Transcript: Underwater Area 51: Best Evidence Aliens Live Deep Under Our Oceans | Richard Dolan

we just had this lady on the other day who was friends with this dude that i just learned about

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named joe i'm sure you've heard of him joseph farrell oh yeah i know joe very well you know

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him personally yeah we're friends oh really yeah i know i just learned about this guy yeah yeah

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and i was just blown away by some of this stuff yeah what do you make of that research i mean

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there's the title of that book what was it swastikas and flying saucers yeah well joseph

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has i don't know where he is now because he wrote his first like basically he became known

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as the nazi ufo guy okay like that was really his original training yeah was in um what's it called

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patristics so studying uh eastern orthodox religiosity like eastern orthodox christianity

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he's like a bishop in the in the in the catholic church of of russia or something yeah i think

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well i think orthodox okay orthodox okay eastern orthodox some version of that and um but he he's

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a really highly intelligent man of course and he got into studying the nazi ufo connection and looking

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at the foo fighters and uh particularly in europe as potentially nazi third reich technology and so

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he went into that in several books however you know the real the thing with joseph i mean you

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would have to ask him directly about this what he thinks today but i know that he became very very

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open to an extraterrestrial interpretation of the ufo phenomenon over time because like in the early

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years i think it was easy to interpret all of his work as saying all of this phenomenon is uh secret

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tech earthbound secret tech and i don't think that he's in that place at least the last few times that

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we've talked i didn't really think that he was um so i don't know you know we're always evolving we're

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always like we are constantly thinking through like what do i uh what do i think this year as

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opposed to last year and it's important because uh speaking for myself i've i've gone to a lot of

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different places as to like what i think is actually happening when we talk about ufos or now uap

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i always love talking are we rolling steve yeah i'm wondering steve are we good we are rolling oh

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beautiful so i always love uh the opportunity when the opportunity arises to talk to somebody

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like yourself because i've only talked to maybe three i roughly three maybe four people on this

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show that have been studying this topic for over 25 30 years like yourself yeah most people have been

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in this stuff just you know for a few years recently since like the emergence of youtube um but i think it

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was like the first one was james fox then uh jason georgiani steven greer these types of folks

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and uh you i've noticed that you've been in a lot of some of like the biggest documentaries on this

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topic so um it's always just so interesting to hear people's takes on this stuff when they've been

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studying studying for so long um but for people that don't know who you are can you just give like a

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brief summary of how you got into the stuff in the first place and what you've been doing ever since

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steve my audio sounds really odd maybe it's just my my uh my headphones okay all right uh yeah yeah

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so um i got involved in this subject a little over 30 years ago so it was in the like 1993 94

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at that time i was trying to pursue a completely different life i was working on a phd in history

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cold war studies at the university of rochester in upstate new york and i was very much into that

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i had previous to that i'd studied a lot of european history a lot of diplomatic history

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so that was really my background and i was in a bookstore in upstate new york in syracuse actually

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and i think it was 1994 and i saw on a display stand a copy of a book by timothy good called above top

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secret which is kind of a classic in the ufo field and uh it was the subtitle of that book that really

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caught my attention the worldwide ufo cover-up and i was like oh wow it's like it's 1994 and

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i didn't know anything about ufos uh like essentially literally nothing and i'd only heard

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i'd seen you know some old documentaries i'd watched leonard nimoy on in search of and seen some of those

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things but i really didn't know anything and i'd only heard claims of cover-up and this and that

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so i remember flipping through tim's book and i thought wow he's got some like interesting

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documents he had names of people that i was studying in my own research and i thought oh wow

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ufos departments that i was looking into and uh ufo connections there and i thought you know this is

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like a completely like unofficial version of history here is this true or is this nonsense right and

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that was really my question so i bought the book and i like the book it's a great book and at the

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same time i got on to what was then the baby version of the internet uh all of the usenet groups

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people yelling and screaming at each other but there were some good uh threads there and there

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were a couple of people that i really learned from and i just went down this rabbit hole and i thought

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i'm going to spend two or three months of my life and i want to find out is there something to this or is

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there not something to this is this a waste of time uh like all of the other people in the academic

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community were assuming at that time or is there something here because here i was i was studying

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basically the presidency of harry truman i'm looking at the early cold war 1950 and i'm thinking

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there were claims that there was a very big ufo cover-up going on by then and these were not

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trivial claims and i just thought what i don't like is having a big question mark hanging over

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my head on an area where i was trying to become an expert and i just wanted to know i just wanted to

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know and so i thought i'd spend a couple of months to look into it and i got hooked i got totally hooked

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like i discovered there were some very powerful declassified u.s government documents that were

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obtained through freedom of information which itself didn't really get going until the late 1970s

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um when jimmy carter kind of strengthened foia at that time and so at that time a lot of

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very interesting u.s government military documents were released

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that they wouldn't prove that ufos are aliens but they did prove absolutely proved that

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these flying saucers that the government was telling the world nothing to this it's all hoaxes

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misidentification they proved that no actually military personnel were seeing objects described as

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flying saucer shape invading sensitive airspace that they were not supposed to be doing engaging in

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maneuvers that were supposed to be impossible being chased by our aircraft and essentially playing

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cat and mouse games over and over again right for years and years and you know you read and then

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you read uh statements by the director of scientific intelligence of the cia in 1952 a man named h

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marshall chanwell who's telling his boss walter beetle smith director of the cia

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that uh this phenomena is uh being seen at uh such altitudes and over sensitive military installations

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in such a manner that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles

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that's a direct quote and you read that and you're like how else can he put it other than saying boss i think

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we're being invaded so i read enough of these documents early on to think there's absolutely something that is at least worth

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investigating and then that opens up like a thousand other questions like where are the other academicians

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where's the university crowd looking into this you would think if you want to debunk this fine debunk it

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let's look at the actual evidence here and deal with it but they would never deal with it they would never

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deal with the fact that like why was the first director of the cia a man named roscoe helen cotter

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a member of a ufo organization called nikep in the in the 1950s until he clearly under pressure

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resigned in 1962 just before nikep was trying to get congressional hearings back then so the cia was

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created the same year roswell happened right or was that a year no 1947 1947 right although you could

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see the predecessor organizations the oss during world war and then something called the cig which was in

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1946 going into 47 and then out of that you get the central intelligence agency that's all with the

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national security reorg that happened in 1947 so what do you think was going on what do you think

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happened at roswell what i think happened at roswell was i think there was the recovery of

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of something that was highly exotic that we probably did not make you don't say roswell you don't say

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corona you don't think it was any human manufacturing or any human technology no because i had so so um

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jason i think you know who jason georgiani is right i had him on recently and he was explaining to me

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how general corso i think it was had some sort of report of the roswell crash and he mentioned stuff

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like velcro kevlar night vision all these human technologies being recovered at that crash site yeah

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philip corso he wasn't a general but he was um an officer in the u.s army and uh in the late 50s early

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60s worked under a very important general named arthur trudeau uh where he said in his book uh

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the day after roswell was published in 1997 he stated yes my assignment at that time was to um

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we had we had our own little cache of alien tech essentially and corso said his job was to

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kind of segue that out to private industry as quietly as he could and he did say things like kevlar and

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things like uh high tensile fibers and things like i think fiber optics perhaps i think yeah i remember

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night vision and velcro night vision velcro i forgot yeah but i could so well that's that doesn't uh

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that doesn't debunk the roswell i think corso is very much uh stating that roswell did happen as

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something extraordinary but like so the the the implications of that would mean that either a

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aliens use velcro and kevlar and night vision or b that it was just some man-made thing well no there's

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a third possibility which is that you know when you're we're being all theoretical because like i wasn't

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there we weren't there but if you are imagining that you've got a team of brilliant human scientists

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studying this like magical alien tech that they can't figure out they still might be able to

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generate some pretty interesting ideas as a result of that which might be uh variations you know of

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some of the alien tech i don't think that's impossible at all so velcro yeah i don't really

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know if the aliens use velcro be kind of a handy thing uh for your sneakers or whatever footwear they got

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um but other uh i mean it seems to me that if you've got something as exotic as technology that

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theoretically could be thousands of years ahead of us or more that a you could struggle in figuring out

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a lot of these things material science uh i think notoriously is said to be one of the most important

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areas that human sciences are trying to replicate and material science yeah like um

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you know just the other day hal putoff is on rogan and he's talking yeah yeah and and hal has talked

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about the so-called meta material so what is the meta material it's this artifact that uh was sent out

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to art bell back in the day in the 90s and then art uh entrusted to linda moulton how and then linda

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over a number of years kind of passed it out to different scientists including hal putoff and eric davis

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they looked at this and so what they found was that it was layered with i mean ultra ultra tiny

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layers of bismuth and magnesium and i think titanium in ways that we still do not necessarily know how

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to manufacture um and so that would be the material science and that would be an important thing like

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you'd need to master if you want to do what flying saucers do you need to have the materials that are

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sufficient to be able to withstand whatever you need them to do or in the case of what how speculated

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uh to what was his phrasing he said uh to serve as um a wave guide uh for high frequency electromagnetic

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waves in the terahertz range when i heard him say that the first time i'm like what the hell are you

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talking about but really what it seemed like is a kind of anti-gravity anti-gravity type of a thing so

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you'd have light or electromagnetic radiation hitting this thing and somehow in some way that

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i cannot understand uh it would produce a kind of effect on gravity wow interesting yeah so in other

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words this is really interesting to me because you know normally for years and years you're thinking

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how do they do anti-gravity pardon me some kind of propulsion system some kind of engine but no if

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it's in the skin of the craft itself yeah that's a really kind of nifty solution and maybe that's

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part of what they do wow yeah the only uh my introduction to this whole anti-gravity theory was

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the bob lazar story and how he talked about that little uh basketball size uh reactor yeah being inside

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the craft or whatever and it somehow like repelled things away and he explained it it was a great

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explanation that made sense to my brain how basically you like you're falling through space by

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creating this crazy like heart-shaped propulsion uh pocket right oh this is above my my pay grade

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yeah understanding it too but uh there's a couple of different theories that people have had as to

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how these craft do what they do this episode of the podcast is brought to you by my good friends at

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order today thank you verso for sponsoring this episode i'll just finish answering your first

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question which i didn't properly do like how did i where did i go and how did i get into this

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so i started i'm looking at um all of these early documents that's really what got me in so i was

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always a document kind of a person i wanted to know uh what was the as far as we can understand

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the classified attitude that was taken during the 1940s and 50s especially uh that's where i started

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and i i will just say and we can go as far as we decide here but that the conclusion was very clear

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that the u.s national security community knew some elements knew this was real this was not made by the

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russians this is not made by us someone else is operating this we did not have control over it

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and absolute secrecy had to be maintained over this at all costs like that was a conclusion i came to

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pretty early on in looking at these documents and uh and then just reading book after book after book

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as i was able to scrounge them up at the time this is back in the 1990s and um and i published my first

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book on this in 2000 i self-published it and then and then yeah in in 2000 that was still kind of a

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tough thing to do uh but then i i got picked up by a different publisher and um and then that was that

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was the start of my entry into this field back in the early 2000s and i have never left it's it's kept

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me um in its grip ever since so your theory was that the your conclusion was that the national

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security state knows about something that is not from this earth yeah and has that conclusion evolved

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at all over the years yes it's it's developed and it's deepened i guess i could say i've never

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i've never since then formed the conclusion that it's fake or that it's not a concern i've never gone

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there but there's different variations of how it works like i remember when i first published that book

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i got an email from astronaut edgar mitchell who uh was apollo 14 and uh we it was lucky for me

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he was the first uh kind of famous person to endorse my work it was like great oh wow moonwalking

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astronaut and but he said to me look your your theory about the cover-up is not exactly right

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it's like he said he believed that my theory was that it's like the government and

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like the president's in on and everyone's in on the secrecy and i don't really know if i truly

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believe that but maybe more back then and he said this is like i don't know 2001 2002 early he said

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i don't think it works like that it's it's very privatized you know there's a lot of a lot of uh

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fingers in this pie and it's not all uh federal government and um and so over the years like

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a number of people in that crowd including help hud off and including a number of other folks

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would drop me a little little drops along the way little breadcrumbs um and um indicating like

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we've got a privatized system like more and more you look at it it's there's government there's

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classified elements to this but there is also an element that is beyond government yeah and it's

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kind of nebulous like who are these guys is it all is it all think tanks and corporations or is it

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something else and i don't know the full answer to that to this day but uh but that's a big part of

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this so you're dealing with a kind of a labyrinth of secrecy and to the extent that it's privatized

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makes it much more of a challenge for people to use like freedom of information for example right

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right well that's by design right yeah yeah i think so so that all of that was an evolution through

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my years of looking into this i have to say uh one of the uh biggest turning points for me in this

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whole topic was that documentary that you were a part of um about paul benowitz um was it the magic

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man magic man yeah oh wow that was uh mark pilkington i believe i did that one that's back in 2005

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six yeah that's early that blew my mind that totally that totally blew my mind um such a first of all such

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a well done movie and uh two it really like was eye-opening to see to like the the extent that the

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uh the intelligence people and the people in the air force nsa would all work together to

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basically scramble the mind of one individual just to alter public perception of something yeah that's

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an interesting one because to this day uh the interpretation of what happened with paul benowitz

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is it's a that is still an open question in my opinion oh really well to the extent that what

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why why was uh air force office special investigations or cia possibly or any of these

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other groups going after paul benowitz to screw with his head they were like uh a great book on

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this was done by greg bishop called project beta project beta yeah it's it's a very fine book i don't

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fully agree with every conclusion that greg has but he did a really excellent job and he needs uh he

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the reserves kudos for that but the the basic question is what so paul for people who don't

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know this paul benowitz was a uh kind of a small u.s defense contractor in the 1970s he uh lived right

[0:21:02 - 0:21:09] ▶

near kirtland air force base in uh new mexico and he's able to see uh and by he's by the manzano

[0:21:09 - 0:21:16] ▶

weapon storage area there i think trying to remember this now anyway so he's watching things going on over

[0:21:16 - 0:21:23] ▶

there like bizarre aerial activity right and he's got he's got sophisticated tracking information

[0:21:23 - 0:21:29] ▶

equipment and things like this to to look at it and he's convinced that there are flying saucers or

[0:21:29 - 0:21:33] ▶

something like that happening and he's a good patriotic american he literally wrote to president

[0:21:33 - 0:21:39] ▶

reagan uh after 1981 about this wow like saying you've got to get on top of it like and so he was

[0:21:39 - 0:21:45] ▶

becoming uh a hassle and a potential security risk for the people over at kirtland whatever they were

[0:21:45 - 0:21:53] ▶

doing so greg argued and i cannot remember what uh the magic man documentary actually argued here

[0:21:53 - 0:21:59] ▶

i think the claim was that essentially like 30 000 foot view is that he was a conduit of disinformation

[0:21:59 - 0:22:04] ▶

in the ufo community to poison the well of the ufo community because they knew there were soviet spies

[0:22:04 - 0:22:09] ▶

there yeah that well that's potential okay uh that's what i took from it there's definitely

[0:22:09 - 0:22:16] ▶

espionage and there's definitely the attempt to muddy the waters of the ufo community but the question

[0:22:16 - 0:22:23] ▶

is what was paul bennewitz actually observing so was he observing um advanced u.s defense systems that

[0:22:23 - 0:22:30] ▶

were then being tested or was he seeing something more than that and and i tend to think that maybe a

[0:22:30 - 0:22:35] ▶

little bit of both i don't think it was all just uh uh that they were only protecting their own tech

[0:22:35 - 0:22:41] ▶

i guess that's my own position i think i think bennewitz was seeing things that were not not all

[0:22:41 - 0:22:47] ▶

ours and i only say that because when first of all there were a number of other people who are

[0:22:47 - 0:22:52] ▶

associated with this who firmly believed he was seeing more than that but also when you look at the

[0:22:52 - 0:22:56] ▶

the uh history of violations of sensitive airspace of u.s bases across the entire u.s this is an old

[0:22:56 - 0:23:05] ▶

story so it's not a unique thing to kirtland it's something that and and through the 1940s and 50s

[0:23:05 - 0:23:11] ▶

and 60s and 70s and 80s that was all still happening it never stopped and so i think it's very premature

[0:23:11 - 0:23:17] ▶

to just dismiss it all as saying he was only looking at our own secret tech i actually don't believe

[0:23:17 - 0:23:23] ▶

that um but the fact that they went in and screwed with him and convinced him that it was aliens

[0:23:23 - 0:23:30] ▶

and allowed him to convince himself that's what richard dode would say and richard dode was very

[0:23:30 - 0:23:38] ▶

much involved in all of that wasn't there a part of that documentary where they claimed the nsa moved

[0:23:38 - 0:23:43] ▶

in across the street and was beaming information into his house saying that the aliens were trying

[0:23:43 - 0:23:47] ▶

to commune or they were aliens trying to communicate with him they were coming to earth because they're

[0:23:47 - 0:23:50] ▶

playing it right out of water they're going to be here in 15 years or something is that magic man i

[0:23:50 - 0:23:54] ▶

actually can't remember that so that's that's what i remember from the magic man documentary maybe yeah

[0:23:54 - 0:23:59] ▶

you know maybe yeah and then there was the whole part about the cattle mutilation which was wild

[0:23:59 - 0:24:07] ▶

you know how they were doing the underground testing for they were mining uh is this a myrna

[0:24:07 - 0:24:12] ▶

hansen case is that there's a all this was going on at this time so there were cattle mutilations

[0:24:12 - 0:24:17] ▶

happening all in the mid and late 70s out in the midwest and out in the rockies and uh and benowitz

[0:24:17 - 0:24:25] ▶

benowitz got like really really really deep into this that is for sure and uh he hooked up with uh

[0:24:25 - 0:24:32] ▶

university of wyoming leo sprinkle who used to do uh hypnotic regressions of people and there was a

[0:24:32 - 0:24:38] ▶

woman her name was myrna hansen and she was uh god i can't remember did she she witnessed

[0:24:38 - 0:24:47] ▶

the cattle mutilation i think cattle being lifted up but she was also uh supposedly taken to an

[0:24:47 - 0:24:53] ▶

underground facility herself and leo sprinkle did the regression and benowitz i think was there and

[0:24:53 - 0:25:00] ▶

they all got really deep into this and benowitz eventually was uh committed for at least briefly

[0:25:00 - 0:25:06] ▶

for psychiatric evaluation like in the late 80s it this really got to him it really messed him up and

[0:25:06 - 0:25:12] ▶

it uh it seriously damaged his life it's very sad and and it does seem like he was being used

[0:25:12 - 0:25:20] ▶

for disinformation yes i think that's absolutely true and and um i wrote about this in one of my

[0:25:20 - 0:25:27] ▶

books my second volume of history uh called ufos in the national security state and my my feeling was

[0:25:27 - 0:25:35] ▶

you look at the the mid and late 70s and two important things were happening to threaten

[0:25:35 - 0:25:42] ▶

the secrecy of the ufo subject at that time one was as we mentioned the release of documents of

[0:25:42 - 0:25:47] ▶

freedom of information this was a new thing this had never happened before you know in the 50s and

[0:25:47 - 0:25:53] ▶

60s the u.s air force could say we don't know anything about these ufos i mean it's a little bit

[0:25:53 - 0:25:58] ▶

uh it's obviously people are making mistaken assumptions and and things like this but we're not

[0:25:58 - 0:26:04] ▶

really into that we have this project blue book and we're not really finding any evidence of aliens

[0:26:04 - 0:26:08] ▶

and they could get away with that until in the late 70s researchers were petitioning the government

[0:26:08 - 0:26:15] ▶

for documents pertaining to ufos and holy cow like they got a lot of them proving that the air force was

[0:26:15 - 0:26:22] ▶

lying they were lying through their teeth for years and so that was one thing so the freedom of

[0:26:22 - 0:26:28] ▶

information act was a threat to the secrecy and if you're if you're on the other side of that trying

[0:26:28 - 0:26:35] ▶

to guard the secrets you have to be thinking what is our exposure here what do we have to worry about

[0:26:35 - 0:26:40] ▶

is if they shake the tree enough is something going to fall out of that tree that's really compromising

[0:26:40 - 0:26:45] ▶

right like that's like what came out was compromising enough but anything worse that's one problem the

[0:26:45 - 0:26:51] ▶

other problem was this was when ufo crash retrievals were starting to become a thing in researchers it's

[0:26:51 - 0:27:00] ▶

all in the late 70s this all happened at once prong number one was foia prong number two is crash

[0:27:00 - 0:27:04] ▶

retrievals and so we have like people like stanton friedman researching roswell for the first time

[0:27:04 - 0:27:10] ▶

things like this uh but there were other crash retrievals that people were looking into and or revisiting

[0:27:10 - 0:27:16] ▶

uh there was a researcher no longer around called leonard stringfield who back in the 70s and 80s was

[0:27:16 - 0:27:22] ▶

actively cultivating um ex-air force and ex-military people getting all kinds of stories about crash

[0:27:22 - 0:27:29] ▶

retrievals it was it was kind of a first like no one was a magnet the way stringfield was at that time

[0:27:29 - 0:27:36] ▶

and so he started to publish his research bit by bit you know in these tiny little ufo journals that no

[0:27:36 - 0:27:42] ▶

one was reading but they were coming out and so again if you're managing the secrecy

[0:27:42 - 0:27:47] ▶

and if there were crash retrievals which it looks like there certainly were

[0:27:49 - 0:27:52] ▶

you've got to be concerned like how long can this go before someone actually

[0:27:53 - 0:28:00] ▶

uncovers something that's truly compromising that we do not want out and so the theory and i think this

[0:28:00 - 0:28:05] ▶

is probably true is you muddy the waters and you you um put out information that would

[0:28:05 - 0:28:12] ▶

sow the seed of doubt into documents and this is one argument about the mj 12 documents that came

[0:28:12 - 0:28:19] ▶

out in the mid-1980s and it's possible that that's the case and uh and then the the campaign

[0:28:19 - 0:28:25] ▶

against paul benowitz that we were just talking about could be part of that as well this is like

[0:28:25 - 0:28:29] ▶

kind of the empire strikes back you know you've got all of this uh all of these threats to the

[0:28:29 - 0:28:34] ▶

empire of secrecy and the late 70s early 80s they make the decision in the early 80s like let's um

[0:28:34 - 0:28:41] ▶

do something about that and which is the case like to this day new documents may come out and you've

[0:28:42 - 0:28:47] ▶

already got people saying is this real is this lies it's this disinfo it's amazing to watch it's very

[0:28:47 - 0:28:53] ▶

effective it's really effective i mean so if they were doing if they were going to that extent with uh

[0:28:53 - 0:28:58] ▶

with richard dodie and paul benowitz in the it was the 80s that was happening yeah if they were doing

[0:28:58 - 0:29:03] ▶

that in the 80s imagine what they could what they have the ability to do now with the internet it's

[0:29:03 - 0:29:09] ▶

it's it's highly sophisticated obviously and and very likely they've got smarter people than we do

[0:29:09 - 0:29:16] ▶

and uh they're probably many many steps ahead i think it's very tough to deal with them not impossible

[0:29:16 - 0:29:21] ▶

but yeah i mean it's we're going beyond ufos here or uap this is in a whole array of things i have no

[0:29:22 - 0:29:29] ▶

doubt but uh the ufo subject which is the one that i'm most interested in i think definitely

[0:29:29 - 0:29:34] ▶

uh you know we're in an era now since 2017 new york times and politico they do their articles at that

[0:29:35 - 0:29:41] ▶

time and it kind of breaks open the space a little bit where people can talk about this a bit more

[0:29:41 - 0:29:46] ▶

without necessarily their careers being destroyed through ridicule so that's good but to think then

[0:29:46 - 0:29:53] ▶

that uh the national security crowd is just going to walk away from the table and say oh yeah here

[0:29:53 - 0:29:59] ▶

you go here's all of our secrets yeah sorry about that we were wrong no that's not going to happen

[0:29:59 - 0:30:05] ▶

there's too many far too many reasons right to maintain this and to fight every step of the way

[0:30:05 - 0:30:11] ▶

so what i believe is happening in terms of all of this like this has been an argument for almost a

[0:30:11 - 0:30:15] ▶

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it's like are we dealing with a covert op by the government to have a controlled and false release

[0:31:46 - 0:31:54] ▶

of uh ufo information to serve their needs or what i believe is we're looking at a factional struggle

[0:31:54 - 0:32:02] ▶

within that community where there are actually people who do believe in getting this information out to

[0:32:03 - 0:32:09] ▶

whatever extent they believe they want it out i'm not sure if they even want it out fully themselves

[0:32:09 - 0:32:13] ▶

but to some extent but there's still the the secrecy group if we can call them that that is

[0:32:13 - 0:32:21] ▶

absolutely not resolved to that at all not not reconciled to that and they will fight every step of

[0:32:21 - 0:32:26] ▶

the way yeah i think um when me when i had jesse michaelson here he was i think he told me that

[0:32:26 - 0:32:32] ▶

as far as like all of the information that exists about this stuff on the internet he's he was saying

[0:32:32 - 0:32:35] ▶

only like 20 of it needs to be fake he's like 80 of it can be real and still no one will ever know

[0:32:35 - 0:32:42] ▶

what to believe yeah that's just fight about it it's probably right it's probably i think it's even

[0:32:42 - 0:32:47] ▶

less than 20 that needs to be fake wow really yeah i don't i don't i mean um i think so because there's

[0:32:47 - 0:32:54] ▶

always look you've got trolls out there you've got hardcore skeptical people out there of course

[0:32:54 - 0:32:59] ▶

it's crazy and they will just this like a religion yeah they will hammer on any any little thing

[0:32:59 - 0:33:04] ▶

that just seems a little off and they'll just go after it you know and you could have uh i mean we

[0:33:04 - 0:33:10] ▶

just had this congressional briefing just the other day as we're as we're recording this in the very

[0:33:10 - 0:33:15] ▶

beginning of may you had oh i missed that well it was very interesting so you had dr eric davis who

[0:33:15 - 0:33:20] ▶

was hardly ever oh i did see this okay yeah uh eric davis anytime he talks you really want to listen

[0:33:20 - 0:33:27] ▶

to that man but why is that he's worked very closely for many years with hal putoff he's worked

[0:33:27 - 0:33:35] ▶

with robert bigelow's national institute for discovery science back in the 90s and early 2000s

[0:33:35 - 0:33:40] ▶

he's a man who interviewed admiral thomas r wilson in 2002 which was a whole big thing that came out in

[0:33:40 - 0:33:47] ▶

2019 that was a big mess but it was all true davis meets with wilson after wilson had retired from the

[0:33:47 - 0:33:56] ▶

defense intelligence agency he had run the dia and this is connected you interviewed stephen greer so

[0:33:56 - 0:34:03] ▶

stephen greer was very much a part of this so back in 1997 all right greer and edgar mitchell the

[0:34:03 - 0:34:09] ▶

astronaut and a few other individuals were going through washington dc and and greer you know look

[0:34:09 - 0:34:17] ▶

he can be very polarizing but he was he was right on with this and i will always say this in 1997

[0:34:17 - 0:34:23] ▶

greer was like there are uh black programs that are rogue that deal with et tech reverse engineering

[0:34:23 - 0:34:32] ▶

they are beyond the formal control of the us government and so they're trying to get audiences

[0:34:32 - 0:34:38] ▶

with different people to talk about this and they get to meet with admiral thomas r wilson

[0:34:38 - 0:34:42] ▶

who was uh head of intelligence for the joint chiefs of staff at that time this is april 1997

[0:34:42 - 0:34:46] ▶

and they give gives a presentation and wilson and i know this is absolutely true said i'm going to

[0:34:46 - 0:34:55] ▶

look into this the head of the joint chiefs yeah well he's head of intelligence for the joint chiefs

[0:34:55 - 0:34:59] ▶

so or he was deputy head of intelligence for the joint chiefs he then became head of intelligence for

[0:35:00 - 0:35:05] ▶

the joint chiefs which was head of the dia so he was important and he goes on a two-month

[0:35:05 - 0:35:12] ▶

uh wild goose chase actually within the pentagon's bureaucratic structure we can go into more detail

[0:35:12 - 0:35:20] ▶

if you want but the short version is he finds a number not just one several special access programs

[0:35:20 - 0:35:26] ▶

that is ultra ultra secret programs dealing with et tech he contacts the managers of one of them

[0:35:26 - 0:35:34] ▶

and uh and he's actually able to get a private in-person meeting with them they are the the program

[0:35:34 - 0:35:43] ▶

manager the security manager and the uh the corporate attorney right for the for this it was a

[0:35:43 - 0:35:49] ▶

private contractor we don't know that it was lockheed but that's what the betting money is so he goes

[0:35:49 - 0:35:53] ▶

to meet with them and he says it is your we're getting back to eric davis i promise you okay wilson says

[0:35:53 - 0:36:00] ▶

it is it is your oversight that i am not overseeing this program you need to bring me in you don't

[0:36:00 - 0:36:08] ▶

have you do not have proper oversight of this and they are like no we're we're fine we don't need you

[0:36:08 - 0:36:14] ▶

well that's that's a real problem what and he finds out from them i remember greer telling me this

[0:36:14 - 0:36:19] ▶

yes right and he finds out like this is they have a an intact saucer according to what they said to him

[0:36:19 - 0:36:26] ▶

uh they've made painfully slow progress in understanding it uh they had what's called the

[0:36:26 - 0:36:32] ▶

bigot list b-i-g-o-t and it's an acronym deriving from world war ii anyway that's the list of people

[0:36:32 - 0:36:38] ▶

who are allowed to be honest and it's like 500 people and wilson's in in uh is reading the list

[0:36:38 - 0:36:44] ▶

he's recognizing very few names from the dod they're almost all in private industry and he says no i need

[0:36:44 - 0:36:51] ▶

to be this is this is part of my purview and they're like no it isn't he says well i'll complain

[0:36:51 - 0:36:56] ▶

they're like be my guest we're not afraid we're not afraid of you and he did go back to dc he did

[0:36:56 - 0:37:02] ▶

complain and he was threatened with his career he's threatened he'd lose a star or two along the way and

[0:37:02 - 0:37:06] ▶

taking early retirement and he got furious but he ended up playing ball so anyway he because he was

[0:37:06 - 0:37:15] ▶

there with edgar mitchell and there was another navy commander named willard miller who was part of

[0:37:15 - 0:37:21] ▶

this and miller these are navy guys miller mitchell and wilson they're all navy uh apparently uh wilson and

[0:37:21 - 0:37:31] ▶

miller chatted about this after and miller i guess learned that wilson had failed in getting access to

[0:37:31 - 0:37:40] ▶

this program and so somehow this got back to edgar mitchell the astronaut and mitchell was in with the

[0:37:40 - 0:37:49] ▶

national institute for discovery science that's robert bigelow that's all these other guys right

[0:37:49 - 0:37:53] ▶

davis okay pot off okay and many others and so they all knew they all knew that there was this failed

[0:37:53 - 0:38:01] ▶

attempt by the head of intelligence for the joint chiefs to get access to this program and he was denied

[0:38:01 - 0:38:09] ▶

access so it's kind of a big thing like you know you learn this fact and you're like how do we get

[0:38:09 - 0:38:14] ▶

to wilson we want to talk to him so wilson retires in 02 and clearly eric davis who was part of the

[0:38:14 - 0:38:20] ▶

nids group he's the one he goes out and he he interviews wilson he got he he got the scoop and he writes

[0:38:20 - 0:38:28] ▶

up roughly 15 pages of typewritten notes of his conversation with wilson i am mentioning this because

[0:38:28 - 0:38:34] ▶

someone in that group and i cannot say who it was unfortunately oh you know but you cannot say

[0:38:34 - 0:38:39] ▶

i knew i read that i read portions of that document back in 2000 and uh okay so it's still six yeah

[0:38:39 - 0:38:45] ▶

2006 and seven six seven 2007 and then um and i read the portion where wilson is telling davis

[0:38:45 - 0:38:59] ▶

this this technology was not made by earth not made by man not by human hands in in the davis notes

[0:38:59 - 0:39:06] ▶

it's italicized and i remembered reading it struck me like it's very profound you know this is not made

[0:39:06 - 0:39:12] ▶

by human hands so they all knew that so davis gets these notes and the only reason those notes leaked out

[0:39:12 - 0:39:19] ▶

at all in 2019 was because of just a year and a half earlier edgard mitchell had died and his estate

[0:39:19 - 0:39:27] ▶

um well it got it got leaked out so there was a friend of the family who was able to get some of

[0:39:28 - 0:39:35] ▶

mitchell's documents those documents went to australia and from there they were jpegged and by the early

[0:39:35 - 0:39:43] ▶

part of 2019 they were quietly circulating around like the full notes that davis had written and then

[0:39:43 - 0:39:51] ▶

it leaked out it leaked out enough in the spring of 2019 that i uh took it upon myself to do my own

[0:39:51 - 0:39:57] ▶

little youtube video on it and i think that's what blew it open in june of 2019 but that's eric davis

[0:39:57 - 0:40:03] ▶

like so eric davis is and he's also part of this legacy remote viewing program too right he was a part of

[0:40:03 - 0:40:10] ▶

put off he was with put off and and sarfati and all these sri guys is that right no i don't know

[0:40:10 - 0:40:15] ▶

no no and i don't think sarfati was part of the sri thing um okay that's put off and uh russell targ

[0:40:15 - 0:40:21] ▶

oh that's it okay and uh i i i know and adore russell uh as well he's a he's a wonderful man but um

[0:40:21 - 0:40:29] ▶

we can get into that too i i'm not an expert in remote viewing but my wife is a pretty damn good

[0:40:29 - 0:40:34] ▶

remote viewer what yeah i'm serious wow tracy has done some great remote views no seriously great

[0:40:34 - 0:40:41] ▶

remote views yeah um but no i've been interested in that for a long time oh it's fascinating it's

[0:40:41 - 0:40:46] ▶

absolutely amazing yeah it's amazing and it's it's real that is absolutely real yeah it was crazy

[0:40:46 - 0:40:52] ▶

it was wild listening to um how i'll just talk about that on rogan's podcast and i've had a lot

[0:40:53 - 0:40:58] ▶

of people talk about that on this on this show before and it's uh yeah the way he described it with

[0:40:58 - 0:41:02] ▶

rogan was uh it was very very cohesive like it made a lot of sense the way he did it yeah it's

[0:41:02 - 0:41:07] ▶

it's absolutely extraordinary uh i'll just try to wrap up our thread yeah yeah where were we eric davis

[0:41:07 - 0:41:14] ▶

and the recent congressional yeah so like that was um oh and the reason i brought that up at all yeah

[0:41:14 - 0:41:20] ▶

davis was talking and he's like when you hear eric davis as i said before like you must listen to this

[0:41:20 - 0:41:27] ▶

man in my opinion he has a stellar reputation and so on the on this briefing he's talking about like

[0:41:27 - 0:41:35] ▶

yeah there's different types of aliens that i've become aware of and like he's quite explicit

[0:41:35 - 0:41:40] ▶

davis is saying that yes absolutely but what everyone jumped on was uh unfortunately and this

[0:41:41 - 0:41:46] ▶

is not to uh to disparage lou elizondo because i personally like lou and i respect him a lot but he

[0:41:46 - 0:41:51] ▶

put up a an image of a what was supposed to be a ufo and oh looted yeah yeah it was very quickly uh

[0:41:51 - 0:42:00] ▶

you know debunked yeah pretty much it's like you know irrigation circles that when you fly over it

[0:42:00 - 0:42:05] ▶

looked like it looked like a white ufo with a shadow below like if it could look like that when i looked

[0:42:05 - 0:42:11] ▶

at it i thought oh yeah it looks like that i see these things on x on twitter all the time and i just

[0:42:11 - 0:42:15] ▶

like sometimes i just don't have time and i scroll right now exactly i saw i saw what you're referring to

[0:42:15 - 0:42:19] ▶

though yeah that got very quickly and and people were just hammering on that and but like the whole

[0:42:19 - 0:42:25] ▶

point is like all right people can make mistakes and maybe you could say like you shouldn't make

[0:42:25 - 0:42:30] ▶

the mistake okay fine whatever but i don't think that any of that was in bad faith at all i absolutely

[0:42:30 - 0:42:36] ▶

believe he did that in good faith and it was just it was a mistake and you shouldn't have made it but

[0:42:36 - 0:42:39] ▶

okay but this is what excuse me you're hearing people have uh you know focus on i'm talking about

[0:42:39 - 0:42:45] ▶

the skeptics now you got davis with these amazing statements you had uh admiral tim gallaudet during

[0:42:45 - 0:42:51] ▶

the briefing with very impressive statements and um christopher mellon who's always on point made very

[0:42:51 - 0:42:56] ▶

good things had very good things to say and uh more mike gold of nasa but they they focused on this

[0:42:56 - 0:43:04] ▶

mistaken photograph the whole time well the debunkers i mean that's what they'll do you know they'll look

[0:43:04 - 0:43:10] ▶

for the one little thing rather than you look at the big picture of what these other

[0:43:10 - 0:43:15] ▶

individuals are saying it's what did you take away from that whole thing well we are if you think

[0:43:15 - 0:43:20] ▶

about the news stories that have come out in the last week from our from this moment that i'm here

[0:43:20 - 0:43:24] ▶

with you today is what day is may 5th monday may 5th cinco de mayo baby yeah that's right um just a

[0:43:24 - 0:43:32] ▶

little over a week ago i think jesse michael put out his harold maumgren interview how harold maumgren

[0:43:32 - 0:43:37] ▶

fascinating man who is this is a guy who is advisor to four u.s presidents including kennedy

[0:43:38 - 0:43:43] ▶

kennedy johnson nixon four what yeah he was 89 years old and then died immediately after this interview

[0:43:44 - 0:43:51] ▶

with jesse when you get it i mean everyone's like that up we're so busy no one has time but that is a

[0:43:51 - 0:43:58] ▶

hell of an interview oh and malengrim he he got very sick immediately after this and he died shortly

[0:43:58 - 0:44:05] ▶

after that but you listen to this man he was a brilliant economist maybe genius level i mean

[0:44:05 - 0:44:12] ▶

absolutely top-notch intellect and he was razor sharp during this interview so he was he was great

[0:44:12 - 0:44:19] ▶

was he whacked i doubt it i mean i don't i don't think so uh you know but anyway what he said

[0:44:19 - 0:44:26] ▶

we're sleeping pulled up here yeah i touched the ufo that's 12 days ago wow yeah yeah so anyway we had

[0:44:26 - 0:44:33] ▶

that story then we had um trying to get these in order oh matthew brown who's uh the uh latest we

[0:44:33 - 0:44:41] ▶

can say whistleblower interviewed by jeremy corbell and george knapp very interesting guy and then um

[0:44:41 - 0:44:48] ▶

we had uh we had we had put off on rogan we had the congressional briefing and then just yesterday

[0:44:49 - 0:44:55] ▶

there's a new a new one and i don't know how powerful this is or not but uh dr gregory oh man

[0:44:55 - 0:45:03] ▶

gregory this was put out in the daily mail uh by josh um boom no josh uh forgive me he's a friend i like

[0:45:03 - 0:45:13] ▶

him it'll come uh anyway that came out in the daily mail what was it about was the he was he was an air

[0:45:13 - 0:45:20] ▶

force major and he was a nasa doctor he's looking for it dr gregory rogers rogers and it's by i want

[0:45:20 - 0:45:29] ▶

to give josh his props he deserves it look i'm waiting maybe maybe it'll be in there scroll josh

[0:45:29 - 0:45:35] ▶

boswell josh boswell okay yeah yeah he he and christopher sharp they're both very good younger

[0:45:35 - 0:45:42] ▶

journalists who do very good work on this anyway so this man gregory rogers was a nasa doctor

[0:45:42 - 0:45:48] ▶

uh worked on a number of shuttle missions and said in 1992 he's down by cape cape canaveral i think

[0:45:48 - 0:45:57] ▶

and he saw a cctv footage of a he was shown this by another air force officer of a flying saucer

[0:45:58 - 0:46:05] ▶

that had usaf markings on it u.s air force flying saucer he said this thing did things that we we did

[0:46:05 - 0:46:11] ▶

not have the ability to do tilt at an angle while hovering uh rotate this way rotate that way

[0:46:11 - 0:46:17] ▶

uh but he supposedly and look this has not been vetted i mean you know but this is all just new

[0:46:17 - 0:46:23] ▶

stuff he said i was i asked him where do we get this and he said the guy just pointed up and indicating

[0:46:23 - 0:46:30] ▶

it was like from up there from outer space so it's it's a new story is it true is it not true i don't know

[0:46:30 - 0:46:39] ▶

but think of this in the last less than two weeks those all of those have come out like that's

[0:46:39 - 0:46:47] ▶

profound that's powerful stuff yeah uh more than a decade ago you would have had to wait like there

[0:46:47 - 0:46:54] ▶

would have been years in between stories like that yeah it's drinking from a fire hose

[0:46:54 - 0:46:58] ▶

exactly so uh so i don't remember why i got into all this but yeah i guess we're like i asked you

[0:46:58 - 0:47:06] ▶

just like what your uh your what your ultimate takeaway was from that recent congressional thing

[0:47:06 - 0:47:10] ▶

with eric davis and all those guys we're looking at a kind of pile-on effect you know with uh the

[0:47:10 - 0:47:16] ▶

momentum of all of this these new revelations new claims maybe it might be a better way to put it but

[0:47:16 - 0:47:23] ▶

yeah more and more new information is absolutely coming out at a rate that is unprecedented we've

[0:47:23 - 0:47:29] ▶

never in all of the history of ufo research and that's this is something i can speak very

[0:47:29 - 0:47:34] ▶

confidently about there has never been anything like the time that we're in now this is this is

[0:47:34 - 0:47:39] ▶

unprecedented and where it will lead is a really good question yeah yeah so so over the last couple

[0:47:39 - 0:47:46] ▶

months uh i mean like my emotional my emotions on this whole topic vary it's like i ride

[0:47:46 - 0:47:53] ▶

this roller coaster of emotions on the ufo topic from being a i get burnt out on it super easily

[0:47:53 - 0:47:58] ▶

yeah i get like this ufo fatigue um and then i also go back and forth between like is it really

[0:47:58 - 0:48:06] ▶

aliens is it time travelers is it darpa and like you know my recent thing has been like this is just

[0:48:06 - 0:48:12] ▶

this has to be all just military mixed with internet psychological psyops or just like like like you

[0:48:12 - 0:48:21] ▶

just alluded feeding us this fire hose of misinformation just to get everyone confused so

[0:48:21 - 0:48:26] ▶

nobody can no like it doesn't matter what the truth is because there's just everything's out there

[0:48:26 - 0:48:31] ▶

and everyone's fighting about it there's too much noise and no signal yeah i'm very sympathetic to

[0:48:31 - 0:48:35] ▶

that and as far as the burnout goes i i'm totally i've done this for 30 years right and my wife could

[0:48:35 - 0:48:41] ▶

tell you like when it's after dinner time i i almost like i have to think about other things i can't

[0:48:41 - 0:48:47] ▶

i can't do ufos anymore like in the old days i would go to like two three in the morning just like

[0:48:47 - 0:48:51] ▶

and nowadays like i do it in the morning and the afternoons and then i have to i have to end it yeah

[0:48:52 - 0:48:57] ▶

i have to have other things going on in my life so i i can sympathize with that but as far as like

[0:48:57 - 0:49:02] ▶

what's going on the reason uh that i i still i very much believe that the significant portion of

[0:49:02 - 0:49:10] ▶

this phenomenon is from non-human intelligence the reason i believe that is i look at the earliest

[0:49:10 - 0:49:17] ▶

history of this uh particularly the early like the post-world war ii but even there are some very

[0:49:17 - 0:49:26] ▶

i would say good not perfect but good accounts from prior to world war ii that are worth looking at as

[0:49:28 - 0:49:34] ▶

well and so when you look at some of these early cases and then particularly when you read uh the

[0:49:34 - 0:49:41] ▶

declassified documents that i mentioned earlier that are available it's hard for me to square that

[0:49:41 - 0:49:46] ▶

with a secret us black budget project it just doesn't because because all the intelligence officers

[0:49:46 - 0:49:53] ▶

that we know of at the time in the 40s were looking into this and there just is there's nothing

[0:49:53 - 0:49:59] ▶

that i have seen that really make even you mentioned joseph farrell's work yeah were we on camera when

[0:49:59 - 0:50:04] ▶

we talked about joe i can't where were we steve i don't remember i well anyways we were talking

[0:50:04 - 0:50:09] ▶

about joseph farrell before this thing started and um and i'm a friend of joe's and i respect and

[0:50:09 - 0:50:15] ▶

admire his work a lot but i don't even think that he has made a clear-cut case that it's definitely all

[0:50:15 - 0:50:20] ▶

like you know third third reich tech and all of that i mean there's definitely the horton brothers

[0:50:20 - 0:50:27] ▶

which was yeah yeah yeah there's the horton brothers and uh and i think now i think we're seeing

[0:50:27 - 0:50:33] ▶

more and more support for the idea of a 1933 italian recovery right italian this is i think

[0:50:33 - 0:50:43] ▶

grush talked about this right grush talked about it malmgren malmgren in his interview with jesse

[0:50:43 - 0:50:48] ▶

michaels and eric davis in his congressional briefing talked about it so we're seeing all these different

[0:50:48 - 0:50:56] ▶

uh perspectives coming in on this uh the real man who researched this is an italian researcher named

[0:50:56 - 0:51:02] ▶

roberto pinotti who looked at a lot of the original documents that do exist in italian from 1933.

[0:51:02 - 0:51:09] ▶

and um interesting so i think yes like this goes back farther in time than a lot of the american

[0:51:10 - 0:51:18] ▶

researchers like because we're so american-centered it's like roswell it all starts there yeah uh no no

[0:51:18 - 0:51:23] ▶

i think there's even in the us there were prior cases to roswell but certainly this 1933 case

[0:51:23 - 0:51:29] ▶

is so you you think the the fact that these cases or crash recoveries retrievals whatever you want to

[0:51:29 - 0:51:35] ▶

call them they go back so far earlier than the the 1940s you think that points to it being of

[0:51:35 - 0:51:41] ▶

non-human origin just because of how advanced it was and how early it was i i think so that's what i

[0:51:41 - 0:51:46] ▶

that's what i believe in and where where do you think they would have come from i know we're being

[0:51:46 - 0:51:51] ▶

super speculative here i'm just saying like if you i would say another planet another planet right or or

[0:51:51 - 0:51:56] ▶

uh there's a couple of different ways to look at this so you know hal putoff wrote a very interesting

[0:51:56 - 0:52:02] ▶

paper a number of years ago on uh ultra terrestrials this yeah concept and it's a it's very interesting

[0:52:02 - 0:52:09] ▶

paper i highly recommend people read it and and i think his take and he just mentioned this the other

[0:52:09 - 0:52:16] ▶

day in his interview but maybe there's been a group that's been here a long time that originally comes

[0:52:16 - 0:52:21] ▶

from elsewhere they've set up shop in some manner which i think is a total totally possible i would

[0:52:21 - 0:52:30] ▶

i would imagine that the extraterrestrial hypothesis actually still makes more sense to me than anything

[0:52:30 - 0:52:37] ▶

else i mean we can get attracted to interdimensional theories but does anyone actually even understand

[0:52:37 - 0:52:43] ▶

what another dimension would be like how does that work how do they materialize you know i don't maybe

[0:52:43 - 0:52:48] ▶

it's it's possible but i don't really understand how that's possible i can understand how it could be

[0:52:48 - 0:52:54] ▶

possible even despite the vast distances to go interstellar if you can manipulate space-time in

[0:52:54 - 0:53:03] ▶

some way bending space-time we have math for that ghan and miguel alcubierre in the 90s apparently came

[0:53:03 - 0:53:09] ▶

up with some version of warp drive mathematically the problem is finding the amount of energy

[0:53:09 - 0:53:14] ▶

sufficient to do it but same thing with time i think that's the same thing with time travel right

[0:53:14 - 0:53:19] ▶

i think so yeah you know so i love i love michael master's time travel theory uh yeah i don't know

[0:53:19 - 0:53:24] ▶

if i've i'm on top of that one so maybe you can you can educate me but uh but i guess i'll just say i

[0:53:24 - 0:53:32] ▶

think the fact that they come from another place still makes the most sense to me uh the fact that we

[0:53:32 - 0:53:40] ▶

would be of interest makes a lot of sense to me the fact that earth would be a very interesting place

[0:53:40 - 0:53:46] ▶

also makes a lot of sense to me i think all of that makes perfect sense that if you have the ability

[0:53:46 - 0:53:53] ▶

if you've achieved a technological capability to detect advanced life elsewhere which i don't see

[0:53:53 - 0:54:00] ▶

that as impossible at all um i mean we're already looking at exoplanetary systems and looking for life

[0:54:00 - 0:54:06] ▶

signatures and we just started with this business so if you've been doing this for a thousand years or

[0:54:06 - 0:54:11] ▶

more um maybe you can detect consciousness you know you can go we talked about remote viewing yeah

[0:54:11 - 0:54:18] ▶

could they actually have the ability to detect advanced consciousness i don't know maybe they can

[0:54:18 - 0:54:22] ▶

or maybe there are other technologies that we just haven't can envision so they could find us

[0:54:22 - 0:54:27] ▶

and then could they get to us yeah probably i don't see why not at least in theory i think it

[0:54:27 - 0:54:32] ▶

could be entirely possible and we would be interesting because a there could be a lot of

[0:54:32 - 0:54:40] ▶

life in this universe but how common really would planets like ours be we have we're in the goldilocks

[0:54:40 - 0:54:49] ▶

zone but it takes a lot more than that right we have the moon isn't we have the moon incredible which

[0:54:49 - 0:54:55] ▶

is uh it's it's uh what's the word it's the perfect terraforming device it's one i think it's one

[0:54:55 - 0:55:03] ▶

twentieth the size of the sun and one twentieth the distance from the sun i think i'm getting that

[0:55:03 - 0:55:07] ▶

math right oh it's a lot less than one twentieth the sun maybe maybe i'm maybe i'm getting that

[0:55:07 - 0:55:11] ▶

math wrong steve maybe you can correct me with the uh the fractions there anyways the fractions are

[0:55:11 - 0:55:15] ▶

exact the exact uh size comparison to the sun and the exact distance from the sun sun is equal so it

[0:55:15 - 0:55:21] ▶

creates that perfect eclipse and so that makes yeah that's actually that's an amazing thing if that's

[0:55:21 - 0:55:26] ▶

it if if that's a significant part the fact that it's a stabilizer of our environment is very

[0:55:26 - 0:55:31] ▶

significant uh it's it's always got one side turned to the earth that's i can't remember the word for

[0:55:31 - 0:55:36] ▶

that but that could be significant it's totally locked yeah thank you steve what's the fractions of

[0:55:36 - 0:55:41] ▶

the distance the distance ratio and the size ratio find that and then it is you know it is the perfect

[0:55:41 - 0:55:46] ▶

terraforming device for us and uh yeah it's sun size and distance ratio there you go you can figure

[0:55:46 - 0:55:56] ▶

that out let you let us know steve that's your homework assignment but but we have we also have

[0:55:56 - 0:56:02] ▶

water and land so we but we're not completely covered in water either so we have enough water for life to

[0:56:02 - 0:56:08] ▶

evolve in the water but then we have enough land out of the water that life can crawl up and evolve on land

[0:56:08 - 0:56:16] ▶

you know i mean that's kind of an interesting thing right there and we've had enough uh stability over

[0:56:17 - 0:56:23] ▶

hundreds of millions of years that we can allow complex life to develop on right and i mean yeah

[0:56:24 - 0:56:31] ▶

that's that can't be very common now the universe is big enough that you could think all right maybe

[0:56:31 - 0:56:37] ▶

one out of a million systems might have something like this or whatever it is and that could still be

[0:56:37 - 0:56:41] ▶

enough to develop um advance life and which i think i i've come to believe i'm not a i'm not a expert in

[0:56:41 - 0:56:49] ▶

this at all but i i tend to think that life anywhere is going naturally to want to increase its complexity

[0:56:49 - 0:56:58] ▶

just because life competes with other life for resources and energy and food and that intelligence

[0:57:00 - 0:57:05] ▶

is one necessary evolutionary adaptation that would be useful for any life form and not just humans

[0:57:05 - 0:57:12] ▶

dinosaurs were intelligent hell not not maybe compared to us but compared to previous life

[0:57:13 - 0:57:17] ▶

forms they probably were intelligence is always increasing yes and uh you know our body plan just

[0:57:17 - 0:57:25] ▶

allowed us to hit the sweet spot we developed these hands that can do things and manipulate our

[0:57:25 - 0:57:29] ▶

environment and that further increased our intelligence i believe so i think i think life naturally will do

[0:57:29 - 0:57:34] ▶

that given the proper conditions right and i'm going to guess that you know in enough parts of the

[0:57:34 - 0:57:41] ▶

universe those conditions have existed so that you then develop life and then it gets to the the critical

[0:57:41 - 0:57:47] ▶

point where it develops its own ability to kind of manage itself which we're maybe kind of doing and

[0:57:47 - 0:57:54] ▶

we're developing artifact you know strong ai sure and uh all the other technologies that'll go along with it

[0:57:54 - 0:57:59] ▶

nanotech and who the hell knows what quantum computing and what kind of crazy

[0:57:59 - 0:58:03] ▶

diabolical mixture will come out of all of that and i think that that's probably what what other life

[0:58:03 - 0:58:09] ▶

forms have done because i i suspect that that what life what intelligent life will do is it is guided

[0:58:09 - 0:58:19] ▶

by the requirements of constantly developing that intelligence in other words

[0:58:20 - 0:58:27] ▶

uh it's not about like our society isn't about the human race anymore it's really about

[0:58:27 - 0:58:34] ▶

meeting the needs of the demands of a highly integrated digitally advanced artificially intelligent

[0:58:35 - 0:58:43] ▶

system of which we are now just a part like we think it's working for us but i think we're serving

[0:58:43 - 0:58:47] ▶

the system and we're serving the system that is becoming ever more complex and and that intelligence will

[0:58:47 - 0:58:55] ▶

just kind of take off on its own because i think it's the intelligence that's the dominant factor

[0:58:55 - 0:59:00] ▶

not necessarily our biological contribution to it interesting yeah i mean i don't know if anyone

[0:59:00 - 0:59:06] ▶

actually ever thinks that or if i'm the only person but this is what i i've come to believe like we serve

[0:59:06 - 0:59:12] ▶

we serve the system that we have helped to create but really we're just we are simply actors we're just

[0:59:12 - 0:59:23] ▶

we're the caterpillar yeah we're like the servants of of what high intelligence demands and we we're

[0:59:23 - 0:59:31] ▶

that's what we're doing what do you think we look like what do you think human beings or what comes

[0:59:31 - 0:59:37] ▶

out of human beings ends up being in like 50 to 100 years well it all depends on it's summertime boys

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and you know the instant you step outside that sweat's going to be on you like morning dew and the

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because all that we do is we adapt to the environments that we live in and we are now radically changing

[1:01:23 - 1:01:29] ▶

our own environment uh technologically in all different ways and so clearly you're seeing uh

[1:01:29 - 1:01:36] ▶

probably uh a speeding up of of human evolution is probably happening right i think it is right

[1:01:37 - 1:01:44] ▶

uh experts would be better able to say this than me but i think it's quite i mean look even in

[1:01:44 - 1:01:49] ▶

technology right yeah in the last 10 000 years we're not the same as we were back then so uh and

[1:01:49 - 1:01:54] ▶

we've domesticated ourselves it's just like you look at domesticated sheep as opposed to wild sheep

[1:01:54 - 1:01:59] ▶

well domesticated humans as opposed to wild humans right before we started settling in

[1:01:59 - 1:02:03] ▶

large communities and societies roughly 10 000 years ago so we're we're going on a path so what we're

[1:02:04 - 1:02:10] ▶

going to look like uh the you know the problem with our future is that every every new technological

[1:02:10 - 1:02:20] ▶

leap you make whether it's mastering the use of fire or stone tools or now working at it you know

[1:02:21 - 1:02:29] ▶

getting to agi and whatever else we're going to get to means that you become dependent on that for your

[1:02:29 - 1:02:34] ▶

species survival like honestly like once we've had fire for like a couple hundred thousand years right

[1:02:34 - 1:02:42] ▶

it would be very difficult to probably for those people to survive without it yes because you become

[1:02:43 - 1:02:47] ▶

dependent on it and then not only that but the fact that you have fire means you have to develop all

[1:02:47 - 1:02:53] ▶

these other technologies because we have to maintain the fire we have to protect the fire we have to

[1:02:53 - 1:02:58] ▶

find and process the right kinds of wood like all of that that that prompts further intellectual

[1:02:59 - 1:03:07] ▶

development same with stone tools and all that so once you develop that you have to maintain it and now

[1:03:07 - 1:03:13] ▶

we're so so deeply embedded in our technology can you imagine you know spain and portugal just went

[1:03:13 - 1:03:19] ▶

without electricity for five hours last week five i have a sister who lives in seville and uh trust me

[1:03:19 - 1:03:26] ▶

i live in florida i go through a lot of hurricanes and it's like exactly so but they were like they

[1:03:26 - 1:03:31] ▶

were freaking out man they were not they were not happy so imagine if we had to go without electric

[1:03:31 - 1:03:37] ▶

forget internet just electricity yeah it's even worse for a week two weeks a month forever

[1:03:37 - 1:03:43] ▶

it would suck it would it would more than suck because most people would probably not live

[1:03:44 - 1:03:48] ▶

you know going back to this you know this technology conversation and the evolution of human beings

[1:03:49 - 1:03:55] ▶

uh is really it's something i've been thinking about a lot recently and it really came it was

[1:03:55 - 1:03:59] ▶

interesting because i think hal and rogan touched on it a little bit on their conversation but you know

[1:03:59 - 1:04:05] ▶

one of the ideas that i've been throwing around is the idea of like this this esp telekinesis having

[1:04:05 - 1:04:15] ▶

these senses that are not apparent in everybody but they're kind of like extra some people have have

[1:04:15 - 1:04:22] ▶

them more than other people and especially when it comes to things like remote viewing and esp so like

[1:04:22 - 1:04:28] ▶

like ancient human beings right before we had the development of language before we had the

[1:04:28 - 1:04:36] ▶

technology to record memories externally and you know when we constantly were uh trying to avoid

[1:04:36 - 1:04:43] ▶

predators to stay alive yeah and boy before we had anything like i'm sure we had some sort of extra

[1:04:43 - 1:04:51] ▶

senses that have atrophied since we've developed okay language since we've developed computers we don't

[1:04:51 - 1:04:57] ▶

have to memorize anymore everything's on a computer or iphone and you know what i mean absolutely so i

[1:04:57 - 1:05:01] ▶

feel like that is radically we have senses that are radically have been diminished diminished and atrophied

[1:05:01 - 1:05:09] ▶

over millennia my wife and i talk about this a lot this is like our one of our pet theories that we've

[1:05:09 - 1:05:13] ▶

been uh hashing around for a couple of years excuse me i totally believe that that's the case we actually

[1:05:13 - 1:05:18] ▶

are uh the brain capacity of the human being today is less than it was among um our ancestors even more

[1:05:18 - 1:05:27] ▶

than 10 000 years ago i think it's like the amount of a golf ball or no more than that i think right uh

[1:05:27 - 1:05:32] ▶

uh maybe a baseball amount of a brain we have less we have we have a little bit less that doesn't mean

[1:05:32 - 1:05:39] ▶

that we're less intelligent it just means that domestication has enabled us to need less because

[1:05:39 - 1:05:48] ▶

the brain's expensive i mean in terms of energy like it's it's not free and so you you have to have

[1:05:48 - 1:05:54] ▶

a reason for it it's got to provide an evolutionary benefit for you to use it and uh very likely i think

[1:05:54 - 1:06:00] ▶

that you're right i think that's true like we've probably atrophied um and what that of course this

[1:06:00 - 1:06:06] ▶

is this is material that i'm just barely i shouldn't even really talk about but you hear people talking

[1:06:06 - 1:06:12] ▶

about microtubules and the brain and the ability to access quantum information in some way yeah and

[1:06:12 - 1:06:18] ▶

i'm probably saying this wrong in countless ways but but essentially that we have the capacity to

[1:06:18 - 1:06:25] ▶

perceive some various forms of non-locality you know things that are far away that logically you

[1:06:25 - 1:06:33] ▶

wouldn't think we're able to perceive but hell remote viewing proves that you can and i think uh it's a

[1:06:33 - 1:06:40] ▶

fair theory or a fair notion that our ancestors did a better job at this than we do and another thing

[1:06:40 - 1:06:49] ▶

about okay so so we were just talking about how like there's other goldilocks planets and

[1:06:49 - 1:06:54] ▶

there might be there definitely are we know of that are really really far away but like we are so rare

[1:06:54 - 1:06:59] ▶

in this solar system um all the different species that exist on earth i think out of so this is kind

[1:06:59 - 1:07:06] ▶

of getting into what mike masters explained to me he's a uh anthropologist and he was explaining to me

[1:07:06 - 1:07:11] ▶

there's over two million species of animals i didn't mean to interrupt you isn't he the one who um

[1:07:11 - 1:07:16] ▶

am i getting my people mixed up he came up with a paper about a year or two ago that got a lot of

[1:07:16 - 1:07:21] ▶

attention and i i should stop i i'm probably getting it wrong anyway keep going please yeah yeah so he's

[1:07:21 - 1:07:28] ▶

an anthropologist and he and his and he's wrote a bunch of books on on uh his his i think his it's not

[1:07:28 - 1:07:33] ▶

his most recent one but one of them is called the extra tempestrial model and he basically explains

[1:07:33 - 1:07:37] ▶

you know having a background in in this stuff and evolution is that there's 200 species of cat there's 200

[1:07:37 - 1:07:44] ▶

are 2 million catalogued species on planet earth out of the 2 million 20 of them are hominids out

[1:07:44 - 1:07:51] ▶

of the 20 hominids we are the ones that developed technology that was able to escape the earth

[1:07:51 - 1:07:55] ▶

so we are like 0.0001 of all species human beings on earth so that is extremely rare for earth which is

[1:07:55 - 1:08:03] ▶

an extremely rare planet being such a you know having the moon the way it is being this having so

[1:08:03 - 1:08:08] ▶

much water and land being inhabitable teaming with life so now let's go look at all the other

[1:08:08 - 1:08:13] ▶

goldilocks planets that we know of that are so far away how how many of them have the same gravity the

[1:08:13 - 1:08:21] ▶

same atmosphere the same how many of them are water worlds or not and what is the likelihood that those

[1:08:21 - 1:08:28] ▶

beings that evolve on that planet that goldilocks planet are going to be exactly like the 0.0001

[1:08:28 - 1:08:35] ▶

percent right that ended up being human beings on this planet so he's like basically the case he

[1:08:35 - 1:08:40] ▶

made was it's virtually impossible impossible for them to have two arms two two legs upright walking

[1:08:40 - 1:08:44] ▶

hominids there i disagree i disagree with that okay uh respectfully because i'm sure he knows what

[1:08:44 - 1:08:51] ▶

he's talking about but no i think that our body plan is probably not unique to us and i think if you're

[1:08:51 - 1:08:57] ▶

going to again i think because what life does life evolves and life adapts and so if the necessary thing

[1:08:57 - 1:09:07] ▶

that you have to have is an ecosystem that can support enough diversity of life for this to happen

[1:09:07 - 1:09:14] ▶

and yes you need water and you need land you need both and so it's going to be very rare like i completely

[1:09:15 - 1:09:21] ▶

agree with all of that i think that's entirely right but the fact that our body plan is an anomaly i

[1:09:21 - 1:09:28] ▶

don't agree with that i think our body plan is probably i don't really you know do we really truly

[1:09:28 - 1:09:35] ▶

understand what is the mechanism of evolution what is it really is it truly just random mutation or is

[1:09:35 - 1:09:41] ▶

there something else going on i'm not going to pretend that i have that answer but i think that somehow

[1:09:41 - 1:09:47] ▶

life didn't jeff goldblum say this in jurassic park life finds a way and i think that life does find a

[1:09:47 - 1:09:56] ▶

way through adaptation through the need for survival and luck yeah but like this is if you're going to

[1:09:56 - 1:10:09] ▶

engage in planetary domination of any capacity honestly i think this plan this body plan of ours

[1:10:09 - 1:10:17] ▶

might just be the best way to do it because what you need is an ability to manipulate your

[1:10:17 - 1:10:22] ▶

environment that's key and so hands and fingers are perfect for manipulating environment what's better

[1:10:22 - 1:10:29] ▶

than that i don't know of anything that's been better uh and then the thing is once our you know

[1:10:29 - 1:10:35] ▶

australopithecine distant ancestors of four million years ago or three million years ago they realized oh i

[1:10:35 - 1:10:41] ▶

could break this stone wow this is really useful so that encourages further intellectual development

[1:10:41 - 1:10:47] ▶

just just just even napping stones is like that's a skill so you're working cognitively here and so i

[1:10:47 - 1:10:53] ▶

think uh adaptations i don't think it's impossible that life would form adaptations similar to our own

[1:10:53 - 1:11:03] ▶

that you would have humanoid uh beings and other that develop that way in other planets you know i i

[1:11:04 - 1:11:12] ▶

just think that uh i remember as a kid reading like what certain scientists thought like life elsewhere

[1:11:12 - 1:11:17] ▶

would look like and some of those ideas were kind of kind of goofy when i look at them now and i don't

[1:11:17 - 1:11:22] ▶

think they make a lot of sense because a body has to be efficient and it's got a and so you're looking

[1:11:22 - 1:11:27] ▶

at all of these different factors that go into it and it seems to me that bipedal standing upright with

[1:11:27 - 1:11:35] ▶

a couple of extra hands to do your job like that's really that's quite useful and i could imagine that

[1:11:35 - 1:11:40] ▶

happening elsewhere what do you got steve oh the crab species conversion yeah it's similar to what

[1:11:40 - 1:11:45] ▶

he was talking about like you have five different species that have independently grown crab-like

[1:11:45 - 1:11:50] ▶

bodies that's just what works in the ocean for little creatures like that independently unrelated yeah

[1:11:50 - 1:11:55] ▶

it's convergent evolution yes yeah um which means basically species that have not related to each other

[1:11:55 - 1:12:04] ▶

can due to the environments that they live in develop very similar uh yeah like you know bats

[1:12:04 - 1:12:11] ▶

can fly as well as insects can fly right and birds and that type of thing yeah that makes a lot of sense

[1:12:11 - 1:12:17] ▶

um when i brought this up to greer he was he was explaining to me he believes it has something to do

[1:12:17 - 1:12:21] ▶

with morphic resonance this theory by uh rupert sheldrake to win there it's like some sort of a quantum idea

[1:12:21 - 1:12:29] ▶

it's a it's a quantum theory essentially so i guess one of the examples that sheldrake used was this

[1:12:29 - 1:12:35] ▶

a monkey on one side of the world discover some sort of technology figures out how to crack a crack

[1:12:36 - 1:12:41] ▶

some a coconut open with a rock or whatever and at the same time this quantum in this quantum field

[1:12:41 - 1:12:46] ▶

the monkeys on the opposite side of the world figure out the same thing so he thinks that might

[1:12:46 - 1:12:50] ▶

tie into evolution between planets he said this isn't just on the earth yeah hey i'd entertain that i mean

[1:12:50 - 1:12:56] ▶

yeah uh you know there's the secret life of plants which came out over 50 years ago which talks about

[1:12:56 - 1:13:03] ▶

like there's all different ways uh we know that we know that uh fungi under the ground are somehow i

[1:13:03 - 1:13:11] ▶

don't understand it can be a means of communication among plants right all right so how does that work

[1:13:11 - 1:13:16] ▶

i don't know so there something like that could sure why not steve what'd you find about the sun anything

[1:13:16 - 1:13:24] ▶

yeah i mean come up with a goose egg on that i got a ratio that i don't understand oh come on well

[1:13:24 - 1:13:32] ▶

it's certainly less than 120. it's a one to 43 000 is the is the moon's ratio to the uh what the distance

[1:13:32 - 1:13:42] ▶

to the sun and the earth is similar at one to eleven thousand seven hundred i don't know what that means

[1:13:42 - 1:13:49] ▶

i don't know google what's the distance what is the distance of the earth to the sun

[1:13:49 - 1:13:58] ▶

all right we're not gonna waste time on this it i gave up um so how so explain to me what made you

[1:14:03 - 1:14:10] ▶

want to um start working on this project involving usos specifically yeah one of the most uh rewarding

[1:14:10 - 1:14:20] ▶

uh little rabbit holes i've ever gone down so i have um i mean i've had a long standing

[1:14:20 - 1:14:26] ▶

inch usos simply means unidentified submerged objects water-based ufos or water-based uap that's it

[1:14:26 - 1:14:32] ▶

um and you know i've i'd heard of this type of phenomenon for many many years uh it's always been

[1:14:32 - 1:14:40] ▶

very interesting i mean to me intrinsically it's interesting to hear a story about an object that comes

[1:14:40 - 1:14:46] ▶

out of the ocean yeah making a big uh display like that and i thought i mean how many how many of these

[1:14:46 - 1:14:54] ▶

stories exist i have a website uh with a lot of amazing members and uh they'll ask me questions one

[1:14:54 - 1:15:00] ▶

person asked me a question about a particular case from 1945 near the aleutian islands a little

[1:15:00 - 1:15:07] ▶

island called adak island out there and there is a case from the summer of 1945 where a u.s

[1:15:07 - 1:15:14] ▶

transport ship world war the pacific war was still happening uh they were returning from japan to

[1:15:14 - 1:15:20] ▶

seattle and they were by the aleutians and apparently an object appeared to have come out of the water

[1:15:20 - 1:15:26] ▶

uh disk-shaped object circles around the ship twice and then takes off so that was a case that

[1:15:26 - 1:15:32] ▶

was somewhat known to me and it's known to other researchers and i just did like a little bit of

[1:15:32 - 1:15:38] ▶

extra research and i'll put together like a little video things like that from my website but i got

[1:15:38 - 1:15:42] ▶

really intrigued by it and i thought to myself this is back this is three years ago so in 2022

[1:15:42 - 1:15:49] ▶

i thought what other good cases are there like i just wanted to pull them together and i started to

[1:15:49 - 1:15:56] ▶

realize there were a couple of books that had been done on this it was a book back in 1970 by an american

[1:15:56 - 1:16:02] ▶

researcher named ivan sanderson a very good book uh there was another very good book by uh the recently

[1:16:02 - 1:16:09] ▶

deceased researcher named carl feint who wrote a very good book on water and ufos uh but not much else

[1:16:09 - 1:16:15] ▶

there was a couple of others here and there and i thought i want to collect them how many can i find

[1:16:15 - 1:16:21] ▶

like that was where i started and are they good and and i just got more and more into it i started

[1:16:21 - 1:16:26] ▶

doing more of these little mini presentations for my website and it just became by the summer of 2022

[1:16:26 - 1:16:33] ▶

it was kind of a mania and i thought i'll see if i'll do a book see what i come up with and that

[1:16:33 - 1:16:39] ▶

turned out into uh what will be a three-volume project the first volume i just published a couple

[1:16:39 - 1:16:44] ▶

months ago and that and that will be followed by the other two which will be out this year i've

[1:16:44 - 1:16:50] ▶

collected about 700 cases there's many more than that i've no doubt uh i eliminated quite a few in

[1:16:50 - 1:16:58] ▶

looking for them because i really wanted cases that uh had some meat on the bones that you could kind

[1:16:58 - 1:17:04] ▶

of work with and give a good description of so i've got about just under 700 uh from around the world

[1:17:04 - 1:17:10] ▶

and some of them go back kind of far not not into the distant distant ancient uh the first really

[1:17:11 - 1:17:18] ▶

good case that i consider good is actually only from 1717 so like 300 years ago it's a pretty good case

[1:17:18 - 1:17:25] ▶

though and then they become better over the years uh a lot more detail and i just started collecting

[1:17:25 - 1:17:31] ▶

them i wanted to breathe like fresh life uh 99 of them are completely forgotten even by like experienced

[1:17:31 - 1:17:38] ▶

researchers and i think they're just completely they've gone by the boards and i thought uh they

[1:17:38 - 1:17:45] ▶

deserve they deserve a fresh retelling of them and i wanted to do that and then it just morphed into

[1:17:45 - 1:17:54] ▶

more and more things i ended up getting a really great illustrator uh a man named alan levine who's a

[1:17:54 - 1:17:59] ▶

wonderful man and did beautiful illustrations for this project and i did a bunch of other things i wanted

[1:17:59 - 1:18:05] ▶

to put each one on a map i did that and and i did a i ended up doing a statistical analysis that i did

[1:18:05 - 1:18:11] ▶

not anticipate doing when i started but that became kind of a significant thing too and that taught me

[1:18:11 - 1:18:16] ▶

more about this phenomenon just looking at some of the statistics that seemed to jump out at me so all in

[1:18:16 - 1:18:23] ▶

all like you you're seeing this phenomenon evolve over especially the last couple of hundred years

[1:18:23 - 1:18:30] ▶

it's like a little dance like where they're observing us we're observing them and and there is reason to

[1:18:31 - 1:18:41] ▶

believe that they're that they adapted that they've adapted that some of their behaviors due to our radical

[1:18:41 - 1:18:49] ▶

transformation of our own technology especially over the last century i mean it's kind of an amazing

[1:18:49 - 1:18:54] ▶

thing you know you think of where we were in the oceans a little over 100 years ago we the first

[1:18:54 - 1:19:00] ▶

operational submarine didn't deploy until the year 1900 and that was just like you know barely able to

[1:19:00 - 1:19:07] ▶

get in there so we were we were not really going deep into the water right until the 20th century so

[1:19:07 - 1:19:13] ▶

now we have hundreds of them circling the oceans loaded with nuclear warheads exactly exactly so

[1:19:13 - 1:19:19] ▶

that's a major like imagine you're them let's say you you are them you're here you're watching these

[1:19:19 - 1:19:27] ▶

humans these observant intelligent multi-fingered humans who can manipulate their environment who are

[1:19:27 - 1:19:33] ▶

now organized into these collective aggressive communities we call nations peering over the fence

[1:19:33 - 1:19:39] ▶

at each other with deadly weapons that could end the entire planet's existence and you're watching

[1:19:39 - 1:19:43] ▶

this and you're you're realizing okay so they're probably this far away from developing strong ai

[1:19:43 - 1:19:51] ▶

from quantum computing and from leaping into our world like when's that going to happen right

[1:19:51 - 1:19:56] ▶

right because like you can see the whole trajectory you know that like a few generations ago they were

[1:19:56 - 1:20:01] ▶

all living in wooden huts and now wow like here we are to reach the singularity yes exactly so

[1:20:01 - 1:20:07] ▶

i have little doubt that any observing intelligence like they can see this whole thing play out

[1:20:07 - 1:20:12] ▶

and so they're watching but but i have no doubt that we have our own little unique variations on the

[1:20:12 - 1:20:19] ▶

theme of developing intelligence maybe we're more aggressive maybe we're not as i don't know but we're

[1:20:19 - 1:20:25] ▶

certainly very aggressive with each other we're high highly territorial so they're watching all this and

[1:20:25 - 1:20:31] ▶

they're seeing you know 1950s we start developing nuclear submarines that can stay under water basically

[1:20:31 - 1:20:37] ▶

forever and we're now we develop these uh underground sonar systems that are mapping all activity or

[1:20:37 - 1:20:44] ▶

increasingly more and more uh underwater activity including anomalous

[1:20:44 - 1:20:49] ▶

activity right not just soviet or russian subs but everything yeah uh and so they have to adapt and i think

[1:20:51 - 1:20:58] ▶

when i was looking at the statistics of this um this whole thing happened because

[1:20:59 - 1:21:04] ▶

i finished writing all the cases and i'm talking with my wife and she's like you know it'd be a great

[1:21:05 - 1:21:09] ▶

idea if if for each case you had like a bunch of categories so that someone could just like look at

[1:21:09 - 1:21:16] ▶

the categories like uh what color was the craft what shape was the craft what was it doing with the

[1:21:16 - 1:21:21] ▶

what was it under the water did it emerge from the yeah how close are the witnesses and i'm like

[1:21:21 - 1:21:25] ▶

damn it that's a really good idea i didn't want to do it because it was a lot of extra work i had to go back

[1:21:26 - 1:21:30] ▶

over every case and siphon out that information but it was a great idea and i did do it and i'm

[1:21:30 - 1:21:37] ▶

very glad i did it because then that allowed me to put all of that into a spreadsheet and look at

[1:21:37 - 1:21:42] ▶

like almost 700 cases and like 20. it's a big spreadsheet so it's like a database yeah and

[1:21:42 - 1:21:48] ▶

anyone can download it's a free download linked on my website you can go check it out but basically

[1:21:48 - 1:21:53] ▶

i'm an amateur with statistical analysis i can't pretend that i'm some genius at it but i

[1:21:54 - 1:22:00] ▶

you can still see things so like one thing i noticed is one category was i broke it down into

[1:22:00 - 1:22:05] ▶

day or night simple did this happen when the sun was out or when it was dark like very simple

[1:22:05 - 1:22:10] ▶

little metric there and one thing i noticed was that up until around 1967 68 it was almost exactly

[1:22:11 - 1:22:19] ▶

50 50 50 day versus night and then suddenly starting in the late 60s usos yeah usos exactly

[1:22:19 - 1:22:26] ▶

starting in the late 60s it goes to 75 at night and it was it remained that to this day 75 now i mean

[1:22:27 - 1:22:35] ▶

does that mean i just have too small a data sample and i need to get more cases and maybe could it be

[1:22:36 - 1:22:41] ▶

that i i was just somehow uh not selecting a broad spectrum of cases i mean all of that's possible i

[1:22:41 - 1:22:49] ▶

don't think so i try to pick what i thought were the best and most meaty cases and something seems

[1:22:49 - 1:22:56] ▶

to have happened in the late 60s how do you go about mining all this information do you just look for

[1:22:56 - 1:23:02] ▶

and just scrub the internet for cases involving usos or do you interview specific people ask them a little

[1:23:02 - 1:23:08] ▶

bit of both okay mostly mostly mostly pulling out the information from there are a couple of uh

[1:23:08 - 1:23:13] ▶

websites where there's a lot of information so one is the national ufo reporting center that's run by

[1:23:13 - 1:23:18] ▶

a very wonderful man named peter davenport who's run it for years and uh they've got a hundred thousand

[1:23:18 - 1:23:24] ▶

or more cases there that he's collected going back many many years so that's that's important uh mufon

[1:23:24 - 1:23:31] ▶

the mutual ufo network has a database which i was they graciously allowed me to use their database

[1:23:31 - 1:23:37] ▶

which is nice because i'm not a mufon investigator but they uh they knew what kind of work i was doing

[1:23:37 - 1:23:42] ▶

and they said yes you can and then uh i mentioned carl feint earlier he uh had a website where he

[1:23:42 - 1:23:49] ▶

collected a bunch of these cases so i looked at all of those and then there's books and like out of

[1:23:49 - 1:23:54] ▶

print magazines from the 1970s that i'd look for and just get them and and um find these cases where

[1:23:54 - 1:24:01] ▶

are people seeing these uf usos for the most part is there is there is there one spot in the world

[1:24:02 - 1:24:08] ▶

where they seem to be most mostly condensed to or confined to and second second question is what

[1:24:08 - 1:24:13] ▶

kind of people are reporting these yeah there are hot spots we probably part of the problem with usos

[1:24:13 - 1:24:19] ▶

is we're all like we live on the land we're landlubbers and so usually you're not out in the middle

[1:24:19 - 1:24:25] ▶

of the pacific ocean so that's a problem right there uh navies are the u.s navies but they don't like to

[1:24:25 - 1:24:30] ▶

talk you'll get navy stories from some navy guy like 20 30 or more years after they retire when

[1:24:30 - 1:24:40] ▶

sometimes anonymously they will report something to some uh website somewhere like that happens and i've

[1:24:40 - 1:24:47] ▶

tried to collect all of those they're very interesting but basically we are you know so when

[1:24:47 - 1:24:53] ▶

people see these they're usually on the coast or maybe they're on a lake or river but if it's an ocean

[1:24:53 - 1:24:58] ▶

base which is most of them it's long along the coast that's where people about like um oil rigs

[1:24:58 - 1:25:03] ▶

yeah a couple of them there's a good one from the gulf of mexico am i a gulf of america gulf of

[1:25:03 - 1:25:08] ▶

mexico gulf of america brother that's where we are right there gulf's right there exactly so one of my

[1:25:08 - 1:25:14] ▶

there's quite a few from the gulf here quite a few and uh one of my favorite ones this is from the

[1:25:14 - 1:25:19] ▶

national ufo reporting center from 2017 it's not that long ago a uh guy operating on a rig

[1:25:19 - 1:25:25] ▶

rig wrote into new fork the website and he uh described this he said i was with a bunch of

[1:25:25 - 1:25:32] ▶

other guys on our rig and there was another rig he said a couple of miles over this way and in between

[1:25:32 - 1:25:36] ▶

this humongous gargantuan like football field plus size object comes out of the water dripping water

[1:25:37 - 1:25:45] ▶

flying saucer just ball field that's what he wrote

[1:25:45 - 1:25:49] ▶

and we're watching it drip water we're kind of blown away and it just zips off it's gone

[1:25:49 - 1:25:57] ▶

now how do you investigate that it's almost impossible so peter davenport wrote as an addendum

[1:25:58 - 1:26:04] ▶

to this case he said i spoke with the witness on the phone peter will do that sometimes he said i found

[1:26:04 - 1:26:10] ▶

him to be highly credible highly this and that like apparently this was a very well-spoken

[1:26:10 - 1:26:17] ▶

believable individual peter found him incredible and that's really all that we have on this but

[1:26:17 - 1:26:21] ▶

it's a pretty interesting story and i i tend i mean i read the account and that's one of the cases that

[1:26:21 - 1:26:25] ▶

goes into the third volume of my study did that corroborate any other accounts were there any other

[1:26:25 - 1:26:31] ▶

similar accounts with football field really yeah also not just usos but you get ufo cases of

[1:26:31 - 1:26:39] ▶

gargantuan size objects that have been reported over over the years you wonder like what are they doing

[1:26:39 - 1:26:44] ▶

it's like a small city you know it's the best place to hide it really is the oceans are

[1:26:44 - 1:26:49] ▶

yeah you know there's a a really great guy uh named dr kevin newth out there he's teaching i've

[1:26:50 - 1:26:55] ▶

heard of that yeah yeah kevin's a really good man he teaches at albany and in new york state

[1:26:55 - 1:27:01] ▶

i think he's on our list steve he's coming on the podcast is he really yeah he's good good good shout

[1:27:02 - 1:27:08] ▶

how to kevin well yeah he um he made a really uh a really good insight on this and he just said look

[1:27:08 - 1:27:15] ▶

you know look at the ocean so a lot of things about it first of all it's non-compressible in other words

[1:27:15 - 1:27:21] ▶

the pressure is constant so that could be that could be helpful it's it's certainly protective

[1:27:21 - 1:27:27] ▶

like if you are from a place where maybe our solar radiation is not necessarily the right thing for you

[1:27:27 - 1:27:32] ▶

you come from somewhere else the ocean is a protective place for that it's uh temperature

[1:27:32 - 1:27:38] ▶

variations are far less in the ocean than they would be above the ocean and a lot of other things

[1:27:38 - 1:27:44] ▶

he said you know there's a lot of good reasons to if you are from somewhere else what if you are from

[1:27:44 - 1:27:50] ▶

a water right society sure well the oceans might be feel like home so there are good reasons and then

[1:27:50 - 1:27:57] ▶

of course there's also our skies are just littered with airplanes so there's that there's that

[1:27:57 - 1:28:01] ▶

yeah and and if you if you are interested in these human creatures well you know that they live on the

[1:28:02 - 1:28:06] ▶

land so we might hang out in the ocean stay out of the way so there's good reasons that the oceans would

[1:28:06 - 1:28:11] ▶

be providing you have the technology to do it but if you've got that then sure why not the uh you asked

[1:28:11 - 1:28:18] ▶

for hot spots so i'll answer that one is puerto rico and uh particularly i think i think uh all around

[1:28:18 - 1:28:25] ▶

puerto rico really especially the the east west and northern coasts the southern coast yeah but i think

[1:28:25 - 1:28:34] ▶

i just haven't found as many but along the um uh you get like northwest aguadilla man or you go out to

[1:28:34 - 1:28:42] ▶

the east uh the u.s navy's got a big presence at a place called roosevelt roads there facing viecke

[1:28:42 - 1:28:48] ▶

island there's a lot of activity there but north of the island you've got the great puerto rico trench

[1:28:48 - 1:28:53] ▶

which goes almost 30 000 feet down it's like it's super deep and we cannot we can't get down there but

[1:28:54 - 1:29:03] ▶

there are i'm sorry how deep did you say uh about 20 20 29 000 feet i think maybe close to 30 000 feet

[1:29:03 - 1:29:11] ▶

so you're talking you find a map almost six miles down it's it's not quite as deep as the mariana

[1:29:11 - 1:29:17] ▶

trench in the pacific but it's you know close and it's quite large several hundred miles so you have um

[1:29:17 - 1:29:24] ▶

there are a number of pretty good cases from that area he's showing pulling something up and who um

[1:29:25 - 1:29:31] ▶

who is reporting these cases in aguadilla or around northern puerto rico aguadilla yeah that's

[1:29:31 - 1:29:37] ▶

not exactly at the trench but it's uh you know not that far from it i guess right or around this area

[1:29:37 - 1:29:43] ▶

roughly the cases go uh good puerto rico trench cases go back to the early 60s that i found maybe even in

[1:29:43 - 1:29:51] ▶

the 50s but they really start to collect in the 60s early 1960s uh gosh there's some good aguadilla cases

[1:29:51 - 1:29:59] ▶

from uh the 70s and the 80s and the 90s and the 2000s like they they've got a throughout there's

[1:29:59 - 1:30:06] ▶

quite a few interesting ones that's a picture on that puerto rico the puerto rico trench go to that

[1:30:06 - 1:30:10] ▶

one to the left over there top left yeah right there blow that up so i can see it

[1:30:10 - 1:30:14] ▶

oh wow tilted so that's that is on is that northeast south is that oriented the right way or is that

[1:30:17 - 1:30:24] ▶

reverse it's northern plate is over here yeah so that north is to the right correct yeah yeah and

[1:30:24 - 1:30:30] ▶

that would mean that agua dia is where on the top left top top top right excuse me top right okay i

[1:30:30 - 1:30:37] ▶

see well you've got it yeah that gets really deep right there wow yeah it's super super extremely deep

[1:30:37 - 1:30:45] ▶

are there military people that are reporting any of this stuff yes yes absolutely uh well reporting is

[1:30:45 - 1:30:51] ▶

a hard way to put it so years after the fact it comes these stories will come out you know in

[1:30:51 - 1:30:59] ▶

a variety of ways yeah so puerto rico is one hot spot uh we hear a lot of talk about california's

[1:30:59 - 1:31:05] ▶

catalina island oh yeah near la there that absolutely the entire uh atlantic seaboard of the united states

[1:31:05 - 1:31:12] ▶

going into canada uh florida where we are is extremely very very active on all sides of the peninsula

[1:31:12 - 1:31:19] ▶

really florida yeah absolutely but going all the way up the eastern u.s coast but then that's

[1:31:19 - 1:31:25] ▶

see here's the problem with this so usos just like ufos or uap now it's very us dominated in terms

[1:31:26 - 1:31:35] ▶

of reporting americans report this stuff way more seems well we have better reporting infrastructure

[1:31:35 - 1:31:43] ▶

we've got mufon we've got the national ufo reporting center and so we're able to get these other

[1:31:43 - 1:31:48] ▶

regions of the world i don't really think that they have the the same infrastructure for collecting

[1:31:49 - 1:31:54] ▶

these cases right it's hard now there are some area italy the italian researchers

[1:31:54 - 1:31:58] ▶

have collected a lot they do a lot of very good work out there um

[1:31:59 - 1:32:04] ▶

and you get some good cases out by norway and britain absolutely about south america yeah south america

[1:32:06 - 1:32:13] ▶

there's there's good i i mean i would have tended to think i'd find more because i you just you kind

[1:32:13 - 1:32:20] ▶

of like know there's a lot of activity going on in south america and there's a decent number of uso

[1:32:20 - 1:32:25] ▶

cases yeah so down by buenos aires and argentina also all along brazil brazil's got a lot this has

[1:32:25 - 1:32:31] ▶

got a crazy history just a general of ufos yes absolutely and recently learned about that uh that

[1:32:31 - 1:32:36] ▶

jacques valet book where there was like a massacre down there polaris yeah yes at the amazon um the

[1:32:36 - 1:32:42] ▶

delta reaching out to the atlantic ocean in the late 70s yes yes yes um and there's a lot of those

[1:32:42 - 1:32:49] ▶

that are jet genuine uso cases so many of those were seen in the water coming out of the water

[1:32:49 - 1:32:57] ▶

entering the water that's an incredibly ecologically important area part of this world i mean it's

[1:32:57 - 1:33:03] ▶

it's the most massive amount of water flow i think going into any ocean on the planet amazon river yeah

[1:33:03 - 1:33:09] ▶

out of the amazon it's massive uh this is incredibly ecologically important and rich like estuary

[1:33:09 - 1:33:16] ▶

where you've got um it's very it's just very important so maybe there's part of that that's

[1:33:16 - 1:33:22] ▶

going on maybe they're interested in that yeah um but anyway yeah there were some cases in the late 70s

[1:33:22 - 1:33:28] ▶

there where people were uh killed and and severely injured uh by these objects and that that definitely

[1:33:28 - 1:33:37] ▶

appears to be the case yeah it was a lot it seemed like the way it was described to me was that there was

[1:33:37 - 1:33:41] ▶

like it seemed like a slaughter of people or less a lot of a lot of people being being murdered

[1:33:41 - 1:33:46] ▶

and not in a kind way by something yeah and in fact there are claims that this type of thing goes

[1:33:46 - 1:33:51] ▶

on to this day not necessarily in that specific region but other parts of south america i've really

[1:33:51 - 1:33:57] ▶

i have i've heard how recently like quite recently uh there's a gentleman i know named tim alberino

[1:33:57 - 1:34:05] ▶

i really like tim uh he went down where the hell was he was it peru maybe anyway just in the last few

[1:34:05 - 1:34:14] ▶

years some very bizarre cases of uh like human mutilation type cases um that he was looking into

[1:34:14 - 1:34:23] ▶

after i i wish i could and these are with these are with i wish i could remember this a little bit

[1:34:24 - 1:34:28] ▶

better than i do are these with um indigenous people or are these with sophist like like like uh

[1:34:28 - 1:34:35] ▶

uh english speaking uh indigenous not living completely indigenous lifestyles but you know

[1:34:35 - 1:34:43] ▶

very kind of uh like rural yeah south american type yeah yeah i mean they have some technology so

[1:34:43 - 1:34:50] ▶

they're not they're not uncontacted tribes no but they are uh wow they live a more basic kind of a life

[1:34:50 - 1:34:56] ▶

than than we might hear with technology and they're described did were there any details to like

[1:34:56 - 1:35:03] ▶

who was responsible for this or like what their what their descriptions were of who was doing this

[1:35:03 - 1:35:09] ▶

stuff well there's you know tracy's in the next room she could probably jump in on this better than i

[1:35:09 - 1:35:13] ▶

could but i'll just say that uh there's reason to wonder that this was a human operation going on

[1:35:13 - 1:35:20] ▶

that is not necessarily an alien thing that this could be some kind of really uh like a diabolical

[1:35:20 - 1:35:26] ▶

covert op type of a thing happening possibly i i don't want to say much more because i i'm afraid

[1:35:26 - 1:35:33] ▶

i'm going to say something that's not accurate okay i see um but yeah this is look this is a subject where

[1:35:33 - 1:35:40] ▶

i think i you know started this 30 years ago thinking i'm gonna go down this rabbit hole for a

[1:35:42 - 1:35:45] ▶

couple of months and here you are like it just opens up uh all of these fascinating and sometimes

[1:35:45 - 1:35:54] ▶

disturbing possibilities that are out there you know out of all the uso cases that you went over

[1:35:54 - 1:36:00] ▶

which one was it were there any that stuck out to you or that many really quite a few that i think are

[1:36:00 - 1:36:05] ▶

just amazing what i could i could throw out a couple for you throw a couple also i do want to i want to

[1:36:05 - 1:36:12] ▶

know more about that 1717 case yeah i'll tell you that right now that's right off the coast of

[1:36:12 - 1:36:16] ▶

martinique that's in the caribbean okay so it's not that far from where we are here we're in florida

[1:36:16 - 1:36:20] ▶

uh the name of the captain i cannot recall his name chevalier something uh he wrote in his log this is so

[1:36:21 - 1:36:30] ▶

there this is at um it's after midnight so it's dark uh there was i looked into this there was like a half

[1:36:30 - 1:36:38] ▶

moon out so there was some light that was available and what he claimed to have seen

[1:36:38 - 1:36:43] ▶

uh was a a vertical orientation like a like a rod he said was like a mast of a ship so like you and

[1:36:45 - 1:36:52] ▶

i envision like a a straight perpendicular rod of some sort but above the water uh moving along with his ship

[1:36:52 - 1:37:02] ▶

it's not the best case but it's not the worst like it's it was i decided to include it because

[1:37:02 - 1:37:08] ▶

he wrote in a very matter-of-fact way it was like 1717 17 17. wow yeah this is way before submarines

[1:37:09 - 1:37:16] ▶

obviously uh absolutely and uh the 18th century which that is part of that i don't know there's not

[1:37:16 - 1:37:23] ▶

many that i have found there's an interesting one off the coast of southern france i think from 1740

[1:37:23 - 1:37:28] ▶

that's kind of interesting and then there's one from a river a little small river in scotland in 17

[1:37:28 - 1:37:34] ▶

67 and i think that might be it for the only like a couple of cases it really starts going

[1:37:35 - 1:37:41] ▶

the first really good one that i just was kind of really taken by took place in 1825 and this was on

[1:37:42 - 1:37:50] ▶

a british vessel where they had just returned from hawaii in fact uh well there's a lot of interesting

[1:37:50 - 1:38:01] ▶

stories going on here but they were coming back from hawaii and they were going down the pacific

[1:38:01 - 1:38:05] ▶

uh and they were going to end up in chile okay so they were down by uh the cook islands

[1:38:05 - 1:38:12] ▶

islands so it's like way down in the south part of the specific the pacific ocean and it's 3 30 in

[1:38:12 - 1:38:18] ▶

the morning the ships uh there was a naturalist aboard the ship i think of like in the movie master

[1:38:18 - 1:38:24] ▶

and commander they you know the buddy of uh russell crowe the captain was this naturalist uh that they

[1:38:24 - 1:38:31] ▶

had aboard the ship and it's around the same time period so i'm thinking something like that he writes

[1:38:31 - 1:38:36] ▶

in his log it's 1825 his name was andrew bloxum we've got his name his his um book is published

[1:38:36 - 1:38:43] ▶

you can find the pdf online i have a link to it from my book and he said yeah 3 30 the uh the watch

[1:38:43 - 1:38:49] ▶

on the ship reported a spherical object emerging from the ocean he said it was like it looked like a red

[1:38:49 - 1:39:00] ▶

cannon shot coming out of the water so it was like a deep orange type of a color but incredible

[1:39:00 - 1:39:06] ▶

bright he said it was so bright and he literally said you could pick a pin off the deck it lifted up

[1:39:06 - 1:39:13] ▶

to a certain elevation and then went back down into the water and then came up a second time and then

[1:39:13 - 1:39:20] ▶

went back into the water now you know how many naturalistic explanations can you think of that can

[1:39:20 - 1:39:27] ▶

account for this i can't think of any and bloxum writes this in a very straightforward way i mean

[1:39:27 - 1:39:33] ▶

you read the rest of his diaries i read some of it i mean he was clearly a very uh meticulous

[1:39:34 - 1:39:41] ▶

very rational man and a very intelligent guy and this just is this one bizarre entry in his

[1:39:41 - 1:39:48] ▶

in his journal from august 12 1825 that's a heck of a case and i thought that's like the first really

[1:39:48 - 1:39:55] ▶

really cool case do you remember how close or how far they were from land

[1:39:56 - 1:39:59] ▶

they were off the cook islands so those are i don't know how close they were to that they were

[1:39:59 - 1:40:06] ▶

i i don't think they were close to land i think they were out there they're out in the ocean i don't

[1:40:06 - 1:40:10] ▶

know exactly so he said you know and there's some other good ones from the 19th century there's one

[1:40:10 - 1:40:16] ▶

from uh is he what's that there i i found the story uh block sam with a with an x where is it i

[1:40:16 - 1:40:24] ▶

just found it oh you got it yeah well this is the story good good deal yeah any what does it got you

[1:40:24 - 1:40:32] ▶

got illustrations or what yeah i think this is the illustration of that event oh or at least it's

[1:40:32 - 1:40:38] ▶

included with the story oh okay looks like an iceberg behind it right yeah they weren't by

[1:40:38 - 1:40:45] ▶

icebergs yeah cook islands there wouldn't have been icebergs no but that's the name andrew blocksham

[1:40:45 - 1:40:51] ▶

okay interesting yeah the hms blonde correct that's the ship and what year again 18 25 25 yeah wow

[1:40:51 - 1:41:00] ▶

what was the size of the thing did they do i he you know i don't think he was a direct witness i think

[1:41:01 - 1:41:07] ▶

he was reporting what the night watch reported ah so there's that so he's not a direct witness so

[1:41:07 - 1:41:12] ▶

okay you can take that away from him okay but they um i don't know if they had a really good size

[1:41:12 - 1:41:19] ▶

estimate i get the impression it was kind of large i mean it was noticeable it was very bright lit up the

[1:41:19 - 1:41:24] ▶

deck of the ship by the way so fast forward about 150 years to 1971 okay this is going into my next volume

[1:41:24 - 1:41:34] ▶

uh and uh the uss john f kennedy aircraft carrier so is near puerto rico just saying uh they had just

[1:41:34 - 1:41:46] ▶

they were uh just finished what were called car quals carrier qualifications so they had done this

[1:41:46 - 1:41:51] ▶

is a very involved series of uh exercises and they had just completed that it's 8 30 july 2nd 1971

[1:41:51 - 1:41:59] ▶

and the man operating communications and we have his name he he in fact uh reported this to stephen

[1:41:59 - 1:42:05] ▶

greer 25 years ago and it's rep it's in greer's book disclosure which he wrote back then and he his

[1:42:05 - 1:42:12] ▶

name is james copp with a k and he also reported this to a couple of other um websites uh at the time

[1:42:12 - 1:42:21] ▶

so he's operating communications on the j the jfk carrier 8 30 at night and he says

[1:42:21 - 1:42:31] ▶

suddenly all of the communication he discussed the the way the communications on the ship where he

[1:42:33 - 1:42:37] ▶

said incoming and outgoing he said suddenly everything was just gibberish not everything

[1:42:37 - 1:42:42] ▶

coming in was just garbled messages he's like what what's going on here and then he hears i'm laughing

[1:42:42 - 1:42:48] ▶

but it's really it's kind of not that funny he hears on the intercom someone screaming it's god

[1:42:48 - 1:42:55] ▶

it's the end of the world so he's thinking what is going on he goes he's able to go out and look

[1:42:55 - 1:43:03] ▶

and he sees almost what is described in in bloxam's account from 1825 he sees a glowing orange sphere

[1:43:04 - 1:43:13] ▶

hovering above or near the jfk he said it gave off about half the strength of sunlight

[1:43:13 - 1:43:22] ▶

so it's kind of bright and uh there there are sailors who were having a really difficult time

[1:43:22 - 1:43:30] ▶

emotionally with this uh one he said later definitely had to be sedated in some way or another and

[1:43:30 - 1:43:36] ▶

whatever so he's watching this for maybe half a minute not long and then the ship goes to battle

[1:43:36 - 1:43:42] ▶

stations general quarters so they've all got to go so he has to go back to his uh communication

[1:43:42 - 1:43:47] ▶

station where he says for the next uh 20 25 minutes uh the ship was on general quarters and

[1:43:47 - 1:43:54] ▶

the communications were just down and he also uh stated that he believed that the weapons like aircraft

[1:43:54 - 1:44:02] ▶

like um i think what do they have f4s they were not operational so the aircraft would not fly or

[1:44:02 - 1:44:08] ▶

weapons would not operate so anyway i've mentioned this because that glowing spherical

[1:44:08 - 1:44:15] ▶

object i mean to me it's almost it seems like it could have been identical to the one from the 1820s

[1:44:16 - 1:44:21] ▶

and you get this same type of glowing globular sphere wow yeah like what is that right what is that

[1:44:22 - 1:44:30] ▶

i wonder how many of them there are you know because like the most the first one that i ever heard

[1:44:30 - 1:44:35] ▶

about was the tic tac yeah and that thing was like zooming around zipping around and uh i think

[1:44:35 - 1:44:42] ▶

i think there's a good chance there was something below the water there too oh you think you think

[1:44:42 - 1:44:47] ▶

there was a bigger ship that it came out of or something i think so yeah there's talk about that

[1:44:47 - 1:44:51] ▶

and it's not 100 confirmed but that's what i i think is probably the case but yeah well we the tic

[1:44:51 - 1:44:58] ▶

tic tac's a great case for sure absolutely for sure um i mean that one's like apparently it's

[1:44:58 - 1:45:04] ▶

documented on all of his uh his radar right even though it hasn't been released well yeah there's

[1:45:04 - 1:45:10] ▶

and there's a lot of good witnesses for that um kevin day who operated the radar aboard the uss princeton

[1:45:10 - 1:45:16] ▶

who's a very decent man as a friend of friend of ours uh was there and uh has talked about this

[1:45:16 - 1:45:22] ▶

and great to tell and of course we have david fravor's testimony and and um a number of the

[1:45:22 - 1:45:27] ▶

other witnesses now have come out um who have have discussed it so i i don't think that we have any

[1:45:27 - 1:45:33] ▶

doubt that something very very unusual happened there for sure of extremely high order of intelligence

[1:45:33 - 1:45:39] ▶

as well i mean anything that can appear at the what's called the cap the cap point before you get

[1:45:39 - 1:45:45] ▶

there they get there uh it's it's like time travel some well a put off called it space time metric

[1:45:45 - 1:45:56] ▶

engineering maybe that's what they're doing wow uh in some way that's san diego right that's not

[1:45:56 - 1:46:01] ▶

anywhere near catalina it's off the coast of that happened off the coast of lower baja california

[1:46:01 - 1:46:05] ▶

oh that was in near baja california i think yeah a little south probably south uh west of san diego i

[1:46:05 - 1:46:11] ▶

think okay not not that far right but off out out there in the pacific

[1:46:11 - 1:46:17] ▶

i have there's a lot of crazy stuff out in the ocean i have a friend who lives in tijuana and he

[1:46:18 - 1:46:22] ▶

says there's all kinds of like ufo stuff going on out there especially like in the water like uso type

[1:46:22 - 1:46:27] ▶

stuff and stuff that you really don't hear about in like the media in the us yeah i think that there's

[1:46:27 - 1:46:31] ▶

a lot of anecdotal information in mexico i have uh you know we spoke to a couple of years ago a gentleman

[1:46:31 - 1:46:39] ▶

who had an interesting uso uh account uh off the yucatan part of it you know on the other side

[1:46:39 - 1:46:46] ▶

oh really but yeah i think i think i don't think they get reported officially so they're just like

[1:46:46 - 1:46:52] ▶

the stories are floating around there as it were and uh how i i have no doubt there's far more

[1:46:52 - 1:46:59] ▶

cases that are connected to mexico than we probably you know i have been able to find you know the just

[1:46:59 - 1:47:06] ▶

the reports from like uh robert hastings with the ufos and nukes and the the the saucers showing up

[1:47:06 - 1:47:13] ▶

above these nuclear missile silos and things like this i can't imagine that there's not some crazy

[1:47:13 - 1:47:19] ▶

case of like a ufo like stopping a nuclear submarine or something or interacting with like a big nuclear

[1:47:19 - 1:47:24] ▶

sub well we have some pretty good account actually the best accounts of that by the way i'm a very big

[1:47:24 - 1:47:29] ▶

admirer of robert hastings work especially on nukes very very important so i'm glad you mentioned him

[1:47:29 - 1:47:35] ▶

but uh yeah the best nuclear submarine stories that i've been able to find i mean there's a

[1:47:36 - 1:47:43] ▶

one or two of american but the soviets soviet union um yeah they have some we we learned about them i think a

[1:47:43 - 1:47:53] ▶

lot of this happened when the soviet union fell in in 1991 and for a while there a lot of these stories

[1:47:53 - 1:48:01] ▶

came out a lot of kgb files and this type of thing and so we uh soviet navy in the late 60s and through

[1:48:01 - 1:48:11] ▶

the 70s and probably beyond reported something and i'm sure i'm going to mispronounce this it's spelled

[1:48:11 - 1:48:18] ▶

uh kava carry it's a russian word it apparently means frogs because these things would make a croaking

[1:48:18 - 1:48:24] ▶

sound in the water so soviet submarines and i think this is most active in the northern atlantic

[1:48:24 - 1:48:31] ▶

very strategically important area if you're operating submarines and they were encountering these and

[1:48:31 - 1:48:39] ▶

at first so these objects would be in the water uh they'd hear these bizarre croaking type sounds

[1:48:39 - 1:48:45] ▶

apparently and wonder is this americans are they what is this is some kind of new technology we have

[1:48:45 - 1:48:51] ▶

to worry about and how were they hearing it through their equipment hearing yeah through their equipment

[1:48:51 - 1:48:56] ▶

and apparently these things would like circle around them that's not easy to do circle around a nuclear

[1:48:56 - 1:49:02] ▶

submarine right uh but that would happen and uh there would be multiple ones of them uh they'd be

[1:49:02 - 1:49:09] ▶

surrounded they never got a sense that these were acting in a hostile manner uh to your question like

[1:49:09 - 1:49:16] ▶

are they engaging in that i don't i don't i'm not aware that the soviets believed that these kovakary

[1:49:16 - 1:49:25] ▶

were operating in a hostile way but they were spooky and i think they they definitely spooked them and

[1:49:25 - 1:49:31] ▶

there was a um apparently a a formal classified study of them that was supposedly within the soviet

[1:49:31 - 1:49:39] ▶

military structure and it's not available that i'm aware of but yeah it's interesting because you only

[1:49:39 - 1:49:45] ▶

have your your equipment to measure what's going on outside you don't really have those submarines don't

[1:49:45 - 1:49:51] ▶

have giant windows to see like no what's going on out there so those things could probably evade any

[1:49:51 - 1:49:55] ▶

kind of detection one of the things that just fascinates me about uh these usos is like whenever

[1:49:55 - 1:50:03] ▶

i write about any of these i i try to whatever extent possible to put myself in that position

[1:50:03 - 1:50:08] ▶

to because you want to be you want to be accurate you want to be analytical but you really want to like

[1:50:09 - 1:50:14] ▶

i want to feel what is it like to be there so imagine it's the cold war it's the 1960s or 70s and

[1:50:14 - 1:50:23] ▶

you're in the water and you're hunting for the enemy you're a russian you're hunting for the americans

[1:50:23 - 1:50:29] ▶

you're american you're hunting for the russians and it's pitch black and you know and then there's

[1:50:29 - 1:50:36] ▶

this other thing there's this other presence there i mean it's not hard to see why there would be secrecy

[1:50:36 - 1:50:46] ▶

you're hunting from their point of view about this i mean honestly i mean uh but the amount of drama

[1:50:46 - 1:50:54] ▶

is my microphone am i okay here oh is he good see this up am i okay close a little bit just in case

[1:50:54 - 1:50:58] ▶

i don't want to mess it up yeah he's good okay thank you um i i just have to think like the drama

[1:50:58 - 1:51:04] ▶

the human drama has got to be off the charts for these people to have experiences and that was one of the

[1:51:04 - 1:51:10] ▶

rail draws for me to uh to engage in this project yeah that's one of the things i think about a lot

[1:51:10 - 1:51:17] ▶

too like you know there's various ideas of like how many people in the world know the truth about

[1:51:17 - 1:51:23] ▶

this stuff right like how many people that exist on earth know everything outside of the compartmented

[1:51:23 - 1:51:29] ▶

you know that mean people that have all the pieces to the puzzle maybe maybe 100 200 300 yeah i

[1:51:30 - 1:51:34] ▶

mean i've spent 30 plus years and i'm not one of them right i've tried right i try to get a handle

[1:51:34 - 1:51:40] ▶

on it but uh there's massive gaps i like i have that i always imagine like if you were one of those

[1:51:40 - 1:51:46] ▶

people if they do exist if there is anyone who has the whole picture the whole every piece of the pie

[1:51:46 - 1:51:50] ▶

what that must do to your worldview and your your you know what i mean just like your life and and

[1:51:52 - 1:51:59] ▶

and separating your work life from your home from your family life if you have a family life if you

[1:51:59 - 1:52:05] ▶

could if that can exist knowing that right about 15 16 years ago i think i coined a phrase which is

[1:52:05 - 1:52:12] ▶

still out there i still hear it's called breakaway civilization so it's the idea that you coined that

[1:52:12 - 1:52:19] ▶

phrase yeah yeah really it was my little thing yeah oh wow um and i was thinking because i'm interested

[1:52:19 - 1:52:26] ▶

in uh the study of human civilizations is a very um kind of i i once read uh the condensed version

[1:52:26 - 1:52:34] ▶

of a book by arnold toynby a really great historian it's like the mozart of historians in my opinion and

[1:52:34 - 1:52:39] ▶

he wrote this arnold toynby he's a he was a genius okay and i think he died in the 40s um but he wrote this

[1:52:39 - 1:52:48] ▶

something that is really not popular anymore he did these meta historians like he was looking at the grand

[1:52:48 - 1:52:54] ▶

progress of of human society and what is it that makes a civilization and so he did this comparative

[1:52:54 - 1:53:04] ▶

study of human civilizations anyway i was reading that at the time this is 2007 2008 and um i thought you

[1:53:04 - 1:53:13] ▶

know what about a civilization that develops out of the classified world that we don't know about

[1:53:13 - 1:53:23] ▶

um based on roswell tech or whatever other advanced tech that is kept secret but we had examples

[1:53:24 - 1:53:33] ▶

during the cold war of of separate scientific infrastructure in the soviet union they had a

[1:53:33 - 1:53:37] ▶

separate scientific infrastructure that in a lot of ways was based on some really bizarre things they

[1:53:37 - 1:53:43] ▶

had uh this guy named trophy my sinko who had these very unusual ideas about uh biology and evolution that

[1:53:43 - 1:53:52] ▶

were only uh designed to conform with soviet communist ideology and but it forced an entire infrastructure

[1:53:52 - 1:54:01] ▶

to go down this dead end path basically of research so like there are now that's something we know about

[1:54:02 - 1:54:08] ▶

but could you develop i i asked myself based on ufo tech that is kept secret

[1:54:09 - 1:54:16] ▶

uh which i was really thinking a lot about of course at that time to the point where you would have

[1:54:16 - 1:54:24] ▶

breakthroughs in terms of understanding whether it's gravity or material science or understanding who

[1:54:24 - 1:54:30] ▶

these beings are yeah that you cannot share with the rest of the world right but you that doesn't stop

[1:54:30 - 1:54:35] ▶

you from continuing on right to develop this and so you you end up going on your own path and you kind of

[1:54:35 - 1:54:43] ▶

break away intellectually and cosmologically and maybe technologically uh from you know us us little

[1:54:43 - 1:54:51] ▶

proles living on the surface but you you are aware of anti-grav research you have the ability to go off

[1:54:51 - 1:54:57] ▶

world maybe you have the ability to learn who these other beings are more than so that would i called it

[1:54:57 - 1:55:03] ▶

a breakaway civilization when that's broken away from our own that doesn't necessarily mean that they all

[1:55:03 - 1:55:10] ▶

live on mars and like what's that alternative three terms but it could mean as you were just saying

[1:55:10 - 1:55:15] ▶

you've got a job in the classified world you go off you punch the clock and you go into your

[1:55:16 - 1:55:21] ▶

classified project which then through that you probably go into through another classified project

[1:55:21 - 1:55:26] ▶

and maybe a third and so you've got all these layers of cover and then you do your work you're in

[1:55:26 - 1:55:31] ▶

the breakaway and then you come home you say hello to your spouse how was work dear oh it's pretty good

[1:55:31 - 1:55:36] ▶

day you know and you can't really talk about it so that i think is probably that was my my vision of it

[1:55:36 - 1:55:43] ▶

other people have taken the idea joseph farrell we talked about joseph he has he actually wrote about

[1:55:44 - 1:55:49] ▶

it as well and you could you can go pretty far with it um i'm usually i'm more cautious about it than

[1:55:49 - 1:55:55] ▶

almost anyone else that i've heard uh talk about it but i do believe that there's probably something like

[1:55:55 - 1:56:01] ▶

that well if you were uh one of the executives of one of those corporations that did have this

[1:56:01 - 1:56:05] ▶

technology that's been evolving since the 50s with some sort of crazy physical understanding of

[1:56:05 - 1:56:11] ▶

physics that uh the rest of the world doesn't even understand and you now have weapons that are more

[1:56:11 - 1:56:18] ▶

powerful than the united states military russia china all of them combined and the head of the

[1:56:18 - 1:56:24] ▶

joint chiefs of staff wants some answers you're gonna give them the double bird you're gonna say off

[1:56:24 - 1:56:30] ▶

you're not getting any of our stuff we could take out every single military on the war in in the

[1:56:30 - 1:56:34] ▶

in the snap of our fingers so like you you don't have to answer to anybody yeah if they're that

[1:56:34 - 1:56:40] ▶

independent i mean that's a really good question and you're getting into a key area which is how

[1:56:40 - 1:56:46] ▶

what is the structure of this secrecy for real like who who's running it who's who's the guy in charge

[1:56:46 - 1:56:55] ▶

and does he answer to someone else does he answer to them there's all kinds of possibilities who does he

[1:56:56 - 1:57:02] ▶

answer to right exactly and you know this is i don't know i don't have that answer this is

[1:57:02 - 1:57:07] ▶

interesting you know the i had this lady on recently this woman who uh tracks money uh in

[1:57:07 - 1:57:14] ▶

the government and government spending and budgets and stuff like this and she was a head she was a

[1:57:14 - 1:57:18] ▶

worked during the bush administration and she was a part talking about katherine austin fitz yes yeah

[1:57:18 - 1:57:24] ▶

she's a great friend of mine oh really love katherine i just had her on fascinating and she was

[1:57:24 - 1:57:28] ▶

she's a brilliant lady she was explaining yeah she was explaining like how the money that went

[1:57:28 - 1:57:33] ▶

missing when donald rumsfeld did that press conference the day before 9 11 said there was

[1:57:33 - 1:57:36] ▶

four trillion dollars missing from the from from the receipts for the pentagon i think his quote was 2.3

[1:57:37 - 1:57:42] ▶

trillion yeah i got it wrong 2.3 but uh yeah no yeah that's all right and basically you know she

[1:57:42 - 1:57:47] ▶

looks at this whole thing from a balance sheet perspective saying all these trillions of dollars have

[1:57:47 - 1:57:53] ▶

gone missing and there's they're not accounted for and if this if these things went to black projects

[1:57:53 - 1:58:01] ▶

you know what we're speculating about with companies that have all this crazy tech is is not that far

[1:58:01 - 1:58:07] ▶

off yeah a couple of things so first of all everyone should know who katherine austin fits is she's

[1:58:07 - 1:58:11] ▶

she's a real a great benefactor to our civilization and she is a gem and a brilliant individual and a

[1:58:11 - 1:58:17] ▶

wonderful person she's like a absolutely decent wonderful totally um so but she's also

[1:58:17 - 1:58:24] ▶

she has opened up this whole area now the thing about the two point first it was 2.6 trillion in

[1:58:26 - 1:58:32] ▶

the summer of 01 that was 2.3 and that number actually they supposedly got it down to zero uh if you want

[1:58:32 - 1:58:40] ▶

to believe that but but but the what they really were talking about as i understand it and katherine

[1:58:40 - 1:58:46] ▶

could probably do this better far better than me it doesn't to my understanding necessarily mean

[1:58:46 - 1:58:52] ▶

that 2.3 trillion dollars went missing you're talking about unresolved uh discrepancies in the

[1:58:52 - 1:58:59] ▶

payments so you've got all these different accounting systems within the pentagon and you've got uh so

[1:58:59 - 1:59:05] ▶

there's a lot of opportunities for duplicate transactions to be recorded and so i don't really

[1:59:05 - 1:59:10] ▶

know how much money gets siphoned out there's definitely i mean i completely agree a lot of

[1:59:10 - 1:59:17] ▶

money that's gotten siphoned out and what is the exact number but it's 2.3 trillion dollars would be

[1:59:17 - 1:59:22] ▶

you know the pentagon's official budget in 2001 was something like 300 billion so you're talking

[1:59:23 - 1:59:27] ▶

a factor of eight right so how do you lose eight times your annual budget it beats me i don't know what

[1:59:27 - 1:59:34] ▶

how that works my accounting skills are not very good but but clearly we are talking about uh one

[1:59:34 - 1:59:43] ▶

thing katherine said to me i think and she's probably written it she she talked about when she first she

[1:59:43 - 1:59:49] ▶

became assistant secretary of hud housing and urban development yes correct first bush administration

[1:59:49 - 1:59:54] ▶

back in 1989 and you know her thing was always finance she's a financial whiz

[1:59:54 - 1:59:58] ▶

and she described and katherine forgive me if i get this slightly wrong she said i want to look at the

[1:59:58 - 2:00:05] ▶

uh the full budget of hud is that it and they're like you're not authorized and she

[2:00:06 - 2:00:11] ▶

uh said the hell i'm not authorized so she said they eventually wheeled in she described the library carts

[2:00:12 - 2:00:18] ▶

you know like where they have library books like one after another after another filled with stacks

[2:00:18 - 2:00:24] ▶

of papers and she i think she said something like you know god could not sort this mess out it was

[2:00:24 - 2:00:30] ▶

designed it was so it was it was uh physically unauditable and and one of her points i definitely

[2:00:30 - 2:00:39] ▶

remember this was uh it was it was like designed by default physically impossible to audit the us

[2:00:39 - 2:00:45] ▶

government and and she made a very uh many many astute observations she just said look we have a system

[2:00:45 - 2:00:53] ▶

where these people are uh they do not adhere to the rule of law they are above the rule of law yes and

[2:00:53 - 2:01:00] ▶

i i think you know that puts it as well as anyone's ever done yeah it's a it's a tear it's a terrifying

[2:01:00 - 2:01:06] ▶

idea that they're all all this money is going to some stuff that we know and and then well think of

[2:01:06 - 2:01:12] ▶

one thing here sure so all of our history right we i'm sorry to interrupt you no all of our history has been

[2:01:12 - 2:01:19] ▶

a extremely hierarchical structure so you've always it's always been this way you have a king

[2:01:19 - 2:01:25] ▶

priesthood guys in charge and they own everything they control everything but in the last couple of

[2:01:26 - 2:01:34] ▶

hundred years we like to think that we have this democracy of some sort where everyone's participating

[2:01:34 - 2:01:41] ▶

and it's egalitarian and yeah that's that's what we actually have is it's a pretend democracy and both

[2:01:41 - 2:01:48] ▶

parts of that are equally important you have to have the people need to believe that they have a

[2:01:48 - 2:01:54] ▶

kind of democratic system or else they'd be very unhappy because we want to think that we have a say

[2:01:54 - 2:02:00] ▶

in our system but the reality has always been uh there's always been elites there's always been the guys on

[2:02:00 - 2:02:07] ▶

top and throughout all of the 19th and 20th and now 21st century their goal has always been to figure

[2:02:07 - 2:02:14] ▶

out how do we let the people keep believing these little fairy tales while we keep running things the

[2:02:14 - 2:02:18] ▶

way we've always done and that's really what the system is and so now it's a system that is inherently

[2:02:18 - 2:02:24] ▶

dishonest it has to rule by lies because and and that that distorts all of our politics too because

[2:02:24 - 2:02:31] ▶

everything's now out in the open you can't really um yeah everything's got to be kind of tossed out

[2:02:31 - 2:02:36] ▶

there for the people and it's all a series of manipulations one after the net it's just we get

[2:02:36 - 2:02:41] ▶

propagandized 24 7. yeah basically what it is sure yeah and it's built on lies and that's why they can't

[2:02:41 - 2:02:47] ▶

disclose certain things because they feel like that will unravel a whole another layer of lies that will

[2:02:47 - 2:02:54] ▶

that's right that will make people accountable for things and people will go to prison i'm sure i'm

[2:02:54 - 2:02:58] ▶

sure there will be a lot of really terrible consequences for divulging some of the secret

[2:02:58 - 2:03:03] ▶

information that let's go go back to ufos i mean uh 15 years ago i co-authored a really a cool book

[2:03:03 - 2:03:09] ▶

with a man named bryce zabell and it's called ad after disclosure so that was that was for i think

[2:03:09 - 2:03:16] ▶

the only uh book length treatment on like how could disclosure happen what would how would it how would

[2:03:16 - 2:03:20] ▶

it rock our world if it were to happen and it feels like a different lifetime and 15 years ago 2010 was a

[2:03:20 - 2:03:27] ▶

totally different world uh it feels like but but um one thing that i've always felt is that a genuine

[2:03:27 - 2:03:35] ▶

reveal of this whole ufo uap subject like a true reveal is highly highly destabilizing really too

[2:03:36 - 2:03:46] ▶

yes 100 100 and but this is why there is an absolutely like we are never going to give this up

[2:03:46 - 2:03:54] ▶

like there are factions that will never give this up they will never look think of it like but what

[2:03:54 - 2:04:02] ▶

they will never give it up they'll never willingly give up this to protect us or protect to protect

[2:04:02 - 2:04:07] ▶

themselves protect themselves to protect the system that's in place right sure they made you rationalize

[2:04:07 - 2:04:11] ▶

it to say you people don't know what you're getting into we're protecting you right like i could see them

[2:04:11 - 2:04:16] ▶

justifying that yeah maybe they're right we we don't know all of it do we uh i believe in truth

[2:04:16 - 2:04:22] ▶

i like to think that most of us believe in truth and if i'm gonna have faith in anything it's gonna

[2:04:22 - 2:04:26] ▶

be a faith in in truth i i what else if you cannot believe in truth what else you got like yeah so i i'm

[2:04:26 - 2:04:35] ▶

gonna believe in that uh however so let's say now in 2010 when we wrote this the country was not nearly as

[2:04:35 - 2:04:47] ▶

polarized as it is now so in 2010 we're envisioning the president goes and tells the world well you

[2:04:47 - 2:04:54] ▶

know uh this thing happened this sighting occurred we can't really ignore it anymore yes it's real uh

[2:04:54 - 2:05:01] ▶

and some and some of them are not human and they're here that would be disclosure right that's kind of

[2:05:01 - 2:05:06] ▶

what we all imagine and so even under that scenario so i think it's way more complex now we can get to that

[2:05:06 - 2:05:12] ▶

but even in that scenario uh i was you know even in 2010 i was all over 9 11. i got into a lot of

[2:05:12 - 2:05:22] ▶

trouble among some ufo researchers because i was uh an early 9 11 conspiracy guy were you absolutely i

[2:05:22 - 2:05:30] ▶

still am really i'm not gonna be insulted by that we'll come back to that then yeah yeah i'm you know

[2:05:30 - 2:05:37] ▶

you know there are people far more conversant with that than me but yes i'm my dad worked at the world

[2:05:37 - 2:05:44] ▶

trade center back in september 01 he had the day off my dad had the day off my dad was a retired new

[2:05:44 - 2:05:49] ▶

york city cop at the time and uh he had a really cool job as a fire safety director as they were called

[2:05:49 - 2:05:57] ▶

at the twin towers yeah he shared his job with a really nice man who i knew who was killed that day

[2:05:57 - 2:06:02] ▶

name was billy and um yeah really affected my dad it was a real real tough thing so 9 11 was a very

[2:06:02 - 2:06:09] ▶

personal thing on that level i mean for anyone who went through that of course i'm not saying like

[2:06:09 - 2:06:15] ▶

more for me than anyone else but my dad was was there that's crazy so your dad your dad knew a lot of

[2:06:15 - 2:06:20] ▶

people that died and i'm sure you did too yeah a lot of firefighters of course and a lot of good people

[2:06:20 - 2:06:25] ▶

one of my theories on 9 11 is that um that people that were closest to it and affected by it the most

[2:06:25 - 2:06:30] ▶

emotionally and personally are the ones that have and i could be wrong here though i think you proved

[2:06:30 - 2:06:35] ▶

this wrong but those are the ones that have the least capacity to entertain any no you're right

[2:06:35 - 2:06:43] ▶

any of the alternate ideas of what happened right that that don't go with the narrative right they

[2:06:43 - 2:06:47] ▶

they seem to be the ones that go with the narrative the one the people who are more disconnected from it

[2:06:47 - 2:06:50] ▶

or even born after you're totally right yeah yeah i almost wrote a book i keep wondering about this

[2:06:50 - 2:06:56] ▶

uh on false flags a history of false flag operations in our world i i got i got really into it and uh

[2:06:56 - 2:07:02] ▶

in fact i did a i wrote a little tv series for gaia television um number of years ago on the history

[2:07:02 - 2:07:09] ▶

of false flags you can go find it go to guy and go look for it um that was much less than i had actually

[2:07:09 - 2:07:17] ▶

researched i did a lot more research on false flags than i did for that series but

[2:07:17 - 2:07:21] ▶

uh one thing that a false flag does to people it's a it's a real psychological head game that you play

[2:07:21 - 2:07:32] ▶

on people because you are creating this massive trauma for your society it's an emotional trauma

[2:07:32 - 2:07:41] ▶

and what you're doing is this horrible horrible thing happens and people are naturally going to be

[2:07:42 - 2:07:48] ▶

deeply upset by it and then what you do this is the genius of it you find the solution immediately

[2:07:48 - 2:07:54] ▶

whether it's hitler invading poland and saying we were attacked by the poles which is what he did

[2:07:55 - 2:08:01] ▶

or any other there's a lot of false flags america is the king of false flags especially after world war

[2:08:02 - 2:08:08] ▶

ii and uh all the covert ops that we have done but anyway you create a catastrophe a trauma

[2:08:08 - 2:08:17] ▶

that people freak out over and you identify it you don't you connect the emotion to the intellect

[2:08:17 - 2:08:24] ▶

so you have the emotional connection to some kind of here's the explanation and once once you get that

[2:08:24 - 2:08:30] ▶

um people like my own dad my father uh you know when i started really looking at 9 11

[2:08:31 - 2:08:39] ▶

and i used to talk to my dad on the phone about this and um i have to be careful because i could

[2:08:39 - 2:08:45] ▶

get emotional uh so just forgive me here sure sure but um my dad learns that like richie

[2:08:45 - 2:08:53] ▶

are you looking into i just saw this pbs thing and it just showed he talked about the pancake theory

[2:08:54 - 2:08:59] ▶

that was put out the total theory but it was that was put out within a week of the event this guy

[2:08:59 - 2:09:06] ▶

comes out and says this is how it happened like no you have no freaking idea what was it what was

[2:09:06 - 2:09:11] ▶

that theory roughly the the planes crashing caused a pancaking effect oh yeah of the one floor on the

[2:09:11 - 2:09:18] ▶

other floor and all the way down it did not happen that way at all but it was so anyway that goes on to

[2:09:18 - 2:09:25] ▶

pbs which is total cia op anyway and my dad bought into it of course he did you know i don't blame him

[2:09:25 - 2:09:33] ▶

uh and then he he was like he really had a struggle with the fact that his son was going

[2:09:33 - 2:09:41] ▶

all into this alternative theory about 9 11 and i talk with him every week on the phone and um

[2:09:41 - 2:09:46] ▶

and he came around you know my my dad um all right we'll have to talk about something else so let's move

[2:09:47 - 2:09:53] ▶

move on we'll come back to it when i can collect myself sure um we were talking about uh disclosure and

[2:09:53 - 2:09:58] ▶

um yeah what it would look like and what the incentives would be for disclosure and how um

[2:09:58 - 2:10:03] ▶

you did mention that you think disclosure nowadays would be far more complex than it would yes i do

[2:10:04 - 2:10:11] ▶

yeah i do because um well because trump if i can am i allowed to say that on youtube yeah um you know

[2:10:11 - 2:10:19] ▶

he hits the scene in 2015 basically actually it will do better on youtube if you say trump yeah well

[2:10:19 - 2:10:25] ▶

and you know i mean how do i how do you talk about this without uh 50 of the population

[2:10:27 - 2:10:35] ▶

shitting their pants and yeah so whatever i end up saying someone's going to be upset but yeah but

[2:10:35 - 2:10:41] ▶

basically you have a guy who comes in that is the ultra most polarizing political figure that we've had

[2:10:41 - 2:10:47] ▶

since abraham lincoln lincoln lincoln was a highly polarizing president if you really go back but

[2:10:47 - 2:10:53] ▶

here comes trump and and so now we're at a point where whether it's trump or anyone else whether if

[2:10:53 - 2:11:00] ▶

it was biden it wouldn't be no different because a president who comes up there says anything on this

[2:11:00 - 2:11:05] ▶

and you've got half the country half the world maybe saying i don't believe you yeah they're not

[2:11:06 - 2:11:11] ▶

going to believe it so that's that's a complication where we're in a kind of a post-truth world essentially

[2:11:11 - 2:11:19] ▶

where how do you how do we actually reliably fact check you have so-called fact checkers out there now

[2:11:19 - 2:11:28] ▶

and we all know it's nonsense so difficult and they're so politicized and they're so ultra

[2:11:28 - 2:11:33] ▶

establishment oriented it's obvious people just lean into their audience yeah so i think that really

[2:11:33 - 2:11:38] ▶

complicates uh disclosure as well um i mean look you know we were talking earlier in this conversation

[2:11:38 - 2:11:46] ▶

about the congressional thing and yeah skeptics will just how they'll just jump on anything

[2:11:46 - 2:11:51] ▶

and they'll cause a lot of noise and it works yeah well i i've thought about it and i think i'm

[2:11:51 - 2:11:57] ▶

probably in that camp where if the top top top level of government came out and said aliens are real

[2:11:57 - 2:12:03] ▶

i would probably think the opposite or something there's some sort of weird mix right i mean there's

[2:12:03 - 2:12:08] ▶

definitely a large amount of people out there who um for you can't really blame them that they know

[2:12:08 - 2:12:13] ▶

you cannot and whatever the government tells them they they think the opposite is true you're probably

[2:12:13 - 2:12:17] ▶

going to be right to a certain extent think of i think of the ufo reality as a mountain right

[2:12:17 - 2:12:21] ▶

it's a massive mount everest and so you're going to disclose that you're going to disclose that whole

[2:12:21 - 2:12:25] ▶

thing right right you think so yeah so what you'll do is they'll take like a little freaking sliver

[2:12:25 - 2:12:30] ▶

and say here it is and it would be a true sliver right but it's certainly an incomplete and i'm sure

[2:12:31 - 2:12:37] ▶

it's a sliver that will provide the cover your ass rule very effectively to make you look as good as

[2:12:37 - 2:12:43] ▶

possible yeah so it's going to be deceptive yes any kind of real uh official attempted disclosure

[2:12:43 - 2:12:51] ▶

it's pro is almost certainly going to follow that model i still maintain and i i've caught a lot of

[2:12:52 - 2:12:58] ▶

hell for this and you know what can i say but i do think that a lot of the people who are pushing

[2:12:58 - 2:13:03] ▶

this now like people like hal put off i've known hal put off for over 25 years i admire and respect him

[2:13:03 - 2:13:08] ▶

and i think he's he's i think he's on the right side of this that's my belief people can say you're

[2:13:09 - 2:13:17] ▶

you know you're naive whatever uh lou elizondo i'll say the same thing uh christopher mellon these are

[2:13:17 - 2:13:23] ▶

establishment people in a way that i've never been i'm not an establishment guy you're a journalist

[2:13:23 - 2:13:29] ▶

i'm a historian and i guess i do journalism i don't know what i am i'm a researcher right but i'm not

[2:13:29 - 2:13:36] ▶

i've never been in that world so i don't have i don't think like they do like i don't think like a

[2:13:36 - 2:13:44] ▶

guy like elizondo people complain that he's harps on the national security thing but he's

[2:13:44 - 2:13:48] ▶

army counterintelligence what do you expect this is what you pay him to do yeah like that's his job

[2:13:49 - 2:13:53] ▶

yeah he his salary is to look for threats how do you expect someone who's to do that not not to do

[2:13:53 - 2:13:59] ▶

that so but i'm not i don't look at it that way so i don't have a lot of their um you know predilections

[2:13:59 - 2:14:07] ▶

to that but i do think like there are people who have a like they're doing this in good faith

[2:14:07 - 2:14:15] ▶

they're they're not they're not like saying haha you know we're gonna screw them over i mean

[2:14:15 - 2:14:21] ▶

everyone's got their angle everyone's always looking out for their self-interest that's human

[2:14:21 - 2:14:25] ▶

nature you can never not expect that but um but there are definitely the secrets the real hardcore

[2:14:25 - 2:14:32] ▶

secrecy group that i think they are not and that they're those guys do operate very effectively

[2:14:32 - 2:14:38] ▶

do you have um sort of like a a checklist or do you have any sort of way to qualify people who come

[2:14:38 - 2:14:49] ▶

out in the public and start talking about this stuff to whether or not or do you even think about

[2:14:49 - 2:14:54] ▶

it whether or not people are credible credible are they are they strategically putting out disinformation

[2:14:54 - 2:15:02] ▶

or some some sort of a mixed bag that's a very fair question and i don't i don't know if i can

[2:15:02 - 2:15:10] ▶

like i can't give you a mathematical equation to say this is he fulfills all of these criteria there

[2:15:10 - 2:15:15] ▶

are certain things because there's people there's people that that could be a they could be just uh

[2:15:15 - 2:15:19] ▶

well i think it's i think it's complicated i think that there's people that are out there to make

[2:15:20 - 2:15:25] ▶

money and to like sell books and to do this kinds of things but they can also be useful idiots to an

[2:15:25 - 2:15:29] ▶

extent yeah yeah and have more or less people in the government trying to encourage them look the

[2:15:29 - 2:15:38] ▶

best thing that you can i everything you said is totally on point i would just say there are certain

[2:15:38 - 2:15:43] ▶

criteria that that any responsible researcher should adhere to so when first of all you you want to

[2:15:44 - 2:15:52] ▶

you know we went through a period of a decade or more ago when you'd have all of these totally anonymous

[2:15:52 - 2:15:57] ▶

so-called whistleblowers that were out there and or or people who said i worked for this department or

[2:15:58 - 2:16:04] ▶

that department but they provide no no background where you can verify anything like the first thing

[2:16:04 - 2:16:09] ▶

you need to know is did this person actually work they said they worked like did they did they do that

[2:16:09 - 2:16:15] ▶

uh secondly you know that you have to not jump to conclusions probably the first best thing you could do

[2:16:16 - 2:16:25] ▶

and and wait you have to wait someone comes out with a claim i i would i would i don't like knee-jerk reactions

[2:16:25 - 2:16:34] ▶

to um whether pro or con that go too far like you want to take your time with these things

[2:16:35 - 2:16:41] ▶

this is why like i'm not always really comfortable talking about the every like latest little story

[2:16:42 - 2:16:48] ▶

that happens right even though i i personally i feel pressured now because like i've been doing

[2:16:48 - 2:16:53] ▶

this so long people want to know what do you think it's really i've noticed that with this topic it is

[2:16:53 - 2:16:57] ▶

hard to avoid talking about specific people in this community yeah and you get like and it's hard not

[2:16:57 - 2:17:02] ▶

to go chasing after the latest headline yeah yeah which is a problem because ideally what you want to do

[2:17:02 - 2:17:08] ▶

is you want to stop and wait and go slow yeah so that other researchers who know more about propulsion

[2:17:08 - 2:17:16] ▶

than you do who know more about the history of aviation than you do who know more about the

[2:17:16 - 2:17:19] ▶

history of this department than you do like you want all these people have a chance to chime in

[2:17:19 - 2:17:24] ▶

and provide their own perspective and that just takes time and it's nuanced um but no i don't know if

[2:17:24 - 2:17:31] ▶

i have a sure shot uh answer to these things i remember when bob lazar you know was he's still i guess

[2:17:31 - 2:17:39] ▶

a little controversial it was much more controversial in the past and uh part of it is like you

[2:17:39 - 2:17:45] ▶

you go by for me because i wrote about him over 15 years ago in one of my books and it was really

[2:17:46 - 2:17:51] ▶

difficult like i didn't know what do i think about bob lazar i didn't know back in 2007 2008 when i'm

[2:17:52 - 2:17:58] ▶

finishing one of my books and um i ended up thinking i believe this man and i believed him because

[2:17:58 - 2:18:05] ▶

of the consistency of what he said over a number of years the fact that i never felt he

[2:18:05 - 2:18:11] ▶

he tried to go for reach or to try to uh go into an area that was different he and when he didn't

[2:18:11 - 2:18:18] ▶

know something he would say so like and then and then of course i did get to meet a number of people

[2:18:18 - 2:18:24] ▶

who knew lazar you know somewhat well not perfectly but and i got to know george knapp uh also very well

[2:18:24 - 2:18:31] ▶

during those years i have a tremendous regard for george so um i ended up you know this is how i made my

[2:18:31 - 2:18:39] ▶

decision on bob lazar fortunately for me i what was your decision that he's legit he's telling he

[2:18:39 - 2:18:44] ▶

was telling the truth yeah it seems to me that that he would be a great candidate for the cia to choose

[2:18:44 - 2:18:50] ▶

to come there because he's so easily discreditable because of his background and some of the stuff

[2:18:50 - 2:18:54] ▶

that he was yeah yeah that's right um like the the the brothel and the other stuff yeah he did uh

[2:18:54 - 2:19:01] ▶

security work for i think uh nevada brothel i think was at security he put in some cameras for them or

[2:19:01 - 2:19:06] ▶

right whatever he did and there was a weird thing about his wife that happened to the first wife

[2:19:06 - 2:19:11] ▶

i think who like committed suicide marital issues and she went and got married like while he was

[2:19:11 - 2:19:16] ▶

still married to her there was a bunch of really which was it's such a clusterfuck of logic when

[2:19:16 - 2:19:22] ▶

you're thinking about this stuff because you got to think like all of these things which are utterly

[2:19:22 - 2:19:26] ▶

irrelevant right exactly story exactly so it's like on one hand why would they choose this guy to do

[2:19:26 - 2:19:33] ▶

this thing but then if you're looking at it from the reverse side of the lens if you're some

[2:19:33 - 2:19:38] ▶

intelligence operation trying to do something and protect yourself in case the cat gets out of the

[2:19:38 - 2:19:43] ▶

bag you want people to question him and discredit him to think he's a liar possibly but but actually

[2:19:43 - 2:19:49] ▶

if you hear his story like the way he tells it he made the initiative to do all of this so he he was

[2:19:49 - 2:19:55] ▶

very unhappy with his employment situation at the time he had met edward teller right the vendor of the

[2:19:55 - 2:20:03] ▶

fuse for the h-bomb and i think the original dr strangelove i i suspect uh in los alamos in the

[2:20:03 - 2:20:11] ▶

early 1980s i think 1982 and had a very good back and forth conversation because lazar lazar is a crazy

[2:20:11 - 2:20:19] ▶

like he's a brilliant guy he developed his jet car right and it made the cover of the los alamos

[2:20:19 - 2:20:25] ▶

local paper and he's meeting with teller and apparently teller says call me sometime young man

[2:20:25 - 2:20:32] ▶

and i'll see you know they had this kind of conversation and a couple of years go by and

[2:20:32 - 2:20:36] ▶

lazar's like i'm gonna and he he was able to get a the job with egng which got him out to s4 and then

[2:20:36 - 2:20:44] ▶

the only reason that he went public is he uh bob lazar forgive me if i'm getting any of this wrong

[2:20:44 - 2:20:53] ▶

but he started talking about it to john lear and his his friend gene huff who was a real estate friend

[2:20:54 - 2:20:59] ▶

of his at the time and they start going out to watch the uh displays of the craft and i think

[2:20:59 - 2:21:06] ▶

the second time out they got caught and he got into some serious trouble and you know had that not

[2:21:06 - 2:21:12] ▶

happened i don't know i think he's talked about this it's like you know maybe i um i should have

[2:21:12 - 2:21:18] ▶

stayed in in the stayed in the in the biz and i could have but he would have been a lifer and we've

[2:21:18 - 2:21:23] ▶

never heard about him right so it's possible that he was selected for certain possibility yeah you

[2:21:23 - 2:21:32] ▶

know maybe they they might have psychologically profiled him and think this is a guy that

[2:21:32 - 2:21:35] ▶

he doesn't seem to give a he says what he says did you watch the interview with him or the

[2:21:37 - 2:21:42] ▶

it was i think it was like a more of a debate or like a conversation with him and stan friedman

[2:21:42 - 2:21:48] ▶

uh no i knew stan friedman very well and i know exactly what's that you know uh yeah stan never

[2:21:48 - 2:22:01] ▶

ever ever ever believed lazar's story i called him a fraud you know when i first uh the first time i

[2:22:01 - 2:22:08] ▶

met stan was in 2001 a long time ago i was brand new i was i was i still had nice black hair hope in my

[2:22:08 - 2:22:16] ▶

eyes you could look carefully you could see it i had all of i had big round glasses still and uh

[2:22:16 - 2:22:22] ▶

i wasn't yet 40 and anyway so i meet with stan and he wanted the first thing you want to know about me

[2:22:23 - 2:22:28] ▶

was what was my position on that's the litmus test yeah and i was like at that time i hadn't even

[2:22:28 - 2:22:34] ▶

i wasn't even really conversant with lazar's story i had just worked my ass off to get the story of ufos

[2:22:34 - 2:22:42] ▶

up to 1973 that was the end of my first volume and uh lazar you know he was after that and i was

[2:22:42 - 2:22:48] ▶

aware that i had to study him but i hadn't yet really gotten on top but stan wanted to know like

[2:22:48 - 2:22:54] ▶

if i had the proper perspective on lazar and i actually i've always i mean i really appreciate

[2:22:54 - 2:23:02] ▶

and respect stan always will but i did not appreciate that i felt that he was trying to pressure me

[2:23:02 - 2:23:06] ▶

in a way that i just don't like don't don't tell me what i'm supposed to think on this i'll come to

[2:23:06 - 2:23:11] ▶

my own damn decision and even at that time i was not inclined to dismiss lazar's story but i i kept it

[2:23:11 - 2:23:20] ▶

off to the side until i felt that i had spent enough time to research it yeah and um yeah at that time

[2:23:21 - 2:23:28] ▶

this is still in the early 2000s in the late 90s and but a lot of lazar's interviews were available

[2:23:28 - 2:23:36] ▶

transcripts that he had done in like 1990 91 92. um he stopped i read them all he doesn't do anymore

[2:23:36 - 2:23:42] ▶

he doesn't do any interviews no but in the early 90s he did quite a bit why do you think do you have

[2:23:42 - 2:23:46] ▶

any idea why stopped or do you have any uh theories it's hard for me to speak for him uh the impression

[2:23:46 - 2:23:51] ▶

that one gets is that he just got sick and tired of the field and that there was you know it's like time

[2:23:51 - 2:23:55] ▶

to move on it's like i put my information out there this is a crazy community which it is and was

[2:23:55 - 2:24:00] ▶

uh you know we we don't really do a good job at managing ourselves it's impossible yeah and there's

[2:24:02 - 2:24:11] ▶

also there's all these other whistleblowers that come out and one of the most recent ones that really

[2:24:11 - 2:24:15] ▶

screwed my mind up was um the guy who went on jesse michael's podcast who was talking about

[2:24:17 - 2:24:22] ▶

kidnapping kids from indonesia after an earthquake and then michael herrera is that the one so herrera

[2:24:22 - 2:24:31] ▶

this guy corroborated herrera you're talking about jake barber yes yeah his story i did not hear this

[2:24:31 - 2:24:37] ▶

and i jesse michael's great podcast it's the herrera it's basically the herrera story yeah right he i mean

[2:24:37 - 2:24:43] ▶

he had a different he was had a different angle of it he was a part of some different organization but um

[2:24:43 - 2:24:47] ▶

um basically he says that he went to one of greer's public yeah whistleblower conferences and he

[2:24:47 - 2:24:54] ▶

heard herrera talk so jake barber says that he went there as like a guy to uh catch whistleblowers to

[2:24:54 - 2:25:02] ▶

prosecute them right and then he heard herrera talk and he's like oh my god he said yeah you basically

[2:25:02 - 2:25:09] ▶

have it but you've got the wrong interpretation of it i think like it's not a human trafficking kind of

[2:25:09 - 2:25:13] ▶

thing sure i think he got a kind of he so yeah so jesse brought up brought that up about the human

[2:25:13 - 2:25:18] ▶

trafficking this guy mike jake barber got really uh upset when he called it human trafficking yeah no

[2:25:18 - 2:25:23] ▶

it wasn't human trafficking we were capturing these people we weren't capturing them but we were bringing

[2:25:23 - 2:25:27] ▶

them back here and holding them to use them as psychic manipulators or psychic uh pilots for these ufos

[2:25:27 - 2:25:32] ▶

and uh he's like they they were they were in distress there was an earthquake and we were looking

[2:25:33 - 2:25:37] ▶

for children who were left-handed and homosexual because they have the highest psychic psychic

[2:25:37 - 2:25:44] ▶

abilities and it's like what the fuck are you talking about well hey leonardo da vinci was one

[2:25:44 - 2:25:49] ▶

of those wasn't he yes he was and um and you know you said they were they were keeping them and like

[2:25:49 - 2:25:56] ▶

feeding them certain things like not giving them like i don't know what they were doing restricting

[2:25:56 - 2:26:00] ▶

their diets somehow i don't know if they're keeping them against their wills but this guy is talking

[2:26:00 - 2:26:05] ▶

about some way way out there sci-fi stranger things type stuff and then it's like how far

[2:26:05 - 2:26:11] ▶

how far do we allow these people to take us i personally have not formed a definite opinion

[2:26:11 - 2:26:15] ▶

on this one i just haven't uh i mean i'm aware of the story and we mentioned stan friedman stan

[2:26:15 - 2:26:22] ▶

had a great expression he called something he had a gray box he said if i don't know if it's true or false

[2:26:22 - 2:26:27] ▶

i put it in my gray box yeah and there's a lot of things to go in a gray box sure and that

[2:26:27 - 2:26:31] ▶

that's one of those things where i mean i would say let's keep it open and let's find out if there's

[2:26:31 - 2:26:39] ▶

any other research that can verify it to some extent so we have you have herrera then you have

[2:26:39 - 2:26:43] ▶

jake barbers that's two points that's not equal to proof but it makes it a little more interesting and

[2:26:43 - 2:26:49] ▶

maybe we can we can move on from there but that's the problem with a lot of the elements in this field

[2:26:49 - 2:26:56] ▶

you're dealing with i mean by its very nature the ufo let me just keep saying ufo because i'm so used

[2:26:56 - 2:27:02] ▶

to it we say uap whatever yeah ufos represent i mean we we talk about it in our society often enough

[2:27:02 - 2:27:15] ▶

but i am absolutely convinced we don't fully appreciate the depth of what it really means

[2:27:15 - 2:27:21] ▶

i mean look imagine being across the table not from me but from one of them and imagine they have

[2:27:21 - 2:27:30] ▶

an iq of 500 and they're looking right at you and they've got a telepathic ability maybe they're

[2:27:30 - 2:27:36] ▶

connected to a hive mind so they know everything that you don't know and they can peer into your mind

[2:27:36 - 2:27:41] ▶

into all the little avenues and recesses and like and they don't laugh at your jokes so we're gonna run

[2:27:41 - 2:27:46] ▶

for the hills and they're and and even if they look like us like that's intimidating that there's

[2:27:46 - 2:27:52] ▶

no way that's not going to be intimidating to run into beings like that that operate on a completely

[2:27:52 - 2:27:57] ▶

different level that we will not we we like to think that well yeah we'll be like that one day

[2:27:57 - 2:28:04] ▶

i don't think so no we're not going to be like that i'm not and you're not maybe a thousand years from

[2:28:05 - 2:28:10] ▶

now who knows but is there any story is there any crazy story that's out there

[2:28:10 - 2:28:15] ▶

right the ufo whether it be abduction or a sighting or anything that's like there's no solid evidence

[2:28:15 - 2:28:21] ▶

one way or the other that you know for a fact is true oh wow prob probably uh i don't i don't know

[2:28:21 - 2:28:30] ▶

that's a great question i wish uh i could have thought about this before it's kind of tough kind

[2:28:30 - 2:28:36] ▶

of tough on the spot a story that has no whether it be like a like a i mean other than the fact that

[2:28:36 - 2:28:43] ▶

you know obviously we have like things like the tic tac where right it's like a we know that's

[2:28:43 - 2:28:47] ▶

we've had people testify and there's there's the the footage like the go fast and the fleer stuff but

[2:28:47 - 2:28:52] ▶

it's kind of like it's grainy footage whatever and it's kind of like take it for what it is it could be

[2:28:52 - 2:28:56] ▶

darpa it could be non-human intelligence but like say there's one of these whistleblowers that come out

[2:28:56 - 2:29:01] ▶

like michael herrera or jake barber or or bob lazar right one of these sorts of stories that you that you

[2:29:01 - 2:29:07] ▶

know for a fact well one i mean this isn't a ufo incident but this was the davis wilson notes that

[2:29:07 - 2:29:13] ▶

i talked about a little earlier when we talked about eric davis i knew for a fact when those things

[2:29:13 - 2:29:17] ▶

came out in 2019 that that document i knew it was real and there were a lot of people at the time

[2:29:17 - 2:29:23] ▶

who were saying it's fake one person said it was a movie script one person a lot of people were just

[2:29:23 - 2:29:28] ▶

saying it's complete disinformation yeah and i for a while there i i was actually really really pissed

[2:29:28 - 2:29:34] ▶

off at the rest of the research community because i was for a little while the only the only person

[2:29:34 - 2:29:40] ▶

publicly to take a stand on it wow yeah and everyone's like throwing all kinds of shit at me and

[2:29:40 - 2:29:44] ▶

that's fine but i'm like and there are a couple of people who privately had said to me

[2:29:45 - 2:29:50] ▶

i know it's real too i was shown this in whatever year uh but i can't i can't go out i can't i can't say

[2:29:52 - 2:30:00] ▶

publicly so i understood that's fine um but i during that whole period uh there was some really

[2:30:00 - 2:30:08] ▶

uh some really snarky nasty people that popped up out of nowhere and then have since disappeared

[2:30:08 - 2:30:15] ▶

it's like who are you who are these people interesting yeah but anyway i always knew i

[2:30:15 - 2:30:24] ▶

always knew that would be vindicated i just didn't know when but now then you get you know

[2:30:24 - 2:30:29] ▶

jacques valet talked about it in in his forbidden science one of his volumes in his diaries um oh

[2:30:29 - 2:30:35] ▶

really yes yes he mentioned knowledge of it at the time when at when um the ass when um

[2:30:35 - 2:30:42] ▶

the astronaut died when uh no prior before before that yeah i think in his volume that covers uh 2000 to

[2:30:43 - 2:30:51] ▶

2009 when davis actually interviewed wilson during that period valet knew about this

[2:30:51 - 2:30:58] ▶

and it's in there uh also eric davis himself short of saying i wrote them several times interviews that

[2:30:59 - 2:31:09] ▶

he did in 2019 2020 and then just just at the briefing elizondo this is one good thing elizondo did he

[2:31:09 - 2:31:18] ▶

mentioned that he introduced davis by way of those notes and he he uh so he obviously knows it's real like

[2:31:18 - 2:31:26] ▶

that whole crowd they all know it's all real uh but there's been enough confirmation and davis himself

[2:31:26 - 2:31:32] ▶

if you really listen to him even in the briefing it's quite obvious he makes it clear without saying

[2:31:32 - 2:31:37] ▶

he's got to be careful these people those notes themselves are not classified but they talk about

[2:31:37 - 2:31:43] ▶

something that is highly classified you know they were private notes so it's not like an official

[2:31:43 - 2:31:49] ▶

government document but it is discussing something that is extremely sensitive let's take this opportunity i got

[2:31:49 - 2:31:54] ▶

to get a quick bath and break we'll jump right back in we're back folks we're back um we were

[2:31:54 - 2:32:01] ▶

talking about what were we talking about steve do you remember what we're talking about we want to

[2:32:01 - 2:32:06] ▶

talk more about the military aspect of this uso stuff yeah yeah yeah um what before we do that one of my

[2:32:06 - 2:32:13] ▶

questions that i've been wanting to ask you is um do you i'm sure you do know about um this base i talked

[2:32:13 - 2:32:18] ▶

about it with jesse when he was on here that there was a decommissioned i think it was a navy base in the

[2:32:18 - 2:32:26] ▶

bahamas that was specifically in charge of tracking some of this stuff this underwater ufo stuff do you

[2:32:26 - 2:32:34] ▶

remember what i'm talking about specifically well there was a uh there's a system that was known as

[2:32:34 - 2:32:41] ▶

sosus when it was developed the sound undersea uh sonar uh system and it was originally set up in that

[2:32:41 - 2:32:52] ▶

area like near the bahamas so i don't know if that's what he's referring to no this was a base

[2:32:52 - 2:32:56] ▶

um steve if you pull up the podcast i did with jesse it's in the timestamps i think it's its own

[2:32:58 - 2:33:03] ▶

its own dedicated time i should i should know it i was talking about it i could i think nasa was

[2:33:03 - 2:33:08] ▶

involved with it i could put into my second or third volume atlantic under is that what you were

[2:33:08 - 2:33:13] ▶

talking about the atlantic oh tech yeah oh tech oh tech that's what it was okay

[2:33:13 - 2:33:17] ▶

so um apparently what what i for the way i understand it is they had some sort of

[2:33:20 - 2:33:25] ▶

maybe it was like a whoa holy macaroni bless you uh underground or not underground underwater sort of

[2:33:26 - 2:33:35] ▶

base to track and detect things something like this yeah so i am aware of that and i do have a

[2:33:35 - 2:33:42] ▶

little i've learned a few things jesse may know more than i do i don't know i have to have to hear

[2:33:42 - 2:33:47] ▶

what he has to say yeah one of the things that i try to do with this study is two things what so one

[2:33:47 - 2:33:53] ▶

is track the cases and then the other is to try to understand the technological military political

[2:33:53 - 2:34:02] ▶

and other related developments that went on at the same time so when i try to structure this book

[2:34:03 - 2:34:08] ▶

these books um i break them into chapters and at the beginning of each chapter i try to highlight like

[2:34:08 - 2:34:15] ▶

what's developing here what's what's our technology what's our politics what's what's relevant and so

[2:34:15 - 2:34:20] ▶

the development of a lot of the navy systems goes has gone into that section of of each book uh the

[2:34:20 - 2:34:26] ▶

chapters and so i remember i wrote about sosus and i have i have information on autek it's very it's

[2:34:26 - 2:34:31] ▶

related it's all similar it's basically their system for probing into the world under the water so off

[2:34:31 - 2:34:40] ▶

the top of my head i don't really know what else to say about it but okay it's as that description there

[2:34:40 - 2:34:45] ▶

says uh secretive testing of underwater vehicles yeah they they called it the underwater area 51.

[2:34:45 - 2:34:53] ▶

yeah one interesting thing about it is its location so that's a extremely active area one

[2:34:53 - 2:35:01] ▶

thing i did when i collected all of these cases on my little google earth i put a little yellow pin

[2:35:01 - 2:35:06] ▶

for every as accurately as i could for every single uso case i could find so that's why i can tell you

[2:35:06 - 2:35:12] ▶

puerto rico is a major hot spot that's why i can tell you florida is a major hot spot area this whole

[2:35:12 - 2:35:17] ▶

region here and so the fact that they've got something down there in the bahamas i just think it's kind of

[2:35:17 - 2:35:22] ▶

interesting because that's a very very active area for usos in general one of the fascinating things

[2:35:22 - 2:35:27] ▶

he also told me was there is this uh there's this secretive nro character who was tied into nasa who

[2:35:27 - 2:35:36] ▶

was a part of this base somehow well there's an underwater version of the nro um and it's n uro

[2:35:36 - 2:35:46] ▶

uh national underwater um forget the acronym there's a a brilliant uh uf uh ufo podcaster on youtube uh

[2:35:46 - 2:35:58] ▶

uap gerb oh i've heard about him yeah he's really smart guy i i i've never talked with him but if he's

[2:35:58 - 2:36:04] ▶

listening i i'm a big admirer of his yeah jesse's had jesse's had him on yes highly highly intelligent

[2:36:04 - 2:36:09] ▶

the national underwater reconnaissance yeah that's it yeah responsible for underwater reconnaissance and

[2:36:09 - 2:36:15] ▶

operates primarily in the waters of the soviet union started in 1969 and it's there's a history

[2:36:15 - 2:36:20] ▶

there one one thing that they were they have they collected um a tremendous amount of intelligence

[2:36:20 - 2:36:28] ▶

against the soviet union out of the sea of what coasts off the coast of kamchatka there and uh they

[2:36:29 - 2:36:35] ▶

actually were able to place a device on a undersea cable there like a listening device to kind of tap

[2:36:35 - 2:36:43] ▶

into soviet uh communications and this is back in like 1970 71 when they did that using uh the halibut

[2:36:43 - 2:36:51] ▶

i think that was the summer the submersible they used oh wow i think that was the one

[2:36:51 - 2:36:56] ▶

or maybe the sea i think the halibut i can't remember but they um were able to get very valuable

[2:36:57 - 2:37:03] ▶

intelligence for a good decade or more based on what they were doing there they're like um yeah

[2:37:03 - 2:37:10] ▶

that's just that's a whole story that we know a little bit about and we need to know much much more

[2:37:10 - 2:37:18] ▶

because there's no question uh that they have got information that we just don't know and may never

[2:37:18 - 2:37:25] ▶

know they're they are the underwater nro they are incredibly secretive yeah i heard that there's like

[2:37:25 - 2:37:31] ▶

like probably over 20 intelligence or like three letter agencies that we don't even know exist

[2:37:31 - 2:37:38] ▶

that are within the government or the deep state i'm sure that we'll probably we'll probably never

[2:37:39 - 2:37:44] ▶

know about like i never i never would imagine i never knew that the nro had anything to do with ufos

[2:37:44 - 2:37:48] ▶

well they're a good candidate for it actually but we didn't know the nro existed until the 1990s

[2:37:49 - 2:37:54] ▶

they existed in total secrecy for over 30 years yeah uh the nsa you know jokingly referred to as no

[2:37:54 - 2:38:01] ▶

such agency was completely secret for more than its first decade until the 70s it came out right well

[2:38:01 - 2:38:09] ▶

there was a book in 1964 called the invisible government uh that mentioned it it was one book

[2:38:09 - 2:38:16] ▶

that and but no i don't really think it was truly appreciated what the nsa was and then it came out more in

[2:38:16 - 2:38:23] ▶

the 70s and but it's still like to this day it's quite secretive you know but that was a secret

[2:38:23 - 2:38:30] ▶

agency its existence was classified for many years and i remember i i was friends with a congressional

[2:38:30 - 2:38:36] ▶

aide 15 plus years ago i don't think he's alive anymore but he he told me like he's he was interested

[2:38:37 - 2:38:42] ▶

in this whole subject and said he was convinced that there was a very substantial uh agency involved

[2:38:42 - 2:38:50] ▶

in all this that was still completely off off the boards no one knew about it really so i believe

[2:38:50 - 2:38:57] ▶

that there are i mean look you know i i talked about we're having a pretend democracy a little while

[2:38:57 - 2:39:04] ▶

ago i think that's right so you've what we really have what the united states is of course is a a

[2:39:04 - 2:39:09] ▶

massive empire that's trying to dominate has always tried to dominate the world especially since world

[2:39:09 - 2:39:14] ▶

war ii and as a result puts institutions and agencies in place that it doesn't think the

[2:39:14 - 2:39:23] ▶

public really needs to know about even though we're supposedly supposed to have this open transparent

[2:39:23 - 2:39:27] ▶

society right so i think there's all kinds of secrecy that's going on i i would not be shocked

[2:39:27 - 2:39:31] ▶

at all that there were a bunch of three-letter uh type agencies that we don't know about it wouldn't

[2:39:31 - 2:39:38] ▶

surprise me yeah yeah it's crazy stuff man it really is and another thing that um catherine

[2:39:38 - 2:39:46] ▶

fits was telling me about is all the money that's going to these underground bunkers and underground

[2:39:46 - 2:39:51] ▶

uh like basically like underground cities that are connected by highways all around the country and

[2:39:51 - 2:39:58] ▶

she's saying that it's very possible that like trillions of dollars are going to the going to these

[2:39:58 - 2:40:01] ▶

things yeah i've i've spoken with her about this in fact uh off the record and it's a real possibility

[2:40:01 - 2:40:10] ▶

you know i i um used to know there was a researcher uh by the name of richard souder dr richard souder

[2:40:10 - 2:40:16] ▶

and uh is he the guy that was killed no not too much i think he's still alive okay yeah you might be thinking of um

[2:40:16 - 2:40:23] ▶

uh i know there's a guy who talked about this stuff who was like mysteriously murdered or something yeah

[2:40:25 - 2:40:30] ▶

yeah i know his case extremely well yeah and it'll come to me in a second sure why my my brain is

[2:40:30 - 2:40:36] ▶

spazzing out of the souder yeah so richard souder did uh a number of books in the 90s on in the early

[2:40:36 - 2:40:43] ▶

2000s on underground and also under sea uh potential bases and he you know a lot of his work was very good

[2:40:43 - 2:40:51] ▶

so he looked into the um technologies that we know exist to go deep under the ground

[2:40:51 - 2:41:00] ▶

and to go deep under the ocean floor and that this is not an impossibility um we actually have

[2:41:00 - 2:41:07] ▶

the ability all you really need is you need the ability to dig and if you're going to have a base

[2:41:07 - 2:41:14] ▶

permanently there you've got to be able to extract oxygen from the water but we've had that technology

[2:41:14 - 2:41:19] ▶

that's what nuclear submarines are able to they're not they're not under the water with uh you know

[2:41:20 - 2:41:25] ▶

supplies of oxygen tanks they have to extract oxygen out of the waters i think it's called

[2:41:25 - 2:41:30] ▶

hydrolysis whatever it is and they're they're able to do that so they're at least theoretically it seems

[2:41:30 - 2:41:37] ▶

that it would be possible that you could have a a whole array of underground and potentially undersea bases

[2:41:37 - 2:41:46] ▶

it's theoretical one thing that richard found was he ran into this uh guy who did illustrations for the

[2:41:46 - 2:41:53] ▶

u.s navy back in the late 60s and he was asked to develop a series of illustrations uh portraying

[2:41:53 - 2:42:03] ▶

undersea bases and operations wow and he he gave those illustrations to richard who published them in

[2:42:04 - 2:42:10] ▶

a book um which back in those days i was his publisher so i know about it quite well uh he's publishing

[2:42:10 - 2:42:17] ▶

it now but it's called hidden in plain sight it's a pretty good book interesting yeah so to your

[2:42:17 - 2:42:23] ▶

your question what catherine was asking about we're talking about these potential of under deep

[2:42:23 - 2:42:29] ▶

underground kind of a labyrinthian underground connection bases uh it's totally possible

[2:42:29 - 2:42:37] ▶

is it is it you know how true is it that's a question and you know speaking against that

[2:42:38 - 2:42:45] ▶

the uh prov bird lives there um so we don't want to agree with you i'm trying to consider

[2:42:45 - 2:42:52] ▶

씨 that i think phil indy马ine he brings you to my point of view i agree with you

[2:42:52 - 2:42:55] ▶

i don't think that where we could go i could think that we really would i would like to see some more

[2:42:55 - 2:42:59] ▶

actual investigative journalism on it that's that's somewhat recent that can that can support it

[2:42:59 - 2:43:01] ▶

but i wouldn't doubt that it's that it's a possibility yeah uh thinking of the other guy schneider phil schneider

[2:43:01 - 2:43:05] ▶

phil schneider of course might be the guy you're thinking oh yes phil schneider uh that's a whole

[2:43:05 - 2:43:11] ▶

other thing we could talk i'd rather not get into phil schneider but it's an interesting case and he

[2:43:11 - 2:43:16] ▶

does seem to have been murdered i don't think he committed suicide right i think he was killed

[2:43:16 - 2:43:22] ▶

um another thing so catherine was explained also talking a lot about these uh breakaway civilizations

[2:43:22 - 2:43:30] ▶

and the fact that if there is some breakaway civilization it's most likely going to be these

[2:43:30 - 2:43:35] ▶

bankers yeah like top level bankers that control all the money i think that's got to be true and

[2:43:35 - 2:43:42] ▶

these people were taking some of this money using money to explore space yeah and explore these

[2:43:42 - 2:43:47] ▶

really esoteric things yeah she describes it really uh nicely yeah and she says it's like imagine there's

[2:43:47 - 2:43:53] ▶

an open window in the room yeah and the money's just flying out right right so uh yeah she says

[2:43:53 - 2:43:59] ▶

it's like we don't have a closed system it's open and it's that's so uh that could really be the case

[2:43:59 - 2:44:05] ▶

i can't you know how that works financially i think she could probably speak a lot more intelligently

[2:44:05 - 2:44:11] ▶

than i can about it but the way she describes it seems quite quite logical and then you have these

[2:44:11 - 2:44:17] ▶

characters like elon musk who gets all these crazy contracts to launch these satellites into space and do

[2:44:17 - 2:44:24] ▶

all this work gets tons of money from the intelligence community and the u.s government

[2:44:24 - 2:44:31] ▶

to do all of this work and this is probably responsible for a lot of the money that he's

[2:44:31 - 2:44:36] ▶

that he's made and kept his companies alive that publicly will basically say that all this stuff's

[2:44:36 - 2:44:41] ▶

bullshit there's no no evidence of this stuff if they're yeah if these aliens exist they sure are uh

[2:44:41 - 2:44:46] ▶

subtle like we don't see anything like this you know so strange to me yeah like that's a really uh

[2:44:46 - 2:44:52] ▶

because he's made this statement many times and hey i'm not smarter than elon musk that's definitely

[2:44:52 - 2:44:57] ▶

i'm certainly not and um i don't know as many things as he knows i have no doubt about that he

[2:44:59 - 2:45:03] ▶

knows far more so it's hard for me to say oh he's full of it but for him he's made this statement a

[2:45:03 - 2:45:11] ▶

number of times that you know there's no he's not seen any evidence that there's anything extraordinary

[2:45:11 - 2:45:16] ▶

out there or he would have known about it and it's hard for me to know how to judge that i mean

[2:45:16 - 2:45:22] ▶

there is a tremendous amount of actually very good space-based evidence for anomalous activity out

[2:45:23 - 2:45:30] ▶

in earth orbit and beyond there's all kinds i mean there was a a young a man named jeff challender i knew

[2:45:30 - 2:45:38] ▶

jeff he's not alive anymore he uh he spent all of his time just pulling down nasa video footage from

[2:45:38 - 2:45:47] ▶

all the nasa space missions and just looking through them and he wasn't just some wide-eyed

[2:45:47 - 2:45:50] ▶

gullible believer he was i think a very uh very astute and he just kept finding all kinds of crazy

[2:45:50 - 2:45:56] ▶

things on these nasa missions objects out there that just did not make a lot of sense objects doing

[2:45:56 - 2:46:01] ▶

apparent u-turns at one point objects moving in angular motions in space there are things that you

[2:46:01 - 2:46:09] ▶

can put out there to to explain some of them maybe like a booster rocket went off and uh ice crystals

[2:46:09 - 2:46:17] ▶

moved off at an angle but there's there's a lot of these types of things that seem very bizarre and

[2:46:17 - 2:46:22] ▶

they're not all american you have had a lot of statements from american and soviet cosmonauts

[2:46:22 - 2:46:27] ▶

uh quite explicit quite explicit about uh bizarre anomalies there's a the popovich couple marina and

[2:46:27 - 2:46:37] ▶

pavel popovich of the soviet union both highly regarded uh cosmonauts in that country both spoke quite

[2:46:37 - 2:46:44] ▶

openly about uh these types of things in orbit that that they were aware of or had seen and uh quite a

[2:46:44 - 2:46:51] ▶

few soviet missions where they talked about this and enough american missions as well that you know i

[2:46:51 - 2:46:57] ▶

don't think you can just dismiss that so for elon musk to say you know to dismiss it all which with

[2:46:57 - 2:47:03] ▶

a wave of the hand as he seems to do i i find very curious yeah have you heard of the uh the guy who

[2:47:03 - 2:47:10] ▶

allegedly works for him who works for the nro who uh i think diana pisolka wrote about him in her first

[2:47:10 - 2:47:16] ▶

book who has all these patents and like worked with this dude chris bledsoe and apparently like

[2:47:16 - 2:47:21] ▶

read him into all this super secret stuff talked about all these crazy oh this the high level nasa

[2:47:21 - 2:47:25] ▶

individual i think yeah there was two of them there was one of them named hal paven meyer who

[2:47:25 - 2:47:29] ▶

apparently like mapped the moon and then uh there was this other guy um i think his name was tim who

[2:47:29 - 2:47:35] ▶

yeah who uh apparently like said all kinds of stuff to chris like told him like we brought him to cape

[2:47:35 - 2:47:43] ▶

canaveral which is like two and a half hours from here yeah and said that when you go through the

[2:47:43 - 2:47:47] ▶

gates just play your favorite song in your head because these people are trying to read your mind

[2:47:47 - 2:47:51] ▶

and it's very interesting very very bizarre yeah she that's a good that's an interesting book

[2:47:51 - 2:47:56] ▶

and uh i don't know what to say about this i mean i've i've uh spoken with chris bledsoe myself a few

[2:47:56 - 2:48:02] ▶

times a number of times and um is that believable yeah that's totally believable yeah yeah i could

[2:48:02 - 2:48:09] ▶

some of the stuff i could believe i could believe what she wrote i don't i can't say that i know but i

[2:48:09 - 2:48:15] ▶

could believe it yeah i've had uh i've been reading a lot of ufo researchers who have various takes on

[2:48:15 - 2:48:26] ▶

chris bledsoe and quite a few of them have come out and and made the assertion that he is like a

[2:48:26 - 2:48:34] ▶

modern day paul bennewitz well one thing that i can say um i actually did an extended interview with chris

[2:48:34 - 2:48:43] ▶

uh a couple of years ago i think it might have been it might have been the first extended interview

[2:48:43 - 2:48:49] ▶

that he did with anyone on on um social media could be when was it 2017 2018 a while ago i think

[2:48:49 - 2:48:58] ▶

so a couple of things first of all chris is a absolutely super decent human being his whole

[2:49:00 - 2:49:06] ▶

family they're very good people and his uh original sighting the one from 20 2007 i don't think there's

[2:49:06 - 2:49:13] ▶

any question about it there's in fact just recently didn't a number of new people have come out to

[2:49:13 - 2:49:18] ▶

attest to that certainly there's him there's his son and the other witnesses um i think all have come out

[2:49:18 - 2:49:24] ▶

i i don't think there's any reason to doubt that and that's an extraordinary ufo the org stuff uh there

[2:49:24 - 2:49:30] ▶

was a craft that they definitely saw in the woods in north carolina yeah yeah yeah so i have no reason

[2:49:30 - 2:49:37] ▶

to doubt that at all and and the subsequent activities that have had that have happened on

[2:49:37 - 2:49:45] ▶

his property which i have not been to so i need to be upfront about that um you know it's hard for me

[2:49:45 - 2:49:51] ▶

to say i wasn't i've not been there yeah i've heard different types of stories but i i think it's fair

[2:49:51 - 2:49:57] ▶

to say that there's some odd things that are going on there now is it an op or not i i don't know

[2:49:57 - 2:50:01] ▶

yeah i i tend to um i i don't think he's making any of this stuff up i feel like uh my my gut told

[2:50:02 - 2:50:09] ▶

me when he was explaining all this stuff to me was that like this is something that he really experienced

[2:50:09 - 2:50:14] ▶

um the thing that just raises my hairs is the fact that all these people from intelligence and and

[2:50:14 - 2:50:21] ▶

nasa are like clinging to him well there's a couple of ways to look at it one is that it's an op

[2:50:21 - 2:50:27] ▶

and they're they're screwing with them yeah i love benowitz okay the other possibility is that they

[2:50:27 - 2:50:32] ▶

know that there's something to this yeah and they want to understand it better yeah like that's why

[2:50:32 - 2:50:40] ▶

would that not be a possibility one of the things about about stephen greer is that you know he

[2:50:40 - 2:50:45] ▶

develops these protocols he calls them the ce5 protocol yeah yeah okay so people have different

[2:50:45 - 2:50:50] ▶

opinions on this but there's no question in my mind that there is a consciousness element to this

[2:50:50 - 2:50:58] ▶

phenomenon that's real and there is no question as well that greer did get interest from the national

[2:50:58 - 2:51:07] ▶

security state i think partly because of this you know one of the things he talked about and it's true

[2:51:07 - 2:51:12] ▶

as far as i can see it's absolutely true is he met with a gentleman named john peterson of the arlington

[2:51:12 - 2:51:16] ▶

institute who was for many years on the short list of you know dod secretaries and things like that

[2:51:16 - 2:51:22] ▶

he was one but he's he's up there uh and also the then director of the cia james wolsey and their wives

[2:51:22 - 2:51:29] ▶

all of their power they went to some dinner together yeah they had dinner and this is i think in the late

[2:51:30 - 2:51:33] ▶

90s i think yeah no early 90s because wolsey was director of cia

[2:51:34 - 2:51:39] ▶

uh in uh the early 90s you know under clinton yeah so why would they do that i mean that's you know

[2:51:39 - 2:51:50] ▶

in the early 90s is there any is there any proof that he had that meeting yes there is because the

[2:51:50 - 2:51:57] ▶

argument is over what the what it constituted uh guerrero was called it a briefing yeah and they

[2:51:57 - 2:52:05] ▶

wrote they issued a letter so i i'm sure i have it somewhere it's searchable it's got to be searchable

[2:52:05 - 2:52:11] ▶

where they just said uh this was not a briefing this was an informal like a dinner as a you know and

[2:52:11 - 2:52:18] ▶

they were they were clearly furious that he talked about it wow they were they were clearly very unhappy

[2:52:18 - 2:52:25] ▶

about that so i think yeah he did meet with them and then you have to ask yourself you know i mean

[2:52:25 - 2:52:31] ▶

greer can talk about this much more uh forthrightly than i can but he wasn't famous at that time like

[2:52:31 - 2:52:39] ▶

who knew him you know he was this guy who had just gotten into the ufo field yeah um medical doctor

[2:52:40 - 2:52:46] ▶

talking about crop circles in england in the early 90s he did a little bit of that and

[2:52:46 - 2:52:51] ▶

uh he gets this interest from these very high level people why

[2:52:52 - 2:52:55] ▶

i had a gentleman on here uh a couple weeks ago who brought me a newspaper article that he had he

[2:52:55 - 2:53:04] ▶

paid for some uh subscription to some website that could pull up pdfs of like ancient news articles and

[2:53:04 - 2:53:12] ▶

he was basically making the case that um essentially what the news article showed was uh the description of

[2:53:12 - 2:53:19] ▶

greer the publishing in the newspaper of greer how he got married when he got married to his wife and all

[2:53:19 - 2:53:25] ▶

this stuff and it was like a little blurb in the newspaper how he got married at the baha'i institute

[2:53:25 - 2:53:29] ▶

in haifa and i've never heard him talk about any of this stuff and this was like in the i think it was

[2:53:29 - 2:53:35] ▶

in the 70s or late 70s maybe and this guy was making the case and that according because that he

[2:53:35 - 2:53:43] ▶

was in haifa working in haifa got married there and all this stuff that now he's essentially massad

[2:53:43 - 2:53:48] ▶

i well first of all i would never comment on some aspect of a person's life like that i have no

[2:53:48 - 2:53:54] ▶

no understanding of it and it's it is not for me to get involved in anything like that i if even if i

[2:53:54 - 2:54:00] ▶

had an opinion on it i would not offer it publicly but i don't think i even have an opinion on that

[2:54:00 - 2:54:04] ▶

yeah so i'm just gonna pass yeah yeah it's just it's just interesting that people can come up with

[2:54:04 - 2:54:09] ▶

these uh these crazy theories that you know who knows if they have legs or not but like again this

[2:54:09 - 2:54:14] ▶

just this is part of the territory when you're trying to navigate these things in the public and

[2:54:14 - 2:54:20] ▶

these people that come out and make these extraordinary claims and you know ignore certain things and

[2:54:20 - 2:54:26] ▶

they they they talk very confidently about things and make extraordinary claims but then you know

[2:54:26 - 2:54:35] ▶

leave certain things out that may not be uh foundational or may not support their story

[2:54:37 - 2:54:44] ▶

you know it's just part of this it's just i feel like it's part of the things that you have to sort of

[2:54:45 - 2:54:49] ▶

put out there and question when you're put in the place of of trying to evaluate whether these people

[2:54:49 - 2:54:54] ▶

are legitimate or not well one thing that i always have to remind myself of is uh that this whole subject

[2:54:54 - 2:55:01] ▶

uh you know i've kind of referred alluded to this a few times in this conversation with you but

[2:55:02 - 2:55:06] ▶

it's of profound significance and so that means there are people who have a stake um on the pro side

[2:55:07 - 2:55:15] ▶

and on the on the con side that want to keep this where it is because it is it's highly disruptive and so

[2:55:15 - 2:55:22] ▶

there's going to be intelligence community interaction with this subject that is a fact there is way too much

[2:55:22 - 2:55:28] ▶

at stake um and those individuals will use their assets in establishment media they will use their

[2:55:28 - 2:55:35] ▶

assets in academia when appropriate they will use their assets wherever they can within the community itself

[2:55:35 - 2:55:40] ▶

if need be and there's always been very high paranoia within the ufo community

[2:55:40 - 2:55:47] ▶

these conversations happen frequently enough it's like who do you think's working for everyone's an

[2:55:48 - 2:55:53] ▶

op yeah i mean uh it comes up frequently and um or it's come up frequently enough i suppose i can say

[2:55:53 - 2:55:59] ▶

and a i can just say to you very honestly i do not know right i cannot confirm anyone

[2:56:00 - 2:56:07] ▶

yeah uh specifically like that i can absolutely say they're working for the uh the government

[2:56:07 - 2:56:12] ▶

or the intel community i've had suspicions i continue to have suspicions and i i'm not going

[2:56:13 - 2:56:18] ▶

to mention who those i think those people are there's there's no win for me in that yeah i'm not going

[2:56:18 - 2:56:23] ▶

to get into that but well if anyone wins it's the intelligence agencies because because i mean

[2:56:23 - 2:56:28] ▶

according to the youtube comments i'm an op and then i question i question myself i've been called it

[2:56:28 - 2:56:33] ▶

many times i've been called massad i'm like seriously do you know uh yeah i don't know what

[2:56:33 - 2:56:39] ▶

to say about things like that so i've been well i think it works i think it like i said i think it

[2:56:39 - 2:56:44] ▶

works in the uh if there is some sort of uh general opportunity in the intelligence community to cover up

[2:56:44 - 2:56:55] ▶

secrets the fact that everyone on social media thinks everyone is working for an intelligence agency is a

[2:56:55 - 2:57:02] ▶

benefit to them absolutely it's it's a big it's a really big problem let's let's talk about this for

[2:57:02 - 2:57:07] ▶

a bit if you don't mind so i um you know i got into this whole field in the 90s when conspiracy theories

[2:57:07 - 2:57:18] ▶

were not really that much done yeah you know they were a little there were people out there uh i mean

[2:57:18 - 2:57:24] ▶

jim mars had already written his great book um crossfire the plot to kill kennedy i was good friends with

[2:57:24 - 2:57:29] ▶

jim mars i loved jim mars he was a great man uh but anyway like the 90s were it was you were kind of

[2:57:29 - 2:57:37] ▶

out there and we were developing as a society a um a much more like critical view and then you know for

[2:57:37 - 2:57:49] ▶

me 9 11 was what put me over the top by the way 9 11 put me and i think a lot of people full on in

[2:57:49 - 2:57:57] ▶

the government as actively lying about basically every single thing like i went there and i'm still

[2:57:57 - 2:58:03] ▶

there but the problem is when you think that everything is an op so that's a bit of a problem

[2:58:03 - 2:58:12] ▶

for me too like uh i said earlier like i almost wrote a book on false flags in the history of it so

[2:58:12 - 2:58:20] ▶

like there are lots of hops like they happen but when you reflexively i'm going to be careful how i

[2:58:20 - 2:58:30] ▶

say this conclude that every single thing coming at you is like someone's motivated yes for some reason

[2:58:30 - 2:58:38] ▶

and that that's a real problem because think about what that does if you were to act like that in your

[2:58:40 - 2:58:45] ▶

personal life like if your friend has something to say to you and you're not listening to what your

[2:58:45 - 2:58:51] ▶

friend's saying instead you're thinking what's his motivation for telling me that totally that's a

[2:58:51 - 2:58:55] ▶

great way to destroy every friendship you've ever had every relationship you've ever had every society

[2:58:55 - 2:58:59] ▶

that's ever existed it's a really dangerous solvent for the a certain amount of social cohesion we have

[2:58:59 - 2:59:07] ▶

to have you have to have there's got to be a way to have some trust in things that come at you but the

[2:59:07 - 2:59:13] ▶

problem that we have is we have good reason not to trust a lot like we have really good reason so

[2:59:13 - 2:59:20] ▶

but i do think what we've fallen into is i call it a kind of a post-modern trap which is when someone

[2:59:20 - 2:59:28] ▶

makes a claim about anything frequently from a lot of people the first thing you'll hear is oh that

[2:59:28 - 2:59:34] ▶

person worked for whatever agency right they've got they have an agenda that person believes this other

[2:59:34 - 2:59:40] ▶

thing in politics that i also don't agree with and therefore i'm not going to subscribe to what

[2:59:40 - 2:59:45] ▶

they have to say here and so in other words we're doing identity politics whether we've realized it or

[2:59:45 - 2:59:51] ▶

not we're not listening the one thing we're not doing is is hearing their message we're not actually

[2:59:51 - 2:59:57] ▶

listening to their information or not evaluating the information we're judging the person because we

[2:59:57 - 3:00:03] ▶

think they're an op and they work for this organization here and the fact is when you look at the ufo

[3:00:03 - 3:00:09] ▶

knowledge sphere over many years go back to the 1950s this is a period i've studied a lot

[3:00:09 - 3:00:15] ▶

there were a lot of military insiders in the 1950s who were totally of the belief that we need to get

[3:00:16 - 3:00:24] ▶

information on this subject out there and they put themselves out there so because they were working

[3:00:24 - 3:00:29] ▶

for the army or the navy am i supposed to then say oh well they've got some kind of they've got an agenda to

[3:00:29 - 3:00:35] ▶

proof that's a bad place to be because you know it it uh prevents you from actually studying their

[3:00:35 - 3:00:42] ▶

their information and the fact is that there are people from every part of the spectrum here in this

[3:00:42 - 3:00:48] ▶

field that have something to say and it's a real we're putting ourselves at a great disadvantage if we

[3:00:48 - 3:00:55] ▶

if we're playing identity politics with every single person out there and we're judging them

[3:00:55 - 3:01:01] ▶

are they on the good side or the bad side that's that's not good because there's information coming

[3:01:02 - 3:01:07] ▶

in from a lot of different places it seems to me yes which is why i appreciate when people like you

[3:01:07 - 3:01:12] ▶

who have a pragmatic view of all of this stuff and are able to take the information from all these cases

[3:01:12 - 3:01:18] ▶

and sort of see where they all fit together and maybe where they don't and um provide that to

[3:01:18 - 3:01:23] ▶

people in a balanced way i think it's that's that's super valuable and rare i never thought of when i was

[3:01:23 - 3:01:30] ▶

much younger i didn't think of myself as a pragmatist by nature i didn't really know that but over the

[3:01:30 - 3:01:35] ▶

years i've seen that and uh and i believe in that i believe in realism when it comes to global politics

[3:01:35 - 3:01:41] ▶

or when it comes to national things i try to be what i consider to be realistic rather than dogmatic

[3:01:41 - 3:01:48] ▶

and ideologically driven i've got my own beliefs about all kinds of things but i also realize

[3:01:49 - 3:01:55] ▶

that the world is you know i had a i grew up with a very liberal mother and a pretty conservative father

[3:01:57 - 3:02:03] ▶

and so that was kind of good because i was able to appreciate two very radically different world views

[3:02:03 - 3:02:10] ▶

that each of my parents had and to understand where they were coming from and to respect where they

[3:02:11 - 3:02:15] ▶

were coming from which i do to this day and that's that was good for me and uh i think that when

[3:02:15 - 3:02:24] ▶

uh you know as as we're in the world today i i just i take it as a given that there's always going to

[3:02:25 - 3:02:31] ▶

be people people out there who don't see the world the way i do and what am i supposed to like condemn them

[3:02:31 - 3:02:37] ▶

uh and just say well you're you're morally suspect because you have a different perspective on the

[3:02:37 - 3:02:44] ▶

world than i do that's kind of ridiculous but yeah we do it we do it all the time people on the right

[3:02:44 - 3:02:48] ▶

and the left they all do it and it's uh it's very unfortunate we get all apocalyptic about things yeah

[3:02:48 - 3:02:54] ▶

and we live in very dangerous times in many ways i'm not going to deny that very dangerous on many

[3:02:54 - 3:03:00] ▶

levels but uh the fact is that it is is not for me to um to write someone off just because they see

[3:03:00 - 3:03:10] ▶

the world differently than i do right well richard that was three hours you're kidding that was

[3:03:10 - 3:03:16] ▶

fantastic a lot of fun i enjoyed this thank you uh tell people uh where they can find your new book

[3:03:16 - 3:03:23] ▶

on usos and uh anything else you're doing yeah uh well i have my book on usos it's sold on amazon and

[3:03:23 - 3:03:32] ▶

it's in uh ebook it's paperback and hardcover and this week i expect the audio book finally to be out

[3:03:32 - 3:03:39] ▶

it's been submitted i'm just waiting for amazon to approve it so that's that's nice um i have a

[3:03:39 - 3:03:44] ▶

website called richardolemembers.com and um there's a paywall but there's a lot of free stuff

[3:03:44 - 3:03:49] ▶

there people can go uh take a look at it there's a lot of information there a great community i can't

[3:03:49 - 3:03:54] ▶

speak highly enough about the members of the site uh and i got my own youtube channel it's uh just

[3:03:54 - 3:03:59] ▶

called richard dolan intelligent disclosure people can there we go look at that that's right there

[3:03:59 - 3:04:03] ▶

jfk and ufos oh that's something we didn't go into wow that's a really uh wonderful i had a

[3:04:05 - 3:04:11] ▶

another fantastic guest for that going back to uh what we were just saying about how everyone has uh

[3:04:11 - 3:04:17] ▶

their own belief system surrounding everything i've noticed that everyone has their own flavor

[3:04:17 - 3:04:22] ▶

of the jfk assassination well he was definitely killed in a conspiracy in my opinion yes i would

[3:04:22 - 3:04:29] ▶

definitely lay the uh most of it at the cia and uh the the deep state um i think kennedy's assassination

[3:04:29 - 3:04:38] ▶

i liken it to agatha christie's murder on the orient express and plot spoiler everyone did it in that book

[3:04:38 - 3:04:45] ▶

everyone did everyone had a motive to kill this guy and that's jfk he was the his biggest problem

[3:04:45 - 3:04:53] ▶

i feel is that he really believed he was the president who could run things and he ran into a

[3:04:53 - 3:04:57] ▶

a bureaucracy that saw him as a threat on multiple levels so you had federal reserve you had vietnam

[3:04:57 - 3:05:04] ▶

you had ufos are part of that that's not right a trivial part of it not the whole thing though no

[3:05:04 - 3:05:10] ▶

no i think the uh the nuclear issue you know he was talking about nuclear disarmament with the

[3:05:10 - 3:05:14] ▶

with the soviet yep so what he was showing and then cuba that whole thing yep and shutting down

[3:05:14 - 3:05:19] ▶

operation mongoose and all this so jfk showed that he was he was an enemy on many fronts he had said

[3:05:19 - 3:05:27] ▶

famously he wanted to scatter the cia to the winds and uh he tried you know he fired alan dulles and

[3:05:27 - 3:05:35] ▶

bissell and but he yeah they knew he was a real problem he was a serious problem and you know what

[3:05:35 - 3:05:42] ▶

was the ultimate motivation i think the ultimate motivation was they were like no way we're gonna

[3:05:42 - 3:05:48] ▶

let this guy run the country for another month because he is he is a danger on too many levels yeah

[3:05:48 - 3:05:54] ▶

that's what they thought here's my book i totally agree there we go the history of usos

[3:05:55 - 3:06:00] ▶

unidentified submerged objects volume one with two and three to come yeah they'll be out this year

[3:06:00 - 3:06:05] ▶

all of the cases i've written them all i'm happy with how they read i keep adding new cases but uh

[3:06:05 - 3:06:11] ▶

basically i have to be done and what is required is uh just breaking them into chapters and doing

[3:06:11 - 3:06:17] ▶

those little chapter introductions that i was telling you about amazing so it's uh it'll be out well

[3:06:17 - 3:06:21] ▶

thanks again i really appreciate your time my pleasure thank you we have uh some patreon

[3:06:21 - 3:06:26] ▶

questions for our uh beautiful patreon subscribers so we'll do that separately from the podcast we'll

[3:06:26 - 3:06:30] ▶

rip through a couple of these questions if you don't mind yeah um gladly but that's all for the

[3:06:30 - 3:06:34] ▶

podcast so thanks again it was my pleasure good night folks

[3:06:34 - 3:06:37] ▶