▶
When I signed those papers and finalized, at least I had some resolution.
[0:36:40 - 0:36:46] ▶
Even though despite it wasn't the resolution that I was hoping for.
[0:36:47 - 0:36:50] ▶
But at least I had resolution because that.
[0:36:50 - 0:36:52] ▶
New U.N. action stage.
[0:36:52 - 0:36:53] ▶
The night when it was like, it happened.
[0:36:54 - 0:36:56] ▶
This is what happened.
[0:36:56 - 0:36:57] ▶
Well, there's some great lessons in there you just had.
[0:37:00 - 0:37:03] ▶
So I'm sure a lot of people are going to pick up on that.
[0:37:03 - 0:37:05] ▶
I appreciate you sharing all that, Jay.
[0:37:05 - 0:37:06] ▶
But once you do get out of your childhood and you do join the Air Force, what was what was the beginning like?
[0:37:07 - 0:37:14] ▶
Well, our 18, right?
[0:37:15 - 0:37:16] ▶
Actually 20 because I spent two years trying to make it doing security work in San Jose, California.
[0:37:17 - 0:37:26] ▶
And that's what I did.
[0:37:26 - 0:37:29] ▶
And then eventually I just decided, you know, I really want to prove to myself.
[0:37:29 - 0:37:34] ▶
I'm going to make a commitment to the Air Force.
[0:37:34 - 0:37:36] ▶
And I'm just going to do this, you know.
[0:37:36 - 0:37:38] ▶
And I went in and talked to the recruiter and sure enough, I was by January of 85.
[0:37:38 - 0:37:42] ▶
I was in the Air Force going through basic.
[0:37:42 - 0:37:44] ▶
I think you started to say this a little bit earlier, but we got off it.
[0:37:44 - 0:37:47] ▶
What was the thought process on choosing the Air Force specifically?
[0:37:47 - 0:37:50] ▶
Oh, just that my dad had said that it said good military service where you learn to do this.
[0:37:50 - 0:37:55] ▶
And I was like, I'm going to do a service where you learn technical skills that you can use in the outside when you retire.
[0:37:55 - 0:38:00] ▶
And that's really what governed the whole things.
[0:38:00 - 0:38:02] ▶
I knew I could get an education, which I did.
[0:38:02 - 0:38:04] ▶
I got my bachelor degree through the Air Force and all the other stuff.
[0:38:04 - 0:38:07] ▶
And I've never looked back on it as being a bad thing.
[0:38:07 - 0:38:10] ▶
I mean, you had had some rough spots here and there.
[0:38:10 - 0:38:12] ▶
But nothing that I can complain about.
[0:38:12 - 0:38:14] ▶
I mean, I have only medical taking care of my wife's got all her medical.
[0:38:14 - 0:38:17] ▶
All my kids were taking care very well by the Air Force.
[0:38:17 - 0:38:21] ▶
And the benefits, good grief.
[0:38:21 - 0:38:24] ▶
Where else can you go, honestly, in today's world and retire at the age of 40-42?
[0:38:24 - 0:38:29] ▶
And have such a lot of, you know, you've got, you know, you're going to have an income.
[0:38:30 - 0:38:34] ▶
That you can't beat that.
[0:38:35 - 0:38:36] ▶
You know, you can't.
[0:38:36 - 0:38:37] ▶
I mean, yes, you're giving up a lot because I had to sacrifice a lot.
[0:38:37 - 0:38:40] ▶
And I was away from a lot in several parts of my tenure in the Air Force.
[0:38:41 - 0:38:47] ▶
So yeah, there's a give and take there, but it was well worth it at the end of it all.
[0:38:47 - 0:38:51] ▶
But when you went in, you didn't have like a specific thing in mind.
[0:38:51 - 0:38:54] ▶
You wanted to do within the Air Force.
[0:38:54 - 0:38:55] ▶
You were kind of open to wherever.
[0:38:55 - 0:38:56] ▶
Yeah, I just took the test.
[0:38:56 - 0:38:57] ▶
They have what it has as Vab tests is what they call it.
[0:38:57 - 0:39:00] ▶
It shows your propensity to learn things.
[0:39:00 - 0:39:03] ▶
And I had a very high mechanical and administrative score.
[0:39:03 - 0:39:06] ▶
So usually the guys with mechanical, they go into a field, which is what I did in the first few years,
[0:39:06 - 0:39:12] ▶
like three years of my career, was also an air framer, was a parispecialist.
[0:39:12 - 0:39:16] ▶
And what is that consistent?
[0:39:16 - 0:39:18] ▶
That's where you, you know, you have like large body aircraft like C-130s, KC-135s.
[0:39:18 - 0:39:24] ▶
They get broke. They get cracks in their wings from flying.
[0:39:24 - 0:39:27] ▶
There's a lot of vibrations in the craft and the things that break.
[0:39:27 - 0:39:30] ▶
So that's what I would fix.
[0:39:30 - 0:39:32] ▶
I would go out there and help sometimes we'd have to pull out gear tracks because after landing so many times,
[0:39:32 - 0:39:36] ▶
sometimes those landings are hard.
[0:39:36 - 0:39:38] ▶
And excuse me, the aircraft needed to be repaired.
[0:39:38 - 0:39:42] ▶
And you'd have to pull out the gear tracks.
[0:39:42 - 0:39:44] ▶
These things are like as tall as a ceiling in here.
[0:39:44 - 0:39:47] ▶
And they weigh over 100 pounds and you have to pull them out and put in the new ones and shoot the rivets in and everything else.
[0:39:47 - 0:39:52] ▶
And where were you stationed doing this?
[0:39:54 - 0:39:56] ▶
That was little rocker Arkansas.
[0:39:56 - 0:39:58] ▶
So that was my very first duty station after my first technical school.
[0:39:58 - 0:40:01] ▶
What are we thinking like mid 80s this year?
[0:40:01 - 0:40:03] ▶
Yeah, I went through 85 to 80.
[0:40:03 - 0:40:07] ▶
87 to 88 somewhere in there.
[0:40:12 - 0:40:14] ▶
And where'd you go right after that?
[0:40:14 - 0:40:16] ▶
That's when I had to cross straight out and because they had too many people in my career field.
[0:40:16 - 0:40:20] ▶
And when that happens, they just take the extra people, usually the lowest ranking people and they requalify them in another field.
[0:40:20 - 0:40:27] ▶
So I switched over to Intel at that point.
[0:40:27 - 0:40:30] ▶
And I ended up in some boggieromy for my first duty station.
[0:40:30 - 0:40:33] ▶
Did you have a preference for that or did they say you're doing Intel?
[0:40:33 - 0:40:37] ▶
I took another series of tests and they presented me with jobs that I qualified for.
[0:40:39 - 0:40:44] ▶
And I saw the one that said, ooh, it'll be monitoring telecommunications and I'll have a top secret clearance.
[0:40:44 - 0:40:49] ▶
And I was like, ooh, well, what?
[0:40:49 - 0:40:50] ▶
So that's what I did.
[0:40:54 - 0:40:56] ▶
And where did they, where did you say they sent you again?
[0:40:57 - 0:40:59] ▶
For the second one, the second school was good fellow air force base.
[0:40:59 - 0:41:02] ▶
So this is where you train in the telecommunications thing.
[0:41:05 - 0:41:08] ▶
Now we started to talk about this earlier with some of the specific examples.
[0:41:08 - 0:41:11] ▶
James was talking about where you're listening to things, to phone calls and stuff coming off the base.
[0:41:11 - 0:41:16] ▶
But like, I guess prior to that, like what, what's the full gamut of your responsibilities once they train you for that that you're doing?
[0:41:16 - 0:41:24] ▶
You have specific training on protecting people's privacy, first and foremost.
[0:41:24 - 0:41:28] ▶
Unlike my career field is unlike the ones that listen in on like our adversaries toward nation.
[0:41:30 - 0:41:38] ▶
We're talking about I'm going to a military installation where American citizens and military personnel are talking.
[0:41:38 - 0:41:46] ▶
They're Americans, they have rights to their privacy.
[0:41:46 - 0:41:49] ▶
So you had to be trained on how to handle all that stuff.
[0:41:49 - 0:41:53] ▶
And then if you also heard and captured information about a crime that's going to be committed like somebody's missing around on their wife.
[0:41:53 - 0:42:00] ▶
Or something and somebody's going to get shot killed, whatever you have to report that to the USI or another respective organization that can handle it.
[0:42:00 - 0:42:07] ▶
So you have to learn how to handle all those things as well as learn how to handle the equipment.
[0:42:07 - 0:42:12] ▶
Because the equipment is very technical as well.
[0:42:12 - 0:42:15] ▶
Like I said, sometimes we're monitoring radio and electronic frequencies and things like this.
[0:42:15 - 0:42:22] ▶
Some of the people I got trained actually with one of the few that got to do satellite cons on in Marseille.
[0:42:22 - 0:42:28] ▶
I used to copy that stuff.
[0:42:28 - 0:42:30] ▶
So these are all the kind of responsibilities you would have that's just taking down whatever telecommunications they're being used at the time.
[0:42:30 - 0:42:36] ▶
And we expanded down into cell phones when they started to become prevalent.
[0:42:36 - 0:42:40] ▶
And we expanded out into computers when they became a big thing as well because in the 80s they weren't there weren't that many computers.
[0:42:40 - 0:42:47] ▶
So we grew into all of those things and that's what we were monitoring.
[0:42:47 - 0:42:51] ▶
So we would go out to the missions.
[0:42:51 - 0:42:53] ▶
We'd take in the emails, take in the phone calls and everything else.
[0:42:53 - 0:42:56] ▶
You'd go out to missions. What do you mean by that?
[0:42:56 - 0:42:58] ▶
Well, we'd go almost always it was a two week mission.
[0:42:58 - 0:43:01] ▶
Unless there was like an operation like no legal where you had to be there for months.
[0:43:01 - 0:43:05] ▶
So you're meaning you're sent somewhere in the world where there's something going on and you got you're like the you're like the Mr. Wolf team open up the open up the bag and say,
[0:43:05 - 0:43:14] ▶
we're here to do our thing and take care of that for you.
[0:43:14 - 0:43:17] ▶
And like when does our store and kicked off they just called us down to sent com.
[0:43:17 - 0:43:20] ▶
We started our monitoring there.
[0:43:20 - 0:43:22] ▶
We covered down on some of the the missions that they had there and they actually did change some of their plans because of what we intercepted and they wanted to make sure that what they were doing was going to be kept secret.
[0:43:22 - 0:43:33] ▶
Are you able without revealing like classified specific stuff.
[0:43:33 - 0:43:37] ▶
Can you say like an example of something you might have intercepted?
[0:43:37 - 0:43:41] ▶
Remember one day in particular that ended up being a big deal was.
[0:43:41 - 0:43:46] ▶
At some point when we're when we had entered into Iraq.
[0:43:46 - 0:43:49] ▶
You know when Saddam had put all the burn pits out there and filled them full of oil and just started on fire.
[0:43:49 - 0:43:55] ▶
Well, we intercepted a call that stated that there are a lot of these civil engineers being called up from the army to come.
[0:43:55 - 0:44:02] ▶
And they pulled me over and they said, hey, Jay, you you your dad was in the army.
[0:44:02 - 0:44:06] ▶
What are these what is this that we've got like a whole ton of these these civil engineers coming.
[0:44:06 - 0:44:10] ▶
I'm like, well, that's kind of weird because my dad described it as being only one or two of these guys assigned to any particular battalion.
[0:44:10 - 0:44:17] ▶
And they're the ones that were responsible to get through the things like water.
[0:44:17 - 0:44:21] ▶
Ways and putting a bridge up and you know getting them from point A to point B.
[0:44:21 - 0:44:26] ▶
There's and sometimes they get into explosives and things like that too.
[0:44:26 - 0:44:29] ▶
But here we are, you know, just the beginning of the desert storm that you know Saddam has these pits.
[0:44:29 - 0:44:36] ▶
And I just put the two and two together. I'm like, well, if I already use you know a whole bunch of civil engineers for a particular job.
[0:44:36 - 0:44:44] ▶
What would I do that? Well, maybe they're going to come in and fill in all of these pits that are burning right now and preventing them from, you know, getting from point A to point B.
[0:44:44 - 0:44:54] ▶
And sure enough, that's what they're planning. That is what happened and they briefed the general and he flew through the roof. Schwartz Koffle. He flew the roof.
[0:44:54 - 0:45:02] ▶
That's pretty cool. So you impact things in a serious level.
[0:45:02 - 0:45:05] ▶
Yeah. So they delayed that part of the plan. And I think they came with a deception plan also just to make sure that they went down properly and you saw how we kicked but.
[0:45:05 - 0:45:12] ▶
Oh, yeah. So what would have happened? Had you not that not have what would have happened.
[0:45:12 - 0:45:17] ▶
People's lives could have been in danger because if there was any inkling that Saddam would have had a precursor that that's what we were going to do.
[0:45:17 - 0:45:24] ▶
The critical time for these civil engineers is when they're actually like trying to bridge through that fire zone or the burning pits.
[0:45:24 - 0:45:31] ▶
And that would leave them open to tank fire, you know, and all that all the other forces that were available to Saddam.
[0:45:31 - 0:45:38] ▶
And he would have precursors to the next steps because he would know where we were coming from and where he would best put all of his forces.
[0:45:38 - 0:45:47] ▶
So you could have saved a lot of lives. Maybe. I don't know. That's good. I could have. Well, my team could have.
[0:45:47 - 0:45:54] ▶
Right. Bottom line is you're on the front lines of some of the most serious stuff for your job, like affecting how you guys do it on your.
[0:45:54 - 0:46:01] ▶
Yes. You know, communications and so. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
[0:46:01 - 0:46:05] ▶
Did you like your work? I'd like parts of it. However, along with all the phone calls that were mission related, you do get a lot of.
[0:46:05 - 0:46:14] ▶
I hate to say it and relate it this way, but you get to be to kind of like what a cop is when they just see too much bad.
[0:46:14 - 0:46:22] ▶
You would not believe the level of darkness people have in their souls.
[0:46:22 - 0:46:27] ▶
And when they're not, they don't know they're being monitored, the kind of crap you get exposed to in their lives.
[0:46:27 - 0:46:34] ▶
It affects you because you're like, holy crap. I just heard this. What kinds of things?
[0:46:34 - 0:46:39] ▶
Just awful things like, you know, pastors that are.
[0:46:39 - 0:46:42] ▶
Sodomizing your staff.
[0:46:42 - 0:46:45] ▶
You're talking really serious crap. And you do have to report on some of that.
[0:46:45 - 0:46:50] ▶
And then there's other times when you just, you know, you know, you know somebody and they're messing around on their wife, but that work you would never suspect.
[0:46:50 - 0:46:58] ▶
And so you're like, I know, you know, I know who you are. I know what the hell you're doing.
[0:46:58 - 0:47:03] ▶
You're not what you're portraying to people. And you, and you just, I'm done. You know, you just get to the point where you're just kind of like done with that part of it.
[0:47:03 - 0:47:13] ▶
So make it hate people. I didn't hate people. I just didn't like the dark side of people.
[0:47:13 - 0:47:18] ▶
And I was like, man, I just don't want to have to listen to this after one. And I did that for so much of my career.
[0:47:18 - 0:47:24] ▶
I was so happy when they sent me to school to become a joint planner and I actually got to help plan and make war plans and stuff.
[0:47:24 - 0:47:31] ▶
Because it got me out of my career field. I didn't have to monitor the phones anymore kind of thing.
[0:47:31 - 0:47:35] ▶
Because it was just, it didn't help my PTSD. I only put it that way. I already had trust issues from my dad.
[0:47:35 - 0:47:41] ▶
I didn't need this stuff. You know, so that's kind of how it went.
[0:47:41 - 0:47:45] ▶
So yeah, it didn't help the PTSD.
[0:47:45 - 0:47:48] ▶
So desert storm, I would say just looking at the timeline here, though, that would mean that that.
[0:47:48 - 0:47:55] ▶
Yeah, like, yeah, 91. Yeah, 90, I think it's 91. We can check that. I'll ask you, but I'm pretty sure it's 91.
[0:47:55 - 0:48:01] ▶
So it's shortly after this where you get sent to Nevada, right?
[0:48:01 - 0:48:05] ▶
Yeah, go from Sembach, Germany, for my first two years in as a one in six.
[0:48:05 - 0:48:11] ▶
Well, at the time it was called 209. We were 209s English.
[0:48:11 - 0:48:16] ▶
That's a career field designator. It's usually a six digit number. And it has in there your precursor numbers, the first three digits.
[0:48:16 - 0:48:23] ▶
And it tells you your career field.
[0:48:23 - 0:48:26] ▶
So 209 was my career field. And then it starts the next two numbers.
[0:48:26 - 0:48:32] ▶
Designated what skill over you are. There's three skill levels at your skill level three. You're an apprentice skill level five minute, your return even.
[0:48:32 - 0:48:40] ▶
And you've been doing it a while. And then there's skill level seven, which is what I retired as, which is the highest level in craftsman.
[0:48:40 - 0:48:48] ▶
And there I think there's only one other one that you get a talk. You know, if you actually max out your rank like your chief master sergeant, and you have to go to another school for senior management and stuff like that, then you get designated with the very last one.
[0:48:48 - 0:49:01] ▶
Got it. So what was the decision process and going to Nevada? Was that something you were involved in requesting or were you told to go there? What, what, what did you know?
[0:49:01 - 0:49:09] ▶
All I knew was whenever you are coming up for a new assignment, you're allowed to put in preferences. And Nevada was one of them. I put in just I heard Vegas, you know, Vegas.
[0:49:09 - 0:49:23] ▶
I was sitting for all on black.
[0:49:23 - 0:49:26] ▶
Stasing Vegas. Yeah.
[0:49:28 - 0:49:30] ▶
Staining Vegas. You know, seeing the worst darkness. What's a little coconut? Oh my god. Oh my god.
[0:49:30 - 0:49:37] ▶
I'm going to go for bad to worse guys. It was not the only one I had on my list.
[0:49:37 - 0:49:43] ▶
But who else did you put on your list? You remember I put Hawaii. Another great place. Another great place. Yeah. So I had that. And then what was the other one? Colorado.
[0:49:43 - 0:49:52] ▶
Okay. All right. So you were all out west though. Yeah. I loved I loved the idea of the mountains. I loved that. And I loved Hawaii just for the fact that I'd never been there. And again, Vegas because I'd never been there either.
[0:49:52 - 0:50:02] ▶
So it was more location based rather than whatever mission base was going to be that was more.
[0:50:02 - 0:50:08] ▶
Yeah. It was just out of, you know, where would I like to grow up? Yeah. So that's all it was. Yeah.
[0:50:08 - 0:50:13] ▶
And at this point, you know, are you married with kids? Nope. No. I met my wife actually after the first year I was in the program.
[0:50:13 - 0:50:20] ▶
Okay. That's what we're about to get to. So you get to Nevada. This is still like just regular military stuff. What are you doing when you first get there?
[0:50:20 - 0:50:30] ▶
I end up underneath the training shop. So I'm helping train people in my position because I'd already been doing it for a couple of years.
[0:50:30 - 0:50:38] ▶
So I was able to train other people on the positions that we have. There was another side of the job that was different from the telecommunications monitoring that they do it.
[0:50:38 - 0:50:50] ▶
Nellis. They since quit doing it, but they also had another part which they called doing the red flag exercises, which was going up to black mountain and doing all the other stuff we'll probably talk about and touch on.
[0:50:50 - 0:51:02] ▶
But that was another aspect that was very unique to Las Vegas work in Nellis or work for for me and everybody else that was a one in six.
[0:51:02 - 0:51:10] ▶
That one in there. And you're training people. You're not even 30 years old yet. Yeah, you say you've been around. Yeah. Yeah. And I was good at what I did. And people recognize me for that.
[0:51:10 - 0:51:19] ▶
They knew I was a good frontline analyst as a three and a five level. I had my five level by the time I got to Las Vegas.
[0:51:19 - 0:51:26] ▶
So that was where I was stepping into it and I was also chosen by the training shop to be a person that could train the trainers as well.
[0:51:26 - 0:51:38] ▶
I was also chosen for some very hand picked prototyping training like we had other people that would rate our specific. In other words, they get E-Lint. I did SIGINT.
[0:51:38 - 0:51:50] ▶
You don't use the cross. And you're spying that to people. Well, SIGINT signals intelligence is SIGINT. That's where telecommunications is within that.
[0:51:50 - 0:51:58] ▶
So whether you're doing it against the adversary or you're doing it like I was for military installations of our own, then you're receiving signals from radio waves or from other means that you have to intercept it.
[0:51:58 - 0:52:11] ▶
And that's called signals intelligence. Now E-Lint, that's electronic intelligence, which is like radars. That's what they call them scope doaps.
[0:52:11 - 0:52:21] ▶
And that's what my wife was. So we're both assigned to the same unit. And one of the prototype training that I got chosen for was I said, we wonder if we can cross the streams with having a SIGINT guy because we've got a shortage of people that can come in here and do the E-Lint side of this here at NELIS.
[0:52:21 - 0:52:40] ▶
Well, this crab J, he's really smart on things and he knows the systems really well. Maybe he'll take to this. And yeah, I saw my wife because she used my trainer.
[0:52:40 - 0:52:50] ▶
Oh, so she was in the military too. Yeah, we we served up until about the 10 year mark. Then she got out after our second child after all that rigmarine with my child getting abused in a day cage.
[0:52:50 - 0:53:00] ▶
Oh, that's right. We already talked about this. Yeah, so that happens as I walk through walk you guys through it. But anyway, that's how I started.
[0:53:00 - 0:53:07] ▶
Were you living in Las Vegas proper or were you just like where were you Las Vegas? You were living in North Las Vegas. Yeah, I lived right across the street from the mayor of North Las Vegas. And how far were you from the NELIS test range?
[0:53:07 - 0:53:18] ▶
It's probably two to three hour drive. Oh, wow. It's it's it's a long drive to get to the test range. Wow, okay. Or to the gates that I would go in. Okay, wow. Wow, it's a lot of driving. Yeah. And I did it for 180 days of the year.
[0:53:18 - 0:53:34] ▶
Along with the other people in the squadron. Yeah, would you ever stay when you drove all the way out there because that's three hours each direction, right?
[0:53:35 - 0:53:41] ▶
Yeah, three to three and a half. Would you ever like stay out in the bunker? That's what we did. We did. Oh, you what? Yeah, we would go up there and do the the red flag exercise for two weeks. Then we change out crews. And then because we had a little place up in Bady and Tonapah.
[0:53:41 - 0:53:54] ▶
There is our favorite hotels that we'd always, you know, book whenever we were doing our exercises, but that's how we would do it. We were just every two weeks. We change out the crew. Okay, so you weren't having to go back and forth like. Oh, no, no, got it. No, it was not like a daily trip.
[0:53:54 - 0:54:07] ▶
Got it. But essentially the whole beginning of your time there. You're not in the program or anything, which we're going to talk about, which involves you. The first part now. It took a few months for them to ask me in. Yeah. Okay. Did you, but even before they asked you in. Did you like?
[0:54:07 - 0:54:20] ▶
Because again, you have such high rankings at this point. You're training people. You're being asked to do some serious things. You're an expert in your field. You're also, I guess like a star because you're young as well.
[0:54:20 - 0:54:31] ▶
Like, did you ever have some of your superiors like pull you aside and I don't know if they say like, hey, we got some special things in mind for you or, you know, give you a hint that, you know, listen, keep going.
[0:54:31 - 0:54:42] ▶
Yeah, and the records that I was you guys were reading off of if you go into the my job descriptions. I was doing things that some of them didn't do like I got had to be the plans in CEO.
[0:54:42 - 0:54:53] ▶
What does that mean? Well, plans in CEO is usually somebody that.
[0:54:53 - 0:54:57] ▶
What you go into the plans office on the base and like say during a crisis or a disaster, there's all these checklists that you go through because each organization on the basis responsible for either taking in victims, getting
[0:54:57 - 0:55:14] ▶
water pool vehicles to do things, helping with logistics to get things back and forth, getting food, all these types of things, you all contribute to that as as being part of the base.
[0:55:14 - 0:55:25] ▶
So a plans in CEO has to go out there and read all these things that could possibly happen. Or if we were to defend the base, let's say, that these are the things that we would have to participate in. We'd have to give up 10 bodies to secure the perimeter.
[0:55:25 - 0:55:40] ▶
We have to give up two bodies that are willing to drive this particular truck that are qualified to drive these deuces, which are very large trucks, you know, the ones you've seen in the films.
[0:55:40 - 0:55:49] ▶
They have the big canopy back, you know, and all this stuff. So those are the kind of things that I had to, you know, go through and read through and then I'd have to brief all of my staff to commander on down and say, here you go, this is what we're responsible for sir.
[0:55:49 - 0:56:02] ▶
And that's that's a higher level of responsibility that most people would get in the unit. You don't you don't only pick somebody who had a good attention to detail and could pick things up. And even in my records here, it says I picked those things up.
[0:56:02 - 0:56:19] ▶
And within a month, I was able to start things from scratch and get them further down the road. So I've got actual evidence of me not just being some some dude.
[0:56:19 - 0:56:30] ▶
Yeah, I'm just not some random dude like some people have chosen to speak of me. And I'm like, oh, you knew me. You know, there you go. Dude, do you don't talk like don't talk shit about me again, dude.
[0:56:30 - 0:56:42] ▶
Kind of stuff because I've showed you all the documentation of what I actually did. So.
[0:56:42 - 0:56:47] ▶
And then a few months in they come to you with this idea of the program.
[0:56:47 - 0:56:51] ▶
Yes, all right. So before I ask you about that, just real quickly, because I didn't cover this with you at any point in your life, whether it be growing up your early time in the military.
[0:56:51 - 0:57:01] ▶
I don't know if there's some things you saw or whatever. At any point had you had a previous interest in or curiosity about or desire to be educated on things that were not of this earth, like whether or not there was intelligent life out there.
[0:57:01 - 0:57:17] ▶
I had when I was since San Jose, California, that was my first UFO sighting.
[0:57:17 - 0:57:22] ▶
What was that? I was 10 years old. It must have been 72.
[0:57:22 - 0:57:28] ▶
Okay, what happened?
[0:57:28 - 0:57:30] ▶
I was just, you know, it was around Christmas time. And my parents, we just called my dad in to come visit because me and my sisters had known that he was gone for two years.
[0:57:30 - 0:57:44] ▶
And we were like, where's that? And she's like, well, she's been working Vietnam, you know, like, well, we're going to get to see him again. And so he came home that Christmas. And they were all talking in the living room about this that and the other.
[0:57:44 - 0:57:56] ▶
And they agreed eventually at the end of the night that we were joining him in Germany. So that's when all that crap happened with all the other things.
[0:57:56 - 0:58:04] ▶
Anyway, so I'm getting tired. This adult talk crap was tying me so I went back to my room, walked down the hallway, the lights are off.
[0:58:04 - 0:58:13] ▶
And I look out the windows and walking towards my bed, which is just beneath the window. And this red light looks like it comes down out of the sky.
[0:58:13 - 0:58:23] ▶
And it's really kind of pinpointing, but it's coming straight at me. And it's coming down, down, down closer, closer, closer.
[0:58:23 - 0:58:30] ▶
And then it's to the point where it just passes this other little foot hill rolling hill where there's a ranch that's always been perched up there. I think it's still there today.
[0:58:30 - 0:58:40] ▶
There's other houses around there, but it used to be totally barren of houses at one point. That's that's what I'm talking about is the biggest one. There were no houses at the base of my street or at the bottom of my street.
[0:58:40 - 0:58:50] ▶
So it comes down and then it's in front of this hillside. And I could see it lighting up with red light all around it.
[0:58:50 - 0:58:58] ▶
And then it's still coming directly towards the bottom of my street. And eventually it gets right over my friend Eddie's house at the base of the street or on the bottom of the street.
[0:58:58 - 0:59:09] ▶
And there's this huge flash of white light like a flash keep going off. And I kind of, you know, blinked a little bit. But then when I looked, there is this what it looked like in a drop of mercury.
[0:59:09 - 0:59:24] ▶
And drop of mercury?
[0:59:24 - 0:59:25] ▶
Just perfectly silver smooth because he was my friends house was only like three or four rooftops from mine. So it wasn't that far away. It wasn't even a football field.
[0:59:25 - 0:59:36] ▶
And this thing's this thing is right over his house is hovering like here's his rooftop. This thing is is right in his backyard like this. And it's this shape is kind of how big would you say it was?
[0:59:36 - 0:59:50] ▶
Yeah. So this isn't like a little take a neck. It's not something you get. It's not basketball size. This is big. This is like a camper size.
[0:59:54 - 1:00:05] ▶
Yeah, camper sized vehicle or craft. So anyway, there it is. It's just sitting there. And then it starts moving towards the street because, you know, this is my friends backyard. His driveway is on this side of the house.
[1:00:06 - 1:00:17] ▶
There's a lamp post on the end of his driveway because he's he's got the house at the end of the street that has the lamp there. And so it's moving across.
[1:00:17 - 1:00:26] ▶
And I'm starting to scream, you have you have.
[1:00:26 - 1:00:29] ▶
And nobody's listening to me. And they're saying, I was just J. He's just whatever.
[1:00:29 - 1:00:34] ▶
And so I just I run out into the living room because I'm thinking to myself, that's it. I'm getting my dad's binoculars out of the hallway closet. And I'm going to look really good at this thing.
[1:00:34 - 1:00:45] ▶
And my mom is the only one she turns around. He's serious. Look at that. Let him. And she's like getting, you know, getting up out of her chair to go with me out to the front lawn and start looking at whatever was I was yelling about.
[1:00:45 - 1:00:58] ▶
So I'm sitting there peeling my dad's leather case away from his binoculars as I'm running out the door.
[1:00:58 - 1:01:03] ▶
And we get to the front lawn me and my mom.
[1:01:03 - 1:01:06] ▶
And by that time at this this thing, this craft had gone over my friend's house.
[1:01:06 - 1:01:11] ▶
And it was right underneath the light at this time, the street light. And it was just right there.
[1:01:11 - 1:01:18] ▶
Was it making any noise? No noise whatsoever. No noise.
[1:01:18 - 1:01:21] ▶
Was it was it close enough to hit it with a rock? Or was it further than that?
[1:01:21 - 1:01:24] ▶
I could probably chuck a rock at it. Yeah. It was like a throw pretty good. But it would have been at the extent of my being able to throw it that far.
[1:01:24 - 1:01:32] ▶
Yeah. This was like a couple hundred feet. It was about half a football field. Yeah. Right.
[1:01:32 - 1:01:36] ▶
And you're 10 years old. And this has happened. Yeah. Yeah. How do you, but next day, like, what are you thinking about that?
[1:01:36 - 1:01:42] ▶
I actually talked to you. I walked I walked over to Eddie's house. My mom saw it because it came out. And what happened next is I was sitting there thinking about putting my binoculars up.
[1:01:42 - 1:01:52] ▶
But I was like, I could see it perfectly anyway. And then it shot up into the sky. It starts rotating around this other point of light.
[1:01:52 - 1:01:59] ▶
And this other point of light, they kind of do this with each other. And you're kind of orbiting each other.
[1:01:59 - 1:02:04] ▶
Then the one I saw stops and at the exact instant that the one that I saw with my mother stops. This other one just shoots.
[1:02:04 - 1:02:11] ▶
I can't even keep up with my eyes. It's that quick. I mean, I've seen shooting stars. And this thing was way faster than that.
[1:02:11 - 1:02:18] ▶
Because it just went straight across the horizon. You know, and it was gone.
[1:02:18 - 1:02:25] ▶
And then the next day I get up and I go running down to the not downstairs, but down to the my friend Eddie house Eddie's house at the base of the street.
[1:02:25 - 1:02:34] ▶
And I just said, Hey, Ed, you know, did you hear or see anything funny last night? And he's like, well, yeah, my TV went on and off. And I heard this weird humming sound.
[1:02:34 - 1:02:44] ▶
And I said, dude, there was a UFO over your house. He's like, Oh crap. I should have ran out. I knew I should have run out there.
[1:02:44 - 1:02:51] ▶
I said, whatever. I said, but I told him about the whole thing. He was like, Oh, that's so cool. I wish I'd run out there.
[1:02:51 - 1:02:57] ▶
So it was just a thing with me and my mind. Ed, you know, but you're young and everything like this is affect your world view. I mean, that's like.
[1:02:57 - 1:03:05] ▶
Yeah, actually, the only book I ever bought was Eric Von Daniken's chair to the guy. And I got that just because I was interested.
[1:03:05 - 1:03:13] ▶
At age 10, at age 10. That was the first book I ever wrote on it. I was reading. Isn't he still alive? Yeah. Yeah. Eric Von Daniken's still alive. Isn't that age 10? I would love that underpants or some shit.
[1:03:13 - 1:03:27] ▶
But anyway, I really want to meet him too, because he's such a, I respect him so much for studying as long as he did and trying to connect the dots in ancient history and everything else.
[1:03:27 - 1:03:39] ▶
Because that's what opened up in my mind was that maybe there's something there.
[1:03:39 - 1:03:43] ▶
So has this become like a little bit of a background theme in your life in the sense that after after seeing that, you're always looking up and wondering like, I don't know what's actually.
[1:03:43 - 1:03:53] ▶
I just had an interest for a while and I'd say that after I read the book that was about as much as I thought as I put into it because I was 10.
[1:03:53 - 1:03:59] ▶
I was more into playing football at the top of the street, honestly, or riding my bike and racking myself as I made jumps that I wrecking myself on the pavement, that kind of stuff.
[1:03:59 - 1:04:10] ▶
And that's what all my friends would do. So we did that more than anything else. So it quickly took a backstage and it was just like a, okay, I saw something can explain it. Oh, well, time to go play.
[1:04:10 - 1:04:20] ▶
Could have been some of us. Yeah. All right. So fasting forward to when you got into the me, I want you to take me there in a second like the first meeting where you're told about the program.
[1:04:20 - 1:04:32] ▶
But it's fair to say that it wasn't, it wasn't a top of mind thought about alien life or non-human intelligence at that point.
[1:04:32 - 1:04:41] ▶
You were, you had way many other priorities in your life for those years between that right and see that's just it is I just.
[1:04:41 - 1:04:53] ▶
I guess we did talk a little bit about it because the first time we went up range for the red flag exercises and training and everything.
[1:04:53 - 1:05:02] ▶
People automatically start everybody who was new to it started talking about dream land.
[1:05:02 - 1:05:07] ▶
Yeah, yeah, the, you know, the place up there in the test range. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:05:07 - 1:05:14] ▶
Yeah, yeah, the area that you believed out the words in the program, but not the mouth. So lip readers can go figure it out.
[1:05:19 - 1:05:27] ▶
I used the F bomb a lot in that film.
[1:05:27 - 1:05:30] ▶
That's what everybody said. What were you doing? You say the F bomb or I'm like, no, no.
[1:05:30 - 1:05:36] ▶
So anyway, so what is that first meeting like though, who's without
[1:05:36 - 1:05:41] ▶
all those who's in it like where are you taking to? How does it? How does it work?
[1:05:41 - 1:05:45] ▶
We're at Black Mountain. We're in the, we're up there getting our training to do red flag exercises and we're just hanging out on the front porch of the schoolhouse.
[1:05:45 - 1:05:53] ▶
And if you look straight across the desert, that's groom Lake mountain range.
[1:05:53 - 1:05:58] ▶
And people started talking all this dream land and everybody's like, oh, they got UFOs there and I got this.
[1:05:58 - 1:06:04] ▶
Now, wow, it'd be cool. You know, that's the first time we started talking about it.
[1:06:04 - 1:06:09] ▶
The second time was closer to probably them getting me on board because that was just me and one of the other guys that was already read in.
[1:06:09 - 1:06:18] ▶
Driving up range to go, you know, take care of a couple of other people that wanted to change out, you know, days because we would do that sometimes, you know,
[1:06:18 - 1:06:26] ▶
aside from your two weeks up range, you could trade out with other people.
[1:06:26 - 1:06:30] ▶
People have stuff to do. They're having people that are having kids.
[1:06:30 - 1:06:34] ▶
They got to go to a hospital appointment or their grandparents are in hospital. Yeah.
[1:06:34 - 1:06:39] ▶
So we were just going up there to replace people and that was it.
[1:06:39 - 1:06:43] ▶
So we got to Indian Springs and we started to talk about it. And I was saying, wow, dream land, that would be really cool.
[1:06:43 - 1:06:49] ▶
And the guy I didn't even know what he was right in at the time. He's all chuckling at me like, yeah, wouldn't it be great?
[1:06:49 - 1:06:55] ▶
You know, and I'm like talking it all up. And we just had a really good conversation about the whole thing.
[1:06:55 - 1:07:01] ▶
So we go up, we do our bit over in Black Mountain and we train the air crews and then we come on back home.
[1:07:01 - 1:07:07] ▶
And within a short amount of time after that, get pulled in.
[1:07:07 - 1:07:11] ▶
Who pulls you? The same guy who was in the car with me and two other analysts that are also one in sixes.
[1:07:11 - 1:07:17] ▶
Now Lou, Lou Elizando in his book describes like being in his office and a certain guy, I think it was maybe Likaski walks in and says, like, hey, I need you to apply for this.
[1:07:17 - 1:07:29] ▶
This or that. So you can have clear and so there's nothing like that.
[1:07:29 - 1:07:33] ▶
They had their eye on me for some reason and they just said, hey, Jay, come here.
[1:07:33 - 1:07:38] ▶
Come in here and we need to talk and they took me in one of the side offices that wasn't very well used.
[1:07:38 - 1:07:43] ▶
And I guess that's where they had been operating out of when they did their analysis and stuff.
[1:07:43 - 1:07:47] ▶
And I sat down and they mentioned the that they wanted to bring me on board are they special access program and have had any problems with taking a polygraph.
[1:07:47 - 1:07:59] ▶
And all these other things and I was like, yeah, I got nothing to hide. I'll take a polygraph.
[1:07:59 - 1:08:04] ▶
But they don't say words like alien or any child or anything like that. They're just saying it's going to be some top secret shit.
[1:08:04 - 1:08:09] ▶
Yeah. And so what did they have you take a polygraph? Yeah. Was it just a normal polygraph?
[1:08:09 - 1:08:14] ▶
No, this is full life. You have two types of polygraphs you got counterintel, which is a lesser of the two.
[1:08:14 - 1:08:21] ▶
Then you have full scope. Full scope is everything. They dig up everything.
[1:08:21 - 1:08:26] ▶
You're talking about your child. What did your third cousin remove do?
[1:08:26 - 1:08:32] ▶
Did they know a lot about your child?
[1:08:32 - 1:08:35] ▶
Yeah, some of the things you dealt with.
[1:08:35 - 1:08:37] ▶
Yeah, but then the topic for the questions was just mainly about being a trustworthy person.
[1:08:37 - 1:08:44] ▶
And they're bringing up a touchy subject that they know you probably would be shocked to hear from them just to see how you respond and see if you're lying.
[1:08:44 - 1:08:52] ▶
And I went through that with flying colors, I guess. I guess. And I was also there with the officer, the scientist of our team.
[1:08:52 - 1:08:59] ▶
He was onboarding the same time I was into the program. So we both took our polygraph the same day.
[1:08:59 - 1:09:04] ▶
Was it literally called the program at the time?
[1:09:04 - 1:09:07] ▶
No. I can't say that it was the game of the project name after I had my polygraph and it came back positive that came back without any problems.
[1:09:07 - 1:09:16] ▶
Then they took me and while they called me up, I think it was on a Friday, you know, it was a Friday.
[1:09:16 - 1:09:22] ▶
And they just said, have your bags packed right leaving tomorrow.
[1:09:22 - 1:09:25] ▶
And I said, okay, where? And I said, we're not going to tell you.
[1:09:25 - 1:09:29] ▶
Just meet us. We're going to come pick you up over the dorm. We're going to go.
[1:09:29 - 1:09:34] ▶
I said, okay. Because both of them were the two that went with me that day. No, the three of them.
[1:09:34 - 1:09:40] ▶
Two of them were married and one of them was still single. The guy that was single, I actually hung out most with.
[1:09:40 - 1:09:46] ▶
And he and I actually had a lot of commonality with all our hobbies and stuff.
[1:09:46 - 1:09:50] ▶
And anyway, so they came and picked me up the next day. We went to Macaron Airport and there's this weird place where they take you.
[1:09:50 - 1:09:59] ▶
And there's unmarked aircraft. Yeah, it's like this little hanger at it.
[1:09:59 - 1:10:04] ▶
It's just like you drive off of a certain road over there and you go in the gate.
[1:10:04 - 1:10:08] ▶
You got to have your credentials and you got to show your ID card and you have to be on the list.
[1:10:08 - 1:10:12] ▶
Otherwise, you get turned around and told you to, you know, bug off.
[1:10:12 - 1:10:15] ▶
So we go there and we get on the in the line and in the line for what?
[1:10:15 - 1:10:22] ▶
For getting on the craft. Well, get down the airplane. Yeah, because there's all the other people that are going.
[1:10:22 - 1:10:26] ▶
Okay, you're getting on the airplane. We're getting on an airplane.
[1:10:26 - 1:10:28] ▶
You're a line that said you had to be this tall.
[1:10:28 - 1:10:32] ▶
Okay, no, no, there was nothing like that.
[1:10:32 - 1:10:36] ▶
But no, you got to take two shots in a beer.
[1:10:36 - 1:10:41] ▶
No, that's kidding. Anyway, no, you go through.
[1:10:41 - 1:10:44] ▶
You go through the line and you get to the point where I'm going in the line with the rest of the guys.
[1:10:44 - 1:10:50] ▶
And the other guys just like, okay, you watch how people respond when you get on board the aircraft and when they deplane.
[1:10:50 - 1:10:57] ▶
And I was like, why? So you'll find this kind of interesting. And I was like, okay, you know, because I've been on, I'm like, I've been on planes before.
[1:10:57 - 1:11:05] ▶
I don't get it, you know. So anyway, but what they're alluding to is like when everybody got on was very civilized.
[1:11:05 - 1:11:11] ▶
It was like everybody knew where they were going to sit.
[1:11:11 - 1:11:13] ▶
And then when they left the same thing happened. Nobody was jostling around elbowing you to get in the line and grabbing their bags.
[1:11:13 - 1:11:19] ▶
And everybody was just very civilized. So anyway, that's the first day I went up to to a groom lake with them.
[1:11:19 - 1:11:26] ▶
And I had to go sit through my read in video.
[1:11:26 - 1:11:30] ▶
Yeah, there's, it's a training video to tell you welcome to this program.
[1:11:32 - 1:11:37] ▶
We handle aliens here.
[1:11:37 - 1:11:39] ▶
No, they don't go that far, but they say stuff like you must maintain your blah, blah, blah.
[1:11:39 - 1:11:44] ▶
And listen, here's the things that you're going to be doing.
[1:11:44 - 1:11:47] ▶
And then after the whole brief, and then they release you to your workspaces.
[1:11:47 - 1:11:51] ▶
Some of them were scientists and they went to the lab. There are some people that were leadership and they go to their office.
[1:11:51 - 1:11:57] ▶
They had all these different places they could go.
[1:11:57 - 1:12:00] ▶
And I was taking to the commanders headquarters in the building there.
[1:12:00 - 1:12:05] ▶
The guys we all went up there, we all greeted the commander.
[1:12:05 - 1:12:08] ▶
And then the commander said, okay, you know, how about a base tour for you, Jay?
[1:12:08 - 1:12:14] ▶
And I was like, oh, it's so cool.
[1:12:14 - 1:12:16] ▶
You still have no idea what?
[1:12:16 - 1:12:19] ▶
Well, I knew where I was. I knew I was in dreamland.
[1:12:19 - 1:12:22] ▶
And I knew I'd been on boarded into this program.
[1:12:22 - 1:12:25] ▶
And I now I knew what the, because the first thing in the video is it tells you what the program name is.
[1:12:25 - 1:12:31] ▶
And is it a dead giveaway kind of thing?
[1:12:31 - 1:12:34] ▶
It's something that is hard to figure out.
[1:12:35 - 1:12:38] ▶
Okay. So you don't know, you know where you are.
[1:12:38 - 1:12:40] ▶
So you're like, I heard there's some weird shit here, but you don't necessarily know if like that's going to prove to be urban legend.
[1:12:40 - 1:12:46] ▶
Or if you're doing some deep military black ops type stuff.
[1:12:46 - 1:12:49] ▶
Right. So anyway, so I'm up there with the commander.
[1:12:49 - 1:12:52] ▶
And he asked the other guys to go have lunch or whatever.
[1:12:52 - 1:12:55] ▶
And he says, you're coming with me.
[1:12:55 - 1:12:57] ▶
We're going to do the base tour.
[1:12:57 - 1:12:59] ▶
You know, he showed me all around the whole base show told me this hangers that that radar does this.
[1:12:59 - 1:13:04] ▶
There's the weather station and all that stuff.
[1:13:04 - 1:13:07] ▶
He and there's the burn pit don't go near the, you know, and I was like, okay.
[1:13:07 - 1:13:12] ▶
So there's all these really.
[1:13:12 - 1:13:15] ▶
I was like, where's the UFOs and he just looks at me.
[1:13:15 - 1:13:18] ▶
You want to go to the weather station?
[1:13:18 - 1:13:20] ▶
I'm like, I want to go there and he just laughs at me.
[1:13:20 - 1:13:24] ▶
And he says, just right over there, you want to, you want me to take you there?
[1:13:24 - 1:13:28] ▶
And I'm like, why would you have a weather station out here?
[1:13:28 - 1:13:32] ▶
He's like, well, you want to go sit?
[1:13:32 - 1:13:35] ▶
I'm like, I was stupid and I said, no.
[1:13:35 - 1:13:37] ▶
So why'd you say no?
[1:13:37 - 1:13:39] ▶
Because I was like, no, I want to see the UFOs.
[1:13:39 - 1:13:41] ▶
They show me the UFOs.
[1:13:41 - 1:13:43] ▶
You weren't reading them around.
[1:13:43 - 1:13:44] ▶
I wasn't reading him right because I'm like, I'm like that.
[1:13:44 - 1:13:46] ▶
To a certain extent, I don't pick up on clues that other people get in context.
[1:13:47 - 1:13:52] ▶
But he was alluding to the fact that after I had said, can you show me the UFOs?
[1:13:52 - 1:13:56] ▶
He was alluding to, they're over there by the weather station.
[1:13:56 - 1:13:59] ▶
Okay, let's go see that.
[1:13:59 - 1:14:00] ▶
And then he just laughed at me when I didn't get it enough.
[1:14:00 - 1:14:02] ▶
And he was like, God, this guy's a freaking idiot.
[1:14:02 - 1:14:05] ▶
But anyway, so we all.
[1:14:05 - 1:14:07] ▶
What year was this roughly?
[1:14:07 - 1:14:09] ▶
Okay. And then so what's the mic change?
[1:14:10 - 1:14:13] ▶
Oh, sorry, I was asking what year this is.
[1:14:13 - 1:14:15] ▶
Around this time, or was it was it after that or before that?
[1:14:15 - 1:14:18] ▶
This was probably 92.
[1:14:18 - 1:14:21] ▶
Yeah, he showed the show the picture of the camera.
[1:14:22 - 1:14:26] ▶
This was 92, 92, 93.
[1:14:26 - 1:14:30] ▶
Okay, so so this is of a year or two.
[1:14:31 - 1:14:33] ▶
You're talking about a year or two prior to that photograph being taken.
[1:14:33 - 1:14:36] ▶
Just wanted to get an idea because I wasn't sure.
[1:14:38 - 1:14:39] ▶
So we're like right after, we're basically right after Desert Storm right now in your story.
[1:14:39 - 1:14:43] ▶
So you've only been in Nevada for two or three months or something.
[1:14:43 - 1:14:46] ▶
But you get called into this.
[1:14:46 - 1:14:48] ▶
So this is maybe like 93 and we're in perhaps like 92ish right now.
[1:14:48 - 1:14:52] ▶
Yeah, it's 92 or 93.
[1:14:53 - 1:14:55] ▶
That's when I put on staff sergeant that's four stripes on your arm.
[1:14:55 - 1:14:58] ▶
So I think that's what I have is that have four stripes or three.
[1:14:59 - 1:15:02] ▶
You can tell you know, you don't have your glasses.
[1:15:02 - 1:15:05] ▶
I get my glasses on here.
[1:15:05 - 1:15:07] ▶
It looks like three, but it could be four.
[1:15:07 - 1:15:09] ▶
Had you had you heard anything?
[1:15:12 - 1:15:15] ▶
Okay, that was a buck sergeant and that's much been 91.
[1:15:15 - 1:15:18] ▶
Okay, just as a quick aside, real quick.
[1:15:18 - 1:15:21] ▶
Had you heard anything related to the Bob Lazar story at that time?
[1:15:21 - 1:15:26] ▶
No, nobody was mentioning that.
[1:15:26 - 1:15:28] ▶
No one was talking about that.
[1:15:28 - 1:15:29] ▶
I had heard about him in the news, but he was not my concern.
[1:15:29 - 1:15:33] ▶
So you're, you refused to go to the weather station, but you're in Dreamland and you're thinking
[1:15:37 - 1:15:41] ▶
When, when was the first time where you were somewhere in Dreamland there, where you were in a room or in a place or in a moment where you realized you were going to be read in on some things that maybe are not of this earth.
[1:15:43 - 1:16:00] ▶
That came pretty soon after my base tour because the guys that I was going to be working with the other analysts like me myself, who are all about the same rank.
[1:16:00 - 1:16:10] ▶
They took me over to what they call the Cantina on the base.
[1:16:10 - 1:16:16] ▶
And it's old, it's probably World War One, World War Two kind of building.
[1:16:16 - 1:16:22] ▶
But it's just a place where you can go cook hot dogs and hamburgers and drink beer and do whatever.
[1:16:22 - 1:16:27] ▶
It's just a Cantina.
[1:16:27 - 1:16:29] ▶
And it was the stupidest freaking thing I ever seen them do to me.
[1:16:29 - 1:16:33] ▶
But they gave me a piece of paper that had the full list of what it looked like was going to be my job.
[1:16:33 - 1:16:39] ▶
And there were stuff in there talking about UFOs and all kinds of weird stuff that I was going to be exposed to.
[1:16:39 - 1:16:45] ▶
But they only let me read it for less than a minute.
[1:16:45 - 1:16:48] ▶
In other words, I couldn't, I could not possibly read every word.
[1:16:48 - 1:16:52] ▶
But you can see keywords in here.
[1:16:52 - 1:16:54] ▶
Yeah, because as an intel guy, you have to learn how to scan things pretty quickly.
[1:16:54 - 1:16:58] ▶
So I did do this grocery scan so I was picking up on, oh wow, this is UFOs.
[1:16:58 - 1:17:03] ▶
This is about exotic materials. This is about scientists working on stuff, you know, and reverse engineering.
[1:17:03 - 1:17:09] ▶
All these things were hitting me.
[1:17:09 - 1:17:11] ▶
And then I started trying to read through there.
[1:17:11 - 1:17:13] ▶
It was the dumbest thing. They came barreling in and they're trying to grab the paper.
[1:17:13 - 1:17:18] ▶
And I knew I hadn't finished it and they're trying to grab it.
[1:17:18 - 1:17:20] ▶
And they're chasing me around the continuum with me holding this piece of paper.
[1:17:20 - 1:17:24] ▶
And then finally they grabbed it from me and they tore it away before I could finish reading the whole thing.
[1:17:24 - 1:17:29] ▶
So that was kind of goofy.
[1:17:29 - 1:17:31] ▶
And they said that's it.
[1:17:31 - 1:17:33] ▶
We only got a few minutes.
[1:17:33 - 1:17:34] ▶
We only got a little bit of time to read it myself.
[1:17:34 - 1:17:36] ▶
But that has to peak your imagination.
[1:17:36 - 1:17:38] ▶
Yeah, they just said we just did that just to show you that, you know, you've got some serious stuff that you're going to have to learn.
[1:17:38 - 1:17:43] ▶
So I was like, who could you know, and off I went.
[1:17:43 - 1:17:47] ▶
And then we went back. We flew back that afternoon back to Nellis and I went back to my dormitory.
[1:17:47 - 1:17:53] ▶
And then the next thing I knew they called me on another Friday and we were going out for my first mission.
[1:17:53 - 1:17:58] ▶
Did they tell you anything about what the mission would be?
[1:17:58 - 1:18:01] ▶
No, you just get a call that Friday.
[1:18:01 - 1:18:03] ▶
Have your bags packed.
[1:18:03 - 1:18:04] ▶
We'll tell you on the way.
[1:18:04 - 1:18:05] ▶
All right. Now, how many guys did you go on this mission with?
[1:18:05 - 1:18:08] ▶
It was always the same three guys, sometimes and an OSI team.
[1:18:08 - 1:18:12] ▶
Okay. So these are guys you work with closely and that you're tight with.
[1:18:12 - 1:18:15] ▶
They're the only people involved out of 200 people in my career field.
[1:18:15 - 1:18:19] ▶
There's only four guys doing the job.
[1:18:19 - 1:18:21] ▶
Where did they take you?
[1:18:22 - 1:18:24] ▶
They took me to England for the first mission.
[1:18:24 - 1:18:27] ▶
And what did you have to do when you got there?
[1:18:27 - 1:18:30] ▶
We were told by the trusted agents for that organization because we were doing the telecommunications monitoring.
[1:18:30 - 1:18:37] ▶
Usually the only people that even knew we were on the base was the commander and maybe one other staffer.
[1:18:37 - 1:18:43] ▶
That's because they wanted people talking like they normally do every day.
[1:18:44 - 1:18:48] ▶
So that we get an honest assessment for them because if everybody knows and I announce it,
[1:18:49 - 1:18:53] ▶
what's the first thing you're going to do that you know the inspection team's coming?
[1:18:53 - 1:18:56] ▶
Take brothers, listen in.
[1:18:56 - 1:18:58] ▶
That's what happens.
[1:19:01 - 1:19:02] ▶
So yeah, you get all that.
[1:19:02 - 1:19:04] ▶
But anyway, that's why we did it that way.
[1:19:04 - 1:19:06] ▶
So every mission was like that.
[1:19:06 - 1:19:09] ▶
Sometimes the commander would say, this is my mission.
[1:19:09 - 1:19:12] ▶
This is what I want you to focus on other times they'd be like, I don't want you to know anything.
[1:19:12 - 1:19:16] ▶
I want you to attack this as if you knew nothing like a Russian or a Chinese person would.
[1:19:16 - 1:19:21] ▶
You break it down as they would.
[1:19:22 - 1:19:23] ▶
And you've used this term.
[1:19:23 - 1:19:24] ▶
It's I believe it's red team, right?
[1:19:24 - 1:19:26] ▶
So you used that throughout the day.
[1:19:27 - 1:19:28] ▶
I haven't cut you off the net.
[1:19:28 - 1:19:29] ▶
But but now we're here.
[1:19:30 - 1:19:31] ▶
So essentially the way I understand this is that you guys are operating in a way that you're trying to be counter intelligence
[1:19:32 - 1:19:40] ▶
to figure out like, okay, if we were say China, how would we get into X system or something like that?
[1:19:40 - 1:19:48] ▶
Is that fair to say?
[1:19:48 - 1:19:49] ▶
It's kind of well, I get yes, that's how we attack it.
[1:19:50 - 1:19:54] ▶
That's why we you call it a red team.
[1:19:54 - 1:19:56] ▶
Red means enemy when you talk about the Air Force because it blue forces friendly forces red team.
[1:19:56 - 1:20:02] ▶
Red force is an enemy force.
[1:20:02 - 1:20:04] ▶
So red teaming just means that you're part of the team, but you're going to attack it from the enemy's viewpoint with that type of discipline.
[1:20:04 - 1:20:12] ▶
So that when we reported on it, it would be as if, you know, this is the real no kidding Monty on what we can pick up without knowing anything coming into this.
[1:20:12 - 1:20:21] ▶
And sometimes that's the way we'd roll it.
[1:20:21 - 1:20:23] ▶
Would you do that looking for vulnerabilities?
[1:20:23 - 1:20:25] ▶
Looking for any vulnerabilities.
[1:20:26 - 1:20:28] ▶
And then we had the OSI team members there as well.
[1:20:28 - 1:20:31] ▶
And they would be trying to, you know, backdoor in into skiff areas and get into people's offices.
[1:20:31 - 1:20:38] ▶
And sometimes they'd be able to break in and then we get a phone call that I could pick up and say, Hey, J, it's me.
[1:20:38 - 1:20:44] ▶
You know, they clicked the phone.
[1:20:46 - 1:20:48] ▶
I'd be like, Hey, they got in.
[1:20:49 - 1:20:50] ▶
So that was part of the whole thing.
[1:20:50 - 1:20:52] ▶
So the OSI team would be doing that kind of stuff, whether they'd be doing like the physical security.
[1:20:52 - 1:20:57] ▶
And sometimes we would help the OSI agents though because we would show up at like going away parties like if I was listening to the phones for the week, we knew somebody's going away party was going to happen.
[1:20:57 - 1:21:07] ▶
Well, we would just show up and invite air.
[1:21:07 - 1:21:10] ▶
So we would and we would try to see if we get any intel off of them.
[1:21:10 - 1:21:14] ▶
And the OSI team would come in long with us and do that or we do things like dumpster diving.
[1:21:14 - 1:21:19] ▶
Yeah, because a lot of papers, you know, people throw things in a trash.
[1:21:20 - 1:21:23] ▶
You're supposed to use a shredder for classified documents and everything and stuff that's sensitive or could be sensitive.
[1:21:23 - 1:21:29] ▶
And people are awful about what goes in their trash bin.
[1:21:29 - 1:21:33] ▶
So dumpster diving is a big wave.
[1:21:34 - 1:21:36] ▶
People learn intel is that you go in there.
[1:21:36 - 1:21:38] ▶
You pull out the trash bags.
[1:21:38 - 1:21:39] ▶
Yeah, you're literally talking about dumpster diving.
[1:21:39 - 1:21:41] ▶
You actually had it.
[1:21:41 - 1:21:42] ▶
We had agents waiting to see this particular office throwing away their trash.
[1:21:42 - 1:21:46] ▶
And they were like, OK, and then they immediately as soon as they got the green light, they'd be.
[1:21:47 - 1:21:51] ▶
They'd go through their grabbing trash bags out.
[1:21:51 - 1:21:54] ▶
And that's how we did our work.
[1:21:54 - 1:21:57] ▶
So this first mission that you and the other three guys go on and what where did you say?
[1:21:57 - 1:22:02] ▶
Eggland here for space.
[1:22:02 - 1:22:03] ▶
We're maybe I was misunderstanding this, but is this on this mission?
[1:22:06 - 1:22:10] ▶
Do you run into something where you think it's like any chi?
[1:22:10 - 1:22:15] ▶
Let me put it that way.
[1:22:16 - 1:22:17] ▶
It was on a part of the base that you don't normally go to.
[1:22:17 - 1:22:22] ▶
It had strange things on the rooftops of the buildings there.
[1:22:22 - 1:22:27] ▶
I don't know what purpose they served.
[1:22:27 - 1:22:30] ▶
And I honestly don't remember part of the mission there.
[1:22:30 - 1:22:35] ▶
I remember going into the lobby to meet our points of contact.
[1:22:35 - 1:22:39] ▶
And sometime or another, I don't remember anything else except leaving.
[1:22:39 - 1:22:45] ▶
So you don't remember the work you did.
[1:22:46 - 1:22:48] ▶
I don't remember what we did there.
[1:22:48 - 1:22:50] ▶
But these missions would now start happening.
[1:22:51 - 1:22:53] ▶
And then how often would you say on average?
[1:22:54 - 1:22:56] ▶
Three or four a year.
[1:22:56 - 1:22:57] ▶
Different locations.
[1:22:58 - 1:22:59] ▶
And what length of time average each?
[1:22:59 - 1:23:01] ▶
We'd have the first week and then you'd have a little space of two days for the weekend.
[1:23:05 - 1:23:08] ▶
And you'd do whatever you like.
[1:23:08 - 1:23:09] ▶
And then the second week you do the hot wash on that last Friday.
[1:23:09 - 1:23:13] ▶
And you'd just do the hot wash.
[1:23:13 - 1:23:15] ▶
It was just a down and dirty of our findings with the staff.
[1:23:15 - 1:23:19] ▶
That was a lot of coming to that briefing.
[1:23:19 - 1:23:21] ▶
And most of what you're doing ends up involving more of the traditional things,
[1:23:21 - 1:23:25] ▶
which is counter-intel involving things that could be other countries.
[1:23:25 - 1:23:28] ▶
But in the middle of this, you mentioned this part.
[1:23:28 - 1:23:30] ▶
So you don't remember at least that first mission.
[1:23:30 - 1:23:32] ▶
And then there's some things that are just weird.
[1:23:32 - 1:23:35] ▶
But you're not at meaning in your mind, you're not at a point yet where I'm like,
[1:23:36 - 1:23:40] ▶
where you're thinking, all right, this is really like a UFO job.
[1:23:40 - 1:23:44] ▶
Like I'm looking for alien type stuff.
[1:23:44 - 1:23:46] ▶
That right Patterson Air Force Base.
[1:23:49 - 1:23:51] ▶
But meaning like that's a separate thing to you.
[1:23:52 - 1:23:54] ▶
You're like, I know they do that there, but you know, whatever we're doing here,
[1:23:54 - 1:23:56] ▶
even though we're a dream land, you know, this is more normal stuff.
[1:23:56 - 1:23:59] ▶
That's all you're thinking of it.
[1:23:59 - 1:24:01] ▶
When did that change?
[1:24:02 - 1:24:03] ▶
It was my first right-pat mission, I would say.
[1:24:04 - 1:24:06] ▶
That's when I really started to think.
[1:24:06 - 1:24:07] ▶
Oh, you did a right-pat mission.
[1:24:07 - 1:24:09] ▶
Yeah, because we did the Eggland.
[1:24:09 - 1:24:11] ▶
And then I think we did a right-pat mission.
[1:24:11 - 1:24:13] ▶
And then we went back to Eggland again.
[1:24:13 - 1:24:16] ▶
And it's all jumbled up.
[1:24:16 - 1:24:18] ▶
And I can't remember all the different ones.
[1:24:18 - 1:24:20] ▶
But I think that first year, that's the way it went.
[1:24:20 - 1:24:22] ▶
Eggland, right-pat, back to Eggland.
[1:24:22 - 1:24:24] ▶
And then after that, it's not too sure.
[1:24:24 - 1:24:26] ▶
And what happened at this, at this right-pat one,
[1:24:26 - 1:24:29] ▶
you're referring to though, were things changed?
[1:24:29 - 1:24:31] ▶
That's where we were talking earlier about this really strange stuff.
[1:24:31 - 1:24:34] ▶
Like picking up my gist sheet and saying, what the hell is this?
[1:24:34 - 1:24:37] ▶
And that's, and the other guys would come up and they put the headphones on
[1:24:38 - 1:24:42] ▶
and they'd make me replay the recording in a number of times until,
[1:24:42 - 1:24:45] ▶
and they were all were just in shock.
[1:24:45 - 1:24:47] ▶
Just like I was, and I'm like, what the hell is this?
[1:24:47 - 1:24:50] ▶
And sometimes the lead analyst would go across the street
[1:24:50 - 1:24:53] ▶
and he wouldn't come back for hours.
[1:24:53 - 1:24:55] ▶
And he was probably talking to the leadership and saying,
[1:24:55 - 1:24:58] ▶
this is what we intercepted.
[1:24:58 - 1:25:00] ▶
And I remember one, in one time, in particular,
[1:25:00 - 1:25:03] ▶
where they actually stopped monitoring one of the lines
[1:25:03 - 1:25:07] ▶
and turned it over to the lead analyst.
[1:25:07 - 1:25:09] ▶
And he was the only one allowed to listen in.
[1:25:09 - 1:25:12] ▶
And you're not able, even though your wife's in the military and everything,
[1:25:12 - 1:25:15] ▶
like this is all top secrets.
[1:25:15 - 1:25:18] ▶
So you can't go home and talk about this with anyone.
[1:25:18 - 1:25:20] ▶
And I never talked to my wife about it.
[1:25:20 - 1:25:21] ▶
I totally have to compartmentalize it.
[1:25:21 - 1:25:23] ▶
Yeah, I actually, because what I was doing was my normal job,
[1:25:23 - 1:25:26] ▶
whichever the other one in six was doing, was doing a red flag exercises
[1:25:26 - 1:25:30] ▶
and all the telecommunications monitoring that was elsewhere around the continental US,
[1:25:30 - 1:25:35] ▶
that were not in this particular program.
[1:25:36 - 1:25:39] ▶
But I also had to do like this additional work for the program.
[1:25:39 - 1:25:44] ▶
So I was doing all my normal stuff.
[1:25:44 - 1:25:46] ▶
So I looked like a normal guy to everybody else, even my wife.
[1:25:46 - 1:25:49] ▶
And there was this part of me that I would just leave on a mission.
[1:25:49 - 1:25:52] ▶
And I would just tell my wife, hey, I got to go on telecommunications mission.
[1:25:52 - 1:25:55] ▶
And she would just say, oh, another one of those.
[1:25:55 - 1:25:58] ▶
But I actually wouldn't know that it was part of the program.
[1:25:58 - 1:26:01] ▶
And we've been hinting at all day, the 94 Nellis incident,
[1:26:01 - 1:26:04] ▶
which is where it was where there was like a drone like a leak of a UFO encounter.
[1:26:04 - 1:26:10] ▶
Where were you in this happen?
[1:26:12 - 1:26:13] ▶
How did you find out about this?
[1:26:13 - 1:26:14] ▶
I was out of the program at that point.
[1:26:14 - 1:26:16] ▶
I think I left the program earlier that year.
[1:26:16 - 1:26:19] ▶
And then this incident happened where the first indication I had that something strange had happened
[1:26:19 - 1:26:28] ▶
the week before I was going up rains to do the red flag exercises.
[1:26:28 - 1:26:31] ▶
The other guys, the other team was coming back home.
[1:26:31 - 1:26:34] ▶
Some of them had seen something.
[1:26:34 - 1:26:36] ▶
And they're like, I don't know what it was.
[1:26:36 - 1:26:38] ▶
You know, they did had they had no idea what this thing was.
[1:26:38 - 1:26:41] ▶
And some of them didn't want to talk about it either.
[1:26:41 - 1:26:45] ▶
And so I was like, really curious.
[1:26:45 - 1:26:47] ▶
But anyway, I was out of the program already.
[1:26:47 - 1:26:50] ▶
So I had nothing to do with my program time or 10 year and that.
[1:26:50 - 1:26:55] ▶
This was just us driving up range for the next week on the following Monday,
[1:26:56 - 1:27:00] ▶
because that Friday, everybody else came in and they were like, yeah, we saw something.
[1:27:00 - 1:27:05] ▶
And then that following Friday or following Monday, you know, I went up range.
[1:27:05 - 1:27:10] ▶
And is this when you had the encounter?
[1:27:10 - 1:27:12] ▶
And that's when I had the encounter.
[1:27:13 - 1:27:14] ▶
And so you're not in the program now.
[1:27:14 - 1:27:16] ▶
You're doing other things.
[1:27:16 - 1:27:17] ▶
I'm just doing my normal job now.
[1:27:18 - 1:27:19] ▶
So take me to this day.
[1:27:20 - 1:27:22] ▶
What what goes down?
[1:27:22 - 1:27:23] ▶
You said you're going up range.
[1:27:23 - 1:27:24] ▶
It's sunlight's out right?
[1:27:24 - 1:27:25] ▶
Our normal day up range would be there was two pushes.
[1:27:28 - 1:27:31] ▶
Pushes means two times during the day when the aircraft would fly and do all their dog fighting.
[1:27:31 - 1:27:37] ▶
And then they go back.
[1:27:37 - 1:27:38] ▶
So there was the AM push, which took place in the morning in the PM push that took place at night or in the afternoon.
[1:27:38 - 1:27:44] ▶
So we were going up to do our for the AM push that morning.
[1:27:44 - 1:27:49] ▶
So we all get in the vehicles, which were Chevy Blazers camouflaged.
[1:27:49 - 1:27:53] ▶
And we didn't get six pack trucks for a while.
[1:27:54 - 1:27:58] ▶
You know, the girl with king cabs, the exchange all of them.
[1:27:58 - 1:28:02] ▶
But anyway, they're Chevy Blazers.
[1:28:02 - 1:28:04] ▶
And we went up range into, we took off from the burrow in, which is where we were staying.
[1:28:04 - 1:28:11] ▶
And we went up north and west from that location.
[1:28:11 - 1:28:15] ▶
And it's only about, it takes you about 45 minutes or to an hour to get to Black Mountain.
[1:28:16 - 1:28:22] ▶
And it's just open desert.
[1:28:22 - 1:28:24] ▶
You're just driving.
[1:28:24 - 1:28:25] ▶
Yeah, it's all dirt roads, you know, horrible driving.
[1:28:25 - 1:28:27] ▶
Yeah, there's some of the roads couldn't even handle more than one car.
[1:28:29 - 1:28:33] ▶
But anyway, so we're just traveling up for the day.
[1:28:34 - 1:28:37] ▶
And was this four of you like, like, like, meaning like, is it the regular three guys you referred to earlier?
[1:28:37 - 1:28:42] ▶
Or now that you're out of the program, it's a different kind of kids and there's all different kinds of people.
[1:28:42 - 1:28:46] ▶
Yeah, it's different, all different kinds of people.
[1:28:46 - 1:28:48] ▶
And there's about three, about three to four.
[1:28:49 - 1:28:52] ▶
Sometimes it was four, sometimes it was three, depending.
[1:28:53 - 1:28:56] ▶
How many people per car, roughly?
[1:28:56 - 1:28:58] ▶
My car had four, other cars had two, another one had three, that kind of thing.
[1:28:58 - 1:29:03] ▶
Just, how are we split it up?
[1:29:04 - 1:29:06] ▶
You know, you just, you like, you get in the car.
[1:29:06 - 1:29:08] ▶
Yeah, you get in the car and you like hanging out with certain people.
[1:29:08 - 1:29:10] ▶
And some people like, I got shot again, you know, and it still, it's dumb as that sounds that's what you do.
[1:29:10 - 1:29:15] ▶
So you just get in there and you just take off.
[1:29:16 - 1:29:18] ▶
So we were just traveling up from the hotel and this, this guy who was there from the week before that I'd seen the UFO.
[1:29:18 - 1:29:28] ▶
He's the ranking individual this time around.
[1:29:28 - 1:29:30] ▶
He says, we're going to stop off of the controlman area.
[1:29:30 - 1:29:33] ▶
The controlman area is just this fenced in area where you could go and you could repair your tires, gas up.
[1:29:33 - 1:29:39] ▶
But at the other end of this,
[1:29:40 - 1:29:42] ▶
Contominary area, there's these two little huts that look like campers.
[1:29:42 - 1:29:46] ▶
And off to the right hand side, I'd never been to it to, to, to, how many, any other occasion.
[1:29:46 - 1:29:52] ▶
But the video operators for the range are in there.
[1:29:52 - 1:29:55] ▶
And so he said, we got to go in here.
[1:29:55 - 1:29:58] ▶
The video operator wants to talk to us.
[1:29:58 - 1:30:00] ▶
So everybody got out of the vehicles, all three or four vehicles, full of us all went in.
[1:30:00 - 1:30:06] ▶
And the video operator pulls out a piece of paper and says, everybody sign your name.
[1:30:06 - 1:30:11] ▶
Tell me whether you're here last week or not.
[1:30:11 - 1:30:13] ▶
And if you saw what I'm about ready to show you.
[1:30:13 - 1:30:16] ▶
And he plays back the video ends up being the same exact video that you see out there on the internet.
[1:30:16 - 1:30:23] ▶
They got leaked to the news of a UFO on the Nellis test range in 1994.
[1:30:23 - 1:30:30] ▶
September, October, November, what was the problem?
[1:30:30 - 1:30:33] ▶
It was definitely freaking cold that day.
[1:30:33 - 1:30:36] ▶
I mean, you're talking the type of cold where I'm wearing a field jacket, it's liner, and everything else.
[1:30:36 - 1:30:42] ▶
And this wind is biting right through it.
[1:30:42 - 1:30:44] ▶
And you're talking desert, you know, early morning, you know, and it gets cold in the desert, cold bird in some other places.
[1:30:45 - 1:30:53] ▶
So anyway, we're in the, the hut and the guy shows us the video.
[1:30:53 - 1:30:57] ▶
And I'm like, what the heck is that thing?
[1:30:57 - 1:30:59] ▶
And some of the other people are looking at it and other people looking at it going, oh, boy, that's what I saw.
[1:31:00 - 1:31:06] ▶
Oh, boy, you know, yeah, that's it.
[1:31:06 - 1:31:08] ▶
So we're all writing our name on the piece of paper and then he says, thank you.
[1:31:08 - 1:31:11] ▶
There's two individuals on the other far wall and one of them is a lady.
[1:31:11 - 1:31:16] ▶
And as I'm exiting the door, she grabs me by the shoulder and she says, there's somebody on the ring.
[1:31:16 - 1:31:21] ▶
Don't talk to him, you know.
[1:31:21 - 1:31:23] ▶
And I'm like, thank you, strange lady.
[1:31:23 - 1:31:26] ▶
You know, she looked like she was just part of the, you know, because there's people, there's maintainers for all these videos, the cameras and the other equipment that's out there because we simulate both the ground air missiles.
[1:31:28 - 1:31:43] ▶
Those people that have to take care of that, that piece of equipment.
[1:31:43 - 1:31:47] ▶
There's people that have to take care of the video cameras, like I said, in all the different places they are.
[1:31:47 - 1:31:51] ▶
They were probably just people that were hired to maintain things.
[1:31:51 - 1:31:55] ▶
Some of them are mechanics so that, yeah, if you have a breakdown with your car, some of them can fix your car for you.
[1:31:56 - 1:32:02] ▶
When you say there's videos on the range, you mean there's cameras strewn about in various locations.
[1:32:03 - 1:32:09] ▶
Yes, they're controlled by somebody who's in that hut.
[1:32:09 - 1:32:12] ▶
Right. And well, there's several huts, I believe.
[1:32:12 - 1:32:14] ▶
Are they triggered when there's motion in the air?
[1:32:14 - 1:32:16] ▶
Okay, so there's something in the air, these things will pick up on it and start recording.
[1:32:17 - 1:32:20] ▶
Yeah, because they're safety of flight, you know, if there's an accident in mid-air collision or something,
[1:32:20 - 1:32:25] ▶
they want the video to figure out if they could have done something to prevent it.
[1:32:25 - 1:32:28] ▶
Okay, so there's got videos all across Nellis Sess range.
[1:32:28 - 1:32:32] ▶
It's real quick just before we go on.
[1:32:33 - 1:32:35] ▶
I know like we're facing everything.
[1:32:35 - 1:32:37] ▶
Oh, you face like a little bit.
[1:32:37 - 1:32:39] ▶
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[1:32:40 - 1:32:41] ▶
Still face Jason, I haven't wanted to bother you with it, but like kind of have an angle like that.
[1:32:41 - 1:32:44] ▶
Yeah, just it makes the camera easier.
[1:32:44 - 1:32:46] ▶
So when you say cameras, you mean there's sensors throughout the Nellis Sess range that get triggered when there's something.
[1:32:46 - 1:32:55] ▶
Yeah, they're equipped with radar.
[1:32:55 - 1:32:57] ▶
Yeah, you've been talking a lot.
[1:33:01 - 1:33:03] ▶
Got clear that throw a little bit.
[1:33:03 - 1:33:05] ▶
We got the important stuff coming up right now.
[1:33:05 - 1:33:07] ▶
Anyway, yeah, that feels better.
[1:33:09 - 1:33:12] ▶
Anyway, so yes, the cameras can rotate, you know, all kinds of...
[1:33:12 - 1:33:20] ▶
They can be controlled remotely.
[1:33:20 - 1:33:22] ▶
And they document things on the...
[1:33:22 - 1:33:24] ▶
And they're also connected with the little radar that's nearby.
[1:33:25 - 1:33:28] ▶
So if it does lock in or on a craft, this radar kind of locks the camera and it follows it.
[1:33:28 - 1:33:35] ▶
You go into this little hut and you're shown the video from a couple days prior of an unknown object, a UAP, a UFO that everyone's talking about.
[1:33:38 - 1:33:49] ▶
And they want a list of people that have been there who'd witnessed it from a couple days prior, you were not one of them.
[1:33:50 - 1:33:55] ▶
No, it was not there the first week.
[1:33:55 - 1:33:57] ▶
Is this hut souped out?
[1:33:57 - 1:33:58] ▶
Like, is there some strange elevators that go down like fucking 40 layers or something?
[1:33:58 - 1:34:02] ▶
No, not this one now.
[1:34:02 - 1:34:03] ▶
But there are other ones.
[1:34:05 - 1:34:06] ▶
There's one in the Tonapar range that you'd be interested to hear about.
[1:34:06 - 1:34:09] ▶
They got Will Smith and Tommy Lee down there.
[1:34:09 - 1:34:11] ▶
No, not that I know of.
[1:34:14 - 1:34:16] ▶
If they were down there, they're in big trouble.
[1:34:16 - 1:34:19] ▶
But no, this one was just a hut for these guys to operate out of.
[1:34:22 - 1:34:26] ▶
And that's pretty much what they did, but this was a very unique craft that they couldn't explain coming onto the range.
[1:34:26 - 1:34:33] ▶
It shouldn't have been there.
[1:34:33 - 1:34:36] ▶
However, the following Monday, because this had happened on that Friday, and we were allowed to come up on Monday, it's obvious.
[1:34:36 - 1:34:44] ▶
Somebody did not report it properly because they usually shut down the whole range.
[1:34:44 - 1:34:49] ▶
So this did not happen.
[1:34:49 - 1:34:51] ▶
And the lady comes up to you at some point and says there's somebody on the range.
[1:34:51 - 1:34:55] ▶
And she looked like, why does a sheet like she was really upset?
[1:34:56 - 1:34:59] ▶
So you're like, I'm going to go talk to them.
[1:34:59 - 1:35:01] ▶
No, I didn't even, I just thought she was weird and I didn't even expect to run into anybody because I was like, thanks.
[1:35:01 - 1:35:08] ▶
I didn't know what to tell her.
[1:35:08 - 1:35:10] ▶
I'm just like, okay.
[1:35:10 - 1:35:12] ▶
You know, what did you say?
[1:35:12 - 1:35:14] ▶
You know, at that point, you know, because I was just like, so you go back out there and you jump in the trucks.
[1:35:15 - 1:35:19] ▶
We jump in the trucks, we start taking off and we start headed towards Courts Mountain from the Continental area, because there's a sharp right hand turn that goes towards Courts Mountain.
[1:35:19 - 1:35:28] ▶
And you get a travel about even my or so from that Continental area and then you take another left and you keep on heading gradually up through the dirt roads to get the Black Mountain.
[1:35:28 - 1:35:38] ▶
Real quick, Alessie, can you just pull up on the map Courts Mountain just so people can see this real quick so they have a little lay of the land of exactly where it is.
[1:35:38 - 1:35:46] ▶
Obviously, we've been saying Nevada this whole time.
[1:35:46 - 1:35:48] ▶
But we've been dropping around.
[1:35:48 - 1:35:49] ▶
Yeah, when Ellis test range map that you can pull up.
[1:35:49 - 1:35:52] ▶
Yeah, let's try that.
[1:35:52 - 1:35:53] ▶
I just want to lay the land for a sec.
[1:35:53 - 1:35:55] ▶
Oh, that looks like the gate where you come through.
[1:35:55 - 1:35:58] ▶
That's the one that every.
[1:35:58 - 1:36:00] ▶
Is that the one you're looking for Jason?
[1:36:04 - 1:36:06] ▶
It'll be it'll look just like a flat map like that on the right Nevada test range.
[1:36:08 - 1:36:13] ▶
Yeah, go to the one on the far left up there.
[1:36:15 - 1:36:18] ▶
If that one doesn't have enough fidelity, I'll make it better.
[1:36:18 - 1:36:21] ▶
Okay, this is perfect.
[1:36:23 - 1:36:24] ▶
It's almost the exact same size of the state.
[1:36:30 - 1:36:31] ▶
I mean, it's very little area.
[1:36:31 - 1:36:32] ▶
So anyway, it's not a lot going on out there.
[1:36:33 - 1:36:36] ▶
So you see Las Vegas and the bottom left there.
[1:36:38 - 1:36:41] ▶
So we had to try to.
[1:36:41 - 1:36:42] ▶
You see Bati is right there.
[1:36:46 - 1:36:47] ▶
Right at the kind of on the.
[1:36:47 - 1:36:48] ▶
That's where we would start from.
[1:36:53 - 1:36:54] ▶
You want to go point?
[1:37:00 - 1:37:01] ▶
Because I was just going to say.
[1:37:02 - 1:37:04] ▶
Getting the real deal here.
[1:37:04 - 1:37:05] ▶
Oh, point to that one more time, Jay.
[1:37:10 - 1:37:11] ▶
Just a few people can see it.
[1:37:11 - 1:37:12] ▶
Now camera 5 or less.
[1:37:15 - 1:37:16] ▶
So you start at Bati.
[1:37:17 - 1:37:18] ▶
Now, you go up this way.
[1:37:22 - 1:37:23] ▶
And then you get onto the range.
[1:37:23 - 1:37:24] ▶
He's pointing to the west side by California.
[1:37:25 - 1:37:28] ▶
You come up this way.
[1:37:28 - 1:37:29] ▶
And then you would turn in.
[1:37:29 - 1:37:30] ▶
To get up to the black mountain.
[1:37:30 - 1:37:31] ▶
And now he's moving right towards me.
[1:37:31 - 1:37:33] ▶
In this area right here.
[1:37:35 - 1:37:36] ▶
This is for people listening, not watching.
[1:37:37 - 1:37:38] ▶
Obviously if you're watching, you can see where he's pointing.
[1:37:38 - 1:37:40] ▶
So it's about right here.
[1:37:41 - 1:37:42] ▶
I need a map that has more.
[1:37:42 - 1:37:43] ▶
But that's good enough.
[1:37:48 - 1:37:49] ▶
Is this where you actually have the.
[1:38:01 - 1:38:02] ▶
And it's on the way to Corch Mountain that.
[1:38:03 - 1:38:05] ▶
I have the encounter.
[1:38:05 - 1:38:06] ▶
I am sitting there in the vehicle.
[1:38:08 - 1:38:11] ▶
I've got the driver.
[1:38:11 - 1:38:12] ▶
He's the ranking individual.
[1:38:12 - 1:38:13] ▶
We're in the lead vehicle.
[1:38:13 - 1:38:14] ▶
And I'm sitting right behind the driver.
[1:38:14 - 1:38:15] ▶
You're in the back seat.
[1:38:16 - 1:38:17] ▶
I'm in the back seat.
[1:38:17 - 1:38:18] ▶
Is it a four door truck?
[1:38:19 - 1:38:20] ▶
It's a four door truck.
[1:38:20 - 1:38:21] ▶
I didn't give you shotgun.
[1:38:22 - 1:38:23] ▶
No, they didn't give me shotgun.
[1:38:24 - 1:38:25] ▶
And then you all it's been enough for the other guy got it.
[1:38:27 - 1:38:28] ▶
And then the guy in the front right in the passenger side.
[1:38:34 - 1:38:37] ▶
Another person to my right.
[1:38:41 - 1:38:42] ▶
So anyway, we're just.
[1:38:44 - 1:38:45] ▶
Just traveling as we normally do.
[1:38:45 - 1:38:47] ▶
With at least two cars behind you.
[1:38:47 - 1:38:48] ▶
Well, at least two other cars behind us in the convoy.
[1:38:48 - 1:38:51] ▶
And we always convoy just in case somebody does break a axle or whatever.
[1:38:51 - 1:38:55] ▶
And we pick them up.
[1:38:55 - 1:38:56] ▶
So there's this guy in our uniform.
[1:38:58 - 1:39:00] ▶
Looks like he's coming down the left hand shoulder of the road.
[1:39:00 - 1:39:03] ▶
I notice that when he was about a football field away.
[1:39:10 - 1:39:14] ▶
And he's kind of like standing there and then he saw us and he started.
[1:39:15 - 1:39:18] ▶
Like running towards us and he had this funny look to his running.
[1:39:18 - 1:39:22] ▶
It was like he was falling forward all the time.
[1:39:22 - 1:39:25] ▶
Or like he was running against a really strong wind.
[1:39:25 - 1:39:28] ▶
Is he from far away, though?
[1:39:29 - 1:39:31] ▶
Is your first seeing him?
[1:39:31 - 1:39:33] ▶
Is he running in a way that would suggest.
[1:39:33 - 1:39:35] ▶
Oh, this seems like a human.
[1:39:35 - 1:39:36] ▶
Yes, somewhat. Yeah, he looked about human size and everything else. Everything he just looked like he had a uniform on like mine and
[1:39:36 - 1:39:43] ▶
He was just running towards us and as we approach
[1:39:44 - 1:39:47] ▶
That's when I noticed his skin had this blue tint to it like he was hypothermic
[1:39:48 - 1:39:52] ▶
That's what I thought my immediate thought was that he was hypothermic
[1:39:52 - 1:39:55] ▶
Hypothermic and he needed help. So it's like it's white skin, but it's turned like almost the bloods rushing
[1:39:56 - 1:40:02] ▶
It's not like a dark ocean blue or something. Oh, no, it's definitely not like dark navy blue or anything
[1:40:02 - 1:40:07] ▶
No, this is just like your eye
[1:40:07 - 1:40:09] ▶
All get out and we're starting to freeze. That's what it looked like to me
[1:40:11 - 1:40:15] ▶
That that level of blue was like holy crap, you know
[1:40:15 - 1:40:18] ▶
That was the level of blue. It wasn't because he was like dark blue or anything. It was just this undertone of blue
[1:40:19 - 1:40:24] ▶
So anyway, um, we get closer and closer and he's only a few feet away from the car and we're slowing down
[1:40:25 - 1:40:32] ▶
In the guy in the front seat just that's where I mentioned in the the film with you that that's when he brings screams out that he's got new ears
[1:40:32 - 1:40:39] ▶
Uh the guy in the front seat and I'm like uh the guy in the front seat that's sitting next to the driver
[1:40:40 - 1:40:44] ▶
Yeah, the passenger side guy in the front seat says he's got no ears and I'm thinking how rude
[1:40:44 - 1:40:49] ▶
You know, this guy's probably fighting for his life here hypothermic and you're talking about his ears, you know
[1:40:49 - 1:40:54] ▶
So I'm popping up in the door. I'm trying to take my jacket off at the same time because I'm thinking I got a rapid man something
[1:40:54 - 1:41:00] ▶
Because he's hypothermic and that's when I step out onto the roadway
[1:41:00 - 1:41:04] ▶
And I'm shutting the door and that's when I look up at him and I'm realizing he has no ears and his eyes are
[1:41:05 - 1:41:11] ▶
Or twice as big the normal
[1:41:11 - 1:41:13] ▶
And he does indeed have this blue
[1:41:14 - 1:41:16] ▶
Tint and that's when I felt like really scared because I was like oh crap. What did I walk into here?
[1:41:16 - 1:41:22] ▶
Um, how close is he to you now? He's only like three feet. It's always right in front of you. It's like you know me and James James apart
[1:41:22 - 1:41:29] ▶
Um, is he looking you in the eyes?
[1:41:29 - 1:41:31] ▶
Not immediately he kind of as I'm shutting the door and he realizes
[1:41:32 - 1:41:36] ▶
That I'm about ready to engage with him. He was he was like looking at the driver
[1:41:36 - 1:41:41] ▶
I don't know what he was thinking about doing
[1:41:42 - 1:41:44] ▶
But maybe he was gonna hail him or knock on the window. I don't know. Are you looking to see if he's armed?
[1:41:44 - 1:41:49] ▶
No, no, no, I'm just more concerned of for his health. Okay at that point because if he's on the range
[1:41:49 - 1:41:55] ▶
You know, I'm thinking he's in a uniform
[1:41:56 - 1:41:58] ▶
You know there were no red flags to be to sit there and think like oh, this is the criminal or this is some
[1:41:59 - 1:42:03] ▶
fugitive that's on the run, you know or stuff like that
[1:42:04 - 1:42:06] ▶
This guy just looked like a dude in a in a B.D.U. uniform or a battle dress uniform like I had
[1:42:09 - 1:42:14] ▶
So anyway, but now I'm looking at him straight on and I'm like oh, they crap this dude does not look human
[1:42:15 - 1:42:19] ▶
And I'm starting to get really scared but then he talks to me
[1:42:20 - 1:42:22] ▶
And that calms me down because he I had to respond
[1:42:23 - 1:42:25] ▶
He's wanting to fix and repair his craft and he's asking for that material that didn't tell him what it is voice out like
[1:42:27 - 1:42:34] ▶
English at all he did have an auditory he spoke
[1:42:36 - 1:42:39] ▶
But it sounded more like Norwegian or something like that
[1:42:39 - 1:42:42] ▶
So you couldn't understand what he spoke but you could understand what he was saying because there was something telepathic going on
[1:42:42 - 1:42:47] ▶
Right, I could understand what he was saying
[1:42:47 - 1:42:49] ▶
Regardless of what he was actually what was he saying
[1:42:49 - 1:42:51] ▶
He was saying, you know, my my craft is damaged. I need some
[1:42:52 - 1:42:55] ▶
Material to repair it. Do you have any tantillium?
[1:42:56 - 1:42:58] ▶
And I was like is that titanium? He's like no
[1:42:59 - 1:43:02] ▶
And so I was like well, you know pointed over to the dreamland
[1:43:03 - 1:43:07] ▶
I said those people might have some high tech metals and things like that and this wave of
[1:43:09 - 1:43:14] ▶
Emotion hits me like disgust like I'm not asking people like you know barbarians for that
[1:43:15 - 1:43:20] ▶
From him he's saying he's saying this and I'm getting that telepathic emotion of his being disgusted about me even mentioning it
[1:43:21 - 1:43:28] ▶
Are you at all looking at the guys at any point here who are with you?
[1:43:28 - 1:43:31] ▶
Yeah, I tended to look over a couple of times and what are they doing? They look like they were just zonked like zombies
[1:43:31 - 1:43:38] ▶
Almost laughed really they looked that they looked comical like
[1:43:40 - 1:43:44] ▶
Just totally literally like the men in black movie where people are stunned. Yeah, they're just
[1:43:46 - 1:43:50] ▶
You know, it's just kind of like you they're just zoned out. Yeah, that's what they look like
[1:43:51 - 1:43:54] ▶
Anyway, I look at them a couple of times and he keeps talking to me was the driver did the driver have the window down or the window up
[1:43:57 - 1:44:04] ▶
Sorry, it was does the driver I think at one point he did start rolling his window down
[1:44:07 - 1:44:12] ▶
But when he saw my daughter was opening up
[1:44:12 - 1:44:14] ▶
He I think he rolled it back up because it was freaking cold
[1:44:14 - 1:44:17] ▶
And he probably wanted to you know, stop the cold air from coming in
[1:44:17 - 1:44:21] ▶
So I think maybe the window was down partially maybe yeah, he could have but I don't really remember oh tell you the truth
[1:44:21 - 1:44:27] ▶
Are you now you're reacting to what's happening right here and you're having this communication?
[1:44:28 - 1:44:33] ▶
So there's like a lot of senses going on here
[1:44:33 - 1:44:35] ▶
But first of all how long is this full encounter with him? We're gonna get on long but it couldn't have been more than five minutes
[1:44:36 - 1:44:41] ▶
Is there a point in there where you are like holy shit?
[1:44:42 - 1:44:45] ▶
I'm talking to a fucking alien. Well, yeah after I realized this guy's talking another language
[1:44:45 - 1:44:50] ▶
being preoccupied by his constant talking to me and
[1:44:53 - 1:44:57] ▶
Yeah, I got the distinct impression that I was like in a holy crap situation
[1:44:59 - 1:45:03] ▶
So yeah, I felt definitely that there was definitely that this person was not human
[1:45:04 - 1:45:09] ▶
I've never been talked to by James or you or you
[1:45:10 - 1:45:12] ▶
Telepathically like that and if you have another language as your first language and still understanding you
[1:45:13 - 1:45:19] ▶
I've never had that happen before or since
[1:45:19 - 1:45:21] ▶
So how does it end you talk for five minutes what happens?
[1:45:22 - 1:45:24] ▶
He ends up going back to his craft
[1:45:26 - 1:45:28] ▶
He gets into it and as he's traveling above the roadway and travels off in the south to southeast range
[1:45:28 - 1:45:34] ▶
uh of the range and it's kind of
[1:45:35 - 1:45:38] ▶
towards Vegas actually and
[1:45:38 - 1:45:40] ▶
He just takes off and then everybody in the car finally is coming to and they don't have that zonked out look anymore
[1:45:42 - 1:45:49] ▶
What does the craft look like by the way you you did share it in the program documentary?
[1:45:49 - 1:45:53] ▶
Yes, let's go check it out great documentary jansk. But what does it look like?
[1:45:53 - 1:45:56] ▶
It's kind of got a bulbous
[1:45:57 - 1:45:59] ▶
cockpit and it's got like a little pad or foot footprint thing that comes off of it. Mm-hmm that how big
[1:45:59 - 1:46:05] ▶
Um, you can hold like two people like a cockpit of a fight or a jet
[1:46:06 - 1:46:10] ▶
Had you ever seen anything like it before? Never. I mean I you're talking to a guy along with the other people in the convoys that
[1:46:10 - 1:46:17] ▶
were there the the week before
[1:46:17 - 1:46:19] ▶
You literally when you do the red flag exercises you see all these craft not just you're own in
[1:46:19 - 1:46:25] ▶
In our inventory in the american inventory
[1:46:25 - 1:46:27] ▶
But we are actually helping our allies to train also with us
[1:46:27 - 1:46:31] ▶
So we literally knew what the bombers the fighters the every type of aircraft we already knew what they look like and this fit none of it
[1:46:31 - 1:46:38] ▶
Mm-hmm and that's exactly the feeling I had because they had a bulb
[1:46:39 - 1:46:42] ▶
Like a egg shaped cockpit
[1:46:43 - 1:46:45] ▶
That was about the same size as a normal fighter jet cockpit would look like
[1:46:45 - 1:46:49] ▶
It has this red or not red but black
[1:46:49 - 1:46:51] ▶
It's flat. It's about a foot or foot and a half wide
[1:46:54 - 1:46:57] ▶
Sticking out the back where the like if it was a helicopter
[1:46:57 - 1:47:00] ▶
It would have been the tail of the helicopter
[1:47:00 - 1:47:02] ▶
And then you know you see there's a helicopters that have like a big rounded
[1:47:02 - 1:47:06] ▶
Canopy yeah, yeah, wherever where the pilot said yes
[1:47:06 - 1:47:09] ▶
That's kind of what it looked like but it was all white except for the black pancake
[1:47:10 - 1:47:13] ▶
How far I think you just said this I might have asked this how far away was the craft from where you guys were first talking with him
[1:47:14 - 1:47:19] ▶
So you when when you're talking with him did you notice the craft in the background like were you looking at that at all?
[1:47:21 - 1:47:25] ▶
Yeah, cuz when I was getting out of the the car I definitely looked to my left as well
[1:47:25 - 1:47:30] ▶
And that's when I saw it full on was the craft parked on the road or
[1:47:31 - 1:47:36] ▶
In the desert it was in the desert it was off the road because as we were traveling
[1:47:36 - 1:47:39] ▶
You know this is the road towards quartz mountain yeah
[1:47:39 - 1:47:42] ▶
The craft was off to the side of the road off the shoulder of the road in the in the desert
[1:47:43 - 1:47:47] ▶
Do you think you'd be able to take us back to that exact point exactly where it was I could get you probably within about 10 feet
[1:47:47 - 1:47:52] ▶
Okay, so he goes back how did the conversation end by the way like what was the last thing he just well when I mentioned
[1:47:53 - 1:48:02] ▶
Talking to those people when you got disgusted it ended pretty quick after that
[1:48:03 - 1:48:07] ▶
But I just like getting fuck out of here. Yeah, well, he just said no, that's not gonna work
[1:48:08 - 1:48:12] ▶
And I said well the only other people I could think over like go to college down in downtown Vegas
[1:48:12 - 1:48:16] ▶
Because I was going to the community college
[1:48:16 - 1:48:18] ▶
And I was like I knew a geophysical
[1:48:19 - 1:48:21] ▶
Professor and I'm like maybe he's got a medal or just specialist friend of his and I was like maybe
[1:48:21 - 1:48:25] ▶
They have a professor down there and he's like okay
[1:48:26 - 1:48:29] ▶
Were you speaking English to him? Yeah, I had to speak English so you weren't thinking things you were speaking
[1:48:32 - 1:48:38] ▶
I was speaking yeah, yeah, okay, he understood he understood, but he's speaking back to you telepathically
[1:48:38 - 1:48:43] ▶
Yes, well, but was his mouth moving like gibberish coming out of his mouth. He's speaking like Norwegian
[1:48:44 - 1:48:48] ▶
Yeah, it's kind of like if I could talk to you and I could say something like
[1:48:48 - 1:48:51] ▶
In Spanish, you know like
[1:48:53 - 1:48:55] ▶
We look at him coming on mess. What a dualingo in my head is giving me English. Yeah, but it's same time on saying in the Spanish
[1:48:55 - 1:49:02] ▶
Yeah, you're understanding everything I said that yeah, okay
[1:49:02 - 1:49:04] ▶
So he goes back to the crap now the crap had a problem with it. He said he needed some shit
[1:49:05 - 1:49:09] ▶
But he takes off in it. Yeah, when it takes off doesn't make any noise
[1:49:09 - 1:49:13] ▶
Um, yeah, kind of like a
[1:49:13 - 1:49:15] ▶
I know how to put it
[1:49:19 - 1:49:21] ▶
What could I equate it to
[1:49:21 - 1:49:23] ▶
It's kind of like you ever hear your your fan belt
[1:49:26 - 1:49:29] ▶
Squeaking in your car. Yes. Yes, like
[1:49:30 - 1:49:33] ▶
It's kind of like that. Yeah, okay, so any any wings any propeller blades
[1:49:35 - 1:49:39] ▶
So it just moves up straight. Yeah, it kind of takes off like this and then as he he starts traveling
[1:49:40 - 1:49:46] ▶
horizontally, he's going up and like staring stuff because he had a he had an issue with the craft right
[1:49:46 - 1:49:51] ▶
And I think it was just when he was doing vertical
[1:49:51 - 1:49:54] ▶
Gaining altitude or losing altitude. That's that's the part that was broken and then at some point he disappears from view
[1:49:55 - 1:50:00] ▶
Right. Yeah, he just takes off he goes out of view. All right now. You're now no longer zonk guys are standing there
[1:50:00 - 1:50:06] ▶
Right, well, they're all in the car nobody else got out of their cars
[1:50:07 - 1:50:10] ▶
Um, but they were zonk you were saying when they had the zonk look they're in the car
[1:50:10 - 1:50:14] ▶
They're in the car and I just I and as the guy is traveling back and I'm getting back in the car. They all come to
[1:50:15 - 1:50:20] ▶
everybody seems to be normal and um, is anyone say what the fuck was that? No, it's just about to asek wasn't no nobody is talking about it
[1:50:23 - 1:50:31] ▶
And I'm like, did you guys see that and they're like no? Yeah, they're like no
[1:50:32 - 1:50:37] ▶
And I'm like, okay, well, let's just get to work all right. Wait a second. Was it in no like
[1:50:38 - 1:50:42] ▶
No, because whatever the fuck we just saw we can never talk about because that shit's crazy or was it like the guy the ranking guy
[1:50:43 - 1:50:49] ▶
I think he saw it. I know he I know he saw some of it because he was the only one that flat out said
[1:50:49 - 1:50:55] ▶
No, and don't talk about it. So you think that they
[1:50:55 - 1:50:58] ▶
Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth right here. You think that at least some of them may have had some lost time on this
[1:50:58 - 1:51:03] ▶
And for people out there can you explain what lost time is?
[1:51:05 - 1:51:08] ▶
That's just a portion of time where um, you either go you're either physically hit in the head and you can't remember
[1:51:08 - 1:51:15] ▶
Or some other means like you've here from abduction
[1:51:15 - 1:51:18] ▶
scenarios from other people
[1:51:19 - 1:51:21] ▶
Where somehow these creatures are able to you know, turn you off
[1:51:21 - 1:51:25] ▶
For that amount of time and then I've heard from other people that there's actually maybe even a time space kind of a phenomenon
[1:51:26 - 1:51:33] ▶
That's encountered with other craft where
[1:51:33 - 1:51:35] ▶
The radio is turned off and all the electrics in the car turn off
[1:51:36 - 1:51:39] ▶
And then they get you know they they have missing time
[1:51:39 - 1:51:43] ▶
But at the same time they feel like nothing happened
[1:51:44 - 1:51:47] ▶
You set something really interested in the program which I loved
[1:51:47 - 1:51:51] ▶
I mean, I just it really resonated with me that when you made eye contact
[1:51:51 - 1:51:55] ▶
Which is this thing this being critter person whatever
[1:51:55 - 1:51:59] ▶
That you almost had this snake bite
[1:52:00 - 1:52:02] ▶
Like what was that? What what did that?
[1:52:03 - 1:52:05] ▶
That was the very first part of the conversation because that was when I shut the door and I looked up
[1:52:05 - 1:52:10] ▶
You know, it's like and you got eyes with him right and you and I locked eyes and it was the strangest freaking set of eyes
[1:52:10 - 1:52:17] ▶
I'd ever seen it was like a crocodile was freaking looking at me
[1:52:17 - 1:52:20] ▶
In my my fear instinct just went spiked. I was like holy crap
[1:52:21 - 1:52:25] ▶
You know, I got bolt of adrenaline going through. Oh, yeah, I was fear
[1:52:26 - 1:52:30] ▶
Did you be scared? There was definite fear. I was like holy crap. This is this guy's not he's an alien. I was like
[1:52:31 - 1:52:37] ▶
So you look like you were looking into a crocodile's eyes
[1:52:41 - 1:52:44] ▶
Yeah, it was kind of the same thing you get if you stumble onto a rattlesnake
[1:52:44 - 1:52:47] ▶
That's what it felt like I mean you just scared to death. You're like, oh crap
[1:52:47 - 1:52:50] ▶
You know, that's what I felt but you didn't feel threatened in the sense that you'd be threatened your well-being was
[1:52:51 - 1:52:56] ▶
Was that state here was a sentient being?
[1:52:57 - 1:52:59] ▶
That I couldn't explain
[1:53:01 - 1:53:03] ▶
If you could imagine that kind of a scenario just like you know the first time you your scuba diving and you and you meet a whale for the first time
[1:53:03 - 1:53:10] ▶
You're like, yeah, you know, that kind of feeling but you know what the whale is yeah
[1:53:10 - 1:53:15] ▶
And eventually you calm down and you realize that the jail. Yeah, it's a whale and it's gentle and it doesn't bother you
[1:53:15 - 1:53:20] ▶
But you never figured out what this thing was no I did not what happened
[1:53:21 - 1:53:25] ▶
So you get in the car they kind of come to you're like did you just see that some guys are like know what happens next
[1:53:25 - 1:53:29] ▶
You guys just drive back to where well
[1:53:29 - 1:53:31] ▶
We had to be it like mountain by a certain time to start our equipment up and everything else
[1:53:31 - 1:53:36] ▶
So that was the foremost in our mind or everybody else's mind
[1:53:36 - 1:53:39] ▶
I was still reeling from the whole thing that I just experienced you driving in silence. I'm just like
[1:53:39 - 1:53:45] ▶
Holy crap what just happened, you know kind of a just shot in shock complete shock
[1:53:46 - 1:53:51] ▶
Then we get to the black mountain we crank up our gear
[1:53:53 - 1:53:55] ▶
Start working our job and we finish out the day and we go back to the hotel and
[1:53:57 - 1:54:01] ▶
Only the guy only the ranking guy was the one that I know remember some of it at least because I talked to him later on
[1:54:02 - 1:54:08] ▶
What where like how did that lunch time
[1:54:09 - 1:54:11] ▶
I had a very strange compunction. I don't know what the it was cold is heck out there
[1:54:12 - 1:54:16] ▶
But I wanted to go eat my lunch outside
[1:54:16 - 1:54:18] ▶
There was like a compelling
[1:54:19 - 1:54:21] ▶
Something that told me go when you got to the place
[1:54:21 - 1:54:24] ▶
Yeah, when we got to black mountain. Yeah
[1:54:24 - 1:54:26] ▶
So I ate lunch and I walked down and this is where my missing time comes in
[1:54:27 - 1:54:31] ▶
I walked down about you know
[1:54:32 - 1:54:34] ▶
150 feet down the road from the top of black mountain and I don't remember anything
[1:54:34 - 1:54:39] ▶
I don't know where my lunch is out there that's gonna look at you and say this guy's clearly full of doggy do-do
[1:54:45 - 1:54:49] ▶
well, if that's the case then
[1:54:50 - 1:54:52] ▶
I've passed a number of polygraphs
[1:54:53 - 1:54:55] ▶
I've been about this and yeah, and we've had to talk about all kinds of parts of my life. It's never been a problem
[1:54:55 - 1:55:02] ▶
They they never knew about this incident. I never did that so they never asked me a direct question that you know
[1:55:04 - 1:55:09] ▶
Did you ever meet an alien? No, they don't talk about that
[1:55:09 - 1:55:12] ▶
um, but you passed polygraph regarding the sensitive
[1:55:13 - 1:55:16] ▶
Well, I passed polygraphs for my you know just to say that I've got integrity that I'm an honest person
[1:55:16 - 1:55:21] ▶
Would you take a polygraph from this case? Yeah, I would
[1:55:22 - 1:55:24] ▶
I have no problem with it. Yeah, okay. I know what I saw and that's kind of it when you're moving names
[1:55:25 - 1:55:30] ▶
I knew what I saw yeah, um
[1:55:30 - 1:55:32] ▶
I didn't you didn't go home and like say to your wife. She's not gonna believe this shit. There's none of that
[1:55:32 - 1:55:37] ▶
You said all that everybody else had shunned me, you know
[1:55:37 - 1:55:40] ▶
It's shunned the whole thing. I thought well
[1:55:41 - 1:55:43] ▶
I'm just I'm the only guy wants to talk about this or they don't know what happened
[1:55:43 - 1:55:46] ▶
And the like I said the only guy that remembered any part of it was that ranking guy he was a driver
[1:55:47 - 1:55:51] ▶
He was the driver and you still have his name to this day, right?
[1:55:51 - 1:55:54] ▶
He's the guy that ghosted me, right? You reached out to him
[1:55:54 - 1:55:57] ▶
He responded. Hey, good to hear from you. How you doing? Yeah, you brought up the case and then
[1:55:57 - 1:56:01] ▶
Done yeah, I said remember that day back in 94 that UFO and then
[1:56:02 - 1:56:06] ▶
I was when is this like
[1:56:06 - 1:56:08] ▶
2022 okay, so this is before you testified to congress it's private right? Yeah, it's before because
[1:56:09 - 1:56:15] ▶
Some of the people on the vap test force had asked me to contact those people at the rental car
[1:56:16 - 1:56:20] ▶
Okay, so there's there's there's there's a couple now we got to get into the nitty gritty of like how you come out and
[1:56:20 - 1:56:26] ▶
Everything that goes on there first of all to go back for just one second
[1:56:27 - 1:56:31] ▶
In the course of your career even after this event would apply by the way
[1:56:32 - 1:56:36] ▶
Whether it be when you were stationed at desert storm doing things or in whatever zones you were had you seen had you been on or near the front lines of combat situations
[1:56:37 - 1:56:49] ▶
No, not during my normal job. Okay, were there things during your career though besides this event
[1:56:51 - 1:56:57] ▶
Which up for obvious reasons is gonna cause a lot of things to think about but were there things other things during your military career
[1:56:57 - 1:57:04] ▶
That you had some PTSD from definitely like what
[1:57:04 - 1:57:08] ▶
Um, just the things that I had to experience in the black program some of that stuff ended up being
[1:57:09 - 1:57:14] ▶
A really bad yeah dark time during my career
[1:57:15 - 1:57:18] ▶
So that happened um like the things you would hear for example on on the calls and stuff like that like you were talking about earlier
[1:57:19 - 1:57:26] ▶
Yeah, just rocks you're freaking world some of that um
[1:57:26 - 1:57:29] ▶
And also just some of the parts of the program that I found very shocking very
[1:57:30 - 1:57:34] ▶
Dehumanizing can you comment on that um I tried
[1:57:35 - 1:57:39] ▶
There's I'm convinced there's just things that I can't talk about because the public's not ready
[1:57:40 - 1:57:44] ▶
I've told this to other people that I've been interviewed with
[1:57:46 - 1:57:48] ▶
I've been interviewing with that I have tried to discuss certain things and I could just tell people are just not ready for the full monty on what's actually going on in that program
[1:57:49 - 1:57:57] ▶
Okay, what and I started to ask this earlier, but now that we have more context
[1:57:57 - 1:58:03] ▶
I think it'd be better to dig into it now
[1:58:03 - 1:58:05] ▶
Read into this program you had to sign things right? Yeah, you got to sign yeah when I was in that
[1:58:07 - 1:58:12] ▶
That video briefing I told you about when I got there for the first time. Yeah, you have to sign people work
[1:58:12 - 1:58:16] ▶
Which you know the standard like I will not talk about anything that happened in here whatever yada yada exactly
[1:58:16 - 1:58:21] ▶
So when you come out in 2020 or in 2022 why were you not arrested?
[1:58:22 - 1:58:27] ▶
Because I was coming in as a whistleblower
[1:58:27 - 1:58:30] ▶
And there's certain protections for that
[1:58:31 - 1:58:33] ▶
Under what statute like oh there well the NDAA the NDAA
[1:58:33 - 1:58:39] ▶
This was a fence authorization
[1:58:42 - 1:58:44] ▶
Act, yeah, whistleblower protection that was written by Gillibrand Rubio Schumer rounds
[1:58:44 - 1:58:49] ▶
It basically protecting whistleblowers, but he wasn't releasing his stuff publicly. He was doing it in a skip in a in a
[1:58:51 - 1:58:56] ▶
With people with with with clearances right and it was with con with Congress
[1:58:56 - 1:59:00] ▶
But sent it in the house sides both of them had a skiff that they brought me in
[1:59:01 - 1:59:04] ▶
So I fell under the NDAA, but besides that
[1:59:05 - 1:59:08] ▶
There's like a few ways you can actually come forward with information and be like you can do it like a concerned citizen
[1:59:09 - 1:59:15] ▶
Which is with the way I the method I went through
[1:59:15 - 1:59:17] ▶
Uh, and like David Grush was going in under a more official investigation of investigative
[1:59:18 - 1:59:23] ▶
version of coming forward as a whistleblower because he had already filed an ICIG complaint
[1:59:24 - 1:59:29] ▶
And then he was pushed through the Congress
[1:59:30 - 1:59:32] ▶
So he went in after I did Congress put grush in charge of investigating what the intelligence is new
[1:59:32 - 1:59:38] ▶
Or yeah, but then they screwed with his clearance and he had to say hey, they're screwing all these grutes
[1:59:38 - 1:59:43] ▶
So he pulled back the curtain found something and they started to have them with him right and that's when he filed his complaint
[1:59:43 - 1:59:47] ▶
This is back you have your event back in the earlier 90s
[1:59:49 - 1:59:52] ▶
As time goes by after that you continue to build a family have kids you continue your career
[1:59:54 - 1:59:59] ▶
We already laid that out earlier you were in the Air Force till 2007 you were then a private contractor from 2007
[1:59:59 - 2:00:05] ▶
Onward I believe until earlier this year correct
[2:00:05 - 2:00:07] ▶
Okay, and so you and you listed off some of the companies you work for and you're you're read into the government because you're
[2:00:08 - 2:00:13] ▶
You're contracting for the US government. So you're working in Intel effectively
[2:00:13 - 2:00:16] ▶
So this is many many years doing that but like
[2:00:16 - 2:00:19] ▶
Over time whether it's right away or on set whatever
[2:00:20 - 2:00:23] ▶
Did this chain like did this start to have a negative effect on you as a person as far as like your
[2:00:24 - 2:00:30] ▶
Mental mind state knowing that like holy shit. I saw something that probably no one else was not eating at me at all
[2:00:31 - 2:00:38] ▶
I treated it just like I did with my bad memories of my dad
[2:00:38 - 2:00:41] ▶
I just filed it away like I normally would when there was something that I just could not handle
[2:00:41 - 2:00:46] ▶
And I just forgot about it as much as I could that what brought it back to the surface was when I was on the UAP test
[2:00:47 - 2:00:52] ▶
Where's forum and they posted the video of the UFO on the range that fly when it's flying past black mountain
[2:00:52 - 2:01:00] ▶
And I'm like I know about that
[2:01:00 - 2:01:02] ▶
Wait, so all right, hold on. I want to make sure I understand this because this is important
[2:01:03 - 2:01:06] ▶
You said that that brought it back to the surface so you compartmentalized it and almost mentally assumed it didn't happen
[2:01:07 - 2:01:12] ▶
Or am I misunderstanding that it's not that it didn't happen
[2:01:13 - 2:01:15] ▶
It's just I didn't want to think about it and I just assumed that it was best left to you put it in a dark place deep inside you
[2:01:15 - 2:01:22] ▶
And then I just went on with life and then like a sleeper cell in a way it wakes up when you see that video
[2:01:22 - 2:01:27] ▶
Yeah, I start it floods back all of a sudden
[2:01:28 - 2:01:31] ▶
I'm like yeah, I know about this incident and I actually sat on responding
[2:01:31 - 2:01:35] ▶
To the report on that particular you know UFO incident back in 1994 on the Nils test range
[2:01:36 - 2:01:43] ▶
They posted the whole thing and I thought about it for probably a good month before I responded
[2:01:43 - 2:01:48] ▶
Okay, and then that's when I typed in there on the top secret network and on the UAP forum
[2:01:49 - 2:01:53] ▶
And I just said I've got more to tell you about this and to be clear
[2:01:54 - 2:01:57] ▶
You were explaining this to me earlier before we got on camera just so that we can have this all cleared up for everyone
[2:01:57 - 2:02:02] ▶
Correct me wherever I'm wrong in this
[2:02:03 - 2:02:05] ▶
But there was something called as you just alluded to a UAP test force that involved Congress so they're in charge of it
[2:02:05 - 2:02:10] ▶
And then within that there's like a UAP forum which is the term and this is
[2:02:11 - 2:02:16] ▶
You're able to access it through a portal if you are within any of the intelligence community correct
[2:02:17 - 2:02:22] ▶
And you can then like go in and watch what's going on or whatever
[2:02:22 - 2:02:26] ▶
And if you have something to say that's relevant you can share it correct
[2:02:27 - 2:02:30] ▶
So in that scenario you're not paid or given finding someone sent for any of that
[2:02:30 - 2:02:34] ▶
So you're not employed by anyone you are you are strictly just
[2:02:34 - 2:02:38] ▶
Participating in what you're helping the the UAP test force through that forum to help them analyze because there's only a very few people working
[2:02:39 - 2:02:46] ▶
for the task force itself
[2:02:46 - 2:02:48] ▶
Explain SIPPOR because it's a it's a secret network SIPPOR SIPPOR. Yeah, what's it's an acronym?
[2:02:49 - 2:02:55] ▶
Yeah, that's the secret level and then can you look it up SIPPOR or SIPR
[2:02:55 - 2:03:01] ▶
I don't know, but it's a network that you have to have clearances to access you can't do it from the outside
[2:03:02 - 2:03:08] ▶
It's something SIPPOR
[2:03:08 - 2:03:09] ▶
SIPPOR net that's okay. We got a Wikipedia. So the secret internet protocol router network
[2:03:10 - 2:03:15] ▶
SIPPOR net is a system of interconnected super computer networks used by the US Department of Defense and the US Department of State to transmit
[2:03:15 - 2:03:23] ▶
classified information up to and including information classified secret by packet switching over the completely secure environment
[2:03:23 - 2:03:30] ▶
So it also provides services such as hypertext document access and electronic mail as such SIPPOR net is the DOD's classified version of the civilian internet
[2:03:30 - 2:03:39] ▶
SIPPOR net is the secret component of the defense information systems network other components handle communications with other security
[2:03:39 - 2:03:45] ▶
Such as the nipper net which is used for non secure communications and the joint worldwide intelligence
[2:03:46 - 2:03:53] ▶
communication system which is used for top secret
[2:03:54 - 2:03:57] ▶
Oh, yeah, it's the one where the form was there is a form also on SIPPOR net
[2:03:58 - 2:04:03] ▶
And there's also some unclassified chat rooms on the nipper net. Okay, that handled some of the UAP discussions
[2:04:04 - 2:04:11] ▶
If you wanted to nip something in the bud you used a nipper net
[2:04:11 - 2:04:14] ▶
Okay, so what years are we talking? No, I had to do a females. Oh, different
[2:04:16 - 2:04:21] ▶
What years are we talking when you first get involved with let's just keep it high level with the UAP forum like when did that first happen
[2:04:23 - 2:04:30] ▶
My first encounter with that's probably 2022. I think that's when I discovered the UAP
[2:04:33 - 2:04:37] ▶
Form was there and I was like oh, you know, I just poked around at it and looked at it and saw that there was
[2:04:39 - 2:04:45] ▶
And then this comes back. Yeah, okay
[2:04:45 - 2:04:47] ▶
So how did the process go down with you first getting into the skiff and
[2:04:48 - 2:04:54] ▶
You know testifying to people privately like what
[2:04:55 - 2:04:57] ▶
Well, how did that happen?
[2:04:58 - 2:05:00] ▶
Once I posted my response to the UFO incident on the Nellis test range of 1994
[2:05:00 - 2:05:06] ▶
I responded back that there's part to this story
[2:05:06 - 2:05:08] ▶
I had an encounter the following week and then I put in there and then the whole group
[2:05:09 - 2:05:13] ▶
Got to ask me questions. I responded
[2:05:13 - 2:05:16] ▶
So very much like the same questions you guys are asking me, but I did it on the on the J-Wix or the top secret forum
[2:05:17 - 2:05:22] ▶
However, nothing was classified because this was just my trip up range
[2:05:24 - 2:05:27] ▶
You know for the day. I just was driving to work for Krenna
[2:05:28 - 2:05:30] ▶
Had nothing to do with the program or anything else. It was just you know a strange day in my life
[2:05:31 - 2:05:35] ▶
That all took place and then I get a call from David Grush and another gentleman
[2:05:38 - 2:05:43] ▶
That I shouldn't mention his name
[2:05:44 - 2:05:46] ▶
Contacted me the first thing I got was an email saying hey, we need to do a high-level
[2:05:49 - 2:05:54] ▶
Talk or questions with you
[2:05:56 - 2:05:58] ▶
We just saw your posting blah blah blah and I'm so and so I worked for the UAP test force
[2:05:58 - 2:06:02] ▶
So I get out they I give them my contact they call me up later that afternoon
[2:06:03 - 2:06:07] ▶
And we start talking about the whole thing and that's where things started rolling and then
[2:06:08 - 2:06:12] ▶
Come October. I'm gonna get a call from the congressional committees
[2:06:13 - 2:06:16] ▶
And they're saying can you come in and talk to us in November or December timeframe? I'm like sure I could do that
[2:06:17 - 2:06:22] ▶
So I went and testified and then David Grush came through he testified you mean you gave statements in a secure place
[2:06:23 - 2:06:31] ▶
What didn't you mean by testified?
[2:06:31 - 2:06:33] ▶
To Congress so I did not like in a hearing or something was like
[2:06:33 - 2:06:37] ▶
Yes, that's what you wouldn't give information in a skiff. I did a close issue. Okay. Sorry. Yeah, I'm just curious
[2:06:38 - 2:06:44] ▶
With that obviously you can't reveal who's in there, but approximately how many people are you able to say that?
[2:06:44 - 2:06:48] ▶
Yeah, it was about 10 people per on the Senate side and a little a few more on the house side
[2:06:49 - 2:06:53] ▶
Because I had to start off on the Senate that morning we did about a three four-hour interview
[2:06:53 - 2:06:58] ▶
Where we get the classified date details needed to verify what you were saying
[2:06:59 - 2:07:02] ▶
Everything and then they took me over to you know the underground train. They took me over to the house side
[2:07:03 - 2:07:08] ▶
Did you give names? Yep?
[2:07:08 - 2:07:09] ▶
locations locations what was their reaction?
[2:07:09 - 2:07:12] ▶
Was there anyone there really pushing back on you like come on or oh?
[2:07:15 - 2:07:19] ▶
Yeah, there's a few of them that had some really good questions. You're just like well
[2:07:19 - 2:07:22] ▶
You said tall whites and grace couldn't that be a code name? And I'm like
[2:07:22 - 2:07:27] ▶
No, that's not the context of it. All right. Can you explain that context there?
[2:07:27 - 2:07:31] ▶
I know you've talked about this before but we haven't talked about this today
[2:07:31 - 2:07:34] ▶
So where did the tall whites and grace come into your they're in a lab when I was monitoring and they asked me about that particular
[2:07:34 - 2:07:42] ▶
event when they're in this lab and the context of the conversation was that
[2:07:42 - 2:07:47] ▶
Humans were not allowed to come into this lab until after the tall whites and grace were left is this after your encounter?
[2:07:48 - 2:07:53] ▶
This is before oh, it's before yeah, it's while I'm in the program so in the program you have a
[2:07:54 - 2:08:00] ▶
If you're monitoring this a previous encounter. Yes
[2:08:01 - 2:08:03] ▶
It's a previous encounter. Yep. Is this stuff you heard or stuff you saw?
[2:08:05 - 2:08:08] ▶
I heard it. Oh, you heard it. I heard it. I was monitoring and recording that conversation
[2:08:09 - 2:08:14] ▶
And like I said you got to understand that this was not a deception plan because it's insane for them to spend the thousands of dollars to have my team in the OS
[2:08:14 - 2:08:22] ▶
I come out for that two weeks and waste our time
[2:08:22 - 2:08:25] ▶
Because we were there for a very specific reason and asked to keep their security on their
[2:08:26 - 2:08:29] ▶
All right, let me let me play devil's advocate on that real quick
[2:08:30 - 2:08:32] ▶
If it's just hearing it and not seeing it, which is not your fault. You're just hearing it right? Yep
[2:08:33 - 2:08:38] ▶
By the way, were they speaking English? Yeah, yeah, okay, so it's not like the Norwegian type situation
[2:08:38 - 2:08:43] ▶
I am just thinking about how compartments of the government could work with psychological
[2:08:45 - 2:08:51] ▶
Testing and things like that you have people like you and your co-workers who have been deemed through all kinds of testing to be
[2:08:51 - 2:08:59] ▶
highly skilled highly ranked
[2:09:00 - 2:09:03] ▶
Doing serious work counter-entell the whole bit so you check all these boxes
[2:09:03 - 2:09:07] ▶
Therefore, meaning you're like the hardest guys to dop with stuff in a sense
[2:09:08 - 2:09:12] ▶
So they may and it's just a devil's advocate situation if I'm looking at something that's not like what you talked about earlier
[2:09:12 - 2:09:18] ▶
Where you are actually seeing something and it's just something you're hearing and these terms like Nordics and grays and whites or whatever are thrown around
[2:09:18 - 2:09:26] ▶
Could you see a scenario where something like that is a part of you are the rat in the test tube unknowingly that they're that they're trying to figure out like well
[2:09:26 - 2:09:35] ▶
Let's see how he reacts to this
[2:09:35 - 2:09:37] ▶
I would say there's a very small chance that that could happen okay because to me it doesn't make logic sense that
[2:09:40 - 2:09:47] ▶
Put me through all the training went and spent all the money on my polygraph and everything else in the background check
[2:09:47 - 2:09:53] ▶
Which ultimately costs like hundreds of thousands of dollars?
[2:09:53 - 2:09:56] ▶
Mm-hmm and then just to do dop with me
[2:09:56 - 2:09:59] ▶
Doesn't make sense 100 in in all fairness though hundreds of thousands of dollars to the government
[2:10:01 - 2:10:05] ▶
Can you delete that? Then we're gonna fuck about that. This is saying people waste two trillion without asking yeah
[2:10:05 - 2:10:10] ▶
Without without bad night. So that part I wouldn't care about as much. But I see what you're saying it would it would be a lot
[2:10:10 - 2:10:15] ▶
There'd be a lot of a lot of
[2:10:16 - 2:10:18] ▶
Lines they cross to do that
[2:10:18 - 2:10:20] ▶
Correct because usually if they're gonna do a deception like that
[2:10:20 - 2:10:23] ▶
It's got to go all the way up to the DoD level
[2:10:23 - 2:10:25] ▶
You know to get approval to do that kind of a thing. Yep
[2:10:25 - 2:10:29] ▶
And then they have to assign assets that have to fake the phone calls
[2:10:29 - 2:10:34] ▶
fake the mission fake the lab fake everything and be able to make it sound good enough for me to to bite on it
[2:10:35 - 2:10:41] ▶
So you didn't but and to be clear you didn't see the lab. It's all just audio. We're talking about yes
[2:10:41 - 2:10:47] ▶
Being talked about okay. Yeah, I fair enough. So you share this in in the skiff with the tenant congressional representatives right all right
[2:10:47 - 2:10:54] ▶
And people looking at it like you're Craig gray, but some people are also some people are also shocked you said too, right?
[2:10:55 - 2:11:01] ▶
Yeah, meaning like they're not saying like all right
[2:11:02 - 2:11:04] ▶
This is there's some people who are thinking maybe this is in all bullshit. Maybe there's something here
[2:11:04 - 2:11:08] ▶
Yes, because I told them that was not the context because if it was a code name
[2:11:08 - 2:11:14] ▶
It would have used been used differently
[2:11:14 - 2:11:16] ▶
Centastically in the conversation the way they were talking about it was that this was a group of entities
[2:11:17 - 2:11:22] ▶
They were called grays another group of entities that's called tall whites and another group of entities that's called humans
[2:11:22 - 2:11:29] ▶
and I have listened to many conversations about when they use code words they don't fit that
[2:11:29 - 2:11:37] ▶
The way we come up with code words they are not military
[2:11:38 - 2:11:42] ▶
Code words by any means they don't match any of the ways that we come up with code words and
[2:11:42 - 2:11:47] ▶
That just made zero sense to me and I just told the the guy in the committee know that's not what I heard and what was the just for the full context of it
[2:11:49 - 2:11:57] ▶
What did you learn about the I don't know working relationship here between I guess like other galactics
[2:11:59 - 2:12:06] ▶
I did here ash tar command honestly I did hear that and I heard what ash tar command
[2:12:07 - 2:12:13] ▶
I had actually on a piece sheet of paper and I looked to the other other on us
[2:12:13 - 2:12:18] ▶
That's another one that they came over and they listened to the the conversation themselves because I said do we have like a
[2:12:18 - 2:12:23] ▶
Command or headquarters in India
[2:12:24 - 2:12:26] ▶
What is this you know what is ash tar command? You ever heard of this before and on
[2:12:26 - 2:12:31] ▶
Ash tar command yeah, I still don't really know what that means but you don't know it now
[2:12:33 - 2:12:37] ▶
Well, I've heard from the UFO community that they believe that the ash tar command is actually a command that's out there in the
[2:12:37 - 2:12:45] ▶
We'll get in speculations
[2:12:48 - 2:12:50] ▶
We're here right so anyway, let's go
[2:12:55 - 2:12:58] ▶
But anyway, so I did hear that one and that was another one. I was like I don't know what ash tar command is
[2:12:59 - 2:13:03] ▶
Neither did any of the other analysts so that was another mystery to us
[2:13:04 - 2:13:08] ▶
But yeah, those were the kind of conversations that raised my eyebrows. Yeah, okay
[2:13:10 - 2:13:14] ▶
So you come forward in 2022
[2:13:14 - 2:13:16] ▶
James when you had said earlier you mentioned some of the conversations that happened where Jason came up and it was some
[2:13:17 - 2:13:23] ▶
Sources you trust within government who were telling you about his experiences. I guess they learned through this process
[2:13:24 - 2:13:29] ▶
Went when was that again for the first time 2023 when in yes 23 February. Okay, probably February
[2:13:29 - 2:13:36] ▶
So when you're in DC. Yeah, that's when you're indeed. Yeah, all right. So when do you two first connect?
[2:13:36 - 2:13:41] ▶
Well, y'all that him explain. He knows what happened behind the scenes. All I know is they ended up having dinner with him
[2:13:42 - 2:13:46] ▶
Yeah, so back here, so
[2:13:46 - 2:13:48] ▶
Get an email and I you know what I'm gonna keep this individual who introduced us out
[2:13:50 - 2:13:54] ▶
Keep keep this individual's name out just because I don't know if it's so I get an introductory email
[2:13:54 - 2:14:00] ▶
For Jay Stratton. So Jay Stratton James Fox
[2:14:04 - 2:14:07] ▶
Don't know how much you know what one of you has more time in the field James Fox has been all over the world
[2:14:08 - 2:14:15] ▶
You know he makes documentaries he stratons been on the inside investigating you would be task force
[2:14:15 - 2:14:19] ▶
Yeah, yeah, I just want to make you guys's connection
[2:14:19 - 2:14:22] ▶
I was like wow I've heard about Jay Stratton. That's great. I'd love to and so I responded just with one
[2:14:22 - 2:14:27] ▶
No, I responded to both of them. Hey really nice to meet you. I've heard a lot about you
[2:14:28 - 2:14:33] ▶
I'm in DC for a month filming if you'd like to get together for dinner drink whatever
[2:14:33 - 2:14:38] ▶
And then he responds with just me not including this other individual who made the introduction
[2:14:39 - 2:14:44] ▶
And he says actually I'm not Jay Stratton of Jay Sands. Mm-hmm, but I was part of the
[2:14:44 - 2:14:50] ▶
The program. Yeah, but you use the word legacy legacy program. Yeah, you're all I was part of the legacy. I was like oh
[2:14:53 - 2:14:58] ▶
Okay, well, this is kind of funny
[2:14:59 - 2:15:01] ▶
So we ended up I think I don't know what it was a night two nights three nights later going out to dinner with this other individual and some other people
[2:15:01 - 2:15:09] ▶
In the UAP field very credible individuals that again, I didn't get their permission to mention their names
[2:15:11 - 2:15:18] ▶
But you would have heard of them. Okay, we all go to dinner together
[2:15:18 - 2:15:21] ▶
Check where Lou was a lesson
[2:15:22 - 2:15:24] ▶
And we all go to dinner together and uh and that's when he drops this story at at noisest range and I was like
[2:15:24 - 2:15:30] ▶
You gotta be changes like oh
[2:15:32 - 2:15:34] ▶
I was like oh boy, this is wow
[2:15:34 - 2:15:37] ▶
You want to be with them without them?
[2:15:37 - 2:15:39] ▶
So essentially, you know, I'm just trying to process as to whether I believed him or it or whatever
[2:15:42 - 2:15:49] ▶
And I have to say I've got James. I've learned from so many decades in this field
[2:15:49 - 2:15:53] ▶
That don't have that knee jerk response that you've had with Virginia, Rua and all these other cases are Coro
[2:15:54 - 2:15:59] ▶
That's impossible. There's no way
[2:16:00 - 2:16:02] ▶
I said okay, well, I'm just a spend judgment. I'm gonna listen to this this this and I'll maybe dig into it a little further
[2:16:05 - 2:16:10] ▶
Leave it that it's same with the Hall of Men. I believe that all men happened
[2:16:11 - 2:16:15] ▶
Never thought I heard myself say that in 1964 alleged landing all men Air Force best
[2:16:16 - 2:16:20] ▶
We're contact was made and there's a whole long story. I don't really want to get it. We covered that in episode 138. Thank you
[2:16:21 - 2:16:27] ▶
so anyway, so we get
[2:16:28 - 2:16:31] ▶
Get to know each other a bit. I mean the other people that were involved
[2:16:31 - 2:16:33] ▶
The task force and having dinners and drinks and did you get to see whiskey James? Yeah
[2:16:35 - 2:16:41] ▶
Not in that's that's a demon
[2:16:41 - 2:16:43] ▶
He was he was getting he was getting a little bit harassed you were concerned you were working out at the Pentagon
[2:16:44 - 2:16:51] ▶
I think at the time and
[2:16:51 - 2:16:53] ▶
You said your car would have been like left. I was working to say sorry. Yeah, your car left opening you were getting a little paranoid
[2:16:53 - 2:17:00] ▶
You're getting you were just concerned you were on edge. Yeah, and I say look
[2:17:01 - 2:17:04] ▶
You know, I got a camera crew here. I'm in DC if you want so totally up to you. I'm not forcing you do anything
[2:17:05 - 2:17:11] ▶
if you want to get some testimony on camera
[2:17:11 - 2:17:13] ▶
Just as a security issue and insurance policy if you feel like you're
[2:17:14 - 2:17:18] ▶
Anyway threatened or untusk concerned put that out as an insurance policy and at least it's documented on camera
[2:17:20 - 2:17:27] ▶
He said yeah, I think I'll do that. I think you spent a couple days thinking about it. You said screw it. Yeah, let's do it
[2:17:27 - 2:17:32] ▶
Filmed and I filmed primarily from the back, but I did put one camera on his face just in case and
[2:17:35 - 2:17:40] ▶
I always post like on social media updates on my
[2:17:44 - 2:17:46] ▶
film process updates and I posted a production still and it had a clipboard in it
[2:17:47 - 2:17:54] ▶
He was not even in the photograph or maybe his back of his shoulder was I think yeah
[2:17:55 - 2:17:58] ▶
Said Jason. There's a clip clipboard. Jason's so I added them right and people have zoomed in and then that's when
[2:17:58 - 2:18:05] ▶
Hey, there's a Jason
[2:18:05 - 2:18:06] ▶
Attacking him and then he sat quietly on the sidelines and then eventually engaged and that's how it all went out
[2:18:07 - 2:18:13] ▶
I had to talk to my leadership right after that because people were asking questions
[2:18:13 - 2:18:16] ▶
And so I had so many people contacted me. What are you doing? I was like what are you talking about?
[2:18:16 - 2:18:20] ▶
Okay, I was like oh my god, I'm so sorry. So anyway shit storm
[2:18:20 - 2:18:24] ▶
Yeah, I felt terrible because he was he hadn't gone through the adoption process
[2:18:25 - 2:18:29] ▶
He was a whistleblower behind the scenes. He had no intention of making his name public
[2:18:29 - 2:18:33] ▶
And so that was me okay
[2:18:33 - 2:18:35] ▶
So and and I want to where we go from here
[2:18:35 - 2:18:38] ▶
I want to tread respectfully and carefully just to run through where your mind was at stuff
[2:18:38 - 2:18:43] ▶
I don't want any of it to be accusatory or whatever
[2:18:43 - 2:18:45] ▶
I just want to be able to clear things up so you have a chance to put your testimony in front of people
[2:18:45 - 2:18:49] ▶
But after this happens the program obviously comes out December 24th. This is long before that
[2:18:49 - 2:18:54] ▶
No, the program came out in
[2:18:55 - 2:18:57] ▶
December 24th, okay, so sorry
[2:18:58 - 2:19:00] ▶
Yeah, this is why you're right. So I thought you said September right right right. Yep. So long before that
[2:19:00 - 2:19:04] ▶
You decide after this is after James tweeted and deleted that picture so your name's been outed or whatever but you decide
[2:19:06 - 2:19:13] ▶
To hop on a Twitter spaces and tell
[2:19:13 - 2:19:16] ▶
Part of your story for the first time. What was the thought process on
[2:19:17 - 2:19:21] ▶
Because I chuckled a little bit like when I saw oh this guy came out on a Twitter spaces like oh the fucking places
[2:19:22 - 2:19:27] ▶
What was your thought process on doing it there? Well
[2:19:27 - 2:19:29] ▶
I had been listening to what people were saying mainly because I was interested to see how far my name was gonna be used
[2:19:31 - 2:19:37] ▶
And I was still going through my pre-publication
[2:19:38 - 2:19:40] ▶
process which was my last step in legal ability to talk publicly
[2:19:41 - 2:19:45] ▶
Because I knew inevitably it was you know people are gonna figure out who I am eventually
[2:19:47 - 2:19:51] ▶
Those kind of played a big factor in my mindset
[2:19:53 - 2:19:55] ▶
And then I just I think the week prior to my coming out in
[2:19:56 - 2:20:00] ▶
April of that year that
[2:20:01 - 2:20:04] ▶
I decided I was like okay, I've got all my ducks in the line
[2:20:05 - 2:20:08] ▶
I'm sick and tired of people making up stuff about their imaginary this imaginary that about what was
[2:20:09 - 2:20:14] ▶
And making up stuff that I'm like that's totally not right that's totally not right
[2:20:16 - 2:20:20] ▶
I'm sorry to cut you off. What do you mean by all your ducks in the line?
[2:20:20 - 2:20:23] ▶
Just all my legal stuff I had been I talked to Congress and got my NDA
[2:20:23 - 2:20:27] ▶
whistleblower status
[2:20:27 - 2:20:29] ▶
Then I went to Arrow and I talked to them
[2:20:29 - 2:20:31] ▶
Which I also was asked to do
[2:20:32 - 2:20:34] ▶
Then I was told I had to also go to the ICIG and file the formal complaint
[2:20:34 - 2:20:38] ▶
And then my last step was to get my
[2:20:39 - 2:20:41] ▶
Pre-publication completed intelligence community inspector general ICIG. Okay. Yeah, uh, well the head of that was
[2:20:41 - 2:20:48] ▶
Thomas Monheim. I believe yeah got it
[2:20:48 - 2:20:50] ▶
So this essentially though in that initial Twitter spaces in April 2024
[2:20:50 - 2:20:55] ▶
You told the story at least in in a lot of the detail of everything we've covered so far today
[2:20:58 - 2:21:03] ▶
That's fair to say right
[2:21:03 - 2:21:05] ▶
Maybe there's a couple things we got to today that they're one and they're put for the most part like it's pretty much everything
[2:21:05 - 2:21:09] ▶
Ask me all sorts of stuff. Yeah, I can't remember all of them. She's I didn't expect to be in I thought I was just gonna come in for a half hour and leave
[2:21:09 - 2:21:16] ▶
It was like six hours or something I didn't even realize it, but I eventually was like meaning I'm freaking tired and I'm hungry
[2:21:19 - 2:21:24] ▶
And then I can say this now because you talked about this publicly actually when you recorded with Joe
[2:21:26 - 2:21:30] ▶
But you had told me this back before you and Joe Rogan talked I guess like sometime over the summer and
[2:21:31 - 2:21:38] ▶
And connected Jason with Joe to talk with him
[2:21:38 - 2:21:41] ▶
Right of yes, yes, so you spoke with him and told did you did you basically give Joe
[2:21:42 - 2:21:47] ▶
Does aim testimony you gave on the Twitter spaces? No, no, it was a very summarized version
[2:21:48 - 2:21:52] ▶
So even less Joe wanted to get in touch with grush
[2:21:52 - 2:21:55] ▶
Because grush is just testified and open your nose grush and he knows grush
[2:21:56 - 2:21:59] ▶
And so I said I he said can you get me the grush and say yeah, I got a guy
[2:21:59 - 2:22:02] ▶
So I put I said is it okay if I get to do it and I connected the two
[2:22:02 - 2:22:06] ▶
Boom they took right so I'm sorry. I had the time. So this is way before right
[2:22:06 - 2:22:10] ▶
So you guys connect you at least give him like a summarized version of what was going on? Yeah, because he's like who are you?
[2:22:10 - 2:22:14] ▶
How do you know grush and you know all this stuff?
[2:22:15 - 2:22:17] ▶
So I just had to tell him a little bit about my background and then we started talking he's like holy shit
[2:22:17 - 2:22:21] ▶
Yeah, all right, he called me when I had the drone in the air
[2:22:24 - 2:22:26] ▶
I was flying in England and I was all my way to meet Gary
[2:22:27 - 2:22:30] ▶
McMillan yeah, and I was getting some b-roll because I saw James stay here. Oh, so sorry
[2:22:31 - 2:22:36] ▶
Yeah, I was getting some b-roll because what I'm traveling if I see a pretty shot
[2:22:36 - 2:22:41] ▶
I usually have my drone with me and I had a drone
[2:22:41 - 2:22:44] ▶
That didn't have a built-in camera so I had to put my phone and in place for
[2:22:45 - 2:22:50] ▶
For the camera. I'm sorry not the camera the the screen so I could see what the drone is filming
[2:22:50 - 2:22:55] ▶
And since then I've gotten one with this built-in screen because it's so much quicker so much easier
[2:22:56 - 2:23:00] ▶
But I'm sitting there flying the drone up by a big big windmill and I've got the drone right up where the windmill
[2:23:00 - 2:23:05] ▶
Blades are spinning because I want to get this really dramatic shot
[2:23:05 - 2:23:08] ▶
And I'm my phone's ringing. I look at its Joe Rogan call me
[2:23:08 - 2:23:11] ▶
Like oh my god, I gotta get this
[2:23:12 - 2:23:14] ▶
So I answered the phone while my girl is the air
[2:23:16 - 2:23:19] ▶
I swear to god and it's after I get a rogue and he just got the phone with say I said what the fuck
[2:23:19 - 2:23:25] ▶
He's crazy. I was like I know it's pretty wild. You know me while seeing these blades going just missing my drone
[2:23:27 - 2:23:33] ▶
I'm like, you know it was it was really funny, you know I actually told him that but yeah
[2:23:34 - 2:23:39] ▶
It's really happened. That's the way I went down right
[2:23:39 - 2:23:41] ▶
Okay, and that's and that's and that's long before at that point that's long before the twitter spaces because that's when he wanted to get
[2:23:41 - 2:23:47] ▶
Yeah, that was a long because he was he was fully wanted to talk to grush. Okay. Yeah now
[2:23:47 - 2:23:52] ▶
Now here's what I want to get at because I think this is important to give you the opportunity to go through like where your head's at and why
[2:23:52 - 2:23:58] ▶
You're claiming some of the things you are in whatever and we'll let people decide on that
[2:23:58 - 2:24:01] ▶
But when you did this twitter space is in April there were there was actually a guy
[2:24:02 - 2:24:06] ▶
Vetted I believe shout out vetted. Yeah, as I'd see I'd seen I'd seen a video on this
[2:24:08 - 2:24:13] ▶
I think a couple weeks ago who apparently at the time had heard through the grapevine of a couple other people
[2:24:13 - 2:24:19] ▶
That you had a story
[2:24:21 - 2:24:23] ▶
Of how of being ordered to assassinate an alien now. This was like at the time shot down or whatever and then fast forward from April
[2:24:23 - 2:24:32] ▶
24 when that was first like floated by him and he caught backlash for that now fast forward to December
[2:24:33 - 2:24:39] ▶
24 the program comes out on the 16th and I believe like a day later
[2:24:39 - 2:24:43] ▶
I forget who it was with I'm sorry
[2:24:43 - 2:24:45] ▶
I'll put the link in description, but you do like a 22-minute interview. I think it was on YouTube
[2:24:45 - 2:24:51] ▶
Who was that with do you remember?
[2:24:51 - 2:24:53] ▶
I think that would dig me for now
[2:24:55 - 2:24:57] ▶
Alessie can you look this up real quick Jason sans interview
[2:24:57 - 2:25:01] ▶
assassination and look for the one that's 22 minutes. I want to give it a go. I was looking at that. I'll respond a little bit
[2:25:03 - 2:25:08] ▶
Had put out the video, but he said something like I killed a blue alien. Yes, and I was like
[2:25:12 - 2:25:17] ▶
Shit, that is not what I said
[2:25:17 - 2:25:19] ▶
Because he was confusing two different things because who would you have said this to or or whatever
[2:25:19 - 2:25:23] ▶
He was misinterpreting
[2:25:24 - 2:25:25] ▶
I don't know who he talked to behind the scenes, but I did mention it to only one other or two other people
[2:25:25 - 2:25:31] ▶
Okay, that there was a some some stuff that I had some work that I had to do that I don't like talking about because it brings PTSD back
[2:25:31 - 2:25:38] ▶
But um the other thing was that this blue alien. I was like
[2:25:39 - 2:25:42] ▶
No, I didn't kill a blue alien
[2:25:44 - 2:25:46] ▶
So I immediately called vetted and we settled it up and I said look, that's not right and um, I said can you take it down?
[2:25:46 - 2:25:53] ▶
You know because it's not correct and then he he didn't take it down
[2:25:53 - 2:25:56] ▶
But he corrected it was right. Yeah, but that's because I contacted him
[2:25:56 - 2:25:59] ▶
And we got to know each other. He's a really great guy and he's he's also somebody I consider a friend through all this
[2:25:59 - 2:26:05] ▶
Yeah, he doesn't agree with all my stuff and I don't care about that. It's not his life
[2:26:05 - 2:26:09] ▶
Yeah, and this is the video right here post disclosure world. That's who it was who you did this with
[2:26:09 - 2:26:14] ▶
Yeah, so this is this is what I want to get at because you don't say any of this back in April
[2:26:14 - 2:26:18] ▶
And when you talked with James and gave the testimony on the documentary
[2:26:19 - 2:26:23] ▶
You didn't mention any of this you didn't mention lost time unless that was on the cutting floor James
[2:26:23 - 2:26:28] ▶
You can fill that in yeah, I don't remember about the last time, but I definitely remember I called Jason
[2:26:28 - 2:26:32] ▶
I was like dude you are killing me right?
[2:26:32 - 2:26:34] ▶
I wouldn't be talking about all right
[2:26:34 - 2:26:35] ▶
You want to kill the credibility of all the testimony
[2:26:35 - 2:26:38] ▶
I'm already riding the line with you this encounter. Uh, you know, so all right
[2:26:38 - 2:26:42] ▶
So I was having a big issue. Yes, and and and and yeah
[2:26:42 - 2:26:46] ▶
Really big issue like a crazy claim for the average person like like me to hear you the blue aliens already tough
[2:26:46 - 2:26:52] ▶
That's already tough agree
[2:26:52 - 2:26:53] ▶
But like when you're like I was forced to
[2:26:54 - 2:26:55] ▶
Uh, the Saturday for the air go out the federation, you know, whatever it gets to like all right
[2:26:55 - 2:26:59] ▶
What's that is so my first question is before we get into it because I want you to explain what this was
[2:26:59 - 2:27:04] ▶
What was the decision making process for you a not to share that with James when you testified on the documentary
[2:27:05 - 2:27:12] ▶
And be not to share it in the Twitter spaces when you went public and add a six hour forum to share your experience
[2:27:12 - 2:27:17] ▶
Initially, I thought it was bad for it. I didn't want to talk about it for the film because it was something that I did not like to talk about to begin with
[2:27:17 - 2:27:25] ▶
I really remember and
[2:27:25 - 2:27:27] ▶
I was comfortable talking about other subject matter
[2:27:31 - 2:27:33] ▶
Um, however, you know, there are people that are close to me that did get to have more information than even congress did in certain aspects and one of them is this particular part of the program that they run
[2:27:34 - 2:27:45] ▶
That deals with no kidding stuff that that is
[2:27:47 - 2:27:49] ▶
Cleaning up problems for themselves
[2:27:50 - 2:27:52] ▶
Um, and we'd be that human or otherwise that being the case
[2:27:53 - 2:27:57] ▶
Um, so they do have a part of the program and people that do handle that in your opinion in my opinion
[2:27:58 - 2:28:03] ▶
Okay, let's leave it at that. Yeah, so anyway
[2:28:03 - 2:28:05] ▶
That's the kind of thing that I was asked about now there was there a thought process when they asked me this
[2:28:05 - 2:28:10] ▶
No, they caught me off guard is what happened
[2:28:10 - 2:28:13] ▶
Um, because like I said the PTSD dealing with some of this this crap that goes on inside the program is very hard to handle
[2:28:13 - 2:28:21] ▶
And what were so what it just just so the people have transparency out there because you have said this publicly
[2:28:21 - 2:28:26] ▶
What is it that you explain was the context with this as in you received an order from someone at some point that said
[2:28:26 - 2:28:34] ▶
You got to shoot this NHI and I feel really uncomfortable talking about this because this is a credibility destroyer in my opinion
[2:28:35 - 2:28:43] ▶
And it really bothers me. I don't like that. And I don't want to be connected to it
[2:28:43 - 2:28:46] ▶
It's gonna bring me there. Well there. Well actually I've already told him that all right
[2:28:46 - 2:28:50] ▶
So so you're gonna make those claims. I'm walking out the door. No, I'm not just sorry
[2:28:50 - 2:28:54] ▶
I could tell you it's already bad enough. Yeah, because right now we're treading a line where I said even if it's true
[2:28:54 - 2:29:01] ▶
Don't talk about it right and not to say that I believe it. It's a credibility killer and it it's horrible
[2:29:01 - 2:29:07] ▶
James I understand that yeah when you interviewed Jason. Yeah, he didn't tell me about it. The documentary does none of this there
[2:29:07 - 2:29:14] ▶
We've already described how you went through invented it. Yeah, nothing's perfect in whatever it no story perfect with anyone regardless
[2:29:14 - 2:29:20] ▶
I just I don't feel comfortable talking about it. Okay, it's up in that I would like
[2:29:20 - 2:29:24] ▶
It's horrible that it even happened and I and I've explained to him if you're trying to discredit your entire everything
[2:29:24 - 2:29:30] ▶
Then continue on the path then let then let me ask
[2:29:31 - 2:29:34] ▶
I will I'm really uncomfortable. All right listen to say no out of respect for you
[2:29:34 - 2:29:38] ▶
I'm gonna refer people to the post disclosure. Yeah podcast
[2:29:38 - 2:29:41] ▶
Okay, we will have the link make sure we have the link to that in the description. I'll I'll double check that
[2:29:41 - 2:29:46] ▶
And so to clarify on my side. Yes, why what made you want I was caught totally off guard
[2:29:46 - 2:29:52] ▶
But why did you say it?
[2:29:52 - 2:29:53] ▶
Because they asked me I'm anybody who knows me knows I'm an honest guy that I will if I have a question and to
[2:29:53 - 2:30:00] ▶
That I'm given I will give you at least what I can talk about
[2:30:01 - 2:30:04] ▶
Made my head spin when they asked me this because this is attached to some very dark times that I had to go through
[2:30:08 - 2:30:14] ▶
For out of respect for me at least it took me a good week to get my head back after that interview
[2:30:18 - 2:30:24] ▶
Okay, it was that bad. I mean you're talking like a PTSD kind of a
[2:30:25 - 2:30:29] ▶
On fire kind of guy. That's what happened to me. I do not want to walk that path again
[2:30:30 - 2:30:35] ▶
So what I think let me let me step in here for a second if you don't mind and I
[2:30:35 - 2:30:40] ▶
I'm gonna get to realize
[2:30:40 - 2:30:41] ▶
Because I got to look at this from my seat from a journalistic perspective from a human being perspective from a what we've heard today perspective all of it put together
[2:30:41 - 2:30:48] ▶
I've mentioned earlier. I don't think any one human is perfect. I don't think anyone's story is perfect
[2:30:49 - 2:30:54] ▶
I think there's a lot of gray area. I think that we have you've done an amazing job today
[2:30:54 - 2:30:58] ▶
demonstrating your life story the credibility of things you literally have done in the military yes
[2:30:59 - 2:31:05] ▶
The person you are and where you came from I was sitting here
[2:31:05 - 2:31:09] ▶
Move borderline detiers here and about your childhood and how you overcame that and all that I think that's incredible
[2:31:09 - 2:31:14] ▶
You have also voluntarily mentioned and I completely understand this and have the utmost respect for it
[2:31:14 - 2:31:19] ▶
That naturally through many experiences in your life from childhood to the military to some of the stuff we talked about today
[2:31:19 - 2:31:25] ▶
You certainly have PTSD which I talked with you off camera before like I
[2:31:25 - 2:31:30] ▶
That is a that is a subject that's very passionate that I'm very passionate about I've had the honor speaking with a lot of guys
[2:31:31 - 2:31:37] ▶
Especially people in the military, but some other people as well and other contexts on this podcast probably about
[2:31:37 - 2:31:42] ▶
I think I told you 15 or 20 times, but I think it was probably more than that
[2:31:43 - 2:31:46] ▶
I have to go back and count it in the course of this podcast and
[2:31:46 - 2:31:49] ▶
You know I understand that the way that sometimes
[2:31:49 - 2:31:53] ▶
Stories are expressed and memories are repressed or pulled out is not always perfect
[2:31:53 - 2:31:57] ▶
So I have respect for that and I have respect for the fact that maybe
[2:31:57 - 2:32:01] ▶
There are things you've said along the way where you get caught off guard
[2:32:02 - 2:32:05] ▶
You remember something that didn't happen or you remember something in a different context
[2:32:05 - 2:32:09] ▶
Not putting words in your mouth. I'm just saying hypothetically. Oh here's my mind on on exactly what
[2:32:10 - 2:32:15] ▶
I feel about that experience. Okay. I'm still dealing with even if it's a nightmare or a memory at this point. Yeah
[2:32:16 - 2:32:23] ▶
Because I have avoided it for so many years. I have also
[2:32:24 - 2:32:30] ▶
I have a psychiatrist that I talked to every month about PTSD, but I have not broached
[2:32:31 - 2:32:35] ▶
What I have been exposed to in full with that person and I am going to discuss everything
[2:32:36 - 2:32:42] ▶
With that person and if they're if the decision is that yes, this is just a repressed memory or if this is just something that
[2:32:42 - 2:32:49] ▶
Happened and your your mind is trying to do something with you and making you know
[2:32:51 - 2:32:55] ▶
Come up with a different memory just so you can survive that memory
[2:32:55 - 2:32:58] ▶
I want that part that psychiatrist to get their professional opinion not some guy on youtube or some guy on twitter
[2:32:59 - 2:33:05] ▶
They're not qualified for that
[2:33:06 - 2:33:08] ▶
All I all it happened was I got asked a question that was caught off guard is spike my PTSD
[2:33:08 - 2:33:13] ▶
That's where it is. Give me a break
[2:33:14 - 2:33:15] ▶
I'm gonna go back and ask the right questions and make sure that my psychiatrist knows
[2:33:16 - 2:33:19] ▶
And I'll talk about it and whether or not it's personal or not after that
[2:33:20 - 2:33:24] ▶
And I want to talk about it again. That's tied kind of up to me
[2:33:24 - 2:33:26] ▶
And whether it's gonna harm me or not
[2:33:27 - 2:33:28] ▶
Right now. I've already received a great deal of harm
[2:33:29 - 2:33:31] ▶
And which I feel bad for because I was the one they exposed you so you know, that was why it was all in me
[2:33:32 - 2:33:37] ▶
Well, not this one. I mean this one was kind of on me. I was saying your name. I did not have my guard
[2:33:38 - 2:33:42] ▶
I did not have my guard up properly and they caught me off on a question and I was like shit
[2:33:42 - 2:33:47] ▶
After I'd said it I thought to myself shit. I never should have brought this up
[2:33:47 - 2:33:51] ▶
And I should have just told him I am not comfortable talking about this leave me alone about it
[2:33:51 - 2:33:55] ▶
Okay, did it did it?
[2:33:56 - 2:33:58] ▶
Particularly staying when some members of the military community
[2:33:59 - 2:34:02] ▶
I have the greatest respect for the vets and the jacock folks the people that they actually interviewed with
[2:34:03 - 2:34:08] ▶
But like the guy who was in my career field and said oh jay couldn't have been in the sat program and he couldn't have been leaving for two weeks without everybody noticing
[2:34:11 - 2:34:19] ▶
I just showed you why that guy's wrong
[2:34:21 - 2:34:23] ▶
Jsock I have never claimed to have been a jsock guy. I helped them cover down their security on it
[2:34:24 - 2:34:29] ▶
So the jsock guy full respect for yes, he knows the stuff inside and out
[2:34:29 - 2:34:35] ▶
He does not know all the black programs and who's being hired because some of those guys are like him
[2:34:35 - 2:34:40] ▶
And didn't make the cut and then became mercenaries
[2:34:41 - 2:34:43] ▶
And I think there's some other people out there that have testimony they can say that there are some really nasty types in the mercenary core in these black programs
[2:34:44 - 2:34:51] ▶
For sure and so the jsock guy give him credit. He did a great job
[2:34:51 - 2:34:56] ▶
You know putting up what what he does for a living and I totally respect that
[2:34:56 - 2:35:01] ▶
You had mentioned way earlier that none and we talked move mentioned a few tons throughout that none of this when it was happening or whatever was discussed with your family in any way
[2:35:02 - 2:35:12] ▶
But you did discuss it in recent years around the time where you were gonna be coming forward with your life and your kids
[2:35:12 - 2:35:18] ▶
What what what were those conversations like
[2:35:18 - 2:35:20] ▶
They were tough. I mean when I told my wife she just literally was like what
[2:35:21 - 2:35:25] ▶
You know, and it's like yeah, I remember so and so and so and so and so
[2:35:26 - 2:35:29] ▶
And when I took off on this and that this is where we went and she was like yeah, and I was like that was a mission
[2:35:30 - 2:35:35] ▶
That I did for the program
[2:35:36 - 2:35:38] ▶
You kept this from me, you know, it turned into kind of a fight
[2:35:40 - 2:35:44] ▶
Because I was like yeah, I did it and I didn't tell you
[2:35:45 - 2:35:48] ▶
So it was tough and then some of my my kids they were like oh, this is good and now the other times you know
[2:35:49 - 2:35:55] ▶
Got a couple of two of the kids are just like
[2:35:56 - 2:35:57] ▶
I don't know what to think you know, but most of them are just in general. It's just saying yeah, you know
[2:35:58 - 2:36:02] ▶
This this could happen
[2:36:03 - 2:36:05] ▶
Obviously mind blowing stuff to say the least it is and it's not easy walk either
[2:36:07 - 2:36:13] ▶
No, I know I know I know and
[2:36:13 - 2:36:15] ▶
I hope that one day we all will be able to hear the full Monty and not have all this
[2:36:16 - 2:36:20] ▶
Having experienced it the way I did this is my reality, okay
[2:36:22 - 2:36:26] ▶
However, you guys did not have to that go through the things I did
[2:36:27 - 2:36:30] ▶
In some point I'm hoping that we get to the point of reality that we're not alone where you guys will get to know what I know
[2:36:31 - 2:36:37] ▶
And you're gonna be lonely like holy shit J was never telling us a lie
[2:36:37 - 2:36:40] ▶
We just couldn't accept it at this point in time and that may be a day within our lifetime
[2:36:40 - 2:36:45] ▶
And I'm hoping so and that's my point of wanting to come forward as well as that this is not
[2:36:46 - 2:36:50] ▶
And the other here's another thing about my way of thinking about why I did it on Twitter
[2:36:51 - 2:36:55] ▶
I've seen so many people good and people with integrity clearances and everything come forward to Congress and failed
[2:36:56 - 2:37:02] ▶
So many decade after decade after decade after decade of people coming in testimony
[2:37:04 - 2:37:08] ▶
And I thought well nobody's tried reaching out to the public and now we've got these great social platforms to be able to do this
[2:37:09 - 2:37:14] ▶
You know just about every great thing that this nation has done has been from the people
[2:37:17 - 2:37:20] ▶
You know where the ones who fought for our independence right you know all these great things we've done all throughout our our lifetime as a nation
[2:37:21 - 2:37:27] ▶
And I was like maybe the people are the missing key
[2:37:27 - 2:37:29] ▶
Maybe that's the thing that's gonna push Congress to actually go out there and get the investigation done and get to disclosure
[2:37:30 - 2:37:36] ▶
You know and then then maybe some of the other people that have been in the program with me will come back and say yeah everything J said is that's true
[2:37:36 - 2:37:44] ▶
I know that they did this
[2:37:45 - 2:37:47] ▶
And that's not there yet
[2:37:47 - 2:37:48] ▶
That's the thing even if you go back and some things actually are repressed
[2:37:48 - 2:37:52] ▶
Memories that maybe didn't happen come back
[2:37:54 - 2:37:56] ▶
But there are pieces of what you say let's even put a low percentage right let's say of 10% of what you say is real
[2:37:56 - 2:38:02] ▶
It's a big deal it is and and I want to not only give you that respect but also
[2:38:02 - 2:38:08] ▶
At least leave open the possibility that there are things we're dealing with that we
[2:38:08 - 2:38:12] ▶
Cannot conceive of in the general public that guys like you are helping to bring forward now
[2:38:13 - 2:38:17] ▶
You've talked about these other whistleblowers obviously David crushes the most well-known of them
[2:38:17 - 2:38:21] ▶
But there's around 40 or whatever who are in this network that he's talked to
[2:38:21 - 2:38:24] ▶
You've had a chance to talk with at least a few of them
[2:38:25 - 2:38:27] ▶
Have you had some tough conversations with them where you guys are talking about each other stories and being like really did that really happen?
[2:38:28 - 2:38:34] ▶
Yeah, all the time they've experienced other things and other times have been very accepting because I'm like yeah that fits what I know
[2:38:35 - 2:38:40] ▶
There's some whistleblowers and I'm like I don't know what to think about that
[2:38:41 - 2:38:45] ▶
Somebody was telling me just the other day that I actually respect the opinion of this individual who seemed to be in a position to know
[2:38:46 - 2:38:52] ▶
That they're only roughly 20 people on the entire planet that have the bigger picture. Yes. Do you agree with that? I agree with that
[2:38:53 - 2:39:00] ▶
This thing that's that was the kind of the the curse and the beauty of my position is that
[2:39:01 - 2:39:06] ▶
I had to be right in at the umbrella level like the leadership is
[2:39:06 - 2:39:10] ▶
So I didn't have to go you know if I went to write Patterson
[2:39:10 - 2:39:12] ▶
I didn't have to do a bunch of readings
[2:39:12 - 2:39:14] ▶
I could just automatically go and start monitoring without having to read into it
[2:39:14 - 2:39:17] ▶
Well all the programs they have running through there and then
[2:39:17 - 2:39:20] ▶
Also, I had the luxury of being and listening to the people at the tactical level
[2:39:20 - 2:39:25] ▶
That had all the detail of what was going on on a day-to-day basis inside those programs
[2:39:25 - 2:39:30] ▶
There's very few people that have that level of detail and
[2:39:31 - 2:39:33] ▶
The big picture that the leadership knows and that's what my team was hired to do is that we listened to all of that
[2:39:34 - 2:39:40] ▶
So it's a very unique level of information
[2:39:41 - 2:39:44] ▶
But think about it. Let me give you an example then just to run through your mind that you can understand where I'm coming from
[2:39:45 - 2:39:50] ▶
And this is what I kind of did with Congress too, and I'll say say it here as well
[2:39:51 - 2:39:55] ▶
I'm not going to shortchange you on language
[2:39:56 - 2:39:58] ▶
I'm here for one reason only and that is to make things better for people
[2:40:01 - 2:40:04] ▶
And if you can't see that from my look on my face the sincerity in my voice
[2:40:05 - 2:40:08] ▶
Then you got something else going on through your head because you can tell I'm a man that doesn't
[2:40:09 - 2:40:14] ▶
Cotton to anybody else other than what I know and what I'm trying to do to help people
[2:40:15 - 2:40:19] ▶
Now let's put the show on the other foot now. Let's say that we're the intergalactic race, okay
[2:40:19 - 2:40:25] ▶
And another civilization is looking at us, okay
[2:40:26 - 2:40:29] ▶
What kinds of things in our society if I talked about that are really off my rocker if
[2:40:31 - 2:40:34] ▶
Where as messed up as as we are right now and you're a race coming in from another planet
[2:40:35 - 2:40:40] ▶
Looking at what the hell's going on on this planet and the crap we put up with
[2:40:40 - 2:40:44] ▶
It's hard to conceive because I can't put myself in there exactly and that's just it is that this is what I've been exposed to
[2:40:45 - 2:40:50] ▶
This with other people have been exposed to
[2:40:50 - 2:40:52] ▶
It's so hard to know what you know
[2:40:54 - 2:40:56] ▶
Get it off your chest because some of it does affect you badly and some of it
[2:40:59 - 2:41:03] ▶
Does affect you well because I mean that encounter in the desert
[2:41:03 - 2:41:06] ▶
I actually it changed my life for the better. I feel because I was there
[2:41:07 - 2:41:10] ▶
Yeah, because I feel like that guy was very civilized and I kind of want to be that person
[2:41:11 - 2:41:16] ▶
I want to be calm and peaceful
[2:41:17 - 2:41:19] ▶
Accepting and everything else. I didn't want to be that fearful guy that felt snake bit
[2:41:19 - 2:41:23] ▶
So in a way you even though he looked different and whatever and you knew that's not from here
[2:41:24 - 2:41:27] ▶
Yeah, there was a kindness to him you view them as a and you use that word you view him as like a person
[2:41:27 - 2:41:32] ▶
Yeah, I don't call him an e to your know he's a person
[2:41:32 - 2:41:35] ▶
And that's just what I think that's something that a lot of people in this field don't even think about
[2:41:35 - 2:41:39] ▶
Because wait a minute complete your thought please if you've even had one encounter that's true
[2:41:40 - 2:41:45] ▶
There's a civilization that's got its own form of government. It's got its own legal problem
[2:41:46 - 2:41:50] ▶
The sky its own people have to go to jail
[2:41:50 - 2:41:52] ▶
There's people that do nasty stuff to other people they get into wars just like we do
[2:41:53 - 2:41:57] ▶
They're not thinking full hardly on they're just seeing the shiny object in the sky
[2:41:58 - 2:42:01] ▶
And wanting to know about the little green men
[2:42:02 - 2:42:04] ▶
But they're forgetting about all the real meaningful questions about that's a civilization that craft was built in a manufacturing plant where
[2:42:04 - 2:42:11] ▶
You know you got to think about that because it's not just some shiny object. It's like a college-y was event
[2:42:12 - 2:42:17] ▶
But there's steps there steps that need to happen like if you take a guy like me
[2:42:17 - 2:42:22] ▶
I've been at this for 30 years and
[2:42:23 - 2:42:25] ▶
I didn't report on close encounters of the third kind for 25 years. Yes almost yeah about 25 years because I knew it was a slippery slope
[2:42:26 - 2:42:33] ▶
And I knew that I hate to go back to that expression
[2:42:34 - 2:42:37] ▶
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. It's a great expression now. Some respects. It's really true
[2:42:37 - 2:42:42] ▶
It's yes if you're gonna put it out there
[2:42:42 - 2:42:44] ▶
My god. We had something to that. Yeah extraordinary claims
[2:42:44 - 2:42:47] ▶
require extraordinary explanation
[2:42:48 - 2:42:50] ▶
But they also require an extraordinary investigation which we have never had in this country. Yeah, no question about it
[2:42:50 - 2:42:57] ▶
I used that quote all the time James you said that in episode 138
[2:42:57 - 2:43:01] ▶
I'd never heard that before that comes up probably every five podcasts or something
[2:43:01 - 2:43:04] ▶
And it's true, you know, but this thing is just like what you just said it requires extraordinary investigation
[2:43:04 - 2:43:09] ▶
We owe it to ourselves because if anything if this gentleman saying and a lot of other people that are saying
[2:43:10 - 2:43:16] ▶
That's true. I know I'm just saying like I reported this all around the world
[2:43:16 - 2:43:20] ▶
If if it's true the implications are global
[2:43:21 - 2:43:24] ▶
Which is not just in the United States issue right? Yeah, so we owe it to ourselves to
[2:43:24 - 2:43:28] ▶
provide the platform needed
[2:43:29 - 2:43:31] ▶
To create an environment for these individuals to come and give us the details needed to verify their claims because
[2:43:31 - 2:43:37] ▶
It's the stakes are too high not to
[2:43:37 - 2:43:39] ▶
James and Jay just because this podcast is different than anyone I've ever done before and because of the
[2:43:42 - 2:43:49] ▶
Varacity of the claims we talked about today and everything I want to address each use separately for a second
[2:43:49 - 2:43:54] ▶
So I'm gonna go one by one and then we'll close this up. So that's good
[2:43:54 - 2:43:56] ▶
So first of all Jay and I said this already, but I want to say this again
[2:43:57 - 2:43:59] ▶
I appreciate you sharing everything today and going through even very difficult memories and being very open and forthcoming
[2:43:59 - 2:44:06] ▶
I've enjoyed spending time with you off camera. You strike me as a really you strike me as a really really good guy
[2:44:06 - 2:44:12] ▶
And I want to put the cards on the table right now. I thought
[2:44:12 - 2:44:16] ▶
When I first looked at this story it was complete bullshit
[2:44:18 - 2:44:21] ▶
I really did and I looked at and I said and the strange thing is I would watch you
[2:44:22 - 2:44:26] ▶
I would listen to you talk like on the spaces and then I watch you on another interview
[2:44:26 - 2:44:31] ▶
That was done. I think with the new paradigm guys
[2:44:31 - 2:44:33] ▶
and I'm like, you know
[2:44:33 - 2:44:35] ▶
I said across from a lot of people I don't bad a thousand but I'm pretty fucking good at it right like
[2:44:35 - 2:44:39] ▶
It doesn't feel like a stonk old liar or anything like that like there's something else going on here and
[2:44:40 - 2:44:46] ▶
Thank you. That said because of the Varacity of the claims
[2:44:47 - 2:44:50] ▶
I was like I was thinking about this yesterday and like how the fuck am I gonna go in here with an open mind tomorrow
[2:44:51 - 2:44:57] ▶
Like because that's that's my job
[2:44:57 - 2:44:58] ▶
I got I got to go in here and I got to ask the questions and I got to do it from
[2:44:58 - 2:45:01] ▶
We all of our biases, but as a human being on a human to human level
[2:45:01 - 2:45:04] ▶
I got to do this from the level of you know
[2:45:04 - 2:45:06] ▶
Really trying to connect and letting your words tell the story sink or swim
[2:45:06 - 2:45:10] ▶
On your own and and this morning I I wanted did a really hard workout
[2:45:10 - 2:45:14] ▶
I got to do a boxing workout this morning. I was flowing. I came in here and
[2:45:14 - 2:45:19] ▶
You know, I I think I think I did have an open mind and I don't rule out everything you said
[2:45:20 - 2:45:26] ▶
You you you you've sold me on the sense that they're at first of all your military record is for
[2:45:26 - 2:45:31] ▶
Is on the record and believe that that's all there and I appreciate that that we had that all shared and had that exclusively
[2:45:31 - 2:45:38] ▶
What you're talking about in childhood? I I think that that's certainly I can't even imagine that I got to grow up in a great home with
[2:45:40 - 2:45:47] ▶
With with parents who luckily didn't have substance abuse problems or anything like that
[2:45:47 - 2:45:51] ▶
I count my lucky stars for that every day and so
[2:45:51 - 2:45:54] ▶
Somewhere along here that there's there's a lot of levels of truth and because of the things you've been through
[2:45:54 - 2:45:59] ▶
There are things that you just laid out very beautifully yourself that could be
[2:45:59 - 2:46:03] ▶
repressed memories or things that you remember differently than how they really are and some of the claims could
[2:46:03 - 2:46:09] ▶
Perhaps outlandish at a point
[2:46:10 - 2:46:12] ▶
That said if there is even a small percentage of truth to what you've said about potential contact with NHI and any of that can be used
[2:46:13 - 2:46:21] ▶
To push forward in the future some positive disclosure so that human beings can be given the base information
[2:46:22 - 2:46:28] ▶
They should be allowed to know which is that we are not alone if that is the case
[2:46:28 - 2:46:31] ▶
Then I think it's a net win and I and I wish you all the best and I thank you for sharing all that
[2:46:32 - 2:46:38] ▶
James and I and I you and I go way back you go farther back with a Lessie here again
[2:46:40 - 2:46:46] ▶
We gave a shout out earlier, but like a lessie was literally making moment of contact with you
[2:46:46 - 2:46:50] ▶
College down in Brazil
[2:46:51 - 2:46:53] ▶
Like it's the coolest back story like you and I are tied together kind of forever and a lot of it
[2:46:53 - 2:46:58] ▶
Stuff was crazy holy crap
[2:46:58 - 2:47:00] ▶
Well, I think Scott something we should do a podcast on that he's got something same behind the scenes stories
[2:47:01 - 2:47:05] ▶
We did do episode 85 where we discussed some of that so people could check that out
[2:47:05 - 2:47:08] ▶
But you know I care about you a lot. I have the utmost respect for you
[2:47:09 - 2:47:13] ▶
I think forget you oppose you want the greatest documentary filmmakers. I've ever seen in my life your true artist
[2:47:13 - 2:47:19] ▶
You've worked your ass off your whole life you care genuinely about this disclosure and getting truth to people
[2:47:19 - 2:47:25] ▶
You're one of the happiest people I've ever met in my life
[2:47:26 - 2:47:28] ▶
You're an incredible father as well and an incredible partner to Rebecca and just I can't emphasize enough like the James Fox
[2:47:29 - 2:47:36] ▶
You see on camera like he's even better off camera and
[2:47:36 - 2:47:39] ▶
I hear you because I know how much you worry about your credibility especially because you're looking at a very touchy subject matter here
[2:47:40 - 2:47:46] ▶
And I hear you with that concern and that's why I was respectful of some of that today to not go there
[2:47:46 - 2:47:51] ▶
But I'm speaking hypothetically here
[2:47:51 - 2:47:53] ▶
I know no no I'm good. I knew what I was getting myself into we are good
[2:47:53 - 2:47:57] ▶
I hope you can understand this just let me speak let me speak hypothetically for a second
[2:47:57 - 2:48:01] ▶
If someone like Jay or any other witness ends up being completely full of shit and a total liar
[2:48:01 - 2:48:08] ▶
If you did your job as a documentarian which is to okay, there's someone who's making a claim here
[2:48:08 - 2:48:14] ▶
Let's put the cameras up. Let's ask them the questions about what it is
[2:48:15 - 2:48:18] ▶
They're gonna tell me what they tell me whether the line or telling the truth
[2:48:18 - 2:48:21] ▶
That's what it is. I'm gonna capture it for the people and allow the people to decide in my opinion
[2:48:21 - 2:48:25] ▶
You should never worry about that from a credibility standpoint now if you vet somebody and there's a
[2:48:26 - 2:48:32] ▶
Fucktunner red flags or whatever and you choose to ignore those
[2:48:33 - 2:48:36] ▶
That's a different situation and you have been accused of that by some people on the internet
[2:48:37 - 2:48:40] ▶
Regarding Jason on this and I know that's not the case
[2:48:40 - 2:48:44] ▶
I know that's not what happened you've laid that out you laid that out with Joe Rogan the biggest show in the world
[2:48:44 - 2:48:48] ▶
People can hear exactly like what the thought process was here
[2:48:48 - 2:48:50] ▶
So when I hear you you know a half hour ago get really uptight about some stuff
[2:48:51 - 2:48:54] ▶
I respect you and I understand that I want to let you know and you want to talk to against you on that
[2:48:55 - 2:48:59] ▶
I will defend you all day. I will make sure the big dogs defend you all day and fuck them
[2:48:59 - 2:49:03] ▶
I know what you're about. I want you to continue doing what you're doing
[2:49:03 - 2:49:05] ▶
I'm so proud of where you've gotten to based on all the bullshit that's happening you and
[2:49:05 - 2:49:10] ▶
I'm honored to have you in here as always
[2:49:11 - 2:49:13] ▶
Appreciate you, and I want to say the same thing. I totally echo that you know
[2:49:13 - 2:49:17] ▶
You are the man in my mind and you he's everything you said about your artistry
[2:49:20 - 2:49:24] ▶
Your work ethic your your great person is absolutely true. Well, it's you know, it's not about me. It's not about you
[2:49:24 - 2:49:31] ▶
It's not about any of us. It's about probably what will turn out to be the biggest story in modern history in my opinion
[2:49:31 - 2:49:37] ▶
and uh and if any of it's true
[2:49:37 - 2:49:40] ▶
The implications are so vast and so significant. We owe it to ourselves
[2:49:40 - 2:49:44] ▶
To keep pushing for transparency and find out what is going on
[2:49:45 - 2:49:49] ▶
Where I and here's one thing I want to leave it with as well is that
[2:49:49 - 2:49:52] ▶
You guys and the skepticism that people like whistleblowers and like me and other people have come forward
[2:49:53 - 2:50:00] ▶
Um congress is exactly like that right now because they're like
[2:50:00 - 2:50:04] ▶
Holy crap. This is number 40. We've heard 40 people clearances polygraphs
[2:50:05 - 2:50:10] ▶
What do I do with this?
[2:50:12 - 2:50:14] ▶
They're like you and then we have these other stories that are quite incredible and you've got 40 of us now are more
[2:50:14 - 2:50:20] ▶
And congress themselves are like
[2:50:21 - 2:50:23] ▶
Should we act on this?
[2:50:24 - 2:50:26] ▶
I mean I can't think of another
[2:50:28 - 2:50:30] ▶
Part of my lifetime when I've seen so many people that have already been vetted
[2:50:30 - 2:50:33] ▶
By all of these authorities and still we're on the fence about it
[2:50:34 - 2:50:38] ▶
Well the the handful of people behind the scenes have gotten the details needed
[2:50:38 - 2:50:42] ▶
To verify their claims and that is what the American public deserves to have happened
[2:50:42 - 2:50:47] ▶
100% right we need to provide immunity to people like yourself
[2:50:47 - 2:50:50] ▶
Put you on the sand have you testify under oath and give us the details that we need to prove or disprove what you're saying right
[2:50:50 - 2:50:58] ▶
All right, well guys like drop we we're gonna have both your Twitter links down below
[2:50:58 - 2:51:02] ▶
We're going to have the link to well ex links whatever it's called now we're gonna have the link to the program
[2:51:02 - 2:51:08] ▶
Which I want everyone to check out you did an excellent job
[2:51:08 - 2:51:10] ▶
What we obviously I think what it's I'm gonna decide this later
[2:51:11 - 2:51:13] ▶
But we recorded for about four and a half hours today
[2:51:13 - 2:51:15] ▶
So the first hour and a half may be a first opener podcast and this one where we started on your story
[2:51:15 - 2:51:20] ▶
Maybe a separate one. I'll decide that later
[2:51:20 - 2:51:22] ▶
But everyone go check out the program. Please go support this man James Fox and in the meantime
[2:51:22 - 2:51:28] ▶
If you want to go hear more details on the actual program and behind the scenes you did an amazing podcast with Joe Rogan
[2:51:29 - 2:51:34] ▶
And also my friend Chris Ramsey so people could go check that out and you did some other ones as well
[2:51:34 - 2:51:38] ▶
I think with with with Matt and Shane secret podcast
[2:51:38 - 2:51:41] ▶
Yeah, Duncan and and Duncan Trussle
[2:51:41 - 2:51:43] ▶
So there's all kinds of places to hear James talk more about the program if you want that contact
[2:51:43 - 2:51:47] ▶
That that content, but thank you guys so much and we'll close it there. Yeah, thank you guys
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You get to the great job. All right, everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me
[2:51:51 - 2:51:55] ▶
Thanks you guys for watching the episode before you leave
[2:51:55 - 2:51:58] ▶
Please be sure to hit that subscribe button and smash that like button on the video
[2:51:58 - 2:52:01] ▶
It's a huge help and also if you're over on Instagram
[2:52:01 - 2:52:04] ▶
Be sure to follow the show at Julien Dory podcast or also on my
[2:52:04 - 2:52:08] ▶
Personal page at Julien D. Dory both links are in the description below
[2:52:08 - 2:52:12] ▶
Finally if you'd like to catch up on our latest episodes use the Julien Dory podcast playlist link in the description below
[2:52:13 - 2:52:19] ▶