1,874 segments
They're not coming in from another star system every other Tuesday.
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They're present here.
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There are handfuls of people doing weird things here and there.
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Those people are all over the place.
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Some of them I knew when I was at NASA have come talk to me and said,
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oh yeah, I was interested. I know something about this or that.
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Have you met anybody working on the crafts themselves?
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I've met people who've claimed to have worked on them or seen them.
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So the question I've had is why, when we had the NASA commission,
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why was there no section on what astronauts have seen in space?
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I talked to Alan Bean. He was from Apollo 12.
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He said that when he went up to Skylab, they actually photographed a red flashing light.
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Nobody puts lights on satellites. First, you don't need them. And second, it's more weight.
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Also, satellites back then weren't doing proximity operations.
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They were just following predictable orbits.
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And they weren't changing orbits.
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They weren't changing orbits.
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They actually had a craft pull up alongside of them.
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And the cosmonaut drew a picture of the object.
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The story Musgrave, a shuttle pilot, also talked about seeing things like snakes.
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Things writhing around in space.
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This is a phenomenon that people have seen for centuries.
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This case is going back to the 1800s.
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Balls of light coming out of the water, hovering next to the ship, following the ship, and then
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taking off into the clouds.
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And that's why I think there's probably bases underwater is your best bet.
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Now back to the show.
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Kevin Knuth, this is an absolute honor, and it's been a long time coming.
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You're a physicist at the University of Albany, and to me, you are one of the few people who
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speaks about UFOs in a really concrete, hard-headed way.
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I think you're one of the few people I know who are studying how these crafts actually fly,
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And so I'm really excited to have you.
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Well, and thank you so much for having me.
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Oh, no, it's an absolute honor.
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And you have a NASA background as well.
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I want to know how you got into UFOs to begin with, because a lot of people with your sort
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of credentials and background think UFOs are a joke.
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I mean, I've always been interested in UFOs.
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I was 12 when Star Wars came out in 1977.
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And during that time, I mean, it was the same year Close Encounters, the third kind came
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It was, you know, another movie studio's response to Star Wars that came out in December.
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And I didn't like it as much, because there weren't spaceships shooting each other with
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So as a 12-year-old, that wasn't that exciting.
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But at the same time, you know, there were TV shows like In Search Of with Leonard Nimoy,
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and they would cover UFO topics.
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And that was on every night, like at 6.30 when we're eating dinner.
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So I watched that all the time.
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So I've always been interested in them.
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And I think I wasn't, so I went to graduate school in 1988.
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I grew up in Wisconsin, and I moved out to Montana to go to graduate school at Montana State
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University in Bozeman.
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And our first week or two there, I had just moved there, and there was a cattle mutilation
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where two cows were killed and surgically manipulated.
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I don't have a good word for what happened to them.
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The blood was drained.
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The blood was drained.
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The sensory organs removed.
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The genitals removed.
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One of them had like a core sample.
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It had this cylindrical hole punched through it.
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I mean, really bizarre.
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And the people on the news were crazed about this, right?
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Oh, my God, there's, you know, these two cows on this ranch were killed.
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And there were UFO reports in the county that night, hundreds of reports.
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And so the two stories were that it was either aliens or Satanists.
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And everybody's all got their undies in a bundle over this, right?
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And so we're at the physics department, and some of us grad students are talking about this.
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And especially the new graduate students, we've all just moved there into a PhD program.
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So you're looking down the barrel of spending five or six years of your life at this place.
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And we want, what kind of place did we just move to where cows are murdered this way, right?
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This is really bizarre.
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So we're discussing this in the hallway, and it was this heated discussion.
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And I remember shouting at one point, I don't know why aliens would do it, and I don't know how Satanists would do it.
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I mean, it was that level of stupid discussion, right, that students would have.
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And we were quite loud and disturbed one of the professors down the hall.
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And he came out from his office to find out what we're talking about.
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And he comes down the hall, and we tell him.
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And I don't know if he was trying to make us feel better because it was the opposite.
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But he said, oh, yeah, yeah, this happens from time to time.
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And they'll investigate it, and they won't figure anything out.
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And then everybody will just forget about it until it happens again.
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And we're just like, what?
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That's even crazier than what we're already talking about.
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And then he adds, and he goes, but you know what's really strange?
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He goes, I have friends who work up at Malmstrom Air Force Base, and they have problems with UFOs flying over the nuclear missile sites and shutting down nuclear missiles.
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And, you know, we listened politely, and when he walked away, we laughed our asses off.
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Because this was the, at the time, it was the silliest thing I thought I'd ever heard.
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I mean, UFOs are shutting down nuclear missiles, and this isn't, everybody's not on red alert.
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I mean, our entire military should be mobilized for something like that, right?
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So we just didn't believe it.
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We thought this was just silly.
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And it became kind of a running joke.
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Anytime something weird would happen at, you know, at school or somebody's telling a story, oh, this weird thing happened to me, someone would invariably interject.
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But you know what's really strange?
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UFOs are shutting down nuclear missiles up in Malmstrom Air Force Base, and we would all laugh, right?
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And so that was a running joke for a whole year.
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And so now time passes, and that was September of 1988.
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And he had said that it was ongoing.
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He said they are doing this presently, right?
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And so now fast forward to, it was about 2015, so it's a couple years before the New York Times article.
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And I was teaching an astronomy class, and we got to the point where we were talking about possibility of life elsewhere.
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And some of the students wanted me to comment on UFOs.
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I'm like, well, I don't know anything about UFOs, and it's certainly not science.
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It's an astronomy class.
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So I was just poking around on the Internet, is there anything reasonable I can actually say other than the Drake equation and the Fermi paradox, right?
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The two typical things that scientists might talk about.
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And I was just poking around at like 2 a.m., and I stumbled on Robert Hastings' news conference from like 2010,
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where he had six people on from the Air Force, various Air Force positions.
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The first one was Robert Salas talking about UFOs shutting down nuclear missiles at Malmstrom Air Force Base.
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And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
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I heard about this in grad school.
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That was a joke, right?
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And then I'm listening to this, and I'm like, that's just not a joke.
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Between September of 66 and March of 67, we lost 30 missiles to UFO activity.
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That's pretty insane.
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Now what are you doing?
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He's talking about events from 1966.
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And I heard about it in 1988.
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And the professor that told me in 1988 about this said that it is happening.
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So this has been going on for 20 years, and no one's paying any attention to this.
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I mean, the military is still not mobilized and worrying about this.
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And I thought, there is something really wrong here.
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And I spent some time thinking about it.
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I was up late that night teaching class early, right?
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But I'm thinking about it, and I thought, I mean, it's either nonsense, and the people
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who are in charge of our nuclear missiles are people we shouldn't be trusting with anything,
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or this is actually real, which makes more sense considering the amount of time that's
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involved, a 20-year time span.
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And nobody's reacting to it, maybe because they all think it's nonsense.
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And I thought, this is extremely dangerous.
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We're going to get blindsided by something if we're not careful.
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And I thought, somebody ought to look into this.
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And I thought, I'm going to start looking into this UFO business.
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How possible is this?
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And so that's when I started looking into it.
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And I had actually given a talk in our department like a year later, after I looked into it
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somewhat, I thought, this is actually really interesting.
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So I gave a talk in our physics department about it, just an informal talk, and the room
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I mean, I don't know how many people can actually sit in that room, but it was well over the
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I mean, we had people sitting cross-legged right up to the front screen.
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And the talk went on.
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There were so many questions.
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I talked for it for almost three hours.
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And most people just stayed for it, because everybody was really interested.
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And I thought, yeah, see, this is interesting.
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I mean, this is an interesting problem here.
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And it's not that simple.
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And then, of course, a year after that, the New York Times article comes out.
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And I thought, well, somebody ought to study this.
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And I thought, well, shoot, you just do it.
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And the nuclear link, I could see that being the perfect gateway for a rigorous scientist
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like yourself, because I think science in the conventional sense has to be repeatable.
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You know, every time you drop this pen, it needs to fall in sort of the same way for it
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And so I think the nuclear link is a version of that with UFOs, where UFOs seem to show
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up across nuclear bases, not only in the U.S., but all over the world.
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And that's one thing that worried me.
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Once I looked into it, I thought, wow, this is happening in the Soviet Union.
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This is happening in France.
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This is happening in England.
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We were talking before the show.
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I'm wearing my American Alchemy Japan shirt, which is paying homage to Lino, which is a
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town next to their Fukushima prefecture, where they have, they're famous for their nuclear
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They have their civilian energy grid.
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And UFOs were reported to show up there.
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They have a whole museum dedicated to UFOs.
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Vice did a documentary on them in 2022.
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And it's the town in Japan that's obsessed with UFOs.
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And it's right next to this nuclear grid.
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And then I think there was a Netflix Encounter episode, I think episode four, focused on that
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And Malmstrom, where you mentioned, that is the site of tons and tons of activity.
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You have Bob Salas, obviously, in 67.
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But before that, you had this Echo Flight incident.
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You know, I think it was like very, I think it was 10 days before or something.
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Then you have John Mills, this retired missile technician in the early 90s, seeing a bunch
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You even have an interview with this guy, Chris Langan, which, say what you will about
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the guy, he says he has the highest IQ in the world.
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He seems a little cocky to me.
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But he's just offhand.
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He's saying he's seen UFOs and he's seen them around Malmstrom Air Force Base.
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On the UFO thing, I was working for the Forest Service, not too far from Malmstrom Air Force
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One day I was up there in a Forest Service pickup truck at a certain campground.
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And suddenly I look up and I say suddenly.
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It was just in the skies.
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I became aware that it was up there.
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There's this huge spheroidal, you know, but elliptical, not a perfect spheroid, like a
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saucer that was turned partially on its side.
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And so it's just this recurring trope from all these uncorrelated sources.
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Robert Hastings, who wrote the book UFOs and Nukes, got into this whole subject because
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his father was actually working at Malmstrom Base.
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And he was learning radar theory from one of the radar operators there.
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Bob Hastings was while he was a janitor.
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He was in high school.
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And the radar operator was like, we're tracking some of these unknowns.
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You should take a look.
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And then that was it for him.
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He was hooked and he dedicated his life to studying this stuff.
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It was maybe three years ago.
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We were down in Louisiana visiting my in-laws for Mardi Gras.
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And so it was February and we're outside grilling.
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And I was grilling with my wife's uncle, Matt.
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And he had his Air Force cap on.
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And I spotted Malmstrom Air Force Base on his Air Force cap.
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And I was like, Uncle Matt, you were there.
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You were in the Air Force.
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And you were at Malmstrom.
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You were at Malmstrom?
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And he goes, yeah, it was stationed in Malmstrom.
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I go, when were you there?
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And he goes, oh, like 1971 through 74 or something like that.
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And I said, did you ever hear anything about UFO incursions at nuclear weapon sites?
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He goes, oh, that happened all the time.
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These things would come in and shut down the nuclear weapons.
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And he was going on and on about this.
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And I'm like, it's common knowledge.
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And how is it Congress is just finding out about this, right?
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And my wife's uncle, Matt, has known this since 1971.
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This is something to worry about, right?
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And I was so excited.
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I told him, okay, can you tell my wife this?
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Because I'm tired of being the only crazy person.
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But it was his response was amazing.
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Oh, yeah, this happened all the time.
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And like, it's nothing right.
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So on the one hand, you have UFOs showing up around our most important assets or nuclear
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assets with people who are on the PRP program who literally, like, they have to report if
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they're on ibuprofen.
[0:16:09 - 0:16:10] ▶
These are people who work at the nuclear bases.
[0:16:10 - 0:16:12] ▶
The picture of mental health and of sound mind.
[0:16:12 - 0:16:15] ▶
And they all see tic-tacs, saucers, orbs, you know, shutting down nukes.
[0:16:15 - 0:16:19] ▶
And then there's the idea that the U.S. government might have saucers and hangers.
[0:16:21 - 0:16:26] ▶
Do you think it's clear that this is happening, the nuclear thing?
[0:16:27 - 0:16:30] ▶
Do you think the U.S. government has saucers and hangers and we have an active reverse
[0:16:32 - 0:16:36] ▶
engineering program for nuts and bolts, physical craft?
[0:16:36 - 0:16:40] ▶
I think that's probably true.
[0:16:40 - 0:16:42] ▶
I've heard this from enough people who've done that kind of work for years now.
[0:16:42 - 0:16:46] ▶
That's probably the case.
[0:16:47 - 0:16:48] ▶
Have you met anybody working on the crafts themselves?
[0:16:49 - 0:16:51] ▶
I've met people who've claimed to have worked on them or seen them.
[0:16:51 - 0:16:54] ▶
Anybody that you can mention or?
[0:16:55 - 0:16:57] ▶
No, I shouldn't do that.
[0:16:57 - 0:16:58] ▶
These are whispers that you get every now and again.
[0:17:00 - 0:17:02] ▶
Did you find them believable though?
[0:17:02 - 0:17:04] ▶
Entirely believable.
[0:17:04 - 0:17:05] ▶
No, you didn't sense any sort of deception?
[0:17:06 - 0:17:08] ▶
One of the most believable things I've heard is, well, have you been able to figure anything
[0:17:10 - 0:17:13] ▶
We don't know what anything is or how anything works.
[0:17:14 - 0:17:16] ▶
And I was like, all right, that makes sense.
[0:17:17 - 0:17:19] ▶
So, it's like, you know, giving an iPhone to a caveman or something.
[0:17:20 - 0:17:26] ▶
Something like that.
[0:17:26 - 0:17:27] ▶
I mean, it seems like any technologies they've got from it are just, you know, surface level
[0:17:28 - 0:17:33] ▶
Oh, this is some interesting material.
[0:17:34 - 0:17:35] ▶
If I were on the inside, I would probably want somebody like you working on this sort
[0:17:38 - 0:17:43] ▶
I would love to be working on this, but not black work.
[0:17:43 - 0:17:46] ▶
I'd love to work on this in the open.
[0:17:46 - 0:17:47] ▶
Have you ever been contacted to do black work?
[0:17:48 - 0:17:50] ▶
I had the opportunity to have clearance when I worked at NASA.
[0:17:50 - 0:17:55] ▶
But I turned it down.
[0:17:55 - 0:17:57] ▶
Because you've always wanted to do things in an open, transparent way.
[0:17:57 - 0:18:00] ▶
Yeah, I'm a scientist.
[0:18:00 - 0:18:00] ▶
And one of the benefits of being a scientist is we share information, we work together,
[0:18:02 - 0:18:08] ▶
Do you think that's-
[0:18:09 - 0:18:09] ▶
And yeah, there's some competition, but there's a lot of collaboration as well.
[0:18:09 - 0:18:13] ▶
So, and that's very healthy.
[0:18:13 - 0:18:14] ▶
Do you think that's part of what's held back, the legacy UFO program?
[0:18:14 - 0:18:18] ▶
If it's held back at all, it's because you've got 10 people closeted working on one thing,
[0:18:18 - 0:18:24] ▶
and they don't get extra information that you might need to get interesting ideas.
[0:18:25 - 0:18:30] ▶
You know, the more people you have working on a problem, the more diversity of ideas
[0:18:31 - 0:18:35] ▶
you're going to get.
[0:18:35 - 0:18:36] ▶
Do you think that there are certain scientific things that you can't work on in the kind
[0:18:36 - 0:18:42] ▶
of civil side, you know, open world of science without receiving backlash?
[0:18:42 - 0:18:47] ▶
Uh, UFOs is one of them.
[0:18:47 - 0:18:49] ▶
Yeah, we, there was some backlash, some backlash when we started working on UFOs.
[0:18:50 - 0:18:55] ▶
You mentioned on Danny Jones that you've had various friends work on anti-gravity and receive
[0:18:56 - 0:19:01] ▶
They get threatened threats and things like that, yeah, too.
[0:19:03 - 0:19:05] ▶
That's very strange, yeah.
[0:19:07 - 0:19:08] ▶
What do you think that is with the anti-gravity stuff?
[0:19:08 - 0:19:11] ▶
I really have no idea.
[0:19:11 - 0:19:13] ▶
I mean, I, you know, you can jump to conclusions and say, well, because somebody doesn't want
[0:19:13 - 0:19:18] ▶
other people discovering things that they know about and have control over.
[0:19:18 - 0:19:21] ▶
I mean, you could jump to that conclusion, but I don't, I don't actually know what the
[0:19:21 - 0:19:25] ▶
Doesn't that feel like the base case conclusion?
[0:19:27 - 0:19:29] ▶
Like, if you're, if somebody's getting threatened over discovering a thing, um, it would seem
[0:19:29 - 0:19:34] ▶
like there'd be some group on the inside that would be tracking people trying to discover
[0:19:34 - 0:19:40] ▶
a thing that they're already aware of, right?
[0:19:40 - 0:19:41] ▶
Like, that seems like the Occam's razor easy explanation.
[0:19:42 - 0:19:44] ▶
Yeah, I mean, it leads to a whole sets of conspiracy theories, right?
[0:19:44 - 0:19:47] ▶
And it's, it's difficult.
[0:19:47 - 0:19:48] ▶
I've done deep dives on this guy, like Townsend Brown, who I'm really fascinated with.
[0:19:50 - 0:19:54] ▶
And I, I talk about him probably too much for the audience always laughs when I talk, but,
[0:19:54 - 0:19:58] ▶
but, you know, I, I find him to be really interesting because I do think he made breakthroughs in the
[0:19:58 - 0:20:04] ▶
world of gravity at this sort of Byfield Brown effect, which is, I think a very simple experiment.
[0:20:04 - 0:20:08] ▶
But I, have you looked into that at all or?
[0:20:08 - 0:20:10] ▶
I haven't looked into that much at all.
[0:20:11 - 0:20:13] ▶
Um, you have limited time.
[0:20:13 - 0:20:15] ▶
I've got stacks of books I want to read and things I want to look at.
[0:20:16 - 0:20:19] ▶
And it's just, you have to pick and choose.
[0:20:19 - 0:20:22] ▶
And I think that's when, that's one reason why you don't have academics in the past looking
[0:20:22 - 0:20:27] ▶
into UFOs, because why spend time on something that's probably nonsensical when you can be
[0:20:27 - 0:20:32] ▶
spending, spending time on something that is probably going to pay off.
[0:20:32 - 0:20:35] ▶
And I think that's the calculation most people are doing.
[0:20:35 - 0:20:38] ▶
And how do you, except at this point, I don't think it's nonsensical.
[0:20:38 - 0:20:42] ▶
So the payoff's huge, right?
[0:20:42 - 0:20:44] ▶
How do you think UFOs fly?
[0:20:44 - 0:20:47] ▶
They're very strange in a lot of ways.
[0:20:49 - 0:20:53] ▶
First, the, um, how many ways are they strange, right?
[0:20:53 - 0:20:57] ▶
The speeds and accelerations are crazy, right?
[0:20:59 - 0:21:04] ▶
The accelerations, nobody's going to survive that.
[0:21:04 - 0:21:07] ▶
So, so the equipment isn't going to survive it.
[0:21:07 - 0:21:10] ▶
So, you know, in the Nimitz case, we estimated the acceleration of the Tic Tac dropping from
[0:21:11 - 0:21:16] ▶
28,000 feet to sea level in 0.75 seconds or so, 0.78 seconds.
[0:21:16 - 0:21:22] ▶
Um, it's about 5,000 Gs of acceleration minimum, right?
[0:21:22 - 0:21:26] ▶
Um, the new F 35 fighters jets, the wings rip off at 13 Gs.
[0:21:29 - 0:21:35] ▶
You know, most missile frames can't handle more than a, a missile can't maneuver at more than
[0:21:36 - 0:21:43] ▶
And the frame isn't going to survive more than 60 Gs.
[0:21:45 - 0:21:48] ▶
And now you've got this Tic Tac thing accelerating at 5,000 Gs.
[0:21:49 - 0:21:52] ▶
That's not possible.
[0:21:52 - 0:21:53] ▶
I mean, equipment won't survive.
[0:21:53 - 0:21:55] ▶
So now this leads you to think the only solutions there is you've got to be playing with inertia
[0:21:55 - 0:22:01] ▶
You've got to be playing with gravity somehow.
[0:22:02 - 0:22:03] ▶
And, um, and so that leads you down the path of general relativity and warp drive and that
[0:22:04 - 0:22:09] ▶
way of thinking, right?
[0:22:09 - 0:22:10] ▶
Do you have like a prop, a propulsion modality that you like best when it comes to UFOs?
[0:22:11 - 0:22:16] ▶
No, I don't exactly.
[0:22:16 - 0:22:17] ▶
So then, but then the other problem is power.
[0:22:17 - 0:22:19] ▶
If you look at energies and power involved, the, the amount of power for that Tic Tac dropping
[0:22:19 - 0:22:24] ▶
is something like, um, what was it?
[0:22:24 - 0:22:28] ▶
It was 1100 gigawatts of power.
[0:22:28 - 0:22:30] ▶
You know, I remember back to the future with Doc, Doc Brown, 2.1 gigawatts.
[0:22:31 - 0:22:37] ▶
Like that's crazy or something.
[0:22:37 - 0:22:38] ▶
This thing was 1100 gigawatts, right?
[0:22:38 - 0:22:40] ▶
And he had, he had Mr. Fusion, which was a nuclear fusion machine.
[0:22:41 - 0:22:45] ▶
So this is more power.
[0:22:47 - 0:22:48] ▶
The Tic Tac maneuver took more power than the total nuclear power output of the United
[0:22:48 - 0:22:53] ▶
That's in that Tic Tac in the size of an F-18.
[0:22:55 - 0:22:58] ▶
I mean, that's crazy.
[0:22:58 - 0:22:59] ▶
And so now how do you, how do you get your head around that?
[0:22:59 - 0:23:03] ▶
If you, so if, if you, so let's say there, they can deal with that kind of power for some
[0:23:03 - 0:23:08] ▶
reason, they have access to that much energy.
[0:23:08 - 0:23:11] ▶
Um, equipment is never a hundred percent efficient.
[0:23:11 - 0:23:15] ▶
So a 1% inefficiency.
[0:23:16 - 0:23:18] ▶
So in most of the things we make are like 20% efficient at best.
[0:23:19 - 0:23:23] ▶
Um, so let's say they're really good at this.
[0:23:24 - 0:23:26] ▶
They can get to 99% efficiency.
[0:23:26 - 0:23:28] ▶
That means you've got a 1% inefficiency.
[0:23:28 - 0:23:31] ▶
1% of 1000 gigawatts is like 11 gigawatts of power.
[0:23:31 - 0:23:38] ▶
That means 11 gigawatts of power is going into waste heat.
[0:23:39 - 0:23:42] ▶
The thing would melt.
[0:23:43 - 0:23:44] ▶
So now what's happening?
[0:23:45 - 0:23:46] ▶
Are they really more efficient than 99% or is, or do we have something wrong?
[0:23:47 - 0:23:53] ▶
Are we looking at this the wrong way?
[0:23:54 - 0:23:55] ▶
Maybe, maybe they're not actually moving in such a way that takes that much power.
[0:23:55 - 0:23:59] ▶
Do you have any theories?
[0:23:59 - 0:24:00] ▶
Um, warp drive is certainly on the table.
[0:24:03 - 0:24:05] ▶
Um, but that too is messy because we don't know enough about how, you know, since there
[0:24:06 - 0:24:15] ▶
has been theoretical work done on warp bubbles, um, we don't really know how these would interact
[0:24:15 - 0:24:22] ▶
So what does a warp bubble do in an atmosphere?
[0:24:23 - 0:24:26] ▶
We don't, nobody's, I don't think has looked into that.
[0:24:26 - 0:24:29] ▶
So, so these things are strange because they don't appear to be interacting with the atmosphere
[0:24:29 - 0:24:33] ▶
There's no sonic boom.
[0:24:33 - 0:24:34] ▶
There's no fireball.
[0:24:34 - 0:24:35] ▶
There's no sound in many cases.
[0:24:36 - 0:24:38] ▶
Uh, the underwater UFOs, you've even got more in, you should, should be a much more friction
[0:24:38 - 0:24:44] ▶
These things are moving the, the one with the H, the, the New Zealand frigate in 1980s,
[0:24:44 - 0:24:51] ▶
the HMNZS Southland, um, had an 800 foot long USO following it.
[0:24:51 - 0:25:00] ▶
And it was about two kilometers behind the ship and actually closed that distance in 25
[0:25:00 - 0:25:05] ▶
seconds and went under the ship and drained all the batteries, drained all the power from
[0:25:05 - 0:25:09] ▶
And you've got a clear, the, the width of this thing was about 150 feet in diameter.
[0:25:10 - 0:25:16] ▶
It's cylindrical shaped object, 800 feet long.
[0:25:16 - 0:25:20] ▶
So it's, so it's, what is that?
[0:25:20 - 0:25:21] ▶
That's 30% longer than the largest, um, Russian sub, which would be the typhoon class subs,
[0:25:21 - 0:25:27] ▶
So it's 30% bigger than a typhoon class sub.
[0:25:28 - 0:25:30] ▶
The thing closes two kilometers in 25 seconds.
[0:25:31 - 0:25:34] ▶
This gives you an excel, a crazy acceleration, right?
[0:25:34 - 0:25:38] ▶
The top speed is something like 3,500 miles an hour.
[0:25:39 - 0:25:41] ▶
And you've got to clear a, a 150 foot diameter cylinder, two kilometer long cylinder of water
[0:25:42 - 0:25:51] ▶
out of the way to move this thing into, in 25 seconds.
[0:25:51 - 0:25:56] ▶
That water had to go somewhere.
[0:25:56 - 0:25:58] ▶
Water is not compressible.
[0:25:58 - 0:25:59] ▶
So you would have had waves coming up.
[0:26:00 - 0:26:02] ▶
Um, that did not happen.
[0:26:03 - 0:26:04] ▶
So the thing is acting like it's not even interacting with the water.
[0:26:05 - 0:26:08] ▶
Yet we have sonar records from this, which means sonar works by water molecules banging
[0:26:09 - 0:26:16] ▶
So the water molecules are bouncing off this thing, but it's not interacting with the water
[0:26:19 - 0:26:24] ▶
all at the same time.
[0:26:24 - 0:26:25] ▶
Um, how, how this works.
[0:26:25 - 0:26:27] ▶
I, I have no explanation for this.
[0:26:27 - 0:26:29] ▶
Um, but that's the data.
[0:26:29 - 0:26:31] ▶
Now, now what do you do?
[0:26:31 - 0:26:32] ▶
It's really perplexing.
[0:26:34 - 0:26:35] ▶
These things are really not simple.
[0:26:36 - 0:26:38] ▶
Do you think you've ever studied UFO parts?
[0:26:39 - 0:26:42] ▶
Um, my colleague, Matthew Shidalgas has been working on studying debris from purported crashes.
[0:26:42 - 0:26:51] ▶
He has a new technique for, um, detecting isotopes using neutron activation.
[0:26:52 - 0:26:59] ▶
So he's developed this technique and he's been working on this furiously for the last couple
[0:26:59 - 0:27:04] ▶
Neutron activations.
[0:27:04 - 0:27:05] ▶
How is that different than mass spec?
[0:27:05 - 0:27:07] ▶
Um, mass spec, you basically, you, um, typically you, you dissolve the material in nitric acid and
[0:27:08 - 0:27:15] ▶
then you spray it into a, into a, some electric plates that basically electrify it, ionize it.
[0:27:15 - 0:27:22] ▶
And then you shoot it into a magnetic field that constant magnetic field, the thing will
[0:27:22 - 0:27:28] ▶
So, and the radius of the circle depends on the mass.
[0:27:29 - 0:27:31] ▶
So then it hits a screen depending on where the mass is, changes where it hits the screen.
[0:27:31 - 0:27:36] ▶
So you can measure the mass of the isotopes inside that spray.
[0:27:36 - 0:27:39] ▶
And to back up for the audience, um, isotope differences are, are neutron differences in
[0:27:39 - 0:27:45] ▶
And if you were to find some, you know, isotope ratios in a material that don't occur naturally
[0:27:46 - 0:27:52] ▶
on earth and don't pattern match to asteroids, that would be this really exciting, you know,
[0:27:52 - 0:27:57] ▶
possible smoking gun that the thing is actually a UFO.
[0:27:57 - 0:28:01] ▶
Summarized that very nicely.
[0:28:03 - 0:28:04] ▶
Yeah, that's exactly it.
[0:28:05 - 0:28:06] ▶
And, um, so Matthew's technique is different.
[0:28:06 - 0:28:08] ▶
He basically irradiates the material with neutrons, with, with a neutron source and basically
[0:28:09 - 0:28:16] ▶
creates, um, heavier isotopes with these extra neutrons.
[0:28:16 - 0:28:21] ▶
And, um, and then he watches them decay back into the, the states that they were in before.
[0:28:22 - 0:28:29] ▶
So he can tell what the isotopes he created were, and then he can infer what they were
[0:28:29 - 0:28:34] ▶
originally from that.
[0:28:34 - 0:28:36] ▶
And it's non-destructive because the, they, they decay back to where they were and pretty
[0:28:36 - 0:28:42] ▶
And, um, and you're not doing it to most of the material.
[0:28:43 - 0:28:46] ▶
You're only, you know, rating thousands of these atoms rather than, as compared to Avogadro's
[0:28:46 - 0:28:54] ▶
number for the whole sample.
[0:28:54 - 0:28:55] ▶
I mean, Gary Nolan is also doing this at Stanford.
[0:28:56 - 0:28:59] ▶
He's using mass spec.
[0:28:59 - 0:29:00] ▶
So it's cool to see that there's, you know, there are updates even on his work as far as
[0:29:01 - 0:29:05] ▶
this material analysis.
[0:29:05 - 0:29:06] ▶
The UFO legacy program has to be keeping tabs on what you guys are doing.
[0:29:07 - 0:29:12] ▶
That would be my guess, right?
[0:29:12 - 0:29:13] ▶
Right, right, right.
[0:29:13 - 0:29:14] ▶
Like they, you'd want some sort of like civilian, like the smartest, like, you know.
[0:29:14 - 0:29:18] ▶
Yeah, no, I know there, there's, there's interest in Matthew's work.
[0:29:18 - 0:29:21] ▶
He's had contact with government people.
[0:29:21 - 0:29:22] ▶
I can't really talk about those details, but.
[0:29:23 - 0:29:25] ▶
Are the parts like arts parts?
[0:29:26 - 0:29:28] ▶
The, the parts that.
[0:29:28 - 0:29:29] ▶
Some of them were arts parts, but he's, he's had other ones too.
[0:29:29 - 0:29:31] ▶
He's had material from Ukraine and Israel and.
[0:29:32 - 0:29:34] ▶
It's this rumor that Art Bell, right.
[0:29:38 - 0:29:41] ▶
Eventually ended up in possession of this material that I think was from the, was it from
[0:29:41 - 0:29:46] ▶
Some of it's from Roswell.
[0:29:47 - 0:29:48] ▶
And, and the, the material is in Art Bell, obviously famous coast to coast, you know,
[0:29:49 - 0:29:53] ▶
amazing, you know, radio show host that reached, you know, 10 to 15 million people.
[0:29:53 - 0:29:59] ▶
Every night, super into UFOs.
[0:29:59 - 0:30:01] ▶
And it's so interesting that he received these pieces.
[0:30:01 - 0:30:04] ▶
Cause he, you know, he's so passionate about, about this stuff.
[0:30:04 - 0:30:06] ▶
I believe one of the pieces is magnesium bismuth.
[0:30:06 - 0:30:09] ▶
Cause that's what Nolan has as well.
[0:30:10 - 0:30:12] ▶
I find this really interesting because in the Bifield Brown effect with Townsend
[0:30:12 - 0:30:17] ▶
Brown, the anti-gravity stuff.
[0:30:17 - 0:30:18] ▶
Uh, and I don't have any, I have a little bit of evidence that Townsend Brown might've
[0:30:19 - 0:30:23] ▶
been involved in one UFO crash retrieval, but I don't have a ton.
[0:30:23 - 0:30:26] ▶
I, I mostly have evidence that he figured out an anti-gravity modality, but magnesium,
[0:30:26 - 0:30:30] ▶
uh, or bismuth rather is constantly talked about bismuth because bismuth is a high K
[0:30:30 - 0:30:37] ▶
So it stores and discharges easily a lot of electromagnetism and that in the Bifield
[0:30:38 - 0:30:43] ▶
Brown effect, if you use that as the insulator between the two, you know, negative and positive
[0:30:43 - 0:30:47] ▶
electrodes that creates greater thrust.
[0:30:47 - 0:30:49] ▶
So I find it fascinating that you have UFO parts that in the only anti-gravity or in one
[0:30:50 - 0:30:55] ▶
of the few anti-gravity experiments that we know of, it creates more thrust in that experiment.
[0:30:55 - 0:31:00] ▶
That seems really significant to me.
[0:31:01 - 0:31:02] ▶
And the other interesting thing is it has nano layers of the bismuth and magnesium and the,
[0:31:03 - 0:31:08] ▶
and one of the, one of the two is paramagnetic and the other is diamagnetic.
[0:31:09 - 0:31:12] ▶
So they're, they have two very different magnetic properties, which is interesting.
[0:31:13 - 0:31:17] ▶
So a lot of the, a lot of the modern work that we do in material science on like spintronics
[0:31:17 - 0:31:22] ▶
and this sort of thing basically is dealing with magnetic spins with diamagnetic and paramagnetic
[0:31:22 - 0:31:27] ▶
So, so a lot of the new breakthroughs in material science is related to these types of materials
[0:31:28 - 0:31:36] ▶
So this is interesting stuff.
[0:31:37 - 0:31:38] ▶
Gary was also, when I was at his lab, he showed me some of the pieces and he mentioned that
[0:31:40 - 0:31:46] ▶
some of these materials might be able to micro size wave guides for terahertz power.
[0:31:46 - 0:31:52] ▶
And do you, do you think that that's true?
[0:31:52 - 0:31:55] ▶
Do you think these, these pieces are able to do that?
[0:31:55 - 0:31:58] ▶
I don't know if that's possible that we haven't looked into.
[0:31:58 - 0:32:01] ▶
And I know, I know what Matthew's done, but I don't think that he's looked into that at
[0:32:02 - 0:32:07] ▶
What is, what is one scientific truth that you adamantly believe that conventional science
[0:32:08 - 0:32:16] ▶
disagrees with you vehemently on?
[0:32:16 - 0:32:17] ▶
That's a good question.
[0:32:22 - 0:32:23] ▶
I don't know if I have an answer immediately.
[0:32:24 - 0:32:26] ▶
You could dwell on it if you want for the movie.
[0:32:27 - 0:32:30] ▶
I might have to think about that.
[0:32:30 - 0:32:31] ▶
What do I, what do I, what, hmm.
[0:32:31 - 0:32:33] ▶
I don't know if, I don't know if there is one exactly.
[0:32:34 - 0:32:36] ▶
At NASA, you mentioned the people there weren't really into UFOs.
[0:32:38 - 0:32:42] ▶
How does, how do you square that with all this lore of them being interested in UFOs?
[0:32:42 - 0:32:47] ▶
And I don't know, you have like Diana Pasolka.
[0:32:48 - 0:32:51] ▶
Have you ever read her book, American Cosmic?
[0:32:51 - 0:32:53] ▶
So she has this NASA mission controller who I guess now is public, but his name is Tim
[0:32:53 - 0:32:59] ▶
And, you know, he's going around taking them to crash, UFO crash sites.
[0:32:59 - 0:33:04] ▶
Seems extremely read into any sort of UFO program that exists.
[0:33:04 - 0:33:08] ▶
There are individuals at NASA who are interested in that.
[0:33:08 - 0:33:12] ▶
And since I've gotten interested and been vocal about it, I've had some of the, some of them
[0:33:12 - 0:33:16] ▶
I knew when I was at NASA have come to talk to me and said, oh yeah, I was interested.
[0:33:16 - 0:33:20] ▶
Or I knew, I know something about this or that.
[0:33:20 - 0:33:23] ▶
You have Hal Pollenmeier who was a, I think he was both CIA and NASA showing up at Chris
[0:33:26 - 0:33:31] ▶
Bledsoe's door when he starts to attract UFOs.
[0:33:31 - 0:33:34] ▶
Which is very, it's like.
[0:33:35 - 0:33:37] ▶
Well, people come kind of come out of the woodwork.
[0:33:37 - 0:33:40] ▶
You find that, you know, I've now had a couple people from NASA, I find out were interested
[0:33:40 - 0:33:46] ▶
Like I wouldn't have thought that when I was back, you know, when I worked there, but.
[0:33:48 - 0:33:53] ▶
Is there a, when were, are they doing remote viewing in a professional capacity at NASA?
[0:33:54 - 0:33:58] ▶
So, um, I don't know.
[0:34:00 - 0:34:01] ▶
I don't want to tell on anybody, but some of this is actually public, but nobody's noticed.
[0:34:01 - 0:34:05] ▶
Um, so one of the people at NASA has actually written a CIA training manual for remote viewing.
[0:34:05 - 0:34:12] ▶
But this is, this is public?
[0:34:14 - 0:34:16] ▶
Well then, well, we can, uh, people are going to look it up.
[0:34:17 - 0:34:19] ▶
You can figure out who it is.
[0:34:20 - 0:34:20] ▶
No, I actually, I was, yeah, there was a, yeah.
[0:34:22 - 0:34:25] ▶
Well, if it's public, it's, you know, interesting.
[0:34:26 - 0:34:29] ▶
And, and that person did it before they came to NASA, but, um, but our current,
[0:34:30 - 0:34:35] ▶
the, or, or, or NASA, they may be retired now.
[0:34:35 - 0:34:38] ▶
You know, they also have a patent, I believe in 2003 on a barrel shaped asymmetric capacitor.
[0:34:39 - 0:34:45] ▶
And they put, they say, this is, we're talking about Thomas Townsend Brown.
[0:34:45 - 0:34:49] ▶
That, that works interesting too.
[0:34:49 - 0:34:51] ▶
It's very interesting.
[0:34:51 - 0:34:52] ▶
There are these, there are handfuls of people doing weird things here and there.
[0:34:53 - 0:34:59] ▶
And they've been, I mean, you, and once I've gotten involved with this, I find that those
[0:35:00 - 0:35:06] ▶
people are all over the place and they're all studying things they're not supposed to
[0:35:06 - 0:35:10] ▶
be studying, which is fascinating.
[0:35:10 - 0:35:12] ▶
On that patent, that NASA patent, I believe Larry Smalley, it has his name there.
[0:35:12 - 0:35:17] ▶
He's a university of Alabama Huntsville.
[0:35:17 - 0:35:19] ▶
He was the physics chair and under him was a woman named Ning Li.
[0:35:19 - 0:35:23] ▶
And she was studying, I think like, um, uh, superconductor based, you know, uh, uh, kind
[0:35:24 - 0:35:30] ▶
of weight reduction, uh, via kind of anti-gravity.
[0:35:30 - 0:35:33] ▶
I think she, she called it gravitons, gravity particles, um, would, would cause this sort of
[0:35:33 - 0:35:38] ▶
effect and, um, you know, obviously, you know, groundbreaking sort of controversial claim.
[0:35:38 - 0:35:44] ▶
And she speaks about this at some sort of MITRE corporation event.
[0:35:44 - 0:35:47] ▶
And, um, then she kind of, you know, goes dark, I think gets a security clearance, but,
[0:35:47 - 0:35:53] ▶
um, her physics, she leaves and starts a company.
[0:35:53 - 0:35:56] ▶
I think it's called anti-gravity LLC or something.
[0:35:56 - 0:35:58] ▶
And then her physics chair, Larry Smalley goes and joins her, which I think is lends credence
[0:35:59 - 0:36:03] ▶
to the actual findings, right?
[0:36:03 - 0:36:05] ▶
If your physics chair leaves, I mean, you, you know, academia, like it's kind of, okay.
[0:36:05 - 0:36:08] ▶
Everybody's got to be high conviction at that point.
[0:36:09 - 0:36:11] ▶
You don't leave a tenured position.
[0:36:11 - 0:36:13] ▶
And then his name shows up on a patent around a barrel shaped asymmetric capacitor, which is
[0:36:13 - 0:36:17] ▶
And it's talking about Townsend Brown.
[0:36:17 - 0:36:19] ▶
And I'm like, okay, what's going on?
[0:36:19 - 0:36:21] ▶
I find it fascinating.
[0:36:23 - 0:36:24] ▶
But, but I mean, one question I have is you have all these names pop up, right.
[0:36:24 - 0:36:29] ▶
And you have, you know, how put off is obviously like, seems so at the center of so much
[0:36:29 - 0:36:34] ▶
Um, but a lot of, a lot of the names that pop up in, in UFO science, quote unquote, uh,
[0:36:36 - 0:36:42] ▶
it's almost like there's some sort of like substructure of a lot of these like mega structure.
[0:36:43 - 0:36:47] ▶
So like NASA, I don't like, it almost seems like what you're saying is there is no official
[0:36:47 - 0:36:52] ▶
knowledge of UFOs, but it's like these people within NASA that are extremely interested in
[0:36:52 - 0:36:58] ▶
this stuff, how do you square that with like, you watch the age of disclosure and it's like,
[0:36:58 - 0:37:02] ▶
we have a legacy program, which you would, that implies some sort of like, you know, it's
[0:37:02 - 0:37:08] ▶
like super well coordinated.
[0:37:08 - 0:37:10] ▶
It's a different thing.
[0:37:10 - 0:37:11] ▶
So like what I always try to ask that I try to press on people here.
[0:37:11 - 0:37:15] ▶
Is it like, is there a program or is it like this hermetic substructure where people come
[0:37:15 - 0:37:22] ▶
together via synchronicities?
[0:37:22 - 0:37:23] ▶
Just people doing things.
[0:37:23 - 0:37:25] ▶
Um, I mean, that's one thing.
[0:37:25 - 0:37:27] ▶
I mean, scientists tinker as well.
[0:37:27 - 0:37:29] ▶
And, and NASA isn't like that now, but when I worked there, which was the early two thousands,
[0:37:30 - 0:37:36] ▶
you still were able to do like blue sky research as, as long as, I mean, the requirement was
[0:37:37 - 0:37:43] ▶
you had to convince your area lead that this was in line with NASA's missions basically in some way.
[0:37:43 - 0:37:51] ▶
And so, um, so, and that's all you had to do.
[0:37:51 - 0:37:54] ▶
And so then you could go off and work on this project, you know, now, and, and while I worked
[0:37:54 - 0:37:59] ▶
there near the end of the time I worked there during the Bush administration, they started
[0:37:59 - 0:38:02] ▶
what they called full cost accounting where they have to account for all their costs.
[0:38:02 - 0:38:06] ▶
So now, now you have to, you have to account for the time you spend on things.
[0:38:06 - 0:38:11] ▶
And, and if you're doing that, then you can't do this blue sky research on this.
[0:38:11 - 0:38:15] ▶
You can't do this little thing on the side.
[0:38:15 - 0:38:17] ▶
So for example, one of the things that we tried to do on the side, so this was a, um, yeah, why not?
[0:38:17 - 0:38:24] ▶
We, we had, I was interested in the, the Roswell, um, story and I was struck by the fact that the
[0:38:24 - 0:38:36] ▶
picture, you know, Jesse Marcel says one thing about the, the material and, and sounds entirely
[0:38:36 - 0:38:43] ▶
believable. And then they get the picture in the newspaper with general Ramey with what clearly is
[0:38:43 - 0:38:49] ▶
aluminum foil and balsa wood. Oh yeah. In the picture. Right. And, and you look at that picture
[0:38:49 - 0:38:55] ▶
and you think there's no way anybody's going to mistake that for any kind of craft debris.
[0:38:55 - 0:39:00] ▶
So what was Jesse Marcel thinking or did, was it as they claimed that they switched the debris?
[0:39:02 - 0:39:09] ▶
Right. And I think it's more likely they switched the debris.
[0:39:09 - 0:39:12] ▶
Well, Marcel claimed that the real UFO debris was off to the side, right outside of the frame.
[0:39:12 - 0:39:17] ▶
Right outside of the frame. Did he say that?
[0:39:17 - 0:39:19] ▶
I don't remember that. Yeah.
[0:39:19 - 0:39:20] ▶
He did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[0:39:20 - 0:39:21] ▶
He also said he brought it home and that his son played with it.
[0:39:21 - 0:39:23] ▶
He had said, yeah. He showed it with his son.
[0:39:23 - 0:39:24] ▶
So I think he would know the difference.
[0:39:25 - 0:39:27] ▶
He would know the difference. Right.
[0:39:27 - 0:39:28] ▶
So, so then there, there's the picture of general Ramey and he's holding a memo
[0:39:29 - 0:39:32] ▶
that you can see in the photographs and it's a clearly, it's marked stamped top secret. And I thought,
[0:39:33 - 0:39:38] ▶
what does that memo say? And so me and one of my colleagues at NASA, because we were,
[0:39:38 - 0:39:45] ▶
I was in the intelligence systems division. So our job was to develop
[0:39:45 - 0:39:48] ▶
machine learning systems to analyze data. And so we were doing a lot of work with imagery.
[0:39:51 - 0:39:56] ▶
I worked with Hubble imagery and I thought, why don't we try to clean, why don't we try cleaning
[0:39:56 - 0:40:01] ▶
up this memo and see what the memo says? So we actually wrote the algorithms to actually read this,
[0:40:01 - 0:40:08] ▶
this memo and it wrote them, got them running and we're testing them. And, and we just didn't have
[0:40:08 - 0:40:16] ▶
the computer power at the time. It was a 300 megahertz machines we were working on and, you know,
[0:40:16 - 0:40:21] ▶
we couldn't use the supercomputer for this. So we couldn't get away with that. Right. We could get
[0:40:21 - 0:40:26] ▶
away with using the 300 megahertz computer on this. And it just didn't have the computing power and
[0:40:26 - 0:40:32] ▶
computing time to do it. So, so we abandoned the project, but, but we had thought that we were
[0:40:32 - 0:40:37] ▶
going to, we were going, you know, our little dream was, all right, we're going to figure out
[0:40:37 - 0:40:41] ▶
what this memo says, and then we're going to publish it as a NASA publication, but it's going
[0:40:41 - 0:40:45] ▶
to be buried as an example. We're going to, the publication will be on our methodology and our
[0:40:45 - 0:40:52] ▶
algorithm. And then we'll have several examples. And one of them will be the Roswell memo. And then we'll
[0:40:52 - 0:40:57] ▶
make it public and make it an official NASA publication. Right. That was, that was our
[0:40:57 - 0:41:01] ▶
little plan. Our sneaky plan. I love it. And it just didn't work out because we couldn't
[0:41:01 - 0:41:05] ▶
analyze that imagery. Right. But this is, but this is what's going on behind the scenes and all,
[0:41:05 - 0:41:10] ▶
probably a lot of government labs, people are doing stuff like this, you know, maybe not trying
[0:41:10 - 0:41:14] ▶
to publish it, but, but trying to figure out if they can get something to work or try something interesting.
[0:41:14 - 0:41:20] ▶
Over the last couple of months, we've been designing the new American Alchemy merch drop,
[0:41:22 - 0:41:26] ▶
and I'm excited to say that the 2025 winter drop is finally ready. We now have 30 uniquely designed
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long sleeves, crewnecks, hoodies, tapered sweatpants, hats, totes, mugs, and tumblers. The Fukushima
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Japan pieces, for example, have detailed left chest embroidery. The morning of earth designs went
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through multiple revisions to get the fit exactly right. And the iron horse tee is something I think
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will be a hit for anyone who loved the UFO cowboy or our atomic age shirts from our last drop. We cut
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a lot of things that didn't meet our standards and we're really, really proud of each of these items.
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Everything is pretty limited, so there's no endless restocks. Once it's gone, it's entirely gone. If you
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missed anything from our original drops and you want to go out and represent, now's the time to go grab
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something. So go to AmericanAlchemyMerch.com to check it all out.
[0:42:17 - 0:42:22] ▶
So it's like there is this UFO truth, you have, you know, various crashes, you have various maybe
[0:42:22 - 0:42:32] ▶
scientific frameworks that are not public, and then you just have a bunch of vigilante efforts in little
[0:42:32 - 0:42:38] ▶
pockets and compartments like attempting to... You just got people trying things. You got people,
[0:42:38 - 0:42:42] ▶
smart people trying things. And it's, you know, I think what, you know, John, I think it was John
[0:42:42 - 0:42:46] ▶
Stewart said, isn't it amazing what scientists can do when no one makes them stop? And I think that's
[0:42:46 - 0:42:51] ▶
all it is. It's no one's making them stop and they're discovering things. And some of them are
[0:42:51 - 0:42:57] ▶
useful, some aren't, and some are really interesting and some they feel they probably shouldn't talk about.
[0:42:57 - 0:43:02] ▶
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[0:43:02 - 0:43:03] ▶
And I think that it's that simple. Yeah.
[0:43:03 - 0:43:05] ▶
In a lot of cases. Yeah. It's so fascinating. You have an interesting
[0:43:05 - 0:43:09] ▶
theory around water worlds and, you know, water being this really important
[0:43:09 - 0:43:14] ▶
kind of variable for UFO transport. Do you want to explain that?
[0:43:14 - 0:43:19] ▶
Yeah. Well, there's a few. Yeah. So it has two aspects. The first one is
[0:43:19 - 0:43:24] ▶
is why, you know, I was at one point wondering why are there so many
[0:43:29 - 0:43:33] ▶
USOs submerged, unidentified submerged craft? Why is that such a big thing? And, um,
[0:43:33 - 0:43:40] ▶
and when you think about living on a planet, um, living under an atmosphere is horrible. It's
[0:43:42 - 0:43:48] ▶
difficult. The weather is, the, the, the conditions change every day. They change daily, you know,
[0:43:48 - 0:43:54] ▶
hourly even. And I'm coming down here from Albany, I'm down here to Austin. You know, we had snowstorm
[0:43:54 - 0:44:00] ▶
this weekend in Albany or north of Albany. I drove through it from Montreal to Albany through a
[0:44:00 - 0:44:05] ▶
snowstorm. Um, and now we're down here and it's what, 60 degrees and sunny. And I hope to go to
[0:44:05 - 0:44:10] ▶
the botanical garden before I leave or something. Right. So the atmospheres are very, are quite variable.
[0:44:10 - 0:44:17] ▶
And now, now you go from earth to Venus. Venus's atmosphere has a hundred times the air pressure on
[0:44:17 - 0:44:24] ▶
earth, which would crush you. And it's about 800 degrees Fahrenheit. And actually I was at NASA
[0:44:24 - 0:44:32] ▶
Ames when the Magellan probe was doing radar mapping of Venus. And we were perplexed because the
[0:44:32 - 0:44:38] ▶
mountaintops would become radar reflective at times, and then it would fade. And then they would become
[0:44:38 - 0:44:45] ▶
reflective again and fade. And we were like, what's going on with this, these mountaintops
[0:44:45 - 0:44:49] ▶
and realize they would become reflective when the temperature would drop.
[0:44:49 - 0:44:52] ▶
So the temperature would drop, the mountaintops would become radar reflective. And they realized
[0:44:52 - 0:44:56] ▶
what was happening is vaporized lead and bismuth was making, was actually, um, making snowflakes.
[0:44:56 - 0:45:07] ▶
And so it was actually snowing lead and bismuth snow on the mountaintops. I mean, imagine what that,
[0:45:08 - 0:45:15] ▶
I can't imagine what that would look like to have metal snow. I want to go there and actually see that.
[0:45:15 - 0:45:20] ▶
But that's what they think, that's a cold day in hell, by the way, when you've got metal snow
[0:45:20 - 0:45:25] ▶
raining on the mountaintops. So that's what Venus's atmosphere is like, right? And then you go to Mars
[0:45:25 - 0:45:30] ▶
and Mars has one one hundredth the atmospheric pressure of earth. So you need a space suit and it's
[0:45:30 - 0:45:36] ▶
cold, you know, 100 degrees below zero Fahrenheit, something like that. Colder than Antarctica temperatures.
[0:45:36 - 0:45:41] ▶
So now, so now comparing Venus to Mars, the temperature difference is, is a factor of 10,000 different.
[0:45:41 - 0:45:52] ▶
It's huge. And now you consider a water world, water, water is only liquid from zero degrees Celsius to
[0:45:52 - 0:46:00] ▶
a hundred degrees Celsius, right? So you've got, as long as you have liquid water, you, you are in that
[0:46:00 - 0:46:06] ▶
temperature range, you're not going out of it. And so it's much more stable temperature wise.
[0:46:06 - 0:46:12] ▶
The pressure varies with depth dramatically. I mean, atmospheric pressure varies with atmospheric
[0:46:12 - 0:46:18] ▶
height as well, but, but because water is so much more dense, it's much more dramatic. So you can
[0:46:18 - 0:46:23] ▶
control what pressure you like by controlling the depth. And, and water has such a high heat capacity,
[0:46:23 - 0:46:31] ▶
the temperature doesn't change that much. You don't have the temperature fluctuations of water
[0:46:31 - 0:46:35] ▶
temperature that you do in an air temperature. So it's a much more stable environment. You're
[0:46:35 - 0:46:41] ▶
protected from solar radiation. You're protected from ultraviolet rays. You're protected from cosmic
[0:46:41 - 0:46:48] ▶
rays. You're protected from, you know, small meteorites at least. It's, and it's a great place to hide
[0:46:48 - 0:46:55] ▶
electromagnetism. Electromagnetic waves don't travel far in water. So you can't see far, you can't,
[0:46:55 - 0:47:01] ▶
you can't detect things with electromagnetism very well. And which is why we use sonar. Right. And
[0:47:01 - 0:47:06] ▶
so it's a great place to hide. Yeah. It's so there's every reason to go to the water.
[0:47:07 - 0:47:12] ▶
It's fascinating. So if you were like a Kardashev three or four scale civilization,
[0:47:13 - 0:47:18] ▶
and you wanted to colonize a bunch of other planets, water is the perfect hideout spot.
[0:47:18 - 0:47:23] ▶
It's evidence. Yeah. Well, that's the other thing. So you, you only have,
[0:47:23 - 0:47:27] ▶
you only have a couple of choices, right? So if you're going to go to colonize another star system,
[0:47:27 - 0:47:32] ▶
you've got to carry everything you need to do it with you. Right. So getting already,
[0:47:32 - 0:47:38] ▶
the traveling is hard. It's going to be hard for anybody. But, but bringing everything you need to,
[0:47:38 - 0:47:44] ▶
to build up a base or some kind of settlement is, is going to be extra difficult. So you see,
[0:47:44 - 0:47:49] ▶
you really have, have a few options and water worlds we now know are relatively common. You know,
[0:47:49 - 0:47:55] ▶
we have several water worlds in our, in our solar system. Mostly, most of them are frozen moons,
[0:47:55 - 0:48:00] ▶
icy surfaces, but there's oceans underneath. Right. So you can either, you can either plan to
[0:48:00 - 0:48:07] ▶
colonize. You can either just plan to stay in your spaceships, right? We're just going to live in our
[0:48:07 - 0:48:12] ▶
spaceships. That's probably the easiest thing to do. Right. Or to colonize airless worlds like the moon,
[0:48:12 - 0:48:19] ▶
which is no different than staying in your spaceship. But then the other option is to
[0:48:19 - 0:48:24] ▶
live on a planet. And if you want to live on a planet to access its resources, you're either
[0:48:24 - 0:48:29] ▶
going to go with an airless world and stay in your spaceship, or the next most reasonable choice
[0:48:29 - 0:48:35] ▶
would be to go to water. Yeah. And so it's, it's also evidence, as you said, of this kind of
[0:48:35 - 0:48:40] ▶
Goldilocks temperature zone. I think water is specifically unique as well, because the way that
[0:48:40 - 0:48:45] ▶
hydrogen and oxygen bond in an H2O molecule is a perfect crystal lattice structure. And so it's unique in
[0:48:45 - 0:48:52] ▶
that the solid form of it is actually less dense than the liquid form of it. So you end up with,
[0:48:52 - 0:48:57] ▶
you know, these worlds that don't flood because you end up with a lot of, a lot of ice. Um, and so,
[0:48:57 - 0:49:04] ▶
you know, that's fascinating as well. And then I think that the final thing on the UFO front
[0:49:04 - 0:49:07] ▶
is you're talking about tons and tons of power. Uh, if you were to theoretically break hydrogen and
[0:49:07 - 0:49:15] ▶
oxygen bonds in H2O, you would get a ton of power. Yeah. You can use water for, for storing energy
[0:49:15 - 0:49:21] ▶
that way. Yeah. Or for fuel. And then seas and, you know, seas have dissolved minerals in them. So
[0:49:21 - 0:49:27] ▶
you could, I mean, it's not a fast process, but you can, you could extract any kind of mineral you want.
[0:49:28 - 0:49:33] ▶
Mm. Any, any atom, any atom you want, you can probably pull out of seawater. You know, whether you
[0:49:33 - 0:49:39] ▶
can do it fast enough to get a substantial amount is really the question. But so, but that would be
[0:49:39 - 0:49:44] ▶
easier than mining. Right. Do you think there are UFO bases in our oceans? Tim Burchette recently said
[0:49:44 - 0:49:50] ▶
there are five, uh, oceanic hotspots across the world. We have a higher propensity of sightings
[0:49:50 - 0:49:59] ▶
around these five or six, I believe, deep area, deep water areas. And so to me, it just, um,
[0:49:59 - 0:50:05] ▶
it creates a, um, a question there. Do you think there are UFO bases? I think that's probably,
[0:50:06 - 0:50:12] ▶
that that's probably the best bet. Really? Yeah. And you went to Catalina,
[0:50:12 - 0:50:17] ▶
right? I went to Catalina, yeah. Which is one of the, it's off the coast of Southern
[0:50:17 - 0:50:20] ▶
California. And a lot of people think it's this UFO hotspot. There's a great, um, book. I think
[0:50:20 - 0:50:25] ▶
it's called under underwater or undersea UFO base by Preston Dennett. Right. And there's a ton of history
[0:50:25 - 0:50:31] ▶
in the region. And so what did you find when you went out there? Yeah. Well, we, we spent,
[0:50:31 - 0:50:36] ▶
we spent five days on a rooftop in Laguna beach and watching the skies and
[0:50:36 - 0:50:41] ▶
and, um, and it's all documented in the, the movie, A Tear in the Sky. So, um,
[0:50:41 - 0:50:49] ▶
and the movie best documents what the, basically how the mission progressed. Right. And so it's one of
[0:50:50 - 0:51:00] ▶
the first, you know, university supported UFO data collection missions that, that we know of has happened.
[0:51:00 - 0:51:09] ▶
Right. Right. So, um, so there's a lot of excitement. There's a lot of excitement in that movie and that's real excitement. Right.
[0:51:09 - 0:51:16] ▶
Yeah. And, um, and we did see, we did see some interesting things that, um, and so here comes some spoilers.
[0:51:16 - 0:51:23] ▶
Yeah. So, and so I'm going to spoil things twice. So, so there's at one point, there's a bright light
[0:51:24 - 0:51:30] ▶
that's seen from the team in Catalina Island, which was across the Catalina channel. We had two, two teams.
[0:51:30 - 0:51:35] ▶
They spotted this bright light that was moving. Um, and they said, it's too bright to be a satellite. It's,
[0:51:36 - 0:51:42] ▶
it's, you know, going in this direction. So we're, we're looking for it as well. So we recorded this object and, um,
[0:51:43 - 0:51:49] ▶
then it just abruptly disappears and which is very strange. And, um, and the problem with documentaries
[0:51:49 - 0:51:57] ▶
is that, yes, it takes a long time to make a film, maybe a year to two years. In some cases,
[0:51:57 - 0:52:03] ▶
um, science takes a lot longer, we're a lot slower. And, um, so the scientific study of what the data we
[0:52:04 - 0:52:12] ▶
collected took a lot longer and that got published just last year. So our mission was what in 2021
[0:52:12 - 0:52:18] ▶
tear in the sky, I think came out in 2023, something like that. And our scientific paper
[0:52:19 - 0:52:24] ▶
on the mission came out just this summer. Um, Matthew Shadagas was the first author of that paper.
[0:52:24 - 0:52:31] ▶
And so we found that that bright light was the space station. Um, why didn't we figure that out
[0:52:31 - 0:52:38] ▶
earlier? The app we were using to track satellites didn't take into account daylight savings time,
[0:52:38 - 0:52:43] ▶
a stupid mistake, right? That we shouldn't have made, but this is your first time doing this.
[0:52:44 - 0:52:49] ▶
And you make, and I remember telling Matthew on our space station looks weird, by the way.
[0:52:50 - 0:52:54] ▶
It looks really weird.
[0:52:54 - 0:52:55] ▶
It looks like a UFO. Yeah.
[0:52:55 - 0:52:57] ▶
And I remember telling Matthew on the airplane, he, you know, we were both excited. Oh,
[0:52:57 - 0:53:00] ▶
there's gonna be so much fun. Think, imagine what we can see. And I said, yeah, but the problem is
[0:53:00 - 0:53:04] ▶
we're just, what we're probably gonna learn is what not to do.
[0:53:04 - 0:53:08] ▶
Right. And that's really what happened that first mission. We learned how not to do it.
[0:53:09 - 0:53:13] ▶
Um, but Matthew is the one who figured out it was the space station. He put it all together and he
[0:53:14 - 0:53:19] ▶
actually took the pixel size on the camera. And then, um, knowing the altitude of the space station,
[0:53:19 - 0:53:27] ▶
figured out how big the space station should be. And he was within one foot of the size of the space
[0:53:27 - 0:53:33] ▶
size of the space station. It's really a nice analysis. He does put it in the appendix and,
[0:53:33 - 0:53:37] ▶
um, and yeah, something to be proud of the fact that, yeah, we identified it to be the space station
[0:53:38 - 0:53:45] ▶
and actually proved it. Right. So that's cool. Um, and other, another event that happened, whereas
[0:53:45 - 0:53:51] ▶
these, um, one of the FLIR cameras was showing these objects dropping to the sea. And, um,
[0:53:51 - 0:53:59] ▶
um, and I was actually at the time looking through night vision goggles, this didn't end up in the
[0:53:59 - 0:54:04] ▶
movie and people were too excited about the FLIR camera to hear me shouting about the night. I was
[0:54:04 - 0:54:09] ▶
telling people, put on your night vision goggles and look over here. Um, but I saw something actually
[0:54:09 - 0:54:14] ▶
drop and hit the water in infrared. Whoa. Um, you get that on video?
[0:54:14 - 0:54:19] ▶
No, no, I was just looking through the goggles, watching for things and, um,
[0:54:19 - 0:54:22] ▶
but it was through infrared. It was in infrared. Yeah. And then, then, um, and I think they tried
[0:54:22 - 0:54:28] ▶
to simulate this in the film, but it's not simulated properly. They showed the same hovering. It wasn't,
[0:54:28 - 0:54:33] ▶
it just dropped. Wow. But, but the FLIR cameras recorded things dropping into the sea and we, um,
[0:54:33 - 0:54:39] ▶
so you think you saw a UFO? I don't know what I saw actually, but because, but I was excited because
[0:54:39 - 0:54:45] ▶
it happened about the same time the FLIR cameras showing things dropping, but then we figured out
[0:54:45 - 0:54:49] ▶
later that the FLIR camera was actually malfunctioning and that's, and that's a failure
[0:54:49 - 0:54:53] ▶
mode of the FLIR cameras. We actually talked to the engineers who was on the side of these things.
[0:54:53 - 0:54:56] ▶
Is seeing something drop. Yeah. These things falling down is actually a failure mode.
[0:54:56 - 0:54:59] ▶
Oh, so maybe it was an issue with the camera. So, so the FLIR camera recording we had was not
[0:54:59 - 0:55:05] ▶
something dropping into the sea. Um, I don't know what I saw and probably we'll never know because
[0:55:05 - 0:55:11] ▶
you can't, it has to be reproducible, right? You have to be able to see it again and
[0:55:11 - 0:55:14] ▶
try different things. Is there a best sensor modality if you're trying to spot UFOs?
[0:55:14 - 0:55:19] ▶
I think as many sensors as you can. Is there one, say you had to pick one
[0:55:19 - 0:55:25] ▶
and you had to, you know, what, what would you pick? If I picked one, I would try, that's tough.
[0:55:25 - 0:55:30] ▶
I think I would go with a FLIR camera is a good choice for a few reasons.
[0:55:31 - 0:55:35] ▶
One, you get a visual record of the object. It's not a very good visual record because it's going to be
[0:55:36 - 0:55:41] ▶
blurry because it's infrared. I've heard people complain, oh, the Navy produces all these,
[0:55:41 - 0:55:46] ▶
and these blurry photos of UFOs. Well, they're infrared images. What do you expect? I've heard
[0:55:46 - 0:55:51] ▶
scientists say this and you want to slap them upside the head and say, what did you think was
[0:55:51 - 0:55:55] ▶
going to happen? And so, you know, but the other benefit of, is for, with a FLIR camera is you can
[0:55:55 - 0:56:03] ▶
measure the temperature of the object because you're picking up infrared emissions, right? So those,
[0:56:03 - 0:56:10] ▶
that black body infrared spectrum actually gives you the temperature of the object.
[0:56:10 - 0:56:14] ▶
Yeah. So where, where white hot comes from.
[0:56:14 - 0:56:16] ▶
Yeah. So now, so, so not only do you get a visual record of the object, but you get its temperature
[0:56:16 - 0:56:21] ▶
too, which is, which is in, you get extra pieces of information for that. So for that reason,
[0:56:21 - 0:56:25] ▶
I probably would choose a FLIR camera. Is there a sighting or a crash that you rank as
[0:56:25 - 0:56:33] ▶
highest conviction as far as your analysis of it, that like you, you are convinced that this happened?
[0:56:33 - 0:56:41] ▶
Oh, I would have to say the most convincing one is one of the most hard to believe ones. It's,
[0:56:41 - 0:56:56] ▶
um, JAL airline, JAL 1628.
[0:56:56 - 0:57:00] ▶
It was a Japan airlines cargo flight piloted by Captain Kenju Tarauchi. This is the sketch
[0:57:00 - 0:57:06] ▶
Tarauchi drew of what he says he saw at his window that night. And this Japanese television
[0:57:06 - 0:57:10] ▶
graphic is based on his description.
[0:57:10 - 0:57:23] ▶
And I, and I remember, I remember that being on the nightly news. I remember watching,
[0:57:23 - 0:57:29] ▶
it was on NBC, Tom Brokaw, Kenny, Connie Chung. I remember that being on the news and being,
[0:57:29 - 0:57:35] ▶
holy shit, there's giant aircraft carrier sized walnut shaped UFO followed
[0:57:35 - 0:57:40] ▶
that Japanese airlines for 45 minutes across Alaska.
[0:57:41 - 0:57:44] ▶
Wild. Give us the whole sequence.
[0:57:44 - 0:57:47] ▶
Yeah. So these guys, so the Japanese airlines, they, it's a, it's not a passenger jet. It's a 747.
[0:57:47 - 0:57:55] ▶
They are transporting Bujolet Nouveau. Yep. They got wine in the back. Let the skeptics rejoice.
[0:57:55 - 0:58:01] ▶
No, the pilots were not drunk on Bujolet Nouveau. It's just a silly thing.
[0:58:01 - 0:58:06] ▶
They're just transporting it.
[0:58:06 - 0:58:08] ▶
Yeah. They're just transporting it and they're flying across Alaska. And,
[0:58:08 - 0:58:12] ▶
and first, I don't remember all the events and several things happened. They actually saw several
[0:58:12 - 0:58:19] ▶
UFOs first, these rectangular things show up in front of the ship and have these lights that go up
[0:58:19 - 0:58:25] ▶
and down shining light into the cockpit. And the, the pilots could feel the heat from the light of
[0:58:25 - 0:58:31] ▶
these objects and they're like scanning or, you know, like that kind of behavior. Um, and they follow
[0:58:31 - 0:58:38] ▶
in front of the plane for some time. And then, um, and then this giant walnut shaped
[0:58:38 - 0:58:44] ▶
object shows up. That's something like four 747s in length, right? So this thing's the thing's the
[0:58:46 - 0:58:52] ▶
size of an aircraft carrier. And the, the pilot said that when it was in front of the plane,
[0:58:52 - 0:58:58] ▶
he couldn't see anything, but the craft, right? It's that big. So it's unmistakable. I mean,
[0:58:58 - 0:59:04] ▶
and he's screaming at air traffic control, you know, what do I do about this? And they're not
[0:59:04 - 0:59:10] ▶
picking it up on radar. And so, um, it was later found that military height finding radar was picking
[0:59:10 - 0:59:18] ▶
it up. And so that radar actually, that those radar records actually got collected. And, um,
[0:59:18 - 0:59:25] ▶
and so those walnut shaped craft basically follow the 747 for about 45 minutes, stayed about seven
[0:59:26 - 0:59:33] ▶
kilometers away, but it would go from one side of the plane to the other. It was bouncing around
[0:59:33 - 0:59:37] ▶
from one side to the other. And, um, and we analyzed its speed and acceleration just crudely
[0:59:37 - 0:59:47] ▶
based on the description of what it was doing. So it would go. So at one point it would be at like
[0:59:48 - 0:59:53] ▶
one o'clock and then the next sweep of the radar, which is about 12 seconds or so would be, would be at
[0:59:53 - 0:59:59] ▶
six o'clock. And so we were using those, that information to estimate speeds and accelerations.
[0:59:59 - 1:00:06] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, another, um, physicist from the Niels Bohr Institute actually took the radar. I didn't,
[1:00:07 - 1:00:14] ▶
I didn't know that we could get our hands on the radar measurements when we published that paper,
[1:00:14 - 1:00:18] ▶
but he actually got the radar data and he analyzed that he was analyzing the jumps and he found that the
[1:00:18 - 1:00:24] ▶
object was accelerating at took several dumps, jumps, different accelerations at different times.
[1:00:24 - 1:00:29] ▶
But there were three, three of them were the accelerations were greater than 9,000 G's.
[1:00:30 - 1:00:35] ▶
One of them was like 11,000 G's and the top speed he estimated to be 250,000 miles an hour.
[1:00:37 - 1:00:44] ▶
And at 250,000 miles an hour, you can get to the moon in 54 minutes.
[1:00:45 - 1:00:49] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, That's, that's not a joke.
[1:00:51 - 1:00:53] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, So you've got something the size of an aircraft carrier
[1:00:53 - 1:00:56] ▶
that could get to the moon in less than an hour, right? That's basically what you've,
[1:00:57 - 1:01:01] ▶
you're dealing with here. So that's what, and we have, and we have the radar data from that.
[1:01:01 - 1:01:06] ▶
David Pérez, We have the radar data.
[1:01:06 - 1:01:07] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, We have the radar data.
[1:01:07 - 1:01:08] ▶
David Pérez, That's amazing. I didn't know that.
[1:01:08 - 1:01:09] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, That's amazing. Yeah. John Callahan, who was the FAA
[1:01:09 - 1:01:12] ▶
chief of accidents and investigations actually reviewed the case. And then Reagan, President
[1:01:13 - 1:01:19] ▶
Reagan's scientific team and the CIA showed up and they wanted all the data.
[1:01:19 - 1:01:25] ▶
David Pérez, No way.
[1:01:25 - 1:01:26] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, And so they came to collect the data. Callahan copied it and put it in a box that
[1:01:26 - 1:01:32] ▶
he just put under his desk. And so he had a copy of it and he didn't turn that over. So they got-
[1:01:32 - 1:01:40] ▶
David Pérez, And that's public now?
[1:01:40 - 1:01:41] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, And now that's public.
[1:01:41 - 1:01:42] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, He held onto it for like 20 years. And then when he retired, he made it public.
[1:01:43 - 1:01:47] ▶
David Pérez, Good for him.
[1:01:47 - 1:01:47] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Yeah. He's a hero, right?
[1:01:47 - 1:01:49] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Kinda. Yeah.
[1:01:49 - 1:01:50] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Yeah.
[1:01:50 - 1:01:50] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Yeah. But he said, so when he was in the meeting with Reagan's scientific team,
[1:01:50 - 1:01:54] ▶
they were all excited. They said, we've never had 45 minutes of radar data from one of these things
[1:01:54 - 1:01:58] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, And so that exists. But from that radar data, it's accelerating at 10,000 g's,
[1:01:59 - 1:02:07] ▶
250,000 miles an hour. And you can actually see the position of the plane on the radar.
[1:02:07 - 1:02:12] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, That is remarkable.
[1:02:12 - 1:02:13] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, And at the one point where the plane actually does a 360 to try to shake this thing,
[1:02:13 - 1:02:18] ▶
you can actually see that on the radar. So the radar is working.
[1:02:18 - 1:02:20] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Are the pilots still alive?
[1:02:20 - 1:02:22] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Yeah, I think so.
[1:02:22 - 1:02:23] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, I want to get in touch with them.
[1:02:23 - 1:02:24] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Yeah, I'm sure. The one pilot was actually fired.
[1:02:24 - 1:02:27] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Okay.
[1:02:27 - 1:02:27] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Okay.
[1:02:27 - 1:02:29] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, For going public with it. He was fired and had his license taken away. And then
[1:02:29 - 1:02:33] ▶
several years later, it was reinstated.
[1:02:33 - 1:02:35] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, That's horrible that he was fired for that. I mean, what are you supposed to,
[1:02:35 - 1:02:39] ▶
you experienced something that kind of traumatic and worldview shattering.
[1:02:39 - 1:02:43] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, What would lying about it be a better thing to do for flight safety?
[1:02:43 - 1:02:47] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Yeah, right.
[1:02:47 - 1:02:48] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, That's really the question.
[1:02:48 - 1:02:49] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Just ignore it. Yeah, that's crazy. Fascinating. You know, there's that audio recording
[1:02:49 - 1:02:54] ▶
of Steven Spielberg, I believe, talking about his trip to the White House. And they do a viewing of ET.
[1:02:54 - 1:03:02] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, Oh, right. I've heard this. Yes.
[1:03:02 - 1:03:04] ▶
Daniel Kumbay, And Reagan says, you know, a lot of you in this room know that everything on that screen there
[1:03:04 - 1:03:10] ▶
that you just watched is true. And he just stood up and he looked around the room,
[1:03:10 - 1:03:14] ▶
almost like it was doing a head count. And he said, I want to thank you for bringing
[1:03:14 - 1:03:18] ▶
ET to the White House. We really enjoyed your movie. And then he looked around the room,
[1:03:19 - 1:03:22] ▶
he said, and there are a number of people in this room who know that everything on that screen is
[1:03:22 - 1:03:28] ▶
absolutely true. And he said it without smiling. But he said that. And everybody laughed, by the way,
[1:03:28 - 1:03:35] ▶
the whole room laughed because he presented it like a joke, but he wasn't smiling as he said it.
[1:03:35 - 1:03:39] ▶
And so, yeah, it's pretty interesting, right?
[1:03:39 - 1:03:42] ▶
That's interesting, right?
[1:03:42 - 1:03:43] ▶
Yeah. Well, that's fascinating that people from his scientific team,
[1:03:43 - 1:03:46] ▶
I mean, it sounds like they were pretty aware of this to say, oh, we've never had 45 minutes,
[1:03:47 - 1:03:53] ▶
but it's like, that implies, okay, you're sitting on maybe, you know, shorter clips of UFOs.
[1:03:53 - 1:03:59] ▶
They've got shorter clips. Yeah, they've got something.
[1:03:59 - 1:04:00] ▶
They've got something. Yeah. I mean, Alaska is a hotspot historically, as well. I believe
[1:04:00 - 1:04:07] ▶
Nathan Twining, who's head of Air Material Command responsible for all aircraft development of the
[1:04:07 - 1:04:11] ▶
Air Force, wrote the famous Twining memo in 1947 saying, UFOs are not visionary nor fictitious.
[1:04:11 - 1:04:18] ▶
He, I believe they had like an observation program going on in Alaska. And then just recently you had,
[1:04:19 - 1:04:25] ▶
it was this weird sequence of events, but in 2020, early 2023, you had the Chinese spy balloon.
[1:04:25 - 1:04:31] ▶
Right after that, you had this bizarre, you know, these things seem to show up and like,
[1:04:32 - 1:04:37] ▶
jam, you know, the radars of these F-22s. And one of them specifically was in Alaska and crashed.
[1:04:37 - 1:04:44] ▶
And I've heard some very strange things around this specific craft. I've heard things like it reassembled
[1:04:45 - 1:04:53] ▶
itself and was seen in the air over Canada.
[1:04:53 - 1:04:56] ▶
I've heard something, I've heard something about deleted emails involving this specific
[1:04:57 - 1:05:02] ▶
craft in the National Military Command Center servers. So I don't know. It seems like there's
[1:05:02 - 1:05:08] ▶
something strange about this craft and this, this was also in Alaska. So who knows?
[1:05:08 - 1:05:13] ▶
Wow. That's amazing.
[1:05:13 - 1:05:14] ▶
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing to know that,
[1:05:15 - 1:05:18] ▶
you know, his scientific, Reagan's scientific team had gotten that data. What did they do with it?
[1:05:18 - 1:05:22] ▶
What is, you know, what are, where are their reports? I would like to see that, you know, the,
[1:05:22 - 1:05:26] ▶
disclose those. That would be interesting, you know, alone. The Kecksburg, Pennsylvania,
[1:05:29 - 1:05:37] ▶
Yeah. And my, my dad's cousin, Donald Hornig, he was later the president of Brown University, was on,
[1:05:42 - 1:05:49] ▶
he was the scientific advisor to presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson.
[1:05:49 - 1:05:56] ▶
Yeah. That was my dad's, my dad's cousin did that. In fact, he, he's the person who, he designed the,
[1:05:57 - 1:06:02] ▶
the electronic triggers for the, the, um, plutonium bomb.
[1:06:04 - 1:06:08] ▶
And the, um, Manhattan project.
[1:06:08 - 1:06:10] ▶
And, and the night before the first test and Trinity, the, he was,
[1:06:13 - 1:06:18] ▶
Oppenheimer gave him a sidearm and had him babysit the bomb up in the tower during a thunderstorm.
[1:06:19 - 1:06:24] ▶
And, and I was surprised that they didn't put that in the movie Oppenheimer, because it's an awesome
[1:06:25 - 1:06:29] ▶
story. But the movie is about Oppenheimer, not about the Manhattan project. But, but he was,
[1:06:29 - 1:06:35] ▶
um, yeah, so that was, and his wife was, but his wife was in the movie. Lily, Lily Hornig was in the
[1:06:35 - 1:06:41] ▶
movie. She was the woman who came from Harvard. And, um, some of the things she actually said,
[1:06:41 - 1:06:47] ▶
she told us this at dinner once we visited her in Rhode Island when she was still alive. But she said
[1:06:47 - 1:06:53] ▶
when she got to, um, Los Alamos and was being interviewed for a position, they asked her how fast
[1:06:53 - 1:07:01] ▶
she typed and she goes, they don't teach typing at Harvard. And they used that line in the movie,
[1:07:01 - 1:07:06] ▶
That is fascinating.
[1:07:08 - 1:07:09] ▶
So, but I, but, so I mentioned that because, um, because Donald Hornig was,
[1:07:09 - 1:07:13] ▶
was the chief scientific advisor to president Johnson, who was president during the Kecksburg
[1:07:13 - 1:07:19] ▶
crash. And I found, I had actually found a document about the Kecksburg UFO and Donald
[1:07:19 - 1:07:25] ▶
Hornig was listed as being present. And I thought, oh my God. And I, I didn't never got to meet him.
[1:07:25 - 1:07:30] ▶
Um, and, and I did, I did ask his wife, Lily about it, but she didn't know.
[1:07:30 - 1:07:36] ▶
Uh, I don't know. I, maybe I have to look for it. There was some kind of,
[1:07:37 - 1:07:40] ▶
some kind of summary about the Kecksburg crash and something. It was some kind of government
[1:07:40 - 1:07:45] ▶
Official, official government document?
[1:07:46 - 1:07:47] ▶
It was official. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:07:47 - 1:07:48] ▶
And, and it was listed as being present, which he should have been. So I was like, well,
[1:07:48 - 1:07:52] ▶
this is all pretty authentic.
[1:07:52 - 1:07:53] ▶
But that's, that's even absent the fact that he's your dad's cousin, which is a remarkable synchronicity.
[1:07:53 - 1:07:58] ▶
Yeah. The fact that a pre the presidential science advisor is on site at a UFO crash.
[1:07:58 - 1:08:05] ▶
Is amazing unto itself.
[1:08:06 - 1:08:08] ▶
Oh, that's true. Yeah. That's a good point.
[1:08:08 - 1:08:09] ▶
That's a really big deal. I think Eric Walker was supposed to supposedly present as well at
[1:08:09 - 1:08:14] ▶
the Kecksburg crash. He was the, um, I believe president of Penn state and he was kind of a
[1:08:14 - 1:08:19] ▶
material science guy. I don't know if you know anything about him, but he's an interesting
[1:08:19 - 1:08:23] ▶
guy who like seems to imply to many researchers, UFO researchers that he's very aware of the majestic
[1:08:23 - 1:08:30] ▶
12 and what they do. And you know, who knows?
[1:08:30 - 1:08:33] ▶
I don't know. Do you, do you lend credence to any of those sorts of stories? The idea
[1:08:34 - 1:08:39] ▶
that there's sort of an elite military scientific, uh,
[1:08:39 - 1:08:42] ▶
I can't, I, I wouldn't be surprised if they were true.
[1:08:42 - 1:08:45] ▶
Um, I don't know if I would just jump on believing they're true without any evidence, but, um,
[1:08:45 - 1:08:51] ▶
But, you know, if I was, if I found out they were true, I wouldn't, it wouldn't shock me at all.
[1:08:52 - 1:08:57] ▶
Well, it's like if the UFO issue is real and understood at the highest levels of government,
[1:08:57 - 1:09:01] ▶
of course they would have some sort of elite body.
[1:09:01 - 1:09:04] ▶
Of course there's somebody, some kind of group of, and if it's not a formal group,
[1:09:04 - 1:09:07] ▶
there's probably informal groups and all that sort of thing. Yeah.
[1:09:07 - 1:09:12] ▶
Yeah. Do you think, you know, we've mentioned nuclear connection a bunch in this conversation.
[1:09:12 - 1:09:17] ▶
Do you think that, uh, not only UFOs are just showing up around nuclear sites, but that the
[1:09:17 - 1:09:23] ▶
secrecy, uh, involved in the atomic energy commission and the department of energy, uh, overlays
[1:09:23 - 1:09:30] ▶
UFO secrecy and that the program is somehow bound up in, you know, atomic stuff.
[1:09:30 - 1:09:35] ▶
Well, that's a good question too. Yeah. It's not clear how
[1:09:35 - 1:09:39] ▶
it looks like the, the, an SCU did a study of this, of UFOs monitoring nuclear sites. And so
[1:09:42 - 1:09:54] ▶
it looks like whoever's behind the whole UFO business, whoever these guys are, have been
[1:09:54 - 1:10:01] ▶
performing, you know, surveillance this whole time. They're surveilling us and it, and it's
[1:10:01 - 1:10:06] ▶
intelligence surveillance. They know what they're doing. And in fact, the SCU study showed that
[1:10:06 - 1:10:10] ▶
not only do you, so when you, they compared UFO sightings at nuclear sites compared to nearby
[1:10:10 - 1:10:18] ▶
military bases and nearby population centers, and the nuclear sites have more, you know, in the early
[1:10:19 - 1:10:25] ▶
forties had more, um, UFO sightings than any of the other places. Whoa. Nearby. So it shows that it's
[1:10:25 - 1:10:31] ▶
statistically significant that they're hanging out at nuclear sites. Yeah. Now, what's weird about it
[1:10:32 - 1:10:36] ▶
is that they are present at the nuclear sites before we, before they were totally constructed.
[1:10:36 - 1:10:44] ▶
And before they had nuclear material there, radioactive material there.
[1:10:44 - 1:10:48] ▶
So while some of these sites were being built, UFOs were present.
[1:10:49 - 1:10:54] ▶
That's definitely right.
[1:10:54 - 1:10:55] ▶
And so now you're like, wait a minute, how did they know that something important is going to be there,
[1:10:55 - 1:11:00] ▶
right? How do they know what they know?
[1:11:00 - 1:11:02] ▶
There's something about nuclear that they're really concerned with or interested in. There's,
[1:11:02 - 1:11:07] ▶
I think in 1945, there's a pilot named Bud Clem, and he's flying over Hanford Plutonium Base.
[1:11:07 - 1:11:13] ▶
It was Hanford, yeah.
[1:11:13 - 1:11:13] ▶
And it was like, yeah, before the thing was fully up.
[1:11:13 - 1:11:16] ▶
And he's seeing UFOs. And Robert Hastings has an interview with him.
[1:11:16 - 1:11:21] ▶
When we got down there, they told us that this boat, he was out there right over the Hanford
[1:11:21 - 1:11:25] ▶
Ordnance Works and directed the Lieutenant Commander Brown to take off and challenge him.
[1:11:25 - 1:11:31] ▶
Yeah. And I think I mentioned him in our paper. I've got the, we published a paper this year on
[1:11:31 - 1:11:37] ▶
the scientific study of UAP. It basically goes through the history of how people have tried to
[1:11:37 - 1:11:42] ▶
study this. And I mentioned Bud Clem's sightings at Hanford there.
[1:11:42 - 1:11:48] ▶
Mm. Yeah. It's so fascinating. That connection is, and there are all these theories you can,
[1:11:48 - 1:11:54] ▶
one can have. One is that they're sort of doing some sort of intelligence recon or something. And then,
[1:11:54 - 1:12:00] ▶
another is that they're just protecting their resources. Somehow the earth maintaining itself
[1:12:01 - 1:12:06] ▶
in its current form is important, or maybe we're a resource, you know, humans are a resource to them.
[1:12:06 - 1:12:11] ▶
And so they need to intervene and ensure, you know, things don't, we don't blow ourselves up or
[1:12:11 - 1:12:17] ▶
But it's, it's really hard to say. I mean, I know like the Age of Disclosure,
[1:12:17 - 1:12:21] ▶
Lou Elizondo, you know, kind of crew, like they talk about it as far as
[1:12:21 - 1:12:25] ▶
like, uh, they're monitoring our ability to achieve energy breakthroughs. So that would be the tip of
[1:12:26 - 1:12:33] ▶
the spear of energy breakthroughs. Like high energy physics occurs in the national labs and your,
[1:12:33 - 1:12:37] ▶
you know, atomic sites and that sort of thing. And, you know, we could, we could break out of our
[1:12:37 - 1:12:42] ▶
cage or something if we, if we achieve some unlock. And so there are various theories.
[1:12:42 - 1:12:47] ▶
Humans are a hot mess, right? And so if they, if they're present in the universe,
[1:12:47 - 1:12:52] ▶
in our neighborhood, and then right now they don't have to deal with us directly,
[1:12:52 - 1:12:57] ▶
but if we go out there, they might have to deal with us. I think Stanton Friedman put it this way.
[1:12:57 - 1:13:01] ▶
It's kind of like, you've got a neighborhood where you've got this one house on the block
[1:13:01 - 1:13:06] ▶
with crazy neighbors. There's always, the police are always there. They're screaming and yelling and
[1:13:06 - 1:13:10] ▶
things breaking. And you can hear that going on in the house in the block. And then one day the
[1:13:10 - 1:13:15] ▶
neighbors come out of the, out of the house and they're in the yard and now you have to deal with
[1:13:15 - 1:13:18] ▶
them. Right. And so he was, he was describing human, the humanity this way. And I thought that's
[1:13:18 - 1:13:23] ▶
pretty good, pretty good description. Yeah, no, that, that feels pretty, pretty apt to me.
[1:13:23 - 1:13:28] ▶
I want to talk, cause you're in a, I think very unique vantage point as somebody who
[1:13:28 - 1:13:32] ▶
is at the intersection of kind of credible physics and then kind of very speculative UFO,
[1:13:33 - 1:13:38] ▶
you know, interest. There are a couple of interesting objects of interest of late that
[1:13:38 - 1:13:43] ▶
kind of, you know, hit that intersection. The first I want to talk about is actually this discovery of
[1:13:43 - 1:13:49] ▶
Beatrice Villareal at Stockholm university, who, you know, I had the pleasure of interviewing her
[1:13:49 - 1:13:55] ▶
and she was looking at the Pelomer Observatory, which was the most, you know,
[1:13:55 - 1:14:00] ▶
in use observatory, you know, in the kind of mid-century in the U S it's in San Diego.
[1:14:00 - 1:14:05] ▶
And she found over a hundred thousand in an eight year period, what appeared to be UFOs,
[1:14:05 - 1:14:13] ▶
mirror like objects, little transients, light flashes. And, um, they seem to actually be
[1:14:13 - 1:14:20] ▶
correlated with nuclear sites too. There's like a follow-up study that they're 68% more likely to show
[1:14:20 - 1:14:26] ▶
up a day before or after a nuclear detonation. Um, so this was just fascinating studying and nobody in the
[1:14:26 - 1:14:35] ▶
credentialed conventional physics world has debunked it. It's been peer reviewed.
[1:14:35 - 1:14:39] ▶
And you have people like Sabina Hassenfelder and Brian Keating, you know, people you don't think
[1:14:39 - 1:14:44] ▶
of as like UFO nuts, like going on, you know, YouTube and saying like, this actually seems kind
[1:14:44 - 1:14:49] ▶
of intriguing. So what do you, what do you make of it?
[1:14:49 - 1:14:51] ▶
No, it's, I mean, her, that's the Vasco project. I mean, it's an excellent idea for a project. You've got
[1:14:51 - 1:14:57] ▶
all of these photographic plates from the 1940s that, um, that if you have something in orbit,
[1:14:57 - 1:15:06] ▶
you might pick, you might be able to detect it in a photograph, right? So that's the, that's the premise.
[1:15:06 - 1:15:11] ▶
Um, and she, she published a few early papers, which I found really interesting. The one, you know,
[1:15:11 - 1:15:17] ▶
the ones where you have a several of them, like in a line or something like this. And I thought,
[1:15:17 - 1:15:23] ▶
I think that's fascinating. Um, it's tough. The most recent papers with a hundred thousand,
[1:15:23 - 1:15:29] ▶
that's hard to believe that would, that's a little shocking. Um, that makes me worry that
[1:15:29 - 1:15:35] ▶
you really have to double your efforts to look, to make sure there's not an artifact
[1:15:37 - 1:15:41] ▶
issue that you haven't considered.
[1:15:41 - 1:15:43] ▶
Well, it's a hundred thousand between 1949 and 1957. The reason you'd ended in 1957 is because
[1:15:43 - 1:15:50] ▶
Sputnik goes up. So it's pre satellites, which is, that's remarkable. And it's,
[1:15:50 - 1:15:54] ▶
they're all in geostationary orbit, geo. So it's like the, you know, outer earth's orbit.
[1:15:54 - 1:15:59] ▶
So it's, I think it's, it's pretty remarkable. That does seem really high as well. I think she says
[1:15:59 - 1:16:05] ▶
there could be an error rate of up to 30% or something. So that's a, you know, it's a big margin.
[1:16:05 - 1:16:09] ▶
But what, what's remarkable is like when she put this out, the main detraction, the main
[1:16:10 - 1:16:15] ▶
way people tried to kind of straw man or, or, you know, beat, beat this thing was they said,
[1:16:16 - 1:16:21] ▶
you know, uh, these have to be plate defects. These have to be sort of, you know, the, the,
[1:16:21 - 1:16:27] ▶
the astronomical plates, you know, uh, have all sorts of weird, you know, chemical issues over
[1:16:27 - 1:16:32] ▶
long periods of time. And you end up with these sort of stains and issues. And then, you know,
[1:16:32 - 1:16:37] ▶
those could look like transients or UFOs, but then she followed up on the study and she said,
[1:16:37 - 1:16:42] ▶
is there a, so obviously you have the sun it's hitting the earth and then you have the shadow
[1:16:42 - 1:16:47] ▶
of the earth, right? You have a kind of a dark side of the earth. She said is, um, you know,
[1:16:47 - 1:16:53] ▶
are these objects dropping off on the dark side of the earth when, when they shouldn't be being
[1:16:53 - 1:16:58] ▶
illuminated by the sun? I think that's the idea. That's right. Are they physical objects? Are
[1:16:58 - 1:17:03] ▶
they reflecting off the sun? A and B if their plate defects, plate defects would not play favorites
[1:17:03 - 1:17:10] ▶
between the earth's shadow and you know, the, the sun side of the earth, right?
[1:17:10 - 1:17:13] ▶
You should have the plate defect, right? It should be constant.
[1:17:13 - 1:17:16] ▶
It would be completely proportional and constant. Yeah.
[1:17:16 - 1:17:18] ▶
And so, uh, she found a, uh, you know, a serious drop off. And so that seems like pretty significant.
[1:17:18 - 1:17:24] ▶
It's interesting. Yeah, certainly it's interesting. I think it's, um, it's one of the, the,
[1:17:24 - 1:17:30] ▶
I mean, the hallmark of science is reproducibility, right? So what you need to have is you need to have
[1:17:32 - 1:17:37] ▶
other, other labs look at those plates and actually do the study, try to replicate the study. And I
[1:17:37 - 1:17:44] ▶
think that's what needs to happen. And that's what she's beautiful about her kind of orientation
[1:17:44 - 1:17:48] ▶
towards this whole thing is she's now saying, you can go look at the data for yourself. So the,
[1:17:48 - 1:17:52] ▶
the raw data I think is online now for people to, oh, it's not online. Okay. It will be, it will be.
[1:17:52 - 1:17:58] ▶
We've tried to get it. Okay. You've tried to get it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Then she says she's putting it online.
[1:17:58 - 1:18:02] ▶
She's working on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think that the, the next Holy Grail would be,
[1:18:02 - 1:18:07] ▶
you'd want it from another observatory and you'd want the actual transients to line up one-to-one
[1:18:07 - 1:18:12] ▶
ideally. Right. Right. At least with some correlation. That would be really important.
[1:18:12 - 1:18:15] ▶
Yeah. If you're in multiple observatories, that would be ideal. Yeah. So yeah, totally agree.
[1:18:15 - 1:18:18] ▶
There's work to be done there, but I'm pretty intriguing. I think. Yeah, it is intriguing. It is. Yeah.
[1:18:18 - 1:18:23] ▶
Yeah. Yeah. It was an, it's a nice idea for a project. I mean, it's a, you've got all of these
[1:18:23 - 1:18:29] ▶
photographic records and to go through them. I mean, just to look for transients in the first
[1:18:29 - 1:18:35] ▶
place. I mean, transients would be anything that you don't have a good explanation for. So there's
[1:18:35 - 1:18:40] ▶
potential for lots of discoveries there, not just things orbiting the earth. So.
[1:18:40 - 1:18:44] ▶
Do you think UFOs come from space or do you think they are sort of, you know, going through wormholes,
[1:18:44 - 1:18:51] ▶
you know, or, or time travelers? Absolutely. No idea. They're, they are. I think that many of them that we
[1:18:51 - 1:18:59] ▶
see that are observed by people are actually coming from earth presently, you know, Carl Sagan once
[1:18:59 - 1:19:07] ▶
quipped, I think it's extremely doubtful that somebody is arriving from international, from
[1:19:07 - 1:19:13] ▶
interstellar space every other Tuesday. You know, he made something like that, you know, basically
[1:19:13 - 1:19:17] ▶
saying that I don't think that he didn't say interest dollar travels impossible. It wasn't going to
[1:19:17 - 1:19:22] ▶
happen every other Tuesday is basically what he was saying. It's not going to be common. And I think he's
[1:19:22 - 1:19:27] ▶
right. They're not, they're not coming in from another star system every other Tuesday. They're,
[1:19:27 - 1:19:32] ▶
they're present here. Yeah. And that's why I think there's probably bases underwater is your best bet.
[1:19:32 - 1:19:38] ▶
Yeah. Or maybe somewhere else in the solar system. But we know that they can't be more than,
[1:19:38 - 1:19:42] ▶
in many cases, they can't be more than a light day away because they showed up the next, so when you had
[1:19:42 - 1:19:48] ▶
the Fukushima disaster, they showed up the next day. So if they're coming from another star system,
[1:19:48 - 1:19:54] ▶
it would take years for the, for the, any signal, any information about Fukushima to get out to that
[1:19:54 - 1:19:59] ▶
star system and then years for them to come, for them to come. Unless fast and light communications
[1:19:59 - 1:20:05] ▶
and travel is possible. Unless you can actually pull off something like that. But yes, in general
[1:20:05 - 1:20:08] ▶
relativity, it would need to be. But they're probably coming from Earth in that case. Hmm.
[1:20:08 - 1:20:13] ▶
Interesting. Do you know of any interesting space-based encounters of UFOs, like NASA encounters?
[1:20:14 - 1:20:20] ▶
That's also a good question. So, um, I know a few of them, there's, well, there's several cosmonauts
[1:20:20 - 1:20:30] ▶
have reported seeing things in space and that's important to them. Oh, I can't, I'm blanking on his
[1:20:30 - 1:20:37] ▶
name right now. Of course, it's a long Russian name that I'm not familiar with. It starts with an A,
[1:20:37 - 1:20:42] ▶
but they actually had a craft pull up alongside of them. Whoa. After orbit. And they took pictures,
[1:20:42 - 1:20:48] ▶
um, the cosmonaut drew a picture of the object. Whoa. Because the pictures all got confiscated
[1:20:48 - 1:20:54] ▶
by the Soviet government. Hmm? The not Gagarin? No, it's not Gagarin. Oh,
[1:20:54 - 1:20:59] ▶
check this out. It's, um, Akhenashev. Okay. Akhenashev. And he drew a UFO. He drew a picture
[1:20:59 - 1:21:05] ▶
of what they took photographs of. Whoa. What, what mission was this? Do you know? I don't know. I think
[1:21:05 - 1:21:09] ▶
it was one when they were going to, um, one of the beginning, early space stations. Wow.
[1:21:09 - 1:21:15] ▶
Yeah. Fast. This thing pulled up, it had, it had windows, it had windows and pulled up and followed
[1:21:15 - 1:21:21] ▶
them for part of the orbit and then left. Whoa. Yeah. Which is awesome. Yeah. I talked to Alan
[1:21:21 - 1:21:25] ▶
Bean. I met him and talked to him. He was from Apollo 12. And he said that when he went up to Skylab,
[1:21:25 - 1:21:37] ▶
they were on Skylab, I think it's 1977-ish. Um, they actually photographed a red flashing light.
[1:21:37 - 1:21:44] ▶
Well, what is Skylab? Skylab was one of our early space stations. Okay. And, um, and they actually
[1:21:45 - 1:21:52] ▶
saw a red flashing light that followed them for part of their orbit and then disappeared. Really?
[1:21:52 - 1:21:56] ▶
Yes. And they had photographs of that. What did he say happened to the photographs?
[1:21:56 - 1:22:00] ▶
Oh, they're actually public. Oh, they are. Okay. Wow. We'll surface this. I mean,
[1:22:00 - 1:22:04] ▶
the big problem, you're photographing a light in the sky and it's a handheld camera on a spaceship
[1:22:04 - 1:22:10] ▶
through a window and yeah, it's a bouncy and blurry and out of focus and all that. Yeah, but it's a red
[1:22:10 - 1:22:14] ▶
light that seems to be falling. But it's a red flashing light in space. Nobody, nobody puts lights
[1:22:14 - 1:22:19] ▶
on satellites. First, you don't need them. And second, it's more weight. You know, every, every ounce is
[1:22:19 - 1:22:24] ▶
going to cost you a crazy amount of money. Also satellites back then weren't doing proximity
[1:22:24 - 1:22:28] ▶
operations. No, they weren't. They were just following predictable orbits. And they weren't changing orbits.
[1:22:28 - 1:22:32] ▶
They weren't moving around either. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's a big deal.
[1:22:32 - 1:22:35] ▶
So that whole thing is very strange. Yes.
[1:22:35 - 1:22:37] ▶
Yeah. And so you, and then you have the, um, the Gemini 11 mission where the, and from the transcripts,
[1:22:37 - 1:22:44] ▶
the, um, the astronauts are working on, uh, were, were working and something flew over their,
[1:22:44 - 1:22:54] ▶
Houston asked that just something just fly over you. And they say affirmative, weird, weird, weird. And then
[1:22:55 - 1:23:01] ▶
there's something like six minutes of no transcript. Right. And, um, but when the thing flew over,
[1:23:01 - 1:23:07] ▶
the object flew over them, they, it drained, um, there, it drained one of their batteries that's,
[1:23:07 - 1:23:14] ▶
um, stack char, Charlie stack got drained. So stack C got drained. So it's almost a classic UFO sighting.
[1:23:14 - 1:23:21] ▶
And they see an object in space, it flies over their ship and then drains their batteries.
[1:23:21 - 1:23:25] ▶
Right. And so that's in the transcripts of Gemini 11.
[1:23:25 - 1:23:28] ▶
Wow. And that's public. That audio is public.
[1:23:28 - 1:23:31] ▶
That's public as well. Yeah. And now, so, so the question I've had is why,
[1:23:31 - 1:23:35] ▶
when we had the NASA commission, why was there no section on what astronauts have seen in space?
[1:23:35 - 1:23:41] ▶
I mean, story Musgrave, a shuttle pilot also talked about seeing things like snakes.
[1:23:42 - 1:23:47] ▶
Things writhing around in space.
[1:23:47 - 1:23:49] ▶
Really? Yeah. None of that mentioned in the NASA commission's report.
[1:23:49 - 1:23:54] ▶
And so you've got, and then you have, what is there, the, the mission, the Soviet mission to Phobos,
[1:23:55 - 1:24:00] ▶
where their craft got disabled. The last picture shows an object, like a fin in the,
[1:24:01 - 1:24:08] ▶
like a tail fin of a plane looks like in the picture.
[1:24:08 - 1:24:11] ▶
That's the last picture it took. And then the whole thing was disabled.
[1:24:11 - 1:24:14] ▶
And the whole thing was disabled. And Gemini 11 also looks like the audio,
[1:24:14 - 1:24:18] ▶
like, like there was some sort of power interference or something as well. Right.
[1:24:18 - 1:24:22] ▶
Like electromagnetic interference.
[1:24:22 - 1:24:23] ▶
Yeah. So you've got multiple events in space that weren't even talked,
[1:24:23 - 1:24:28] ▶
weren't even mentioned in the NASA commission report. Why? Shouldn't that be of interest?
[1:24:28 - 1:24:32] ▶
They all sign NDAs, right?
[1:24:32 - 1:24:34] ▶
Oh, I don't know what they do.
[1:24:36 - 1:24:37] ▶
I believe, I believe they do.
[1:24:37 - 1:24:38] ▶
So do you think, I mean, you were, you were at NASA. Do you think NASA's sort of
[1:24:39 - 1:24:43] ▶
systematically covering this stuff up?
[1:24:43 - 1:24:45] ▶
I would have no idea.
[1:24:45 - 1:24:46] ▶
Because the other interesting thing from Beatrice Villareal is she said she was in touch
[1:24:46 - 1:24:50] ▶
with a current NASA person who said that NASA tracks what they call uncorrelated targets all the time.
[1:24:50 - 1:24:56] ▶
So these are, these are, you know, sort of, you know, noise.
[1:24:57 - 1:25:00] ▶
Yeah. Well, they're not necessarily alien spaceships, right? But it's, but.
[1:25:00 - 1:25:04] ▶
These are things that should be reported.
[1:25:04 - 1:25:06] ▶
Figure out what they are.
[1:25:06 - 1:25:07] ▶
If you don't know what they are and you've got a,
[1:25:07 - 1:25:10] ▶
if you've, if you're running a commission on unidentified aerial phenomenon and you've got a bunch
[1:25:10 - 1:25:16] ▶
of unidentified things, you should talk about them.
[1:25:16 - 1:25:19] ▶
So totally. But also apparently the uncorrelated targets are systematically tracked by space force.
[1:25:19 - 1:25:25] ▶
And not by, according to this insider.
[1:25:26 - 1:25:27] ▶
Again, I don't, I don't know if this is true, but that's really interesting.
[1:25:27 - 1:25:31] ▶
All of our government documents on these things, even the recent ones, barely have any information in them.
[1:25:31 - 1:25:38] ▶
Meanwhile, the French in 1999 put out the Commetta report, which was 100 pages or something, right?
[1:25:38 - 1:25:44] ▶
Yeah. That's just crazy.
[1:25:44 - 1:25:45] ▶
It was like 10 pages.
[1:25:45 - 1:25:47] ▶
The French have a UFO research group officially called Gaipan, which unlike Arrow doesn't gaslight the population.
[1:25:47 - 1:25:53] ▶
They, you know, admit that this stuff is real and are open about it.
[1:25:53 - 1:25:56] ▶
Yeah. Commetta reports final analysis from 1999 was that, was that, yeah, these things could be alien spacecraft.
[1:25:57 - 1:26:07] ▶
There might be a base somewhere in our solar system and the U S is probably hiding information.
[1:26:07 - 1:26:12] ▶
And that's what they actually said in the United States is probably covering up information.
[1:26:13 - 1:26:16] ▶
That's, that's, that's, that was their official report.
[1:26:16 - 1:26:18] ▶
That was their official report.
[1:26:18 - 1:26:20] ▶
So, and then, and I believe the head of their, uh, CIA, former head of their CIA, Elaine Juliet,
[1:26:20 - 1:26:27] ▶
uh, was extremely interested in UFOs and publicly to this day is like this big, you know, UFO proponent.
[1:26:27 - 1:26:33] ▶
So they have a long history.
[1:26:33 - 1:26:35] ▶
Um, so Gemini 11, that was Pete Conrad was the astronaut.
[1:26:35 - 1:26:40] ▶
And did they come back and say, we saw a UFO?
[1:26:43 - 1:26:46] ▶
Did they say anything?
[1:26:46 - 1:26:47] ▶
I mean, cause that's the other, look, I, I've looked into all the moon landing stuff and I just
[1:26:48 - 1:26:53] ▶
actually had Joe Rogan on the podcast, which was a big honor.
[1:26:53 - 1:26:56] ▶
Um, uh, he, he kind of, um, uh, was the, the first person to be in our spaceship, uh, set,
[1:26:56 - 1:27:03] ▶
which we just built, which is really cool.
[1:27:03 - 1:27:06] ▶
And, um, I just couldn't, couldn't think of anybody better for that.
[1:27:07 - 1:27:11] ▶
And, um, we, we talked about, uh, a lot of the moon, moon landing weirdness, you know,
[1:27:11 - 1:27:16] ▶
in the presentation of the moon landing.
[1:27:16 - 1:27:18] ▶
And I, I think neither of us are suggesting that definitively, like the U S didn't go to
[1:27:18 - 1:27:22] ▶
I think you can to, you know, the, the, the inverse of that, you can, you can say definitively
[1:27:23 - 1:27:28] ▶
the presentation of whatever happened is weird and it was sanitized and manicured and presented
[1:27:28 - 1:27:35] ▶
And there was definitely some, uh, you know, managing of that, that was, that was going
[1:27:36 - 1:27:43] ▶
on that that's obvious.
[1:27:43 - 1:27:44] ▶
And so I wonder if, you know, maybe, maybe we did actually attempt or go and maybe we
[1:27:44 - 1:27:50] ▶
just saw UFOs along the way, or maybe there's something very ontologically weird about the
[1:27:50 - 1:27:55] ▶
That's hard to come back with as far as a revelation to the public or some, I don't know, but, um,
[1:27:55 - 1:28:02] ▶
I mean, Edgar Mitchell came back talking about having an epiphany of
[1:28:02 - 1:28:06] ▶
how we're all connected in the, you know, you know, thinking about different way of thinking
[1:28:06 - 1:28:10] ▶
about the university of humanity.
[1:28:10 - 1:28:11] ▶
But then after that, he was very, very much, um, involved with UFOs.
[1:28:11 - 1:28:16] ▶
Paul, he grew up in Roswell, grew up in Roswell, Apollo 14 astronaut.
[1:28:16 - 1:28:20] ▶
And he had gotten, and so because he was an Apollo astronaut, he got to hear all sorts
[1:28:20 - 1:28:24] ▶
of things about Roswell from people from at all levels.
[1:28:24 - 1:28:27] ▶
He's very close with Werner Von Braun, who seemed really interested in UFOs as well.
[1:28:27 - 1:28:31] ▶
He's the father of our, of our space program essentially.
[1:28:31 - 1:28:33] ▶
Werner Von Braun's mentor was Herman Oberth, who, who gave a lecture in 1954 on UFOs.
[1:28:33 - 1:28:42] ▶
After so many witnesses have seen the so-called flying saucers, their existence cannot longer
[1:28:42 - 1:28:50] ▶
I believe that these flying objects come from another solar system.
[1:28:51 - 1:28:57] ▶
I have his notes and his lecture notes.
[1:28:57 - 1:29:01] ▶
And in there, he mentions that he has, they, he has seen numerous radar measurements
[1:29:01 - 1:29:07] ▶
of their speeds up to 19 kilometers a second, which is about 40,000 miles an hour.
[1:29:08 - 1:29:14] ▶
He also says that the rocket program was helped and he was, he was basically the father of
[1:29:14 - 1:29:19] ▶
And he said that it was aided by these, these non-human beings.
[1:29:20 - 1:29:23] ▶
But that, so that's, that's going back to 19, so 1954, we knew that these things traveled
[1:29:25 - 1:29:31] ▶
at spacecraft speeds.
[1:29:31 - 1:29:33] ▶
We already knew that in 1954.
[1:29:33 - 1:29:35] ▶
And, and why are we playing catch up just now?
[1:29:36 - 1:29:42] ▶
I mean, why did this, why did this take a half a century to unfold?
[1:29:42 - 1:29:45] ▶
Well, proof that, um, NASA, you know, probably knows something, a thing or two internally about
[1:29:46 - 1:29:53] ▶
And I know this is something you've looked into.
[1:29:54 - 1:29:56] ▶
And I think my buddy, Chris Ramsey might be doing an interesting follow up with you on,
[1:29:56 - 1:29:59] ▶
on all this stuff, but.
[1:29:59 - 1:30:00] ▶
There's, um, there's a, the Simpkinson photo around Gemini 11 that play.
[1:30:01 - 1:30:07] ▶
And there's maybe the best UFO photo you could ever ask for.
[1:30:07 - 1:30:12] ▶
It's like a perfect UFO photo.
[1:30:12 - 1:30:14] ▶
In fact, I have the book, uh, right here.
[1:30:14 - 1:30:16] ▶
I'm gonna, I'm gonna take it.
[1:30:16 - 1:30:17] ▶
So we have, we have this, um, this Simpkinson NASA UFO archive and this photo, which is like,
[1:30:19 - 1:30:26] ▶
maybe the best UFO photo of all time.
[1:30:26 - 1:30:29] ▶
Um, if it's real and it comes from Gemini 11 and you, you figured out that this was the
[1:30:29 - 1:30:35] ▶
Gemini 11 photo, right?
[1:30:35 - 1:30:36] ▶
Um, well, Ed Wilson knew that.
[1:30:37 - 1:30:39] ▶
But it actually says on, it says strange object as seen by the astronauts of Gemini 11.
[1:30:41 - 1:30:48] ▶
I think that's what it says underneath on, on the lithograph.
[1:30:48 - 1:30:51] ▶
So it's a, so what he found was a, that was a lithograph, which is a printing, a printed
[1:30:51 - 1:30:56] ▶
And they printed them, um, kind of like a lithographs, kind of like a, um,
[1:30:58 - 1:31:05] ▶
comic book is printed with all the dots, right?
[1:31:06 - 1:31:09] ▶
Which makes it horrible to analyze.
[1:31:09 - 1:31:11] ▶
If you're trying to find stars in that picture, you're, you were so out of luck.
[1:31:11 - 1:31:15] ▶
I mean, several of us were trying to identify stars and things like this in that picture,
[1:31:15 - 1:31:19] ▶
and you just can't do it.
[1:31:19 - 1:31:20] ▶
Um, I actually, I, I, so what I, my best assessment of what that image shows is that it is probably
[1:31:22 - 1:31:30] ▶
a mock-up of what the astronauts claim to have seen.
[1:31:30 - 1:31:34] ▶
Why is that your assessment?
[1:31:37 - 1:31:39] ▶
Ed actually found the original photograph in the University of Arizona archives
[1:31:42 - 1:31:47] ▶
that shows Earth with that cloud pattern in the background.
[1:31:47 - 1:31:51] ▶
And there's no UFO there.
[1:31:51 - 1:31:53] ▶
Now, of course, it's easy to claim, well, NASA erased the UFO from that picture.
[1:31:53 - 1:31:58] ▶
Um, and it doesn't, now, of course, doing an image analysis like that on, on a scanned
[1:31:58 - 1:32:08] ▶
and negative, right?
[1:32:08 - 1:32:12] ▶
Where you don't know what kind of process, and it's JPEG, which is, which is, um,
[1:32:12 - 1:32:16] ▶
a lossy encoding and all this, these types of image analysis problems.
[1:32:17 - 1:32:21] ▶
So it's not great image, it's not great for doing an image analysis on, but I found no evidence
[1:32:21 - 1:32:26] ▶
that anything was erased from that picture.
[1:32:26 - 1:32:28] ▶
And, um, and, and that picture actually is showing the end of the Tether experiment.
[1:32:29 - 1:32:36] ▶
So, so NASA, the Gemini project, Gemini meaning twins, was all about docking.
[1:32:36 - 1:32:42] ▶
Can we actually dock with another spacecraft in space?
[1:32:43 - 1:32:46] ▶
And so Gemini 11 was the last one of the series, you know, a unique one in that their goal was to
[1:32:46 - 1:32:52] ▶
go up, literally launch, and dock within one orbit. So, what they were doing previously,
[1:32:52 - 1:32:59] ▶
they'd go and they'd get up into orbit, and then they'd maneuver to dock. But the trick was,
[1:32:59 - 1:33:03] ▶
can we just go up and dock?
[1:33:03 - 1:33:05] ▶
And that's what they tried to do with the Gemini 11, and they were successful.
[1:33:05 - 1:33:08] ▶
And after they docked, they, um, then were tethered to the other craft,
[1:33:09 - 1:33:14] ▶
and they did a tether experiment where they actually got the two crafts spinning like this,
[1:33:15 - 1:33:19] ▶
I'm going to knock things over, got the two crafts spinning on a tether, and then, um,
[1:33:19 - 1:33:24] ▶
and did experiments to see how stable that is and what goes wrong. And, um, so they had just
[1:33:24 - 1:33:29] ▶
finished that experiment, and they had just released the other craft, the unmanned craft.
[1:33:29 - 1:33:35] ▶
And that's in the picture that the background of that lithograph is from.
[1:33:35 - 1:33:41] ▶
And there's no indication that the astronauts saw any UFO at that time in the transcripts.
[1:33:41 - 1:33:49] ▶
They were busy with the, you know, yeah, they're busy with the tether experiment.
[1:33:49 - 1:33:52] ▶
So when was the, because you just said earlier that-
[1:33:52 - 1:33:55] ▶
But then the UFO sighting, the weird thing that happened, happened an hour later.
[1:33:55 - 1:33:59] ▶
Which would put it in another orbit, right?
[1:33:59 - 1:34:02] ▶
Two-thirds of an orbit.
[1:34:02 - 1:34:03] ▶
So you did some forensic investigating and realized that the timing was off.
[1:34:03 - 1:34:07] ▶
For when they actually did see the UFO.
[1:34:07 - 1:34:10] ▶
So the big problems with that being a real picture are, are first the, um,
[1:34:10 - 1:34:15] ▶
first we don't have a picture of the UFO.
[1:34:15 - 1:34:18] ▶
We don't have an actual photograph of the UFO.
[1:34:18 - 1:34:20] ▶
We don't just have the lithograph.
[1:34:21 - 1:34:22] ▶
Um, there doesn't seem to be any evidence of tam-
[1:34:23 - 1:34:26] ▶
those, that photograph being tampered with.
[1:34:27 - 1:34:29] ▶
Um, there was no indication that they saw a UFO at that time.
[1:34:29 - 1:34:33] ▶
And the UFO they did see happened an hour later.
[1:34:34 - 1:34:37] ▶
So, so, so what's your best explanation as to how that photo surfaced at all with the UFO?
[1:34:37 - 1:34:43] ▶
What I suspect happened is, is it's, I think that what that photo is, is exactly what it says under
[1:34:43 - 1:34:50] ▶
Strange object as seen by Gemini 11 astronauts.
[1:34:52 - 1:34:56] ▶
I think it's a mock-up to show what the astronauts saw.
[1:34:57 - 1:35:01] ▶
But didn't photograph.
[1:35:02 - 1:35:03] ▶
Was that officially published in some NASA thing?
[1:35:03 - 1:35:06] ▶
No, it wasn't officially published anywhere, which was, it made it interesting.
[1:35:06 - 1:35:09] ▶
It was found in Scott Simpkinson was a NASA engineer.
[1:35:09 - 1:35:13] ▶
Um, he was, he was actually the first engineer hired by NASA.
[1:35:13 - 1:35:18] ▶
And his nickname was Scotty.
[1:35:20 - 1:35:21] ▶
Everybody called him Scotty.
[1:35:22 - 1:35:23] ▶
And I can't, and I can't help but think, is there any connection between Scott Simpkinson,
[1:35:23 - 1:35:28] ▶
Scotty, and Scotty in the Enterprise?
[1:35:28 - 1:35:30] ▶
But he was very well known.
[1:35:31 - 1:35:32] ▶
So there might be a connection there.
[1:35:35 - 1:35:36] ▶
Well, it sounds like he's kind of as insidery as it gets.
[1:35:37 - 1:35:41] ▶
And the fact that he, you know, you find in his, in his records-
[1:35:42 - 1:35:45] ▶
Yeah, he designed some of the spacecraft.
[1:35:45 - 1:35:46] ▶
He designed some of the spacecraft.
[1:35:46 - 1:35:47] ▶
So if there's some sort of, even if it's an artist rendition where they're-
[1:35:47 - 1:35:50] ▶
So he had, he had, and he had a collection of his NASA files.
[1:35:50 - 1:35:54] ▶
He and his secretary, Emily Erdl, had a collection of, of their NASA files.
[1:35:54 - 1:35:59] ▶
And, and then when he died and she died, they were made public and they were put to auction
[1:35:59 - 1:36:06] ▶
and Ed Wilson bought them.
[1:36:06 - 1:36:07] ▶
That's how he got them.
[1:36:08 - 1:36:08] ▶
And he discovered the lithograph amongst them.
[1:36:08 - 1:36:11] ▶
Well, if there's a painting of a UFO in that photo and it's found in his records, that implies
[1:36:11 - 1:36:20] ▶
that there's almost institutional NASA knowledge of the fact that the Gemini 11 astronauts did see a UFO.
[1:36:20 - 1:36:25] ▶
I saw something, I think, well, and they, that's what's said in the transcript.
[1:36:25 - 1:36:30] ▶
Even if it's painted on, it's like this inside joke or way to commemorate this very real event.
[1:36:30 - 1:36:36] ▶
Way to record what happened as best they can, yeah.
[1:36:37 - 1:36:40] ▶
That's so interesting.
[1:36:41 - 1:36:42] ▶
And why none of this is mentioned in the NASA Commission's report, I have no idea.
[1:36:42 - 1:36:47] ▶
Did they not, maybe they didn't know.
[1:36:47 - 1:36:48] ▶
I mean, it's possible they didn't know.
[1:36:48 - 1:36:50] ▶
Speaking of NASA obstruction, 3i Atlas, you know, we have this Manhattan-sized object that is now
[1:36:53 - 1:36:59] ▶
come around, back around the sun, and it is headed towards Jupiter.
[1:37:01 - 1:37:04] ▶
It's going to pass the Earth December 19th.
[1:37:04 - 1:37:07] ▶
So this might be out by the time, you know, it's already sort of passed.
[1:37:07 - 1:37:11] ▶
So, what do you think's going on with this object?
[1:37:12 - 1:37:15] ▶
You have, like, most of the astronomical community basically, like, ignoring it or saying it doesn't matter or whatever.
[1:37:15 - 1:37:23] ▶
And then you have Avi Loeb going crazy, going on literally every single podcast that exists, saying, you know, 40% chance that this is an alien craft.
[1:37:23 - 1:37:34] ▶
And, you know, it could be a harbinger of, you know, either the Messiah or, you know, it could be an invader or something.
[1:37:34 - 1:37:40] ▶
So, what's going on?
[1:37:40 - 1:37:42] ▶
Yeah, that's, I mean...
[1:37:42 - 1:37:43] ▶
And then NASA did this stupid gaslighting press conference where I was honestly a little skeptical of some of Avi's statements.
[1:37:43 - 1:37:51] ▶
I felt like he was, like, extrapolating and, you know, jumping to conclusions.
[1:37:51 - 1:37:55] ▶
But I ended up, I wanted to side with Avi after watching this gaslighting NASA thing.
[1:37:55 - 1:38:00] ▶
Well, first, NASA press conferences are the absolute worst.
[1:38:00 - 1:38:02] ▶
You want to geek out a little bit, Tom?
[1:38:02 - 1:38:04] ▶
You were geeking out so expertly, Nikki, to begin with.
[1:38:04 - 1:38:08] ▶
I was, I was embracing.
[1:38:08 - 1:38:08] ▶
So, that was fabulous.
[1:38:08 - 1:38:10] ▶
I mean, every, even when I was at NASA, you wait for this press conference.
[1:38:10 - 1:38:14] ▶
Oh, there's going to be some exciting news about something.
[1:38:14 - 1:38:16] ▶
And it's not very exciting.
[1:38:16 - 1:38:18] ▶
And you're always, and part of the problem is that your expectation for excitement from NASA is way too high.
[1:38:18 - 1:38:28] ▶
And unreasonably high.
[1:38:29 - 1:38:31] ▶
So, that's part of the problem.
[1:38:31 - 1:38:32] ▶
So, I can't, not all the blame should go to NASA for that.
[1:38:32 - 1:38:35] ▶
But the press conferences are always quite, I mean, part of it also is science is kind of boring.
[1:38:35 - 1:38:42] ▶
And if you're giving a, so if you're giving a press conference about science, that might be kind, that's often kind of boring.
[1:38:42 - 1:38:47] ▶
But you should expect a photo that's better resolution than what amateur astronomers are taking of 3i Atlas.
[1:38:47 - 1:38:53] ▶
It's like this fuzzy.
[1:38:53 - 1:38:54] ▶
Yeah, but it's hard if you've got, you've got a, you've got a spacecraft in orbit around Mars designed to image the surface of Mars and you're trying to use it to image something much further away.
[1:38:54 - 1:39:03] ▶
But then crowdsource, if you're the official government body and you get billions in funding every year, then find the amateur astronomer that can do it and do it and work with them.
[1:39:05 - 1:39:15] ▶
Contra, you have the money.
[1:39:15 - 1:39:16] ▶
I mean, I'm not surprised that we can't get a good image of it.
[1:39:18 - 1:39:21] ▶
I mean, 3i Atlas is weird.
[1:39:24 - 1:39:27] ▶
And I don't know, I mean, why the astronomical society won't, or community won't recognize that is kind of strange.
[1:39:27 - 1:39:40] ▶
I mean, maybe it is, are they kind of quieted by Avi being so loud about it being possibly an alien craft that could be part of it.
[1:39:40 - 1:39:47] ▶
They don't want to get into this mess.
[1:39:47 - 1:39:49] ▶
But, but it's a weird thing.
[1:39:50 - 1:39:51] ▶
I mean, yeah, great, easy to say comet.
[1:39:51 - 1:39:55] ▶
But when it came back around from around the sun, if I'm remembering right, I mean, these are numbers that I not horribly invested in remembering, but it was only like 4% water vapor as it came back around.
[1:39:55 - 1:40:08] ▶
That's hardly any, the things, comets are dirty snowballs.
[1:40:08 - 1:40:12] ▶
They're made of water.
[1:40:12 - 1:40:12] ▶
Well, now, now what is this thing?
[1:40:15 - 1:40:16] ▶
It's got iron, or it's got nickel, but no iron.
[1:40:16 - 1:40:22] ▶
Iron and nickel come together.
[1:40:22 - 1:40:24] ▶
I mean, they're next to each other on the periodic table.
[1:40:24 - 1:40:27] ▶
To separate iron and nickel, you're going to need some weird, some difficult processes to separate these two.
[1:40:27 - 1:40:32] ▶
And meteorites, metal meteorites are always iron, nickel, meteorites.
[1:40:33 - 1:40:37] ▶
Iron and nickel come together.
[1:40:37 - 1:40:38] ▶
So now you've got something that's nickel and not iron.
[1:40:39 - 1:40:41] ▶
This is a weird thing.
[1:40:41 - 1:40:42] ▶
And it suggests some weird processes that went into its formation.
[1:40:42 - 1:40:48] ▶
It has an anti-tail, not just a tail.
[1:40:50 - 1:40:52] ▶
It's got a tail and an anti-tail.
[1:40:52 - 1:40:53] ▶
It's, yeah, there's a lot to worry about here.
[1:40:54 - 1:40:56] ▶
And I suspect, I mean, from a practical standpoint, clearly this is something that we don't know much about.
[1:40:57 - 1:41:08] ▶
And so just claiming it's a comet and throwing up your hands and walking away is stupid.
[1:41:08 - 1:41:12] ▶
Just flat out stupid and ignorant.
[1:41:13 - 1:41:15] ▶
To say it's an alien spacecraft, well, I mean, yeah, you don't have a lot of evidence for that either.
[1:41:18 - 1:41:24] ▶
So that's tough too.
[1:41:24 - 1:41:25] ▶
But it is something we ought to study.
[1:41:26 - 1:41:28] ▶
And I remember there were several people who were saying, well, it's not worth studying.
[1:41:28 - 1:41:32] ▶
I'm thinking, no, this is an interstellar object that tells us what the conditions are like around another star system.
[1:41:33 - 1:41:39] ▶
Yeah, this is something you should study.
[1:41:39 - 1:41:41] ▶
If you're going to spend money to study another one of our asteroids over something from another star system, there's nothing reasonable about that.
[1:41:41 - 1:41:49] ▶
That's the problem with this whole conversation around UFOs is you have, on the one hand, most conventional astronomers not even looking at the data set often.
[1:41:49 - 1:41:57] ▶
Like, I see these guys.
[1:41:58 - 1:41:59] ▶
I think this Piers Morgan just had on this guy.
[1:41:59 - 1:42:01] ▶
I think David Kipping or something.
[1:42:01 - 1:42:02] ▶
He seems like a really good.
[1:42:02 - 1:42:03] ▶
Seems like a really, actually, I loved his episode on Rogan.
[1:42:04 - 1:42:07] ▶
He's an exoplanet guy.
[1:42:08 - 1:42:08] ▶
Yeah, exoplanet guy, really smart on that dimension.
[1:42:08 - 1:42:11] ▶
But, like, this data set that we're talking about with UFOs showing up around nuclear weapons, just, like, totally ignorant of it.
[1:42:12 - 1:42:18] ▶
And, like, he's talking about UFOs, but it's, like, as if they have to be things that are traveling from space.
[1:42:18 - 1:42:25] ▶
And I don't even think he's probably familiar with a lot of the NASA cases, you know, because these seem like anecdotal, small sample size, you know, conspiratorial things.
[1:42:25 - 1:42:33] ▶
I would argue that the nuclear thing is a ubiquitous global pattern.
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That you have to contend with as a scientist.
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So you end up with these people who, like, again, don't want to, like, knock him, like, super smart, conventional guy, but, like, is mired in kind of current astronomical data around UFOs and just won't really look at it.
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And it's all relying on, you know, it's all like, well, if the government has something, they should release it or something, but can't look at the open source stuff.
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And then on the other side, it's people who are sure that it's extraterrestrial.
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They're starseeds, probably, you know.
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And we have all the, it's like, you're jumping super to conclusions.
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You're not just following the evidence.
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So it's those two, there's no, like, middle path of, like, this is the evidence.
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It's like dealing with a scientific, it's like a scientific community with bipolar disorder.
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It's like, it's crazy.
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Yeah, it's really difficult.
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The, I mean, the best, the quote that comes to mind is from Stanton Freeman, who said, if you're a scientist and a professional, you need to do your homework before you open your mouth.
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If you haven't done your homework, if you haven't researched it, then you have nothing to say.
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You have nothing to share.
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And you can't go with the excuse that I hear time and time again.
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Well, I don't, that's mostly nonsense, and I don't have time to read nonsense.
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Well, then why are you finding the time to talk about, to argue against nonsense?
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You can find the time to argue against nonsense without looking into the nonsense, but you can't find the time to research it.
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And then, my first response to that, first, it's not nonsense.
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This is something that, this is a phenomenon that people have seen for centuries, centuries.
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I mean, you had Richard Dolan on, and he just put out a book on UFOs and water, underwater UFOs.
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And his case is going back to the 1800s.
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These are the same things.
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They're coming, balls of light coming out of the water, hovering next to the ship, following the ship, and then taking off into the clouds.
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And for, since the 1800s.
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And this, nobody in the 1800s is making this up to sound like what somebody reported last week.
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And you have, you have third world places now, like in third world countries where it's like, these people like Virginia, James Fox just got back, you know, from Brazil.
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He keeps going back.
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And like, this whole town, uncorrelated, disparate sources, they all report this cigar-shaped, tic-tac-like object crashing.
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And three beings coming out, you know, one of which was captured and taken to a hospital.
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And everybody working at the hospital says that they saw the being.
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And one neuroscientist who's still alive to this day goes on record, says he's staring the being in the face for four minutes.
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And this guy's alive.
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And you have this whole town.
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There's a saucer in the town dedicated to UFOs.
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None of these people are making a penny.
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Some of them were offered briefcases of cash to shut up about this thing.
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So, like, explain to me why they would lie.
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Like, it's ridiculous.
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It's actually absurd.
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I wish I could see a UFO so somebody could offer me shit to shut up.
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Maybe that's what's happening with some of the scientists.
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Because I want, like, somebody like a Neil deGrasse Tyson, you know, like, he goes on these podcast tours.
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And he's just, he'll just, it's the same thing over and over again, which is, like, no high-resolution imagery.
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And, you know, it's like, you know, why don't we have, you know, why aren't we drowning in imagery because we have all cell phones or whatever?
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Are there any high-resolution pictures of quasars?
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I mean, we don't have high-resolution pictures of exoplanets either, yet David Kipping and I study them.
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I mean, why is it a scientist, when they come to this topic, they throw their brains out the window and then open their mouths.
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Yeah, I think there's some sort of, well, I think unorthodox and independent thinking don't scale with IQ.
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And so there are a lot of people that can be shepherded into bad frameworks and not even looking at certain stigmatized topics because ideas are fashion statements and those are bad fashion or whatever.
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Even though they can, like, do well on an SAT or something.
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And so I think that's a really, you know, not well understood thing.
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And so you think of this priestly citadel as, like, infallible when it comes to thinking about these things.
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But in fact, they can be shepherded into, you know, in some ways they can be shepherded even more easily because they think they're so smart.
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They think they can't be tricked or something.
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And it's just, I don't know, I think it's sad.
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Because there are all these first principles argument.
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So you can go at, you know, Neil deGrasse Tyson with around, you know, red shifts and blue shifts and, you know, gravitational perturbations that will, like, you know, cause issues with general optical photography.
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You know, and, you know, it's like he wouldn't have anything to say after that.
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He would just say, well, it can't be.
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Like, that ends the conversation with a person like that, you know.
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So it's, like, extremely frustrating.
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I'm sure you deal with it because you have to straddle academia and this sort of more, you know, crazy world of BFOs.
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I've been in numerous discussions where the academic person I've been talking to just throws their brain out the window and stops thinking.
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You know, if I talk about something else, another scientific topic, they're fine.
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But this, they just seem to stop thinking.
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It's very, it's very odd.
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You're in upstate New York.
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Do you think you're in the general vicinity of Stony Brook University?
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Do you think they have anything to do with UFOs?
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I don't know of anything going on at Stony Brook.
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Because, yeah, they have, I don't know, a bunch of interesting, they have, like, differential geometry stuff going on.
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And, you know, they have Jim Simons.
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It's, like, a big guy there.
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Yeah, no, Stony Brook has a great physics department, but I don't think they do anything with UFOs.
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Because David Spurgle, who's Jim Simons, you know, foundation guy.
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So Jim Simons, like, runs, he just passed away.
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And he ran the best performing hedge fund in the U.S. over, you know, a 30-year period.
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You know, Renaissance Technologies, the Medallion Fund.
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And before that, he was an NSA codebreaker and also, like, a brilliant physicist who's contributed a lot to fundamental physics.
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And, like, Yang Mills and, you know, interesting stuff.
[1:49:09 - 1:49:12] ▶
So my former colleague, Eric Weinstein, has suspected that maybe he has something to do with the UFO question or something.
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And that maybe the Renaissance technology is sort of printing money and then they're putting it towards, you know, the UFO question.
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And, honestly, I thought all of that was kind of conspiratorial and ridiculous.
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Until 2022 happened, there's a NASA UAP panel.
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And then David Spurgle, who's, you know, Jim Simons' top science advisor, runs the Science Foundation.
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Yeah, he was the main author on the report.
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On the NASA UAP review panel.
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So I'm like, what's going on?
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Is there some sort of connection there?
[1:49:51 - 1:49:52] ▶
That's a good question.
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Because we were just talking about all the weird NASA data and that seems to be, you know, it seems like it might be suppressed or something.
[1:49:54 - 1:50:00] ▶
Well, this has been a pleasure, Kevin.
[1:50:02 - 1:50:04] ▶
I really love talking to you.
[1:50:05 - 1:50:06] ▶
And, yeah, I wish you the best of luck with all of your interesting work at University of Albany.
[1:50:06 - 1:50:11] ▶
And is there anything you'd like to plug or anything the audience can help kind of promote or support that helps you out?
[1:50:12 - 1:50:19] ▶
Well, our work at UAlbany would be great to support.
[1:50:19 - 1:50:21] ▶
We just got a generous donation from Tony Gorman, who's a local businessman.
[1:50:21 - 1:50:26] ▶
And that has really given us a big boost.
[1:50:27 - 1:50:32] ▶
And we can always use a little more boost.
[1:50:32 - 1:50:35] ▶
So if anybody wants to donate tax-free to UAlbany for our work on UAPs, that'd be awesome.
[1:50:35 - 1:50:46] ▶
And, yeah, one of the few academic institutions that is actually systematically looking into this question.
[1:50:47 - 1:50:53] ▶
So we're basically, Matthew Shadagas and I, and, you know, we were original members with UAPX.
[1:50:53 - 1:51:01] ▶
And now UAPX has been disbanded and moved to UAlbany.
[1:51:01 - 1:51:06] ▶
And it's now UAlbany Project X.
[1:51:06 - 1:51:08] ▶
And Matthew Shadagas and I and Professor Cecilia Levy has joined us as well.
[1:51:09 - 1:51:15] ▶
And we're in the grant, the grant, the gift we got has created an endowment, which will fund us in perpetuity to some degree.
[1:51:16 - 1:51:25] ▶
So we have we are here to stay.
[1:51:25 - 1:51:26] ▶
Well, excited to see, you know, as you make breakthroughs on a go forward basis.
[1:51:29 - 1:51:33] ▶
And we'd love to have you back and really appreciate you coming out here.
[1:51:33 - 1:51:36] ▶
Thank you so much for having me.
[1:51:36 - 1:51:38] ▶
Alchemist, did you enjoy that?
[1:51:43 - 1:51:45] ▶
If you want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy magazine we just launched on Substack.
[1:51:45 - 1:51:51] ▶
That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into every video.
[1:51:51 - 1:51:57] ▶
With weekly articles exploring all of the strange, forgotten, and conspiratorial corners of space, history, and high weirdness.
[1:51:57 - 1:52:05] ▶
So join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack.
[1:52:05 - 1:52:09] ▶
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[1:52:09 - 1:52:12] ▶