Transcript: Michael Herrera - Insights into UAP Encounter and Black Program Insiders

What's going on guys, it's UAP Gurb and thank you so much for joining me for this in-person

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interview with UMC vet and Arrow Whistleblower Michael Herrera.

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Before we get into this interview, there's just a couple things I want to touch on.

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I co-hosted this interview with my good friend Joey is not my name.

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Many of you will remember him from my first video on Michael or have seen him around Reddit

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and Twitter as one of the first people to really start investigating Michael's claims

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of his experience in 2009 in Indonesia seriously.

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When we sat down to conduct this interview, we saw to really ask some of the lesser-ask

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questions and lesser-known details of Michael's encounter in 2009 and his claims of meeting

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a black program insider.

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So we do kind of expect you to be somewhat familiar with Michael's story, at least know

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the base details of his own experience and his follow-up claims.

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If you haven't, I highly recommend checking out my original video on Michael that I did

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with Joey or watch his Sean Ryan show podcast appearance.

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Both are fantastic videos I highly recommend checking them out if you're not too familiar

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with Michael's story.

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If you'll remember back to my Marines and UFO's video, you'll recall this is the first

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time I ever covered Michael's story and I was super dismissive of him, super skeptical.

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That's why after all these months of talking to Joey, talking to Michael, sharing meals

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with Michael, hosting Joey and conducting this interview, I'm super excited to revisit

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this case.

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As it's one I've been privately investigating on my own for quite a while.

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So without further ado, please enjoy this interview with Joey is not my name and Michael

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Herrera.

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So you guys get to the top of the hill and of course this is when you observe this object,

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who, which part of your team first observed this?

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It had to have been, it wasn't me, it was somebody else and they were more pointing like

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what is that?

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And so this was a big misconception for me at first.

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Joey had to kind of help me visualize this as I'm sure it was for a lot of other people

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too.

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You guys only saw the top triangular section and some lights of this.

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Not really lights, lights didn't happen until the thing actually took off.

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But you can see, I mean if you're going to try to think that these are two trees, right?

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And that's kind of like where you can see the top part of it, but then you see the other

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part, but you can't make out the whole size of it, right?

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Because you have trees and everything distorting it.

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So really only we saw was something changing colors, often this little thing that I had

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visual on and you see it moving around.

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It's like, it's not a building.

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I mean, we thought it was a building at a point, but I mean, it's just off in the distance

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right there and it's changing colors.

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Something that you have green vegetation sticks out like a sore thumb.

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It's easier to say if it was a building because I mean, you'd expect kind of buildings

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to be in that area.

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But this area didn't have any of those buildings, didn't have anything like that.

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So who made the decision to kind of go forward and check this out?

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It wasn't me.

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And it was the person in charge.

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And as you as one that did that.

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As you approach the object, you could only still see just above the tree line, the top

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of the object.

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Yeah, so when we got down that hill and it was something we weren't allowed to do obviously

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because you're not supposed to abandon your whatever you're posting.

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Yeah, I'm curious about that.

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When you describe like what was going on at the LZ at the time where you guys decided,

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I mean, to make this decision, this risky decision, to go and check out whatever this was.

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So I don't remember much going on at the LZ.

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I just remember taking video of that helicopter that was off in the distance.

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It wasn't like it was super close.

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Did you guys feel like that helicopter was like part of your responsibility to guard or

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was it like?

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We did assume that there probably was other people there or probably other Marines on board

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that there were probably dropping off in that area.

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That would be my assumption.

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I don't remember thinking anything like that back then, 14, 15 years ago.

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Yeah, I mean, I can imagine whatever you guys saw.

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Well, it was something that it was abnormal.

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And, you know, curiosity is a good thing to an extent.

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But I tell people at the time, curiosity is what kills a cat.

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And it's something in this way that it changed our lives.

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Yeah, I mean, it wasn't a light decision.

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It was a risky decision and you guys made the choice.

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I mean, we didn't even rack around in the chamber.

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It's just like we weren't expecting to really get into anything like that.

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You know, it was just walking down, trying to see what that is.

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And then if it wasn't nothing, we're just going to go back up the hill and resume to what

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we were doing.

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And obviously, it led to what we experienced.

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When you're walking, you know, you guys are at the top of the hill.

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The decision is made to go check this thing out.

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And at the top of the hill, you don't actually see any people.

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You didn't see those trucks yet.

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You're just seeing the top of the craft.

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So you guys go down the moment of interception with these guys.

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Can you describe?

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I think what gets lost on a lot of people is how fast it happened and how quickly they

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took control of the situation.

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I mean, what was your first impression when you saw these guys?

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Well, I heard people yelling at us.

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That's what got my attention.

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And when we saw weapons in their hands pointed at us, you're not going to move.

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You're not going to raise your weapon up because obviously, at that point, and then obviously

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you're entering the briefing, I had touched on in numerous interviews that there was a possible

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seal team that was out there trying to handle things that they were tasked on.

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What they were specifically doing, I don't know.

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But I remember in the ward room that that's what they were talking about, having some

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sort of element of US Navy seals there.

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And for a second, we thought it may have been them and we're just like, oh, shit, here's

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these guys.

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You know, then obviously we were going to talk or something or just go, but these guys

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were not carrying themselves as seals and they didn't have anything identifying on them.

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And obviously, they were screaming at us telling us to put our weapons, you know, put

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our hands up in the air because we had slings on our stuff, right?

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So that's when we're putting our hands up in the air and every single one of us did the

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same thing.

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It's not like, I mean, how are we going to raise a weapon that doesn't even have a full

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chamber?

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What are you going to do at that point?

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If you even rack that round and try to bring it up, they've already got their muzzles

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pointed at you.

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It's almost like a police officer coming up to your vehicle when they do a traffic stop

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and they feel threatened or they may have an indication that your vehicle matches the

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description of somebody who has had a gun pointed at them, for example, where they would

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believe that it's reasonable suspicion for them to deploy their firearm.

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Are you going to move suddenly and make him think you're going to reach for something

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and he just blasts you?

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No.

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And how did these men approach you in a tactical column, a pincer?

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We were the one that was in a tactical column they had.

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So if I was looking at this and we kind of started, and that's when we naturally kind

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of spread out like walking towards them, and that's when they basically had four guys

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on this side and they have four guys on this side.

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And I talked to numerous special operators about this type of tactic and they call it a

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nosebleed, which is where they have basically interlocking fields of fire with this direction

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on one target.

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It's a very rookie, easy thing to do.

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And these guys, they already had that position.

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So it tells me that maybe there could have been more operators that were around that area,

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maybe on the other side of the craft, on the other side of where the trucks may have

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went off, which I didn't see them go off anywhere.

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But from what I've been told, there was more than just those guys there.

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So if we would have gotten into any kind of conflict, we were severely outnumbered already.

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What point did the craft become fully visible?

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When we got to the bottom of the hill and we walked a little bit forward and it started

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to clear out.

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And that's when this thing was just sitting there.

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And then the men approached you right after you noticed that.

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As soon as we broke that threshold of getting into that clearing is where they basically

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had us intercepted.

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It's not like we could run behind anything because you can't.

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Right.

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And the trees weren't like big red oak trees where you could hide behind.

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They remember the trees probably being as big as this water bottle, at least how thick,

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probably a little bit thicker.

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But that's not enough to stop anything.

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Yeah.

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So I'm not going to hide behind and not get hit.

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So everybody has the whole, they think they're John Wick until they're in that situation.

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But it's like I would like to see anybody else in that situation to see what they would

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have done.

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Because knowing what type of operators we encountered now that I've already been through all of this,

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been briefed on it, been included to an extent.

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None of us would have been a match for those guys.

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Yeah.

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And so what did these men do as they train the rifles on you as they approach you?

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So we heard, they were pointed, they were screaming at us.

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You could actually hear them flip everything off safe.

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And because it's not able to click.

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And where we were at, obviously there's not a lot of noise coming from the hill, obviously,

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because everything that's going on over there is basically silent because you have a hill

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blocking everything.

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And then the craft's not emitting any kind of noise, except for that little hum or that

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guitar amp.

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I mean, it's not exactly like a guitar amp or like a transformer, but it's something similar

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to that.

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You actually replicated pretty good to an extent.

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So that wasn't as audible compared to when everything started to go on and when they had

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us, because we weren't at the where we just broke that threshold, right?

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We actually pulled up a little bit more as they were telling us to.

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And so they had their weapons on every single one of us.

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And there was only six of us.

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There was eight of them, which means that it's easy for them just to, I mean, I don't

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even know if their weapons are full auto.

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And they probably could be ours or not.

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There are only three round bursts or semi-automatic.

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And most of the time they teach us to shoot in the semi-automatic, one round per person,

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a kill shot at least.

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So, I mean, it's not a head shot.

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I mean, you have a tee box and what you're trained for combat marksmanship, but these

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guys could have full automatic M4s.

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I wouldn't have rolled it out, which means that they just need to each person doing a couple

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round bursts, three to five round bursts.

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I mean, it's going to get everybody where we were at.

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Now one thing that people bring up is, you know, you had your camera at the top of the

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hill, you actually got some pictures of what you guys were doing.

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I remember at least a couple photographs, but I remember a video as well.

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I remember a video and that's when I had a dump pouch, which all of us did have a dump

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pouch.

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But I had it right here all the time and that's where we basically put expensive magazines

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because you're not going to drop them because you have to reuse them.

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So, and it also helped too if you had Terry extra ammo because if you had some malfunction

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or sometimes we use the saws with, because my hat regular saw drum pouches are my stuff,

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where I could put a drum here and a drum here and then I had grenade pouches up here.

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And most of the time I would just put magazines and whatever the easiest side to reach was,

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and that's basically what I had.

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So we didn't have like M4 or M16 pouches.

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I had saw drum pouches where I had all the mags in, which we had a combat load as six mags.

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They disarmed you, right?

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That was kind of their first, like once they approached you, you've described how they

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were very methodical and how they did that.

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They wanted to gain control of the situation, which they had that control, right?

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But they're going to sleep better because they took our weapons from us and saw them

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and going through, making sure that we had our magazines out.

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It wasn't like they were spending us like some law enforcement officer checking you,

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tracking around your ankles, anything like that.

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They're not doing that.

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The only thing that they searched us with was our military IDs where they knew they were out,

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which is what my suspicion was that these guys were former military at some point,

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because they knew exactly where our IDs were.

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And you said they interacted with your IDs with something that looked what we would recognize

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today as a modern day smartphone?

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Yeah, so they had something that I referred to as a batch system that we were trained on,

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which is like a biometrics and tracking system.

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I know that it could be the acronym for it, but I just remember saying,

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BATS, and they tried that first.

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So they put that away and they had these things.

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I mean, it wasn't like, because iPhones were kind of bulky back in the day,

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and they had blackberries, and I had a Sony Ericsson MP3 phone that was pretty bulky.

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They had something that was really thin, and that's what they were using.

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So it could have been something that was comparable, but then again, I don't know.

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So while you're getting searched, the craft is in the background for anybody that hasn't heard

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you describe this craft, can you tell us what it looks like?

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So I remember it as, because there was corners, which means to me it was an octagonal shape.

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Actually, could you, would you mind drawing it for us?

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Let's see, that depends over here.

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Let me, yeah, I like that idea.

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That would be cool.

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You know what? I'm going to move.

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All right, so what did this thing, what did this craft look like?

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Okay, so this is going from our point of view, right?

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That I can remember.

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So I'm just going to say this is like vegetation, right?

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And this is to represent that clearing.

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What I remember is kind of like a pyramid shape at the top like this,

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because I remember seeing some shading, and some were kind of brighter than others.

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Like this, then I remember it doing like this, and then it had corners, right?

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This may be looking a little bit strange, but this is just a rough draft.

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It used to be a better artist back in the day.

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And I remember seeing these vents, at least that's what it looks like on each of the corners,

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like this.

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So this is a vent here, and it was like it was positioned on the lines, like this.

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And then on each corner, when this thing took off, it had lights that would pop on,

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which would have been like red, yellow, green, and blue are the only ones I remember.

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That kind of had a line that went like this.

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And it had some sort of scale pattern that, you know, I estimate it is octagonal, but it could be,

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it could honestly be circular, it could be square.

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I wasn't close enough to depict it.

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But this is where this was the blackest, darkest thing that I have ever seen in my life.

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It's almost like light got absorbed into this, and I don't know if this is just because of the craft,

[0:14:26 - 0:14:31] ▶

it may help with a function.

[0:14:31 - 0:14:32] ▶

But there's probably through graders or something that say they can probably do a better job

[0:14:34 - 0:14:39] ▶

than this, and I'd probably agree with them.

[0:14:39 - 0:14:41] ▶

So now what about the platform?

[0:14:42 - 0:14:44] ▶

Platform underneath was kind of like it was raised, like this, not off the ground, but just like an

[0:14:44 - 0:14:49] ▶

incline. And then underneath like this, and it was around the same kind of length as a craft,

[0:14:49 - 0:14:56] ▶

and it had kind of some points on it as well, which, you know, obviously it fits under the craft,

[0:14:56 - 0:15:02] ▶

and we saw that happen. And it wasn't like, where we were at, I would say this is approximate,

[0:15:02 - 0:15:09] ▶

even the same distance as it was. There was not like it was any light or materials on here

[0:15:09 - 0:15:14] ▶

that I remember seeing. But then you have, I mean, a draw stick figures. So I'm just going to draw

[0:15:14 - 0:15:20] ▶

on black, because these are black team guys. And oh, this is not a fangirl or a Mona Lisa draw,

[0:15:20 - 0:15:31] ▶

but I'm just trying to gather everybody's attention to see how, what I can recall as this,

[0:15:31 - 0:15:38] ▶

and all these guys. And we were essentially in this area kind of online, four or five, six,

[0:15:38 - 0:15:45] ▶

right? We weren't like evenly spaced out, but you guys can kind of see how there's six of us,

[0:15:45 - 0:15:53] ▶

there's eight of them. They've got good field of view. We can see this going on the background.

[0:15:53 - 0:15:57] ▶

And I'm going to draw a line through this, but basically where the directions or the trucks

[0:15:58 - 0:16:02] ▶

came from were from our left. So they're coming up and then they would go like this. I don't remember,

[0:16:02 - 0:16:08] ▶

I don't remember seeing them go off the platform and going somewhere else. I just remember them

[0:16:08 - 0:16:12] ▶

going on here, but then we're also facing a fact that we're dealing with these guys at the same time.

[0:16:12 - 0:16:17] ▶

So our focus is going back and forth. One, you don't see anything that looks like that ever.

[0:16:17 - 0:16:23] ▶

Two, you're not in a situation where that happens either. So as I wish there was more details

[0:16:23 - 0:16:31] ▶

that I can remember aside from that, but that is what I briefly recall as far as what the

[0:16:31 - 0:16:37] ▶

craft looked like besides changing colors from a light matte gray to a dark matte black.

[0:16:37 - 0:16:42] ▶

The whole thing. And so before this craft took off, what did this platform do?

[0:16:42 - 0:16:46] ▶

So this craft kind of sunk down a little bit like this. This platform itself raised up.

[0:16:46 - 0:16:52] ▶

And there were trucks and other crates. I don't remember seeing the trucks. They could have been

[0:16:52 - 0:16:57] ▶

because where we were at and mind you, I didn't see it as it started going up. I saw it when

[0:16:57 - 0:17:03] ▶

we were going back and forth. And the only thing that got my attention and insured got everybody else's

[0:17:03 - 0:17:09] ▶

attention. And I'm only speaking from my point of view was the only thing that got my attention was

[0:17:09 - 0:17:15] ▶

something was moving. And because your eyes are used to attract movement, right? It's just something

[0:17:15 - 0:17:19] ▶

that gets your attention. So when I saw that raising up, it was already what I decided to make over

[0:17:19 - 0:17:25] ▶

our, if we're only five, 10 to six feet tall, it was probably almost 10 feet off the ground.

[0:17:25 - 0:17:31] ▶

Did it raise rapidly or in kind of a slow motion? Not super rapid. It was enough to kind of be

[0:17:31 - 0:17:37] ▶

slow, but still enough to where you could catch it. But I don't remember seeing any kind of

[0:17:37 - 0:17:42] ▶

containers going up with it or trucks or nothing. I just remember seeing the front profile, the truck

[0:17:42 - 0:17:49] ▶

with a trailer behind it. And that's why I was able to see that cylinder in front of that container.

[0:17:49 - 0:17:55] ▶

Let's get another piece of paper and draw the trucks. Okay. And actually, I want to show you this too.

[0:17:55 - 0:18:01] ▶

That drawing is going to be worth a lot of money someday. Let me do this. Oh, get the signature.

[0:18:01 - 0:18:08] ▶

Cool. This is probably a favorite part of the interview. You draw on this stuff. It's awesome.

[0:18:08 - 0:18:15] ▶

I feel like I'm in kindergarten now. Showing off your colors.

[0:18:15 - 0:18:18] ▶

You recognize it. It helps you describe as you're doing it.

[0:18:18 - 0:18:25] ▶

All right. So, all right, trucks. All right. So what are these trucks, the containers with them?

[0:18:28 - 0:18:34] ▶

Can you describe those? Yeah. So like I said, I only saw from certain profiles.

[0:18:34 - 0:18:39] ▶

And what I remember distinctly with these, I don't remember seeing like a four logo or nothing,

[0:18:39 - 0:18:44] ▶

like a Chevy Duramax on the hood or nothing like that. We're obviously we're kind of far

[0:18:44 - 0:18:48] ▶

weighing comparison to that. So I'm going to draw three different views or profiles, which I

[0:18:48 - 0:18:54] ▶

remember seeing these trucks. So the first one's going to be as if it was coming towards us.

[0:18:54 - 0:18:58] ▶

So there's going to be like a headlight here. There's like a grill, right? A bumper.

[0:18:59 - 0:19:06] ▶

And I had like a, I remember having like kind of like a hitch is what I'm assuming.

[0:19:08 - 0:19:12] ▶

And then another headlight here.

[0:19:13 - 0:19:17] ▶

Again, I'm going to apologize ahead of time that this isn't going to be

[0:19:22 - 0:19:25] ▶

a remember seeing now when you say you can see logos,

[0:19:28 - 0:19:32] ▶

like you didn't see board or chef. Yeah, I didn't see nothing like that.

[0:19:32 - 0:19:35] ▶

Stated what kind of truck they were though. Yeah, that's my

[0:19:36 - 0:19:39] ▶

recognize the body. Yeah, and I would say that they're for the F 350s. Yeah,

[0:19:39 - 0:19:44] ▶

is what I would assume they work. Yeah, they took. Yep. Gotcha.

[0:19:44 - 0:19:50] ▶

What I do recall saying is I had like these things on the sides here, kind of like vents,

[0:19:51 - 0:19:57] ▶

but they're not really vents. And it's kind of remind me of what they had on

[0:19:57 - 0:20:02] ▶

military humors for night vision. So that's kind of what they had on there, which tells me that

[0:20:03 - 0:20:07] ▶

they run these at night time as well. And these were like big, aggressive off-road tires, right?

[0:20:07 - 0:20:14] ▶

Truck bed, okay. And kind of see these cases, which are pelican cases on the back.

[0:20:15 - 0:20:23] ▶

And what are pelican cases for anybody who doesn't know? I mean, it's a brand, but these are weapons,

[0:20:24 - 0:20:30] ▶

where we, I mean, because we had the same ones that we transport weapons with. And that's just

[0:20:30 - 0:20:33] ▶

do the carry small arms, munitions, stuff like that. So then this was hooked to a trailer that had

[0:20:33 - 0:20:41] ▶

four wheels like this, okay, trailer. And the only thing I remember seeing of this container,

[0:20:42 - 0:20:54] ▶

I had the ridges kind of like a shipping container, but not much. I had the cylinder

[0:20:54 - 0:21:00] ▶

that's kind of on the front right here.

[0:21:01 - 0:21:03] ▶

So I wanted to show you this. Let me just throw this right in front of that so that camera gets it.

[0:21:08 - 0:21:13] ▶

What do you think of that? Looks identical. But then again,

[0:21:14 - 0:21:18] ▶

now the other thing, is there a member saying that having four or two tires on each side, right?

[0:21:20 - 0:21:26] ▶

Or dual axle. Yep. So this was another thing I found where they actually have the

[0:21:26 - 0:21:32] ▶

con X box on top of it.

[0:21:32 - 0:21:34] ▶

With more aggressive tires, but this looks shockingly familiar.

[0:21:36 - 0:21:40] ▶

Because that's the, that's like the type of, I mean, that's a ship and crate, you know,

[0:21:42 - 0:21:46] ▶

I think this is called a tricon configuration. So they're all standardized, like the sizes and

[0:21:46 - 0:21:50] ▶

stuff. And these were outfit. They had these cylinders on the front right here that would

[0:21:51 - 0:21:56] ▶

without, you know, come to find out it's actually auction and supply.

[0:21:57 - 0:22:00] ▶

Yeah. So draw those cylinders. Okay. So I'm going to draw, I'm going to black it out completely,

[0:22:00 - 0:22:05] ▶

because the cylinder itself was black and that's why. And initially when you saw this,

[0:22:05 - 0:22:10] ▶

you hypothesized this might be humidity control for something like drugs, right? That's what I

[0:22:10 - 0:22:15] ▶

testified to Arrow. Because I didn't think it was people. That wasn't in my, in my thought process

[0:22:15 - 0:22:22] ▶

at the time. And we'll talk about Arrow in a little bit. But so you testified to Arrow before you

[0:22:22 - 0:22:27] ▶

did the NPC in June of 2023. Okay. Yep. That was, I had testified last year to Arrow. It was late April.

[0:22:27 - 0:22:36] ▶

Okay. Late April 2023. Yep.

[0:22:36 - 0:22:39] ▶

All right. So that's kind of the view that that's really.

[0:22:44 - 0:22:46] ▶

So and then obviously the side view. So cylinders basically spanning the whole width of the

[0:22:48 - 0:22:55] ▶

container. Okay. It was a small one. It's a whole width. Correct. All right. So here's where the

[0:22:55 - 0:23:01] ▶

tires would be from the side profile of that trailer. Of course there was no white wheels.

[0:23:01 - 0:23:08] ▶

It was all black. I remember seeing kind of the back.

[0:23:08 - 0:23:12] ▶

Okay. And then this container right here.

[0:23:17 - 0:23:19] ▶

This is the cylinder from the side view. Okay.

[0:23:20 - 0:23:28] ▶

Truck bed right here. How many trucks total do you remember seeing?

[0:23:30 - 0:23:34] ▶

Ah, four. Four. And did each one also have weapons grates or just

[0:23:34 - 0:23:38] ▶

the same? Yes. Each one of them had these what you would call public in cases.

[0:23:38 - 0:23:42] ▶

Okay. But just weapons cases is what they definitely look like.

[0:23:42 - 0:23:46] ▶

Where the case is opened closed closed. Okay.

[0:23:46 - 0:23:49] ▶

And the windows are remember being kind of dark. So could you recall any other operators or people

[0:23:54 - 0:23:59] ▶

in the trucks besides just the drivers? I remember one truck that went on the platform

[0:23:59 - 0:24:05] ▶

and now the door at least some of the doors open. I can't recall.

[0:24:05 - 0:24:09] ▶

Were there any people standing on the platforms? Okay. I don't remember. But I

[0:24:10 - 0:24:14] ▶

don't remember seeing people on the platforms.

[0:24:15 - 0:24:18] ▶

So that is kind of and these are black of course. So that's a side view of what

[0:24:19 - 0:24:25] ▶

that is right. Okay. Which I mean obviously these were black. The shipping container was black.

[0:24:26 - 0:24:32] ▶

Everything like that. The other profile I'm going to draw is going to be from the rear.

[0:24:32 - 0:24:36] ▶

Did each truck have a shipping container? It's that's good. Okay.

[0:24:36 - 0:24:39] ▶

So here's a container right here. Remember seeing the bars?

[0:24:40 - 0:24:44] ▶

Patch doors on the back. Yep. Like this.

[0:24:44 - 0:24:46] ▶

Okay. Can't really see the cylinder at this point but just indicated it being there.

[0:24:47 - 0:24:52] ▶

You also said that they were about to record? Yeah. I mean it's so

[0:24:58 - 0:25:04] ▶

what did you mean by that? So they looked a little beefier, thicker material. You know what I mean?

[0:25:04 - 0:25:08] ▶

Like they look like they'd be bullet resistant. Okay.

[0:25:08 - 0:25:11] ▶

Because they look I mean you can see a regular truck and they kind of like okay it's a regular truck

[0:25:11 - 0:25:15] ▶

but these look like they were reinforced. Kind of like a secret service car. Yeah to an extent but

[0:25:15 - 0:25:21] ▶

all right. So there's a container like that

[0:25:23 - 0:25:25] ▶

which we're not elevated but this is just a put perspective of

[0:25:28 - 0:25:31] ▶

of the truck and just so how we were seeing it from the back.

[0:25:32 - 0:25:37] ▶

That's the only views that I remember seeing these trucks. Because you were in front of the

[0:25:38 - 0:25:43] ▶

craft and they kind of came out in a little bit of a circle. The left side like this and then went

[0:25:43 - 0:25:46] ▶

on that direction. Okay. It wasn't like they went straight and they were going up to that

[0:25:46 - 0:25:50] ▶

platform. Okay so you see the craft you're basically getting weapons checked, weapons stripped

[0:25:50 - 0:25:55] ▶

from this team. What happens then? So they're going through each of us taking our stuff,

[0:25:55 - 0:25:59] ▶

they take our magazines out of our pouches and they kick them off. They got one guy off in the

[0:25:59 - 0:26:03] ▶

distance that I remember was a standoff distance like more than 10 feet. So obviously we try to run

[0:26:03 - 0:26:08] ▶

and grab our stuff and he's just going to light us up if he wanted to. Did he have a different

[0:26:08 - 0:26:12] ▶

rifle platform to the main guys? So same load out with all of them. They all had the same stuff.

[0:26:12 - 0:26:17] ▶

Yeah they had the same kind of I mean they may have different attachments but I remember most of

[0:26:17 - 0:26:21] ▶

the parts seeing eight cogs on each one of them with the PEC 16 illuminators on those. This is

[0:26:21 - 0:26:27] ▶

what I remember seeing. One thing I've always been curious about. Did you notice any of them like

[0:26:27 - 0:26:33] ▶

talking on the radio to some guy? I had a radio and I don't remember him talking to anybody. I

[0:26:34 - 0:26:38] ▶

just remember seeing it and with the antenna coming up that he had pressed to his vest.

[0:26:38 - 0:26:42] ▶

But he was a main guy that was kind of telling people what to do. Yeah. And he was mainly the one

[0:26:43 - 0:26:48] ▶

besides another guy that was you know and shit it out. It was like you will fucking kill you.

[0:26:48 - 0:26:51] ▶

You know it's easy to get lost out here. Did it seem like you know when they intercepted you guys

[0:26:51 - 0:26:58] ▶

obviously there was there were there were other guys and the trucks doing their thing.

[0:26:58 - 0:27:02] ▶

Did you have the impression that like all of a sudden they were like oh shit we need to wrap

[0:27:03 - 0:27:09] ▶

this up and get out or were they kind of just not really even caring about this. I don't think

[0:27:09 - 0:27:13] ▶

they were kind of caring was they may have not even saw what was going on they could have. I mean

[0:27:13 - 0:27:17] ▶

I don't know that speculation at this point. Yeah clearly we're getting to

[0:27:17 - 0:27:22] ▶

speculation there. But yeah it's like I also think about the fact that this you know the earthquake

[0:27:22 - 0:27:29] ▶

you know the whole reason this operation was there was because there was an earthquake on

[0:27:30 - 0:27:34] ▶

it was the end of or the first of September or end of October. It was the end of September and

[0:27:34 - 0:27:41] ▶

I think it was September 30th if I'm not mistaken don't call me on that. Yeah yeah no I think

[0:27:42 - 0:27:47] ▶

that's I think that's correct so and then you know the Denver shows up on the 9th.

[0:27:47 - 0:27:53] ▶

So we're you know 9 10 days after the initial earthquake and you know just you know obviously

[0:27:55 - 0:28:01] ▶

speculation here but it's like it kind of seems weird that why would this operation be occurring

[0:28:01 - 0:28:07] ▶

9 days after the earthquake you know of course afterwards you've kind of been told like what

[0:28:07 - 0:28:15] ▶

that operation was all about and you know recruiting people in disaster struck in areas.

[0:28:15 - 0:28:21] ▶

But who's to say that was like maybe they had been conducting those same operations all week long.

[0:28:22 - 0:28:28] ▶

They could have been they could have been and believe me those are some questions I've asked

[0:28:28 - 0:28:33] ▶

some of these gentlemen that I'm working with and they you know they don't know because everything's

[0:28:33 - 0:28:38] ▶

compartmentalized. I'm hoping one day maybe one of them that I come across does know because I'm

[0:28:38 - 0:28:43] ▶

going to ask him a lot of questions because I mean I mean just like anybody listening or watching

[0:28:43 - 0:28:50] ▶

to this or anybody who's wants this to come out and come forward I'm 100% with them I want this

[0:28:50 - 0:28:55] ▶

to come full circle just like anybody else I'm just as impatient the only difference that separates

[0:28:55 - 0:29:00] ▶

me from anybody else is the experience but also having knowledge of what's going on to an

[0:29:00 - 0:29:05] ▶

extent at least with what I've been exposed to. I just have a little bit more information. So you

[0:29:05 - 0:29:10] ▶

get to the point you know they're threatening you they give you your weapons back and tell you to go

[0:29:10 - 0:29:17] ▶

you know back back up the hill don't go back when you get to the top of the hill what do you see

[0:29:17 - 0:29:25] ▶

happening at the LZ. I just remember me because I remember once we broke the top and all of a

[0:29:25 - 0:29:32] ▶

sudden I remember seeing some of our guys just start running so I'm following suit with them right

[0:29:32 - 0:29:36] ▶

because if anything's going to happen to us it's going to get the attention of everybody else

[0:29:36 - 0:29:40] ▶

and I remember seeing some people but it wasn't like it was like close up. I just remember when

[0:29:41 - 0:29:48] ▶

we ran back we had our weapons strapped to our back that were very tight, uncomfortably tight

[0:29:48 - 0:29:54] ▶

right because it's compressing your vest and remember having a gash on my right part of my neck

[0:29:54 - 0:30:01] ▶

because we had like a yoke or like a collar on our vest and remember then when they put that

[0:30:01 - 0:30:05] ▶

through that it actually kind of the slings we had weren't the best quality and they not soft

[0:30:05 - 0:30:11] ▶

they're plastic and polymer whatever it is or cloth whatever materially make out of them and

[0:30:12 - 0:30:18] ▶

it's very hard so it kind of cuts you up a little bit and then I remember us getting back there

[0:30:18 - 0:30:24] ▶

and I remember seeing a couple people off in the distance as far as some villagers or whoever

[0:30:24 - 0:30:30] ▶

those civilians were and there was some other military personnel I don't remember them being

[0:30:30 - 0:30:35] ▶

Marines I don't remember what they may have been the the Indonesian military could have been there

[0:30:35 - 0:30:41] ▶

but they were still off kind of at a distance compared to where we were at and there was this

[0:30:42 - 0:30:47] ▶

gunnery sergeant that was there and I've never seen this guy before I don't know if he was

[0:30:47 - 0:30:51] ▶

attached to the ship I don't know if he was brought by any other means I have never seen this guy

[0:30:51 - 0:30:55] ▶

before now gunnery sergeant you know you recognize it because you see his ring right now gunnery sergeant

[0:30:55 - 0:31:03] ▶

that ring is is specific to the Marines isn't that correct okay so when you when you speculate

[0:31:03 - 0:31:10] ▶

that maybe he was assigned to the ship or attached to the ship I think you kind of say what do you

[0:31:10 - 0:31:15] ▶

mean by that like how they each ship if they're from my understanding I'm again I don't know 100

[0:31:15 - 0:31:22] ▶

percent but from my understanding there are some ships that have like a combat loading group or

[0:31:22 - 0:31:29] ▶

somebody who's basically loading Marines stuff onto a ship I don't know the specific I can't

[0:31:29 - 0:31:34] ▶

remember what it's called they also have some Marines that are red patches they have a red patch

[0:31:34 - 0:31:39] ▶

on their on their cover and then they have red patches on some of their I think on their blouse

[0:31:39 - 0:31:44] ▶

they have some on their their shoulder pocket and some on their cargo pockets and this guy didn't

[0:31:44 - 0:31:50] ▶

have those I thought I can recall anyway he may have he may not have I don't remember but I remember

[0:31:50 - 0:31:57] ▶

this rank because obviously it was a little hard to see it because woodlands have black shapes and

[0:31:57 - 0:32:03] ▶

sometimes at the storestatt and if you end up calling somebody by the wrong rank you get to pay

[0:32:03 - 0:32:07] ▶

for it with pushups or get screamed at right so which honestly if I was in that position I would

[0:32:07 - 0:32:13] ▶

scream to people and try to fuck with them too for getting my rank wrong so it happens but

[0:32:13 - 0:32:19] ▶

when you when you ran back to the LZ you were running towards a helicopter no okay a helicopter

[0:32:20 - 0:32:29] ▶

was not there yet okay so so he had he had a radio that he was talking with okay and he was

[0:32:29 - 0:32:35] ▶

communicating with or whatever the pilots or whoever it was so what happened when we got there he

[0:32:35 - 0:32:41] ▶

kind of like first of all for security why do we have our weapons slung on her back that's

[0:32:41 - 0:32:47] ▶

how to place no marines going to have that going on when and that's where I think he was mainly

[0:32:47 - 0:32:52] ▶

more upset with was because that we were supposed to be our weapons proper no magazines in you know

[0:32:52 - 0:32:59] ▶

which obviously they put our stuff in but they put it into where it be very inconvenient to try

[0:32:59 - 0:33:03] ▶

to load it up and then go deal with it so I think that thinking back to that I think that that's

[0:33:03 - 0:33:10] ▶

mainly why he was upset was because okay well you guys look fucked up as mainly with his what I

[0:33:10 - 0:33:17] ▶

would assume right I'm just speculating at that point but I remember us stepping off to the side

[0:33:17 - 0:33:24] ▶

off in a distance a little bit and we're basically squaring ourselves up we're taking our weapons off

[0:33:25 - 0:33:30] ▶

and to offer each other giving it to us putting a magazine and having to

[0:33:30 - 0:33:34] ▶

resume the normal carry and so this gunnery sergeant is standing just in the clearing where the

[0:33:35 - 0:33:40] ▶

LZ where you guys were dropped off correct was he surrounded by a platoon of marines or was

[0:33:40 - 0:33:44] ▶

just this gunnery just him and other people other people off in the distance so they may have linked

[0:33:44 - 0:33:49] ▶

up and then he probably told him go away or whatever he was doing I have no clue and then because he

[0:33:49 - 0:33:54] ▶

was on the radio that's when CH 53 came in and picked everybody up now on the CH 53 did you

[0:33:54 - 0:34:00] ▶

recognize the pilot was this the same helicopter that dropped you off I don't recall

[0:34:00 - 0:34:04] ▶

I just remember seeing a CH 53 and that's when it landed and we just boarded up on that thing

[0:34:05 - 0:34:10] ▶

I don't remember I mean obviously our point of view I don't remember looking at a pilot I never

[0:34:10 - 0:34:15] ▶

had a chance to and it's the same thing with this I don't know specifically who was flying or what

[0:34:15 - 0:34:20] ▶

and so nobody said to the gunnery sergeant what you what you guys just experienced yeah okay

[0:34:20 - 0:34:24] ▶

so you came to the LZ you got off the helicopter that helicopter left you go to the top at a

[0:34:25 - 0:34:30] ▶

certain point a second helicopter comes at a different location right drops off supplies yes

[0:34:30 - 0:34:37] ▶

was that the what that had a cargo net yes it did yep because I took pictures and video of that

[0:34:37 - 0:34:42] ▶

coming that helicopter is is dropping that net and you're that's when you crest the hill yeah you

[0:34:42 - 0:34:52] ▶

know kind of at some point there you crest the hill to go investigate the craft yeah you come back

[0:34:52 - 0:34:59] ▶

that helicopter is now gone that's what I'm assuming is it dropped a cargo off and then they may have

[0:34:59 - 0:35:06] ▶

landed and let people out but by the time I mean that's by the time you came back there was now

[0:35:06 - 0:35:11] ▶

helicopter that was there okay no that helicopter was gone but then there was obviously the supplies

[0:35:11 - 0:35:16] ▶

that they had they had dropped off off of the distance so did you see do you remember seeing what

[0:35:16 - 0:35:21] ▶

was happening with any of that like where they're I remember seeing people over there but and it

[0:35:21 - 0:35:25] ▶

could have been supplies I mean but they were off at a good distance and so where the where the

[0:35:25 - 0:35:29] ▶

gunnery sergeant was he was he near some supplies to he had if I can recall there could have been

[0:35:29 - 0:35:36] ▶

some boxes or something he was messing with that was there there may have been boxes I don't really

[0:35:36 - 0:35:42] ▶

recall I mean why like would he have even is there is there like a chance that like he didn't

[0:35:42 - 0:35:52] ▶

even know you guys were there and he was like could have been the case what the hell is you got

[0:35:52 - 0:35:57] ▶

like where are you guys coming from what's going on it could have it could have been the case I mean

[0:35:57 - 0:36:00] ▶

like I said I don't I I really don't know yeah it's speculation and but I just remember seeing a

[0:36:00 - 0:36:06] ▶

gunnery sergeant there who's like you guys look fucked up and you know he was yelling at us for

[0:36:06 - 0:36:11] ▶

that reason so and so from from the period of time from that period of time to when you've left

[0:36:11 - 0:36:17] ▶

the LZ you were basically just doing what just like hanging around waiting yep for the helicopter

[0:36:17 - 0:36:23] ▶

to yeah and we're just kind of walking around you know by ourselves of course trying to make it look

[0:36:23 - 0:36:27] ▶

like we have the like we're secure in the area okay so you kind of resume that role of

[0:36:27 - 0:36:32] ▶

of see you know through our heads we're going like what the fuck just happened guys were you guys

[0:36:32 - 0:36:37] ▶

discussing this amongst yourselves there was everybody pretty stone cold we were stone cold like

[0:36:37 - 0:36:41] ▶

we nobody wanted to talk about was there any point that you guys discussed it with you when we

[0:36:41 - 0:36:45] ▶

got in town to subit bay I only question I had asked one of them was are you going to say anything

[0:36:45 - 0:36:54] ▶

about this or tell your wife and he goes absolutely not and that's literally it and have you

[0:36:54 - 0:36:59] ▶

encouraged these fellow marines you're with to come forward and tell their story to no okay

[0:36:59 - 0:37:04] ▶

they're not happy with me for obvious reasons I don't blame them this wasn't something that

[0:37:05 - 0:37:11] ▶

you know I try to get one of them to help me with this to an extent and his response which

[0:37:11 - 0:37:16] ▶

everybody has seen publicly was kind of the indicator that something did happen that something was wrong

[0:37:16 - 0:37:22] ▶

and that's for people who don't know the text that was featured in the daily mail article that

[0:37:22 - 0:37:26] ▶

basically says leave me out that was when I had members of the senate intelligence committee asking

[0:37:26 - 0:37:31] ▶

me to have some and to message one of them that I was still in contact with seeing if he could

[0:37:31 - 0:37:39] ▶

tell anything anonymously to them which they already know who he is I've already provided everybody

[0:37:39 - 0:37:44] ▶

the names to these guys among the Pentagon arrow they'll have that do you know if they've been

[0:37:44 - 0:37:50] ▶

contacted by senate intelligence committee or anything that's not that I'm aware because I'm

[0:37:50 - 0:37:54] ▶

pretty sure I would have gotten so probably yelled at or or fuck you or something yeah so you

[0:37:54 - 0:38:01] ▶

guys get picked picked up by the CH 53 superstar you return to the USS Denver correct how long what

[0:38:01 - 0:38:07] ▶

would you say the time elapsed was from the second you were in the chow hall approached by the

[0:38:07 - 0:38:11] ▶

major to returning to the ship when they get approached by the major when there was in the chow hall

[0:38:11 - 0:38:16] ▶

that was other Marines that are people I don't remember specifically how that happened so she

[0:38:16 - 0:38:21] ▶

wasn't gathering everybody up these were higher up it could have been staff sergeants or sergeants

[0:38:21 - 0:38:27] ▶

or something it says hey you get you know you guys want to come with this or you know so whoever

[0:38:27 - 0:38:32] ▶

was at that point you know you're going to meet in the ward room at this time um and I don't

[0:38:32 - 0:38:37] ▶

remember the specifics of time I don't remember who told us I mean that's just it's so long ago

[0:38:37 - 0:38:41] ▶

yeah but it's just how it will look kind of right and it wasn't anybody in my typical chain of

[0:38:41 - 0:38:45] ▶

command which was you know because obviously they were kind of more the hey you guys are needed for

[0:38:45 - 0:38:50] ▶

this and these were just mission volunteers not and selected like strong operatives or

[0:38:50 - 0:38:55] ▶

no they were just randomly put us in sticks okay that's all you remember them kind of organizing

[0:38:55 - 0:39:00] ▶

your in this stick you guys are in this stick so it wasn't like it was something that was very

[0:39:00 - 0:39:04] ▶

well planned or they based off your skill center would chain a command or whatever this was yeah so like

[0:39:04 - 0:39:09] ▶

I think we can kind of go chronologically through like your experience in Indonesia um so like

[0:39:10 - 0:39:16] ▶

the first thing I'm wondering is like what what did the typical day look like for you on the Denver

[0:39:16 - 0:39:21] ▶

on the ship yeah like when you were when you were like on route to Indonesia like I know you were

[0:39:21 - 0:39:26] ▶

assigned to the officer's chow like what would kind of a typical day look like for you just like

[0:39:26 - 0:39:32] ▶

on the ship so typically what if I can recall this accurately I mean because every day blends

[0:39:32 - 0:39:37] ▶

together in this yeah it was like 15 years ago this point so I mean you typically go to have

[0:39:37 - 0:39:44] ▶

revelry everybody to get up but obviously we'd get up early because we were either help them with

[0:39:44 - 0:39:48] ▶

breakfast and having to serve up that and at least you know which there's it's not like we were

[0:39:48 - 0:39:54] ▶

just serving food because we didn't do that we were just more I think um trying to set stuff up

[0:39:54 - 0:39:59] ▶

try to clean stuff you know so the cooks actually took actual good care of their job because they're

[0:39:59 - 0:40:06] ▶

working for the officers which is great so they want to take pride in what they do we got to eat

[0:40:06 - 0:40:12] ▶

really good because of it compared to what the other guys got to eat so that was always good so um

[0:40:12 - 0:40:18] ▶

just kind of like a full-time job like that assignment was was kind of like correct report for

[0:40:18 - 0:40:23] ▶

doing officers chow it was like a eight hour shift type of thing yeah yeah was it okay

[0:40:23 - 0:40:28] ▶

and sometimes they cut you like with a break so you could either go which I went to the gym on ship

[0:40:28 - 0:40:33] ▶

or went back and then slept for a bit or whatever it is um so there's always things that you can do

[0:40:33 - 0:40:39] ▶

because when they task you to work on to that that's where you're spending your time yeah so me

[0:40:39 - 0:40:44] ▶

so how does it work with you know especially for me because like I don't have any you know military

[0:40:44 - 0:40:50] ▶

experience um you know you have like a chain of command that you're a part of you know as a marine

[0:40:50 - 0:40:58] ▶

but I know there's you know when you're on the ship you've you've described kind of like it's

[0:40:58 - 0:41:03] ▶

like a separate chain of command or like correct because what who you're reporting to or like the

[0:41:03 - 0:41:07] ▶

Marines that are in charge of that part of the Marines that are on the ship with the logistics

[0:41:07 - 0:41:11] ▶

yeah all they basically did was say hey your number's been picked you're gonna go over here while

[0:41:11 - 0:41:16] ▶

you're on ship which is great yeah because like I said we got to have fun doing it we got to eat

[0:41:16 - 0:41:20] ▶

better than everybody else you know so it was something that I enjoyed doing because I got to eat

[0:41:20 - 0:41:26] ▶

to and all the time I got better I got all the good stuff we got t-bone steak so everybody else got

[0:41:26 - 0:41:30] ▶

the little time to cut some we got full t-bones yeah so you would work in Shao with people that weren't

[0:41:30 - 0:41:36] ▶

necessarily a near immediate team or put in just random people on the ship whose numbers were

[0:41:36 - 0:41:39] ▶

called for same duty yeah well me it wasn't really a number basis they just selected whoever

[0:41:39 - 0:41:44] ▶

whatever amount they needed they've all told us to you know this is what you're gonna do

[0:41:45 - 0:41:51] ▶

and typically during that I do remember deploying at least being forward deployed to Japan a couple

[0:41:51 - 0:41:59] ▶

weeks to I think a month before the whole main element did because they got us ready and we

[0:41:59 - 0:42:04] ▶

want to ship before everybody else did too because we're obviously working this detail so they have to

[0:42:04 - 0:42:10] ▶

kind of read read you up on things show you how to do things and then when the whole thing kicks

[0:42:10 - 0:42:14] ▶

off get on ship and everybody's just yeah you know so for weeks we were on ship with nobody else

[0:42:14 - 0:42:21] ▶

in our birthing which was cool too yeah so they're trying to figure out where Marines were being

[0:42:21 - 0:42:25] ▶

assigned to if that makes sense now so when you got you know you spoke about getting briefed in

[0:42:25 - 0:42:32] ▶

the ward room that that was where you were assigned so how did that exactly go down like where you

[0:42:32 - 0:42:38] ▶

like in the middle of you know working in the kitchen and then you just heard someone call out like

[0:42:39 - 0:42:43] ▶

you know hey we need some volunteers was it I think it was that I don't remember that part

[0:42:43 - 0:42:48] ▶

specifically yeah I just remember the key things I remember who briefed us yeah which was a female

[0:42:48 - 0:42:54] ▶

major and then they were putting up pictures of Obama when he was a kid's hand there was family

[0:42:54 - 0:42:59] ▶

members were there so the things that really stuck out of place I were kind of whatever remember

[0:42:59 - 0:43:03] ▶

mostly now did you you actually brought this up earlier had you ever seen that woman before like

[0:43:03 - 0:43:10] ▶

was she dressed in navy you South she was in she was in our Marpat woodlands okay so you

[0:43:10 - 0:43:17] ▶

SMC okay and the other people who were kind of brought to volunteer with you were they in the

[0:43:17 - 0:43:22] ▶

mess all with you when the major comes in and requesting volunteers there's yes some of them

[0:43:22 - 0:43:28] ▶

okay all of them but some of them and so at this time like you're a immediate squad team leader the

[0:43:28 - 0:43:33] ▶

other people you're with they're doing other duties on the ship they're doing with whatever the

[0:43:33 - 0:43:37] ▶

units doing okay typically so that's how that works mm-hmm now we weren't in a combat situation

[0:43:37 - 0:43:43] ▶

so that's why that it was a little bit different because it's more relaxed now if this was something

[0:43:43 - 0:43:49] ▶

it was combat oriented then they really wouldn't pull us off to do anything like this because we'd

[0:43:49 - 0:43:54] ▶

be training and doing whatever we had to do with our unit right because I know there's a lot of

[0:43:54 - 0:43:58] ▶

questions about like team leaders and so forth so when you're on an active mission with a team

[0:43:58 - 0:44:03] ▶

leader you'd be with them like glue but on ships you're assigned to your actual duties and so

[0:44:03 - 0:44:08] ▶

for and it also kind of depends on what details you're doing okay so I mean it's not like that for

[0:44:08 - 0:44:13] ▶

everybody there's people yeah you have an acting team leader who's just a guy fills that billet

[0:44:13 - 0:44:17] ▶

he could be somebody else that's not in our instance was in our platoon or squad or anything

[0:44:18 - 0:44:22] ▶

like that so like what kind of typical like check-in would you have to do with any superior

[0:44:22 - 0:44:28] ▶

while the ship when we would report to that they'd obviously kind of take roll call make sure

[0:44:28 - 0:44:34] ▶

everybody was there and then that's pretty much it okay it wasn't I mean because really it's not

[0:44:34 - 0:44:38] ▶

like rocket science for example yeah so you know but it was you also reported to a navy

[0:44:38 - 0:44:44] ▶

personnel too because they're the ones that you're typically helping and assisting

[0:44:44 - 0:44:48] ▶

part of the ship correct so they have more kind of what you would call a higher bill at that point

[0:44:48 - 0:44:52] ▶

because it's their ship yeah that makes a lot of sense because that's really helpful just from

[0:44:52 - 0:44:57] ▶

someone who's not you know military that provides a lot of context now so during the actual briefing

[0:44:57 - 0:45:04] ▶

that you were given about the the mission that you were about to partake on were there other

[0:45:04 - 0:45:11] ▶

people in the ward room during that briefing or was it so like there could potentially be

[0:45:11 - 0:45:16] ▶

bystanders that kind of overhook it or overheard you know the mission briefing essentially

[0:45:17 - 0:45:23] ▶

so anybody who was in there were some key leaders but there was also some other

[0:45:23 - 0:45:28] ▶

NGOs there were a lot of people I didn't know so I just think that you know could potentially be

[0:45:28 - 0:45:33] ▶

witnesses that would have you know seen you seen the briefing if they remember yeah

[0:45:33 - 0:45:39] ▶

I mean right you know I mean I like I said I don't remember anybody else besides some of the

[0:45:39 - 0:45:44] ▶

guys but I just remember the thing that stuck out was a female major because she was beautiful

[0:45:44 - 0:45:49] ▶

yeah so my that's you know of course you're on ship you're like man there's a lot of women around

[0:45:49 - 0:45:54] ▶

yeah so there was that and then obviously the whole thing with Obama you really don't see anything

[0:45:54 - 0:45:59] ▶

like that is not something you're really briefed on most of the time so I wanted to show this to you

[0:45:59 - 0:46:04] ▶

does this look like what that word would look like I was trying to find a picture of like the

[0:46:04 - 0:46:11] ▶

actual Denver yeah that would that is a different ship but it's the same you know the same class

[0:46:11 - 0:46:18] ▶

yeah and from what I can recall because they had a wall where the projector was hitting and

[0:46:19 - 0:46:25] ▶

that's where they were again but that's kind of similar at least from this view yeah I mean but

[0:46:25 - 0:46:29] ▶

then again it looks a lot like other ward rooms that were on other ships that had been well just

[0:46:29 - 0:46:33] ▶

to get a general idea of the size like yeah like for me thinking like cafeteria because

[0:46:33 - 0:46:37] ▶

award room is essentially a cafeteria yeah it's just like a smaller because obviously yeah correct yeah

[0:46:37 - 0:46:42] ▶

so it's kind of a more small yeah intimate kind of set of correct what else can you remember from

[0:46:42 - 0:46:49] ▶

this briefing what was the mission operation directive what was the mission time I don't remember

[0:46:49 - 0:46:54] ▶

any of those fine details just because one it's been a long time but two the only the only

[0:46:54 - 0:47:03] ▶

things I can recall is literally the female major briefing us and then pictures of Obama when he

[0:47:03 - 0:47:10] ▶

was a kid his parents just stuff that really stuck out yeah and I actually found evidence of you

[0:47:10 - 0:47:16] ▶

know Obama he spent a lot of time in Indonesia when he was a child and that's all that's all public

[0:47:16 - 0:47:23] ▶

knowledge so it's interesting that they they had included that but I mean like just overall like

[0:47:23 - 0:47:29] ▶

in general what was your understanding of like what you guys were about to go security security yeah

[0:47:29 - 0:47:35] ▶

but I think it was there was a delivery of supplies yeah yeah go to it to a remote village you

[0:47:35 - 0:47:41] ▶

know there's plenty of evidence that says that the right helicopter the heavy lift helicopters

[0:47:41 - 0:47:46] ▶

the super stallions on the Denver were specifically going to be tasked to go to remote villages because

[0:47:46 - 0:47:51] ▶

you know roads were being blocked out by landslides and stuff and so you're saying security for

[0:47:51 - 0:47:57] ▶

the elevator yeah yeah I mean because what the whole point in this isn't something that just

[0:47:58 - 0:48:05] ▶

even what that female major was saying yeah but it's just even the fact that everybody knows

[0:48:05 - 0:48:09] ▶

that this is the second largest terrorist capital in the world and very there's a very

[0:48:09 - 0:48:13] ▶

a Muslim dominant area you know what I mean so there's people that typically aren't going to be

[0:48:13 - 0:48:18] ▶

very friendly of us and that's kind of the first concern they were having why they did things the

[0:48:18 - 0:48:22] ▶

way they did I don't know I didn't plan it I wasn't in charge with that so there's things that

[0:48:22 - 0:48:27] ▶

even I have questions or it's like why would you do that yeah and what was the protocol after the

[0:48:28 - 0:48:33] ▶

briefing were you immediately ordered to go to an armory locker check out weapons and ammunition

[0:48:33 - 0:48:38] ▶

and report to the super stallions so all they told us to do is basically get so they got all our stuff

[0:48:38 - 0:48:45] ▶

and we went to the armory to draw what and they already had weapons picked for us because that was

[0:48:45 - 0:48:52] ▶

a saw gun yeah so we don't they didn't we're not using a saw for for this type of ordeal you know

[0:48:52 - 0:48:57] ▶

because it's not you're going not going into combat so that's how I remember because I was a

[0:48:57 - 0:49:01] ▶

saw gunner I never really was issued in m16 I first time I when I got there was actually issued a

[0:49:01 - 0:49:07] ▶

203 with an m16 a4 and that was with golf company and they said that the reason why

[0:49:07 - 0:49:13] ▶

they wanted me to do that was because I was the boot and they're looking for the people with

[0:49:14 - 0:49:19] ▶

the grenade launcher because they know it's a team leader so meaning that enemy's going to target you

[0:49:19 - 0:49:24] ▶

so which I mean was it was cool because I'm like I get to carry a grenade launcher but then I

[0:49:24 - 0:49:28] ▶

like the saw because it's a belt-fed automatic weapon and I like that better and so naturally being

[0:49:28 - 0:49:36] ▶

used to m16 it sucked because I like having a machine gun yeah full auto yeah and I eat so

[0:49:36 - 0:49:42] ▶

you know the the whole idea of you providing security you know initially a lot of people

[0:49:43 - 0:49:48] ▶

would say like oh that's baloney like no one would have weapons on a humanitarian mission because

[0:49:49 - 0:49:53] ▶

really the the the overall operation was humanitarian relief deliverer and supplies and people

[0:49:53 - 0:49:59] ▶

like oh you never have weapons but I found a rear admiral Richard Landolt who's the rear admiral

[0:49:59 - 0:50:06] ▶

who debriefed you after your mission on the ship um he actually did a sort of like a press conference

[0:50:06 - 0:50:13] ▶

briefing and I'll just read a part of the quote here um so once the 53s came aboard on the

[0:50:13 - 0:50:21] ▶

morning of the 9th of October we put them to work first getting survey teams out to the countryside

[0:50:21 - 0:50:26] ▶

to see where would be the best locations to drop the cargo that we wanted to get there and also

[0:50:26 - 0:50:32] ▶

to get people in place because when these helicopters start showing up with cargo the first concern

[0:50:32 - 0:50:37] ▶

is crowd control you know so you don't want people you know rushing the helicopters and another

[0:50:37 - 0:50:44] ▶

little interesting thing that kind of supports this that I found was um photographs from the 9th

[0:50:44 - 0:50:50] ▶

the 10th of the Indonesian military um because you know there were there was also Indonesian

[0:50:50 - 0:50:56] ▶

military doing relief as well and there's a picture of the helicopter in a whole bunch of

[0:50:56 - 0:51:02] ▶

locals just like all over the helicopter just like mobbing it totally makes sense that uh you know

[0:51:02 - 0:51:09] ▶

there would be you know a mission like that to to provide security and not to mention we've

[0:51:09 - 0:51:14] ▶

you know at this point have found numerous photographs of uh people of of of of marines doing

[0:51:14 - 0:51:20] ▶

exactly that they have rifles and we're you know providing security around the helicopters right

[0:51:20 - 0:51:26] ▶

well I mean security is needed so it's common sense at that point you know as much as people

[0:51:26 - 0:51:31] ▶

would say in the military or at least in the Marine Corps common sense is not common virtue but

[0:51:31 - 0:51:35] ▶

you still got to protect and have a barrier between everybody else because second largest

[0:51:35 - 0:51:39] ▶

terrorist capital in the world there's also desperate people who are desperate to do anything for help

[0:51:39 - 0:51:43] ▶

and uh you have that combination of things that can get pretty tricky thankfully we didn't have

[0:51:44 - 0:51:49] ▶

that but thankfully um I would have rather have experienced that compared to what we did experience

[0:51:49 - 0:51:56] ▶

right yeah so now do you remember uh do you remember which day you did your mission i don't recall

[0:51:56 - 0:52:04] ▶

specifically the day that's kind of what i'm having trouble with i don't know if it was the 9th

[0:52:04 - 0:52:09] ▶

of the 10th so the ship arrived so there's a little bit of discrepancy on the exact date and i

[0:52:09 - 0:52:14] ▶

think it comes down to the time zone of like whatever press organization reported it um but

[0:52:14 - 0:52:20] ▶

like for instance right in this uh testimony from from the rear admiral you know he says the 9th

[0:52:21 - 0:52:26] ▶

so it seems like it was like early morning on the 9th or like late at night on the 8th um so was it

[0:52:27 - 0:52:35] ▶

like do you remember it being the very first day that the ship arrived oh so i mean we never really

[0:52:35 - 0:52:40] ▶

went topside yeah so i don't you know we're in the kitchen or yeah in the wardrobe or anything

[0:52:40 - 0:52:45] ▶

like that working so i don't remember specifically where the only thing i remember is them turning the

[0:52:45 - 0:52:52] ▶

phones off because they had these phone banks that you have on ship and they turn it off for

[0:52:52 - 0:52:56] ▶

about a couple weeks and uh because i was gonna call my dad and be like hey we're here you know but

[0:52:56 - 0:53:00] ▶

they don't they didn't want that so um i don't remember specifically the day i do remember that when

[0:53:00 - 0:53:07] ▶

we were on foot that it was had to have been somewhere um in their early afternoon or probably late

[0:53:07 - 0:53:14] ▶

morning that time frame i'm not entirely sure um i can't recall that i wish i could because then it

[0:53:14 - 0:53:21] ▶

can kind of pinpoint where things may have we can coordinate it somehow what at what point did

[0:53:21 - 0:53:28] ▶

you realize that you weren't gonna have radios i was on radio guys so that was that was in my

[0:53:28 - 0:53:33] ▶

thing so like wasn't even on your radar to like think oh oh do we have radios yeah because i'm

[0:53:33 - 0:53:38] ▶

not used to that i mean they trained us on the radios but it wasn't something that we ever really

[0:53:38 - 0:53:42] ▶

had i mean i wasn't a team leader or a squad leader at that point you know so i didn't have access

[0:53:42 - 0:53:47] ▶

to that and that wasn't a concern my concern was just what i was dealing with yeah so um i don't

[0:53:47 - 0:53:52] ▶

remember radios you know and the fact is is i don't remember seeing anybody have radios and the

[0:53:52 - 0:53:57] ▶

thing is it's a humanitarian mission it's not a combat operation you know so it's not like you're

[0:53:57 - 0:54:03] ▶

stepping out expecting you get into fire fights and things like that yeah just humanitarian so

[0:54:03 - 0:54:08] ▶

when you guys were gearing up for the mission you just thought whoever the designated kind of squad

[0:54:08 - 0:54:12] ▶

or team leader for this operation they would have something like that correct and i think there's

[0:54:12 - 0:54:16] ▶

been a lot of confusion about these points so this mission happened during one of your designated

[0:54:16 - 0:54:21] ▶

shifts in the chow hall with a team that was not your designated team leader okay correct somebody

[0:54:21 - 0:54:28] ▶

acting as a team leader you know so which happens you know in situations like this at least this is my

[0:54:28 - 0:54:34] ▶

experience i can't speak for everybody else but just with what i personally dealt with this is how

[0:54:34 - 0:54:39] ▶

it went for us now going back to the rifles um you know like i said at this point i found so

[0:54:39 - 0:54:46] ▶

much evidence that there were definitely Marines there with rifles however there were a lot of

[0:54:46 - 0:54:51] ▶

photographs of guys basically just providing labor you know moving boxes loading helicopters

[0:54:51 - 0:54:56] ▶

things like that and one thing that was interesting that i um learned from multiple platoon members

[0:54:56 - 0:55:03] ▶

that that i had reached out to and spoke spoke to um they told me that there was like this rumor that

[0:55:03 - 0:55:10] ▶

some of the first Marines that flew in had rifles and they got like chewed out by like an

[0:55:11 - 0:55:17] ▶

Air Force colonel and were told to like go back to the ship because it was like bad optics and

[0:55:17 - 0:55:23] ▶

i'm curious did you ever hear that rumor i don't remember ever seeing an Air Force colon yeah

[0:55:23 - 0:55:30] ▶

i don't remember seeing Air Force Lieutenant Colonel which everybody knows about that so

[0:55:30 - 0:55:34] ▶

but as far as a Air Force colonel i don't i don't understand how an Air Force colonel would have

[0:55:34 - 0:55:37] ▶

jurisdiction over that kind of operation anyway yeah he wouldn't be in a role to tell Marines that

[0:55:37 - 0:55:43] ▶

they have to go back to a ship that's somebody else yeah i found that i found that odd as well but

[0:55:43 - 0:55:48] ▶

i you know i didn't know you know not not i could i could understand a navy full bird captain or

[0:55:48 - 0:55:54] ▶

or a uh marine colonel for that matter he would have the authority to say something like that

[0:55:54 - 0:56:00] ▶

because what you're talking about is the money and the resources to get ex-amounted people from

[0:56:00 - 0:56:04] ▶

ship to shore so it's gonna just it's gonna cost money it's just gonna not make sense at that point so

[0:56:04 - 0:56:09] ▶

you got on the helicopter you flew to to tobing airport which it's not named that anymore but

[0:56:10 - 0:56:16] ▶

um you said that you never got off the helicopter at the airport it was basically just you know we

[0:56:16 - 0:56:21] ▶

landed and that's what i remember too and this is kind of what i was able to provide people because

[0:56:21 - 0:56:26] ▶

we'd never got off right and i can know that basically the direction of when we're fine off the ship

[0:56:26 - 0:56:31] ▶

that you can see the ocean and then you can start to see the land so it kind of tells you somewhat

[0:56:31 - 0:56:35] ▶

the direction of where you're heading all i remember from the airport that we landed on was that

[0:56:35 - 0:56:40] ▶

there was blue roofs yeah it's the only thing i can indicate out of that what i'm getting at is

[0:56:40 - 0:56:44] ▶

it's it's perfectly plausible if you guys you know didn't get off the helicopters it's perfectly

[0:56:44 - 0:56:50] ▶

plausible you could have landed there and not caused any sort of stir by walking around with rifles

[0:56:50 - 0:56:55] ▶

because you didn't get out get off the helicopter yeah we weren't we didn't so because i remember

[0:56:55 - 0:57:00] ▶

that too because we were sleeping yeah on a helicopter because that's what you do you know you get

[0:57:00 - 0:57:04] ▶

used to yeah in transport everywhere we did in seven tons uh a a v's helicopters all that fun

[0:57:04 - 0:57:10] ▶

stuff so you're just like i'm just getting a ride and you can fall asleep anywhere at this point

[0:57:10 - 0:57:14] ▶

so um and it's boring you know it's not like it's anything it's all just humanitarian you know

[0:57:14 - 0:57:20] ▶

we're hoping at that point that there would have been something but not in the indication of what

[0:57:20 - 0:57:24] ▶

we experienced but you know something outside of that so when we because what i do remember vaguely

[0:57:24 - 0:57:33] ▶

is when we landed on the air strip and i remember seeing other helicopters basically trail

[0:57:33 - 0:57:37] ▶

in behind us and land and then we were sitting there i don't remember the time or how long we

[0:57:37 - 0:57:44] ▶

were sitting there but i remember then us taking off do you know what kind of helicopters those were

[0:57:44 - 0:57:48] ▶

were they also 53s okay there may have been some 46s too i'm not entirely sure but i only remember

[0:57:48 - 0:57:56] ▶

the Denver and i only remember being on a ch 53 i don't remember any kind of other helicopters

[0:57:56 - 0:58:01] ▶

that were on that deck yeah i never really spent much time topside well the the only reason i

[0:58:01 - 0:58:07] ▶

bring that up is it's i'm wondering if those were the same helicopters that ended up following

[0:58:07 - 0:58:12] ▶

you guys to the lz you know because i know you you had said that there were other helicopters because

[0:58:13 - 0:58:17] ▶

there that could be paused as far as i know the super stallions were only the ones that came on the

[0:58:18 - 0:58:25] ▶

Denver like there weren't any additional superstars yeah i don't i don't remember you know i don't

[0:58:25 - 0:58:30] ▶

remember any of that right i mean i mean there's been plenty of ships that have been on where i

[0:58:30 - 0:58:34] ▶

remember seeing 46s um which are the dual the egg beaters if you will right i remember seeing

[0:58:34 - 0:58:40] ▶

plenty of those you know but um as far as the Denver i don't really recall that could have been

[0:58:40 - 0:58:44] ▶

it could have not been yeah i just don't know even if your mission happened after the point where

[0:58:44 - 0:58:52] ▶

those guys supposedly got yelled at for bringing rifles like it's plausible that you could have had

[0:58:52 - 0:58:57] ▶

your mission even after that point and just slip by unnoticed because you didn't get off the helicopter

[0:58:57 - 0:59:02] ▶

right you know um so the flight to the lz described the view that you have outside the back of the

[0:59:02 - 0:59:11] ▶

helicopter so coming from the airport i can remember just looking at the ocean and then we were

[0:59:11 - 0:59:18] ▶

getting remember seeing some very heavy vegetation and kind of like hills wasn't like flat with trees

[0:59:18 - 0:59:27] ▶

or bushes or anything it was like getting thicker and and was uh i remember seeing some hills not

[0:59:27 - 0:59:32] ▶

from the helicopter but because when you get off the bird they have one area where you can't go

[0:59:32 - 0:59:37] ▶

because you have this big tail rotor and you don't want to run underneath the the thing so they

[0:59:37 - 0:59:41] ▶

always say either i think it's go to the right or the left i can't remember but um whatever the

[0:59:41 - 0:59:46] ▶

whatever side that tail rotor is not on is where you're egressing helicopter and then basically you

[0:59:46 - 0:59:51] ▶

would form a uh a three sixty around the helicopter to provide that security and then you it take off

[0:59:51 - 0:59:57] ▶

and then you basically would get into formation and you'd patrol them from there um i don't really

[0:59:58 - 1:00:05] ▶

recall when i got off the helicopter when i really saw at that point um but i do remember seeing

[1:00:05 - 1:00:11] ▶

some hills and remember seeing some thick thick vegetation i don't remember if i saw any villagers

[1:00:11 - 1:00:16] ▶

other personnel or people there backing up just a step like when you guys were at the health at the

[1:00:17 - 1:00:22] ▶

airport did you guys were there any supplies loaded on the helicopter so this was strictly a

[1:00:22 - 1:00:27] ▶

personnel transport and were there any other people on the helicopter that were being taken to the

[1:00:27 - 1:00:32] ▶

LZ or was it just it was just us and then you have the crew chief and you have you know some other

[1:00:32 - 1:00:37] ▶

crew support and then the pilots obviously so i i don't read i only recall one crew chief who's

[1:00:37 - 1:00:43] ▶

just basically walking up and down watching everybody doing their job i don't remember anybody else

[1:00:43 - 1:00:49] ▶

i just remember just one guy and i don't remember seeing any kind of boxes or uh stuff that they

[1:00:49 - 1:00:55] ▶

would store in there and obviously we didn't have anything on the bottom because how are you going

[1:00:55 - 1:00:58] ▶

to land at the airport when you have some underneath yeah if you like a like a cargo

[1:00:58 - 1:01:02] ▶

correct book type of thing um which some of the helicopters were we're transporting stuff that way

[1:01:02 - 1:01:07] ▶

so you you landed at the LZ you describe it as a hasty LZ yeah i've come to learn that's a that's

[1:01:07 - 1:01:15] ▶

like a technical term there's like a there's like that that means something very specific are you

[1:01:15 - 1:01:19] ▶

using it in that way or it's what does that mean for someone who's like those of us know

[1:01:20 - 1:01:24] ▶

hasty is kind of like off the hip is not something very thought out it's just like okay where can we

[1:01:24 - 1:01:30] ▶

okay right there looks good right and that's maybe what they were thinking as far as the pilots

[1:01:30 - 1:01:34] ▶

concerned i don't know but uh maybe they had it designated but it just seemed to me because we

[1:01:34 - 1:01:39] ▶

were kind of the first ones there that it'd be hasty am i paying it but then when everything's

[1:01:39 - 1:01:43] ▶

else is set up some other Marines that probably come in we're like okay this is secured it's

[1:01:43 - 1:01:46] ▶

something set up it may not be health hasty LZ at that point but the one we approach that i just

[1:01:46 - 1:01:51] ▶

remember not really seeing anybody there so it's kind of like okay well so there was no so there

[1:01:51 - 1:01:56] ▶

weren't there wasn't anyone at the LZ when you landed guys were yeah i don't recall that there could

[1:01:56 - 1:02:01] ▶

have been some bystanders off to the off in the distance that maybe saw the attention or saw what

[1:02:01 - 1:02:06] ▶

was going on that decided to come up at a later point um but yeah as far as arriving there i don't

[1:02:06 - 1:02:11] ▶

remember seeing anybody so you guys step off the CH 53 your primary objective is to provide security

[1:02:11 - 1:02:16] ▶

what do you guys do right when you step off that well we saw this opportunity to take the slope

[1:02:16 - 1:02:20] ▶

because we have visual around everything it allows us to basically act within that protocol right

[1:02:21 - 1:02:27] ▶

as being in a tactical advantage of being in an elevated position is where you want to be and that's

[1:02:27 - 1:02:33] ▶

what you know that wasn't the one that made the decision the guy that was in charge of us was the one

[1:02:33 - 1:02:37] ▶

that made that decision you know it wasn't terribly too far in comparison but at the same point when

[1:02:37 - 1:02:43] ▶

you have visual of that and um you're also watching some other stuff happen i remember

[1:02:43 - 1:02:50] ▶

releasing one helicopter that actually had the cargo net on the bottom that was flown in dropped

[1:02:50 - 1:02:54] ▶

it off and then it banked off to the right what i'm curious is like what was your what was your

[1:02:54 - 1:03:00] ▶

initial impression when you got off the helicopter like in comparison to your briefing like your

[1:03:00 - 1:03:07] ▶

expectations that were set by the briefing and then the reality of you getting off this helicopter

[1:03:07 - 1:03:14] ▶

and you're there first of all you you said the helicopter left right yeah like it dropped you guys

[1:03:14 - 1:03:20] ▶

off it's gone you guys have no radio correct there's really no one around you guys are the only

[1:03:20 - 1:03:27] ▶

people there so like can you remember like was there an adjustment to your expectations of like

[1:03:27 - 1:03:35] ▶

the reality of the situation versus what you were expecting honestly you thought it was more like

[1:03:35 - 1:03:40] ▶

hey we're not doing shape with this yeah it's like it's just going to be boring to standing around

[1:03:40 - 1:03:44] ▶

looking at people like you know that's why i had a video camera when i was taking pictures and video

[1:03:44 - 1:03:50] ▶

because i remember getting them one helicopter that dropped off something on video and i remember

[1:03:50 - 1:03:54] ▶

getting it and uh needless to say it wasn't at the point where we you know because we were

[1:03:54 - 1:03:59] ▶

conditioned three with our weapons it wasn't like it was chambered around or nothing we just

[1:03:59 - 1:04:03] ▶

had a magazine inserted uh safety was on the bolt was all the way forward uh weapon was on safe

[1:04:03 - 1:04:09] ▶

from the injection port cover was closed as as it states in the condition rules right so i thought

[1:04:09 - 1:04:15] ▶

it was just oh yeah we're just going to be standing around this is just going to be kind of boring

[1:04:15 - 1:04:19] ▶

you know even trying to help out with boxes or something probably would have been more

[1:04:19 - 1:04:23] ▶

helpful in comparison here because you're actually doing something right so you know that lines up

[1:04:23 - 1:04:28] ▶

perfectly like every what every single person i've talked to who was on this operation you know

[1:04:28 - 1:04:34] ▶

doing different missions um on the operation described the same situation where they felt it was

[1:04:34 - 1:04:39] ▶

like boring it was like an excuse to get off the ship um you know obviously you're doing a good

[1:04:39 - 1:04:44] ▶

deed and you know it's it's a good experience from that perspective but it's interesting to hear

[1:04:44 - 1:04:49] ▶

that because i think a lot of people have this misconception that this was like you know because

[1:04:49 - 1:04:54] ▶

you had mentioned that oh you know you were notified there were terrorists in the in the location

[1:04:54 - 1:04:58] ▶

that you guys were like super on alert like this was like you were ready to engage an enemy and

[1:04:59 - 1:05:05] ▶

and you know that sort of thing nothing like that right were you surprised when the helicopter

[1:05:05 - 1:05:09] ▶

took off yep okay and did you have any sort of estimated time frame when it was to return to the

[1:05:09 - 1:05:14] ▶

mission duration i have no clue about that you guys um or are i suppose the squad leader decided

[1:05:14 - 1:05:21] ▶

that you guys should go up to the the top of the hill right and you know what it it makes sense

[1:05:21 - 1:05:27] ▶

because we were out in the open and you don't necessarily want to be out in the open if you've

[1:05:27 - 1:05:31] ▶

gotten a support at that and so where we were at was kind of hidden and you kind of get in a vegetation

[1:05:31 - 1:05:36] ▶

a little bit more so i can kind of understand why he would say it let's go ahead and push up this

[1:05:36 - 1:05:41] ▶

direction now you you've mentioned uh a second helicopter flying in you had your camera you know

[1:05:41 - 1:05:48] ▶

you you took some pictures of that helicopter coming in but did you i almost remember you saying

[1:05:48 - 1:05:54] ▶

it didn't fly to the same landing point that your helicopter did it landed somewhere

[1:05:55 - 1:06:00] ▶

off in a distance yeah a little bit further away so that makes me wonder kind of how big was the

[1:06:00 - 1:06:06] ▶

LZ essentially like was it was kind of just like an open area wasn't just like us in no

[1:06:06 - 1:06:11] ▶

no it was it was pretty old i remember it kind of being open but that's where i remember the hills

[1:06:11 - 1:06:15] ▶

and stuff because there's like an open area with thick tall grass right and it was kind of

[1:06:15 - 1:06:20] ▶

would assume muddy because it's a tropical terrain obviously it wasn't like we were on a dirt road

[1:06:20 - 1:06:25] ▶

or something that was already you know cleared out to be used as transportation so i think it was

[1:06:25 - 1:06:31] ▶

just more in a sense that there's a clear area over here and obviously there was they probably the

[1:06:31 - 1:06:36] ▶

second helicopter probably saw there people that were probably close to that area and assumed

[1:06:36 - 1:06:41] ▶

that those are the people for us we were off in the distance so whether or not he could see us

[1:06:41 - 1:06:46] ▶

at that point i don't know i assume he wouldn't be able to but because where we were at i mean there's

[1:06:46 - 1:06:50] ▶

trees you know yeah so you didn't see any sort of like preparation to the LZ yeah like they didn't

[1:06:50 - 1:06:57] ▶

cut down trees ahead of time you didn't see any red tape except seeing some photographs of other

[1:06:57 - 1:07:01] ▶

LZs that you know showed like red tape kind of closing off the area yeah i don't remember any red

[1:07:01 - 1:07:07] ▶

tape or seeing that kind of stuff so right so what would you estimate the time elapse was from the

[1:07:07 - 1:07:12] ▶

second you left the chow hall to returning to the denver i don't have a couple hours okay i

[1:07:12 - 1:07:17] ▶

had a been a couple but not like a full day no it was not a full day it had to be a couple hours

[1:07:17 - 1:07:21] ▶

there was nothing something that could have taken place within this band of a a chow hall shift

[1:07:21 - 1:07:26] ▶

like the time you spend more than that too could you know because they had to be a couple hours man

[1:07:27 - 1:07:32] ▶

you know it wasn't wasn't like a nal day thing okay thankfully you know what i forgot to ask is

[1:07:32 - 1:07:38] ▶

what was the weather like at the LZ sunny yeah yeah sunny i remember remember because it was hot

[1:07:39 - 1:07:45] ▶

i mean it was hot regardless i guess if they even if there was cloud cover it still would be hot

[1:07:46 - 1:07:50] ▶

because it's tropical i don't remember really

[1:07:50 - 1:07:53] ▶

i don't remember actually looking up at the sky to see if there were clowns or if it was

[1:07:56 - 1:08:00] ▶

sunny i just remember it being hot assuming it was sunny um and so when you get back to the denver

[1:08:00 - 1:08:08] ▶

how does it work like you know you have your rifle you have to like go back to the armory or

[1:08:09 - 1:08:13] ▶

something we dropped everything off there gave them the magazines wasn't my magazines it was

[1:08:13 - 1:08:17] ▶

somebody else's what do you mean by that um so there's an armor that gave us those magazines

[1:08:17 - 1:08:22] ▶

that were full because you were saw so you had your own weapon assigned yep i had my own magazines but

[1:08:22 - 1:08:27] ▶

make sure you remember if i actually had those on my vest two or if i were left them locked up or

[1:08:29 - 1:08:33] ▶

you know typically had those in my assault pack which i didn't bring an assault pack with me

[1:08:34 - 1:08:39] ▶

trying to think remember

[1:08:40 - 1:08:42] ▶

yeah with somebody else's magazines are sure so it wasn't mine because this was a loner m16

[1:08:45 - 1:08:49] ▶

loner magazines from a assigned to a different soldier right people compare you to like the

[1:08:49 - 1:08:53] ▶

like the dodey and benowitz story and i'm like that's completely different because benowitz didn't have

[1:08:54 - 1:09:01] ▶

this like a undeniable experience where he saw and and i was correct he had radio communication

[1:09:01 - 1:09:08] ▶

that was it and he speculated that it could be et and don't he just egg that on correct yeah this

[1:09:08 - 1:09:15] ▶

is totally and this is coming from don't himself i asked him kind of what that whole thing when

[1:09:15 - 1:09:19] ▶

he said yeah well somebody said they heard something Paul and this is what i was told to do

[1:09:19 - 1:09:24] ▶

right right so i mean like it makes it just logically makes no sense like if you were making this

[1:09:24 - 1:09:30] ▶

up if the if a disinfo agent were to come and like be like yeah i know about your your operation

[1:09:30 - 1:09:38] ▶

that you stumbled upon it's like if you made it up you would know that he's lying well exactly

[1:09:38 - 1:09:42] ▶

because how could he tell you that he knows about operations exactly it was made up

[1:09:42 - 1:09:47] ▶

like it just doesn't make any sense no i mean i wish it was made up because then i wouldn't have

[1:09:47 - 1:09:52] ▶

to have been going through losing my fucking hair and having the you know sleepless nights and

[1:09:52 - 1:09:57] ▶

literally just it i wouldn't be in the uncomfortable position i would be in yeah and it's not fun

[1:09:57 - 1:10:03] ▶

being in this position it really isn't that that's why i tell people especially i'm not encouraging my

[1:10:03 - 1:10:08] ▶

guys to come forward and let's say if this thing blows open and then all of a sudden everything is

[1:10:08 - 1:10:12] ▶

able to be proven true but and let's just say these insiders at some point ever do where some

[1:10:12 - 1:10:19] ▶

information comes out that's physical that literally no shit can prove everything then maybe they

[1:10:19 - 1:10:24] ▶

would i don't know yeah but it put them in a different position but right now i mean even for

[1:10:24 - 1:10:28] ▶

myself they know that i'm uncomfortable and they kind of like well it's your fucking fault

[1:10:28 - 1:10:33] ▶

i don't blame them i mean but if i didn't see what i saw and somebody else from a different

[1:10:34 - 1:10:38] ▶

perspective was telling this story i don't know how i would react to that probably i probably

[1:10:38 - 1:10:43] ▶

wouldn't believe it i'd probably be mean but that's the only thing is before any of this happened i

[1:10:43 - 1:10:48] ▶

was not somebody who believed in this shit i was somebody who was like okay well this guy's out

[1:10:48 - 1:10:52] ▶

of his fucking mind or you know well you got you so you're let me guess you're in missusippian

[1:10:52 - 1:10:57] ▶

you're fishing and you saw a fucking craft and you saw a fucking grace okay what episode that's

[1:10:57 - 1:11:03] ▶

exfiles are you talking about that's how i would think of it but then having my experiences is like

[1:11:03 - 1:11:08] ▶

if i experience this okay maybe there might be some validity to what they're saying i don't know

[1:11:10 - 1:11:14] ▶

i wasn't there but i know based off of being in my shoes it's like it's hard to say somebody

[1:11:14 - 1:11:18] ▶

else is not true or they're trying to point out the flaws or anything like that i know what it's

[1:11:18 - 1:11:24] ▶

like to be in somebody's shoes like that granted i'm dincee tees i saw operators and i saw

[1:11:24 - 1:11:29] ▶

it was clearly man-made and it was didn't do shit on normal helicopter or plane did i can tell you

[1:11:29 - 1:11:35] ▶

that right i mean it's like an unmistakable 100 percent like it's not like something you saw at

[1:11:35 - 1:11:41] ▶

a distance i was like that looks weird like this thing's right here yep you see it it's huge

[1:11:41 - 1:11:45] ▶

we're when close enough to hear it yeah you know right that's kind of the fly off yep i mean it's like

[1:11:45 - 1:11:52] ▶

didn't have a rotor it wasn't like a helicopter it wasn't a plane yeah it was no rotor wash on the

[1:11:52 - 1:11:58] ▶

vegetation nothing nothing like that was like it was like it was isolated in itself like it didn't

[1:11:58 - 1:12:04] ▶

disturb any of the environment it's a weirdest thing i've ever seen and i wanted to be a fighter

[1:12:04 - 1:12:09] ▶

pilot and i knew pretty much what kind of aircraft we had at our disposal was as a marine core

[1:12:09 - 1:12:14] ▶

and especially the air force only has a start amount of planes they're using helicopter

[1:12:14 - 1:12:19] ▶

same thing there's only so many this obviously was an Indonesian military equipment

[1:12:19 - 1:12:25] ▶

i don't remember any of anybody coming saying hey yeah an Indonesian military has something

[1:12:26 - 1:12:30] ▶

that's sophisticated or Chinese or Japanese or for that matter right you know yeah i find

[1:12:30 - 1:12:37] ▶

i find it interesting to you know you testified to arrow and like i noticed in the historical

[1:12:37 - 1:12:42] ▶

report you know they they emphasized like belief and like you know basically trying to say

[1:12:42 - 1:12:48] ▶

you know people might believe what they saw or anything but we can't prove that they're lying and i'm

[1:12:49 - 1:12:55] ▶

like what you're describing is is an unmistakable testimony if there's no it's not like you could say

[1:12:55 - 1:13:03] ▶

like oh well maybe he believes that's what he saw but maybe it was something different there's a way

[1:13:03 - 1:13:09] ▶

say it was right some i mean if anybody was to have seen this they would remember this for the

[1:13:09 - 1:13:16] ▶

rest of their life exactly it's so distinct because this never happens right it's stumble i mean

[1:13:16 - 1:13:21] ▶

in some ways people think oh it's stumble on the gold no it's really not but in some cases of

[1:13:21 - 1:13:27] ▶

saying that yes we have this technology because there's human involvement obviously it's not like

[1:13:27 - 1:13:32] ▶

there's an et's in there floating flying this damn thing and there's just operators who just

[1:13:32 - 1:13:37] ▶

choose to be there i mean it's completely man-made and with the human involvement just tells me okay

[1:13:37 - 1:13:44] ▶

well man-made human involvement means it's some group has it now i know who it is to an extent

[1:13:44 - 1:13:52] ▶

and speaking of error i really wanted to kind of fast forward to when you talk to him in

[1:13:53 - 1:13:56] ▶

April of 2023 what was that like i don't like an interrogation to an extent and so you spoke

[1:13:56 - 1:14:03] ▶

directly to dr. Sean Kirkpatrick right he's the only one that i can confirm that yes i talked to

[1:14:03 - 1:14:09] ▶

now i know the other gentleman but what i signed stating that it was not allowed to divulge where

[1:14:09 - 1:14:15] ▶

we met ad or who was also there but dr. Kirkpatrick was in the interview and i think he was in

[1:14:15 - 1:14:21] ▶

everybody's interview i'll have to ask other whistleblowers i personally know if he was sitting

[1:14:21 - 1:14:25] ▶

in there with him but he was there what was his demeanor like when you were speaking to him

[1:14:25 - 1:14:29] ▶

um not really interested everybody else was taking notes he was more interested in the fact of

[1:14:30 - 1:14:36] ▶

um because he only asked three questions and the three questions were all the same it was who

[1:14:36 - 1:14:41] ▶

were these operators i would have stated once i don't know i'm not gonna know the second time i'm

[1:14:41 - 1:14:47] ▶

not gonna know the third time i know a little bit now of who what group they're a part of and what

[1:14:47 - 1:14:52] ▶

their backgrounds may be but i don't know who they directly are would you and if it was any of the

[1:14:52 - 1:14:58] ▶

people that i've been talking and working with i would remember who they are based off their faces

[1:14:58 - 1:15:04] ▶

and none of them are those guys when you testified to him did dr. Kirk Kirkpatrick say he'd follow

[1:15:04 - 1:15:09] ▶

up did he say what was gonna happen next oh yeah so we'll follow up on it you know they wanted

[1:15:09 - 1:15:13] ▶

um because i had asked them if they could get the satellite imagery of that day and they said

[1:15:13 - 1:15:17] ▶

they had access to that it's been more than a year and they have yet to have anybody contact me

[1:15:17 - 1:15:25] ▶

from arrow saying that yes we have an imagery where can you point out because i mean compared to

[1:15:25 - 1:15:30] ▶

14 15 years ago it's gonna look different um maybe they expanded the city there's things

[1:15:30 - 1:15:35] ▶

that vegetation have grown there's any numerous things that could have happened between at that

[1:15:35 - 1:15:40] ▶

point to now and how did you feel when the historic or pervalue one came out that was a a complete

[1:15:40 - 1:15:46] ▶

misprint lie of of your testimony stating you saw it was a craftry will be a real

[1:15:46 - 1:15:50] ▶

say extra terrestrial and i didn't say they were u.s. special forces none of that came out of my

[1:15:50 - 1:15:56] ▶

mouth and you got to think that that's a purposeful omission to yeah to say those things because

[1:15:56 - 1:16:02] ▶

that's blatantly false correct i've stated in every single interview and even a national press club

[1:16:02 - 1:16:08] ▶

and even with some gentlemen that i've still in touch with who was in the skiff with me he for one

[1:16:08 - 1:16:14] ▶

knows i never said anything like that because he was sitting right here when i was talking to

[1:16:14 - 1:16:18] ▶

Kirkpatrick among others so i was i was pretty upset at the fact but you can't really be upset

[1:16:18 - 1:16:24] ▶

because you already kind of expected them to do something like this and that's what they do

[1:16:24 - 1:16:28] ▶

was there i because i think some of the people who testified to arrow there was a written

[1:16:28 - 1:16:34] ▶

memorandum for record of their testimony do you know if there was any written record of

[1:16:34 - 1:16:41] ▶

why don't you remember that either i remember them taking notes and handwriting everything

[1:16:41 - 1:16:45] ▶

trying to get the details but i think it was something that like the witness had what sign you know

[1:16:45 - 1:16:49] ▶

they would read over like okay yeah this is what i my testimony they would sign it for record to be

[1:16:49 - 1:16:54] ▶

like this is my testimony that i provided to arrow i signed i signed several documents that could

[1:16:54 - 1:17:01] ▶

have been one of them i don't recall that i remember i remember saying a non disclosure saying that

[1:17:01 - 1:17:07] ▶

i would not talk about who specifically was there besides dr. k already admitting that he was in

[1:17:07 - 1:17:11] ▶

our interviews so that's easy the other gentleman i can't and then the location i can't talk about

[1:17:11 - 1:17:18] ▶

that that's legal binding because it's not anything illegal so i have to respect that yeah what other

[1:17:18 - 1:17:24] ▶

memorandums have you seen for the arrow because i've only seen on eric tabers who of course is a

[1:17:24 - 1:17:30] ▶

second hand kind of well i think there was i think there was something that was foya release okay

[1:17:30 - 1:17:37] ▶

um from the black vault that i had recognized was was what i provided you right a direct uh it was

[1:17:38 - 1:17:45] ▶

the same exact form that you had shown me yep um so i had recognized that that was provided for me

[1:17:45 - 1:17:51] ▶

to look over before making that wasn't like the actual one you signed but it was kind of a to

[1:17:51 - 1:17:56] ▶

to yeah because there were screenshots of this gentleman's cell phone that he sent me who's involved

[1:17:56 - 1:17:59] ▶

with that did you watch his uh interviews with steven green street it'll just piss you i don't

[1:17:59 - 1:18:04] ▶

watch any of his shit dude because i just know it's all bullfuckin lies there was a supposed to be

[1:18:04 - 1:18:09] ▶

a second piece that uh completely got moved and you know what would get people to use if they

[1:18:09 - 1:18:14] ▶

hey shan go ahead and come on to this podcast here's the whistleblowers hey buddy how's it going

[1:18:14 - 1:18:22] ▶

having seen in a while thanks for being a fucking dick he would he would never he said he would

[1:18:22 - 1:18:27] ▶

know because yes what i can contradict the shit that he's talking about he's still can other people

[1:18:27 - 1:18:31] ▶

he said he wouldn't do any more media appearances after getting caught at a 2018 skimlocker ranch

[1:18:31 - 1:18:36] ▶

briefing he's alive he wasn't uh well i a brand and actually had posted that i mean because he did

[1:18:36 - 1:18:42] ▶

the same thing i didn't talk to him about this i wasn't at this meeting and then Brandon just post

[1:18:42 - 1:18:46] ▶

the picture on twitter i remember i i hit Brandon up at that point yeah one one thing i actually kind

[1:18:46 - 1:18:52] ▶

of find funny is you know so nate so nathan came forward um you know he your team leader

[1:18:52 - 1:19:01] ▶

claims that you know you're making this all up um you know first of all it's like

[1:19:03 - 1:19:09] ▶

so he was you know he was unvetted with with Patrick and it was framed as if he was in a position

[1:19:10 - 1:19:20] ▶

like there's no situation where nathan would have seen the UFO because from your testimony

[1:19:20 - 1:19:25] ▶

he wasn't part of your squad no he was not that that was there no so he wouldn't have seen the UFO

[1:19:25 - 1:19:31] ▶

right not at all yeah so for him to be like yeah we were on this mission but we didn't see the UFO

[1:19:31 - 1:19:38] ▶

doesn't make sense because whatever mission he did obviously he didn't see the UFO

[1:19:38 - 1:19:43] ▶

no and that wasn't on the same one with it you were not exactly nor was this a secret night mission

[1:19:43 - 1:19:48] ▶

no it was not nor and it did not involve aliens i mean not at all i never spoke seeing et's guys

[1:19:48 - 1:19:55] ▶

that that's kind of why this boring in comparison to other people's stuff you know but no it was not

[1:19:55 - 1:20:00] ▶

a night mission that would have sucked up in our night we didn't have a night vision with us you

[1:20:00 - 1:20:04] ▶

know i'm my kevlar and i didn't even have a rhino mount to mount anything because i always kept

[1:20:04 - 1:20:07] ▶

that off because it just getting the weight during the daytime and typically i had

[1:20:07 - 1:20:12] ▶

on my kevlar i usually had goggles that were clear lenses most of the time it was just easy to

[1:20:13 - 1:20:27] ▶

pop those off and put them on just because you know i didn't like having darks because

[1:20:27 - 1:20:31] ▶

they just really fucked with my vision and just i hated it and not only that but these were

[1:20:31 - 1:20:37] ▶

ESS and they fogged up like you wouldn't believe so at least clears are easier to deal with that

[1:20:37 - 1:20:41] ▶

as opposed to the dark lenses but yeah Nathan wasn't with me yeah i mean one so like one thing

[1:20:41 - 1:20:47] ▶

that i find kind of funny like what you think about it you know if if you know he's saying you made

[1:20:47 - 1:20:52] ▶

this all up and so if that's the case it means not only did you decide to make up a story about

[1:20:52 - 1:20:58] ▶

your pose but you decided the actual mission i went on with Nathan i'm gonna pretend that didn't

[1:20:58 - 1:21:04] ▶

happen too which makes no sense now whatsoever and i mean really the the only thing

[1:21:04 - 1:21:09] ▶

that makes Nathan's testimony have any weight whatsoever is simply the fact that you're denying that

[1:21:12 - 1:21:19] ▶

you were ever on a mission with him because you could have very easily have just said yeah i did two

[1:21:19 - 1:21:23] ▶

missions i did one with him and i had this other one yeah i didn't do two missions it's just like

[1:21:23 - 1:21:27] ▶

anyone with half of brain would like know that you know if you were making this all up just

[1:21:27 - 1:21:33] ▶

say yeah well i went on this real mission with Nathan yeah it could it could easily

[1:21:34 - 1:21:38] ▶

is that something like that if that was really the case if if i wanted to lie about right right

[1:21:38 - 1:21:43] ▶

but you know then obviously the insiders wouldn't exist and you know well that's the biggest thing

[1:21:43 - 1:21:47] ▶

for me is like why would this insider be approaching you and it's just not one guy it's multiple

[1:21:47 - 1:21:52] ▶

you know what i mean so why would they spend any time to try to help me if i was lying to anybody

[1:21:52 - 1:21:57] ▶

why would they expose themselves on their parts of it and details that i personally know

[1:21:58 - 1:22:03] ▶

they wouldn't take that chance they're already their butts already puckered up just like

[1:22:03 - 1:22:08] ▶

mind-compared because obviously what they're having to deal with personally they wouldn't

[1:22:08 - 1:22:13] ▶

subject themselves to to going to somebody who's lying doesn't make any sense but so Nathan the

[1:22:13 - 1:22:21] ▶

the thing that's most compelling about Nathan is is you know he is who he says he is you know he

[1:22:21 - 1:22:28] ▶

was your team leader at one point yes and he was on that operation he was on the ship all of that

[1:22:28 - 1:22:34] ▶

stuff logically lines up and he has this photograph of two people on a helicopter he says one of

[1:22:34 - 1:22:42] ▶

them is you you've denied that you said correct i know who it is i'm not going to say who it is but

[1:22:42 - 1:22:47] ▶

i know who it is yeah so the thing the thing that's interesting though is someone found a match in

[1:22:47 - 1:22:55] ▶

the camouflage uh between that photo and another photo of you is it the daily mail photo uh yeah

[1:22:55 - 1:23:05] ▶

yeah yeah okay because there's only two photos that i know that i've that have been released one

[1:23:05 - 1:23:09] ▶

of them was when i sent to Josh Bosworth with daily mail because they're like hey do you have any

[1:23:09 - 1:23:14] ▶

pictures you want to yeah i believe it's you helmet on holding the saw right correct so yes and

[1:23:14 - 1:23:19] ▶

um i mean but here's the thing it's a medium rag that i was wearing a lot of them are the same

[1:23:19 - 1:23:24] ▶

patterns of that way it's not like it's a fingerprint of one specific thing i mean it's it's odd

[1:23:24 - 1:23:30] ▶

that it's in the same location like i know like some of the patterns repeat and and you can find

[1:23:30 - 1:23:35] ▶

examples of this uh all over of of finding like the pattern you know on a leg here and then on a

[1:23:35 - 1:23:41] ▶

different uniform like it it'll be on like the other leg or right and but it's like some of the

[1:23:41 - 1:23:46] ▶

patterns don't even look identical just in my opinion you know that's just where we're at and

[1:23:46 - 1:23:51] ▶

so you don't think there's any possibility that like it was it was a picture of you on a different

[1:23:51 - 1:23:58] ▶

day no that was not me it just simply facial structure doesn't look the same as mine nothing

[1:23:58 - 1:24:03] ▶

yeah it's not even me i mean even everybody i've showed that knows me it's like that's not

[1:24:03 - 1:24:06] ▶

fucking you dude yeah people text me like this guy saying it's you that's not you yeah

[1:24:06 - 1:24:12] ▶

so i mean if that's where he's got that's where he's got that's not me right

[1:24:12 - 1:24:16] ▶

okay what his intention with this is i don't know but there's just i mean you guys have a

[1:24:17 - 1:24:22] ▶

history i mean oh he doesn't like me flat out and as the feelings mutual but the thing is i

[1:24:22 - 1:24:27] ▶

move i got with what i'm dealing with in my life and that's all i'm focused on right i'm not

[1:24:27 - 1:24:32] ▶

making money off of this stuff this doesn't get me anywhere financially right what it does

[1:24:32 - 1:24:36] ▶

provide is understanding and stuff that i wish i never learned but the truth had to be known and

[1:24:36 - 1:24:41] ▶

i'm thankful at least these insiders were able to show details and share me details as well

[1:24:41 - 1:24:46] ▶

of of what they were personally dealing with because these guys are working in that organization

[1:24:47 - 1:24:52] ▶

yeah so let's let's fast forward to that you know kind of modern day

[1:24:52 - 1:24:56] ▶

after your your whole experience you don't talk about this for many years

[1:24:57 - 1:25:02] ▶

what what motivated you to come forward in because you've signed an NDA that basically

[1:25:02 - 1:25:09] ▶

did in your life and correct and all of all of us did sign that so what motivated you to

[1:25:09 - 1:25:15] ▶

come forward what was your objective well um i just think the truth should have been out i don't

[1:25:15 - 1:25:22] ▶

think that this should be secret and i don't think people should be dying and being threatened

[1:25:22 - 1:25:28] ▶

about ets or craft or anything it just sounds ridiculous to me so my motivation was you know what

[1:25:28 - 1:25:34] ▶

that somebody else out there besides the guys i was with and myself have had to have a similar

[1:25:34 - 1:25:41] ▶

experiences and maybe maybe there's a chance in hell that mine connects the dots for something

[1:25:42 - 1:25:48] ▶

maybe my story can help other people to an extent as crazy as it sounds and don't get me wrong

[1:25:48 - 1:25:55] ▶

i agree that it's absolutely sounds fucking nuts but they're not in my shoes and i wish some

[1:25:55 - 1:26:00] ▶

people were because they'd be like you guys would just shut up you guys would stay quiet and you

[1:26:00 - 1:26:04] ▶

guys were like yeah that's not cool to talk about i don't enjoy talking about it but that was kind

[1:26:04 - 1:26:09] ▶

of my my intention was maybe that this could help paint a picture or a contribute in some way

[1:26:09 - 1:26:16] ▶

shape or four yeah and i think you know there was there were whistleblower protections that had

[1:26:16 - 1:26:21] ▶

recently been been passed yes and i think i remember you talking about that uh kind of being

[1:26:21 - 1:26:29] ▶

part of your motivation like now that they have a safety net to an extent making the NDA illegal

[1:26:29 - 1:26:34] ▶

you know so obviously i haven't had any ramifications of that yeah because it's not like i mean

[1:26:34 - 1:26:39] ▶

i've had harassment but you know and the harassment services more of like okay well obviously i'm

[1:26:39 - 1:26:44] ▶

pissing the right people off right you know so if i again i have documentation of all the harassment

[1:26:44 - 1:26:51] ▶

that i've talked to with multiple people who know what's going on if i was making any of this up

[1:26:51 - 1:26:57] ▶

there wouldn't be this harassment there wouldn't be these insiders there wouldn't be this

[1:26:57 - 1:27:00] ▶

i wouldn't have a leg to stand on with with other facts now there are facts in my world to somebody

[1:27:00 - 1:27:06] ▶

else observing outside of my circle they may say okay and their world it may not be facts but for

[1:27:06 - 1:27:11] ▶

me in my world it is when i first connected with you um after my initial reddit post kind of just

[1:27:11 - 1:27:17] ▶

researching the military side of the operation and in like realizing that you know everything you

[1:27:17 - 1:27:23] ▶

said to a letter was accurate yes regarding the kind of surrounding circumstances and i was like

[1:27:23 - 1:27:29] ▶

okay well what's next you know and so we you know i reached out we connected

[1:27:30 - 1:27:34] ▶

um if i'm honest i i actually grew more skeptical yep um as you should anybody yes because you

[1:27:34 - 1:27:42] ▶

all of a sudden started talking about this insider and i'm like this is weird like what did it have

[1:27:42 - 1:27:48] ▶

chances right you would have this experience and now all of a sudden someone telling you

[1:27:48 - 1:27:52] ▶

that they know what you saw and they want to meet with you so you know i didn't have anybody else

[1:27:52 - 1:27:58] ▶

that i was talking to with this i don't i don't have a lot of friends i don't care to have a lot

[1:27:58 - 1:28:02] ▶

of friends i got a lot of acquaintances i got a lot of people know who i am to an extent my world

[1:28:02 - 1:28:06] ▶

is just business and and that's what i you know i separate this from business because

[1:28:06 - 1:28:10] ▶

business is what my livelihood and my employees are that's what i care about as well as the

[1:28:11 - 1:28:16] ▶

disclosure of wanting the truth to come out so i didn't sound like i had anybody else to say hey

[1:28:16 - 1:28:20] ▶

and then when i saw what you were doing and i saw the attention to detail and everything that you

[1:28:20 - 1:28:25] ▶

were piecing together that kind of put something in my mind to say you know what maybe this guy can

[1:28:25 - 1:28:31] ▶

help me out to an extent maybe um there's things that he could probably pinpoint or or connect the

[1:28:31 - 1:28:37] ▶

dots on and just your attention to detail was just something it's like you know what this guy's

[1:28:37 - 1:28:43] ▶

got to ship together maybe i'm able to provide information to you that because you seem like

[1:28:43 - 1:28:48] ▶

you you're well versed in this i'm not i know what i experienced and there's other things i'm

[1:28:48 - 1:28:53] ▶

now learning that especially with your guys' help especially pointing out to me things that i

[1:28:53 - 1:28:57] ▶

can pass on to other people and say yay or nay is this having a legitimacy to it so um yeah

[1:28:57 - 1:29:04] ▶

surprised at the amount of trust that you kind of put into me right because like if you would

[1:29:04 - 1:29:10] ▶

if you had like told stuff to the wrong person you could have been but i had a good chance of

[1:29:10 - 1:29:14] ▶

reading you and and kind of gauging you which is why we had a phone call yeah initially had and in

[1:29:14 - 1:29:20] ▶

the biggest the the the the most craziest biggest moment for me was you know you were talking about

[1:29:20 - 1:29:28] ▶

this insider who wanted to meet with you i was so skeptical it sounded so crazy but like i

[1:29:28 - 1:29:33] ▶

had nothing to lose it wasn't like i was this podcaster who like had to report on the story like

[1:29:33 - 1:29:38] ▶

i could back away the from the whole thing if i correct if it fell apart and i felt sketchy about

[1:29:38 - 1:29:43] ▶

it i was like you know what let's just see what happens we had a phone call the day before i

[1:29:43 - 1:29:47] ▶

recorded that yes you got your knowledge and and i oh i was freaked out you were freaking

[1:29:47 - 1:29:52] ▶

i was freaking fuck out i was you know because these guys could have done anything i was going

[1:29:52 - 1:29:56] ▶

to their backyard i wanted to scream at you and like say dude don't go i know they're gonna like

[1:29:56 - 1:30:01] ▶

i had to i had to learn the truth and that's what they were offering they weren't offering money

[1:30:01 - 1:30:06] ▶

they weren't offering anything like that they were offering a chance to set me and set the

[1:30:06 - 1:30:10] ▶

record straight of what i witnessed and i think after keeping this you know it's quiet for 14 plus

[1:30:10 - 1:30:18] ▶

years i think i deserve the truth i think everybody deserves the truth because for what's going on

[1:30:18 - 1:30:24] ▶

is absolute bullshit of why it's secret and why these guys feel in the right mind that they want

[1:30:24 - 1:30:30] ▶

kidnapped people or offer them a way out of their situation and use them as a biological

[1:30:31 - 1:30:39] ▶

equipment in these programs is just it doesn't sit well with me i understand why but i think if

[1:30:39 - 1:30:46] ▶

there was some kind of government intervention with this that there maybe could people that want to

[1:30:46 - 1:30:51] ▶

volunteer or maybe see what they can do and if they can that's their thing and i understand that

[1:30:51 - 1:30:55] ▶

these guys are also doing the same thing but i think they're given false promises i think they're

[1:30:56 - 1:31:02] ▶

being misled like they are because that's why they're partaking in this and they don't understand

[1:31:02 - 1:31:05] ▶

the magnitude of what they're doing and from my current knowledge i know that a lot of them don't

[1:31:05 - 1:31:10] ▶

know what they're getting involved with because they're heavily drugged and they can't recall what

[1:31:10 - 1:31:15] ▶

they're doing specifically with what they're making contact with yeah i wanted to ask you about

[1:31:15 - 1:31:20] ▶

this so it was during the npc you learned that these crates weren't trafficking drugs but but people

[1:31:20 - 1:31:26] ▶

i um so i did a two day event prior to that it was June 10th 11th and 12th was it the 12th of the

[1:31:27 - 1:31:34] ▶

npc was on yeah i think the daily male article came up the 10th or 11th and the npc was out of

[1:31:34 - 1:31:41] ▶

the 12th because i was um i had talked to Josh Boswell with daily male prior to go into dc

[1:31:41 - 1:31:48] ▶

and um and it grewer was the one that set all that up and my goal as much as i possibly can is

[1:31:48 - 1:31:57] ▶

having some transparency because i think that's important and it is as a comfortable it is for me

[1:31:57 - 1:32:04] ▶

to be public i don't enjoy it but if i'm able to provide in any kind of asset to disclosure in any

[1:32:04 - 1:32:12] ▶

kind of way i'm not here for money everybody knows that i think good because i'm not for that cause

[1:32:12 - 1:32:18] ▶

that's i make my own money as you guys know you guys have seen so um and it's even crazy that i

[1:32:18 - 1:32:25] ▶

got employees that don't know what i'm doing and i don't talk i don't talk about it freely there's

[1:32:25 - 1:32:29] ▶

some people who do and they're kind of curious they just like kind of find out on their own or

[1:32:29 - 1:32:33] ▶

yeah other people oh yeah it's like it's some people talking yeah so i assume that some people don't

[1:32:33 - 1:32:38] ▶

know because nobody asks me some people have seen what i did and they're texting me man that's

[1:32:38 - 1:32:43] ▶

you know they're kind of trying to get in detail with it i'm like i can't tell you much man

[1:32:44 - 1:32:47] ▶

yeah you know this you know yeah just jump it back to i just wanted to emphasize that

[1:32:48 - 1:32:54] ▶

the the biggest moment for me and you actually at this point you're kind of like totally

[1:32:55 - 1:32:59] ▶

read into all of the events that i have so like that meeting you had with the insider was the

[1:32:59 - 1:33:05] ▶

pivotal moment for me because that conversation that you and i had prior to the day before that

[1:33:05 - 1:33:12] ▶

meeting gave me very specific starting point yeah so be able to track the helicopter i knew the

[1:33:12 - 1:33:22] ▶

location where you guys were meeting um and and it just it set up a a way for me to verify a lot of

[1:33:22 - 1:33:30] ▶

things correct there was an important piece of evidence and so that is what led me to

[1:33:30 - 1:33:35] ▶

to verify on your own accord to verify without you even know it correct where you went i was really

[1:33:36 - 1:33:43] ▶

surprised when you told me how the fact i was like yeah how the fuck did you find that i was like okay

[1:33:43 - 1:33:48] ▶

now the yeah it's obvious after that point yeah and i think it was i think it was a good slip-up to

[1:33:48 - 1:33:54] ▶

an extent because because it was able to at least pinpoint somebody to be able to verify because

[1:33:54 - 1:34:00] ▶

with that helicopter flight you were as well as i was able to provide other events that were going

[1:34:01 - 1:34:08] ▶

on yeah that was the other thing because like prior to me revealing to you that i like

[1:34:08 - 1:34:12] ▶

tracked it on radar i was like hey do you remember what time you took off and you told me

[1:34:12 - 1:34:18] ▶

and it was exactly what the radar said i was like holy crap and then

[1:34:18 - 1:34:22] ▶

yeah there were some kind of uh limited time kind of events that were happening on the ground

[1:34:23 - 1:34:30] ▶

yes that could be visible from the air yep and and you corroborated that yes um i was able to

[1:34:30 - 1:34:36] ▶

cross check that with um you know local news um and and like i've spoken to you about how

[1:34:36 - 1:34:44] ▶

i authenticated the evidence and and use yes you know and the only thing i could say without

[1:34:45 - 1:34:51] ▶

going into specifics is you know where i went yeah that's all that's all we're going to talk about

[1:34:51 - 1:34:55] ▶

yeah yeah and and and and i know you know now because i say he's provided and i've okayed that

[1:34:55 - 1:35:01] ▶

because i think some people should know i trust you guys yeah um you have been by my side for a

[1:35:01 - 1:35:07] ▶

year without finally meeting you today yeah it's still crazy yes but you're um i can tell because

[1:35:07 - 1:35:14] ▶

i read people very well that's where sales comes into i can kind of gauge you know and um i

[1:35:14 - 1:35:19] ▶

i know that you're for the truth and i know you are too and i am as well and we're all in the same

[1:35:20 - 1:35:24] ▶

shoes as far as winning this to come forward and wanting this whole thing to stop because our way

[1:35:24 - 1:35:29] ▶

of life can improve you know the the insider provided a lot of uh information for you to disseminate

[1:35:29 - 1:35:36] ▶

yes and granted it was tough for me because that he you know they were in attendance and it was a

[1:35:36 - 1:35:44] ▶

group of day not pronouns attendance in the npc 2023 they were there but they were also there at the

[1:35:44 - 1:35:51] ▶

the other events the one three days before it was two days so it was 10th 11th and 12th okay so it was

[1:35:51 - 1:35:58] ▶

during was that on a Monday the npc uh i let me look real okay so you were talking about just a

[1:35:58 - 1:36:05] ▶

couple days before the npc that's when you first kind of met these insiders so i didn't meet them

[1:36:05 - 1:36:10] ▶

directly but i know that they were in attendance and um when i had presented on that Saturday i

[1:36:10 - 1:36:19] ▶

believe is when it was um Saturday and Sunday because yeah i think it was a Saturday and Sunday because

[1:36:19 - 1:36:24] ▶

i got in friday afternoon or morning and then they went to the hotel i had dinner with

[1:36:26 - 1:36:32] ▶

career and everybody uh kind of met them actually was a couple drinks um at the hotel and then

[1:36:32 - 1:36:40] ▶

we got our rooms got everything situated went downstairs i introduced my wife to everybody too that

[1:36:41 - 1:36:45] ▶

i've already been kind of somewhat familiar with and talking to and it was my first time in meeting

[1:36:45 - 1:36:49] ▶

some people like michael stratten person doctor rear in person oh no there'd be the second time

[1:36:49 - 1:36:54] ▶

because he was here in boulder um that's when i first actually met him and i was in 2017

[1:36:54 - 1:36:59] ▶

you know i was um i just kind of felt that he was somebody at the time who was talking about this

[1:36:59 - 1:37:08] ▶

and there were some things that he had hinted that were may have been maybe other people

[1:37:09 - 1:37:14] ▶

of experience were of experience that he was talking to so i wanted to tell him hey this was my

[1:37:14 - 1:37:19] ▶

situation you know anybody else who went through this maybe it's somebody i can convey and

[1:37:19 - 1:37:24] ▶

compare notes to this person and of course they don't some of them are dead and some of them refuse

[1:37:24 - 1:37:28] ▶

to talk understandably but um yes these insiders were there so when i had did that event and it

[1:37:28 - 1:37:35] ▶

may be on youtube i can't find it anywhere it may be on youtube or some because i know it was recorded

[1:37:35 - 1:37:41] ▶

because doctor grared myself were kind of frustrated that their audio and video people were kind

[1:37:41 - 1:37:45] ▶

of slacken i had given my peace that day and i had um expressed that what i hypothesized was drugs

[1:37:45 - 1:37:56] ▶

right and that's when doctor grared pulled me aside and showed me his phone that had

[1:37:56 - 1:38:03] ▶

a text message from this individual that had he had this encrypted app it was not signal with some

[1:38:03 - 1:38:07] ▶

other high tech communication platform did not look like signal and i read the text message

[1:38:07 - 1:38:15] ▶

and what that text message said was and my wife was actually sitting on the couch in the in the

[1:38:16 - 1:38:21] ▶

green room and i was close to her and doctor grared was standing to my right and the text message said

[1:38:21 - 1:38:28] ▶

i don't want to leave michael hanging but i know what michael saw and he went through this whole

[1:38:29 - 1:38:35] ▶

he wrote a bible essentially of what it was to an extent but he had talked that he wanted to

[1:38:35 - 1:38:42] ▶

now talk to doctor grared privately and discuss what it was and um so i at that point because i was

[1:38:42 - 1:38:50] ▶

i was volunteered security form which is what i'm doing with this too but it's more of me to kind of

[1:38:50 - 1:38:54] ▶

see what the fuck else is going on that's just how i can get information so you do you perform

[1:38:55 - 1:39:00] ▶

you help benefit somebody but you also get to kind of learn more in depth what's kind of being

[1:39:00 - 1:39:05] ▶

going on and you get to be in the sensitive meetings and stuff and kind of really see so it's kind of

[1:39:05 - 1:39:09] ▶

my personal way to kind of disseminate information and maybe be able to understand that's just my

[1:39:09 - 1:39:17] ▶

curiosity but um i met that gentleman which of course he didn't know that i knew who he was to

[1:39:17 - 1:39:23] ▶

an extent of his grish that he was going to meet with him and maybe they were going to put me in

[1:39:23 - 1:39:26] ▶

the green room and have a face-to-face conversation which never happened and then i wake up to uh

[1:39:26 - 1:39:32] ▶

text message that he sent me a two o'clock in the morning i don't remember what day specific i

[1:39:32 - 1:39:38] ▶

still have it because i haven't all saved of course just in case i have a paper trail just in case

[1:39:38 - 1:39:42] ▶

anything happens and um he had said that um a gentleman's name to an extent

[1:39:42 - 1:39:52] ▶

knows what i saw and would like to talk to me about it and he is a knock non-official covers what

[1:39:54 - 1:40:02] ▶

that stands for in the CIA term and he gave me his phone number which is one of one of many

[1:40:02 - 1:40:09] ▶

at least that number so i i um i was like oh shit okay and it wasn't like it wasn't expecting it

[1:40:10 - 1:40:18] ▶

because i was like okay this guy probably he probably won't bother with me he'll just tell

[1:40:18 - 1:40:22] ▶

Dr. Greer everything and then Dr. Ver will tell me what i dealt with and experience but that was

[1:40:22 - 1:40:27] ▶

in the case so um i had i sat on it for probably about a day or two because i was like okay here's

[1:40:27 - 1:40:35] ▶

a point and i'll return realistically and i was like you know what fuck it so you're you're

[1:40:35 - 1:40:42] ▶

referring to he he wanted to meet with you what was the message he will he sat on so the message

[1:40:42 - 1:40:48] ▶

i sat on was Dr. Greer providing me his contact information gotcha okay so that's what i sat on and

[1:40:48 - 1:40:54] ▶

so i i was just thinking every scenario on my head like oh fuck what what am i gonna what is this

[1:40:54 - 1:41:00] ▶

doing am i getting set up was part of that too i mean it's a percentage

[1:41:00 - 1:41:05] ▶

sure because i'm nervous you know i'm already kind of said my piece i'm nervous now the whole world

[1:41:05 - 1:41:10] ▶

knows what i disclosed and it was very uncomfortable i hate fucking being public but it's just it's

[1:41:10 - 1:41:18] ▶

something that needs to be done and he had uh i called him and he did not answer and he did not

[1:41:18 - 1:41:26] ▶

have a voicemail set so then i texted him and he responded immediately and he i have it i have

[1:41:26 - 1:41:33] ▶

the text messages and basically what he said he was gonna fly me out somewhere and he was going to be

[1:41:33 - 1:41:38] ▶

able to provide me documentation among other things that will help me with this but now that i came

[1:41:38 - 1:41:43] ▶

forward they these guys were working in that organization that i witnessed the doing this

[1:41:43 - 1:41:50] ▶

operation he had some insight to tell me and that's what we did we met up and you had the phone call

[1:41:50 - 1:41:55] ▶

of that and you have some details about where i met this gentleman particularly and uh where he

[1:41:55 - 1:42:02] ▶

flew me off to to provide me more information now why do you feel like he wanted to meet you in person

[1:42:02 - 1:42:08] ▶

versus just talking on the phone and video call that sort of thing like what was that i think it

[1:42:08 - 1:42:13] ▶

was establishing trust it's easy to talk to people or the phone getting face to face with people

[1:42:13 - 1:42:20] ▶

and having them tell you things now granted when him and i met we're sitting across from each other

[1:42:20 - 1:42:26] ▶

and i've said this in multiple interviews but i had my phone off because he had had this one that

[1:42:26 - 1:42:31] ▶

can detect any chips and i showed you the text message or the message that he sent me talking

[1:42:31 - 1:42:37] ▶

about why they did that and um which they're all chipped so um that's all i'm gonna say about that

[1:42:37 - 1:42:43] ▶

but i guess it was a chance to get the truth and i can tell when he was talking to me

[1:42:45 - 1:42:50] ▶

that he was very fidgety and very nervous because he doesn't know who i am and i don't know who he is

[1:42:50 - 1:42:56] ▶

so him being nervous but he looked through my background he looked at every possible detail about me

[1:42:56 - 1:43:02] ▶

so he knew everything so i know that he knew that wasn't some asset planted in trying to fish people out

[1:43:02 - 1:43:07] ▶

which i know is a concern of theirs which is why they're screening people heavily and do what they do

[1:43:08 - 1:43:12] ▶

so um which i was just as nervous and that's when he during that interview or um meet up

[1:43:13 - 1:43:20] ▶

that meeting that's when he provided me a site on it's a way to establish trust and i looked at the

[1:43:20 - 1:43:27] ▶

bullets and there were no struck primers nothing like that popped it and wrapped it put it on my lap

[1:43:27 - 1:43:33] ▶

like this and nobody else was armed at that point i kind of started getting to know him a little bit

[1:43:33 - 1:43:40] ▶

personally some personal details about who he is and what he does and you know other things you

[1:43:40 - 1:43:47] ▶

know he's got a family which is great because it tells me he's on the right side of things and he's

[1:43:47 - 1:43:51] ▶

loves his family very much as you should and um that kind of gave me hope that okay this guy

[1:43:51 - 1:43:58] ▶

actually is taking that into consideration which tells me everything and his body language was also

[1:43:58 - 1:44:02] ▶

what conveyed it to me too because he's very fidgety with his watch he's kind of like trying to

[1:44:02 - 1:44:07] ▶

adjust himself and it's like okay i know you're telling the truth because this is making you

[1:44:07 - 1:44:12] ▶

uncomfortable as much as it is making me and there was also sort of an apology that he gave to you

[1:44:12 - 1:44:19] ▶

can you talk about that a little he apologized um saying that he's sorry that we went through that

[1:44:19 - 1:44:24] ▶

that it's absolutely unnecessary and it's bullshit and that shouldn't be happening to anybody

[1:44:24 - 1:44:29] ▶

and he knows of instances where they yes they have murdered people not him directly but

[1:44:29 - 1:44:33] ▶

yeah he will never kill a patriot he will never kill innocent people but that guy will murder and kill

[1:44:33 - 1:44:39] ▶

bad guys as it should be because he's like a sheep dog and all of these guys that i'm working with

[1:44:39 - 1:44:44] ▶

are the same way they're all good people and some people have had confusion to say oh well we're

[1:44:44 - 1:44:49] ▶

good well the gunpoint with these guys and all of a sudden they're welcoming me in and giving me

[1:44:49 - 1:44:53] ▶

these this knowledge and trust no it's not the same people these are the good guys very these

[1:44:53 - 1:44:59] ▶

guys weren't involved with the operation you witnessed in 2000 no they were not but they are

[1:44:59 - 1:45:03] ▶

aware of those types of yes and they've been on similar operations as that to my understanding

[1:45:03 - 1:45:10] ▶

and so he showed you some things yes you've said you went underground i can't talk about any of this

[1:45:10 - 1:45:17] ▶

okay um i don't i don't i'm not going to ask you what you saw what i what i want to ask you is

[1:45:18 - 1:45:25] ▶

why did he show you that in the sense of why oh you what you could ask is what the things that

[1:45:27 - 1:45:33] ▶

he has been able to show you were proof um it was a way of him able to prove who he said who he

[1:45:33 - 1:45:39] ▶

really was that you what yes it wasn't like i can just take his word and just say okay i trust you

[1:45:39 - 1:45:47] ▶

yeah it was a way for them to say these are the real deal guys right because it's not like anybody

[1:45:47 - 1:45:52] ▶

can just see this shit right and i hope one day i can get to a point where i can talk about that

[1:45:52 - 1:45:57] ▶

yeah and um because it is it is mind blowing and i thought what i witnessed on in 14 15 years ago

[1:45:58 - 1:46:05] ▶

was mind blowing yes it is but now you actually see things face to face of what

[1:46:05 - 1:46:10] ▶

yeah you know because it be i'll put it this way

[1:46:12 - 1:46:15] ▶

that facility

[1:46:18 - 1:46:19] ▶

if these guys were to link up with two politicians and then give them a free access card to everything

[1:46:20 - 1:46:28] ▶

it would single-handedly blow the doors off of this whole chicaneery of

[1:46:29 - 1:46:35] ▶

misinformation and all the lies and all the deceit that are being there this would prove everything

[1:46:37 - 1:46:42] ▶

because what's stopping that from happening they're doing that right now but they're trying to plan it

[1:46:42 - 1:46:46] ▶

and what way i don't know but that's what their goal is okay i can't give any details about that

[1:46:47 - 1:46:52] ▶

being miced up and all this but i can tell you otherwise but they're upset a lot of them are upset

[1:46:52 - 1:46:59] ▶

i mean i guess i guess what i'm getting at is like what is what what's their objective with this

[1:46:59 - 1:47:07] ▶

like they want with reaching out to you and informing this partnership or relationship with you

[1:47:07 - 1:47:12] ▶

what is their ultimate motive because these are these are people who are first-hand participants in

[1:47:13 - 1:47:21] ▶

the program yes for 30 plus years yeah and so their pro disclosure to a certain extent pro-American

[1:47:21 - 1:47:29] ▶

pro-freedom pro-life you know obviously they don't like that people are being murdered over

[1:47:29 - 1:47:35] ▶

this kind of stuff so there's kind of factions within yes that's exactly what people call the

[1:47:35 - 1:47:39] ▶

program yes and and these are kind of considered the good guys yes who want to support some level

[1:47:39 - 1:47:46] ▶

of disclosure and restoring oversight yes by congress so the other reason is that these guys were

[1:47:46 - 1:47:55] ▶

somewhat tasked to try to go through us or infiltrate right i think what would have happened is

[1:47:55 - 1:48:03] ▶

these guys would have been whistleblowers or consider whistleblowers themselves not in a public

[1:48:03 - 1:48:08] ▶

fashion like i'm doing or anybody else that's in my shoes but i think what happened

[1:48:08 - 1:48:13] ▶

was now that i came forward and what i experienced is directly related and directly involved with

[1:48:14 - 1:48:21] ▶

what they've been doing it was more of a chance for them to say okay we can lay low but now we have

[1:48:21 - 1:48:27] ▶

a spokesperson for us that can get this information out and tell and help us get information out to

[1:48:27 - 1:48:32] ▶

the right people and i was successful and they'll be able to do that but i was able i was also

[1:48:32 - 1:48:38] ▶

successful and able to get them in contact with certain other prominent people do these guys these

[1:48:38 - 1:48:43] ▶

insiders have any fear of coming forward i personally have talked to some whistleblowers who will

[1:48:43 - 1:48:48] ▶

are allegedly afraid to speak because they will lose pension they will basically they and their

[1:48:48 - 1:48:53] ▶

family will not have a way to provide they they will lose everything okay if this is not done

[1:48:53 - 1:48:58] ▶

correctly and carefully okay and i again i don't know if these guys are coming forward i can't

[1:48:59 - 1:49:05] ▶

specifically say that i don't know i just maybe one day they will who knows what do you think needs to

[1:49:05 - 1:49:12] ▶

happen or you know if you can convey kind of what what these guys have said what needs to happen

[1:49:12 - 1:49:22] ▶

or change in order for more firsthand participants like them to be able to come forward like what

[1:49:22 - 1:49:28] ▶

the tables need to flip as far as the oh the majority of these people and these programs are good people

[1:49:29 - 1:49:34] ▶

that's what i i've from my own interactions with some of these people

[1:49:34 - 1:49:38] ▶

grand i'm not working with everybody right but the ones that i know very well now they're good people

[1:49:38 - 1:49:44] ▶

they got their heart and right place and they got the right mindset for this what would need to

[1:49:44 - 1:49:48] ▶

happen is that the tables need to turn as far as them flipping the tables on their own programs

[1:49:48 - 1:49:55] ▶

meaning taking control of them personally getting the bad guys are neutralizing that however

[1:49:55 - 1:50:01] ▶

because what people need to understand is that this group is the enforcement arm of the even the

[1:50:01 - 1:50:07] ▶

political corruption that's going on because they have assets in certain places and government

[1:50:07 - 1:50:12] ▶

local law enforcement federal law enforcement military everywhere so if they're able to single

[1:50:13 - 1:50:19] ▶

handily take the bad guys out or flip the script or get gain control of that because right now there's

[1:50:19 - 1:50:25] ▶

a war between the good and bad of this these factions the bad guys want to keep this secret and they

[1:50:25 - 1:50:31] ▶

want to keep this technology to themselves and they want to commit crimes against humanity with

[1:50:31 - 1:50:35] ▶

this technology and have this power and control while the good guys want this to come forward and

[1:50:35 - 1:50:41] ▶

everybody benefit from it and us as a species be able to survive also the fact that they know

[1:50:41 - 1:50:47] ▶

directly what is going on because they're living in this world this is their day to day job so to speak

[1:50:47 - 1:50:52] ▶

so I think now that they have an opportunity to understand that this is affecting other people

[1:50:53 - 1:50:58] ▶

besides me besides I mean it's affecting all of us because we could be we could really be far

[1:50:58 - 1:51:05] ▶

in life with this technology and not only that we could stop shooting down NHI craft

[1:51:05 - 1:51:14] ▶

because who's to say I don't I've never met any of them I don't know any ET's or NHI I can't never

[1:51:15 - 1:51:22] ▶

came face to face with them what I can tell you is that I know that the universe is massive and

[1:51:22 - 1:51:29] ▶

there's multi-dimensional universes or however this works with the theories that people have proposed

[1:51:29 - 1:51:34] ▶

and if that really is the case the possibility that we can come across a species that ain't going to

[1:51:34 - 1:51:40] ▶

be too friendly with us as a possibility so you're telling and this is what the concept is so

[1:51:40 - 1:51:46] ▶

this group is going to target them shoot them down in the deserts all over the world

[1:51:46 - 1:51:51] ▶

in secluded areas and they are going to come across at a point maybe someday that they're

[1:51:51 - 1:52:00] ▶

going to shoot down the wrong type and maybe that type becomes a type that decides that hey you

[1:52:00 - 1:52:05] ▶

know what we don't need these people around we don't need this species around and they decide

[1:52:05 - 1:52:11] ▶

that we as people to don't even protect in that nonsense have to pay for it meaning that our

[1:52:11 - 1:52:20] ▶

lives end as they can instantly do it if they wanted to with what I have been told and what I've

[1:52:20 - 1:52:26] ▶

understand how powerful they are if they're able to travel inter-dimensionally and through time

[1:52:26 - 1:52:32] ▶

and space and be able to show up here and go to any other place that they want to go and be able

[1:52:32 - 1:52:39] ▶

to control craft through consciousness and be able to pretty much the way that they even said that

[1:52:39 - 1:52:44] ▶

and this is just speculation of course because I've never seen this personally but the way that they

[1:52:44 - 1:52:48] ▶

are actually able to be go through things be inter-dimensional so can be in 3D or just have

[1:52:48 - 1:52:54] ▶

the image of but they can also pass through solid objects like it's almost them their molecules

[1:52:54 - 1:52:58] ▶

are atoms splitting between all of those to separate them somehow so that's just speculation but

[1:52:58 - 1:53:04] ▶

that's what I've been told and so if you have something that advanced in some some very smart

[1:53:04 - 1:53:10] ▶

that can end our lives this whole planet if they wanted to and for some reason they choose not to

[1:53:10 - 1:53:15] ▶

but yet we keep shooting them down and that means it's just a human species right right so so you

[1:53:15 - 1:53:22] ▶

described kind of the next step forward is for the good guys to kind of flip the tables on the bad

[1:53:22 - 1:53:27] ▶

guys yes but they're what about the the whole side of like legislation I mean is that still an

[1:53:27 - 1:53:36] ▶

important factor to well that allows certain things to happen to where there's involvement from

[1:53:36 - 1:53:42] ▶

both sides because there's there's laws that have to be abided by there's has to be milk there

[1:53:42 - 1:53:48] ▶

has to be military involvement to an extent and there's also has to be a law enforcement effort

[1:53:48 - 1:53:55] ▶

because essentially there's a lot of laws being broken with all of these and that's kind of

[1:53:55 - 1:53:58] ▶

the thing that maybe they can get them on a technicality to get some laws passed that then now all

[1:53:58 - 1:54:03] ▶

of a sudden these guys can't hide within that because now there's proof that there's stuff going on

[1:54:03 - 1:54:07] ▶

that the law enforcement like US marshals for example because they have jurisdiction everywhere it

[1:54:07 - 1:54:11] ▶

could be the one sex acute whatever they need to right that's just that's just technically speaking

[1:54:11 - 1:54:17] ▶

and what about like how how can we get more people like the insiders you're working with to come

[1:54:17 - 1:54:24] ▶

forward are there you know it seems there seems to be kind of like yeah we have whistleblower

[1:54:24 - 1:54:29] ▶

protection but it's it's really not enough it's really not enough and that's exactly their concern

[1:54:29 - 1:54:35] ▶

yeah so what do they think needs to be done from that aspect well these politicians need to get

[1:54:35 - 1:54:40] ▶

their shit together and they can't be corrupt and like we're seeing with the whole pushback of

[1:54:40 - 1:54:45] ▶

they admit they don't mean and all that kind of stuff because these aerospace companies are paying

[1:54:45 - 1:54:49] ▶

some of these guys so of course hey we'll throw you x amount of money if you play ball for us and

[1:54:49 - 1:54:54] ▶

make it to where it's hard for them to accomplish what they want because in all of a sudden the

[1:54:54 - 1:54:57] ▶

game's up these aerospace companies know what's going on they're going to pretend that they don't but

[1:54:57 - 1:55:01] ▶

they have access to this shit and it may not even be the executives of these companies who know

[1:55:01 - 1:55:06] ▶

what's going on but the contractors and the people that are within these groups know exactly what's

[1:55:06 - 1:55:11] ▶

going on have access to it and it's a very it's relatively a small number sound like every single

[1:55:11 - 1:55:17] ▶

Boeing personnel or Rocky Martin or Raytheon or Northrop Grumman for that matter would have

[1:55:17 - 1:55:24] ▶

every single person knows what's going on they don't only certain groups and that too and to

[1:55:24 - 1:55:29] ▶

touch quickly on what you were talking about shooting down these craft are you aware of in the

[1:55:29 - 1:55:34] ▶

program with these insiders if there's kind of an ethical tug of war going on that 100% okay

[1:55:34 - 1:55:38] ▶

and that's kind of why they they feel the need to to one of the votes information to me to

[1:55:39 - 1:55:43] ▶

spread it to you guys and to the world for that matter the other aspect of it too is over these

[1:55:44 - 1:55:50] ▶

installations that civilian aircraft are being targeted as well when they're flying into these

[1:55:50 - 1:55:54] ▶

temporary flight restricted areas or TFRs any some people they will before flight when it goes

[1:55:54 - 1:56:00] ▶

see some scenic views of some of these areas that are beautiful nearby but it happened to stumble

[1:56:00 - 1:56:05] ▶

into the area just like we did at the wrong point of time and now they get hit with these

[1:56:05 - 1:56:11] ▶

experimental weapon well you can't even call them experimental because they're using them

[1:56:11 - 1:56:14] ▶

they're not known you know they're relatively yeah are you aware of what these offensive

[1:56:15 - 1:56:20] ▶

UAP weapons are how they work I can't give specifics to it it's a lot of them I've only been I

[1:56:20 - 1:56:26] ▶

only know of a few but as far as the other ones that are more cutting edge because like again they

[1:56:26 - 1:56:31] ▶

keep refining their systems because they want to make sure that there's they can just take them out

[1:56:31 - 1:56:36] ▶

with a punt the single hit and have an easier time doing it I would suppose you know that's just

[1:56:36 - 1:56:41] ▶

speculation but they're always refining their stuff there's always refining their reverse

[1:56:41 - 1:56:47] ▶

engineer technologies as well which is why they test these weapon systems on them so they had

[1:56:47 - 1:56:52] ▶

to explain that they put them they put craft on balloons have them go up to high altitude and then

[1:56:52 - 1:56:58] ▶

they hit them with these weapons because there's nobody aboard right and then they also have them

[1:56:58 - 1:57:02] ▶

stationary on the ground and they can hit them at different angles to make sure that it's but what

[1:57:02 - 1:57:07] ▶

they have explained to me was that their EMP proof what they have they are they're not vulnerable to

[1:57:07 - 1:57:18] ▶

any kind of modern ammunition like rifle bullets or 50 cal machine gun ammo or ammunition

[1:57:18 - 1:57:25] ▶

around missiles can't penetrate through the you're talking about UAP that they have yes okay that they

[1:57:25 - 1:57:31] ▶

they as in these this groups if they really want retrieved well that they've designed and made

[1:57:32 - 1:57:38] ▶

oh reverse engineer yes the ARV reverse engineer yes that most of the ones that are coming out and

[1:57:38 - 1:57:43] ▶

this is what some of the insiders had said they are having a very hard time distinguishing the real

[1:57:43 - 1:57:48] ▶

craft from an hi compared to the ones that they've got that's how far they've came with this

[1:57:49 - 1:57:56] ▶

technology they can't identify one from the other it's getting to that point so it's practically

[1:57:56 - 1:58:03] ▶

been a year since like almost to like within a week yes you came forward correct what's next for

[1:58:03 - 1:58:09] ▶

you and like has your motivation for coming forward now change like has your objective now changed

[1:58:09 - 1:58:17] ▶

now that you've met with the insider and kind of gotten involved yes yes it has because

[1:58:17 - 1:58:23] ▶

I feel like I can now help these guys in any way that I possibly cannot have been doing that

[1:58:24 - 1:58:29] ▶

behind the scenes and it's good it feels good to do that it feels good to be on the right set of

[1:58:29 - 1:58:34] ▶

history with this and when everything does come to a head hopefully there can be some positive

[1:58:34 - 1:58:38] ▶

movements that blow this all wide open and we can all benefit we could all be better people

[1:58:38 - 1:58:43] ▶

at the end of the day that's what I want that's my mission the other aspect is obviously being

[1:58:43 - 1:58:48] ▶

provided the information that people are being taken and used in these programs that doesn't

[1:58:48 - 1:58:53] ▶

say well with me when I heard that I couldn't sleep for a week there's many times where I've

[1:58:53 - 1:58:59] ▶

hidden in the bathroom and literally busted down fucking crime because it's like I can't I couldn't

[1:58:59 - 1:59:03] ▶

do anything to stop that at that time which sucks to know that you're completely helpless so I

[1:59:03 - 1:59:11] ▶

feel like it's my mission to get the right oversight to an extent and maybe there can be things

[1:59:11 - 1:59:16] ▶

that can happen on a on a global scale that get these programs to be known programs and maybe

[1:59:16 - 1:59:22] ▶

the right ways can be done with these where people don't have to be sedated people don't have to

[1:59:22 - 1:59:27] ▶

be treated as if they're biological equipment or pink assets as they call them that they can

[1:59:27 - 1:59:33] ▶

actually have people gain a foot hold and do this peacefully and make us all better people

[1:59:33 - 1:59:38] ▶

and everybody can live happily everybody can live evolved we can stop paying utilities because

[1:59:39 - 1:59:45] ▶

free energy will be a thing maybe my omega fast cars but maybe I can get some faster shit that I

[1:59:45 - 1:59:50] ▶

can drive around or fly around them for that matter however that comes about but you know I think

[1:59:50 - 1:59:56] ▶

I think what the optimism is that our world can be significantly better but we have to go through

[1:59:57 - 2:00:05] ▶

some very hard times for this to happen I don't have children but I know you do and I know that

[2:00:05 - 2:00:11] ▶

your children do benefit from having a better world that they can grow up and experience and not

[2:00:11 - 2:00:16] ▶

have to go through the corruption and see what we're dealing with those people right now who

[2:00:16 - 2:00:20] ▶

understand what's going on and I know these insiders families also deserve the same you know like

[2:00:20 - 2:00:25] ▶

I said I don't want any money from this all I want is for this to come forward and all I want

[2:00:25 - 2:00:30] ▶

this is this world to get better and change that's my mission you know anybody who has any problems

[2:00:30 - 2:00:37] ▶

with me not accepting money tough shit I make my own money I'm not bought and paid for like most

[2:00:37 - 2:00:43] ▶

of these people who try to keep the shit hidden or secret or threaten them they can threaten me

[2:00:43 - 2:00:49] ▶

all they want but all it's doing is pissing us off and get us pissed off enough and we actually

[2:00:49 - 2:00:53] ▶

do something that actually because here's the problem as much as I would like to say or believe

[2:00:53 - 2:00:59] ▶

me everybody because what I'm saying can be verified to an extent which I choose not to because

[2:00:59 - 2:01:06] ▶

of keeping people safe in the process as you guys know but be skeptical because there are people

[2:01:06 - 2:01:16] ▶

coming forward who should not be or they're mudding the waters to an extent and they're very known

[2:01:16 - 2:01:21] ▶

people I don't get in drama of this shit I don't care to I've got my direction of where I'm going

[2:01:21 - 2:01:27] ▶

and that's what I'm focused on I let other people gossip and talk while I'm just focused so that's

[2:01:27 - 2:01:33] ▶

what they can do people need to understand that yes as much as I want people to believe what I'm saying

[2:01:33 - 2:01:38] ▶

but at the end of the day disclosure is about evidence it's not about testimony it's not about

[2:01:38 - 2:01:43] ▶

what I say if I had proof so do you think evidence is coming at some point very much so how it will

[2:01:43 - 2:01:52] ▶

happen I have no idea but I hope it it does and I hope it comes full force because then it's going

[2:01:52 - 2:01:59] ▶

to cut it catch a lot of people with a pants down people who pretend in the government that they

[2:01:59 - 2:02:03] ▶

don't know what's going on but they fully will do because they're getting paid from it under the

[2:02:03 - 2:02:07] ▶

table right so it's going to be interesting how oh yeah you didn't know that this existed but here's

[2:02:07 - 2:02:12] ▶

documentation or some people are saying that you were being paid for it but yet they got this

[2:02:13 - 2:02:17] ▶

material or whatever it is that they have that's actually out and now people know for a fact oh

[2:02:17 - 2:02:23] ▶

shit and HIRT exists guys and we've had access to this and we've been in communication to an

[2:02:23 - 2:02:30] ▶

extent for a very long time and I just got to ask two quick closing questions if you don't mind

[2:02:30 - 2:02:36] ▶

I think it was on the total disclosure podcast you talked about that you had been in

[2:02:37 - 2:02:41] ▶

contact with David Grush can you comment on that I've talked to him and that's all I can say okay

[2:02:41 - 2:02:47] ▶

and two this is just kind of a personal one because I've seen this balanced around a lot I have seen

[2:02:47 - 2:02:52] ▶

many people call you Joey and Joey your publicist you two are not the same person and Joey are

[2:02:52 - 2:02:59] ▶

you Michael's publicist anything other than a private citizen who's investigating Michael's case

[2:02:59 - 2:03:03] ▶

random guy are you paid for by Michael no I know I can imagine that's the skepticism it's like it's

[2:03:03 - 2:03:13] ▶

just like you know Reddit most people are just anonymous I'm Reddit and I'm just

[2:03:13 - 2:03:18] ▶

remained anonymous well you know I'm showing my face now for the first time and just trying to

[2:03:19 - 2:03:25] ▶

crack that open a little bit yeah well I mean there'll be a right time where everything can be

[2:03:25 - 2:03:29] ▶

developed and everybody can sleep better you know but I just saw what you were doing a reddit

[2:03:29 - 2:03:35] ▶

it's like you know what you're a very good person to get information out I don't know anybody

[2:03:35 - 2:03:38] ▶

else and thanks to you thanks to you you've been able to link me up with people who have true yeah

[2:03:38 - 2:03:45] ▶

you you're very good at networking too and that's part of the reason why I'm successful is because

[2:03:45 - 2:03:49] ▶

networking is key and that's I use the same approach with disclosure so if I'm in touch with people

[2:03:49 - 2:03:55] ▶

who are pivotal with this movement then I'm able to contribute in ways that I possibly can

[2:03:55 - 2:03:59] ▶

to bring this forward to an extent or however far we can get and you introduce me to him you know

[2:03:59 - 2:04:06] ▶

which is great because you guys are wonderful guys very good people you know so it's good talking

[2:04:06 - 2:04:11] ▶

to you guys and just even shooting a ship when we're not talking about this stuff you know so I

[2:04:11 - 2:04:16] ▶

can't believe we're sitting here I know it's been a long time because it's been a long time I'm

[2:04:16 - 2:04:21] ▶

you know if I had time to go out there I'd definitely go out there and see where you know what

[2:04:21 - 2:04:25] ▶

you're a part of the world is like yeah see what you do day to day and you get to experience

[2:04:25 - 2:04:30] ▶

you start to keep busy with everything yeah I'm surprised I'm not completely bald yet but it's

[2:04:30 - 2:04:35] ▶

getting there but I got some hymns I'm trying so hopefully that helps but you know if not then I'm

[2:04:35 - 2:04:41] ▶

just gonna be another whistleblower that's called well this was awesome I you know so grateful that

[2:04:41 - 2:04:49] ▶

you sat down with us and just yeah excited to kind of see how things unfold moving forward so

[2:04:49 - 2:04:58] ▶

well I from what I kind of understand it may be pivotal to a point where we get the grip on the

[2:04:58 - 2:05:05] ▶

right way and it comes forward and everybody understands it doesn't have to be secret anymore

[2:05:05 - 2:05:11] ▶

can 그�

[2:05:19 - 2:05:49] ▶