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You brought up a lot of amazing research today about anti-gravity and projects that were going on in the 50s and 60s.
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But it starts in Nazi Germany.
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And they do know about like, comular stuff. Have you heard of that?
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So there's a, this SS officer named Hans Kahnler. He's the most ruthless Nazi.
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Like Albert Speer, who's head of all armaments for the Nazis, said,
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Hans Kahnler was the most ruthless, unscrupulous guy I was forced to collaborate with.
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He was talking about it and Nazis worked with like Hitler and Kerbolz and, you know, Himmler.
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And he's saying that this guy is like the craziest, most ruthless guy.
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By 1945, Hans Kahnler was in charge of all aerial armaments for the Nazis,
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the BTUs, A4s, everything.
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And he had this secret weapons program called Comlarstob or Škodaworks.
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And it was based in two places in Czechoslovakia and Poland.
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You had these three scientists. Richard Mita was doing high voltage stuff,
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which is very similar to what Townsend Brown was doing.
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Rudolf Schreiber, who was this German technician who had a design for a flying saucer.
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And he had another guy named Victor Schauberger, who lived in Austria.
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Who we know? He sat in his diaries, it says,
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Erich, he was a letter to his son. He says,
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I'm in Czechoslovakia and what I'm doing is top secret.
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So Škodaworks was like a real thing.
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And at the same time, you had FU fighters, which are these controlled balls of lightning
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with no vapor trails, moving in and out of Allied fighter flight pass.
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And so, you know, originally around 45,
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it was thought that Comlar died or would disappeared.
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And now we know actually from a couple of declassified documents
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that Comlar ended up in the US. Of course he did.
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And that we took him back.
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What's up guys? If you haven't already, please smash that subscribe button
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and hit that like button on the video.
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And if you don't have time to watch this episode right now,
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I'd really appreciate it if you saved it to your watch later playlist
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on YouTube. Finally, if you'd like to follow me on Instagram or X,
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those links are in my description below.
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Jesse Michaels, this is like 11 months in the making my friend.
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Truly is. It's an honor to be here.
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Dude, thanks for having me.
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Thanks for coming, man.
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I've got some good phone calls.
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You are without a doubt in the uFology space alone,
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but I would expand that and say within, you know,
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someone who's not literally a physicist or something like that.
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In that space, you're the most well-read person.
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I've seen creating content.
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You got every, have you watched some of those guys videos where every other line,
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it's like, if you've ever read the book so and so, I'm like, God damn it.
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Where do you get the time to read all this stuff?
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I've usually read half of those books or like three quarters or like, I don't know.
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I think sometimes you've probably given your line of work.
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We do very similar things.
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You get into a topic, you get so obsessed, and you just need to find the answer from a specific book,
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and then you end up like finding out all this other information.
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And so I feel like I read a lot of books, not honestly in this leisurely way,
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but like I'm like rummaging through them for like specific stuff,
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and then you end up picking up a lot in the process.
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And so, I don't know.
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That's what I got before I ever did this podcast.
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That's what I got to do.
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Like reading is my favorite thing to do.
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But it's been like four and a half years of just like,
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there's constantly something going on.
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And when I read, I fall asleep with the Kindle on my face,
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you know, at night after like two pages.
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And it's killing me because I used to be able to, not maybe not on your level,
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but I used to be able to be like, yeah, if you read this book or read that,
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no, I'm like, I gotta catch the fuck.
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But how did you, a lot of people on the internet kind of wonder about your background
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and how you ended up, you know, you're not old,
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knowing all this stuff about this space and really being a thought leader
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and get to your connections with David Grush and all that.
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But how'd you even end up working with Peter Teal, investing his money?
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How does this happen?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It's funny. Nobody really asked me that on podcast.
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I, I cold reached out to him.
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And then we got lunch and hit it off.
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And, yeah, and I pitched him on all sorts of things in that first meeting.
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I was like, we should write a book together.
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And I had all these crazy ideas.
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And I think he looked at me and he was like, you're insane.
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Like, what are you talking about?
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And then, did you slide into his DMs?
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Was that what you did?
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I didn't slide into his DMs.
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It was a conventional way of reaching out.
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But I won't say where, because I don't want him to get blown up on, you know,
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But, yeah, message Tim and, or email him or whatever, you know, who knows.
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And for whatever reason he got back to me, and I remember actually,
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I was like with a friend when he got back to me.
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I was like, I think Peter Teal just got back to me.
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And he was like, that's not him.
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Like, what are you talking about?
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I was at Google at the time.
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And, and then, yeah, kind of saw eye to eye on a bunch of things.
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And, pitch them on all sorts of things that made no sense.
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And we're like way above my pay grade, like writing a book, you know, whatever.
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And then we kind of landed on it.
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And he was like, okay, this kid has like some spunk, you know, he's kind of interested in a lot of things.
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He clearly like understands like some of my, you know, ideology.
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And I started bringing opportunities, you know, companies to invest in.
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Interesting people to meet.
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And that was almost like a de facto interview.
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Like, I had known him for three or four months before getting a full-time job.
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And then it kind of came to a breaking point where I was having so much more fun with the work I was doing with him
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versus being just like a bee in a hive, you know, cog in the machine at Google.
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And, yeah, and then I've worked with him ever since.
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Full-time for four years.
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And then for the last two and a half years, kind of had my own P&L that I invest out of through the family office, basically.
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So when you worked, were you with Founders Fund when you were working with him directly?
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But now you're investing money through that that's your money and also like, I do invest like a lot of my own money.
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But it's, you know, nothing compared to what we invest.
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I mean, you're allocating towards projects as a venture capital.
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And you could think of him as like the sole LP.
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Like, it's a family office.
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So it's just his money.
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And then I'm helping him by sourcing investments essentially.
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Again, though, like, you know, you've obviously, if you're impressed in Peter Teal when you're 25,
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with like your eye for a company or like an idea, there has to be obviously a lot of studious work that gets you that point.
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But there has to be like an innate talent.
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So were you like one of those teenagers that was just like looking at the latest startup and trying to figure out what many go?
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You know, I did like right before I met him.
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I made like a Princeton review of startups.
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So it's like, like when you're picking which college to go to, you have like the Princeton review, you have like, you know, the US News World Report or whatever.
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And like these are like mostly kind of BS or whatever.
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But in certain cases, they give you information on which school you want to go to based on criteria that you're interested in.
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And I always thought if you're joining a startup, you really are like, you have to think like a VC.
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You have to think like a venture capitalist like 90% of those are just not going to work out.
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And so I was like bored of my job at Google.
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And so I was like reviewing a bunch of these startups, like thinking about which ones I thought would do well and which ones I wouldn't at the time I had no idea what I was doing.
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And then I also like for a little bit, I was sourcing like I met Ashton Kutcher randomly when I was at Google ThwarsomPew.
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But I was like scouting for sound ventures, his like venture capital group in LA.
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That's right. He has that.
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Yeah, he has that. And he's actually like very serious about it.
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And so like, I don't know.
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I had this deal with Angel List where if I sourced stuff for other VCs and other investors, like I could get some carry or something.
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So I had that for a brief period.
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And I didn't even do any deals with it.
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It was like two or three months before meeting Peter.
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And I was doing the reviews and stuff.
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So I was getting into it.
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But I was at Google.
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I was like, you know, an employee at a big tech company.
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And yeah, it's kind of crazy.
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And a lot of serendipity I think was involved.
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But even if you're like a cog on the wheel, so to speak, and a major company like that, you're still basically like coming out of college, working at Google.
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You have access to learning about how things work on a level that you don't get at most say corporate places.
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And I think the seeds of what I'm doing now with interviewing people were really planted.
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Maybe at Google actually before that, like in college, I interned for Charlie Rose and for John Stewart, the daily show and stuff.
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What agency do you work for?
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What agency do you work for?
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I think like the auto complete of like Julian Dory CIA.
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It was all one viral curly hair.
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That's what Andrew Bruce Demade.
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That's who we're talking about.
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That's who we're talking about.
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I want to interview.
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He sounds interesting.
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He really is everywhere.
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So the seeds were probably planted earlier as far as interviewing people.
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But at Google, I was kind of getting a little bored in my job.
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And I had a friend who basically ran talks at Google.
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So like the Ted talks at Google or whatever.
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And he was like, look, you know, I know you're not that happiest in your job.
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If you want to bring in anybody who's like a high profile or interesting, you just hit him up, bring him in.
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And I'll give you carte blanche.
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You can interview whoever you want as part of, you know, talks at Google.
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And so I just started to do that.
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And that was actually the context in which I got in touch with Peter.
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As I was like, hey, you should come in and, you know, speak at Google.
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Hey, guys, for the next 45 minutes of this conversation, Jesse and I went on a long tangent about things that have nothing to do with the rest of the podcast that you guys are here for and what you clicked on.
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So he and I made a decision for me to put that on my Patreon.
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If you guys want to check that out, that link is in the description below.
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We're going to skip ahead now to exactly what you clicked on.
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But let's get to the fun stuff, Jesse.
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That's why I got you here.
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You are the host of American Alchemy and your channel is now officially called Jesse Michaels.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But the show is still American Alchemy.
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Okay. So Jesse Michaels American Alchemy will have the link in description.
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And dude, your sit downs are amazing.
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Like, like, you are, it makes sense that you were doing talks at Google.
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That's a pretty high level place with high level people to do it.
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Because as an interviewer, you are excellent.
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And you get a lot out of your people.
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Your most recent one, I think, was the Danny Sheehan one.
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Thank you for hooking them up to come in here.
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I'm looking forward to that.
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That sit down was amazing.
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And the amount of information you were able to get him to go into because of your own knowledge is extremely impressive.
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But, you know, I guess you laid out the history of it.
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You were talking to people at Google and then you helped out Eric build the portal.
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But at what point were you like, hey, I'm really interested in say, you follow G physics and some esoteria, if you will.
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I want to go start my own channel.
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Yeah, it was the pandemic hit Eric stopped doing the portal.
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And I think the pandemic for a lot of people is like this forcing function to like do what you're supposed to do in life.
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And I had had that three line of like the toxic Google, the bringing in interesting speakers or whatever in the teal orbit.
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And, you know, working for Charlie Rose back in a day and for John Stewart and stuff.
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And so it was always this itch of like, you know, maybe I could actually interview people myself and maybe start a show or something.
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But it was always kind of in the back of my head and the pandemic hit.
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You find yourself with like, you know, time, I think existential questions get pulled forward.
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And Eric, you know, stops the portal and I'm like, okay, like, you know, maybe I'll try my own hand at this.
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And there are a lot of these kind of fringe topics at the time that I don't mean it wasn't like a cynical thing like, oh, I think this is going to get bigger.
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I was just interested in it like like the UFO stuff.
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I was just really like, I think anomalies and science are kind of like tells on like what the next on the next paradigm.
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And so I viewed the UFO thing as like, this very interesting like glitch in the fabric of reality that point to where we're going next.
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And so that just like took me down these crazy rapples.
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This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
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Because masks should be for Halloween fun, not our emotions.
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You've heard me talk on my podcast about how therapy has benefited me a couple times in the past.
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If I hadn't had a true professional to vent to someone who could really help me understand my emotions and make sense of them, I would have had a lot more trouble getting through those situations.
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That's BetterHelpHELP.com slash Julian to get 10% off your first month and you can find that link in my description below.
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And that was right around the time when in my life I was experiencing like a lot of kind of trippy stuff.
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And so that right when the pandemic hit, I like saw a couple of UFOs actually like in a short period of time.
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And where one was in Laurel Canyon where I lived in LA and kind of crazy.
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And then the other wasn't silver lake actually.
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And then I guess I saw third, but that was like far in the distance.
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And so like that was a little more more unclear.
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What did you see in each case?
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Well, let's start with the first one.
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So Laurel Canyon, it was actually really, it's a really trippy story.
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I was walking with this girl I was kind of dating at the time.
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Beautiful coast reek and girl.
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And we were walking and for whatever reason, like one of us brings up aliens.
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Like do you believe in aliens?
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And I was like, yeah, like I'm actually kind of interested in that.
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And she was like, I definitely believe in aliens.
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And I was like, I would love to like be an alien.
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That would be awesome.
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Like we're just, I don't know, like messing around.
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And she's like, it'll happen when you least expect it.
[0:15:10 - 0:15:15] ▶
I'm like that interesting.
[0:15:17 - 0:15:18] ▶
But like, you know, that was like this really interesting like point that she was kind of like this philosophical point that she was making.
[0:15:18 - 0:15:23] ▶
And we're walking by a guy who has a metal detector.
[0:15:23 - 0:15:28] ▶
And he's like, I don't know, like like like, like, like, panning for gold or something.
[0:15:28 - 0:15:32] ▶
But it's in Laurel Canyon.
[0:15:32 - 0:15:33] ▶
And it's like, it's sundown.
[0:15:33 - 0:15:35] ▶
It's like, I don't know, 630 or 7 or something.
[0:15:35 - 0:15:37] ▶
Like it makes like no set.
[0:15:37 - 0:15:38] ▶
Like why is this guy with like a metal detector?
[0:15:38 - 0:15:40] ▶
He's like looking for it.
[0:15:40 - 0:15:41] ▶
As she's saying, like, this will happen when you stop looking for it.
[0:15:41 - 0:15:45] ▶
And so like we walk by this guy.
[0:15:45 - 0:15:47] ▶
And I'm like, okay, like cool.
[0:15:47 - 0:15:50] ▶
We like move on to other subjects or whatever.
[0:15:50 - 0:15:52] ▶
And we're having like a great time.
[0:15:52 - 0:15:53] ▶
And I just see like this clearing like above the, you know, the Laurel Canyon is full of trees.
[0:15:53 - 0:16:00] ▶
So it's a little clearing.
[0:16:00 - 0:16:02] ▶
And just this crazy craft, not like a, not like a circular craft.
[0:16:02 - 0:16:10] ▶
Like it looks like a school bus or something in the air.
[0:16:10 - 0:16:13] ▶
It's the weirdest looking thing.
[0:16:13 - 0:16:15] ▶
I've had a couple of people who have told the story to send me like possible analogs of this thing since.
[0:16:15 - 0:16:22] ▶
But it looked like nothing I could just ever explain.
[0:16:22 - 0:16:25] ▶
Like maybe 50, 60 feet, like not far.
[0:16:26 - 0:16:29] ▶
And it just like goes over the tree tops.
[0:16:30 - 0:16:32] ▶
And I'm like, what the hell is that?
[0:16:32 - 0:16:34] ▶
And then she says that she saw it.
[0:16:34 - 0:16:37] ▶
Keep going over the tree tops.
[0:16:37 - 0:16:39] ▶
And then like vertically descend like down.
[0:16:39 - 0:16:42] ▶
And I, I didn't see that part.
[0:16:43 - 0:16:45] ▶
But like, yeah, that was like a really trippy experience where I was like, what the hell was that?
[0:16:45 - 0:16:51] ▶
And it's just a regular walk.
[0:16:51 - 0:16:52] ▶
It's just a regular walk.
[0:16:52 - 0:16:53] ▶
Yeah, not on anything.
[0:16:54 - 0:16:56] ▶
I mean, you could like, we could bring her on.
[0:16:57 - 0:17:00] ▶
She's still a friend of mine.
[0:17:00 - 0:17:01] ▶
She would corroborate it.
[0:17:02 - 0:17:03] ▶
You could get them around.
[0:17:03 - 0:17:04] ▶
But so that's like 2020 or?
[0:17:04 - 0:17:08] ▶
Because it was after the pandemic.
[0:17:15 - 0:17:16] ▶
So like that happens.
[0:17:17 - 0:17:18] ▶
Is there a moment the next day where you're like holy fuck?
[0:17:19 - 0:17:21] ▶
Where does that happen like right away where you're like holy fuck?
[0:17:21 - 0:17:23] ▶
I mean, right away you're like, this isn't saying like, what is this?
[0:17:24 - 0:17:27] ▶
But weirdly, I think if you're into the topic, it was more like confirming.
[0:17:27 - 0:17:32] ▶
It was like, okay, like at that point I had like been plugged in and I like, I had met Jacques
[0:17:32 - 0:17:36] ▶
Valle and I had met Gary Nolan, some of these people.
[0:17:36 - 0:17:40] ▶
And like, I had felt like, you know, okay, this stuff is real.
[0:17:40 - 0:17:45] ▶
And so it wasn't like insanely ontologically shocking.
[0:17:45 - 0:17:49] ▶
It was more like confirming.
[0:17:49 - 0:17:50] ▶
It was more like, oh, you really should like look, look at into this stuff because like,
[0:17:50 - 0:17:54] ▶
I think this stuff is really real.
[0:17:54 - 0:17:56] ▶
When was the first like, I always say when we're talking about this topic, I had not my
[0:17:57 - 0:18:04] ▶
I just assumed aliens existed.
[0:18:05 - 0:18:06] ▶
It was mathematically like the galaxy's huge.
[0:18:06 - 0:18:08] ▶
There's life out there.
[0:18:08 - 0:18:09] ▶
Never thought about it.
[0:18:09 - 0:18:10] ▶
It wasn't like I was sitting there like, wow, I wonder where they are.
[0:18:11 - 0:18:13] ▶
And then my producer, Alessie, who's not here today, he went and made moment of contact
[0:18:13 - 0:18:19] ▶
with James Fox in Brazil.
[0:18:19 - 0:18:22] ▶
And I was really getting to know him well at the time and he knew so much about this stuff
[0:18:22 - 0:18:26] ▶
and he really got me, I'm like, oh, he got hit.
[0:18:26 - 0:18:30] ▶
And so I really started looking into it and looking at the history of it or whatever.
[0:18:30 - 0:18:34] ▶
But like were you someone as a little, even like as a little kid, you were reading up on
[0:18:34 - 0:18:40] ▶
this and things like it was always there or did it really come later once you were meeting
[0:18:40 - 0:18:44] ▶
the Jacques Valle's of the world?
[0:18:44 - 0:18:46] ▶
I always, I think I had like a trippy worldview.
[0:18:48 - 0:18:51] ▶
I didn't think of it as that.
[0:18:51 - 0:18:53] ▶
But I had this godfather who like writes books with my dad's like a self-help author and
[0:18:53 - 0:19:00] ▶
And my godfather's this guy named Phil Stutz who Jonah Hill actually made a Netflix documentary
[0:19:01 - 0:19:06] ▶
And he's this like really trippy psychiatrist who like is very interested in like Rudolph
[0:19:08 - 0:19:13] ▶
And I don't know if you're familiar with this.
[0:19:14 - 0:19:16] ▶
In 19th century and early 20th century Austrian philosopher, he's very interested in like
[0:19:16 - 0:19:24] ▶
esotericism and has like this like wacky alternative worldview that involves the arc
[0:19:24 - 0:19:29] ▶
of the covenant like different like civilizational cycles.
[0:19:29 - 0:19:32] ▶
Like he's claimed to like be like kind of clairvoyant and like see like lights around
[0:19:32 - 0:19:36] ▶
people's head like really trippy stuff.
[0:19:36 - 0:19:38] ▶
But then he's also like one of the forefathers of like modern organic farming techniques.
[0:19:38 - 0:19:42] ▶
So I always look for like the intersection between rigor and trippy.
[0:19:42 - 0:19:46] ▶
I think there's a lot of the trippy loose stuff and you can kind of like out of you know
[0:19:46 - 0:19:50] ▶
out of hand dismiss a lot of that stuff.
[0:19:50 - 0:19:52] ▶
But when you see like trippy and you know also rigorous and like how the person's contributed
[0:19:52 - 0:19:57] ▶
to the real world like that that that's always been very interesting.
[0:19:57 - 0:20:00] ▶
You know as a heuristic.
[0:20:00 - 0:20:02] ▶
And so I was into into Steiner and like I would you know read some of this stuff.
[0:20:02 - 0:20:05] ▶
But I'd always compartmentalize it.
[0:20:05 - 0:20:07] ▶
I was always like you know this is like this this stuff's real over here like I was a history
[0:20:07 - 0:20:11] ▶
major and like you know they always it very ambitious and like a worldly sense.
[0:20:11 - 0:20:17] ▶
And then the trippy stuff that was just like kind of like a fun thing or something.
[0:20:17 - 0:20:22] ▶
And then I think the two started to cohere maybe a little pre pandemic like I read American
[0:20:22 - 0:20:27] ▶
Cosmic by Dana Poussalca.
[0:20:27 - 0:20:29] ▶
She's this religious scholar religious studies professor from UNC Wilmington.
[0:20:29 - 0:20:35] ▶
And she wrote about the UFO thing is like a modern kind of religious phenomena.
[0:20:35 - 0:20:40] ▶
And she wrote it's such a trippy book man because like the first half of the book is
[0:20:40 - 0:20:46] ▶
like this almost like literary critique of modern ufology where it's like this thing
[0:20:46 - 0:20:52] ▶
was like built in like a Disney studio.
[0:20:52 - 0:20:53] ▶
It's like a sciat like like media like shades the way we perceive and recollect a lot
[0:20:53 - 0:20:59] ▶
of these UFO experiences which by the way I do believe.
[0:20:59 - 0:21:03] ▶
But you you you're halfway through the book and you're like oh this is like not a real
[0:21:03 - 0:21:08] ▶
This is fully fabricated and constructed.
[0:21:09 - 0:21:11] ▶
This is like a deep state thing or whatever they want you to believe in you if at whatever.
[0:21:11 - 0:21:15] ▶
Maybe it's like experiment with cult creation or like look at like belief system.
[0:21:15 - 0:21:20] ▶
I don't know there are various ways you could spin it you know tech protection whatever.
[0:21:20 - 0:21:26] ▶
And then like halfway through you realize she's actually like starting to go down into
[0:21:26 - 0:21:30] ▶
like the rabbit hole of like UFO stuff and like the the observer and the observed like
[0:21:30 - 0:21:34] ▶
kind of like you know meld or whatever and like all of a sudden she doesn't have like
[0:21:34 - 0:21:39] ▶
this impartial distance and like she becomes this like UFO convert in a sense herself.
[0:21:39 - 0:21:44] ▶
And it's just such a like mind fuck it's like it really is is this trippy thing.
[0:21:44 - 0:21:49] ▶
You did a great podcast with her well I mean you do like documentaries that was a great
[0:21:49 - 0:21:53] ▶
documentary interview sit down.
[0:21:53 - 0:21:54] ▶
Diana she's she's the she's the best she's awesome and I think she's almost in some sense
[0:21:55 - 0:22:00] ▶
like a modern mystic or something herself like she's clearly like this intense truth
[0:22:00 - 0:22:05] ▶
So I think the two co here like around you know the the kind of trippy random you know
[0:22:07 - 0:22:11] ▶
history of intellectual history and then the UFO stuff really co here to around the pandemic.
[0:22:11 - 0:22:17] ▶
And interestingly I think there were a record number of UFO sightings in 2020 as well
[0:22:17 - 0:22:22] ▶
just like in mass and large.
[0:22:22 - 0:22:24] ▶
I think the pandemic itself when you pause and you evaluate your life and you're like
[0:22:24 - 0:22:30] ▶
at home and you're not like in this like kind of busy mindset.
[0:22:30 - 0:22:34] ▶
I think you start to experience maybe an expanded world view and you start to think about
[0:22:34 - 0:22:39] ▶
like some of these deeper existential questions and you know maybe maybe interact with other
[0:22:39 - 0:22:44] ▶
worlds or other timelines or you know I don't quite know how this stuff works we can get
[0:22:44 - 0:22:48] ▶
into some of the theoretical models.
[0:22:48 - 0:22:49] ▶
But I definitely experienced that myself.
[0:22:50 - 0:22:54] ▶
So what do you think you know when when you look at the potential that
[0:22:54 - 0:23:00] ▶
an advanced civilization whether it be aliens or future humans who I think by my definition
[0:23:00 - 0:23:08] ▶
are aliens as well you know the fact that they allegedly show themselves.
[0:23:08 - 0:23:15] ▶
Let's even assume that 99% of of claimed sightings aren't real.
[0:23:15 - 0:23:20] ▶
That still leaves you know at least some that are real.
[0:23:20 - 0:23:23] ▶
So if they show themselves and yet they're supposed to be this highly advanced society
[0:23:23 - 0:23:27] ▶
that could be invisible you know move at the speed of light.
[0:23:27 - 0:23:32] ▶
See you can't be seen walk among us and not have people know it yet they'll have these
[0:23:32 - 0:23:37] ▶
little tin cans in the sky so to speak at the fire gravity that at least we could see.
[0:23:37 - 0:23:42] ▶
I've always wondered if that's the kind of thing where they could fuck with us and they
[0:23:42 - 0:23:47] ▶
could simulate these things ahead of time.
[0:23:47 - 0:23:49] ▶
What kind of advanced civilization is crashing like a basic bitch crash and they're fucking
[0:23:51 - 0:23:54] ▶
azure after having two drinks.
[0:23:54 - 0:23:56] ▶
You know what I mean?
[0:23:56 - 0:23:57] ▶
Like couldn't they simulate that ahead of time to be like for example 1994 this in Bob
[0:23:58 - 0:24:02] ▶
Let's see what happens when we put a couple little alien men in front of these six seven
[0:24:03 - 0:24:08] ▶
eight year old kids back in the woods and have them have telepathy with each other and then
[0:24:08 - 0:24:12] ▶
extrapolate that to see what happens when the kids tell all the adults about it and how
[0:24:12 - 0:24:15] ▶
Do you think it's possible that they could be that and we're totally guessing here obviously
[0:24:17 - 0:24:21] ▶
it's totally theoretical but do you think it's possible they could be like simulating
[0:24:21 - 0:24:25] ▶
that stuff ahead of time as a part of you know their interest in us as a that is a subject.
[0:24:25 - 0:24:31] ▶
That is what I think.
[0:24:31 - 0:24:32] ▶
Like if you're running experiments on like this like snow globe of like little like you
[0:24:33 - 0:24:38] ▶
know critters ants or something or like like like this idea of like cellular automata where
[0:24:38 - 0:24:43] ▶
we're all like nodes or something.
[0:24:43 - 0:24:44] ▶
I think it's we don't know why these things are happening but if you wanted to sway you
[0:24:44 - 0:24:50] ▶
know society in some like different teleologies or whatever like these things first of all
[0:24:50 - 0:24:57] ▶
Teleology like like a direction with meaning but that's not a future to take.
[0:24:59 - 0:25:04] ▶
A teleology like a phrase that he says or something that's funny.
[0:25:07 - 0:25:10] ▶
Well you know what you're saying.
[0:25:10 - 0:25:13] ▶
No like I think if you're trying to like sway society it's like if you're trying to get
[0:25:14 - 0:25:19] ▶
rats to run a prime number maze you could do it with Pavlovian conditioning with the
[0:25:19 - 0:25:23] ▶
rats know that they're undergoing Pavlovian conditioning they'd have no idea but like
[0:25:23 - 0:25:27] ▶
you would is like this like you know more intelligent species.
[0:25:27 - 0:25:31] ▶
And so I think a lot of this stuff is inherently absurd it's high strangeness and how do you
[0:25:31 - 0:25:36] ▶
work on consciousness on like the consciousness layer like you would like you know it's like
[0:25:36 - 0:25:41] ▶
the the the the Zen Cohen the sound of one hand clapping like that confuses you like that
[0:25:41 - 0:25:47] ▶
like what is that you know that that's this like phrase that like Jacques Vallet himself
[0:25:47 - 0:25:51] ▶
like loves to bring up because it's like inherently this thing that scrambles your brain
[0:25:51 - 0:25:55] ▶
and you're like what what the hell and then you like think about it over and over and over
[0:25:55 - 0:25:58] ▶
And so something that happens to you that's like inexplicable or absurd you know it's
[0:25:59 - 0:26:04] ▶
like a glimpsing you know beyond the veil or whatever in the platonic sense where you know
[0:26:04 - 0:26:11] ▶
it's like a you know there's actually again in James Madden who I want to interview who
[0:26:11 - 0:26:15] ▶
like writes about UFOs in this context it's like a hyper object outside of the cave that
[0:26:15 - 0:26:20] ▶
causes you to contemplate another world but it causes you to do it by literally like breaking
[0:26:20 - 0:26:25] ▶
all of your rational kind of priors.
[0:26:25 - 0:26:28] ▶
And so I think it's clearly working on that metal layer like do I believe like the people
[0:26:28 - 0:26:33] ▶
who are like you know Eisenhower and the 50s or whatever signed a treaty it was like all
[0:26:33 - 0:26:37] ▶
the all the you know the Norricks were yeah right the Nordics and the Grey's and like you know
[0:26:37 - 0:26:43] ▶
we we became medical experiment subjects or whatever for you know in return for like some advanced
[0:26:43 - 0:26:48] ▶
technology or stuff like that.
[0:26:48 - 0:26:50] ▶
I don't really think so I think it's working on our consciousness layer and I think even some
[0:26:50 - 0:26:55] ▶
of the like weird you know possible physical implants which I'm vaguely sympathetic to without
[0:26:55 - 0:27:00] ▶
having like a ton of you know first-hand evidence like you know you hear a lot of stuff around that
[0:27:00 - 0:27:06] ▶
you know even that would probably be more like just kind of fucking with us a little bit causing
[0:27:06 - 0:27:11] ▶
us to think a lot about what those things are what what what are their motives and you know what
[0:27:11 - 0:27:16] ▶
are they what do they want from us.
[0:27:16 - 0:27:19] ▶
And so yeah I think I think something clearly around consciousness is happening where we're being
[0:27:19 - 0:27:24] ▶
primed our consciousness is being primed and that's moving us into the next epoch whatever that
[0:27:24 - 0:27:29] ▶
means for humanity but I'll tell you one thing if you just look at tech and where it is
[0:27:29 - 0:27:35] ▶
and where we are in our you know kind of primitive you know consciousness or whatever it's
[0:27:36 - 0:27:42] ▶
not going to work like this this this thing you know just a straight line no teleology you know
[0:27:42 - 0:27:48] ▶
very bad very destructive yeah like that's just not that we can't we're going to hit the great filter.
[0:27:48 - 0:27:53] ▶
So the optimistic take and maybe there's a dual you know their factions right maybe they're
[0:27:53 - 0:28:00] ▶
ones that are trying to enslave us and ones trying to raise our consciousness or whatever but like
[0:28:00 - 0:28:03] ▶
the optimistic streak of this is like it's causing you to like contemplate and think in a way that
[0:28:03 - 0:28:08] ▶
you wouldn't through like pure absurdity through like brain scrambling in a way that like we'll cause
[0:28:08 - 0:28:14] ▶
mankind to you know reach another level. Sure but if you go like the enslaved angle technically
[0:28:14 - 0:28:22] ▶
if we are the Pavlovian rats yeah that's a form of enslavement we just don't know it.
[0:28:23 - 0:28:28] ▶
Sure yeah yeah because we're you know doing all this weird shit to each other fighting over
[0:28:29 - 0:28:34] ▶
politics or you know people exercising free will and doing bad shit and they're like oh wow
[0:28:34 - 0:28:42] ▶
look at that look at what that rat did or whatever and it's like we're in this blissful ignorance but
[0:28:42 - 0:28:47] ▶
it does it gets it gets weird when you start to think of that and tie that to like consciousness and
[0:28:47 - 0:28:52] ▶
what that is yeah because of course where I go with this because my brain just that's what it
[0:28:52 - 0:28:59] ▶
thinks is it's like okay who who is God then and is there a God and is there something above all
[0:28:59 - 0:29:06] ▶
this and does that mean it's above an alien civilization in this way right like is there something
[0:29:06 - 0:29:11] ▶
that created all these things across the galaxy that could be like that less seen in men and black
[0:29:11 - 0:29:16] ▶
where it's just you know we are a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck you know like
[0:29:16 - 0:29:21] ▶
do you believe that there's like a creator that exists above everything I do yeah I believe
[0:29:21 - 0:29:26] ▶
yeah and I think if you look at most traditions there are humans there's God and then there
[0:29:26 - 0:29:31] ▶
beings on the way to God their demigods their angels their all sorts of you know and then they're
[0:29:31 - 0:29:37] ▶
like hybrid sometimes in the form of nephileme or you know tecarias, sitchens and anarchy or whatever
[0:29:37 - 0:29:43] ▶
which I'd place in another book at the night you know religions but like these these are common
[0:29:43 - 0:29:48] ▶
tropes is what I'm trying to say like it's actually an usual defined tradition in which there's
[0:29:48 - 0:29:53] ▶
nothing between men and God and in certain cases you have a taxonomy of angel hierarchies as well
[0:29:53 - 0:29:59] ▶
whether it's St. Thomas Aquinas or you know Syrian neoplateness the emplicus or you know you have a
[0:29:59 - 0:30:05] ▶
lot of these guys sort of you know with like specific angels kind of like literally descriptors
[0:30:05 - 0:30:13] ▶
next to them and stuff it's pretty interesting do you do you think some of religion could be
[0:30:13 - 0:30:18] ▶
I'm saying this very broadly but do you think some organized religion could be like a
[0:30:20 - 0:30:26] ▶
pretty good pretty good set of stories that are a useful distraction to kind of replicate our
[0:30:28 - 0:30:37] ▶
not replicate but like understand our our meaning while we're here yes but I would say it less
[0:30:37 - 0:30:42] ▶
cynically because I think in some ways yeah we might be seeing the source code or whatever I wouldn't
[0:30:42 - 0:30:47] ▶
call the source code aliens because we it's unclassified we don't know what these things are
[0:30:47 - 0:30:51] ▶
but like whatever we're more scientifically investigating is probably the underlying thing between
[0:30:51 - 0:30:56] ▶
a lot behind a lot of these religions but that should make one cynical because I think you can
[0:30:56 - 0:31:02] ▶
have two things simultaneously be true you can have you know one faction of these sort of you know
[0:31:02 - 0:31:07] ▶
aliens or angels or demons or whatever trying to stoke violence and cause us to you know being
[0:31:07 - 0:31:14] ▶
slave cause us to like stay with like lower consciousness or whatever and then you could have
[0:31:14 - 0:31:18] ▶
another faction that uses religion as an as an initiation path and you know is I think if you look
[0:31:18 - 0:31:27] ▶
at you know it's like I'm sympathetic to a lot of the the ideas that like like like Jesus for
[0:31:27 - 0:31:31] ▶
example kind of misdirected a lot of people and like yeah like John Locke wrote a book called
[0:31:31 - 0:31:37] ▶
you know the reasonableness of Christianity and you know even the concept of
[0:31:37 - 0:31:42] ▶
Musteria you know this Greek word for you know religious mystery it's just it's it's literally
[0:31:42 - 0:31:48] ▶
only for the disciples the disciples will know the truth and then nobody else will you know
[0:31:48 - 0:31:53] ▶
is it ready for the truth you have to have ears to hear the truth and I'm just using Christianity
[0:31:53 - 0:31:58] ▶
as an example but I think there are others and so that that to me that model which also like William
[0:31:58 - 0:32:04] ▶
James and the you know varieties of religious experience kind of talks about as well this idea of
[0:32:04 - 0:32:10] ▶
kind of like maybe some sort of inner circle you know and then you know kind of outer rings you know
[0:32:10 - 0:32:16] ▶
the outer rings go to you know they go to they do the kind of prosaic religious thing right like you
[0:32:16 - 0:32:21] ▶
you go to church you go to synagogue you engage in the rituals and it's like kind of this cultural
[0:32:21 - 0:32:26] ▶
communal thing and then they're kind of like the mystics and they're like just going for like the
[0:32:26 - 0:32:31] ▶
the truth and you can do that through I think science you can do it through religion itself and
[0:32:31 - 0:32:36] ▶
like spiritual purification I think you can go for that you know in many different ways and I think
[0:32:36 - 0:32:42] ▶
some of this touches on kind of nostic ideas you know what do I mean well no stasisms like it's
[0:32:42 - 0:32:50] ▶
a really poor kind of poorly defined group of you know it's there were no sticks like post Jesus
[0:32:50 - 0:32:58] ▶
or whatever but really it's like everything outside of like the council of Nicaea and like the kind
[0:32:58 - 0:33:05] ▶
of you know straight up canon and then there's like you know they're specific kind of like esoteric
[0:33:05 - 0:33:10] ▶
orders that are kind of associated loosely with nosticism but it's like this poor amalgamation of
[0:33:10 - 0:33:15] ▶
like a bunch of different things the way I'm using it here is like I think a lot of nostics are
[0:33:15 - 0:33:21] ▶
sympathetic to the guy and there's like this author named Hans Jonas who writes some good
[0:33:23 - 0:33:26] ▶
books in this area this idea that like man himself is godly and you know it's like a
[0:33:26 - 0:33:35] ▶
namaste or whatever is like you know I say hi to the god in you or something you're getting
[0:33:35 - 0:33:39] ▶
to what the Templars think essentially do you think the Templars think that yeah there's a lot of
[0:33:39 - 0:33:44] ▶
there there's a lot of discussion as to them being nostic and exactly what you just said god
[0:33:44 - 0:33:51] ▶
within you and protecting of traditions but recognizing that things have been changed and manipulated
[0:33:51 - 0:33:57] ▶
yeah well the Templars you know they were meant to protect Christ's bloodline was sort of the
[0:33:57 - 0:34:03] ▶
you know historical like myth around them and they would also protect prophets and you know kind
[0:34:03 - 0:34:10] ▶
of these weak sickly sears and they were very interesting order you know they had like a you
[0:34:10 - 0:34:16] ▶
know banking system back in the day that's actually what got them to trouble because Philip the
[0:34:16 - 0:34:21] ▶
fourth Philip the fair was indebted to them and then he got really mad at you know Jacques de
[0:34:21 - 0:34:26] ▶
Mollet and Jeffrey Dusharne and all these guys and basically like blot you know said that they're
[0:34:26 - 0:34:33] ▶
engaging in these blasphemous rituals worked with work with the Vatican to off with their head exactly
[0:34:33 - 0:34:40] ▶
Pope Pope Clement the fifth that really yeah god he's good not the fourth the fifth the fifth the
[0:34:40 - 0:34:48] ▶
fifth and I think you know Jacques de Mollet was you know he had he had been in touch with the
[0:34:48 - 0:34:54] ▶
Clement the fifth and I think Jacques de Mollet might have had like a very interesting worldview
[0:34:54 - 0:35:00] ▶
that he was trying to get out but who's the leader of the Templars he was the leader of the
[0:35:00 - 0:35:05] ▶
yeah I should have the the last grandmaster of the Templars and I think it was Friday the 13th
[0:35:05 - 0:35:09] ▶
1307 it was arrested and yeah I don't know you know it's like it's who knows exactly what they
[0:35:09 - 0:35:16] ▶
what they believed but they're a very very interesting group and some people think that you know
[0:35:16 - 0:35:21] ▶
maybe they went underground you know after after he was arrested and maybe they went to the you
[0:35:21 - 0:35:26] ▶
know if you read the Umberto echo it's like Italian medieval philosopher he thinks that maybe they
[0:35:26 - 0:35:30] ▶
went to the tenels of of of Provence and you know in in France you know other people's think they
[0:35:30 - 0:35:36] ▶
went to Scotland it's very interesting yeah I have a hard I studied the Templars a good bit
[0:35:36 - 0:35:44] ▶
no one called myself an expert on it but is it an interesting topic to me yes I have a very hard
[0:35:44 - 0:35:49] ▶
time believing that their quote-unquote bloodline ended when you know this thing went down this raid
[0:35:49 - 0:35:55] ▶
basically and then their leadership was executed it they had their hands on too many
[0:35:55 - 0:36:01] ▶
alleged secrets and they had too much
[0:36:02 - 0:36:05] ▶
multi-country organization yeah I mean you point out the banking system and shit like
[0:36:06 - 0:36:11] ▶
they were so advanced and operating on their own is this weird like warrior monk kind of thing
[0:36:11 - 0:36:18] ▶
where all the Templars then had to put their money into into the Templar group like they but they
[0:36:18 - 0:36:24] ▶
lived well among all the Templar but like it had such a a fraternal type feel to it that I I
[0:36:24 - 0:36:33] ▶
struggled to believe that it just went out like a light like that I would I would imagine it was
[0:36:33 - 0:36:38] ▶
kept alive if you know you can start to to pull it evidence and and maybe use a lot of circumstantial
[0:36:38 - 0:36:45] ▶
things at best to try to tie it to like free mason's or something like that I don't know the answer
[0:36:45 - 0:36:50] ▶
to those things but you know the the the concept of like protecting the bloodline of Christ or
[0:36:50 - 0:36:56] ▶
something I mean you want to talk about an ontological shock yeah type thing I mean holy shit bro
[0:36:56 - 0:37:02] ▶
yeah it's fascinating well I think in some ways they were protecting that you know at least
[0:37:02 - 0:37:07] ▶
Rudolph Steinere at a book actually the guy I mentioned the 19th century Austrian philosopher
[0:37:07 - 0:37:12] ▶
about the Templars and he says that the Holy Grail is actually metaphor for the human heart
[0:37:12 - 0:37:17] ▶
and that kind of the macro war or whatever the cosmic war actually goes on inside the human
[0:37:17 - 0:37:23] ▶
bloodstream and that the Templars rituals you know they were sort of they were simulating
[0:37:23 - 0:37:28] ▶
Peter's denial and like all sorts of like biblical stories and like these things that they would
[0:37:28 - 0:37:32] ▶
they would do and he would say that it was all about almost self-purification these were like
[0:37:32 - 0:37:39] ▶
self-purification rituals and that you you might be able to attain sort of a Christ-like
[0:37:39 - 0:37:44] ▶
consciousness or state or something through some through some of this stuff and that the Templars
[0:37:44 - 0:37:48] ▶
were in order to protect I mean even even like exoterically they were there to protect pilgrims
[0:37:48 - 0:37:55] ▶
you know and you had the hospitaliers or whatever were like the medic side of that
[0:37:56 - 0:38:00] ▶
so that was that was kind of their explicit intent and then yeah who knows you know it's all
[0:38:01 - 0:38:05] ▶
very interesting you go a lot different yeah the Da Vinci code yeah I really want to get that
[0:38:05 - 0:38:12] ▶
author in here you Dan Brown yeah I've been I've been working on it but have you that be honest he
[0:38:12 - 0:38:18] ▶
doesn't really do podcast yeah he's pretty off the bean path yeah he's he's a really cool man I
[0:38:18 - 0:38:24] ▶
mean he what again yeah I love actually angels and demons I thought that was fantastic yeah I've
[0:38:24 - 0:38:28] ▶
literally read the books like like the the movies are great but like I've read the books he's a
[0:38:28 - 0:38:33] ▶
really good writer and the stories are wild and like yeah I mean it is a fictionalized story and it
[0:38:33 - 0:38:37] ▶
draws on you know some imagination but there's also there's a baseline of of intense historical
[0:38:37 - 0:38:43] ▶
understanding of symbology yeah and culture and religion that exists within those pages that
[0:38:43 - 0:38:49] ▶
is just wildly fascinating yeah I agree but I got you on this tangent because you were talking about
[0:38:49 - 0:38:55] ▶
no system yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no I
[0:38:55 - 0:38:59] ▶
don't know I think I think um well I guess we were going back to the it'll kind of alien thing like
[0:38:59 - 0:39:03] ▶
are the are aliens like at all do they have to do with religion I think the easy cynical like way
[0:39:03 - 0:39:09] ▶
to like write off religion is like oh yeah like they've been like messing with us and like causing
[0:39:09 - 0:39:13] ▶
like holy wars but like really they just want the bloodshed or what they're like mining us for like
[0:39:13 - 0:39:17] ▶
bad bad vibes in the case of like Robert Monroe's like had this concept of you know he was studied
[0:39:17 - 0:39:22] ▶
consciousness and Virginia or whatever and he had this idea of loose and like these negative entities
[0:39:22 - 0:39:27] ▶
mining loose how would you do that at scale through like manufacturing wars or whatever I think it's
[0:39:27 - 0:39:32] ▶
easy to like get into that like line of thinking and then I think there's maybe another interesting
[0:39:32 - 0:39:36] ▶
line of thinking that's like um you know a religion can be this like really cool kind of initiation
[0:39:36 - 0:39:43] ▶
path and there's actually like a lot of truth in religion and it's so easy to like dismiss the
[0:39:43 - 0:39:48] ▶
Bible out of hand but actually it's like this and if you read like both the Old Testament and the
[0:39:48 - 0:39:54] ▶
New Testament like these are profound yeah they're like so fascinating yes and uh they're they're
[0:39:54 - 0:40:00] ▶
texts I think you get something different out of depending on the level of like that you're at
[0:40:00 - 0:40:05] ▶
and so it's important to like I think revisit these things and yeah yeah you make a good point
[0:40:05 - 0:40:10] ▶
there there there's definitely a level of truth that exists within there and look there's
[0:40:10 - 0:40:16] ▶
human error there's passed down stories there's things that are written a hundred years later there's
[0:40:16 - 0:40:21] ▶
translations that are translated fucking 12 different ways that get confusing but you know it's
[0:40:21 - 0:40:26] ▶
it's called the greatest book ever written because there's something at the core of humanity
[0:40:27 - 0:40:32] ▶
that exists in there now like you can separate out all these things you can separate the history of
[0:40:32 - 0:40:37] ▶
it versus what might be more fable and fairy tale you can separate out the religion and maybe the
[0:40:37 - 0:40:42] ▶
power structures that took advantage of that and continue to take advantage of it for not good
[0:40:42 - 0:40:46] ▶
things and you can separate out the piece of of religion that brings a lot of people something
[0:40:46 - 0:40:52] ▶
awesome in their life where you know I always always say this with these organized religions
[0:40:52 - 0:40:57] ▶
most of the people who are part of it it's it's used for positive in their life and it's a great
[0:40:57 - 0:41:01] ▶
thing it's a small percentage of people that use it for power or domination over others or no I say
[0:41:01 - 0:41:07] ▶
this a fuck you and whatever you think and unfortunately that's what gets attention but like
[0:41:07 - 0:41:11] ▶
you can separate all these ideas and realize it's complicated it just gets it gets weird when you
[0:41:11 - 0:41:18] ▶
look at it through the more esoteric sense and you see some of the things within there where you
[0:41:18 - 0:41:24] ▶
know kind of like what Diana was Pasoca looks at where it's like wait a second is there like some
[0:41:24 - 0:41:29] ▶
some code in here that means some things that that that we don't which which that we don't we didn't
[0:41:29 - 0:41:35] ▶
previously understand like that that topic is is so fascinating to me because you don't like
[0:41:35 - 0:41:43] ▶
with a book that holy the people who put it together it's almost like there's there's something
[0:41:43 - 0:41:48] ▶
coming to them there's these ideas or knowledge secrets from the universe that maybe have been
[0:41:48 - 0:41:54] ▶
passed down enough that it there's still that kernel of truth there but obviously like you were
[0:41:54 - 0:41:58] ▶
saying you really got into Diana's book and I think you described yours like a great white buffalo
[0:41:58 - 0:42:03] ▶
of coming on your show and you know what just for people out there who aren't familiar with her work
[0:42:03 - 0:42:09] ▶
you started to go into it but what what is she really getting at vis-a-vis UFOs and and religion?
[0:42:09 - 0:42:16] ▶
Yeah well she made this really interesting and so her first book was called Heaven Can Wait I believe
[0:42:16 - 0:42:20] ▶
it was published in 2014 and it was a history of like I think it was about the Catholic concept of
[0:42:20 - 0:42:26] ▶
purgatory and so she's going through all these like brothers, nuns, you know sisters,
[0:42:26 - 0:42:32] ▶
mothers of the church of the Catholic church experiencing like you know what they would call
[0:42:32 - 0:42:38] ▶
divine interactions or angelic interactions and in many cases it was like she was she was basically
[0:42:38 - 0:42:44] ▶
she she knows Greek and Latin she's a classicist and she was going back to the original translation
[0:42:44 - 0:42:48] ▶
not just taking kind of prima facia at face value the you know kind of modernization
[0:42:48 - 0:42:55] ▶
translations of you know the the way these things have kind of like it's a game of telephone you
[0:42:55 - 0:43:00] ▶
know and so like now it's written as like you know angel or demon or god or whatever but she was
[0:43:00 - 0:43:05] ▶
going back to the original translations and she was seeing orbs and discs and like all sorts of
[0:43:05 - 0:43:11] ▶
paranormal stuff that really pattern matches to like if you read John Maxx books on abductions or
[0:43:11 - 0:43:16] ▶
whatever or like any of the modern kind of alien stuff like it it was like a one-to-one match
[0:43:16 - 0:43:21] ▶
and so I think a light bulb went off in her head or I think she even sent a lot of this stuff to
[0:43:22 - 0:43:26] ▶
her friend and her friend was like this reads like a Steven Spielberg script like this is great
[0:43:26 - 0:43:29] ▶
this is like really paranormal and a light bulb went off in her head where she was like oh my god
[0:43:29 - 0:43:34] ▶
like maybe this is the same thing that's going on now and you know maybe maybe this this is still
[0:43:34 - 0:43:41] ▶
we're still living in in the reality that the Bible is and that's why I think in some ways the
[0:43:41 - 0:43:46] ▶
whole alien conversation is not subversive in upending of religion it's reinforcing of religion
[0:43:46 - 0:43:52] ▶
you become this biblical literalist and you you actually move from this like garden variety like
[0:43:52 - 0:43:57] ▶
I'm going to go to church because I you know it's a Pascal's wager and I don't want to go to hell
[0:43:57 - 0:44:00] ▶
into like I actually am starting to believe in the metaphysical truth of this and I think our
[0:44:01 - 0:44:07] ▶
the world we live in is actually expanded maybe there are this is this interstitial thing with
[0:44:07 - 0:44:11] ▶
angels and demons and I want to be on the right side of history I want to like lead a good life
[0:44:11 - 0:44:15] ▶
myself and you know not end up you know right in the bad side and I think that's like that's like
[0:44:15 - 0:44:21] ▶
a very powerful profound thing to like think you're like swimming in the soup of good knee but that
[0:44:21 - 0:44:27] ▶
will pop anybody out of their nihilism and I think that's good and reinforcing of yes religion
[0:44:27 - 0:44:33] ▶
do you think like in your whether it's studying tiana or talking to many other people you have
[0:44:33 - 0:44:38] ▶
where this whole you know maybe I'll take a step farther and say maybe even some of like the angel
[0:44:38 - 0:44:44] ▶
and demon stuff that yeah it comes up with it do you think it makes you more open to not necessarily
[0:44:44 - 0:44:50] ▶
like oh this religion's right or something like that but like all right maybe there's maybe I
[0:44:50 - 0:44:56] ▶
should look at some other stuff that I previously wrote off yeah absolutely man yeah well I think
[0:44:56 - 0:45:02] ▶
I think you expand your ontological world it like the more you are I think the way the best way
[0:45:02 - 0:45:10] ▶
to think and I was talking about this with with Danny she hand too and like you know maybe I'm like
[0:45:10 - 0:45:15] ▶
way off on all this stuff so like take this with a grain of salt but like I think the best way to think
[0:45:15 - 0:45:19] ▶
is like be radically open-minded to everything when you hear something don't dismiss it a priori
[0:45:19 - 0:45:26] ▶
you catalog it as low probability and then when you you just look for corroboration for it you look
[0:45:26 - 0:45:31] ▶
for like more and more evidence that it's real and so I think when you do that with like the alien
[0:45:31 - 0:45:36] ▶
thing and you look at you know the all the sort of you know this body of religious evidence and you
[0:45:37 - 0:45:42] ▶
can dismiss the stuff around religion and say you know it's religious in nature so like it's not
[0:45:42 - 0:45:47] ▶
evidence but it's like that's what everybody was like for the last few like few thousand years
[0:45:47 - 0:45:53] ▶
it's like the you know the idea that like they're like over 4,000 like flood myths or whatever
[0:45:53 - 0:45:58] ▶
it looks like there's so many flood and you can like dismiss that out of hand if you're an
[0:45:58 - 0:46:01] ▶
art you know an archaeologist and say Graham Hancock's like an idiot or whatever or you can just
[0:46:01 - 0:46:06] ▶
realize that that was humanity and like those those myths like hold a lot of validity themselves
[0:46:06 - 0:46:12] ▶
and they're historical artifacts they're not just religious artifacts they're also across like every
[0:46:12 - 0:46:17] ▶
they're so desperate they're uncorrelated exactly and so I think I think the more your knowledge
[0:46:17 - 0:46:23] ▶
grows the more the surface area of your knowledge grows and if you think of the surface area as like
[0:46:23 - 0:46:28] ▶
beginning questions like it's like I think you're your your your questions grow at an exponent
[0:46:28 - 0:46:35] ▶
of the knowledge that you know sort of thing and so yeah I think when you when you pull a little
[0:46:35 - 0:46:41] ▶
jangle blocker you know you you find out a thing about you know alternative American history or
[0:46:41 - 0:46:47] ▶
UFOs or whatever it just expands your world to you more and it makes you questions sort of you know
[0:46:47 - 0:46:52] ▶
everything and I really I think healthy way and then you still have to have guardry you still have
[0:46:52 - 0:46:57] ▶
to be like yeah but that's bullshit you know that that involves lazy thinking and is dumb and
[0:46:57 - 0:47:02] ▶
but most people are they're sort of like they don't realize how well epistemically like blocks
[0:47:02 - 0:47:09] ▶
there yes and I think that yeah it would be I don't know it'd be awesome if we could change that
[0:47:09 - 0:47:15] ▶
as a society yeah I don't listen across everything we do communication it would be amazing
[0:47:15 - 0:47:20] ▶
if people could be more like wow that's an interesting idea why how do you arrive at that yeah rather
[0:47:20 - 0:47:24] ▶
than you know just like fuck you or yes yeah but I mean we're talking about the open source stuff
[0:47:24 - 0:47:32] ▶
right yeah the things we can see reading the Bible reading ancient texts that's available to the
[0:47:32 - 0:47:37] ▶
public yeah there is still a power structure that exists across different religions around them
[0:47:37 - 0:47:44] ▶
in the case of say Christianity and more specifically the Catholic Church obviously you have the Vatican
[0:47:44 - 0:47:49] ▶
and you know I used it for six months in my life I lived like a quarter mile from the Vatican
[0:47:49 - 0:47:53] ▶
oh wow and at the time you know it's like wow wow that's awesome didn't have any appreciation for
[0:47:53 - 0:47:59] ▶
thinking about like holy fuck there's some secrets of the universe potentially in there yeah
[0:47:59 - 0:48:04] ▶
but like you know you brought up the council and I see it and everything yeah it's just something
[0:48:04 - 0:48:08] ▶
that I feel like is very under discussed in history but yeah you know that's where say all the
[0:48:08 - 0:48:15] ▶
source data was amalgamated into what we the public will end up being able to have by a very
[0:48:15 - 0:48:21] ▶
powerful few that has continued that tradition all the way through to now where the Vatican is
[0:48:21 - 0:48:26] ▶
a country and has everything and I believe if I'm remembering this correctly in Diana's work
[0:48:26 - 0:48:32] ▶
she like she went to the Vatican archives she went to the Vatican archives and I believe they make
[0:48:32 - 0:48:37] ▶
you sign an NDA and so I think she can't say that much but she consistently in public hints that
[0:48:37 - 0:48:44] ▶
it seems like they understand kind of more about ontological truth and the UFO thing more than meets the
[0:48:44 - 0:48:50] ▶
eye and you even had I mean she talks about this publicly she had this NASA mission controller who
[0:48:51 - 0:48:56] ▶
now I can say his name because he's been doxed by other people Tim Taylor go to the Vatican and have
[0:48:56 - 0:49:05] ▶
this like personal conversion experience and it was I think it was a really trippy experience
[0:49:05 - 0:49:11] ▶
for him where he was like reading through like stuff they had on like Copernicus and other
[0:49:11 - 0:49:15] ▶
and Galileo and in some somehow that reinforced his religiosity like he became a hardcore Catholic
[0:49:15 - 0:49:24] ▶
after that and so like I think you have to ask yourself the question like why does a like kind of
[0:49:24 - 0:49:28] ▶
nuts and bolts like you know NASA mission controller if he's going in there and like looking into
[0:49:28 - 0:49:33] ▶
you know just they're like science records why does that turn him into a hardcore Catholic
[0:49:33 - 0:49:39] ▶
and she talks she documents the actual experience where he has what she would call a hyrophony
[0:49:40 - 0:49:44] ▶
like a real an actual conversion experience like breaks it down into tears and it could have
[0:49:44 - 0:49:48] ▶
just been the spontaneous thing but she hints even in her interview with me that like somehow what he
[0:49:48 - 0:49:55] ▶
was learning scientifically that they had reinforced his religious worldview that was a little more
[0:49:55 - 0:50:01] ▶
kind of like he was going through the motions before that experience and then it it became alive for
[0:50:01 - 0:50:06] ▶
him and I think that's actually common experience for for a lot of people is they have these sort of
[0:50:06 - 0:50:11] ▶
pivotal moments in their life where they just convert and you know like we brought up St. Thomas
[0:50:12 - 0:50:18] ▶
Aquinas I think he was working on like sumo theologica this like rational discourse on Christianity
[0:50:18 - 0:50:24] ▶
this justification for Christianity and in Catholic mass I think he had I don't know if it was a
[0:50:24 - 0:50:30] ▶
UFO experience but some sort of paranormal like felt like he was touched by God and just stop speaking
[0:50:30 - 0:50:36] ▶
and like stop you know I like know the truth or something and like this is all
[0:50:36 - 0:50:41] ▶
you know I can't I can't even evangelize it but it became this like much deeper sort of like true
[0:50:41 - 0:50:47] ▶
knowing no that's actually the root of nosis is the Greek you know or or or or or
[0:50:47 - 0:50:52] ▶
or not stick rather the Greek nosis which is to know but it's to know it's the difference between me
[0:50:52 - 0:50:57] ▶
saying you you know the concept of like a Snickers bar versus like you eating a Snickers bar
[0:50:57 - 0:51:02] ▶
yes and so like knowing God intellectually is very different than you know maybe experiencing God
[0:51:02 - 0:51:09] ▶
and so like I don't know you know I'm I'm probably pre you know having that experience but
[0:51:09 - 0:51:16] ▶
you know I think I think that seems to happen kind of consistently and at least Pasolka relates
[0:51:16 - 0:51:22] ▶
it to the UFO thing well the dirty little secret underlying a guy like what was that guy's name
[0:51:22 - 0:51:27] ▶
Tim Taylor yeah is that right underlying a NASA scientist going and having this conversion to
[0:51:27 - 0:51:33] ▶
Catholicism based on allegedly what he sees I guess in the Vatican archives is that you know we
[0:51:33 - 0:51:38] ▶
've always had this division across human history of science and religion one can't exist without
[0:51:38 - 0:51:44] ▶
the other but they are up they're oil and water they do not coexist like they can't exist without
[0:51:44 - 0:51:49] ▶
each other but they do not coexist well on top of each other when in reality the science is the
[0:51:49 - 0:51:56] ▶
quest to and I'm really being broad right now so don't kill me in the comments but like
[0:51:56 - 0:52:00] ▶
science is like the quest to figure out what we can about our reality and about the universe
[0:52:01 - 0:52:06] ▶
and about the things around us pretty much anything you point out like I was scientifically
[0:52:06 - 0:52:10] ▶
wise this table that way right and religion is the same quest except it more has to do with where we
[0:52:10 - 0:52:17] ▶
came from and where we go when we're out of these bodies these machines were in for 90 years if
[0:52:17 - 0:52:22] ▶
we live a good long life yeah and yet you know you have the famous stories in history we're like
[0:52:22 - 0:52:28] ▶
Galileo gets banned by the church and imprisoned in his home because he has the audacity to talk about
[0:52:28 - 0:52:34] ▶
whatever it was the solar system and things like that and the church is like no no no but does that
[0:52:34 - 0:52:38] ▶
come from the fact that the church knows a lot of this stuff and there's just a power structure
[0:52:38 - 0:52:43] ▶
that wants to stop the masses from knowing it so they hide behind the no this is religion you have
[0:52:43 - 0:52:48] ▶
to have faith when in reality they're operating on a level where they're scientifically aware more
[0:52:48 - 0:52:53] ▶
than anyone else right right or maybe working on behalf of something else I don't know sure but
[0:52:53 - 0:53:00] ▶
yeah yeah totally I don't know you know it's the Vatican was definitely like it's almost like the
[0:53:00 - 0:53:07] ▶
first intel agency or something very like you know yeah hardcore they just yeah they had all the
[0:53:07 - 0:53:18] ▶
you know the knowledge the power and yeah I mean I'm very familiar with like GR donno Bruno like he
[0:53:18 - 0:53:26] ▶
had this sort of like many worlds theory 16th century yeah no I'm not just another another example
[0:53:26 - 0:53:34] ▶
of you know Galileo where he had he had it was almost like the multiverse theory or something but like
[0:53:34 - 0:53:39] ▶
a proto example of that back then and I believe was he he might have been actually like Queen Elizabeth
[0:53:39 - 0:53:48] ▶
um and I think was it was a king for edric maybe a bohemia I think I think
[0:53:49 - 0:53:55] ▶
geordana Bruno might have interfaced with them because I know like like John D and Edward Kelly
[0:53:55 - 0:54:00] ▶
and stuff like a lot of these uh king for edric was seemed to be like kind of a patron of like
[0:54:00 - 0:54:06] ▶
weird science I think geordana Bruno might have interfaced with them and so he had this theory but
[0:54:06 - 0:54:10] ▶
anyways he was burnt at the stake and of course it was yeah yeah yeah it's just kind of kind of classic
[0:54:10 - 0:54:15] ▶
yeah just like joctamel and and Galileo and a whole motley crew of people yeah that's the thing like
[0:54:15 - 0:54:21] ▶
the people with new ideas are the ones they get burned at the stake in history and you just
[0:54:21 - 0:54:26] ▶
that's what just makes me wonder if it's really the opposite of what we think yeah well it's
[0:54:26 - 0:54:29] ▶
like socrates you know it's it's just this consistent sort of trope is this these scapegoating cycles
[0:54:29 - 0:54:34] ▶
where you have power structures that you know if you if you get out of line if you break a kind of
[0:54:34 - 0:54:39] ▶
a prohibition or whatever then you're your scapegoat it's sure yeah I and I mean you we joke about
[0:54:39 - 0:54:46] ▶
the Vatican being the first intel agency but like the governor's there's pretty good holy shit bro
[0:54:46 - 0:54:52] ▶
like it just started the council and I see and work your way through that there was actually a book
[0:54:52 - 0:54:57] ▶
written I think in 2014 called the Vatican bankers by Gerald Posner interesting you ever read that
[0:54:57 - 0:55:03] ▶
no what's the thesis you know he does a really nice job just kind of reporting the history especially
[0:55:03 - 0:55:11] ▶
over the past heavily over the past 150 years or so yeah 200 years of like yo you have this
[0:55:11 - 0:55:19] ▶
religious organization but they're wired into everyone and yes there's a lot of money that floats
[0:55:19 - 0:55:26] ▶
around that because they're a financial arm too and it's like it's the age old thing it doesn't
[0:55:26 - 0:55:31] ▶
matter whether it's religion science fucking you know that white door right there it's always
[0:55:31 - 0:55:36] ▶
follow the money yeah right and I don't know that really made me think more about how naive maybe I
[0:55:36 - 0:55:43] ▶
was about the fact that yeah it's not just like people holding power over people's beliefs or
[0:55:43 - 0:55:50] ▶
something in the world like oh do you believe that America is the modicum of democracy oh do you
[0:55:50 - 0:55:55] ▶
believe that like Jesus Christ was the savior oh do you believe that like Muhammad was the was was
[0:55:55 - 0:55:59] ▶
the real was the prophet of God it it does really unfortunately just tie back to some form of business
[0:55:59 - 0:56:05] ▶
at the end of the day and that's how they even if even if they lead with those ideas there there's
[0:56:05 - 0:56:11] ▶
there's a flow of cashish yeah below it yes and it's cynically that's kind of sad but once I read it
[0:56:12 - 0:56:19] ▶
I was like yeah I should have known this no that's it's clearly like a it's an organization it's a
[0:56:19 - 0:56:24] ▶
power structure that like needs to like protect its own interests yeah so yeah I think and so like
[0:56:24 - 0:56:31] ▶
maybe like the other like cut on what we were just talking about is like circumventing that being
[0:56:31 - 0:56:36] ▶
like no I'm not gonna like join the church I'm gonna like seek on my own yes like me yeah that's
[0:56:36 - 0:56:41] ▶
seen as a sort of a threat in some ways like they need they need to be like a monopoly of yes
[0:56:41 - 0:56:46] ▶
on they need to have a monopoly on truth yeah I love this whole like they can like ex communicate
[0:56:46 - 0:56:51] ▶
someone from the church I'm like yeah so they put like electric fence around your house like what
[0:56:51 - 0:56:55] ▶
do you really doing like at the end of the day me and whoever's upstairs we're gonna have our
[0:56:55 - 0:56:59] ▶
tatted tatted on whether or not I live my life right yeah you know what I mean but it's strange
[0:56:59 - 0:57:03] ▶
that man is like you all it's like it's like Harry Potter like Copernicus yeah like you're
[0:57:03 - 0:57:08] ▶
excommunicated very strange it is strange and that that's a decision that's it's easier said than done
[0:57:08 - 0:57:15] ▶
to say I'm gonna have a you know not a horizontal tether to like uh mankind who like is honestly like
[0:57:15 - 0:57:23] ▶
blaming me for a thing or saying that I'm an outcast for like believing a thing but I'm gonna
[0:57:23 - 0:57:27] ▶
have a vertical tether to God and I'm gonna like care more about just like the moral sanctity of
[0:57:27 - 0:57:32] ▶
like any given to say that's like an extremely hard uh you know position to stake oh yeah and so
[0:57:32 - 0:57:39] ▶
you know I think it's much easier said than not and people get naturally when when when you're
[0:57:39 - 0:57:45] ▶
talking about quite literally the meaning of your life it creates a wall with people where to
[0:57:45 - 0:57:52] ▶
your point earlier it's harder to have an open conversation about it because like this is their
[0:57:52 - 0:57:56] ▶
core belief it's their attitude like how do you break that down the first thing you learn in
[0:57:57 - 0:58:02] ▶
marketing 101 day one of class is like the easiest thing to form and the hardest thing to break is
[0:58:02 - 0:58:07] ▶
a human's attitude now put that in religion then why someone thinks they're here and then try to
[0:58:07 - 0:58:12] ▶
have an educated conversation with them where you're not like attacking it or saying you're wrong
[0:58:12 - 0:58:17] ▶
or something like that but just like oh have you ever thought about this or thought about that
[0:58:17 - 0:58:20] ▶
it's hard to break through yeah for sure totally yeah but you know it's it's interesting that a lot of
[0:58:21 - 0:58:27] ▶
this ufology that's happened has has come back to religion and I think the thing we get lost in all
[0:58:27 - 0:58:35] ▶
the time is that obviously since 2017 when Chris Mellon walked out of the Pentagon and put this
[0:58:35 - 0:58:40] ▶
on the front of the New York Times it's suddenly become a big part of the accepted lexicon to where
[0:58:40 - 0:58:46] ▶
like fucking NBC talks about it yeah yeah like that's strange yeah but like we forget that this is
[0:58:46 - 0:58:52] ▶
these thoughts have always existed throughout human history they've been something that especially
[0:58:52 - 0:58:56] ▶
throughout the 20th century were happening and maybe it was just more taboo to talk about but
[0:58:56 - 0:59:02] ▶
you know you're really good friends with a guy who's like maybe like the most respected name
[0:59:02 - 0:59:10] ▶
in the entire space because he's just like a genius in life and that's Jacques Vallet yeah
[0:59:10 - 0:59:15] ▶
like this isn't new to him he's he's been on the shit fucking five six decades or whatever yeah
[0:59:15 - 0:59:20] ▶
how did you even meet that guy I met him through bringing in people to the like the you know
[0:59:20 - 0:59:27] ▶
Peter's orbit or whatever and then just getting interested in all these like you know subjects kind
[0:59:27 - 0:59:32] ▶
of at the frontier of epistemology and and so ufos is one of those topics and I met him around
[0:59:32 - 0:59:38] ▶
the same time I met like how put off and Gary Nolan and I you know I'd watch close encounters
[0:59:38 - 0:59:44] ▶
the third kind and had known like he had you know it was the the French eccentric character that
[0:59:44 - 0:59:49] ▶
like you know French watcher foe was based on and stuff yeah but you know I yeah other than that
[0:59:49 - 0:59:54] ▶
in his like kind of internet history I didn't know much and then I met him and I was like this
[0:59:54 - 0:59:58] ▶
guy is really not only like incredibly knowledgeable and like I don't know it's when you speak to some
[0:59:58 - 1:00:05] ▶
of these people it's almost like you're you're also pinging off their conviction because he's like
[1:00:05 - 1:00:10] ▶
he's it's so like it's so obvious to him that like because you're when you first meet a guy like
[1:00:10 - 1:00:15] ▶
that you're like you just want to know if the thing's real and he's gone to like hundreds of
[1:00:15 - 1:00:19] ▶
crash sites there's like no there's no like question to him that like this stuff is real and so I
[1:00:19 - 1:00:24] ▶
think you know meeting somebody like that who's also rational thoughtful worked on the earliest
[1:00:24 - 1:00:28] ▶
version of the internet under douging elbert at you know Xerox Park and uh was an astronomer you
[1:00:28 - 1:00:35] ▶
know has some physics background and yeah really smart I venture capital
[1:00:35 - 1:00:40] ▶
list you start to you know think okay like and then you read his books and they're like incredibly
[1:00:40 - 1:00:48] ▶
like he can at times be a little long-winded and speak in these sort of like overly complex ways
[1:00:48 - 1:00:53] ▶
but you read his books in there incredibly well researched like they're just really really good
[1:00:53 - 1:00:57] ▶
um yeah he's he's fascinating he's one of these people where like you spend time with him and
[1:00:58 - 1:01:02] ▶
there's some like osmosis like thing that goes on where I think he like you know expands your
[1:01:02 - 1:01:08] ▶
consciousness just by like being with him I was actually just with him like maybe a month and a
[1:01:08 - 1:01:13] ▶
half ago in Paris and he has he has a spot there and um he was talking about um you know cathedrals
[1:01:13 - 1:01:22] ▶
and how they're built and he was talking about blue stained glass and he just goes he's so knowledgeable
[1:01:22 - 1:01:27] ▶
and uh yeah I mean uh cherish anytime I get with that guy he's amazing yeah he's he's he's
[1:01:28 - 1:01:35] ▶
definitely one of those guys when not that I've been in a room with him but like when you listen
[1:01:35 - 1:01:39] ▶
to him talk so I guess when he walks in the room with you you're like oh this is a different
[1:01:39 - 1:01:43] ▶
level of human yeah yeah yeah yeah but like you you talk about the whole crash retrieval thing
[1:01:43 - 1:01:50] ▶
and then go into these scenes you know one of one of the skeptic arguments which I welcome
[1:01:50 - 1:01:55] ▶
the skeptic arguments and and I try to be a skeptic myself too because I think you really have to
[1:01:55 - 1:01:59] ▶
balance things out but like you know a guy like Michio Kaku yeah I had an episode 145 you know
[1:01:59 - 1:02:05] ▶
do you believe in God well I believe in the God of Einstein he believed in God but not the God
[1:02:07 - 1:02:13] ▶
that intervenes in human affairs it was the God of order the God of simplicity and elegance
[1:02:13 - 1:02:20] ▶
Einstein was asked the question did the universe have a choice is it unique so universe is you
[1:02:20 - 1:02:27] ▶
can create universes in an afternoon but most of them are unstable most of them fall apart most of
[1:02:27 - 1:02:32] ▶
them don't work our universe is stable it works everything fits together and then the question is
[1:02:32 - 1:02:38] ▶
what set off the bang that's what we do for a living we have the big bang theory up to the point
[1:02:38 - 1:02:43] ▶
where the universe is gonna explode why did it explode we think it was a quantum event and we are
[1:02:43 - 1:02:50] ▶
here because we are in the universe we decided to explode so Einstein said was it all an accident
[1:02:50 - 1:02:56] ▶
and he thought no it could not have been an accident he's become very open to this stuff and
[1:02:56 - 1:03:03] ▶
looks at the science of it which is very very cool but he also when it comes to some of the crashes
[1:03:03 - 1:03:09] ▶
and things like that he's like you know why doesn't anyone for the sake of God steal a pen or
[1:03:09 - 1:03:16] ▶
steal a piece of metal or something like that my god you know there's never been physical evidence
[1:03:16 - 1:03:22] ▶
of it so when you get there are bottles to that right and what's the rebuttal Gary Nolan's
[1:03:22 - 1:03:26] ▶
you know Stanford PhD you know tenured professor of you know microbiology up for Nobel you know
[1:03:26 - 1:03:31] ▶
not Nobel nominee every year you know claims to have parts that this is at least like the
[1:03:31 - 1:03:36] ▶
the you know sequence of events right like a UFO is seen in like ubituba Brazil it like explodes
[1:03:36 - 1:03:42] ▶
you know a piece of it is a male to Jacques Vallejoqueville like gives it to Gary Nolan from
[1:03:43 - 1:03:49] ▶
aspect geometry and you know you have isotope ratios of heavy elements that do not exist on earth
[1:03:49 - 1:03:56] ▶
and are completely anomalous in the context of asteroids from other planet so I'm not saying that
[1:03:56 - 1:04:01] ▶
that's a smoking gun there's small pieces have you seen it I've seen them you need more testing
[1:04:01 - 1:04:07] ▶
but I will say that's like a good argument against the cocky thing where it's like there that is a
[1:04:07 - 1:04:14] ▶
thing that that like you meet you cock who's a brilliant strength theorist you know you should go
[1:04:14 - 1:04:20] ▶
check that out and like you know false fire corroborate you know whatever you know talk to talk to
[1:04:20 - 1:04:24] ▶
Gary about that what isn't good but that's the thing what doesn't Gary like walking to Joe Rogan
[1:04:24 - 1:04:30] ▶
studio and put it on the table I think he should I show the pieces in my episode with Gary and I
[1:04:30 - 1:04:36] ▶
was like so fired up that was like one of my first bigger episodes because I was like this is
[1:04:36 - 1:04:40] ▶
gonna be insane like people are gonna freak out of the stand on one it's like way back it's like
[1:04:40 - 1:04:45] ▶
yeah a couple years ago but um yeah I he should I think he should go on Rogan um can we pull that up
[1:04:45 - 1:04:52] ▶
can we pull up Jesse's video with with Gary Nolan do you remember the area where you showed the
[1:04:52 - 1:04:58] ▶
the object yeah it's later in the episode all right and I will disclaim they're small but if you
[1:04:58 - 1:05:03] ▶
just take the what was observed the fact that they're a male to Jacques around that and then you have
[1:05:03 - 1:05:10] ▶
mass spec being done what you know elements with weird isotoperasias I think that is worthy of
[1:05:10 - 1:05:16] ▶
further inquiry oh sure that's what I think a pretty big deal yeah I think James James when he
[1:05:16 - 1:05:23] ▶
was doing moment of contact talked about some of the isotoperasias I believe I hope I'm remembering
[1:05:23 - 1:05:30] ▶
this right I want to say that was like an hour and ten minutes in the episode 139 but he was
[1:05:30 - 1:05:34] ▶
talking about like some of the isotoperasias that were recovered from the soil around there where
[1:05:34 - 1:05:40] ▶
that crash happened in 96 in Virginia so it was a UFO crash site was it let's do a fo crash
[1:05:40 - 1:05:46] ▶
I mean to or a landing site where they crash there's a crash yeah it was like an explosion crash yeah
[1:05:46 - 1:05:51] ▶
okay and so they were testing something with the isotopes and whatever the fuck yeah what did they
[1:05:51 - 1:05:56] ▶
go on what did they find in there without you know going like too complicated like what did they
[1:05:56 - 1:06:01] ▶
find to be able to say like oh this is not a part of our element something to do with elements
[1:06:01 - 1:06:05] ▶
something to do with magnesium isotopes that were a certain ratio that was not found on earth if you
[1:06:05 - 1:06:11] ▶
if you could create it it would be in the billions of dollars and it was 1987 so and it's a you
[1:06:11 - 1:06:19] ▶
know this is a common occurrence that points to not of this earth now if you pulled back in like
[1:06:19 - 1:06:28] ▶
perhaps the wavelength of like Diana Walsh Pasolka yeah you know there there's an argument there
[1:06:28 - 1:06:35] ▶
that if it's like aliens and demons or angels and demons or whatever it doesn't leave behind like
[1:06:35 - 1:06:41] ▶
a metallic physical thing it's more at least behind a physical mark yeah so if we're talking
[1:06:41 - 1:06:45] ▶
about having actual pieces yeah of something like I'll just call it metal for the sake of calling
[1:06:45 - 1:06:50] ▶
metal but it's not necessarily metal yeah like that to me maybe I'm thinking about this way too
[1:06:50 - 1:06:55] ▶
naively that points more towards okay this is another entity an alien a future human something like
[1:06:55 - 1:07:01] ▶
that it's not yeah this is not necessarily something that is biblical in the sense that it's an
[1:07:01 - 1:07:07] ▶
angel where it's a demon yeah you know yeah yeah I don't know I guess we got the pieces up here oh
[1:07:07 - 1:07:13] ▶
we do all right let's take a look at this so the this is magnesium bismuth by the way okay you
[1:07:13 - 1:07:17] ▶
can point that mic right at it and turn that speaker up James thank you brother we got James
[1:07:17 - 1:07:22] ▶
filling in today thank you last minute so shout out to you I appreciate you all right let's hit
[1:07:22 - 1:07:28] ▶
play there's all of the anomalies about the pieces of magnesium coming from Huba tuba but what about
[1:07:28 - 1:07:34] ▶
the other sample on the table those are pieces of bismuth Nolan actually couldn't recall how it was
[1:07:34 - 1:07:39] ▶
procured so we had to call how put off to get the full scoop hi how he was first a laser physicist
[1:07:39 - 1:07:51] ▶
and then out of Stanford Research Institute he started the government's psychic spy program since
[1:07:51 - 1:07:57] ▶
then he's been doing frontier tech research in his briefed multiple presidents on UFOs so do you
[1:07:57 - 1:08:03] ▶
know the original story of how it was kind of procured initially the story was sent anonymously by
[1:08:03 - 1:08:11] ▶
someone claiming to be an army officer long story short this army officer was going through his
[1:08:11 - 1:08:17] ▶
grandfather's archives when he found this rare sample and then written in the diary was that it was
[1:08:17 - 1:08:23] ▶
a piece from uh Roger true or not these thin layers of bismuth magnesium are very hard to reproduce
[1:08:23 - 1:08:32] ▶
how claims that they even have the properties to micro size waveguides for tear rehearsal its
[1:08:32 - 1:08:37] ▶
frequencies it turns out that it reduces the size of the required uh microwave for tear
[1:08:37 - 1:08:44] ▶
frequencies down to about one thirty of the void like which is which is amazing so it means you can
[1:08:44 - 1:08:51] ▶
basically put thirty waveguides in the volume of a single waveguides at tear rehearsal frequency
[1:08:51 - 1:08:57] ▶
so I'd it thanks a lot how really appreciate it what can you do with tear rehearsal that we can't
[1:08:57 - 1:09:03] ▶
with right yeah let's let's do it just more that's nuts yeah so you have little pieces I mean obviously
[1:09:03 - 1:09:10] ▶
they're when you visually anticlimactic but if you look at the fact pattern you know it's that's
[1:09:10 - 1:09:15] ▶
worthy of investigation you have a guy of you know Nolan's caliber looking into it now why doesn't
[1:09:15 - 1:09:21] ▶
Nolan let more of a skeptical guy just about that you know maybe UFOs have been sure crash like
[1:09:22 - 1:09:28] ▶
Brian Keating come in there and test it because like I think if I wanted to be a cynic I could be
[1:09:28 - 1:09:33] ▶
like he's sitting there with you know some piece of metal going man bear pick sure sure sure right sure
[1:09:33 - 1:09:38] ▶
I don't sounds like you've seen it and that's not what it is but like I mean I haven't personally
[1:09:38 - 1:09:43] ▶
done mass spec so I am going on his word there and I have to you know full full disclosure like I
[1:09:43 - 1:09:48] ▶
don't know for sure that the I sit I can't see the thing and be like the isotope ratios are you know
[1:09:48 - 1:09:54] ▶
right strontium whatever you know um so yeah I think he should I think he should I think we should
[1:09:54 - 1:09:59] ▶
just like investigate we should fund it we should investigate more of this and and uh you know
[1:09:59 - 1:10:04] ▶
it should flip either way it should be you know this is you know definitely not ours or uh you know
[1:10:04 - 1:10:09] ▶
this is uh this is this crazy mind blowing thing that changes everything why do you think guys like
[1:10:09 - 1:10:16] ▶
who maybe have handled this like you said like Fale Jacques Fale and and Gary Nolan haven't
[1:10:16 - 1:10:23] ▶
necessarily done that yet meaning let in outside scientists to come take a look at Gary uh I don't
[1:10:23 - 1:10:30] ▶
want to say too much but I know that Gary is actively like trying to get more of a smoking gun
[1:10:30 - 1:10:34] ▶
that it's alien and I he has some really interesting ideas around that so uh yeah he he is doing it
[1:10:34 - 1:10:41] ▶
okay yeah yeah he did a lot of work with like the basal ganglia stuff right uh huh yeah back to me
[1:10:41 - 1:10:47] ▶
what what was that again the this little part of the basal ganglia and the dorsal straight um
[1:10:47 - 1:10:52] ▶
called the cate nucleus and the pataymon which he claims is like the almost like psychic center uh
[1:10:52 - 1:10:58] ▶
where the neuronal density in that area almost allows somebody to see more UFOs like the more neuronal
[1:10:58 - 1:11:05] ▶
density you have in that area the more you can somehow see UFOs and also they hooked up an FMRI
[1:11:05 - 1:11:11] ▶
to uh people playing go and the more uh that that area of the brain lights up like the person when
[1:11:11 - 1:11:19] ▶
a person makes a brilliant move and go which is a counterintuitive move it's a move that doesn't make
[1:11:19 - 1:11:23] ▶
any sense actually as an incremental go forward move against the player given where the pieces
[1:11:23 - 1:11:28] ▶
it only makes sense in the context of the end point of the game so it's almost like a psychic
[1:11:29 - 1:11:33] ▶
knowledge of the future that's like causing you to like make this very counterintuitive move
[1:11:33 - 1:11:38] ▶
that part of the brain lights up in an FMR FMR I tracks blood flow and so uh I think it's like
[1:11:39 - 1:11:46] ▶
this really interesting part of the brain that also we have to go like way deeper on my one like
[1:11:46 - 1:11:51] ▶
weird theoretical model that I would you know kind of apply to it possibly is you know there's
[1:11:51 - 1:11:56] ▶
this idea that like the brain could be like a quantum a room temperature quantum system
[1:11:56 - 1:12:00] ▶
so you have like Roger Penrose wrote like the emperors in your mind and you know uh I guess that
[1:12:00 - 1:12:05] ▶
was his follow up with Stewart Hammer off the Sanesthesiologist and it was this idea that like the
[1:12:05 - 1:12:09] ▶
micro tubules like you know are like really important for the collapse of the wave function
[1:12:09 - 1:12:13] ▶
and because it is this important question like why do we see like macroscopic discrete reality
[1:12:14 - 1:12:19] ▶
versus kind of the subatomic probabilistic reality like why do we just the English
[1:12:19 - 1:12:24] ▶
so so so that's it and here not in my head like I understand absolutely not
[1:12:26 - 1:12:30] ▶
ah so so so so so Gary so it's been shown that there is hypothesized to be temporal nonlocality
[1:12:30 - 1:12:41] ▶
in quantum systems so like you can run like a double slit slid experiment in the future
[1:12:41 - 1:12:46] ▶
and you're running it with an entangled photon from the past and it feels like the future
[1:12:46 - 1:12:52] ▶
measurement is actually affecting the past and that that's an interpretation that's not for sure
[1:12:52 - 1:12:58] ▶
true but like there are people who are working on quantum computers right now who hypothesize that
[1:12:58 - 1:13:03] ▶
a working quantum computer which we don't have because the bottleneck is keeping the chips coherent
[1:13:03 - 1:13:08] ▶
can send information back in time as long as the quantum computer is on and so if the brain is a
[1:13:08 - 1:13:15] ▶
quantum computer or a part of it is maybe it's a classical quantum hybrid whatever then maybe there
[1:13:15 - 1:13:21] ▶
is a part of the brain that actually glitches into the future and sends shards or traces of
[1:13:21 - 1:13:26] ▶
information back in time explaining these sort of counterintuitive moves explaining the greater
[1:13:26 - 1:13:32] ▶
preponderance of UFO sightings if UFOs actually have more to do with time than space which is my
[1:13:32 - 1:13:38] ▶
belief can you explain upon that yeah I think it's this well first of all I think it's a false
[1:13:38 - 1:13:43] ▶
dichotomy right like you can't get to like proximate centauri b or whatever you know with with
[1:13:43 - 1:13:49] ▶
nuclear thermal propulsion with chemical combustion it takes you 80,000 years multiple lifetime so
[1:13:49 - 1:13:54] ▶
that doesn't work for like biological mass as we know it and we're seeing things that seem to
[1:13:54 - 1:13:59] ▶
look kind of like us and then you speed that up with nuclear thermal propulsion by maybe 2x so
[1:13:59 - 1:14:04] ▶
that's 40,000 years still totally unworkable so you kind of need some version of space time metric
[1:14:04 - 1:14:09] ▶
engineering which is time travel that is time travel to get real space travel that's interstellar
[1:14:09 - 1:14:16] ▶
yes and so I think it's this false dichotomy but then you look at the actual observables of the alien
[1:14:16 - 1:14:22] ▶
thing and they're these little gray men and like you look at any UFO database or like close encounters
[1:14:22 - 1:14:28] ▶
of the third kind database like the Edgar Mitchell Foundation has you know this this database of I
[1:14:28 - 1:14:32] ▶
think it's only 5, 6,000 cases which is a problem we need bigger databases but you look at any of
[1:14:32 - 1:14:37] ▶
these databases around or over 50% of the cases involve literally like hominid creatures so the
[1:14:37 - 1:14:45] ▶
likelihood that you're seeing a thing from a random foreign planet that's evolutionary converged
[1:14:45 - 1:14:51] ▶
so like be this hominid sentient advanced technological thing that like looks like us makes no sense
[1:14:51 - 1:14:58] ▶
and then you layer on top of that the fact that like gray aliens look like what any evolutionary
[1:14:58 - 1:15:03] ▶
biologist would probably predict we are going to evolve into you know their ears and noses because
[1:15:03 - 1:15:09] ▶
we're not hunter gathering anymore have they've become the stigil for us and so they're being
[1:15:09 - 1:15:13] ▶
selected against our eyes are being selected for more screen time they have slit like eyes our brains
[1:15:13 - 1:15:18] ▶
are being selected for decision making is becoming far more important our bodies and strength are
[1:15:18 - 1:15:22] ▶
becoming less important they're kind of sinew e you know like week whatever the idea that like these
[1:15:22 - 1:15:28] ▶
things would look like what we're moving towards and be from a totally random planet makes no
[1:15:28 - 1:15:34] ▶
sense and then you can get into like you know weird physics models that are like honestly a little
[1:15:34 - 1:15:39] ▶
above my pay grade but like this you know idea of like tippler discs and like you know
[1:15:39 - 1:15:43] ▶
tippler discs yeah so you had like Gidele had this like you know you know Kirk Gidele had this
[1:15:43 - 1:15:48] ▶
idea of like time travel you know in the early 20th century and then you had this guy Frank
[1:15:48 - 1:15:53] ▶
tippler who was like later in the 20th century and he Gidele's whole thing was like you could time
[1:15:53 - 1:15:59] ▶
travel but like you'd have to like basically like travel like an extremely long distance and like
[1:15:59 - 1:16:05] ▶
it's it's like in effect like works but like it doesn't really like like it's it's totally
[1:16:05 - 1:16:09] ▶
theoretical it's like impossible and then tippler had and again this is a little above my pay grade
[1:16:09 - 1:16:13] ▶
but tippler had this idea of like shrinking that down to literally a disc which is hilarious
[1:16:13 - 1:16:18] ▶
because like that's what we describe UFOs as and so I think the real guy you should speak to about
[1:16:18 - 1:16:23] ▶
this is guy named Mike masters who wait that sounds very familiar he's awesome in he wrote a book
[1:16:23 - 1:16:28] ▶
called identified flying objects and another one called extra tempestrioles and it's these two books
[1:16:28 - 1:16:35] ▶
that they're the best theory UFO books since Jacques Vallet and in some ways they're like even better
[1:16:35 - 1:16:41] ▶
than some of the Jacques the Jacques stuff's amazing and set the foundation but masters really has it
[1:16:41 - 1:16:47] ▶
in actual theory which is these are humans from the future and does he think does he have any I
[1:16:47 - 1:16:52] ▶
explanation of how far maybe he doesn't but he goes to like the actual accounts he goes through like
[1:16:53 - 1:16:59] ▶
a bunch of accounts and I'm telling you man for every single one that say they're from Zeta
[1:16:59 - 1:17:03] ▶
Reticuli Proximus and Tari or like random other you know solar systems uh or you know galaxies
[1:17:03 - 1:17:10] ▶
whatever uh uh they also say like we're from the future and and that is that is a consistent
[1:17:10 - 1:17:17] ▶
trope like a Jim peniston the uh rendelstrom forest case 1980 like he was like you know the 8,000
[1:17:17 - 1:17:23] ▶
years in the future like with that's what the you know aliens said that they were they were from in
[1:17:23 - 1:17:27] ▶
many cases people have to do chemical rinses they don't infect the future with the foreign pathogen
[1:17:27 - 1:17:32] ▶
there's some weird non to non interference principle where there's lost time maybe that's because
[1:17:32 - 1:17:38] ▶
you have these weird butterfly effects where like you know there has to be lost time or something
[1:17:38 - 1:17:43] ▶
and so I don't know if it's from the where I might disagree with masters is like I don't know
[1:17:43 - 1:17:47] ▶
if it's from the future it could be some like extra temporal layer on top of reality like
[1:17:47 - 1:17:53] ▶
whoever these entities are might have actually figured out some sort of time editing or time travel
[1:17:54 - 1:18:00] ▶
and they might be living like outside of our time bound kind of you know 3d world that where like
[1:18:00 - 1:18:06] ▶
you have zeno's arrow of time you know where like it's you're like moving in this river that's
[1:18:06 - 1:18:10] ▶
like endlessly moving forward yeah now you're on it yeah so I and I don't know but like that
[1:18:10 - 1:18:15] ▶
would be I would speculate that is if you're just using scientific inductive thinking and principles
[1:18:15 - 1:18:21] ▶
that is the Occamiseraser explanation for this it's not you you're just making up like extra terrestrial
[1:18:21 - 1:18:26] ▶
so I mean you're not making it up they're like Betty and Barney Hill as they said they're from zeta
[1:18:26 - 1:18:30] ▶
particular you have like cases where they say they're from other planets you have plenty of those
[1:18:30 - 1:18:35] ▶
but for every one of those you have again one that says you know we're time travelers and then
[1:18:35 - 1:18:40] ▶
you have look at the actual observables and got it looks a lot more like time travelers to me than
[1:18:40 - 1:18:44] ▶
space travelers yeah I tend to I don't know if it's because it it's the most interesting one to
[1:18:45 - 1:18:52] ▶
me and it biases me but that's where my mind ends up always going we get to the future humans argument
[1:18:52 - 1:18:58] ▶
now Michio Kaku actually makes a in my very humble opinion a great theoretical argument about time
[1:18:58 - 1:19:07] ▶
travel where he talks about the tributaries of time and effectively this is this is like a
[1:19:07 - 1:19:13] ▶
infinitesimal or infinite I guess like multi-dimensional theory where you talk about the butterfly
[1:19:14 - 1:19:22] ▶
effect where a butterfly literally flaps its wings and that can change an entire trajectory you
[1:19:22 - 1:19:27] ▶
have that happening at every single level of every single thing that ever happens including what
[1:19:27 - 1:19:30] ▶
happens in this room right now so at a high level example for a minute he always points to say
[1:19:30 - 1:19:35] ▶
April 14 1865 at the Ford theater when Abraham Lincoln gets killed if you as a human right now for
[1:19:35 - 1:19:42] ▶
some reason had time travel and could go back and you went there and you fucking oozzy john
[1:19:42 - 1:19:48] ▶
john mook's booth in the head before he can do it what he explains and this makes sense to me
[1:19:48 - 1:19:53] ▶
is that that does not change the reality of the time you're in it changes another version of that
[1:19:53 - 1:19:59] ▶
reality that now exists in its own dimension like the transistor radio is turned on another part
[1:19:59 - 1:20:04] ▶
it forks right and so you change that so when we get to the argument I guess maybe maybe what
[1:20:04 - 1:20:09] ▶
masters was saying I'm not sure if he was saying or what other people were based on what you were
[1:20:09 - 1:20:13] ▶
going through there because there was a lot but like when we get to that argument of like okay the
[1:20:13 - 1:20:18] ▶
future humans are coming here to then work with us in some ways and not I forget what term you
[1:20:18 - 1:20:25] ▶
use but not do certain things so they fuck up their future well I'm not so sure that would be
[1:20:25 - 1:20:30] ▶
possible to fuck up their future it's more like they're experimenting for another version of their
[1:20:30 - 1:20:35] ▶
future yeah or maybe their future is fucked and they have to come back and like try to reset the
[1:20:35 - 1:20:40] ▶
thing or like yeah move there another dimension yeah sure okay yeah yeah me I I don't you know
[1:20:40 - 1:20:46] ▶
this this all is like really speculative kind of not even wrong unfaulstifiable stuff but
[1:20:46 - 1:20:51] ▶
yeah maybe it's some sort of multiverse branching or forking thing where like you can go back
[1:20:52 - 1:20:57] ▶
to a pivotal moment and then fork things in another direction and I I don't know but I mean the
[1:20:57 - 1:21:03] ▶
nuclear connection would also point to that by the way you took the words you and I are same wavelength
[1:21:03 - 1:21:08] ▶
there's something going on here that basal ganglia is reacting up yeah you took the words out of my
[1:21:08 - 1:21:13] ▶
mouth because that there's two patterns here that we're not talking about one of them you just
[1:21:13 - 1:21:17] ▶
brought up yeah specifically in the 20th century since World War II on the one hand exactly what
[1:21:17 - 1:21:23] ▶
you just said we have a strange connection since the Manhattan Project yeah of UFOs being spotted
[1:21:23 - 1:21:31] ▶
around nuclear sites where it's like you know that old Bob Salis line it's like they're taking matches
[1:21:31 - 1:21:36] ▶
out of the hand of a baby and saying no no don't do that yeah right and I think I've heard you say
[1:21:36 - 1:21:42] ▶
this before but it's also fascinating that so many of these things are happening where it's the
[1:21:42 - 1:21:47] ▶
highest level military people who are citing it who quite literally are so tested that if they take
[1:21:47 - 1:21:53] ▶
ibuprofen yeah they got to report that so when you talk about sober people seeing this shit yeah
[1:21:53 - 1:21:59] ▶
like you're not getting more sober than the dudes on these bases yeah and yet they report a lot of
[1:21:59 - 1:22:03] ▶
the same things the the alleged UFOs start fucking with the nuclear codes and shit like that yeah
[1:22:03 - 1:22:09] ▶
and in the middle of all this yeah since World War II when when James Fox went on Joe Rogan in
[1:22:09 - 1:22:14] ▶
April 2023 he did this unbelievable like 25 minutes just riff yeah of all the history of UFOs since World
[1:22:14 - 1:22:23] ▶
War II that was just like holy shit like he's so into it and understands it so many of these
[1:22:23 - 1:22:28] ▶
sightings you kind of point this out a few minutes ago they're they're in all different parts of
[1:22:28 - 1:22:32] ▶
the world yeah we're talking pre-internet before people could get in chat rooms and plan out
[1:22:32 - 1:22:36] ▶
hoaxes together and ship in different countries kids adults everything in between and it's not
[1:22:36 - 1:22:42] ▶
all the same but there are a lot of the same themes you know the telepathy you described how
[1:22:42 - 1:22:47] ▶
these little grey men look and evolutionary what that could be and when I put into account say
[1:22:47 - 1:22:53] ▶
with one example this imbob way case where allegedly telepathically the aliens said to the kids
[1:22:54 - 1:23:01] ▶
I forget what exactly it was but it was like be careful technology yeah could lead you down the
[1:23:01 - 1:23:06] ▶
wrong way you can destroy yourselves and you're destroying the environment it was very
[1:23:06 - 1:23:09] ▶
environmental yeah they're telling and and somewhere at home the conspiracy theories are being like
[1:23:09 - 1:23:13] ▶
god damn our goal plant that one yeah hey guys if you have a second please be sure to share this
[1:23:13 - 1:23:19] ▶
episode around on social media and with your friends whether it's Reddit Instagram Facebook
[1:23:19 - 1:23:25] ▶
Twitter doesn't matter it's all a huge help it gets new eyeballs on the show and it allows us to
[1:23:25 - 1:23:30] ▶
grow and survive so thank you to all of you who have already been doing that and thank you to all
[1:23:30 - 1:23:35] ▶
of you who are gonna do so now but like you see the point they're they're like concerned and they're
[1:23:35 - 1:23:40] ▶
concerned at the same time where we have the power of the nuke yeah and the atom bomb in our hands
[1:23:40 - 1:23:45] ▶
and it's not like obviously we we've been talking about history today this stuff goes all the way back
[1:23:45 - 1:23:49] ▶
it's not like it started a world war two but it very clearly got some themes both in civilians who
[1:23:49 - 1:23:56] ▶
witness things that had a similarity that could point to future humans and to I don't know
[1:23:56 - 1:24:01] ▶
potentially future humans being here to say no no no don't do that you're gonna fuck up all
[1:24:01 - 1:24:06] ▶
these other dimensions if you do that like do you think that that part of it say the nuclear part
[1:24:06 - 1:24:12] ▶
and the sighting since world war two are more of an argument towards the future human side of it
[1:24:12 - 1:24:18] ▶
I do yeah because like Jalen Heineck who's an astronomer who ran the like air forces front facing
[1:24:19 - 1:24:26] ▶
program called blue book yeah which was like meant to explain away all the you know the UFO stuff
[1:24:26 - 1:24:31] ▶
kind of rationalized dismiss all this stuff out of hand and then he kind of became reformed
[1:24:31 - 1:24:36] ▶
afterwards and was like actually you know I played a big part in the cover up in my orders were to
[1:24:36 - 1:24:40] ▶
kind of diminish this his son Paul Heineck actually had this like very interesting line which is
[1:24:40 - 1:24:46] ▶
like why would they care and I think in some ways they'd care you know like you have like the
[1:24:46 - 1:24:51] ▶
Rogan always says like we're like chimps with nuke and so it's like you know that we are kind of
[1:24:51 - 1:24:55] ▶
interesting in some ways but maybe not to the extent of like trying to change timelines and like
[1:24:55 - 1:25:01] ▶
ensure the sustenance of future timelines and I'm not saying that's definitely what's happening but
[1:25:01 - 1:25:05] ▶
if you were to do that you would definitely really you would really care about our nuclear assets
[1:25:05 - 1:25:09] ▶
like that would be the thing that would be the Archimedes lever the point of most leverage if you
[1:25:09 - 1:25:13] ▶
will where you can you can affect that you kind of affect everything you know if you can stop the
[1:25:13 - 1:25:18] ▶
you know the Cuban missile crisis if there's some alternative timeline where like that happens
[1:25:18 - 1:25:22] ▶
you know that's where you would like jump in yes and so this stuff does just consistently show up
[1:25:22 - 1:25:28] ▶
around around nuclear so yeah that I think that's like a good one really good explanation for it
[1:25:28 - 1:25:35] ▶
but also if like I don't know the world is like a gas station for like factions of aliens and like
[1:25:36 - 1:25:42] ▶
they're mining us for resources like that's another possible you know explanation for where they
[1:25:42 - 1:25:47] ▶
just don't want us to blow ourselves up because you know again they're like extracting us for like
[1:25:47 - 1:25:51] ▶
other stuff it's it's hard to say I don't know but I do think the time travel hypothesis doesn't get
[1:25:51 - 1:26:00] ▶
as much airtime as it deserves like the extraterrestrial thing just seems like it was kind of
[1:26:00 - 1:26:04] ▶
foisted on us at some point and yeah I'm not I'm not I'm not at all sure I think you have to
[1:26:05 - 1:26:10] ▶
kind of question all your assumptions when it comes to this stuff you can't take anything kind
[1:26:10 - 1:26:14] ▶
of it face value and that the ET thing was really kind of like HG Wells were of the worlds into like
[1:26:14 - 1:26:20] ▶
50s movies like invasion of the body snatchers and that sort of thing up until you know
[1:26:20 - 1:26:25] ▶
alien versus predator and like to an independent state and stuff but like yeah that's kind of like
[1:26:25 - 1:26:30] ▶
the meme sphere we've been given but if you like actually look at it scientifically and just
[1:26:30 - 1:26:34] ▶
use first principles logic I think the time travel thing is like you know this incredibly important
[1:26:34 - 1:26:40] ▶
component of this and then there's like the idea that you know gravity and time are super
[1:26:40 - 1:26:45] ▶
related you know in general relativity as well and so like maybe maybe you know gravity itself
[1:26:45 - 1:26:50] ▶
is sort of very anomalous like I'd say like gravity and time are like I'm not you know again at all
[1:26:50 - 1:26:56] ▶
a physics you know I'm not sure I should have talking like one well I'm definitely not but I just
[1:26:56 - 1:27:01] ▶
think like like if you're just like zoom out and like I do think in some ways experts can like not
[1:27:01 - 1:27:07] ▶
see the forest for the trees sometimes so like that's where I maybe can play a small role where it's
[1:27:07 - 1:27:12] ▶
like with you know gravity and time like gravity take gravity for example like you can't reconcile
[1:27:12 - 1:27:19] ▶
it with the other you know forces like gravity breaks down at subatomic levels right like it's like
[1:27:19 - 1:27:24] ▶
why don't like electrons exhibit gravity it doesn't it doesn't make sense and so like you know in
[1:27:24 - 1:27:29] ▶
in in the quantum world like gravity does not make sense and then you could say like in GR you know
[1:27:29 - 1:27:34] ▶
in general relativity like gravity makes sense but even like macroscopically like like or cosmologically
[1:27:34 - 1:27:40] ▶
rather like you need dark matter to like justify gravity's weakness and like dark matters like
[1:27:40 - 1:27:45] ▶
maybe indirectly and detectable at best but like not really detectable like it's kind of seems
[1:27:45 - 1:27:50] ▶
like this like mathematical placeholder and then gravity is like orders of magnitude weaker than
[1:27:50 - 1:27:55] ▶
the other three forces so like I think it's a mathematical it's like curve fitting math to like
[1:27:55 - 1:28:00] ▶
make everything work it's like to explain like planetary orbits like it's like you have gravity
[1:28:00 - 1:28:06] ▶
and then like it doesn't make sense on a subatomic level actually the quantum stuff is like
[1:28:07 - 1:28:10] ▶
way more useful than like GR when it comes to like building actual tech so maybe there's
[1:28:10 - 1:28:15] ▶
something more ontologically true actually about the quantum stuff and gravity doesn't really make
[1:28:15 - 1:28:19] ▶
sense in either context in some ways and then I would say like time is also weird like you have
[1:28:19 - 1:28:24] ▶
time dilation and relativity you know you're explaining time dilation of people who don't understand
[1:28:24 - 1:28:29] ▶
time you know is dependent on the observer so if you're moving like way faster if you're moving
[1:28:30 - 1:28:36] ▶
the you know faster as close as you can to the speed of light or whatever you're actually like aging
[1:28:36 - 1:28:42] ▶
slower so this is like the twin paradox which is you know that's that's kind of weird right and then
[1:28:42 - 1:28:47] ▶
like I'm pretty sure like in quantum stuff time is mostly taken for granted or like at best it's
[1:28:47 - 1:28:54] ▶
like you can measure it in terms of like oscillations of like an electromagnetic wave but like you
[1:28:54 - 1:29:00] ▶
look at like Schrodinger's equation it's just like over time the potential energy plus the
[1:29:00 - 1:29:04] ▶
kinetic energy equals the total energy of a system or whatever but it's time is this weird thing
[1:29:04 - 1:29:11] ▶
and like I think we learned to wit in the early fifties came up with this idea that maybe time
[1:29:11 - 1:29:17] ▶
is actually emergent and it's not fundamental and which means it's not this like fundamental it's
[1:29:17 - 1:29:23] ▶
not this fundamentally it's it's based on measurement you know from the observer it's not it's not
[1:29:23 - 1:29:29] ▶
this fundamentally moving thing that's like outside of you know the the observers measurement and so
[1:29:29 - 1:29:37] ▶
I think in the math by the way is going to be totally above my but like I think we we take time
[1:29:37 - 1:29:43] ▶
for granted like time is the most used now in the English language and if you were to try to
[1:29:43 - 1:29:49] ▶
define it without respect to like the movement of bodies or whatever like the movement of macroscopic
[1:29:49 - 1:29:55] ▶
objects or without using the word time you'd have a really hard time no pun intended you it would
[1:29:55 - 1:30:02] ▶
be really hard for you to do and so and it actually pre like mechanical clocks like in like medieval
[1:30:02 - 1:30:08] ▶
periods and prior it was like this very embodied thing and so like I actually think epistemologically
[1:30:08 - 1:30:14] ▶
like we say like time flies when you're having fun or like it slows like also probably when you're
[1:30:14 - 1:30:19] ▶
having like a great time like it feels like you're in this like time vortex right and so I think time
[1:30:19 - 1:30:24] ▶
is just this very very weird thing that we don't understand and like just like you have Newton's
[1:30:24 - 1:30:30] ▶
theory that was kind of couched within Einstein's theory which came later um
[1:30:31 - 1:30:36] ▶
it you can you can place Newton inside of Einstein who's to say that like Schrodinger's equation
[1:30:37 - 1:30:43] ▶
isn't an effective equation that's placed inside of some larger equation in which time is
[1:30:44 - 1:30:50] ▶
you know the Archimedes lever that that causes superpositionality and position to momentum
[1:30:50 - 1:30:55] ▶
if that makes sense so like so like uh uh James looking at me like
[1:30:56 - 1:31:00] ▶
you out too i mean it's it's it's it all sounds like kind of crazy but it's like like you have this
[1:31:00 - 1:31:06] ▶
you know this wave equation you have like coordinates of like position and momentum
[1:31:06 - 1:31:11] ▶
like why wouldn't you maybe maybe you could have coordinates of actual time and time is
[1:31:12 - 1:31:16] ▶
like does it make sense that position that like an electron would be like super positional as far
[1:31:16 - 1:31:21] ▶
as like it's position or momentum doesn't make sense it doesn't make any sense like in terms of
[1:31:21 - 1:31:26] ▶
like the ontological truth and that's why you had all these debates between the Copenhagen
[1:31:26 - 1:31:29] ▶
school and Einstein you know around like does this matter for ontological truth or what you
[1:31:29 - 1:31:34] ▶
know how do you interpret the quantum stuff like this you know Einstein's like this can't be like
[1:31:34 - 1:31:38] ▶
we need an explanation for this um and so i all i'm saying is like i think time could be this really
[1:31:38 - 1:31:44] ▶
interesting place to look gravity could be this really interesting place to look as far as like
[1:31:44 - 1:31:48] ▶
where we're off and it's why you know like you have wine's air quenstein like criticizing like
[1:31:48 - 1:31:53] ▶
string theory to know end yeah and it's because of this like study of quantum gravity this
[1:31:54 - 1:32:00] ▶
trying to like locate gravity in the quantum and getting lost in this like crazy abstract math in
[1:32:00 - 1:32:06] ▶
the form of string theory and so yeah i think i think if you're if you're trying to make like
[1:32:06 - 1:32:12] ▶
actual inroads in physics you'd look at those two things you look at time and look at gravity
[1:32:12 - 1:32:15] ▶
i think i it's amazing explanation i understood about half of it but i think
[1:32:17 - 1:32:23] ▶
the guy understood about half of it too you're like well feral in old school like
[1:32:23 - 1:32:28] ▶
i don't have enough there i blacked out literally yeah but i when when you when you hear house
[1:32:28 - 1:32:34] ▶
string theory theoretically is explained it makes a ton of sense obviously the criticism is that
[1:32:34 - 1:32:41] ▶
it hasn't shipped a product yet and it's been around for 50 odd years or so and i think Eric is
[1:32:41 - 1:32:49] ▶
perhaps raising an important question just for like science as a community of like hey
[1:32:49 - 1:32:55] ▶
why is there a little bit of a of a of a of a moat around the around the castle here where we
[1:32:56 - 1:33:04] ▶
can't talk about whether or not there's actually something really below string theory that explains
[1:33:04 - 1:33:10] ▶
it more or the idea could be wrong right string theory makes no sense to me as an
[1:33:10 - 1:33:15] ▶
dynamic as an approach philosophically it's like it's like you know when people are like you know
[1:33:15 - 1:33:20] ▶
cova didn't come from a lab or whatever and i'm like well what do you mean and they're like or if
[1:33:20 - 1:33:25] ▶
they say like you know gain a function research it's like super super valuable like we needed to do
[1:33:25 - 1:33:30] ▶
it or something and then you're like when has there ever been a case where you've been get where
[1:33:30 - 1:33:35] ▶
you know the world is engaged in gain a function research where they've come up with a cure
[1:33:35 - 1:33:38] ▶
because you figured out some pathogen in a lab setting like we're motivated by like millions of
[1:33:39 - 1:33:43] ▶
people dying uh and now and you know cova's out and we can't come up with a cure now and so
[1:33:43 - 1:33:50] ▶
i think the way i would analogize that like i think that's just like it's just like bad thinking
[1:33:50 - 1:33:54] ▶
i think this is bad thinking because it's like you have two things you have quantum field theory
[1:33:54 - 1:33:59] ▶
and you have general relativity and like when have we ever had two theories in the past where like
[1:33:59 - 1:34:08] ▶
they involve a lot of like abstract math and like equations and we try to like mash together
[1:34:08 - 1:34:13] ▶
like we try to like i think like science is only it's not it's the map it's not the territory
[1:34:13 - 1:34:20] ▶
right science is useful in that you can create technology out of it and you can predict things from
[1:34:20 - 1:34:26] ▶
it and i i don't know like you can't really come up with a third thing like maybe you can come
[1:34:26 - 1:34:29] ▶
up with a third thing but that's my that's my heuristic for like good science it does not it does
[1:34:29 - 1:34:34] ▶
not reflect ontological truth it's it's really i think it's true in so far as it is useful so i'd
[1:34:34 - 1:34:40] ▶
say like the quantum stuff feels more true and then that you know cause cosmology stuff because that
[1:34:40 - 1:34:45] ▶
just feels like all this patchwork we've built up that's again it's like very human kind of
[1:34:45 - 1:34:50] ▶
curve-fitted math or whatever and so so you have two maps right like strength theory is like
[1:34:50 - 1:34:56] ▶
jamming the maps together like like like like like the maps themselves are not again it's not the
[1:34:56 - 1:35:02] ▶
territory you could like if you somehow had like we're able to trace the territory you could create
[1:35:02 - 1:35:07] ▶
you know this perfect map but you don't you have these two really bad maps or not really bad but
[1:35:07 - 1:35:12] ▶
like imperfect like human-based you know maps and you're just jamming them together and that does
[1:35:12 - 1:35:18] ▶
not make sense philosophically to me if that makes sense like i think you have to like go down the
[1:35:18 - 1:35:22] ▶
tree trunk and like find another brand like look for like other like off ramps and like i i think
[1:35:22 - 1:35:27] ▶
i think there's something around i don't know they're the the the territory you often get into
[1:35:28 - 1:35:33] ▶
with the ufo thing is like electromagnetism being somehow like really really fundamental and
[1:35:33 - 1:35:37] ▶
really important like we have four forces in physics and the only one you can manipulate in a lab
[1:35:37 - 1:35:42] ▶
is electromagnetism and then you have the strong force the weak force and gravity gravity again
[1:35:42 - 1:35:48] ▶
we already talked about how it's kind of anomalous the weak force and strong force like these things
[1:35:48 - 1:35:52] ▶
are above my sort of pay grade but like i don't know like maybe you could figure out some way to
[1:35:52 - 1:35:57] ▶
like derive them from like electromagnetism or something like electromagnetism just feels like
[1:35:57 - 1:36:02] ▶
the most useful for sure you can do a lot with Maxwell's equations do you ever wonder if like some
[1:36:02 - 1:36:09] ▶
of this like i'm not even saying just string theory but just on a general level some of these
[1:36:09 - 1:36:13] ▶
things that maybe haven't been proven but are so believed in by very smart people in many cases
[1:36:13 - 1:36:19] ▶
do you ever wonder if that is also like some of these guys maybe have been read in so to speak and
[1:36:19 - 1:36:26] ▶
there are things that are beyond our comprehension of what we understand right now that behind the
[1:36:26 - 1:36:30] ▶
scenes they have that perhaps would explain something like this and this is like kind of the dangle
[1:36:30 - 1:36:34] ▶
little cat's ball to play with while like the ufo thing is like a dangle sure sure but but well
[1:36:34 - 1:36:40] ▶
actually no what i'm worried i'm let's let's actually pull string theory into it right perhaps
[1:36:40 - 1:36:46] ▶
behind the scenes and it could involve ufo's and other things something like that has been proven
[1:36:46 - 1:36:51] ▶
or disproven doesn't matter what it is but that's like kind of a distraction for everyone to
[1:36:51 - 1:36:56] ▶
fight about publicly because they don't want people to know yeah what they got going on over here in
[1:36:56 - 1:37:01] ▶
in DARPA maybe yeah so it's sort of like this red herring distraction against like real tech like
[1:37:01 - 1:37:08] ▶
sure or like weapons testing or something sure possibly yeah i mean another way to put it is like
[1:37:08 - 1:37:15] ▶
if we have like a Manhattan project two point out so it's like you the first Manhattan project is
[1:37:16 - 1:37:21] ▶
like payload potency right so it's like the atom bomb up until like thermonuclear like you know
[1:37:21 - 1:37:29] ▶
hydrogen is our bomb type stuff or whatever and you get you're getting like greater and greater
[1:37:29 - 1:37:34] ▶
and greater magnitude up until like the point where like this stuff is actually like you had even like
[1:37:34 - 1:37:39] ▶
up and hammer debating teller being like you know this is too big for any target or whatever
[1:37:39 - 1:37:43] ▶
if you think about like the Manhattan project two point out it's the world of like stealth
[1:37:44 - 1:37:49] ▶
and on so it's like payload delivery it's not about payload potency and so you have like you know
[1:37:49 - 1:37:54] ▶
the f117 you have the b2 stealth bomber you have you know all of these you know things that like
[1:37:54 - 1:38:01] ▶
the goal is for them to like be like you know to not detectable by like radar and all you know
[1:38:02 - 1:38:08] ▶
adversary you know detection methods and and deliver you know the payload and so like
[1:38:09 - 1:38:16] ▶
I do think in in in in some ways if you take Carl Nell at face value you know he set up army
[1:38:16 - 1:38:24] ▶
features command and he was on the uap task force with David grush if you take him at face value
[1:38:24 - 1:38:30] ▶
then he's saying we're in an arms race to reverse engineer craft that has been retrieved
[1:38:30 - 1:38:35] ▶
with russia and china like they have similar programs and so if you're trying to reverse engineer
[1:38:35 - 1:38:40] ▶
like hyper light drive like faster than light crap or craft that like breaks conservation momentum
[1:38:40 - 1:38:45] ▶
and like you know goes at speeds that like you know we could we could never hope for with chemical
[1:38:45 - 1:38:50] ▶
combustion um then in some sense you could call that like the Manhattan project two point
[1:38:50 - 1:38:57] ▶
oh and that because again that's like the more important vector along which you're making progress
[1:38:57 - 1:39:02] ▶
vis-a-vis your adversaries and so I don't know is that just like the UFO thing or do we have other
[1:39:02 - 1:39:10] ▶
craft that we're working on you know that you know it's purely like man made or terrestrial
[1:39:10 - 1:39:16] ▶
I'm not sure but I think you have to be like thinking about all this stuff uh for sure and because
[1:39:16 - 1:39:22] ▶
that would be the vector along which the us needs to make progress and you might need to increase
[1:39:22 - 1:39:27] ▶
the surface area of knowledge around that thing without maybe spilling the beans on it or like
[1:39:27 - 1:39:34] ▶
sort of like you know you want like the right talent like the right stem student in the us knowing
[1:39:34 - 1:39:39] ▶
about it yes but you don't want you know adversaries knowing anything about it and so like maybe a good
[1:39:39 - 1:39:45] ▶
world in that in that you know in that world view or whatever is one in which like you know random
[1:39:45 - 1:39:50] ▶
phenom electrical engineer in Kentucky grows up on the internet he's aware of this stuff and like
[1:39:50 - 1:39:58] ▶
you know wants to like get involved or whatever but like China and Russia still like have no idea
[1:39:58 - 1:40:04] ▶
how it works because it's all alien or whatever yeah um but then it's just messy man like you know
[1:40:04 - 1:40:11] ▶
you can get cynical and like you know have that be your world view where it's like all some like
[1:40:11 - 1:40:15] ▶
limited hangout tech protection thing and like it's just not like like like you like the UFOs
[1:40:15 - 1:40:22] ▶
and nukes thing it's like you have like 170 credible witnesses since like the 50s and 60s you know
[1:40:22 - 1:40:30] ▶
you mentioned Bob Salis that was 67 you think we had like stuff that was like you know hyper light
[1:40:30 - 1:40:36] ▶
drive craft then like no he definitely didn't and less like I'm like a way off on my understanding of
[1:40:36 - 1:40:42] ▶
the Nazis unless the Nazis from paperclip we're up to some shit yeah they might have figured a
[1:40:42 - 1:40:46] ▶
thing or two out for sure but like a thing that could like fully disarm like the most encrypted like
[1:40:46 - 1:40:53] ▶
NSA you know like like crown jewel assets like I just don't know and like it was well like 47 like
[1:40:53 - 1:41:00] ▶
did like the not I mean that's just it just feels a little crazy um and then and then if you
[1:41:00 - 1:41:04] ▶
believe the you know the grudge stuff which I do like you have magenta and like 33 of you have
[1:41:04 - 1:41:09] ▶
stuff going back like a while and so I just think it's this like extremely complicated um you know
[1:41:09 - 1:41:15] ▶
gets the cone as a extremely complicated territory to traverse to mean and by the way that's
[1:41:15 - 1:41:22] ▶
positive some for there being siops because a lot of people think that's a you know the idea that
[1:41:22 - 1:41:28] ▶
there's a siop and there's something real that's zero sum and so if the thing is not real there's
[1:41:28 - 1:41:34] ▶
more likely to be you know a siop or if there's no siop the thing is you know um less likely to be
[1:41:34 - 1:41:41] ▶
real or whatever what's up is down what's down there positive some if if there is a siop around a
[1:41:41 - 1:41:47] ▶
thing it's probably because the thing is real and maybe it's co-optible and a femoral but it's
[1:41:47 - 1:41:52] ▶
it's real and so you know the idea that there's a siop around a thing means that there is probably
[1:41:52 - 1:41:57] ▶
an underlying reality under it too even if it's not the reality you think it might be sure the tip of
[1:41:57 - 1:42:03] ▶
the iceberg might not look like the rest of the iceberg i'm completely with you on that yeah i
[1:42:03 - 1:42:06] ▶
feel like we have the these religious beliefs that either are like no there's no siop because they're
[1:42:06 - 1:42:12] ▶
just trying to help you know when you talk about like people from the military or intelligence
[1:42:12 - 1:42:17] ▶
coming on talking about this stuff and then on the other side like no it's complete siop it's
[1:42:17 - 1:42:21] ▶
all bullshit there's nothing there yeah i i don't believe either i i think it's a mix like you
[1:42:21 - 1:42:26] ▶
say and and i want i want to get to grush and all of zondo and stuff obviously you have a
[1:42:27 - 1:42:31] ▶
uh long term relationship you you you have with david grush i think you were like one of the first
[1:42:32 - 1:42:36] ▶
guys to know him but as far as when he was doing this stuff and revealing some info but to go back
[1:42:36 - 1:42:43] ▶
to the earliest part of history because i know you know a lot about this stuff and it's so fascinating
[1:42:43 - 1:42:47] ▶
to me that there's there's two things that happen in the 1940s that really just like set the set
[1:42:47 - 1:42:56] ▶
the bar for this space the first thing is the aforementioned manhattan project that brought up where
[1:42:56 - 1:43:01] ▶
we build the nuke or whatever yeah the second thing which is supposedly separate but then ends up
[1:43:01 - 1:43:06] ▶
kind of being related is razzwal which happens out west as well allegedly these aliens landed there
[1:43:06 - 1:43:12] ▶
at whatever and then there was this cover up but like with with the manhattan project i've heard
[1:43:12 - 1:43:17] ▶
you talk about this before on on some of your podcast episodes what was the what was the tata like
[1:43:17 - 1:43:24] ▶
what was the the depth of the discussion that like op and heimer had around ufo's while he was
[1:43:24 - 1:43:34] ▶
out there working on this project and were there things that were potentially seen or what was
[1:43:34 - 1:43:39] ▶
going on there we don't know but there's a book called ufo secrecy in the rob in the fall of
[1:43:39 - 1:43:45] ▶
robber j. op and heimer by a guy named donald burlison snare force guy and there are some weird things
[1:43:45 - 1:43:51] ▶
around that kangaroo court that was held where he lost his qqqq clearance where like the premise
[1:43:51 - 1:43:58] ▶
of the book is that it wasn't around him socializing with you know possible communist spies or whatever
[1:43:58 - 1:44:03] ▶
in the thirties and that actually it could have been around some of this ufo stuff and a lot of the
[1:44:03 - 1:44:09] ▶
quotes like from the kangaroo court is he's he's saying between 45 and 49 a lot happened and he
[1:44:09 - 1:44:15] ▶
keeps saying that it's like this recurring thing and if you actually think about like the bomb
[1:44:15 - 1:44:19] ▶
itself it was 41 through 45 and all the crash all the the lore around ufo crashes 45 through 49
[1:44:19 - 1:44:25] ▶
yes so maybe there's something interesting there john Von noiman who's defending him
[1:44:25 - 1:44:30] ▶
in one of these kangaroo courts is saying you know it took him a while to get adjusted to the
[1:44:30 - 1:44:36] ▶
buck Rogers universe that we're living in he might have been referring to just nuclear weapons
[1:44:36 - 1:44:41] ▶
I mean that's like a weird weird universe but buck Rogers is this comic strip at the time
[1:44:41 - 1:44:45] ▶
and it's all about like space travel and time travel and so and then the uh uh Gordon gray
[1:44:45 - 1:44:52] ▶
is this north carolina lawyer who was rumored to be on the majestic 12 who you know Truman and
[1:44:52 - 1:44:58] ▶
and Eisenhower's sort of council around ufo's and he was overseen he was an actual guy he was overseeing
[1:44:58 - 1:45:05] ▶
you know this kangaroo court with with Oppenheimer and so there's some interesting possible data points
[1:45:06 - 1:45:10] ▶
there and then I'm trying to think of other like like condon who's you know the guy who writes the
[1:45:10 - 1:45:16] ▶
protocols for atomic secrecy which gets overlaid onto ufo secrecy he writes the mcman act around
[1:45:16 - 1:45:25] ▶
atomic secrecy was 1946 a lot of that language gets used in the atomic energy act of 1954
[1:45:25 - 1:45:32] ▶
which creates the atomic energy commission and the DOE and so you have this guy who's he's close
[1:45:32 - 1:45:38] ▶
confidant of Oppenheimer this guy you know Edward condon he wrote the first English language textbook
[1:45:38 - 1:45:43] ▶
on quantum mechanics he studied with Oppenheimer at gottongin and germany in the 30s he grew up
[1:45:43 - 1:45:49] ▶
in alamagordo right next to los alamos and helps piclos alamos as a spot for the Manhattan project
[1:45:50 - 1:45:54] ▶
he wrote the los alamos primer which every single employee had to read upon joining uh uh
[1:45:54 - 1:46:00] ▶
los alamos and and then six weeks into the Manhattan project he clashes with general
[1:46:01 - 1:46:07] ▶
Leslie groves you know mat daemons character in the oppenheimer uh around ufo secrecy and then he
[1:46:07 - 1:46:13] ▶
goes on to write the ufo secrecy protocols and then his q clearance is also stripped around 53 54
[1:46:13 - 1:46:18] ▶
so it's this we that's this weird connection and then 66 he forms the condon commission he's given
[1:46:19 - 1:46:24] ▶
his clearance back in this really dubious weird way we can get into the details around that yeah
[1:46:24 - 1:46:28] ▶
and then well okay so he's given his q clearance back by a guy named Lou Brandscomb who's on the
[1:46:28 - 1:46:34] ▶
jason advisory committee you know jasons are like this very hardcore group when it comes to you
[1:46:34 - 1:46:39] ▶
know overall like very high level you know u.s defense strategy and lou branscomb is this understudy
[1:46:39 - 1:46:45] ▶
from his harvard days uh uh uh from don manzel and um don manzel is also rumored to be on the
[1:46:46 - 1:46:54] ▶
majestic twelve again i don't know if he was but he's this top astronomer who was this professional
[1:46:54 - 1:46:59] ▶
ufo debunker for some reason it like feels like it's this guy's job to be like an you know a ufo
[1:46:59 - 1:47:05] ▶
debunker so you have his like direct understudy like giving condon his his uh clearance back and then
[1:47:05 - 1:47:12] ▶
i think that was like used as like bait to like get condon basically to like do their bidding and
[1:47:12 - 1:47:19] ▶
basically say like you have to like squash this subject and the reason i think that is because in
[1:47:19 - 1:47:23] ▶
the background there's this washington fb i field agent named guy hodl who's basically building a
[1:47:23 - 1:47:29] ▶
ton of compromise on condon himself and if you actually look at the hodl memo on the fb i website
[1:47:29 - 1:47:36] ▶
it's the number one document on the fb i website it's literally the most the most red document on
[1:47:36 - 1:47:41] ▶
the fb i website it's a memo that is written to hodl by you know an air force guy saying that
[1:47:41 - 1:47:48] ▶
you know he's found a ufo that's crashed with you know it's whole crew intact or whatever
[1:47:48 - 1:47:54] ▶
so we know that hodl was at least knowledgeable of the ufo phenomena at the very least like at a
[1:47:54 - 1:48:00] ▶
high level and he's building this kind of dossier on condon and then condon gets his clearance back
[1:48:00 - 1:48:06] ▶
under very mysterious circumstances and even in an american institute of physics interview that he
[1:48:06 - 1:48:11] ▶
gives condon uh the got the interviewers like where you're giving your clearance back because of
[1:48:11 - 1:48:16] ▶
specific uf o cases that you had to review as part of the con commission and he gets all weird
[1:48:16 - 1:48:24] ▶
about it and like he's like repeats himself like a million times like maybe i saw like a movie or
[1:48:24 - 1:48:28] ▶
two or something but like no i didn't need my i didn't need my clearance back and like i you
[1:48:28 - 1:48:32] ▶
know it sounds like he's kind of covering for something and so you have this weird connection
[1:48:32 - 1:48:36] ▶
between him and op and hammer and then the final thing i'll say and i don't know you know i don't
[1:48:36 - 1:48:41] ▶
know what this means but it's like i think sometimes if you're if you're if you're like
[1:48:41 - 1:48:47] ▶
creating this big atomic blast i think in some ways like like uh uh you're creating like a big force
[1:48:48 - 1:48:54] ▶
you're getting closer and closer like like levels of ontological truth like my guess would be like
[1:48:54 - 1:48:58] ▶
the Manhattan project maybe you figure something out and then like sern like maybe you figure some
[1:48:58 - 1:49:03] ▶
like like like maybe it's more than like the higgs field or something that you figure out with like
[1:49:03 - 1:49:07] ▶
the large hydrine collider and so like maybe maybe you get deeper into ontological truth like
[1:49:07 - 1:49:13] ▶
and in this case in sern's case it's electric plasma thrusters and in the Manhattan projects case
[1:49:13 - 1:49:19] ▶
it's like you know it's a you know a uncontrolled nuclear fusion or whatever and so
[1:49:19 - 1:49:26] ▶
uh yeah i mean i don't know but um what was the name of that book again about about it's called you
[1:49:26 - 1:49:34] ▶
uh uh uh uh uh ufo secrecy that it's uh uh ufo secrecy in the fall of robber j a up and hammer
[1:49:34 - 1:49:40] ▶
so he's putting together through a lot of secondary sources meaning like not up and hammer himself
[1:49:40 - 1:49:49] ▶
but other people around the situation and evidence we can collect to circumstantially say if this
[1:49:49 - 1:49:56] ▶
then that if this then that if this then that then that then that then that because there's a
[1:49:56 - 1:50:02] ▶
there why are all these different people in the orbit acting in this way to get rid of this guy
[1:50:02 - 1:50:10] ▶
in particularly who may know this thing about uofos so it's circumstantial but he builds up like a lot
[1:50:10 - 1:50:16] ▶
of bricks in the house so to speak yeah yeah it's completely circumstantial there's no smoking gun
[1:50:16 - 1:50:22] ▶
but he builds up by the way i said i think fusion i meant fission but you're forgiven thank you thank
[1:50:22 - 1:50:29] ▶
you know got to get it right i know i know your audience julia they keep me accountable but um
[1:50:30 - 1:50:36] ▶
yeah it's not there's no smoking gun it's uh you know a lot of circumstantial evidence
[1:50:36 - 1:50:41] ▶
but it's interesting i think it's worthy of follow up and further investigation there's also a
[1:50:42 - 1:50:48] ▶
1971 australian document um written by their joint intelligence organization the head of their
[1:50:48 - 1:50:55] ▶
nuclear division a guy named harry turner and it's really interesting there there are a lot of these
[1:50:55 - 1:51:00] ▶
like ufo detonation experiments being done actually in australia and harry turner is overseeing
[1:51:00 - 1:51:07] ▶
this presumably ufo detonation sorry ufo atomic detonation experiment they're they're they're
[1:51:07 - 1:51:13] ▶
they're bought the ufo detonation experiments yeah you know you're not familiar with that get on it
[1:51:13 - 1:51:18] ▶
julia yeah let's get a video uh yeah yeah let's do um a a like sorah or something um no they're
[1:51:18 - 1:51:26] ▶
they're they're blowing a bombs there and you think about australian it's you know good there's a
[1:51:26 - 1:51:31] ▶
lot of laser a lot of desert yeah exactly um and so he starts to think you know maybe there's more
[1:51:31 - 1:51:38] ▶
of this ufo story that i think they had had some ufo sightings around their nuclear stuff and by
[1:51:38 - 1:51:44] ▶
the way the other thing that makes sense about opineheimer being read in is ufo's are crashing and
[1:51:44 - 1:51:48] ▶
showing up around at least we know they're showing up because of ufo's and nukes but maybe crashing
[1:51:48 - 1:51:53] ▶
around these sites and so you know uh it would make sense that like somebody like an opineiner would
[1:51:53 - 1:51:58] ▶
be read in and so harry turners that you know australian opineheimer whatever like he starts to get
[1:51:58 - 1:52:04] ▶
interested in this and he starts to think that maybe the us and their inquiries into ufo's and
[1:52:04 - 1:52:09] ▶
anti-gravity are way more than meets the i this blue book this whole blue book thing is like you
[1:52:09 - 1:52:14] ▶
know he's like maybe this is just an op and cuz you know blue book is like the front facing program
[1:52:14 - 1:52:18] ▶
that the air force has to again explain away everything downplay everything and we know this because
[1:52:18 - 1:52:23] ▶
of you know hp robertson this caltech physicist writes this memo in 1952 which was supposed to be
[1:52:23 - 1:52:29] ▶
you know it's been a key classified sense but it was supposed to be classified at the time and it
[1:52:29 - 1:52:33] ▶
was basically saying like blue book your mandate is to minimize this stuff explain it away it swamp
[1:52:33 - 1:52:39] ▶
gas it's you know weird lights whatever balloons balloon weather balloons you know and you know
[1:52:40 - 1:52:45] ▶
minimize the stuff through media through narrative and storytelling like it's it's very clear
[1:52:45 - 1:52:49] ▶
about what you know the goal is and so harry turner in australia saying you know maybe this there's
[1:52:49 - 1:52:54] ▶
actually more to this and he writes this he does this investigation and i think this was probably
[1:52:54 - 1:53:00] ▶
right around when the five eyes are being formed as well you know where like there's there's more
[1:53:00 - 1:53:05] ▶
intelligence sharing between you know allied you know australia uk you know us canada that's
[1:53:05 - 1:53:12] ▶
what a thing and man this document is crazy you can actually look it out look it up it's on
[1:53:12 - 1:53:18] ▶
john greenwald's like black vault or whatever you know this you know he has all these like you know
[1:53:19 - 1:53:23] ▶
old declassified documents and it is a comprehensive document that shows that the us had these like
[1:53:23 - 1:53:32] ▶
anti gravity outposts they were studying gravity systematically cia's office of scientific
[1:53:32 - 1:53:37] ▶
intelligence was studying this stuff and you had this guy agnew bonson who's you know you and see
[1:53:37 - 1:53:42] ▶
you know the institute of field physics the you and see chapel hill brishtow it is working with him
[1:53:43 - 1:53:47] ▶
then you have the gravity research foundation at m it you have in university of indiana you have
[1:53:48 - 1:53:53] ▶
Purdue you have m it you have Princeton and you have the institute for advanced study which i believe
[1:53:53 - 1:53:59] ▶
those two were different at the time even though in institutes we're in roughly we're in so he's
[1:53:59 - 1:54:04] ▶
writing this document 1971 but all of those institutions i mean the academic institutions
[1:54:04 - 1:54:11] ▶
were had been set up prior to this but this is all like mid-century like on like 50s like
[1:54:12 - 1:54:17] ▶
anti gravity was super invoked people were really deep into into gravity research so much so that
[1:54:17 - 1:54:22] ▶
Lewis witton who's ed witton the greatest string theorist of all time his you know his
[1:54:22 - 1:54:26] ▶
Lewis witton is working at martin corporation which is pre-locking martin he's working on in their
[1:54:27 - 1:54:32] ▶
anti gravity division called r i s research institute for advanced study which is a play on i
[1:54:32 - 1:54:37] ▶
you know institute for advanced study and he says you know we are going to figure out gravity in
[1:54:37 - 1:54:42] ▶
about the time that you know it took to build the first atom bomb and you have you know Stanley
[1:54:42 - 1:54:48] ▶
Dessert and Richard Arnawitt working on these gravity particle theory gravitons and you know
[1:54:48 - 1:54:54] ▶
and so so anyway Lewis witton says gravity is in the wind you know meaning meaning it is everywhere
[1:54:54 - 1:55:00] ▶
but that maybe there's a sub actually reading to that which is in the wind is actually an intel
[1:55:00 - 1:55:06] ▶
spy term which means it's scattered everywhere so like maybe like it's in the wind in that it's
[1:55:06 - 1:55:11] ▶
like compartmentalized in all these different places and there's some top of the pyramid view on
[1:55:11 - 1:55:15] ▶
like where that gravity research is headed who knows it gets vaporized like in the early 60s but it
[1:55:15 - 1:55:21] ▶
was extremely vital at the time and so he meant I think when he said in the wind it was like you
[1:55:21 - 1:55:26] ▶
know it was ubiquitous it was like very invoked you have all these in cell talbert I believe was
[1:55:26 - 1:55:31] ▶
this Air Force guy who wrote a lot about it you have this Michael Gladich article called here come
[1:55:31 - 1:55:37] ▶
the G engines and all of these like you know patrons of aerospace are exuding supreme confidence
[1:55:37 - 1:55:43] ▶
that beating gravity is around the bend and this ties in with the Chapel Hill conference
[1:55:43 - 1:55:49] ▶
where quantum gravity gets created in 1957 which was under Agnew Bonson at you know the
[1:55:50 - 1:55:55] ▶
Institute of Field Physics at UNC Chapel Hill which you can see in this document is one of these
[1:55:55 - 1:55:59] ▶
outposts studying gravity and they're also simultaneously funding towns and brown who has
[1:55:59 - 1:56:04] ▶
his capacitor gravity experiments and so anyways all of this is to say Oppenheimer is listed as one
[1:56:04 - 1:56:11] ▶
of the scientists deeply involved in anti-gravity research Oppenheimer teller Wheeler
[1:56:11 - 1:56:16] ▶
and Freeman Dyson are all mentioned as being you know really important to this story in
[1:56:17 - 1:56:23] ▶
that Australian document and so yeah just to comprehensively answer your question about whether
[1:56:23 - 1:56:28] ▶
Oppenheimer was involved I don't know that you answered it that's that's that's that's a lot
[1:56:28 - 1:56:34] ▶
essentially it could be we're speculating here situation where for whatever reason in this research
[1:56:34 - 1:56:40] ▶
that could tie all the way to UFOs when we're talking about anti-gravity yeah Oppenheimer may have
[1:56:40 - 1:56:45] ▶
either and or known too much or perhaps formulated an opinion behind the scenes that they didn't like
[1:56:45 - 1:56:55] ▶
that could totally be true yeah he would you know there's a book um called UFO crash by this
[1:56:56 - 1:57:02] ▶
UFO researcher William Steinman and there supposedly was a crash right after Roswell in Aztec
[1:57:02 - 1:57:08] ▶
New Mexico in 1948 and Oppenheimer was rumored to be part of the collection crew collection
[1:57:08 - 1:57:14] ▶
yeah like the crash retrieval guy one of them I need Kylian Murphy at the site right now
[1:57:14 - 1:57:20] ▶
I need that yeah but you know I don't know you know I it's unclear why they would have gone after him
[1:57:22 - 1:57:28] ▶
you know he was obviously like extremely idealistic in some ways yes you know he obviously regretted
[1:57:28 - 1:57:33] ▶
aspects of the you know I've become I've become death I've become death destroy a world so
[1:57:33 - 1:57:38] ▶
yeah I don't I don't know you know I don't know where where he want to stray or what happened or
[1:57:40 - 1:57:44] ▶
whether he was even involved in the UFO this is all predicated on you know they're being some core
[1:57:44 - 1:57:48] ▶
program that he was involved in so you have to think probabilistically again there's a world in
[1:57:48 - 1:57:53] ▶
which maybe he wasn't but and it would tie directly into the lore though because it involves
[1:57:53 - 1:57:56] ▶
literally the godfather of news well that's the thing if you want like real disclosure you like you
[1:57:56 - 1:58:02] ▶
have to look into the historical stuff yeah like the theorizing the crazy time travel ship that's
[1:58:02 - 1:58:06] ▶
so interesting I love it but it's like it's you know as Feynman would say not even wrong completely
[1:58:06 - 1:58:12] ▶
unfalcifiable you like in running circles like you know talking about this stuff and then you know
[1:58:12 - 1:58:18] ▶
the other vector is like we are waiting on the government for discload you know it's like it's like
[1:58:18 - 1:58:24] ▶
just don't please give us the information like we'll be you know we'll be fine we're not going to
[1:58:25 - 1:58:29] ▶
be freaked out or whatever and then there's like real historical research where it's like this
[1:58:29 - 1:58:33] ▶
stuff wasn't that long ago we're talking like 70 years ago 75 years ago whatever um you know we're
[1:58:33 - 1:58:39] ▶
these people at all entangled with the UFO story we just made a hundred and thirty million dollar
[1:58:39 - 1:58:42] ▶
movie about Oppenheimer yeah he's like the godfather of American science you know we should maybe
[1:58:42 - 1:58:48] ▶
just look into that like what did he know yeah you and I were talking before we got on camera about
[1:58:48 - 1:58:54] ▶
the the concept of what's potentially known behind the scenes and therefore the argument
[1:58:54 - 1:59:02] ▶
becomes what should be disclosed and because obviously people weren't listening while we were
[1:59:02 - 1:59:06] ▶
off camera what one of the things I brought up was a very early podcast I did number 17 with
[1:59:06 - 1:59:12] ▶
my friend Alex Horowitz who comes from your world he was one of the early employees at eight
[1:59:12 - 1:59:16] ▶
sleep and got to spend a lot of time around this smartest dude's just like you you know for coming
[1:59:16 - 1:59:23] ▶
from the VC world and whatever but you know he talked about things so matter of factly in that
[1:59:23 - 1:59:27] ▶
episode when we were talking about the power of social media and the the kind of stranglehold that
[1:59:27 - 1:59:32] ▶
has on society and thought one of the things he said is that these companies referring to the
[1:59:32 - 1:59:38] ▶
social media companies and therefore also referring to the government and the power that the highest
[1:59:38 - 1:59:43] ▶
levels have they can simulate things ahead of time and what he expanded upon that with is he's
[1:59:43 - 1:59:50] ▶
they can they have the power based on all the the amalgamated data that they can collect online
[1:59:50 - 1:59:56] ▶
of people's behaviors they have the power to be able to put in a what if scenario and say how would
[1:59:56 - 2:00:03] ▶
overall society react based on all the personalities we've put together in a similar way by the
[2:00:03 - 2:00:09] ▶
way to what the Cambridge Analytica guys did in 2016 yeah helping Trump out because they created
[2:00:09 - 2:00:14] ▶
digital profiles of everyone yeah think of that with more time passed now on steroids yeah and
[2:00:14 - 2:00:20] ▶
so he's like these organizations can figure out for example what if let's say we they knew behind
[2:00:20 - 2:00:29] ▶
the scenes a truth was that aliens exist here's the planet they're from here's when they've been
[2:00:29 - 2:00:34] ▶
here whatever here's what's not true here's what true what if we told society this what would happen
[2:00:34 - 2:00:39] ▶
perhaps yeah and this is where it gets into the do you take the side of intel because I mean
[2:00:39 - 2:00:45] ▶
I want to fucking know I can handle it right you can handle it but like across the
[2:00:45 - 2:00:49] ▶
society it's like could people handle it perhaps if they've put in this what if in 2015 just to
[2:00:49 - 2:00:55] ▶
figure it out like oh shit we know what's going on or we've known what's going on could society handle
[2:00:55 - 2:00:59] ▶
this if on the other side of that what if simulation it's spit out that like yo this would create
[2:00:59 - 2:01:04] ▶
ontological shock that would lead to the fucking purge and people would all kill each other in the
[2:01:04 - 2:01:08] ▶
world would end in nukes would go off yeah well now I'm on the side of intelligence going we can't
[2:01:08 - 2:01:13] ▶
fucking tell them sure what's really going on and that sucks but it's like and I don't I don't want to
[2:01:13 - 2:01:18] ▶
be like a status fucking bootlicker like yeah you don't tell us baby but if they simulate it and it
[2:01:18 - 2:01:24] ▶
doesn't spit that out and it's like yo people could handle this and they're not telling us what
[2:01:24 - 2:01:28] ▶
that pisses me to fuck off totally so I don't know whether to be like okay all right or like
[2:01:28 - 2:01:33] ▶
fuck you yeah I think they're like judo move is like don't wait on like like do your own research
[2:01:33 - 2:01:40] ▶
like I think the idea that like ontological truth is monopolized by government I think is over
[2:01:40 - 2:01:47] ▶
relying on the government like I think I do think yeah if they were to like declassify everything
[2:01:47 - 2:01:52] ▶
immediately I do think it would be ontological ontologically shocking I do think there are people
[2:01:52 - 2:01:57] ▶
in government that know crazy things about reality but in many ways there are effects about reality
[2:01:57 - 2:02:03] ▶
it's like this thing you know this crash happened or whatever or like you know maybe this like
[2:02:03 - 2:02:07] ▶
weird topological physics principle you know like like all these all these sorts of things that are
[2:02:07 - 2:02:12] ▶
probably like scattered throughout government that are like kind of like insane and mind blowing
[2:02:12 - 2:02:16] ▶
and crazy but a lot of these things can be figured out through kind of your own you know open-source
[2:02:16 - 2:02:21] ▶
techniques and through like your own you know inquiry and I think it's almost this like litmus
[2:02:21 - 2:02:27] ▶
tester forcing function where like your ability to figure it out is almost like goes in hand
[2:02:27 - 2:02:34] ▶
with like your ability to handle it if you do like on your own figure it out on your own and so
[2:02:34 - 2:02:40] ▶
yeah I think this whole like waiting for this stuff to come out and like being super antsy about like
[2:02:40 - 2:02:45] ▶
you know some like you know government disclosure thing like it's it's just like this like amorphous
[2:02:45 - 2:02:50] ▶
bogeyman red herring like what is disclosure like what is that you know like if the government came
[2:02:50 - 2:02:56] ▶
out now like the president came out and said UFOs are real you'd still have some subset of
[2:02:56 - 2:03:01] ▶
the population not believing it and super cynical about them saying it if you see a video you know
[2:03:01 - 2:03:06] ▶
maybe that's like we live in the world of deepfakes you like I just talked to you about like you
[2:03:06 - 2:03:11] ▶
know Stanford professor who's like got all the credentials you need saying like you have like you
[2:03:11 - 2:03:15] ▶
know mass spec isotope ratios don't exist naturally on earth and so like what actually is UFO
[2:03:15 - 2:03:22] ▶
disclosure like seeing like there are actually a lot of videos online there are a lot of videos and
[2:03:22 - 2:03:26] ▶
there are a lot of videos that like are kind of hard to debunk you know so we live in this like
[2:03:26 - 2:03:30] ▶
weird world of like the relativization of of facts like the mass relativization of truth and facts
[2:03:30 - 2:03:37] ▶
it's almost like you know the dark ages of past was like a you know a a a a a a a a a a a a
[2:03:37 - 2:03:42] ▶
dearth of information this is an excessive and we're journey from a fire hose of information
[2:03:42 - 2:03:46] ▶
and so I think that's like a really important question it's like what is disclosure and can you just
[2:03:47 - 2:03:54] ▶
use this you know can you actively like seeking it and I don't think it's actually really healthy
[2:03:54 - 2:03:58] ▶
for a lot of people to like think about this all the time you know I think it's like for it's it's
[2:03:58 - 2:04:02] ▶
it's a it's it's it can be really like hard for people and kind of you know it's like ontologically
[2:04:02 - 2:04:08] ▶
shocking like weird process it gets religious to get religious and then like you know it's unclear
[2:04:08 - 2:04:13] ▶
exactly how it cashes out you know like it's like maybe maybe you end up in the program or something
[2:04:13 - 2:04:20] ▶
and then like and then what and then you're like maybe like sitting at a cubicle or something maybe
[2:04:20 - 2:04:24] ▶
you can do some higher level thing for them I don't know but like you know it's like you have all
[2:04:24 - 2:04:30] ▶
these people like on the internet like studying this stuff all the time and like so I like like
[2:04:30 - 2:04:35] ▶
Charlie and it's always sunny yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah and then and then there's
[2:04:35 - 2:04:40] ▶
the idea that like but reality itself is not monopolized by the girl but like you you know that
[2:04:40 - 2:04:44] ▶
that's like more of a religious thing it's like you you can you can just like look into that
[2:04:44 - 2:04:48] ▶
on your own for sure yeah but like it's it's strange that from say 1945-ish that ballpark area
[2:04:48 - 2:04:57] ▶
till 2017 yeah it was this yeah Steven Spielberg might make a movie yeah we'll get a good
[2:04:58 - 2:05:06] ▶
Terminator you're not terminate you might we'll get a good alien versus predator movie yeah or
[2:05:06 - 2:05:10] ▶
something like that but like this is just a thing over there it's not like Dr. Michio Kakuzat
[2:05:10 - 2:05:16] ▶
here talking about UFOs it's not like you have serious people like a Gary Nolan coming in and
[2:05:16 - 2:05:22] ▶
studying a lot of different things around this not just the things that were retrieved but things
[2:05:22 - 2:05:26] ▶
they got to do with the basil ganglia like you were explaining and all that like it it became
[2:05:26 - 2:05:31] ▶
after 2017 there was a shift where suddenly there was like a decision to pull it more mainstream
[2:05:32 - 2:05:38] ▶
and we mentioned it earlier but it starts with Christopher Mellon uh-huh remember of the Mellon
[2:05:38 - 2:05:43] ▶
family gotta say that walking out legally yeah out of the Pentagon yep and legally distributing
[2:05:43 - 2:05:51] ▶
information to the New York to the New York Times where I think this was also where we got the
[2:05:52 - 2:05:56] ▶
new term UAP which is also interesting and saying like all right front page of the New York Times like
[2:05:56 - 2:06:02] ▶
yo some shit's going on out there we can't explain and you know you know we can talk about the
[2:06:03 - 2:06:07] ▶
tic-tac stuff and all that but like now seven years later it has become much more of a of a mainstream
[2:06:07 - 2:06:15] ▶
topic so you we started this long tangent about this where you were talking about the concept of
[2:06:15 - 2:06:23] ▶
could there be a sia that also then is on top of something that's real because it's real yeah
[2:06:24 - 2:06:30] ▶
right yeah what's your thought on the characters that have come out and we'll get to grush but
[2:06:30 - 2:06:36] ▶
let's more focus on say Christopher Mellon yeah Louis Alizondo who was allegedly the head of the A-Tip
[2:06:36 - 2:06:43] ▶
program in the Pentagon yep and guys like that coming out and mainstreaming this do you think
[2:06:43 - 2:06:48] ▶
it's a pure distraction or do you think it's all truth or do you think it's a mix of both I don't
[2:06:49 - 2:06:57] ▶
know I mean I guess Mellon was what deputy assistant secretary of defense intelligence for both
[2:06:58 - 2:07:04] ▶
Clinton and Bush yeah he's got to be like pretty pretty deep on the inside and like you know I mean
[2:07:04 - 2:07:10] ▶
he he has to know a lot you know and then he obviously comes from the the you know Mellon family
[2:07:10 - 2:07:17] ▶
or whatever I don't know how much that gives you as far as access to you know you a phone knowledge
[2:07:17 - 2:07:22] ▶
probably not much but um I'll let you be all right um I don't know what they do with those
[2:07:22 - 2:07:29] ▶
Mellon parties baby you don't know I haven't gotten an invite yeah I want my invite let's go
[2:07:29 - 2:07:36] ▶
I met him once briefly but um yeah I don't know you know I'm not sure what they're what they're
[2:07:36 - 2:07:42] ▶
up to exactly like I'm talking to Lou soon so I'm excited to kind of dig in there but and you've
[2:07:42 - 2:07:49] ▶
talked him before right yeah I have yeah I actually did a show with him in Wyoming at his spot out
[2:07:49 - 2:07:54] ▶
there and then it never saw the light of day I guess why I think he like wasn't allowed to do media
[2:07:54 - 2:08:00] ▶
or something uh I think due to some like relationships he had I'm not exactly sure but okay so he
[2:08:00 - 2:08:08] ▶
couldn't let it be real he couldn't let it be released was kind of frustrating did he blow your mind
[2:08:08 - 2:08:12] ▶
at all uh he had some he's really good with like analogies like these like you know like he's
[2:08:12 - 2:08:19] ▶
good at like describing like the space time metric engineering on the paper or whatever and then like
[2:08:19 - 2:08:24] ▶
you know like the science religion thing I remember him being like there are two sides of the
[2:08:25 - 2:08:29] ▶
different you know of like a pyramid and like you're starting you know religion like at the bottom
[2:08:29 - 2:08:34] ▶
of the pyramid you're starting science it's like a totally different side and then you converge
[2:08:34 - 2:08:38] ▶
at some like a mega point and I was like oh that's like really good analogy but no he didn't blow my
[2:08:38 - 2:08:43] ▶
mind I mean like on some of the implant stuff actually he blew my mind I mean imminent does have
[2:08:43 - 2:08:48] ▶
some interesting revelations there but as far vis-a-vis the grush stuff where it's like no we have like
[2:08:48 - 2:08:54] ▶
actual like reverse engineering programs like Elizondo to me 2017 is definitely like pushing the
[2:08:54 - 2:09:00] ▶
ball forward now I wouldn't say he's as much the tip of the spear I think the grush stuff is a little
[2:09:00 - 2:09:05] ▶
more right you know the frontier before we get to that those staying on lieu it's like in in the past
[2:09:05 - 2:09:12] ▶
like lieu has this religious and anti-religious thing online there's people who religiously
[2:09:12 - 2:09:18] ▶
believe every single thing he says in treat him like the second coming of Jesus Christ from Cuba
[2:09:18 - 2:09:22] ▶
yeah and like you know he's also I think he's dad like a scape Cuba and it make it right I think he
[2:09:22 - 2:09:29] ▶
I think he escaped Cuba I think he fought on like Castro side I think and then like ended up
[2:09:29 - 2:09:37] ▶
escaping and then and then but then I think somehow he was like he ended up in Intel I think he
[2:09:37 - 2:09:42] ▶
was in the CIA I think he's like a super interesting like crazy life and I think now he lives in
[2:09:42 - 2:09:47] ▶
South America or somewhere I don't know but he is super interesting yeah I will put a pin in that one
[2:09:48 - 2:09:54] ▶
yeah but like you have this guy who you know comes out and discloses all this stuff and it obviously
[2:09:54 - 2:10:02] ▶
blows your mind if it's true and things like that but online you have the people who follow every
[2:10:02 - 2:10:07] ▶
single thing he says religiously and then you have the other side who treats him like the second
[2:10:07 - 2:10:12] ▶
coming of Satan himself right right and there's a lot of there's some weird shit that that's like
[2:10:12 - 2:10:17] ▶
online that people argue about over that I'm less involved with that world where I've been critical
[2:10:17 - 2:10:22] ▶
of him in the past on several episodes I know 151 with with Ron James we were talking about that
[2:10:22 - 2:10:29] ▶
a bunch because he interviewed him for his documentary we talked about it with Nick Pope and 179
[2:10:29 - 2:10:34] ▶
like three hours in Nick Pope has thoughts on that because he was in the government yeah and stuff
[2:10:34 - 2:10:38] ▶
and and there have been some others where I've talked about it it's like I joke like fed because
[2:10:38 - 2:10:43] ▶
too loose credit maybe if you look at if you listen to him in full context and pass interviews he
[2:10:44 - 2:10:51] ▶
said lines like I'll say I'm paraphrasing but it's pretty damn close to what I'm about to say
[2:10:51 - 2:10:55] ▶
yeah he said things like listen I'm an intel guy yeah yeah that's what it is yeah so here's what I do
[2:10:55 - 2:11:02] ▶
with that I say to myself from a critical lens I'm like okay I don't know what I don't know yeah maybe
[2:11:02 - 2:11:09] ▶
it's an intel app and the logic behind it is actually evil yeah I don't know or maybe it's an
[2:11:09 - 2:11:14] ▶
intel app because they figured out some ontological shock shit and like they know shit I don't and he
[2:11:14 - 2:11:19] ▶
has to come out here yeah do that and do his job in which case all the respect to you do your thing
[2:11:19 - 2:11:25] ▶
yeah just like I say to boost the Montaill nice job working for the CIA still like it is what it is
[2:11:25 - 2:11:30] ▶
meaning though I can take what you say with a grain of salt yeah and so when I look at
[2:11:30 - 2:11:34] ▶
Lua I've been critical saying like might be a fed here yeah he's kind of said he like in some ways
[2:11:34 - 2:11:39] ▶
makes me think he is therefore I don't necessarily have to believe what he says because there could be
[2:11:39 - 2:11:46] ▶
something else to it doesn't mean it's bad yeah but like I'll be really curious to know sitting
[2:11:46 - 2:11:50] ▶
across from the guy yeah you know trying to get a fuel for him man the man human yeah if like maybe
[2:11:50 - 2:11:55] ▶
and you don't know maybe you could pick up on that or not and I'd be curious to see what you're
[2:11:55 - 2:11:59] ▶
throwing sorry I think a lot a lot of people were cynical around him because of this like threat
[2:11:59 - 2:12:04] ▶
narrative originally and like you know being involved with TTSA or whatever that's Tom Delong's to
[2:12:04 - 2:12:11] ▶
the stars yes it is but I think he's changed his tune yeah exactly Tom Delong's to the stars academy
[2:12:11 - 2:12:16] ▶
and that you know they had a lot of interesting characters involved there but I think I think
[2:12:16 - 2:12:20] ▶
Liu has fed fed yeah interesting crew bored but you know I think
[2:12:20 - 2:12:30] ▶
Liu's changed his tune a little since then you know in imminent like in the forward he's like
[2:12:31 - 2:12:35] ▶
you know imminent usually associate with threats like that's not why I'm titling at this so
[2:12:35 - 2:12:40] ▶
I think that's been kind of toned down I don't know man I don't know you know I mean I
[2:12:41 - 2:12:47] ▶
look I will say you're never gonna get like Snowden vibes from him and I even brought up Snowden
[2:12:47 - 2:12:54] ▶
him once and he was like yeah like I've never never never do that like fuck that you know yeah they all say
[2:12:54 - 2:13:00] ▶
that yeah could you not see how someone like Snowden felt the way he did totally different scenario from
[2:13:00 - 2:13:07] ▶
UIP to be sure very fair here but felt the way he did from a constitutional perspective to come out
[2:13:07 - 2:13:12] ▶
I have no problem with the way Sun felt I have a problem with what Snowden did he took his
[2:13:12 - 2:13:18] ▶
information and gave it to the Russians that's the problem he gave it to the Russians yes that's
[2:13:18 - 2:13:23] ▶
the problem he didn't come out and whistle blow he came out and spy he leaked information classified
[2:13:23 - 2:13:28] ▶
information I've never done that I've never purported to do it I don't support it we mean
[2:13:28 - 2:13:32] ▶
he leaked it to the Russians brother that's why he went to Russia for to well his plane got down by
[2:13:32 - 2:13:37] ▶
at the time Vice President Joe Biden he was flying brother he's living in Russia I know but he was
[2:13:37 - 2:13:41] ▶
flying from I know but he was flying from Hong Kong to Ecuador and his plane got downed in Russia
[2:13:41 - 2:13:46] ▶
just you know what he had with him right he he gave up that it wasn't just a Julian Assange this
[2:13:47 - 2:13:52] ▶
is not like like private manning did where you know they were just trying to expose some things but
[2:13:52 - 2:13:57] ▶
why the way was still wrong yeah right way in wrong way different situation yeah he actually
[2:13:57 - 2:14:01] ▶
compromised people who died and that is a problem there there there are people who are no longer alive
[2:14:01 - 2:14:06] ▶
right now so that's been that's been disputed though that there's that there's people that say that
[2:14:06 - 2:14:10] ▶
there's no one who died as a result no no he may have risked it no there there there are there
[2:14:10 - 2:14:15] ▶
there are I can't go into details there are sources who died so it's like he's you know these people
[2:14:15 - 2:14:20] ▶
are not like for like catastrophic disco like they're I think um you know the idealistic take is
[2:14:20 - 2:14:27] ▶
like he wants to broaden the surface area of understanding on this stuff he believes like you
[2:14:27 - 2:14:32] ▶
know ontological truth shouldn't be monopolized by the government uh and he is trying to like come
[2:14:32 - 2:14:38] ▶
out with this with this stuff but without breaking you know any of his oaths and like you know it
[2:14:38 - 2:14:43] ▶
doesn't want to end up in jail and then beyond that you know I don't know what what do you what do you
[2:14:43 - 2:14:49] ▶
think I'm curious to talk with him yeah because like you know I'm not going to know the truth yeah
[2:14:49 - 2:14:59] ▶
I'm not a fucking mind reader yeah man pretty good at sitting across from people and getting an idea
[2:14:59 - 2:15:02] ▶
I'm sure I'm gonna have my opinion doesn't mean I'm right yeah but I will say in reading
[2:15:02 - 2:15:07] ▶
imminent I'm working through it right now yeah I have a lot of mixed on yeah I think I really think
[2:15:07 - 2:15:14] ▶
it could come back to your theory on this stuff as a whole which is that it could be a little bit
[2:15:14 - 2:15:18] ▶
of both yeah yeah yeah right all right let's not tell him about this but let's get him comfortable
[2:15:18 - 2:15:22] ▶
with this I mean he has a counterintel background so yes exactly and like and the dudes the dudes
[2:15:22 - 2:15:29] ▶
resume before anything UAP UFO is pretty nuts I mean really dude's been around the block in some
[2:15:29 - 2:15:36] ▶
dangerous areas doing things so he's an ideal kind of person to you know be a messenger of that
[2:15:36 - 2:15:44] ▶
maybe on a counterintel type basis but again it doesn't mean that the concept of like yo we have
[2:15:44 - 2:15:51] ▶
things in our airspace that we can explain that are not our technology and we strongly believe
[2:15:51 - 2:15:59] ▶
or not the technology of our adversaries or we'd be fucked right now yeah you know and if you're not
[2:15:59 - 2:16:04] ▶
purking up when you hear that at least yeah not saying he's telling the truth but if you're not
[2:16:04 - 2:16:09] ▶
purking up at that I think that's a mistake I think you I think it's you know like Darcy Weir
[2:16:09 - 2:16:14] ▶
was really convinced of me to do this because I'm like Darcy isn't he like kind of a fed he's like
[2:16:14 - 2:16:18] ▶
well you'd be the judge of it man like see what do you see what he has to say yeah it's interesting
[2:16:18 - 2:16:23] ▶
yeah I can't argue with that yeah yeah no it's definitely interesting and I think he brings
[2:16:23 - 2:16:28] ▶
forward like specific interesting facts that are worthy of you know real investigation I do think
[2:16:28 - 2:16:34] ▶
at this point grush bringing forward 40 you know accused legacy people like from the you know the
[2:16:34 - 2:16:41] ▶
program who you know gone forth to the you know I see Inspector General Thomas Monheim and said like
[2:16:41 - 2:16:48] ▶
you know we've worked on this stuff a lot a lot of cases firsthand I think that feels like a far
[2:16:48 - 2:16:54] ▶
more productive in route at this point you know then like talking about like random implants or whatever
[2:16:54 - 2:16:59] ▶
or like you know some siding you know like if we've have like a historical crash retrieval program
[2:17:00 - 2:17:06] ▶
or trying to reverse engineer this stuff that to me feels like a vital you know importance like
[2:17:06 - 2:17:11] ▶
like the you know the the real tip of the spear but I don't know as far as like the food fight you
[2:17:11 - 2:17:17] ▶
know around you know it's like there's some people were like he was in a tip on these years and
[2:17:17 - 2:17:22] ▶
this all you know and James Lekatsky says this and he says this and what it's like I read all of that
[2:17:22 - 2:17:31] ▶
and I have a mental map of that I don't like to weigh in on it because I don't want to get involved
[2:17:31 - 2:17:38] ▶
I just don't so like I like the Drew Ski meme not me not me no I just want to I want to you know I want to study
[2:17:39 - 2:17:47] ▶
this stuff I'm you know pro American national security but I want to like look into this stuff and I
[2:17:47 - 2:17:58] ▶
like I want to look into it like aggressively in a way that like I you know I can understand
[2:17:58 - 2:18:03] ▶
you know the truth and so I hope that never comes at odds with the you know right not sick thing
[2:18:03 - 2:18:09] ▶
or whatever but like yeah I'm not trying to like hurl ad hominem at anybody I just I just want to
[2:18:09 - 2:18:15] ▶
like be in my own lane and like search for truth stay that way dude and if anybody by the way
[2:18:15 - 2:18:20] ▶
where to hit me up and be like hey like don't cover this because you're like accidentally
[2:18:21 - 2:18:28] ▶
through your own open source investigation not out of malice but like leaking like important
[2:18:28 - 2:18:33] ▶
shit that's like vital to American national security I would stop I would would fuck yeah I'm not
[2:18:33 - 2:18:39] ▶
trying to like gratuitous yeah I care about this country I think like as fucked up as it is and like
[2:18:39 - 2:18:45] ▶
as you know all the issues that we were talking about as far as macro economic headwinds and whatever
[2:18:45 - 2:18:51] ▶
I want this thing to this weird experiment to continue I think it's a beautiful place to live
[2:18:52 - 2:18:57] ▶
and if somebody was like yeah like some of that stuff you talked about it's extremely low cost
[2:18:57 - 2:19:03] ▶
you know thermonuclear 2.0 thing like don't talk about I'd be like yeah I'm not gonna talk about it
[2:19:04 - 2:19:12] ▶
but like what's interesting is like I actually feel like I've become very close to truth
[2:19:13 - 2:19:18] ▶
in certain areas and like it's just sort of where have you seen my towns and brown episode
[2:19:18 - 2:19:25] ▶
now wait is that the guy revert the 26 year old engineer no no no this guy is a mid-century
[2:19:25 - 2:19:32] ▶
inventor he's born 1905 died in 1985 and he worked with like most of the kind of big big aerospace
[2:19:32 - 2:19:40] ▶
companies and then you have like all of these really interesting credible witnesses around gravity
[2:19:40 - 2:19:46] ▶
experiments that he did with these asymmetric capacitors so you have a negative charge plate
[2:19:46 - 2:19:52] ▶
positive charge plate neutral insulator in the middle you pump the whole thing with kind of like
[2:19:52 - 2:19:56] ▶
megabolt range electricity and you get this weird you know this acceleration from the negative
[2:19:56 - 2:20:04] ▶
plate to the positive plate even when the positive plate is faced upwards so it's basically like
[2:20:04 - 2:20:09] ▶
ability to manipulate gravity through pure electromagnetism as the input and you know that would be
[2:20:09 - 2:20:16] ▶
this insane novel thing and he claimed to replicate in a vacuum chamber which is like that the main
[2:20:16 - 2:20:20] ▶
detract attraction on this experiment is that ion wind is causing the thrust so if you're in a
[2:20:20 - 2:20:25] ▶
vacuum chamber you can't you don't have ion wind there are other variations of the experiment
[2:20:25 - 2:20:30] ▶
that involve negating the ion wind component and like the amount I mean Edward Teller was a credible
[2:20:30 - 2:20:35] ▶
witness his I've met town some browns daughter who talks about Edward Teller being in the room
[2:20:35 - 2:20:40] ▶
freaking out around yeah saying I don't know how this works around town some browns fan precipitate
[2:20:40 - 2:20:46] ▶
or experiment you have this technical consultant right Paterson or right right airfield at the
[2:20:46 - 2:20:54] ▶
time named Victor Bertrandi is freaking out you have Agnew Bonson who forms the Institute of Field
[2:20:54 - 2:20:59] ▶
Physics and is funding brown but also doing the funding that the most frontier theoretical physics
[2:20:59 - 2:21:05] ▶
at the time and establishing quantum gravity he says strange things happen at high megabolt
[2:21:05 - 2:21:10] ▶
high megabolt age across short distances he's clearly talking about Brown's experiments
[2:21:11 - 2:21:14] ▶
and then the interesting way in which this ties into the UFO story is like that magnesium bismuth
[2:21:15 - 2:21:19] ▶
you know that you know we talked about in the Gary Nolan so magnesium bismuth is this thing
[2:21:20 - 2:21:26] ▶
that Brown talks constantly about because it's a high K dielectric meaning it stores a lot of
[2:21:26 - 2:21:31] ▶
electro magnetic charge the higher the higher the K factor on the material and the insulator in
[2:21:31 - 2:21:37] ▶
between the two capacitors the greater the thrust you get and so barium titanate magnesium bismuth
[2:21:37 - 2:21:44] ▶
a lot of these materials that come up you know in this interesting way around the UFO conversation
[2:21:44 - 2:21:50] ▶
are part of Brown's experiments and are in his like winter haven proposal and so that could make
[2:21:50 - 2:21:56] ▶
you a cynic and you could be like oh that's like you know maybe it's all like cover for some gravity
[2:21:56 - 2:22:01] ▶
thing or whatever but Brown himself is very trippy and he would talk about being in touch with
[2:22:01 - 2:22:05] ▶
space brothers and like space brothers yes and like he and his daughter had a UFO experience
[2:22:05 - 2:22:11] ▶
and he attributes a lot of his initial work and knowledge to a UFO experience he had on Catalina
[2:22:12 - 2:22:18] ▶
Island which is a UFO hotspot the fucking Catalina wine mixture that it all started there it is
[2:22:18 - 2:22:25] ▶
it is a UFO I just can never wrap my head around the fact that the Catalina wine mixture places
[2:22:25 - 2:22:30] ▶
where there's a lot of your photoship but you're 100% right yeah yeah yeah yeah somehow those two
[2:22:30 - 2:22:33] ▶
things go hand in hand yeah so you know and there's there's a good book called under under c UFO
[2:22:33 - 2:22:39] ▶
base by Preston Dennett which documents all the you know the crazy amount of UFO signings in
[2:22:39 - 2:22:44] ▶
Catalina so anyways that would be an area where like that really wasn't super popular the Brown
[2:22:44 - 2:22:50] ▶
stuff pre me cover I mean this great biographer Skygium Paul Shatskin wrote a book on it
[2:22:50 - 2:22:57] ▶
called the Manu Master Gravity and that you know my piece wasn't some ways an homage to that to
[2:22:57 - 2:23:03] ▶
that book and I think they're all sorts of loose threads in areas where I've gone deeper on the
[2:23:03 - 2:23:09] ▶
book and like I think they're weak areas of where we need more corroboration I think he gets certain
[2:23:09 - 2:23:15] ▶
things wrong in spots but if Townsend Brown it in the world in which UFOs are real if you're telling me
[2:23:15 - 2:23:21] ▶
Townsend Brown wasn't part of the you know kind of legacy stuff then I just don't believe the then
[2:23:21 - 2:23:25] ▶
I think UFOs aren't real or something he's like he he has to be more involved than anybody in my opinion
[2:23:25 - 2:23:30] ▶
but you're also saying in some of the research related to that to bring it back to the beginning
[2:23:30 - 2:23:34] ▶
you could be getting at some things that get a little interesting well yeah because it's like if
[2:23:34 - 2:23:38] ▶
you know and help in my interview with how put off in Weinstein you know how put off like
[2:23:38 - 2:23:44] ▶
if we figured anything out in the in the you know maybe we did figure out some of the stuff in the
[2:23:46 - 2:23:50] ▶
world of gravity but you know it went black or we didn't figure anything out any kind of like
[2:23:50 - 2:23:55] ▶
proposes these like funny you know sort of thing and if we did figure anything out I think brown
[2:23:55 - 2:24:01] ▶
was at the center of it there might have been alternative you know some other some other interesting
[2:24:01 - 2:24:07] ▶
things being researched like microwave beam propulsion there might be a couple of other you
[2:24:07 - 2:24:11] ▶
know kind of ways to investigate this but I think brown was pretty you know deep on this stuff
[2:24:11 - 2:24:18] ▶
but if you got if you got hit up that some of these threads we're getting close to national security
[2:24:19 - 2:24:24] ▶
you're saying you'd back off yeah I mean if and if I got you know get ration out for it's like hey man
[2:24:24 - 2:24:31] ▶
like you don't want like yeah yeah that but but you know the reason to not back off until that
[2:24:31 - 2:24:39] ▶
is that like this has really important civil site like our our infrastructures into K our cities
[2:24:39 - 2:24:45] ▶
are like it's just horrible they suck and and and and going downhill despite trillion dollar
[2:24:45 - 2:24:52] ▶
infrastructure bills being passed and we're not an interstellar you know a species and you know
[2:24:52 - 2:24:58] ▶
be awesome if we we couldn't and and actually transcend the limits of of space X which space X is
[2:24:58 - 2:25:04] ▶
an amazing company but it's really an earth-based space company it's space for it's space travel
[2:25:04 - 2:25:10] ▶
for you know it's a starlink and maybe moon or Mars if we're lucky and you know that is like
[2:25:10 - 2:25:15] ▶
after we get starship to work but we're not really going beyond that and so like I think this
[2:25:15 - 2:25:21] ▶
stuff is extremely important to explore and so yeah until like I hear anything on that then
[2:25:21 - 2:25:28] ▶
I think yeah and the logical thing is like move forward and and I and I respect that a lot I also
[2:25:28 - 2:25:33] ▶
respect the idea that like you know as a patriotic American if you felt like something was
[2:25:33 - 2:25:38] ▶
getting on the edge of where shickard dangerous or there's blowback you know you stop that the here's
[2:25:38 - 2:25:44] ▶
the catch 22 there though that's difficult and my friend joby war who have had on a couple times
[2:25:44 - 2:25:50] ▶
episode 134 and episode 198 you know he's two-time Pulitzer winner long-time national security reporter
[2:25:50 - 2:25:57] ▶
at the washington post just incredible incredible journalist wrote the book black flags in
[2:25:57 - 2:26:04] ▶
2015 or 2016 which is about like the rise of isis and is the greatest book ever written on that
[2:26:05 - 2:26:11] ▶
yeah which one the Pulitzer but like I remember when he was in here for 134 when I was still in my
[2:26:11 - 2:26:16] ▶
parents house there was a conversation maybe like 50 minutes into there where we were talking about
[2:26:16 - 2:26:22] ▶
all the scenarios were what you're talking about happens exactly in the washington post room in
[2:26:23 - 2:26:28] ▶
the national security room and it is where their sources or representatives of the government come
[2:26:28 - 2:26:34] ▶
to them when they're working on a story they know about and they go yo guys if you report this people
[2:26:34 - 2:26:39] ▶
are going to die the the other problem that you might encounter at the end of this this is
[2:26:39 - 2:26:45] ▶
something we actually get into all the time is even after you proved your case six ways to
[2:26:45 - 2:26:50] ▶
sunday and then and then and no one can really deny it you still have this this sort of final
[2:26:50 - 2:26:56] ▶
interview with with the CIA which are presenting what you're going to say because they have every
[2:26:56 - 2:27:00] ▶
response as we see it they have a you know they should be able to respond and put them and say
[2:27:00 - 2:27:06] ▶
what they want to say and often they will make an appeal to you as an american saying that if you
[2:27:06 - 2:27:12] ▶
write this story you're going to get somebody in trouble you're going to get somebody killed
[2:27:12 - 2:27:16] ▶
and then we it gives us pause and we stop and we think well is that really true or are they
[2:27:16 - 2:27:21] ▶
just kind of feeding us this line because they they're going to be embarrassed and often we'll
[2:27:21 - 2:27:26] ▶
we'll negotiate we'll say okay well if there is a security issue if there is a a person at risk
[2:27:26 - 2:27:31] ▶
we're willing to withhold certain facts we're willing to and that's a difficult decision for a
[2:27:31 - 2:27:37] ▶
journalist to make but we see that as being responsible that you don't just say something
[2:27:37 - 2:27:42] ▶
right proportion because you know it there's also you do worry about human lives and if you're
[2:27:42 - 2:27:46] ▶
going to compromise a security operation we're not comfortable doing that and so we'll we'll
[2:27:46 - 2:27:53] ▶
you know modify the report in a way just just to leave out certain details that might get
[2:27:53 - 2:27:57] ▶
somebody in trouble and and and and the one example where this happened was the sort of the black
[2:27:57 - 2:28:02] ▶
side prisons that we talked about there was a secret CIA program where they set up prisons around
[2:28:02 - 2:28:07] ▶
the world for interrogating members of of all kind of that they caught and there was a top secret
[2:28:07 - 2:28:12] ▶
thing nobody knew that these prisons existed it was outside to the judicial system there's no
[2:28:12 - 2:28:17] ▶
accountability no oversight what years are we talking about this is 2006 was where the story's
[2:28:17 - 2:28:22] ▶
broke and so the the initial stories that that that we wrote we knew where the prisons were
[2:28:22 - 2:28:29] ▶
but we agreed and then negotiating process with the agency that we wouldn't say specifically where
[2:28:30 - 2:28:35] ▶
they were because there would be possibility of attacks on those on those facilities you know the
[2:28:35 - 2:28:41] ▶
there there was real danger for people if we if we pointed to specific facilities so we we let
[2:28:41 - 2:28:46] ▶
that out and it was still a powerful story we still revealed something we felt was very important
[2:28:46 - 2:28:50] ▶
for people to know about yeah but we tried to do it in a responsible way and that's just sort of
[2:28:50 - 2:28:54] ▶
the balancing act that we have to deal with sometimes and he talks about the impossible meeting that
[2:28:54 - 2:28:59] ▶
occurs there afterwards where they have to ask themselves do we believe them or do we think they're
[2:28:59 - 2:29:06] ▶
trying to cover for something and people aren't really going to die and they're trying to hold the
[2:29:06 - 2:29:10] ▶
dangle of human life over us so that we don't report this yeah so if you start getting and some
[2:29:10 - 2:29:14] ▶
things that get really interesting you know I'm with you and it's an impossible question to answer
[2:29:14 - 2:29:20] ▶
in your head that like there may be points where you stop but you might have to ask the question
[2:29:20 - 2:29:25] ▶
sometimes where it's like yeah telling me this and why yeah and maybe this is sketch sure well
[2:29:25 - 2:29:31] ▶
they're doing it to protect all agopolistic interests or whatever and I would just say the context
[2:29:32 - 2:29:37] ▶
in which you're operating as an oligopoly on you know whatever science or tech or whatever is
[2:29:37 - 2:29:43] ▶
going to go away because the US is going to lose its kind of primacy in these areas and so again
[2:29:43 - 2:29:49] ▶
in the world in which you have you know some sort of arms race around this stuff which is sort of
[2:29:49 - 2:29:55] ▶
it's really dystopian even to like talk about and like frame it like that but it's the world we live
[2:29:55 - 2:29:59] ▶
in and if Carl Nell again is right that there is this sort of reverse engineering arms race
[2:29:59 - 2:30:03] ▶
then you have the US version which according to everybody in UFO world has this corporatized
[2:30:05 - 2:30:12] ▶
vulcanized fiefdom based left hands not talking to the right hand if you believe this Wilson memo
[2:30:12 - 2:30:19] ▶
thing that came out you know where this guy head of the you know J2 joint chiefs Thomas Wilson who's
[2:30:19 - 2:30:24] ▶
you know in charge of all military technology is meeting with Eric Davis and you know saying that
[2:30:24 - 2:30:29] ▶
he's meeting with this company and progress is very slow and cumbersome and they exist outside of
[2:30:29 - 2:30:34] ▶
you know all normal you know security clearances and you know they don't they kind of understand
[2:30:34 - 2:30:39] ▶
some aspects of how these crafts fly but they don't understand all of it or whatever if you believe
[2:30:39 - 2:30:44] ▶
that and if you believe you know lock you north rip like all these sorts of companies like have like
[2:30:44 - 2:30:50] ▶
bits and pieces and they're not coordinating with each other then you have to think that like
[2:30:50 - 2:30:56] ▶
the Russia China version it's just like fully nationalized and they just have like their best
[2:30:56 - 2:31:00] ▶
and brightest scientists on this stuff good point and if that's the case it's like maybe we're
[2:31:00 - 2:31:06] ▶
it's like we're caveman and we have usb drives and the caveman has no idea what to do with the
[2:31:06 - 2:31:11] ▶
usb drive you don't know information theory you don't have a computer to plug it into but maybe
[2:31:11 - 2:31:16] ▶
it's like Galileo with an iPhone which like that Galileo is pretty smart and maybe Galileo can open
[2:31:16 - 2:31:24] ▶
up the iPhone the iPhone has a graphical interface you can kind of touch it and like learn you know
[2:31:24 - 2:31:28] ▶
this action causes this reaction and all of a sudden you know convergence as far as like
[2:31:28 - 2:31:33] ▶
ability like use the thing gets much quicker and like these I have to like make these conjectures
[2:31:33 - 2:31:38] ▶
because I have no idea and nobody knows has any idea but like are to my knowledge unless I'm
[2:31:38 - 2:31:45] ▶
living in some like Truman show the smartest people I know like work at like I don't know like
[2:31:45 - 2:31:51] ▶
anderill and palanter and SpaceX and like you know these like new tech companies they're not working
[2:31:51 - 2:31:57] ▶
at these older stodgy or you know like American primes they're just not you don't work out
[2:31:57 - 2:32:02] ▶
to work at Boeing if you're like some super allegedly what's that allegedly allegedly I don't
[2:32:02 - 2:32:07] ▶
I don't know how I don't know how it works if it's being done like that covertly you know it's like
[2:32:08 - 2:32:14] ▶
the secrecy must be like so good you know and so like assuming like that mental model is correct
[2:32:14 - 2:32:21] ▶
then like it's it's in a lot of these people's best interests to actually start to like share this
[2:32:22 - 2:32:27] ▶
stuff like get get in front of the topic and I think that's been happening and I think that explains
[2:32:27 - 2:32:34] ▶
actually a lot of the last you know seven years of disclosure but I think it's not maybe happening
[2:32:34 - 2:32:41] ▶
fast enough for you know these companies aren't coordinating well enough and yeah so yeah I think
[2:32:41 - 2:32:48] ▶
you just have to ask yourself that question is you know is this is this are you being hushed because
[2:32:48 - 2:32:52] ▶
of like you know pure profit or whatever but I'm skeptical of the idea that these things like
[2:32:52 - 2:32:58] ▶
our profit centers now you know I think I think in for in the world in which again these companies
[2:32:58 - 2:33:04] ▶
have like craft I don't think we like understand fully how they fly I think I think they're like
[2:33:04 - 2:33:09] ▶
real challenges to like working them fully that also doesn't just have to be profit though there can
[2:33:09 - 2:33:16] ▶
be other variables so we could go on long tangents about that perhaps for stupid reasons they're
[2:33:16 - 2:33:21] ▶
just like what the public can't know about that and like again it comes down to a judgment call
[2:33:21 - 2:33:25] ▶
I don't envy that position as far as I know no I don't even I've never been in that position for
[2:33:25 - 2:33:30] ▶
I don't think I know they were told by the CIA to like do you the bidding you know to like like you
[2:33:30 - 2:33:35] ▶
guys are like that are plausible deniability right as the US government for being involved in this
[2:33:35 - 2:33:40] ▶
stuff I think a lot of them are patriotic people you know and then you know I do think probably you
[2:33:40 - 2:33:47] ▶
know what color crimes have like occurred but like they like they just like like the core like crash
[2:33:47 - 2:33:52] ▶
retrieval stuff I don't know how you do it differently in retrospect I don't know you know and again
[2:33:52 - 2:33:58] ▶
this is all based on these kind of hypotheticals but like I could see you know a lot of the just basic
[2:33:58 - 2:34:05] ▶
core legacy program and like hiding that being somewhat forgivable and then I think a lot of you
[2:34:05 - 2:34:13] ▶
know the fuckery like around you know siops and stuff and driving certain people crazy and you
[2:34:13 - 2:34:19] ▶
know that marginalizing people based on their experience like all that's horrible yeah it's terrible
[2:34:19 - 2:34:23] ▶
yeah and that should be you know addressed in like a real in a real way but and that's also something
[2:34:23 - 2:34:28] ▶
your boy grushed bravely I think brought up yeah and that's that's a really you know that stuff
[2:34:28 - 2:34:36] ▶
bothers me that these people's family should not be brought into these things and shit like that
[2:34:36 - 2:34:40] ▶
but we've been putting it off all day let's let's go there on grush yeah I just got to take a piss
[2:34:40 - 2:34:46] ▶
first okay cool cool let's stop for one second and we'll be right back all right we're back
[2:34:46 - 2:34:53] ▶
David grush yeah so you knew him before he went public and everything happened you know what in the
[2:34:53 - 2:35:01] ▶
name of CIA are you doing around him I actually was in a venture capital context like I was looking
[2:35:01 - 2:35:09] ▶
at a company that was like in space it actually had come out of space force like the guy who started
[2:35:09 - 2:35:16] ▶
it was an officer in the space force and he started a company in this area and I was diligenceing
[2:35:16 - 2:35:23] ▶
it and I was talking to him about you know his company but all you know at the end of my diligence
[2:35:23 - 2:35:28] ▶
I was like came in like I'm also really into this other stuff I'm really into you up by the thing
[2:35:28 - 2:35:33] ▶
I know you're like you know you've been around the block when it comes to space
[2:35:33 - 2:35:36] ▶
and he was like yeah like I'm look I'm a believer but I don't know that much like I you know
[2:35:38 - 2:35:46] ▶
there are limits to my knowledge and like you could tell I was deep on it and he was like I have
[2:35:46 - 2:35:49] ▶
somebody you should probably meet and so that's when he introduced me to grush what yours this was
[2:35:49 - 2:35:55] ▶
I guess two years before I put out the thing in July of 23 so 21 when I met him
[2:35:55 - 2:36:01] ▶
yeah where'd you meet him I met him initially at my house that my buddy who's in the space force
[2:36:02 - 2:36:09] ▶
brought him over to my to my spot and it was really like a trip for me because
[2:36:09 - 2:36:15] ▶
I was like I don't know man you're so used to meeting like these like really like snake oily people
[2:36:16 - 2:36:22] ▶
and like you're I don't know you're you're bringing up all sorts of things but like
[2:36:22 - 2:36:27] ▶
I don't know a lot a lot of people in the UFO world they're just like they're just full of shit
[2:36:27 - 2:36:31] ▶
and they and they just speak in these sort of like super hokey ways and he really like broke that
[2:36:31 - 2:36:36] ▶
pattern I was like whoa this guy's like what about him broke that up he's like clearly like mildly
[2:36:36 - 2:36:41] ▶
autistic like not you know all the way but like he's a little autistic like very high attention to
[2:36:41 - 2:36:47] ▶
detail extreme like truth seeking and very sincere too and so I think you know all of those
[2:36:47 - 2:36:57] ▶
things combine he's just like I just broke the pattern you know did he tell you everything
[2:36:57 - 2:37:03] ▶
that he later has told us publicly at that meeting did he tell me everything that he later yeah
[2:37:03 - 2:37:10] ▶
like oh oh oh it was like there has been a crash retrieval program
[2:37:11 - 2:37:14] ▶
he was really high level in that first meeting I think he was kind of assessing me out but he was like
[2:37:16 - 2:37:19] ▶
there's it hinted like hey you know I think you might be on to something there might be more
[2:37:20 - 2:37:25] ▶
here than you know meets the eye but you know he wasn't he was still in the government at the time
[2:37:25 - 2:37:29] ▶
so he was very cagey around what he could share but it was clear like you know when he speaks to
[2:37:29 - 2:37:34] ▶
somebody you see like the resonance in their eye like I'm decent at like picking cues up like that
[2:37:34 - 2:37:39] ▶
and like I came out still pretty like pumped because I was like that guy like got a lot of the
[2:37:39 - 2:37:45] ▶
fringy shit I was saying so I was like there's some like recognition in his eyes that like I could
[2:37:45 - 2:37:52] ▶
just detect he's also definitely clearly a very highly intelligent guy yeah he's become like a
[2:37:52 - 2:38:00] ▶
really good buddy and like he's he's next level intelligent he's really really smart did he
[2:38:00 - 2:38:05] ▶
hint at all and whether it was that meeting or your earliest meetings whatever they were did he
[2:38:05 - 2:38:10] ▶
talk about the idea that like hey I'm gonna go public with this at some point not then but I got to
[2:38:10 - 2:38:19] ▶
know him a bit actually decently well before he came out and he was he seemed extremely frustrated
[2:38:19 - 2:38:28] ▶
at like trying to like kind of reform things from within and it was clear at one point that like you
[2:38:28 - 2:38:34] ▶
know it's like he's experiencing much of reprisals basically like you know blowback around his
[2:38:34 - 2:38:42] ▶
investigations and he was like I got I got to get out you know I got I got to go public basically
[2:38:42 - 2:38:47] ▶
like for his own immunity and like so he could actually like affect any sort of change on this
[2:38:47 - 2:38:51] ▶
what did what do you mean like he was trying to reform things from within I don't
[2:38:51 - 2:38:55] ▶
know the actual specifics but my sense was that the initial strategy was like discover this stuff
[2:38:56 - 2:39:03] ▶
bring it to the right people in charge and then try to like engage in the proper reforms
[2:39:03 - 2:39:09] ▶
around it like you know reorganize the the the legacy stuff create academic programs around this
[2:39:09 - 2:39:14] ▶
so like it's like you know um the nuclear stuff it's like nuclear physics should not be classified
[2:39:14 - 2:39:20] ▶
right but like nuclear trade secret should be classified like these obvious things and I think he
[2:39:20 - 2:39:26] ▶
was sort of trying to like affect this change from the inside like hey we're not we're not in front
[2:39:26 - 2:39:31] ▶
of this issue at all like we need to be like more forward minded on this and I think he just wasn't
[2:39:31 - 2:39:36] ▶
getting any there I think he was sort of spinning his wheels I think you know superiors and colleagues
[2:39:36 - 2:39:42] ▶
were doing all sorts of you know dirty things and yeah I think he basically was like I got I got
[2:39:42 - 2:39:49] ▶
a blow the lid on this did he discuss with you and I'm gonna come back to some of the specific
[2:39:49 - 2:39:53] ▶
things he said for people out there who haven't heard it but did he discuss with you some of the
[2:39:53 - 2:39:59] ▶
threats or the fearfulness surrounding both him and his family that made like the blowback that
[2:39:59 - 2:40:08] ▶
was keeping him up at night at that time yeah he he touched on it yeah he was he touched on uh you
[2:40:09 - 2:40:16] ▶
know I think certain shots across the bow that uh he he and his family got that we're pretty
[2:40:16 - 2:40:21] ▶
unnerving it's unnerving obviously for him extremely unnerving and then unnerving for me to hear
[2:40:21 - 2:40:27] ▶
as well because I'm like man we're in communication and like I'm kind of looking into the stuff too and
[2:40:27 - 2:40:33] ▶
you know so yeah it was uh I think it was a very precarious time pre him coming out because you
[2:40:34 - 2:40:40] ▶
know you don't have immunity nobody knows who you are you know and so if they're gonna engage
[2:40:40 - 2:40:46] ▶
in retaliation it was like pre July of 23 not after I think now it would be much harder for them to
[2:40:46 - 2:40:52] ▶
do that what why do you think he minus the the clear understanding of the knowledge of the subject
[2:40:52 - 2:40:59] ▶
that you had and you know you're a friendly guy too what why do you think he trusted you and gave
[2:40:59 - 2:41:04] ▶
you all this and and the reason I asked that is because at the time you're not a public figure you
[2:41:04 - 2:41:10] ▶
don't have the YouTube channel and like if you wanted to toss on a paranoia brain from his end
[2:41:10 - 2:41:16] ▶
because obviously things were happening in in in his world you're investing Peter Teel's money the
[2:41:16 - 2:41:21] ▶
guy who owns Palantir you know like you could make you could make some some conclusions they're like
[2:41:21 - 2:41:27] ▶
why the fuck am I being walked into this guy's house why why do you think he he was like you know
[2:41:27 - 2:41:31] ▶
what I fuck with you Jesse I think it was two things I think it was one like just genuine social
[2:41:31 - 2:41:38] ▶
rapport I think or maybe three things to like a respect for how far I had gone in like open source
[2:41:38 - 2:41:45] ▶
techniques like just like discovering a lot of this stuff on my own where I think yeah you
[2:41:45 - 2:41:52] ▶
know you should give credit where it's due where yeah they're guys who are like you know extremely
[2:41:52 - 2:41:57] ▶
deep like you know Richard Dolan for example yes I'm trying to think of you know other other guys
[2:41:57 - 2:42:04] ▶
you know back in the day it would would have been like Stanton Friedman or Leonard Stringfield or
[2:42:04 - 2:42:08] ▶
whatever guys who you just have to give your props to as far as like knowledge on this stuff
[2:42:08 - 2:42:12] ▶
um I think those guys are often like way stronger than me like on like an amalgamation of facts
[2:42:13 - 2:42:19] ▶
and sightings like they just have more of it I think as far as like theory I'm I'm pretty deep
[2:42:19 - 2:42:24] ▶
on this stuff so I think there was like a mutual respect there uh in like coming to the same
[2:42:24 - 2:42:30] ▶
conclusions and then I think it was also uh kind of a trust building process where uh I don't know
[2:42:30 - 2:42:37] ▶
if he would have hit well first of all he was trying to put this out through like mainstream media
[2:42:37 - 2:42:42] ▶
initially and the Washington Post and New York Times kind of shout the bet and didn't end up
[2:42:42 - 2:42:48] ▶
running with the story and so I I don't especially New York Times I don't know why um I think
[2:42:48 - 2:42:56] ▶
you know I spoke to Leslie Cane about it because Leslie Cane broke the story for the Debrit but she's
[2:42:56 - 2:43:00] ▶
a New York Times staff writer right so she wanted to do it through New York Times and I think what's
[2:43:00 - 2:43:06] ▶
the guy's name uh is it Julian Barnes Jardge uh I think they're like they're like Intel editor or
[2:43:06 - 2:43:15] ▶
whatever or like national security editor um like I think he's just like kind of anti the UFO thing
[2:43:15 - 2:43:22] ▶
right and so I also I think like none of the 40 people could come forward like to directly to
[2:43:22 - 2:43:30] ▶
the New York Times and I think like they they doubted that the whole thing is actually absurd
[2:43:30 - 2:43:34] ▶
because you have colleagues of grushes coming out you published the 2017 stuff why wouldn't you
[2:43:34 - 2:43:39] ▶
grush that's total double double standard right there but like second of all you have like
[2:43:40 - 2:43:45] ▶
pretty unimpeachable colleagues of grushes guys like Carl Nell who set up army futures command
[2:43:46 - 2:43:51] ▶
and you know and and others saying like you know this guy's like legit and and and defending his
[2:43:52 - 2:43:58] ▶
credentials and then grush coming out and saying what he's saying that itself is a story and you can
[2:43:58 - 2:44:04] ▶
caveat it with whatever you want if you're the New York Times but to me not publishing that
[2:44:04 - 2:44:09] ▶
shows like a prima facia a prior dissinterest or bias that's weird uh it doesn't make sense
[2:44:09 - 2:44:16] ▶
you can say like we don't know and and xyz need to be corroborated but you have the ici g tomis
[2:44:16 - 2:44:22] ▶
monheim saying this is urgent and credible that's him that's not you and then you have his credentials
[2:44:22 - 2:44:27] ▶
being sort of backed up and so I don't I can't answer that like why they didn't publish it but then
[2:44:27 - 2:44:32] ▶
I think it was this thing where he was feeling really burned by like the mainstream media and he's
[2:44:32 - 2:44:36] ▶
like oh my friend jesse yeah he is like a smaller channel but like he's really deep on this stuff
[2:44:36 - 2:44:42] ▶
he's high conviction on it excellent it was so by the way thanks man I want with him to appreciate that
[2:44:42 - 2:44:47] ▶
yeah it was it was fun to make that one felt like really like uh I don't know it was like a
[2:44:47 - 2:44:52] ▶
beautiful moment like I was I was pumped to do it for him and for the whole kind of movement
[2:44:52 - 2:44:56] ▶
yeah yeah yeah it's a the thing that keeps coming into my head is some of these stories I've
[2:44:57 - 2:45:02] ▶
heard from behind the scenes where intel comes in says don't do that yeah and that would
[2:45:02 - 2:45:10] ▶
especially considering lezzlies there like that's what I'm thinking especially also given that he
[2:45:11 - 2:45:17] ▶
was getting reprisals behind the scenes so people weren't happy about this there's clearly some
[2:45:17 - 2:45:21] ▶
sort of internal war war into the government and I don't know if I know the exact fault lines but
[2:45:21 - 2:45:26] ▶
it's clear there's some some you know part of the government does not want this out another you
[2:45:26 - 2:45:32] ▶
know really really does in a limited sense and over time there's nobody that I think is full
[2:45:32 - 2:45:38] ▶
I'd snowed on this I yes and they were talking about this before camera I agree yeah so um I think
[2:45:38 - 2:45:45] ▶
it's a war between those two sides I'm I'm definitely on the side of like I again not knowing
[2:45:45 - 2:45:51] ▶
ontological truth or whatever and being on the outside uh I'm on the side of like I don't see any
[2:45:51 - 2:45:57] ▶
reason I've been given no reasons outside of like these rumors you hear guys like Jeremy Corbell
[2:45:57 - 2:46:02] ▶
or like Ross Colter are really like supposedly in touch with people like in and around the actual
[2:46:02 - 2:46:07] ▶
program this is like they always say like you know we get deep we get super deep with these people
[2:46:07 - 2:46:12] ▶
and like they they all say the same thing at the end of the conversation which is if you knew what
[2:46:12 - 2:46:15] ▶
I know you wouldn't be proud of this clearly you know you hear that over and over again and so I'm
[2:46:15 - 2:46:20] ▶
not inclined to dismiss it like I think um there are there's a credulousness to that world sometimes
[2:46:20 - 2:46:27] ▶
of reporting but I also think they're doing good work and like it's you know it's it's important to
[2:46:27 - 2:46:32] ▶
not throw the baby out with the bath water and kind of parse the good from the bad um you know I
[2:46:33 - 2:46:38] ▶
think I think some of the stuff that they're that they're bringing out is really good and then
[2:46:38 - 2:46:41] ▶
sometimes it's a little indiscriminate at times or whatever but you're you're idea though that
[2:46:41 - 2:46:45] ▶
it's like pieces of the government certain people know certain things about certain topics and
[2:46:45 - 2:46:51] ▶
then they don't know about these other 50 topics the same thing for this other team over here but
[2:46:51 - 2:46:56] ▶
they don't know about this one you know what I mean like there's there's this compartmentalization
[2:46:56 - 2:47:00] ▶
that happens and then maybe there's very few who are actually like individuals literally who are
[2:47:00 - 2:47:06] ▶
like read in on on most of it therefore the secret is kept in all these different places where you
[2:47:06 - 2:47:12] ▶
need all of it together to really make sense of it and frankly the same people who are saying if
[2:47:12 - 2:47:17] ▶
you knew what I knew well they only know one piece out of the 200 that would be my strong bias
[2:47:17 - 2:47:23] ▶
is like you meet some of these people with like you know hardcore intel credentials or whatever
[2:47:23 - 2:47:29] ▶
and like I just don't think like they have the epistemic ability like yeah you might have like
[2:47:29 - 2:47:35] ▶
a treasure trove of data proving that this stuff is real like tons of crashes here and like you
[2:47:35 - 2:47:40] ▶
know this thing was detected here and what you know whatever but I think that and like
[2:47:40 - 2:47:46] ▶
you know the ability to like on like holistically have like a world view like an expanded world
[2:47:47 - 2:47:53] ▶
view like a metaphysical understanding of reality is like very different and I think you can be
[2:47:53 - 2:47:59] ▶
outside the government have into like clear intuitions around that you know even that are even
[2:47:59 - 2:48:04] ▶
greater and more kind of top of the pyramid so to speak they're more kind of there's more
[2:48:04 - 2:48:09] ▶
conciliance and more interdomain knowledge and connections you're making than like the dude that
[2:48:09 - 2:48:13] ▶
like handled the thing in this one situation or like you know went through these XYZ files and like
[2:48:13 - 2:48:19] ▶
they're sure that like reality is weirder than we realize that the government has some handle on it
[2:48:19 - 2:48:25] ▶
but they don't I don't think have like this like clear picture like what's going on
[2:48:25 - 2:48:29] ▶
and that's why you know I found it really interesting there's a story this guy Robert Sardbacher
[2:48:30 - 2:48:35] ▶
who you know was in touch with Wilbert Smith who is a you know a there's written correspondence
[2:48:35 - 2:48:42] ▶
between the two Wilbert Smith is this you know a Canadian engineer and Sardbacher is this American
[2:48:42 - 2:48:49] ▶
engineer and he's this nuclear expert and he is running the Washington National Labs he's close
[2:48:49 - 2:48:57] ▶
with towns and brown is doing the gravity stuff and I think he's in on the UFO stuff too in 1987
[2:48:57 - 2:49:05] ▶
he writes to William Steinman who's this UFO researcher saying you know the rumors around the
[2:49:05 - 2:49:10] ▶
UFO crashes are essentially true or substantially true or whatever and he says you know John Von
[2:49:10 - 2:49:16] ▶
Neumann and Vannevar Bush were involved in these things like he goes on to like you know list names
[2:49:16 - 2:49:20] ▶
and maybe he was speaking in sort of coded fashion you know I think he says fundamentally true
[2:49:21 - 2:49:26] ▶
or substantially true and that can sometimes mean you're true on the surface level but you're
[2:49:26 - 2:49:30] ▶
wrong on the underlying details or whatever but I think he was you know maybe
[2:49:30 - 2:49:35] ▶
somewhat you know involved in all this stuff and anyways he you know says he wasn't fully
[2:49:37 - 2:49:42] ▶
read into the program but he points people who come to him and again in the 80s like you know later
[2:49:42 - 2:49:48] ▶
later in his life to this guy Eric Walker who's an electrical engineer and the president of Penn
[2:49:48 - 2:49:54] ▶
State and Eric Walker according to him was part of this like MJ 12 lineage or whatever this
[2:49:54 - 2:50:01] ▶
like core group of UFO people and the first thing that Eric Walker asks you know the UFO that
[2:50:01 - 2:50:08] ▶
the inquirers as he goes what do you know about the six cents and they say what are you talking
[2:50:08 - 2:50:13] ▶
about and they're he's like what do you know about ESP extra sensory perception and then he says
[2:50:13 - 2:50:17] ▶
you're chasing windmills like it's like literally your epistemic aperture is incapable of the
[2:50:17 - 2:50:23] ▶
disclosure it's not like disclosure is like this like semantic information it's not like this
[2:50:23 - 2:50:27] ▶
file that he can just give you it's like you're literally like you're you're chasing your tail you
[2:50:27 - 2:50:32] ▶
have no idea right what you're dealing with like you're like almost like not even like able to
[2:50:32 - 2:50:37] ▶
comprehend this stuff and that that's always stuck with me because I do think it's like a it's like
[2:50:37 - 2:50:45] ▶
a you know knowledge on this stuff is like a drip but it comes from something higher it's not coming
[2:50:45 - 2:50:51] ▶
necessarily from the government or whatever like if you're if you're focused on that drip good
[2:50:51 - 2:50:56] ▶
luck it's gonna take like a long time you're gonna get like you know little bits and pieces or whatever
[2:50:56 - 2:51:02] ▶
along with everybody else over the next 10 years or whatever but you know I think I think developing
[2:51:02 - 2:51:06] ▶
your own epistemic aperture is like this really crucial thing in this in this in this whole story
[2:51:06 - 2:51:13] ▶
and so yeah I think that's like a very telling a telling story that it's it's really about your
[2:51:14 - 2:51:19] ▶
own epistemics in some ways more so then yeah and then you you you have the people like grush
[2:51:19 - 2:51:25] ▶
though who have access to things and find it yes and you know what's the term epistemic aperture
[2:51:25 - 2:51:32] ▶
yeah yeah yeah yeah he develops his own epistemic aperture you know he's he's a good example he's
[2:51:32 - 2:51:37] ▶
got both he's got yeah yeah yeah sorry for my knowing I tell you spend a lot of time around
[2:51:37 - 2:51:44] ▶
Eric Weinstein exactly I got it from him yeah yeah that whole that the whole that whole universe is
[2:51:44 - 2:51:52] ▶
a lot of it's its own lexicon of words but yeah I think he's a good example both I think he has like
[2:51:52 - 2:52:03] ▶
you know really creative mind and like is really strong on like theory as well as like he clearly
[2:52:03 - 2:52:10] ▶
is like has a lot of actual hardcore info well but before I ask the next question just for the people
[2:52:10 - 2:52:16] ▶
out there listening who need to be rehashed on some of the things he revealed or haven't heard it
[2:52:16 - 2:52:22] ▶
before I know most people obviously have heard this can you just review that like the highlights of
[2:52:22 - 2:52:27] ▶
what he revealed and then I have a question about some of those findings yeah sure so grush yes
[2:52:27 - 2:52:31] ▶
basically his findings are we have had a legacy crash retrieval program that goes back not only
[2:52:32 - 2:52:38] ▶
to Roswell but to 1933 this magenta crash in Italy that basically aerospace companies have been
[2:52:38 - 2:52:47] ▶
involved in this various aerospace companies since then they've not always been subject to kind
[2:52:47 - 2:52:54] ▶
of traditional government oversight and FOIA the clearance system that you know classifies this stuff
[2:52:54 - 2:52:59] ▶
is the you know NPQ you know DOE clearance system the atomic energy stuff not you know normal
[2:52:59 - 2:53:06] ▶
national security you know top secret TSSI like that that that sort of line is not applicable here
[2:53:06 - 2:53:13] ▶
some presidents don't even have a need to know and that you have these kind of vulcanized you know
[2:53:13 - 2:53:18] ▶
again corporate entities that are engaging in like trying to like reverse engineer these crafts
[2:53:18 - 2:53:23] ▶
any brought forward 40 people who worked on these programs to the inspector general you know
[2:53:24 - 2:53:32] ▶
the intelligence community inspector general and so those those are his claims and he claims that
[2:53:32 - 2:53:36] ▶
non-human biologics came with the crafts or piloted the crafts as well and that the materials
[2:53:36 - 2:53:43] ▶
and the crafts contain heavy elements so elements with isotope ratios that don't exist on earth
[2:53:43 - 2:53:49] ▶
but heavy elements elements like you know in places on the periodic table where you can't use
[2:53:49 - 2:53:55] ▶
centrifuges to mess with the you know the isotopes like it would be extremely hard to manipulate these
[2:53:55 - 2:54:03] ▶
uh you know if you're just a random scientist um so yes and pretty bombshell claims yeah a lot
[2:54:03 - 2:54:10] ▶
so our very first phone conversation we have we got into this long talk about what
[2:54:10 - 2:54:16] ▶
what could it like how grudge could be telling the truth but set up to do it and and I've talked
[2:54:18 - 2:54:24] ▶
about this on other podcasts and I've said I really want Jesse in here to explain it from his lens
[2:54:24 - 2:54:28] ▶
because I'll explain a lot better but what I had asked you on the phone was like is it possible
[2:54:28 - 2:54:33] ▶
that you have someone who is both curious and smart like grudge who within the levers of government
[2:54:33 - 2:54:41] ▶
is identified as a oh that's a dude who's gonna look into some stuff that's given the opportunity
[2:54:41 - 2:54:46] ▶
is it possible that as a part of some sort of sirep if you will there were a lot of nuts left on a
[2:54:46 - 2:54:53] ▶
trail for what they deemed to be the squirrel grudge for him to pick up and run with to go out and
[2:54:53 - 2:54:59] ▶
disclose things that actually aren't true to which you gave me an answer the short answer of no
[2:54:59 - 2:55:05] ▶
I don't think that I think there's too much here but what's what what was the full logic there
[2:55:05 - 2:55:11] ▶
that made you go there's too much here for that to be the case yeah well I just knowing him and
[2:55:11 - 2:55:17] ▶
like how detour it didn't like you know artistically like obsessed with like detail I think
[2:55:17 - 2:55:23] ▶
is one thing there's you know possibility like they're you know trying to and some super coordinated
[2:55:24 - 2:55:31] ▶
fashion sending him down the wrong path but like I asked him that in my interview with him like on
[2:55:31 - 2:55:35] ▶
a you know in our show and he was like yeah but like I had other people back channel with the
[2:55:35 - 2:55:41] ▶
people talking to me and like those people did like they'd intersected with my my own career from
[2:55:41 - 2:55:46] ▶
like decades prior or whatever or a decade prior and like you know they wouldn't lie to me and
[2:55:46 - 2:55:53] ▶
they especially wouldn't because they don't know each other they wouldn't be able to like coordinate
[2:55:53 - 2:55:57] ▶
to that level and so like I just I think that's like you know it's I asked him and he was like I'm 99
[2:55:57 - 2:56:05] ▶
percent sure that did so like even he's thinking probabilistically one percent yes but you know I
[2:56:05 - 2:56:11] ▶
just yeah I don't know I don't I don't think that's that's likely and then you have all the like
[2:56:11 - 2:56:15] ▶
Robert Hastings like just like the UFOs and Nuke stuff where it's all the open store stuff just
[2:56:15 - 2:56:21] ▶
weirdly comports with the classified stuff so again if you're like a freakishly good counterintel
[2:56:21 - 2:56:28] ▶
person or whatever and maybe you're trying to trick rush and trick rush and to trick me or whatever
[2:56:28 - 2:56:34] ▶
um maybe you comport all of the internal stuff you fabricate internal documents to like look like
[2:56:35 - 2:56:41] ▶
the open source stuff in a way that like you know it all coheres perfectly but Teal's answer
[2:56:41 - 2:56:48] ▶
in the phone a volunteer like I got trust the guy but like it's like if you're if you're trying to
[2:56:48 - 2:56:57] ▶
if you're trying to do that then I mean first of all like it's whoever do this like grandmaster
[2:56:57 - 2:57:05] ▶
job genius genius like incredible job um but I just don't see it and I see like the amount of
[2:57:05 - 2:57:12] ▶
like disparate it's like take this pathway of like reasoning right you have Robert Hastings UFOs
[2:57:12 - 2:57:18] ▶
and Nuke's you have an extremely credible database of 170 people who do not get into this job
[2:57:18 - 2:57:26] ▶
due to any sort of historic electronic attention seeking desire for UFO you know for for
[2:57:26 - 2:57:31] ▶
themselves they don't want to be famous you know uh and UFOs keep showing up around our most
[2:57:31 - 2:57:37] ▶
precious important assets and every time they do the Air Force Office of Special Investigations shows
[2:57:37 - 2:57:42] ▶
up and they threaten them and say we're gonna screw with your career and you know swear them to
[2:57:42 - 2:57:48] ▶
secrecy and in certain cases the people get deleted from the government like Bob Jacobs and then
[2:57:48 - 2:57:53] ▶
their superiors later have to say they were real okay so what happened when Bob Jacobs they said
[2:57:53 - 2:57:58] ▶
they said he never worked at Vandenberg and he's a photo instrumentation specialist there then 64
[2:57:58 - 2:58:03] ▶
sees this you know um UFO wrapping around this dummy nuclear Atlas V Warhead and so um you know
[2:58:03 - 2:58:10] ▶
you hear these stories over and over and over again and then then you could still say right like okay
[2:58:10 - 2:58:16] ▶
it's credible database like these people are really smart and high agency but like maybe it's like
[2:58:16 - 2:58:21] ▶
still this like US deep state thing and like they like somehow like prime all the the nuclear
[2:58:21 - 2:58:26] ▶
people and like it's this you know maybe let's like this pro like you know trying to like
[2:58:26 - 2:58:31] ▶
make people think that were protected by the aliens or something by this is like orbs are showing
[2:58:31 - 2:58:36] ▶
I don't know some you can spin some tall tail but then you get into the fact that there are
[2:58:36 - 2:58:42] ▶
nuclear there are UFO sightings in Barra Loché in Argentina because there's a civilian nuclear
[2:58:42 - 2:58:47] ▶
grid there and there's literally a town in Japan in in Eno in in right in Fukushima next to the
[2:58:47 - 2:58:55] ▶
prefecture where they have all their nuclear energy that is like dedicated to UFOs and there's
[2:58:55 - 2:59:00] ▶
a museum there that's all around UFOs and so like you hear enough of this stuff and you're like
[2:59:00 - 2:59:06] ▶
there is a there there I don't like anybody that's like this isn't worthy of investigation I'm like
[2:59:06 - 2:59:11] ▶
you just have like bad Bayesian reasoning like you have this a priori bucket that you just put
[2:59:11 - 2:59:16] ▶
like you put this stuff into you put it in the impossible bucket you don't look at it you're not
[2:59:16 - 2:59:21] ▶
looking at it earnestly like you didn't listen to what I just said if you actually take in the fact
[2:59:21 - 2:59:26] ▶
pattern that I just gave then you have to think the stuff is real and then yeah is that there
[2:59:26 - 2:59:32] ▶
are possibility there's some mastermind being like and somehow atomic secrecy is overlaying this
[2:59:32 - 2:59:38] ▶
stuff and like these scientists were involved in the Australians also thought they were involved
[2:59:38 - 2:59:42] ▶
and like you know magnesium bismuth is showing up here but it's also in the towns and brown so
[2:59:43 - 2:59:48] ▶
like it maybe I don't know but like I don't know that's that feels that feels like all of a sudden
[2:59:48 - 2:59:55] ▶
if that's your null hypothesis the null hypothesis becomes more of a stretch more of a logical stretch
[2:59:55 - 3:00:01] ▶
than just there's some intelligence here that's not human that all of a sudden becomes a more
[3:00:01 - 3:00:07] ▶
epistemically acceptable base case and actually like if you're what are you saying you're saying
[3:00:08 - 3:00:13] ▶
there's some cabal that's controlling barrel Ocea controlling Japan and controlling our nuclear
[3:00:13 - 3:00:18] ▶
assets like what are you actually proposing if you look at the real fact pattern and so I I don't
[3:00:18 - 3:00:25] ▶
see too many people like if you had like Sean Kirkpatrick on like the old head of arrow yep
[3:00:25 - 3:00:29] ▶
he's not like earnestly engaging with these like you know nuclear cases or whatever like there is
[3:00:30 - 3:00:35] ▶
clearly a connection there and so like that yeah that's that's that's all I need to know there's
[3:00:35 - 3:00:41] ▶
like something clearly very very real here and then like all the grouch stuff just like backs that
[3:00:41 - 3:00:46] ▶
up it like coheres with it like pretty perfectly and then let's like what okay is you think it's a
[3:00:46 - 3:00:51] ▶
sia up like to what end to what end is it like purely a sia up you know purely yeah yeah like maybe
[3:00:51 - 3:00:57] ▶
maybe you know there are people in this movement or whatever in the UFO disclosure movement with
[3:00:57 - 3:01:03] ▶
ulterior motives maybe part of its adversary signaling maybe part of its tech protection maybe
[3:01:03 - 3:01:07] ▶
part of its refresh the talent pool on some secret science programs maybe it's like you get
[3:01:07 - 3:01:11] ▶
out think of a whole host of things that like our interior ulterior motives that you're gonna like
[3:01:11 - 3:01:16] ▶
push this stuff with having said that just the the the the fact pattern itself I think is just
[3:01:16 - 3:01:25] ▶
undeniable and kind of unimpeachable and that that's what interests me and like I have a sense of
[3:01:25 - 3:01:31] ▶
some people doing some of the other stuff I don't want to talk about it because I just want to
[3:01:31 - 3:01:38] ▶
follow the truth right and I don't want to get I don't want to fuck with anybody I think it's
[3:01:38 - 3:01:42] ▶
probably dangerous enough to be looking into like the core ontological truth stuff and so I'm not
[3:01:42 - 3:01:46] ▶
trying to like you know and to you know maybe some of these sia ups or some of the you know some of
[3:01:46 - 3:01:51] ▶
these you know ulterior motives are like it's not my it's not my my motive is like the truth but
[3:01:51 - 3:01:56] ▶
like I don't I don't want to fuck with somebody having some you know trying to you know maintain
[3:01:56 - 3:02:02] ▶
Americans supremacy in some of these areas like whatever you're you're you're and you're also
[3:02:02 - 3:02:07] ▶
within the community itself it's clear and it comes across in this conversation but also in your
[3:02:07 - 3:02:10] ▶
actions that I've seen online now for a long time like you're you're a peaceful true seeker in this
[3:02:10 - 3:02:16] ▶
way you know you're not trying to get in the middle of some of the much of the bullshit drama that
[3:02:16 - 3:02:20] ▶
happens like in UFO Twitter and stuff like that it's about like okay if there's people who
[3:02:20 - 3:02:26] ▶
allegedly have access to some information here let's hear them out let's talk with them I don't
[3:02:26 - 3:02:31] ▶
care who they fuck with and who they don't fuck with like you know it's what it is and we we need
[3:02:31 - 3:02:36] ▶
that in order for the space to be taken seriously we need that and it seems like
[3:02:36 - 3:02:41] ▶
well I think you guys straight up said it so it's more than it seems like you also
[3:02:43 - 3:02:47] ▶
were able to turn around your colleague Eric Weinstein into looking into this because for a long time
[3:02:48 - 3:02:55] ▶
he was like you'll fuck that yeah so what was it there really it's it's not like he's out there saying
[3:02:55 - 3:02:59] ▶
oh the aliens are here yeah but he's he's looking at it in an educated questioning true seeking way
[3:02:59 - 3:03:05] ▶
it seems at this point what what what conversation changed that what what what action changed that to
[3:03:05 - 3:03:10] ▶
where suddenly he's like all right Jesse I think two things happen for him one is he started to become
[3:03:10 - 3:03:18] ▶
more public about his physics theory of everything the geometric unity stuff which I think he'd
[3:03:18 - 3:03:22] ▶
presented in Oxford it in like 2013 but like you'd have the people being like this is this is it
[3:03:22 - 3:03:28] ▶
and then the other half is like I don't know what he said and I know and like it you know kind of like
[3:03:28 - 3:03:33] ▶
he developed it and then he went on Rogan and he sort of published it again and I think the combo
[3:03:33 - 3:03:39] ▶
of him presenting it and like they're being nobody to like corroborate or falsify it like it's
[3:03:39 - 3:03:44] ▶
like he can't talk to anybody about this stuff and then he starts to get into like this very
[3:03:44 - 3:03:49] ▶
interesting other angle to the UFO thing which is like these guys like John Wheeler and Bryce
[3:03:49 - 3:03:54] ▶
to wit working on science that might have not met the eye this is like idea of the golden age of
[3:03:54 - 3:04:00] ▶
relativity and this kind of like you know extreme interest in the gravity stuff in the 50s and so
[3:04:00 - 3:04:05] ▶
he's like in his mind thinking maybe I've figured some stuff out on my own but maybe some other
[3:04:05 - 3:04:11] ▶
people have gotten there before me maybe there's some program around this what's going on and he
[3:04:11 - 3:04:15] ▶
does a whole follow up you know Rogan episode it was not the one with Terrence Howard the one before
[3:04:15 - 3:04:20] ▶
it where he says some crazy things like Jim Simons of like Renaissance technology is February
[3:04:20 - 3:04:26] ▶
yeah 23 yeah he was like maybe there's some secret you know physics stuff going on there you
[3:04:26 - 3:04:30] ▶
have like the number you know it's the greatest concentration of differential geometers and stuff
[3:04:30 - 3:04:34] ▶
you know it's I don't know the best line in there is Micho Kaku yeah yeah Micho Kaku is not a control
[3:04:34 - 3:04:39] ▶
yeah he goes you see Joe just yeah he's like get me to Kaku and hero man Joe's like why yeah
[3:04:39 - 3:04:46] ▶
that's so funny yeah exactly exactly so he says he yeah so so he is you know there's a combo of
[3:04:47 - 3:04:56] ▶
like maybe these guys have figured out some of stuff that I've figured out yeah and maybe there's
[3:04:56 - 3:05:01] ▶
this whole like you know secret nationals and maybe maybe you know the physics that I've been
[3:05:01 - 3:05:06] ▶
working on has been like weaponized or something and then there's this confluence of that and the
[3:05:06 - 3:05:11] ▶
Pentagon admitting there are things in the sky that you know we don't know how to identify and you
[3:05:11 - 3:05:15] ▶
have these two Office of Naval Intelligence Reports I think one in 2020 and one in 2021 2021 and you
[3:05:15 - 3:05:22] ▶
have you know associated mainstream media articles and press around that and I do think you know
[3:05:22 - 3:05:28] ▶
Eric's a very heterodox first principles thinker but he also has to like walk this tight rope of like
[3:05:28 - 3:05:34] ▶
I have to maintain a level of respectability among like academics that I'm like trying to like
[3:05:34 - 3:05:39] ▶
spar with because he is on their level yes intellectually for sure like a bubble out of their level yes
[3:05:39 - 3:05:44] ▶
and like when I hear Sean Carroll being like oh like he doesn't even like I think coach
[3:05:44 - 3:05:49] ▶
I'm on glass and we're about Eric and he was like that guy's like an amateur he just has like
[3:05:49 - 3:05:52] ▶
pet theories where I mean he's like throwing him in with like Brian Green and a couple other yeah
[3:05:52 - 3:05:56] ▶
yeah you just shut up like what have you done yeah yeah like you're just like a pop quantum
[3:05:56 - 3:06:01] ▶
mechanics I mean yeah he's obviously extremely smart but like but like yeah you shouldn't do that
[3:06:01 - 3:06:07] ▶
you shouldn't like condescend you know yes and so anyways I think Eric that all of that's to say like
[3:06:07 - 3:06:12] ▶
I think he is very first principles but I do think there's a difference between Jesse his podcast
[3:06:12 - 3:06:18] ▶
partner and like venture guy at you know Teal Capital of course being like yo UFOs are real like
[3:06:18 - 3:06:25] ▶
look at this look at this that's different than like pentagon New York Times being like you know
[3:06:25 - 3:06:31] ▶
we just we don't know what this stuff is you know this stuff is this stuff is real and so I do think
[3:06:31 - 3:06:36] ▶
to his credit he immediately credited me with like okay you've been pushing like I thought you
[3:06:36 - 3:06:41] ▶
were like brain dead in this one area I appreciate pushing me on this for like a long time but I
[3:06:41 - 3:06:46] ▶
do think that allowed him to you know talk about it more publicly and like really take it more
[3:06:46 - 3:06:50] ▶
seriously yeah well I mean the other 500 pound elephant in the room here with all these things
[3:06:50 - 3:06:55] ▶
we're seeing in the sky is something I don't think it's come up a little bit today but not really
[3:06:55 - 3:07:00] ▶
directly and that is you know what could be weaponry yeah that we don't know about versus
[3:07:00 - 3:07:07] ▶
everything else I mean yeah for me a major case with that a guy as a witness who I've really liked
[3:07:07 - 3:07:15] ▶
is David Fraber yeah because he's very yeah matter of fact and he has the video on the screen
[3:07:15 - 3:07:20] ▶
he's like look this is what I do yeah this is my expertise yeah this is what I saw it went
[3:07:20 - 3:07:25] ▶
boom boom yeah I don't see tic-tacs I don't see shit like that doing that yeah that's not something
[3:07:25 - 3:07:32] ▶
that is a part of ours that I know about you know draw your own conclusions here I think it might
[3:07:32 - 3:07:36] ▶
be alien but like I don't know is it something else you know you could go way too deep with this
[3:07:36 - 3:07:41] ▶
and like get out of control the things you don't know but like I've heard from a lot of I guess
[3:07:41 - 3:07:48] ▶
people who might know something about something it's hard to say yeah that like DARPA for example
[3:07:48 - 3:07:54] ▶
yeah yeah could be 40 years ahead of us yeah in technology so when you see something like that where
[3:07:54 - 3:08:00] ▶
it is an unidentified aerial phenomenon right it's not we don't know if it's alien or not
[3:08:00 - 3:08:04] ▶
does your mind go towards for some of these things you know maybe that is our weaponry and most
[3:08:04 - 3:08:10] ▶
likely not in adversaries otherwise they'd have taken us over by now it's it's possible I've heard
[3:08:10 - 3:08:15] ▶
things to that effect I do think if you look at the actual observables of you know the tic-tac
[3:08:15 - 3:08:22] ▶
it's like it's extreme it's like a crazy maneuverability and like you know you're breaking basic
[3:08:22 - 3:08:29] ▶
conservation of momentum so it is it is like new physics or it's like a spoofing thing that like
[3:08:29 - 3:08:34] ▶
but then like how do you spoof the flair and then they say they have radar how do you spoof the
[3:08:34 - 3:08:39] ▶
flair the radar and the actual eyewitnesses yeah that's a lot of spoofing so then you're getting
[3:08:39 - 3:08:45] ▶
into like a crazy claim which is like we have like physics you know in deep black aerospace and so I
[3:08:45 - 3:08:52] ▶
just think that requires like a lot of follow-up and evidence of course but yeah I've heard certain
[3:08:52 - 3:08:57] ▶
people say that that might be the case and yeah I just don't I don't know what to think about it
[3:08:57 - 3:09:02] ▶
you know if that is the case it's of the towns and brown lineage would be my belief yeah
[3:09:02 - 3:09:09] ▶
my brain also will conspiratorial goes towards some of that operation paper clip and some of the
[3:09:09 - 3:09:16] ▶
things the Nazis were onto yeah you know because you basically saved like some of the worst people
[3:09:16 - 3:09:20] ▶
on the earth who just happened to be very smart yeah that's something you brought them over here
[3:09:20 - 3:09:24] ▶
we know some of them put us into fucking space and shit yeah and it's like what were they able to
[3:09:24 - 3:09:30] ▶
maneuver you brought up a lot of amazing research today about anti-gravity and and projects that
[3:09:30 - 3:09:35] ▶
were going on in the 50s and 60s but it starts in in Nazi Germany yeah yeah and that do you know
[3:09:35 - 3:09:41] ▶
about like comular stop have you heard of that so yeah have you heard comular stop film man so there's
[3:09:41 - 3:09:48] ▶
a this SS officer named Hans comular he's the most ruthless Nazi like Albert spear who's head of
[3:09:48 - 3:09:55] ▶
all armaments for the Nazis said you know Hans comular is the most ruthless unscrupulous guy I
[3:09:55 - 3:10:02] ▶
was forced to collaborate with and so you're talking about a Nazis worked with like Hitler and
[3:10:02 - 3:10:07] ▶
Gerbos and you know him learn and he's he's saying that this guy it's like the craziest most ruthless
[3:10:07 - 3:10:12] ▶
guy by 1945 Hans comular was in charge of all aerial armaments for the Nazis so the v2s a4s
[3:10:12 - 3:10:19] ▶
everything and he had this secret weapons program called comular stop or schgoda works and it
[3:10:19 - 3:10:26] ▶
was based in two places in checkless Savakia in Poland and a so modern day you know obviously
[3:10:26 - 3:10:31] ▶
there was these were Nazi occupied and you had these three scientists Richard Mita who was doing
[3:10:31 - 3:10:37] ▶
high voltage stuff which is very similar to what towns and brown was doing so you know similar
[3:10:37 - 3:10:41] ▶
experiments like you know kind of short distances high voltage you know maybe asymmetric capacitors
[3:10:41 - 3:10:47] ▶
you had Rudolph Schreiber who was this German technician who had a design for a flying saucer
[3:10:47 - 3:10:53] ▶
and you had another guy named Victor Schauberger who lived in Austria who we know he set in his
[3:10:53 - 3:10:59] ▶
diaries it says ery I think it was a letter to his son he says I'm in checkless Savakia and what
[3:10:59 - 3:11:03] ▶
I'm doing is top secret and this is in 1942 right after an SS officer knocked on his door
[3:11:03 - 3:11:08] ▶
and so you have all these guys kind of you know being housed in like these you know secret weapons
[3:11:08 - 3:11:15] ▶
programs in Poland and checkless Savakia a lot of it is actually underground and they're working
[3:11:15 - 3:11:20] ▶
on all sorts of crazy stuff and Mita had had a you know plant had designs for flying saucer all of
[3:11:20 - 3:11:28] ▶
these guys that I just mentioned had you know designs for flying saucer there's another guy named
[3:11:28 - 3:11:31] ▶
Henri Kwanda who's a Romanian got a engineer who was it was also under Nazi occupation he had a patent
[3:11:31 - 3:11:40] ▶
for a lenticular aerodyne saucer and he I think also ended up contributing to Schodaworks so
[3:11:40 - 3:11:47] ▶
Schodaworks was like a real thing and they were working on like the most advanced weaponry at the
[3:11:47 - 3:11:53] ▶
time and at the same time you had you know a food fighters which are these controlled balls of
[3:11:53 - 3:12:00] ▶
lightning they seem like you know they're intelligently repulsed or controlled or whatever
[3:12:00 - 3:12:04] ▶
with no vapor trails moving in and out of allied fighter flight pass and so I don't know if
[3:12:05 - 3:12:12] ▶
there's a connection between that and Schodaworks but Schodaworks was definitely doing some really
[3:12:12 - 3:12:18] ▶
crazy stuff I mean the rumors where they might have been working on you know flying saucer but
[3:12:18 - 3:12:23] ▶
there are also rumors have you heard of DeGlaka do you know what that is this legendary bell this
[3:12:23 - 3:12:28] ▶
German bell have you heard of that it's it's it looks like this sort of like egg shaped or bell shaped
[3:12:28 - 3:12:34] ▶
you know thing and there's a ceramic chamber on the inside it's metallic on the outside and you
[3:12:34 - 3:12:40] ▶
you use a lot you know extremely high voltage energy you create like a torsion field around
[3:12:40 - 3:12:46] ▶
this you know object you have a person go inside the object and you slow the inertial reference
[3:12:46 - 3:12:52] ▶
frame so gravity and time are coupled and so if you create you know the only ways to affect gravity
[3:12:52 - 3:12:59] ▶
are basically through mass and energy right so you have like a extremely big planet you're going to
[3:12:59 - 3:13:03] ▶
you know you have this gravitational and word force but maybe if you have like extremely high
[3:13:03 - 3:13:07] ▶
amounts of energy you can also create sort of like these synthetic gravitational effects and then
[3:13:07 - 3:13:13] ▶
you can maybe maybe mess with time as well if you think about it like the closer you move to a
[3:13:13 - 3:13:17] ▶
black hole you know time slows and so the idea would be create this sort of torsion field and you
[3:13:17 - 3:13:23] ▶
create this different inertial you know this different reference frame on the inside of the bell
[3:13:23 - 3:13:28] ▶
is on the outside and so time is actually moving slower on the inside versus the vis-a-vis the outside
[3:13:28 - 3:13:34] ▶
and so if it's moving like a thousandth of a you know of the pace of the outside you can walk out
[3:13:34 - 3:13:40] ▶
of that thing you know after you know a certain amount of time you're a thousand years in the future
[3:13:40 - 3:13:44] ▶
and so it's a crazy it's crazy content so that is the lower that to me is the least believable thing
[3:13:44 - 3:13:52] ▶
that could have come out of scotar works but we know that or we we have some evidence that Ernest
[3:13:52 - 3:13:59] ▶
Grawitz who is head of the SS medical division that Joseph Mangalow worked under Grawitz was maybe
[3:13:59 - 3:14:06] ▶
involved in this project as yeah as was a guy named Walter Gerlock who was studying gravity
[3:14:06 - 3:14:12] ▶
you know in his university prior to to to this work and so it's this really interesting thing
[3:14:13 - 3:14:19] ▶
this guy named Nick Cook wrote this book called the hunt for zero point he documents it really well
[3:14:19 - 3:14:23] ▶
and he he meets this Polish journalist named Igor Witkowski is probably like the deepest on this
[3:14:23 - 3:14:27] ▶
and Cook comes out saying I don't know if this was real but there's like a ton of evidence that
[3:14:28 - 3:14:34] ▶
like scotar works was real that the like these you had these crazy secret weapons programs that
[3:14:34 - 3:14:39] ▶
were like they put the concept of wonder waffle like June term and wonder weapons to shame
[3:14:39 - 3:14:43] ▶
you know it's like next level stuff but he doesn't know you know whether the bell existed exactly
[3:14:44 - 3:14:49] ▶
or like what exactly was going on but it's a fascinating inquiry and there's actually a book
[3:14:49 - 3:14:54] ▶
by this guy named Tom Auguston and it's I think it's called Blunder and it's basically about how
[3:14:54 - 3:15:03] ▶
there was this fighting for the scraps of scotar works in 1945 and how the Russians ended up with a
[3:15:03 - 3:15:10] ▶
lot of these this this stuff and a lot of the frameworks that might have come from scotar works
[3:15:10 - 3:15:14] ▶
and then the US ended up with a lot of it and at you know originally around you know 45
[3:15:15 - 3:15:21] ▶
it was thought that a comeler died or would disappeared and now we know actually from a couple
[3:15:21 - 3:15:28] ▶
of declassified documents that comeler ended up in the US of course he did and that the that we
[3:15:28 - 3:15:32] ▶
took him back and so that's just like really crazy kind of you know punctuation mark at the end of
[3:15:32 - 3:15:38] ▶
this this story that like is is very important and not super well known um and so yeah I mean I
[3:15:38 - 3:15:46] ▶
don't know exactly what you what you make of that but I think there was a lot of tech transfer
[3:15:46 - 3:15:52] ▶
at the end of the war and it wasn't just you had missions like Tycom which was you know for
[3:15:52 - 3:15:56] ▶
communications and and ASOS which is for nuclear stuff and you had like you know you had um
[3:15:56 - 3:16:02] ▶
Werner you know you had hot highs in Bergenstuff you know like in like this like wiretapped room
[3:16:02 - 3:16:08] ▶
like trying to figure out what he knew and stuff that was kind of maybe like the white world nuclear
[3:16:08 - 3:16:12] ▶
stuff the way Nick Cook puts it um you had black world nuclear stuff going on and that was under
[3:16:12 - 3:16:18] ▶
comeler and so calmer was doing yeah weird nuclear stuff we and then aviation stuff the final story
[3:16:18 - 3:16:25] ▶
here which I think is just mind blowing because all of this is still kind of in the like lore
[3:16:25 - 3:16:30] ▶
mythological realm but this maybe brings it down a little more is there's a guy named John Warner
[3:16:30 - 3:16:36] ▶
the fourth who's actually um uh Chris melons cousin of course and he comes from the melon family
[3:16:36 - 3:16:42] ▶
his uh grandfather is Paul melon so Paul melon is one of the founders of the CIA and John Warner
[3:16:43 - 3:16:51] ▶
is having like a martini with uh Paul melon and you know his grandfather's greenfathers like
[3:16:51 - 3:16:57] ▶
recounting all these crazy stories and he's like you know three or four martinis deep and he says
[3:16:57 - 3:17:02] ▶
you know I remember being in check modern day check of Slovakia and I'm standing out you know
[3:17:02 - 3:17:08] ▶
on on top of a massive craft and it's a it's a saucer and um John Warner says uh is that the one
[3:17:08 - 3:17:15] ▶
with the you know a bunch of the BBMW engines like you know taped taped on to each other and he goes
[3:17:15 - 3:17:20] ▶
no and he just like kind of changes the subject but it was a trip that he and Alan Dulles sound
[3:17:20 - 3:17:25] ▶
Dallas obviously third director of the CIA you know we're on father operation paper clip
[3:17:25 - 3:17:30] ▶
yeah it was exactly and Dallas was doing all sorts of crazy stuff like around the war he was going
[3:17:30 - 3:17:35] ▶
gone fully rogue you know you read devil's chessboard yeah yeah yeah yeah what a book yeah yeah
[3:17:35 - 3:17:41] ▶
exactly and anybody anybody who watches the shian episode I just did read that book because
[3:17:41 - 3:17:46] ▶
it corroborates all this shian stuff too you know so um yeah uh you have a lot of weird evidence
[3:17:47 - 3:17:55] ▶
around like Nazi secret stuff like they they might have figured out more than more than meets the
[3:17:55 - 3:18:00] ▶
eye and then exactly what they figure out I don't know you know you know uh you have um who's
[3:18:00 - 3:18:05] ▶
Werner von Braun's uh why am I blinking out his name Werner von Braun's mentor obworth herman
[3:18:05 - 3:18:11] ▶
obworth yeah he ends up at Convair Bell uh or sorry no Convair doing interesting stuff um and then
[3:18:11 - 3:18:19] ▶
von Braun obviously ends up here it's you know start like runs our space program he and Arthur Rudolph
[3:18:19 - 3:18:23] ▶
who like literally ran the Germans they created the VT Rock like they're like running like the NASA
[3:18:23 - 3:18:28] ▶
Saturn program like it's literally like that NASA Saturn program is like a transplantation of like
[3:18:28 - 3:18:33] ▶
the Nazi space program it's like pretty fascinating the three way race for resources
[3:18:33 - 3:18:38] ▶
after world war two and the immediate aftermath and the years after that between Russia
[3:18:39 - 3:18:44] ▶
the United States and Britain and the secrets of the world that exist from that race
[3:18:45 - 3:18:52] ▶
is one of the most under reported great mysteries of our time yeah you know it's just the
[3:18:53 - 3:18:59] ▶
the depth I mean you get into the biological weapon stuff too you get into you start to wonder like
[3:19:00 - 3:19:06] ▶
how did these guys not have a manhattan project and not get to that and like and this is
[3:19:06 - 3:19:11] ▶
pure crazy speculation on my part but sometimes I do wonder yeah if within those evil
[3:19:11 - 3:19:18] ▶
sadistic little Nazi brains of theirs apparently weren't that little because they knew some science but
[3:19:18 - 3:19:23] ▶
least that you get the point yeah you know if like maybe they had gotten to something like that
[3:19:23 - 3:19:28] ▶
like a nuke maybe they got into some insane biologics yeah and they had just enough left of
[3:19:28 - 3:19:35] ▶
whatever lack of humanity they they had yeah to say maybe we shouldn't give it to the stash that
[3:19:35 - 3:19:43] ▶
motherfucker's a little crazy yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah like me like I don't know
[3:19:43 - 3:19:47] ▶
yeah yeah but I think about that a lot because this shit that they were onto yeah and then the
[3:19:47 - 3:19:52] ▶
deals they were able to make and and let's be honest the Dulles has had some sympathies if you will
[3:19:52 - 3:19:58] ▶
towards the Nazis that's very well documented long before the war and then when the war was
[3:19:58 - 3:20:03] ▶
closing off obviously yep but like if that was a part of it I would oh my god I would love to be a
[3:20:03 - 3:20:08] ▶
fly on the wall during some of those years or a fly on the fucking humvees as they pulled up on shit
[3:20:08 - 3:20:13] ▶
and yeah yeah try to figure out what the fuck to do here because there's there's some crazy stuff
[3:20:13 - 3:20:20] ▶
yeah they came out yeah well you also just look at even more prosaically like
[3:20:20 - 3:20:24] ▶
look at the fighter jets like like that and then look at the rocket like the VT rocket was like 20
[3:20:26 - 3:20:31] ▶
years ahead of like anything coming out of the US like the Nazis I don't know if this is like a pro
[3:20:31 - 3:20:38] ▶
border science argument because they like they they're no like moral qualms about like looking into
[3:20:38 - 3:20:42] ▶
all sorts of I think there was like experimental cell block nine where they were like doing human
[3:20:42 - 3:20:46] ▶
experimentation on like you know you have mangola doing like weird doing all the stuff is so fucked
[3:20:46 - 3:20:51] ▶
up so messed up and so I don't know if they just made progress because they were so like psychologically
[3:20:51 - 3:20:57] ▶
like unbound and like just down for like whatever right no no it's a valid question but but it is
[3:20:57 - 3:21:05] ▶
it's it's it's it's interesting like it calls up a lot of questions like how how did they make
[3:21:05 - 3:21:11] ▶
that much progress that quickly because so so much came out of that that time yeah and you could
[3:21:11 - 3:21:16] ▶
just say you know like well you know that's what war war creates but the amount of progress was like
[3:21:16 - 3:21:21] ▶
it was next level compared to I mean now it's yeah it's nothing close to that it's at least you
[3:21:22 - 3:21:27] ▶
know as far as like physical world progress fucking and then you know it's obviously towards like a
[3:21:27 - 3:21:32] ▶
super ruthless evil and that's the start of some weird shit that then is used on our end which is
[3:21:32 - 3:21:38] ▶
just like morally that's like one of the ultimate quandaries but we could go down a huge rabbit hole
[3:21:38 - 3:21:43] ▶
with that yeah I got to get you out of here soon this has been awesome today yeah man one last
[3:21:43 - 3:21:47] ▶
thing before we go it's come up intermittently today you're you're Danny she hands sit down yeah
[3:21:47 - 3:21:52] ▶
he's gonna be coming in here thanks to you oh yeah but like what what what do you make of that guy
[3:21:52 - 3:21:58] ▶
because he he's been involved to the title of your youtube video he's been involved in like every
[3:21:58 - 3:22:02] ▶
American conspiracy and like you you did such a good job with him but you're just sitting there and
[3:22:02 - 3:22:07] ▶
you say you'd ask like something that's getting towards something crazy where you're like he's
[3:22:08 - 3:22:12] ▶
not gonna say something on this thing goes well as a matter of fact you know I was actually there
[3:22:12 - 3:22:15] ▶
for that one I know exactly what called Kennedy yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah like how do you even
[3:22:15 - 3:22:20] ▶
respond to shit like this like is it crazy or do you it sounds like there's a lot of evidence he
[3:22:20 - 3:22:25] ▶
has below stuff that's the thing so I would if I were to hear what he said five years ago or 10
[3:22:25 - 3:22:32] ▶
years ago like basic American history Jesse or whatever coming at it you know Columbia or whatever
[3:22:32 - 3:22:38] ▶
American history I would have been like this dude's crazy he's off his rocker and then you read a
[3:22:38 - 3:22:43] ▶
book like devil's chess board yeah uh what was I David Talbot David Talbot that's right and like
[3:22:43 - 3:22:49] ▶
you to I spent a little I met Oliver Stonelands and like spent a little bit of time with him and like
[3:22:49 - 3:22:54] ▶
you know watch that you know his movies Jesse you're trying to make this podcast go all night bro my
[3:22:54 - 3:22:59] ▶
my my my point is is like you you build up we can go on that uh you build up this like a stolt view
[3:22:59 - 3:23:06] ▶
of like all right like I'm pretty sure like Delis like came after Kennedy like he the guy hated him
[3:23:06 - 3:23:12] ▶
he wanted to scatter his guy to the Wendy fight just fired Delis you had the Bay of pigs you come
[3:23:12 - 3:23:17] ▶
out like not knowing the motive the chronology and the people but like knowing that like Jeff
[3:23:17 - 3:23:22] ▶
Keves probably like an inside job you know and then you hear she probably you probably you got
[3:23:22 - 3:23:27] ▶
to think you got to think probabilistically but yeah saying 99.9999 99% probably that's what I'm saying
[3:23:27 - 3:23:33] ▶
okay yeah same same probability that we're not allowed right um you know you think you know
[3:23:33 - 3:23:38] ▶
that probably and then you meet a guy like she and and again I would disbelieve it if he weren't
[3:23:38 - 3:23:44] ▶
plugging in gaps in a framework that are already basically believing but he's like you know it's
[3:23:44 - 3:23:52] ▶
yeah it's like it was Delis but it was like this recommissioned to S4 you know his whole
[3:23:52 - 3:23:57] ▶
there his narrative is insane it's this idea that like uh Nixon um who was you know uh VP under
[3:23:57 - 3:24:05] ▶
Eisenhower but it was also kind of running a lot of national security for him kind of commissions
[3:24:05 - 3:24:10] ▶
Hughes Howard Hughes to create this S force which is this like you know team of assassins to kill
[3:24:10 - 3:24:16] ▶
the Del Castro and Che Guevara and they brought in the mob to the brought in Rosalie and Giancana
[3:24:16 - 3:24:21] ▶
exactly traffic con day all these people who like are expedient allies because they you know want
[3:24:21 - 3:24:26] ▶
the betis to drug run you know back up and running or whatever and then um uh this S force gets like
[3:24:26 - 3:24:34] ▶
kind of sunsetted and then like rolled up into these other operations Mungus and that is fox
[3:24:34 - 3:24:40] ▶
something I don't know whatever and then when Delis gets fired uh by JFK he retreats back to
[3:24:40 - 3:24:49] ▶
the brown brothers heraman which is the investment firm that like sort of formed the CIA yeah
[3:24:49 - 3:24:53] ▶
and he then calls the shot that like the S force is going to get recommission sleeper so let's go
[3:24:53 - 3:24:58] ▶
and let's go and then and take out JFK and he like uh Danny mentions the name of the guy that
[3:24:58 - 3:25:05] ▶
he says he gets like yeah he goes we're yeah Ricardo knows guy Morales um uh um uh uh
[3:25:05 - 3:25:13] ▶
right yeah he's they call them Roger Morale yeah Ricardo Morale I don't know um but it's it's
[3:25:13 - 3:25:19] ▶
it's wild and so again I would I would not believe it if it weren't like so in line with my prior
[3:25:19 - 3:25:25] ▶
understanding of what had happened which is that you know come on like it's like you have all
[3:25:25 - 3:25:30] ▶
these things like the magic bullet the idea that like jolly west like mk ultra the like jack ruby
[3:25:30 - 3:25:35] ▶
right afterwards like you literally can look at the JFK thing for like five hours and be like I
[3:25:35 - 3:25:40] ▶
think there's some weird shit here you know oh yeah um so yeah it's wild man she hands like a
[3:25:40 - 3:25:46] ▶
it's like a national treasure I don't understand how after that interview I asked I was like dude
[3:25:46 - 3:25:51] ▶
how are you alive and he was like oh you know Jesse he's like yeah you can't be paranoid and you
[3:25:51 - 3:25:57] ▶
got to just do your thing I mean I don't know you're gonna kill this guy yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
[3:25:57 - 3:26:01] ▶
yeah he's a little Yoda here yeah oh my god I can't wait to do it he's the best man you're gonna
[3:26:01 - 3:26:06] ▶
have an awesome time with him and yeah I'm fired up you get to pick his brain he's the best and he
[3:26:06 - 3:26:11] ▶
reps Luel Azondo in the past you reps Stephen Greer he was like early in the 90s I think like into
[3:26:11 - 3:26:18] ▶
UFO litigation somehow well he was he was up somewhere yeah he's like zelek or something he's always
[3:26:18 - 3:26:24] ▶
like in the forest comp of law he's look for he's literally forest gump of like American history
[3:26:24 - 3:26:29] ▶
yeah and in the most interesting like it's crazy like yeah it's like and then James McCord hit me
[3:26:29 - 3:26:35] ▶
up after watergate and like I represented him like why yeah yeah I'm gonna dunk and don't it's
[3:26:35 - 3:26:40] ▶
a matter of fun yeah it's it's wild man he's uh he's funny and he I don't know how he pieces all
[3:26:40 - 3:26:46] ▶
this stuff together he has a JFK infographic that will literally blow your mind it's like you'll
[3:26:46 - 3:26:52] ▶
come out more confused than you again it's like the amount of names and like it's like a web of he's
[3:26:52 - 3:26:58] ▶
like oh just look at my infographic and I look at it and I'm like am I supposed to understand this
[3:26:58 - 3:27:02] ▶
deep like the infographics are supposed to be like you know four or five boxes and like you know
[3:27:02 - 3:27:07] ▶
it's like it was like a hundred different things I was dying of laughter it was but well what
[3:27:07 - 3:27:12] ▶
fun I'm sure that'll come up he did he did a really good podcast with my buddy Danny Jones
[3:27:12 - 3:27:17] ▶
earlier this year too like the guy's just gold so yeah it'll be great but listen man this is the
[3:27:17 - 3:27:22] ▶
first of what I hope is many podcasts on here hell yeah man you are come back dude you are better
[3:27:22 - 3:27:27] ▶
than build this is this is like this has been incredible there's gonna be a patreon episode from
[3:27:27 - 3:27:31] ▶
somewhere within here too where we went off topic for like 40 minutes or something like that so
[3:27:31 - 3:27:35] ▶
people can't hit that link in description but we'll have your channel down there everyone go check
[3:27:35 - 3:27:40] ▶
out the videos they're so good they're so well produced love what you're doing and thank you
[3:27:40 - 3:27:45] ▶
thanks for going through all of it today man I love what you're doing appreciate you having it
[3:27:45 - 3:27:48] ▶
awesome all right everybody else you know what it is give it a thought get back to me
[3:27:48 - 3:27:52] ▶
purse thank you guys for watching the episode before you leave please be sure to hit that
[3:27:52 - 3:27:56] ▶
subscribe button and smash that like button on the video it's a huge help and also if you're
[3:27:56 - 3:28:00] ▶
over on Instagram be sure to follow the show at julien dory podcast or also on my personal page
[3:28:00 - 3:28:06] ▶
at julien ddory both links are in the description below finally if you'd like to catch up on our
[3:28:06 - 3:28:11] ▶
latest episodes use the julien dory podcast playlist link in the description below thank you
[3:28:11 - 3:28:23] ▶