Transcript: Jim Semivan - To The Stars*, UFO Legacy Programs, and Experiencers

Everybody, welcome back to engaging the phenomenon, whether you're listening on the podcast or you're watching here on YouTube.

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And today we have a very special guest. I'm very honored to have him take his time to join us and that's Jim Semivand welcome Jim.

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Hey, thank you next to be here James.

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Yeah, again, I really appreciate your time.

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But for people listening, they'll probably be familiar with you from your involvement with two the stars, but just just for people listening.

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Can you explain kind of your background, your, your see our former CIA officer and then you joined up with two the stars. So can you give people a little background about yourself at least let's start with your work with CIA.

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Yeah, I was a I joined CIA in 1982. I was I went in and I worked for the director of science and technology for a couple years to three years.

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And then I switched over I was asked to switch over to the director of operations.

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Went through all the training became an ops officer worked overseas also in the United States, various places in the US, a lot of TV wise overseas.

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I rose through the ranks became a senior manager at CIA and then retired in 2007 took a little time off and then went back and work with them part time for the next 12 years.

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And it was during that time that I met some people from the Pentagon, who were running the, it was a lose group that was running the ATI program and through John Alexander actually ran into John Alexander.

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And at a conference and Alexander heard my story and my wife's story and he came to visit us and then he took the data back to to a lab and this is some stuff that came on my wife's face.

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Anyway, long story that started the connection, Jacques the lay came out to see me. He was the first one and then some other people came out to see me and then I got briefed briefed on two or three times and then I met Lou, who I knew of, but I didn't I didn't know his last name. I knew it was as Louie and I didn't know anything else, but anyway, I went down and went into his, his conference room in the inner corridors of the Pentagon.

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And I will tell you anybody who says that Lou didn't work on this program, they're full of shit. I was there, I met everybody, I met all the people that work for him and with him.

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And on numerous occasions and so he's the real deal and and then that started that and then I went out to San Diego to talk to Tom DeLong, who I did not know, but he had written with the people that I was going to talk to Tom DeLong, who I did not know.

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But he had written with AJ Hartley, a book called Seagrard Machines and that book had some very interesting data in it that that we didn't know what whether or not there was a leak of classified information that Thomas getting from his quote unquote advisors, we knew he did have advisors and they were absolutely real.

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So I went out and some other people went out with me, but I met Tom one on one, met him at a hotel, we had a lovely dinner together and within the first hour, you know, realize right then and there that no, there was no leak of anything and and Tom just put two and two together, his advisors were very sharp about what they told him and what they couldn't tell him, but he he put a lot of the story together and and he, he absolutely didn't know what he was doing.

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He absolutely impressed the hell out of me, I was you know what the hell they expect out of a rock star right but he was an extremely smart guy very savvy.

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And then the next day we met for lunch again with me, Tom howl and there were two other people there who I will not name because I don't think they want to be named.

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But everybody knows who they are, I mean if I said their names, you know them very senior people in the community and they.

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Tom said why don't you join a company i'm starting and then long story short, I didn't nobody wanted to but that Tom said just you know lay out the company the way you think it should look if wanted to do this and.

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So I wrote down on a cocktail napkin whether it should look like Tom immediately agreed so how and I joined right away with Tom and then that's how basically TTS started and and and then within a week or two I mean you know we get we get.

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Steve justice from the skunk works lucky morn skunk words came on board and and then Lou member talking to Lou you know and when at the Pentagon and of course Tom didn't know who Lou was and I couldn't tell him who Lou was but Lou decided he was going to you know resign and.

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And finally you know I put Lou together with Tom and.

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Then Lou came on board and and then Chris melon came on board and then you know we had this big meeting out in Seattle to announce the company and that's what it all started so.

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And that's where now and I still I believe I still have some of my clarity like do a little bit of consulting on the side I still talk to some task force people and what I have to call me asking a question something that.

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By large I don't I don't I'm not heavily involved in in this anymore still have my tentacles in but not heavily involved yeah so in the secret machines books what what was it that stood out or was particularly interesting.

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I don't want to discuss that sure sure understood understood they are interesting books for sure.

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But speaking about Tom you know he tells the story that he met this guy named he calls the general at a airport and they had a discussion and the guy said something along the lines of you know is the height of the cold war and they had found a life one.

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What do you think when you hear something like that.

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I'm always initially skeptical but I know the general he he was talking about who's a straight up guy and Tom's a straight up guy I there was Tom you know isn't a dissimilar and you know he basically will be he tells you exactly what he hears he's also very careful about you know it's what I really really liked about these very very careful about who he talks to and.

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He doesn't talk out of school all that much and so I respect him for that but if the general told him that and you know I'm not one to I wasn't there I don't know you know what context he said that.

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There was certainly a possibility you know that they discovered a life form after World War II.

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Again this goes back to legacy programs the Air Force CIA I'm sure had what they did it and I'm sure it's still going on today.

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Yeah Air Force comes up a lot when when we're when we're here about these legacy programs and I guess the CIA as well.

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I did want to get into the legacy programs with you actually because you know Lou has mentioned the legacy programs and and that they were kind of like the deep programs and even older programs are where unacknowledged regarding UFOs you know what what's so.

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Like why why are the legacy programs so so tough to to deal with navigate find out about.

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Well you know I think it's it's the first issue is I think everybody should understand that you know in here how the government works in 1947 right after Roswell and we had and then you know right after was well happened and then we had this and he's UFO flaps that were going on.

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And there were a lot of them and you know in the late late 40s early 50s again in the 60s so what happens is you know everybody looks to the Air Force at that time you know and you don't say okay what are these things so.

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The Air Force came out right away and said we don't know I mean we don't know what these are but they're definitely real no question about it we pick them up on radar just like we do today we pick them up on radar there are a lot of visual sightings.

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They made a very plan I can't remember what's a twining them or you remember the twining memory I mean came right out and said it he says look we've got to do something about this we have to start some kind of a program so.

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They did and and and that program was never going to be public and then when CIA got into the picture in 47 and 48.

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They also had their own you know deal there was sign grudge Robertson panel you can go down the list and always looking into this and what they've always said was.

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UFOs never pose a national security threat in other words there's no existential threat to the United States which they were mostly concerned about because of Pearl Harbor and World War two so you have to go back to that mindset the second thing was they were absolutely right our telecommunication system throughout the United States was.

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It's not like it is today so they were very concerned that they would be overwhelmed Soviets were very very good at this information and throwing these things out and they were they and they thought maybe this was a play by the Soviets to overwhelm our systems so there these legitimate reasons I think where they they looked at this and said.

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Typically later on in the early 50s they said look we can't we can have this out in the public because you know I don't agree with this by the way i'm just telling you what they were thinking and you know and.

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See a Gerald Haines wrote a I thought a pretty good article on this and unclassified version of CIA's involvement in all this but I think he was right on the money with it but what I think when goes on set is there is no way that the US government.

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Like like whether it's the Air Force CIA NSA and our row is going to ignore unidentified aerial phenomenon ever that always have to look at this because it is an unknown threat and you have to look at it as a threat simply because you don't know what it is if you knew what it was it you see the threat or it isn't a threat you would know so even though they were saying it doesn't seem the pose a threat to the United States we still have to do that.

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I think that was the beginning of the legacy programs and I think also they knew at the time they wanted to divorce themselves CIA and Air Force at that time they wanted to divorce themselves from any publicity surrounding this they didn't want the public to know that they were involved in this.

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Because all that did was create more you know more chatter right about CIA and Air Force being involved in the CIA they just wanted to get off the topic but they still I think well continue to investigate it on the wrong I think that's when the black program started I think to continue I think to continue this day.

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Now as opposed to what they know and what they have you know I really don't feel comfortable commenting on that because I don't know for sure I will tell you though my the educated guess I have is they have some information but I will I will bet a year's pension paycheck that they are completely in the dark about what it is.

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I think this whole phenomenon is well beyond art can I just don't think that they know anything more they may have a lot more information you know but they're not going to right.

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Anyway that's so and when we're talking about these legacy programs I mean again educated guess how many how many programs do you think we're talking all together between Air Force and CIA well it's let's let's expand this I mean I don't think it's just Air Force and CIA I think NASA has this.

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I think norad probably has a row and I think the problem with this is you know CIA is an interesting organization CIA is the central intelligence organization so they're basically in charge their charter says they have to go out and they have to interact with other government agencies to get all source information to put a picture together.

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So and John Ramirez had had a wonderful slide show and he I think he showed it on one of these blogs a year ago or so but it's a wonderful slide show where he sort of shows how how you know how this happens that it's like the rents and somebody sees something and it looks legitimate they see some craft in this guy so what happens well usually what happens is if whoever sees it whatever government agency sees it they take it they make sure they're not going to see it.

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They make sure they check all their systems all their radar is okay everything's cool this seems to be real so then they go out and they'll and this particular case nowadays we'll go to the D. N. I. And I'll say look we have this data that points to these objects.

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So the DNI then takes over and he pulls the task force together.

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And I've seen this happen hundreds of times and in all different areas, you know,

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you pull a task force together from different organizations and then you analyze it.

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And then once you've analyzed it, you've come to the conclusion it's real or it's not real.

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And then what if it is real, then you brief, go back to the DNI and you say, you've got a problem.

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And you're going to have to brief seniors.

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So that means, you know, the department of defense, usually the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff,

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you know, the head of DOD, you're going to have to brief, you know, the CIA, the head of CIA is going to be brief,

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head of an arose, going to be brief, state departments going to be brief.

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They're all going to get briefed on this.

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Chief NSA, they're all going to get briefed on this program and then they're going to have to determine

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what actions they're going to take.

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And and that's how all intelligence matters really, particularly big ones, you know, get resolved.

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So if the Russians come up, for instance, with a new technology and we,

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one small organization in the intelligence community, discovers the information,

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that information goes back, it goes through all these channels, all the analysts get together,

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you do an all analyst report and intelligence assessment.

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And then determine whether it's real or not.

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And then once it's real, then you present it to the president, National Security Council,

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who are the ultimate, you know, consumers and say, okay, this is your call.

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Here are the options you can take.

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And how have the legacy programs been so well protected?

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They, again, I don't want to get into much detail, but I'll tell you that after, you know,

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I mean, Eisenhower talked about the military and industrial complex.

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He wasn't a happy guy and the reason he wasn't a happy guy was because pre-World War II,

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we didn't have any kind of network together.

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I mean, we were really taking it back.

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Our army was woefully ill equipped.

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Our Air Force was, God, it was just not much better than World War I aircraft.

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You know, and so it was, they realized, you know, they're going to have to get together to present,

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prevent another like Pearl Harbor.

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They really were going to have to get together and figure out a way

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to strengthen our armed forces and become more modernized.

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The only way to do that was to bring in private industry and defense contracts.

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And the only way to keep defense contractors is by promising enough money

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that, you know, and for a longer period of time, so like five or 10 years and say,

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look, you know, we want you to do R&D.

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We don't want just, you know, propeller aircraft.

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We would like you to do it because we knew about sort of jets, you know, maybe in the beginning of

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World War II, we want you to pursue that too.

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So that really was the beginning of the industrial, military industrial complex.

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Now, then after the war, I mean, when the threat became very, very large and we started

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bringing over paperclip scientists, I think we brought over like 1,600.

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It became very apparent that the Germans were working on some incredibly advanced

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designs, particularly aircraft designs and some other stuff.

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And then the Russians also were, so what do you do?

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I mean, you know, you go right to defense contractors and say,

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because there wasn't any place else to do it.

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We didn't have the, you know, we had Army R&D and Air Force R&D,

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woefully too small.

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And you also needed to get rid of a lot of the bureaucracy to get this done quickly.

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The reason why this guncorks was created for Lockheed Martin, they needed a place,

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they needed a spy plane.

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CIA went to them and said, create the spy plane that we need it now.

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We needed, you know, Lockheed Martin said, okay, took a separate chunk out,

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took all the bureaucratic nonsense out of it and said,

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designed it, however to hell, you want to design it.

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And then, and they created the YouTube and, you know, Blackbird and things along those lines.

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So, yeah, I mean, it was a good thing.

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But let me, let me, let me turn back.

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So, so, and get back to this military industrial complex.

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So, let's say you have something you want to keep quiet.

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And you know, you have the FOIA and you know, you know, you have Congress can,

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you know, can look at this stuff or they can call people up and say, you know,

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in the military and say, I need to know more about this particular program.

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But if you, if you classified and turned it into a special access program or special

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compartmental information, or you have a bigot list, you know, you can only like 10 people

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are honored or something like that and or 100 people are on it and then you put it there.

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Those are usually safeguarded from most members of Congress in the Senate.

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Now, the gang of eight, you know, these senators and congressmen.

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Yeah, they, they pretty much have access to that.

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And so does Sissy and Hipsy.

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Sometimes not all of people on Sissy, Sissy and Hipsy, but usually the directors will have

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access to that information. So, they're fulfilling their obligation to Congress through that.

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So, there's new legislation that's coming out saying like, oh, we're going to get more information.

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Well, yeah, they're going to get more from peripheral agencies.

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I think for like the NORAD and maybe NASA.

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Because NASA is not only a civilian agency, it's a defense, defense agency also.

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I mean, people don't know that, but it's actually, you know, a defense agency.

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So, it has a military component to it.

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So, yeah, they'll get it.

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But, but classification programs, the really deep stuff, they're not obligated.

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They're not going to be obligated to tell everybody in Congress or everybody, you know,

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in the senator or what have you, but they are obligated.

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And they, if I want to understand, they do brief people on the National Security Council

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at the gang of eight. And so, so their obligations are actually met.

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That doesn't mean that the gang of eight or the intelligence committees will share that

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information writ large with other people out there. Now, whether that's good or bad,

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you know, that's, that's, I mean, I, I mean, everybody would like to see more transparency

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around this issue. But again, I don't, I don't really think that, that the government,

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any government really knows what this is. And I don't think they have any kind of understanding

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of it at all. And I, and the other thing about it is it's, it's absolutely absurd to think that

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this phenomenon, you know, is, is centered in the government in some way that the government is,

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the one of the reasons, you know, Tom started TTS. And why glue joined it is because we needed

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to go private. I brief some very senior people in the intelligence community telling them,

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we're going private with this because you can't do a damn thing. You can't. I mean, it doesn't

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belong to you. Number one, number one, it, it shows up to everybody. It shows, it showed up to me,

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it showed up to lots of people. It showed all around the world hundreds of thousands,

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if not millions of people have experiences. So it doesn't belong to any government or military

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belongs to everybody. But the military for, they claim for national security reasons. And there,

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I'm sure there's some better legitimate. They're not going to be willing to share too much.

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The Russians want to know what we know. We want to know what the Russians know, you know, the Italians,

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the, the, the British, the Israelis, Canadians, everybody wants to know what everybody else knows.

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But you can't really share that information because if you were able to reverse engineer

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some information on data that you picked up may not be a crashed, you know, a crash retrieval

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or something like that. Or it could be, I don't know. But if even if just by looking, you know,

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at some of the data we have on, on say, Tic-Tac, you were able to basically reverse

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engineers and data. You don't want the Russians to know what you have, what you're, what's being

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developed from that. Yeah. Yeah. And just, just real quick. So are we talking like possibly like

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a dozen legacy programs or dozens altogether? If you had to take a guess.

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But I don't think there's that many. I, you know, I think there could might be like three or four

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hanging out there someplace. Okay. And then they might be, you know, they might be divided

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up and compartmentalized too in the different areas. Don't forget, I mean, you know, when, when,

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you, when you look at, when you look at, like say, for instance, what CIA was doing, and I'm not

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talking out of school here a bit, but the CIA was doing, when they were doing MK Ultra, you know,

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they got an MK Ultra simply because they found out that the Nazis were involved in, you know,

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mind control or trying to attempt to do mind control back, you know, during the war.

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So when they realized that the Russians were probably, you know, interested in this too,

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and they knew that through leaks that the Russians were interested in this, they couldn't,

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they couldn't ignore it. So they got into, you know, the mind control, psychotropic drugs,

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things along those lines. It was a totally fucked up program. But what happened was in the end,

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MK Ultra was really the basis for looking into the paranormal. We got to remote viewing program,

[0:23:05 - 0:23:13] ▶

you know, the house involved with at SRI, and the kit ran for 20 years,

[0:23:13 - 0:23:18] ▶

kit greed ran for 20 years. So there was, you know, a lot of intelligence is reactionary.

[0:23:19 - 0:23:29] ▶

And, you know, and just because you don't understand what this phenomenon are,

[0:23:29 - 0:23:34] ▶

if they could pose a threat, you have to look at them. That's why, you know, when, when,

[0:23:35 - 0:23:40] ▶

that's why you don't hear anything from the, from the Air Force safe wraps, it's about, anyway,

[0:23:41 - 0:23:45] ▶

bees, they're not going to say we don't do anything. Of course they do something. They're just not

[0:23:45 - 0:23:50] ▶

going to tell you what you're doing. Yeah. And what might be this the scope of some of the legacy

[0:23:50 - 0:23:55] ▶

programs? I know some people are going to speculate like crash retrievals and things like that.

[0:23:55 - 0:23:59] ▶

I don't know. I mean, I would just be guessing how big they are, how small they are.

[0:24:00 - 0:24:05] ▶

But here's the other problem with this. And I mean, for personal experience,

[0:24:06 - 0:24:12] ▶

if somebody came to me at the agency and said, we need, we heard a particular country has

[0:24:14 - 0:24:25] ▶

a particular technology that's really far advanced. But we don't know if it's true.

[0:24:25 - 0:24:31] ▶

So what I would do, I would say, okay, it's going to, let me, let me check. So I would check

[0:24:32 - 0:24:38] ▶

in my sources and I would go out and look around and say, I came back and I said, actually,

[0:24:38 - 0:24:43] ▶

there's a possibility it may be true. But for me to find out, it's going to cost X amount of

[0:24:43 - 0:24:47] ▶

dollars. So say, say, the Navy came to me and said, we need that, we need, but we need to know.

[0:24:47 - 0:24:54] ▶

So the Navy would give me money and I would go out and I would create an operation to go out and

[0:24:54 - 0:24:59] ▶

find out whether this particular technology was real or not. And sometimes it was real and sometimes

[0:24:59 - 0:25:04] ▶

it wasn't. Right. And then the next object is, how do I get it? Right. But I don't want to get into

[0:25:04 - 0:25:08] ▶

that. So I guess, I guess the point I'm making is these things don't go away just because you can't

[0:25:08 - 0:25:16] ▶

find out what they do is they get shelved. Because if you run across a problem, like I say,

[0:25:16 - 0:25:23] ▶

the UAP problem and you, you're looking at data like some of the TicTac data. I mean,

[0:25:23 - 0:25:30] ▶

you're looking at it and you're going, how the hell do they do 40,000 G's either equivalent

[0:25:30 - 0:25:36] ▶

to 40,000 G's? You know, there's nothing we have in our toolbox that can even approach that.

[0:25:36 - 0:25:42] ▶

And there's so many, so many questions involved in that. There's this precognitive questions.

[0:25:45 - 0:25:49] ▶

How did the TicTac know the gutter, the cat point, which is highly classified and it's

[0:25:50 - 0:25:56] ▶

delivered verbally to these pilots, top secret, but they knew exactly where these pilots

[0:25:57 - 0:26:03] ▶

were supposed to meet right after their missions to protect the fleet. That's very

[0:26:03 - 0:26:09] ▶

disquieting to an admiral or to a captain, right? How they knew this. So there's all these other

[0:26:09 - 0:26:14] ▶

elements involved. And the biological elements, the Gillibrand amendment talked a lot about that.

[0:26:14 - 0:26:19] ▶

Too, you know, it wasn't just nuts and bolts. It's so many other things. So if you're in the

[0:26:19 - 0:26:25] ▶

government and you're in the Air Force CIA NASA, wherever it is and you're looking at this stuff,

[0:26:25 - 0:26:29] ▶

I mean, you realize right away, you know, probably within weeks, if not sooner, that wow,

[0:26:29 - 0:26:36] ▶

this is a lot bigger than physics and it's a lot bigger than mathematics. It's a lot bigger than

[0:26:36 - 0:26:42] ▶

engineering. You're really talking about consciousness. You're talking about some elements,

[0:26:42 - 0:26:48] ▶

aquatic mechanics. You're talking about religion. You're talking about a lot of different things.

[0:26:48 - 0:26:53] ▶

Psychology, you know, and go ahead. I'm sorry. I know. Just finish that thought and then I'll

[0:26:53 - 0:26:59] ▶

ask my next question. Yeah. And what science does not have and science has done wonderful things

[0:26:59 - 0:27:06] ▶

and it continues to do wonderful things. But what we don't have and William James, I don't know if

[0:27:06 - 0:27:11] ▶

you're familiar with him, the father of water from college. Yeah. And he talked about this. He

[0:27:11 - 0:27:14] ▶

said, because he was in developed, you know, investing in psychic phenomena back around the turn

[0:27:14 - 0:27:19] ▶

of the century in 1900s. Yeah. And you know, and he said, you know, what we really need is a radical

[0:27:19 - 0:27:24] ▶

radical empiricism, a radical science is a way to take these anomalous behaviors or these

[0:27:25 - 0:27:31] ▶

anomalies that you see. He's 40 and, you know, a bunch of data that comes up and we need to study

[0:27:31 - 0:27:37] ▶

him and we need to study them and find out what they actually are. But since there's no predictability

[0:27:37 - 0:27:43] ▶

or reliability associated with me, can't experiment with him. So what you end up, well, what you

[0:27:43 - 0:27:50] ▶

should be doing is what Jack delay is doing right now. A lot of field-centric studies because,

[0:27:50 - 0:27:56] ▶

you know, how do you study chimpanzees? Well, you can put them in a cage, you know, and look at them

[0:27:56 - 0:28:00] ▶

that way. But if you want to know how they live in their environment, you have to go to their

[0:28:00 - 0:28:04] ▶

environment. So what Jack is basically saying is if we're going to study UFOs or UAPs, we have to

[0:28:04 - 0:28:09] ▶

go to the environment where they show up and then, you know, and really do deep dives on these

[0:28:09 - 0:28:14] ▶

things. So, so I think, you know, that's sort of where we are. And I'm sorry, I'm just very

[0:28:14 - 0:28:19] ▶

discursive here. I get excited when I start talking about this. I'm sort of rambling, I apologize.

[0:28:19 - 0:28:24] ▶

No, it's great. It's great. I really appreciate your thoughts on the subjects. And, you know,

[0:28:25 - 0:28:30] ▶

everybody's excited about the new language and the new office, the all-domain anomaly,

[0:28:30 - 0:28:36] ▶

the resolution office. Do you think that that approach, and again, with the Gillabran amendment,

[0:28:36 - 0:28:43] ▶

do you think any of that is going to kind of pierce the shell of the legacy programs?

[0:28:43 - 0:28:47] ▶

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I really do. But, you know, I'm going to qualify that.

[0:28:47 - 0:28:51] ▶

You know, I think, you know, Chris Mellon and Lou Elizondo deserve an enormous amount of credit

[0:28:55 - 0:28:59] ▶

for this because they worked, you know, the halls of Congress and they still are working the halls

[0:28:59 - 0:29:05] ▶

of Congress on this. And, you know, bringing the data, the classified data to that I saw,

[0:29:05 - 0:29:12] ▶

and that, you know, to Congress and basically saying, you tell us. And of course, once the

[0:29:13 - 0:29:21] ▶

congressmen and the senators see this, they realize this is all real. And it is an ours, and it

[0:29:21 - 0:29:27] ▶

isn't Russian and it's not Chinese. So, it doesn't leave many possibilities, right?

[0:29:27 - 0:29:32] ▶

So, the door is open. It's definitely not going away. I mean, there's no way you're going to be

[0:29:34 - 0:29:39] ▶

able to sit on this. Anybody's going to be able to sit on this. That said, the new,

[0:29:39 - 0:29:45] ▶

be very, when you read the legislation that's coming out, there's always these little

[0:29:46 - 0:29:52] ▶

cautousels in there, our little paragraphs saying, yeah, but, you know, we're going to protect

[0:29:52 - 0:29:57] ▶

the national security data and what have you. A lot of information could fall under that. A lot of

[0:29:57 - 0:30:02] ▶

information can fall under that. So, let me give you an example. I mean, if you had a defense

[0:30:02 - 0:30:10] ▶

contract that was working on, say something associated with UAPs, whatever it might be,

[0:30:10 - 0:30:17] ▶

something nuts and bolts, something, you know, psychological or what have you.

[0:30:17 - 0:30:21] ▶

The mere fact that a private organization is working on that with private citizens,

[0:30:23 - 0:30:30] ▶

you know, working on that, even though it's a military contract or an agency contract or something,

[0:30:30 - 0:30:35] ▶

you can't make that public. You can't expose that company to, and say, well, yeah, I mean,

[0:30:36 - 0:30:45] ▶

here's a defense contract. He's working on this aspect. We can't tell you what it is, but

[0:30:45 - 0:30:50] ▶

this is a defense contradicts working on it. And they can't do that. You can't do that because

[0:30:50 - 0:30:53] ▶

that opens a defense contractor up to, you know, commercial SP knowledge, foreign SP knowledge.

[0:30:53 - 0:30:59] ▶

It could alter their stock price, you know, and some people thought it was all crazy. So,

[0:31:00 - 0:31:04] ▶

there's all kinds of, you know, private confidentiality things you have to take into effect.

[0:31:04 - 0:31:09] ▶

Also, the idea that if you did that enough times, a good intelligence analyst can look at that

[0:31:09 - 0:31:18] ▶

and actually start putting pieces together and come up with, this is how the intelligence

[0:31:18 - 0:31:23] ▶

community works. And you get these little individual pieces of information,

[0:31:23 - 0:31:27] ▶

human, mason, GM and you know, and you put them all together and you go, oh, so that's what they're

[0:31:27 - 0:31:33] ▶

doing. And you start connecting the dots and then you come up with a pretty good idea of what

[0:31:33 - 0:31:37] ▶

they have in their program. And I think that's one of the problems associated with this. So,

[0:31:37 - 0:31:42] ▶

I don't think it's because these programs deliberately want to hide. And you know, I mean,

[0:31:43 - 0:31:47] ▶

where you have a nefarious cabal in there saying, no, no, we're never going to tell the American

[0:31:47 - 0:31:51] ▶

people they don't deserve to know. I think it all comes down to tell your friends, tell your enemies.

[0:31:51 - 0:31:56] ▶

So, I think they're trying to find a way, I think, to go get around that in some way. And maybe

[0:31:57 - 0:32:02] ▶

they can. I hope they can. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, do you think that even people within those kind of

[0:32:02 - 0:32:07] ▶

programs would maybe even want to cooperate with something like that? No, I mean, individually,

[0:32:07 - 0:32:15] ▶

you can't do that. I mean, individually, you can't make your, you can't make up your mind to say,

[0:32:15 - 0:32:20] ▶

thank you're working for a program and you're working for a defense contractor. And you said,

[0:32:20 - 0:32:23] ▶

yeah, I think they should, I think people should know about this. I'm going to be a whistleblower.

[0:32:23 - 0:32:27] ▶

You can't do that. You sign an agreement. You have top secret clearances or it's kind of

[0:32:28 - 0:32:33] ▶

NDAs. You know, you owe that. I mean, and because here's what the problem is, you know, you get

[0:32:33 - 0:32:39] ▶

guys like Snowden and this other, this other clown, Shulti from CIA, you came out and dropped all

[0:32:39 - 0:32:45] ▶

this information. You know, they think they did the world a big favor, you know, and what they did

[0:32:45 - 0:32:51] ▶

was cost the government billions of dollars in research and R&D because they decided, you know,

[0:32:51 - 0:32:58] ▶

at their level, at their 2000 foot level that they were going to, you know, correct the wrong for

[0:32:58 - 0:33:05] ▶

a safe, for instance, but yet they're not at that 30,000 foot level looking below and saying, well,

[0:33:05 - 0:33:10] ▶

reason why we're doing this is because X, Y and C. And yes, it has been briefed by Congress. And

[0:33:10 - 0:33:16] ▶

yeah, we can't tell the American people because if we tell the American people, we're going to be

[0:33:16 - 0:33:20] ▶

telling all our friends, I mean, all our enemies what we're doing. So there's a, you got to be

[0:33:20 - 0:33:24] ▶

really, really careful with all this kind of stuff. And it's not perfect. It really isn't perfect.

[0:33:24 - 0:33:30] ▶

And there are some things. And then I'm glad the Pentagon papers came out, for instance, but

[0:33:30 - 0:33:34] ▶

some of this other stuff, I don't know. I mean, what if you, what if you, what if you had information,

[0:33:36 - 0:33:42] ▶

say, for instance, one of these agencies had information that was really

[0:33:42 - 0:33:45] ▶

shattered psychologically or could be considered psychologically shattering.

[0:33:46 - 0:33:51] ▶

Yeah. Yeah. And let's just say guys like you and me, instead of had experience with this,

[0:33:51 - 0:33:57] ▶

all right, we'll take it. Yeah, yeah, okay. And they might be disturbing, you know, very

[0:33:58 - 0:34:04] ▶

disquieting information, but because we are background and we're used to it, you know, we're

[0:34:04 - 0:34:09] ▶

accommodating ourselves to our psychological profile as such that we're accepting of them.

[0:34:09 - 0:34:12] ▶

But most people aren't like that. Yeah. And when we started TTS, we'll TTSA back in the day, we

[0:34:13 - 0:34:21] ▶

had discussions about this all the time. Yeah. Are we sure we want to bring this out? I mean,

[0:34:22 - 0:34:26] ▶

are we going to scare eight-year-olds? You know, I've had friends of mine who,

[0:34:27 - 0:34:31] ▶

oh my daughter wants to know all about UFOs. Can she talk to you about it? I would say no. No,

[0:34:31 - 0:34:37] ▶

I'm not talking to you about this. What am I going to tell her? Or him, you know, these little kids,

[0:34:37 - 0:34:42] ▶

you know, 10, 11 years old. Yeah, that there's a force that exists out there that can control our

[0:34:42 - 0:34:48] ▶

environment that can put thoughts in your head that can lie to you, trick you, deceive you,

[0:34:48 - 0:34:54] ▶

and that you're not in control of your life. Let's say that to a 12-year-old. I mean,

[0:34:55 - 0:35:01] ▶

we're already saying it to a certain extent. But, you know, right now with Hollywood and everything

[0:35:01 - 0:35:07] ▶

else in TV, you know, they got that ET version of it, you know, out, you know, the friendly little

[0:35:07 - 0:35:13] ▶

things popping around. But I don't think that's always the case. Yeah. And the last question about

[0:35:13 - 0:35:20] ▶

the legacy programs is just, what if it possible they had like a legacy program that involved

[0:35:20 - 0:35:27] ▶

either, you know, contact, or UAPs and psychic phenomenon? Yeah, it'd be possible. I would be

[0:35:28 - 0:35:35] ▶

surprised if they get. Right, right. For sure. So, you know, just getting getting more,

[0:35:35 - 0:35:42] ▶

because I have a, I could sit here all day and talk with you about every subject under the sun

[0:35:42 - 0:35:46] ▶

about UAP. But regarding, like, say, the crash retrieval idea, you know, Philip Korsow came out with

[0:35:46 - 0:35:55] ▶

his testimony, I believe in the late 80s, early 90s, talking about, you know, crash retrievals acquired

[0:35:55 - 0:36:02] ▶

and technology and technology transfer. So, besides, you know, what's suggested in

[0:36:02 - 0:36:10] ▶

Colonel Korsow's book, do you think that there have been technologies that could have been leaked

[0:36:10 - 0:36:15] ▶

into the public? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a possibility. The problem with Korsow's book is,

[0:36:15 - 0:36:27] ▶

I have no problem believing Korsow at all. Not. Right. The problem with is, I don't think he was

[0:36:28 - 0:36:35] ▶

responsible for writing the book the way he probably wanted it to be written. I think.

[0:36:35 - 0:36:42] ▶

It's a Bill Burns. Yeah. And I think there was a lot of material that was added in there that made

[0:36:42 - 0:36:47] ▶

no sense to me when I was reading it. Yeah. I think the core story is true. I can't imagine why

[0:36:47 - 0:36:55] ▶

anybody like that would would would lie like that. I mean, I mean, people do lie. But Korsow's

[0:36:55 - 0:37:00] ▶

psychological profile and for what I know of him, and I, you know, he was he was a well-known

[0:37:00 - 0:37:07] ▶

character and people knew him. He was a straight-up guy. So, I look at that and I sort of believe

[0:37:07 - 0:37:12] ▶

the story. Now, is everything in the book true? I don't I don't think so. I think a lot of it was

[0:37:12 - 0:37:16] ▶

exaggerated. Right. But I think the core story is actually there. So yeah, yeah.

[0:37:16 - 0:37:22] ▶

Yeah, the possibility of leak technologies into the public. And if that were the case,

[0:37:23 - 0:37:28] ▶

what arenas or what like what area of technology might have been leaked down to the public?

[0:37:28 - 0:37:33] ▶

Well, I don't know. I mean, I couldn't comment at that. I mean, I'll tell you, CIA's do this

[0:37:34 - 0:37:40] ▶

all the time. And he's C.I.A. would have a program. And well, our, you know, Google Earth. Google

[0:37:40 - 0:37:45] ▶

is John Ramirez likes to point out, you know, was a CIA program. And we had our own

[0:37:46 - 0:37:51] ▶

satellites up there, you know, looking at the earth. And this is and was an older technology for us.

[0:37:53 - 0:37:57] ▶

But it's, you know, we're civic minded. I mean, you know, these intelligence agencies

[0:37:58 - 0:38:03] ▶

looked at this and said, well, we're not going to, you know, throw this technology. Right. So we

[0:38:03 - 0:38:08] ▶

gave it to, well, now it's Max R technologies. And they licensed it to Google Earth. But Google

[0:38:08 - 0:38:14] ▶

Earth was a CIA program. Every time a government agency develops a program and it becomes slightly

[0:38:14 - 0:38:22] ▶

outdated, but it still has commercial applications, that information is given. All right. It's given

[0:38:22 - 0:38:28] ▶

out to, you know, commercial entities so they can use it. And because it's, you know, it's government

[0:38:28 - 0:38:34] ▶

money, you know, and I mean, so they have a right to do that. And how they do that, I'm not 100% sure

[0:38:34 - 0:38:39] ▶

figure out which company gets it in one half you, but, but no, I mean, it's, you know, if the

[0:38:39 - 0:38:46] ▶

government was working on a particular technology and say, for instance, transistors,

[0:38:46 - 0:38:51] ▶

and they already basically had a technology and then they went, you know, slightly better technology

[0:38:52 - 0:38:59] ▶

that outdated that one for military purposes, they would take the old technology and they would

[0:38:59 - 0:39:04] ▶

filter it in. So I think maybe some of that was happening. Maybe some of the paperclip scientists

[0:39:04 - 0:39:11] ▶

got us into transistors, things along those lines, fiber optics, and we developed a technology,

[0:39:11 - 0:39:16] ▶

we were using it. And then we took it a generation ahead. So the older generation was, was

[0:39:16 - 0:39:22] ▶

leaked into the commercial sector. Yeah, that's fine. Now did we get it from aircraft? I mean,

[0:39:22 - 0:39:26] ▶

did we get it from a flying saucer from Roswell? Maybe, you know, yeah. And I'm not sure

[0:39:26 - 0:39:36] ▶

in your job, if you ever dealt with technology acquisition at all, but were you ever involved

[0:39:36 - 0:39:43] ▶

with recoveries like a crash retrieval or some kind of technology recovery? I did. I was involved.

[0:39:43 - 0:39:51] ▶

Most of my career was, I liked, you know, when the agency, you can, you can, you can actually

[0:39:51 - 0:39:59] ▶

develop an expertise or you can develop a little niche that you could follow. And usually,

[0:39:59 - 0:40:05] ▶

if they're good at it, they'll let you do it. And mine was high tech. And I loved high tech

[0:40:05 - 0:40:09] ▶

and technology is weird exotic technologies, but no, I had nothing to do with

[0:40:09 - 0:40:13] ▶

the crash retrieval programs or UFOs at all. And I was like, the laugh and people say, well, you

[0:40:13 - 0:40:19] ▶

know, do you know anything about CIA activities regarding UAP? And I said, you know,

[0:40:19 - 0:40:24] ▶

30 some years of working for them, I've never seen a UAP office or, you know, or UFO office anywhere.

[0:40:25 - 0:40:30] ▶

And I mean, every once in a while, you would hear people talk, you know, about things, but

[0:40:31 - 0:40:37] ▶

there was nothing you can, you can pin down. But yeah, I mean, more terrestrial type

[0:40:37 - 0:40:42] ▶

technologies. Yes, I know quite a bit about them. Or I did, you know, now I'm sort of outdated. But

[0:40:42 - 0:40:46] ▶

yeah, I mean, if you had, if you had to speculate on like UAP inspired technologies today,

[0:40:47 - 0:40:54] ▶

what do you think some of those might be?

[0:40:54 - 0:40:55] ▶

Um, well, I mean, you know, and I gravity, for instance, is, and space time metric work,

[0:40:58 - 0:41:07] ▶

things along those lines, I think those are fusion technology. I think those,

[0:41:07 - 0:41:13] ▶

you know, have been around a long time and people are working on those. I think we'll make

[0:41:14 - 0:41:20] ▶

headway, particularly with fusion technology, and I, you know, actually sooner rather than later.

[0:41:20 - 0:41:24] ▶

And a gravity, I think they've already proved the concept and a much, much small,

[0:41:26 - 0:41:30] ▶

in a small scale, they can do that. Right. Large scale, I don't know. But when you look at

[0:41:30 - 0:41:36] ▶

things like stealth, you know, stealth fighters and stuff, they were on the,

[0:41:37 - 0:41:41] ▶

they were basically completed in the 80s, right?

[0:41:41 - 0:41:44] ▶

Yeah.

[0:41:44 - 0:41:45] ▶

So, and so you have to look at, well, if that's true, you know, what's on the drawing board now?

[0:41:45 - 0:41:52] ▶

It's a skunk works, you know, and I were talking to Steve Justice about it. Of course,

[0:41:52 - 0:41:57] ▶

he doesn't say anything. And, but, you know, I imagine there's some incredibly exotic technologies

[0:41:57 - 0:42:06] ▶

that are being worked on right now by the fence contractors, the Air Force, and that are going to

[0:42:06 - 0:42:13] ▶

really be mind-blowing. And they probably will show themselves in the next,

[0:42:14 - 0:42:19] ▶

hey, five years, 10 years.

[0:42:19 - 0:42:20] ▶

Yeah. Do you think any other, like, UAP inspired technology is crossed over to, like, the communications

[0:42:20 - 0:42:26] ▶

field?

[0:42:26 - 0:42:27] ▶

Yeah. I'm sure. And, and this is, you know, this is, you know, when we first started TTSA and we were,

[0:42:27 - 0:42:35] ▶

we were all talking. And, you know, a lot of us had the top-seeker clearances. And so, but we

[0:42:35 - 0:42:40] ▶

were always very, very careful about sharing information, because, you know, I had my own

[0:42:40 - 0:42:46] ▶

information and then Lou had his, Chris had his, Steve had his, Hal had his. But we didn't,

[0:42:46 - 0:42:52] ▶

we didn't cross, you know, it's because you have a top-seeker clearance, doesn't mean the guy who

[0:42:52 - 0:42:57] ▶

has a top-seeker clearance too, you can, you can share data with them. It's all compartmentalized.

[0:42:57 - 0:43:01] ▶

Unless you have a need to know, you're not going to know. But I remember going up to Steve and I

[0:43:02 - 0:43:07] ▶

said, when we were looking, we were analyzing the GoFast video before we released it. And then the

[0:43:07 - 0:43:14] ▶

gimbal. And I said, Steve, what do you think? And he looked at it and he goes, I want to build that.

[0:43:14 - 0:43:22] ▶

You know, and he's, you know, one of the best designers, you know, we have, right?

[0:43:22 - 0:43:26] ▶

aeronautical engineers and designers that we have. And he sketched out this really cool looking craft

[0:43:27 - 0:43:34] ▶

on how he would design it. And, you know, and I wanted to put it on a t-shirt right away, you know,

[0:43:35 - 0:43:40] ▶

we couldn't do it. But it's a picture of it. We have hanging somewhere. I don't know where it is.

[0:43:40 - 0:43:47] ▶

But yeah, I mean, he looked at it and he said, this is what it would look like. And he said, but,

[0:43:47 - 0:43:53] ▶

you know, but it's going to cost me $50 million just to get the plans done. And actually,

[0:43:53 - 0:43:57] ▶

that was part of the TTSA, believe it or not, of the TTSA research side of the house. So we were

[0:43:57 - 0:44:02] ▶

actually going to do that until COVID hit and everything just sort of collapsed on that angle.

[0:44:02 - 0:44:08] ▶

Some of our investors just backed away. But, you know, you look at that and, and, you know, as Steve said,

[0:44:09 - 0:44:16] ▶

yeah, I can, I can, I can, I can start a program to do that. I can make this, but it's going to take

[0:44:16 - 0:44:22] ▶

X amount of, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars and it's going to do blah, blah, blah.

[0:44:22 - 0:44:26] ▶

But that can be done. Or I could do the proof of concept cheaper, maybe a 50, 60 million,

[0:44:26 - 0:44:31] ▶

and then hand it over to the military and then have them follow through. So yeah. And, you know, kind

[0:44:31 - 0:44:38] ▶

of speaking to the idea of crash retrievals. You're definitely familiar with the Wilson Davis notes

[0:44:38 - 0:44:45] ▶

by now, the alleged meeting that Dr. Eric Davis had with Admiral Tom Wilson. Right.

[0:44:45 - 0:44:51] ▶

What are your thoughts on that story? I will not comment on that. Yeah. All right. Yeah, for sure. And,

[0:44:52 - 0:44:58] ▶

yeah, so moving on, let's, I, there's a few kind of like, like a rapid fire kind of insider

[0:45:01 - 0:45:07] ▶

ideas, right? Because you, I mean, you're on the inside loop to an extent of what's going on with

[0:45:08 - 0:45:12] ▶

this. So, you know, how to, how to, you know, people, people in your field really look at,

[0:45:12 - 0:45:18] ▶

like, abduction, the abduction phenomenon or experiences.

[0:45:19 - 0:45:23] ▶

Yeah. You know, it's, I had an experience and, you know, I mean, you know,

[0:45:25 - 0:45:31] ▶

technically, you know, you can class it as a quote unquote abduction experience. I don't

[0:45:31 - 0:45:35] ▶

call it that because I don't know what it is. I mean, I don't. And, you know, I think John Mack,

[0:45:36 - 0:45:43] ▶

you know, the Harvard, you know, psychiatrist, summed it up. He said, the closest we can get to

[0:45:43 - 0:45:50] ▶

what this actually is, is a mystery. And he said, I don't think we can actually go farther than that.

[0:45:50 - 0:45:55] ▶

At least right now, we can't go farther than that. I've been saying that it's a mystery.

[0:45:55 - 0:45:58] ▶

I, I certainly do believe that this occurs. It happened to me. And, you know,

[0:45:59 - 0:46:08] ▶

if somebody said, you know, how real was it? I would say it's about as real as real gets.

[0:46:09 - 0:46:14] ▶

I said, but then again, you know, was it something that was it a memory? Was it a, was I set up?

[0:46:15 - 0:46:28] ▶

I was, what did what I what I experienced? And what I remembered was that, you know, was that

[0:46:28 - 0:46:34] ▶

implanted by whatever these entities are or this, this, I called it once a nonhuman technology,

[0:46:34 - 0:46:41] ▶

because I think that's probably what it is that made me believe it was this, you know, how the

[0:46:41 - 0:46:48] ▶

entities looked and, you know, how some of the physical manifestations that occurred.

[0:46:48 - 0:46:56] ▶

Yeah, you know, I don't know. I have friends in mind that, you know, we look at Chris Blood says

[0:46:58 - 0:47:05] ▶

experience, probably one of the most dramatic. If you hear, you know, him tell the story,

[0:47:05 - 0:47:11] ▶

it's just absolutely incredible. And if you know the man, you know, you know, this is a guy who's

[0:47:11 - 0:47:17] ▶

about a straight up honest, decent human being, you could possibly imagine. This is just a wonderful,

[0:47:17 - 0:47:26] ▶

wonderful man. His children, his wife, you can't get any better than this. So they're all

[0:47:26 - 0:47:31] ▶

Americans family. They're just wonderfully good people. And I always look at kids, you know, and I mean,

[0:47:31 - 0:47:38] ▶

as I can find, meet the parents, you know, and I look at the kids and kids are crap shooting. I don't

[0:47:38 - 0:47:42] ▶

know if you have anything. I don't have any, but kids are just a crap shoot. Great parents,

[0:47:42 - 0:47:45] ▶

lousy kids, vice versa. Or sometimes that when you have parents that are really, really good and

[0:47:45 - 0:47:49] ▶

you look at the kids and the kids are just, you know, just great. They love each other. They love

[0:47:49 - 0:47:53] ▶

their parents think they get along real well. And you look at that and you go, okay, that's a

[0:47:53 - 0:47:57] ▶

that's a family. Yeah, everybody, every family has his functions and what have you about.

[0:47:57 - 0:48:00] ▶

You know, I just think they're a great all-American family. And but when Chris went through,

[0:48:01 - 0:48:06] ▶

and I believe every word he tells me and about this. And not only do I believe every word he tells me,

[0:48:09 - 0:48:15] ▶

he attracted the attention of a lot of people, DIA, NASA, CIA,

[0:48:15 - 0:48:22] ▶

other agencies, everybody wanted to get close to him. Everybody wanted to know

[0:48:26 - 0:48:32] ▶

as much as information as they possibly can because his experience, it took in not only the classic

[0:48:33 - 0:48:41] ▶

abduction scenario, because he had missing time, right, where he had no idea what was going on,

[0:48:41 - 0:48:48] ▶

right. But he also met, he met the entities themselves and he also met the lady.

[0:48:48 - 0:48:56] ▶

And not many people meet the lady. And I think, and the lady is an element in all of this

[0:48:58 - 0:49:08] ▶

that really hasn't been explored very much. I will tell you that in some circles, it's taken very,

[0:49:08 - 0:49:21] ▶

very seriously. But it hasn't been explored. The Catholic church looked at it, you know, because a

[0:49:21 - 0:49:29] ▶

lot of the sightings, you know, Michigori, you know, Fatima, Lords, you know, they were all the lady

[0:49:29 - 0:49:39] ▶

appeared. You know, nobody that was none of the children that saw any of this, they ever claimed

[0:49:39 - 0:49:46] ▶

it was it was a Virgin Mary. It was just the lady. It was just a lady who showed up.

[0:49:46 - 0:49:50] ▶

Right. And I doubt the Virgin Mary had blonde hair and blue eyes.

[0:49:51 - 0:49:55] ▶

It's genetic. And of course, you know, the lady would lie and the lady, you know, would

[0:49:56 - 0:50:04] ▶

scare the living hell out of them. And, you know, fire and brimstown sometimes, sometimes lovely

[0:50:04 - 0:50:10] ▶

messages. A typical abduction scenario where these beings, you know, come to people and they tell

[0:50:10 - 0:50:19] ▶

them stories. They have a line about the, you know, the environment and things along those lines.

[0:50:20 - 0:50:26] ▶

But they're generally, they generally, there's a trickster element to it. There is a physical,

[0:50:26 - 0:50:34] ▶

not very nice physical element to it. There's a very strong sexual element to it.

[0:50:34 - 0:50:39] ▶

It's not, I mean, sexual is homoerotic in some cases.

[0:50:40 - 0:50:46] ▶

And I don't know what the hell you make of that. You know, I have no idea.

[0:50:49 - 0:50:52] ▶

But these are all strong light motifs that run through these these abduction scenarios.

[0:50:54 - 0:50:59] ▶

So I think we have to be very, very careful when we talk about them. Then you have the military

[0:51:00 - 0:51:03] ▶

abductions. I was just going to ask about that. My lab's military abduction.

[0:51:03 - 0:51:08] ▶

Yeah. I have a friend of mine who I respect very highly. Melinda Leslie, who was

[0:51:08 - 0:51:13] ▶

had a very dramatic experience with this. And if you hear her story, it's you can tell. You know,

[0:51:15 - 0:51:22] ▶

this is, you know, I believe everything she says. I just don't know what to hell to do with it.

[0:51:22 - 0:51:28] ▶

And the problem with it is, you don't know. I mean, you don't know. There's no context.

[0:51:29 - 0:51:39] ▶

There's no place to put it. It's like abduction scenarios. Where the hell do you put that? I mean,

[0:51:39 - 0:51:44] ▶

what branch of science or philosophy or psychology, do you put that? It doesn't neatly fit into

[0:51:45 - 0:51:52] ▶

anything. Right? Well, and so two things about that is one, which I found really interesting.

[0:51:53 - 0:51:59] ▶

Because I, you know, somebody that was was talking a lot about my labs. Again, maybe

[0:51:59 - 0:52:04] ▶

I thought you, yeah, I'm sorry about that. Yeah. So within their own framing of talking about

[0:52:07 - 0:52:12] ▶

the subject, which might be correct or incorrect or Stephen Greer, I was talking a lot about my labs.

[0:52:12 - 0:52:18] ▶

And his kind of version of what that is. But then what I found extremely interesting was,

[0:52:18 - 0:52:24] ▶

you know, because we knew doctors Stephen Greer had inside sources. Maybe some good, maybe some

[0:52:24 - 0:52:29] ▶

bad. But then again, you know, here comes Tom and the secret machines books with his own advisors

[0:52:29 - 0:52:35] ▶

and the same kind of, you know, story about my labs is coming out. So, you know, when you have both

[0:52:35 - 0:52:42] ▶

kind of end of the spectrum talking about it, it's very interesting. Well, you know, let's look at

[0:52:42 - 0:52:47] ▶

it this way. I mean, you know, once again, there is a, you have to be very, very careful. And that's

[0:52:47 - 0:52:55] ▶

why I don't like to make any kind of determination one way or the other on, you know, on, on what's real

[0:52:55 - 0:53:02] ▶

here. You know, we have a consensus reality we all agree on, right? Because that's how we live our

[0:53:02 - 0:53:07] ▶

lives. We know, for instance, that our, you know, our visual spectrum, our hearing spectrum,

[0:53:07 - 0:53:13] ▶

auditory spectrum, you know, is very limited, right? On the scale. We know that our brain acts

[0:53:13 - 0:53:19] ▶

as a filter because even though we're all conscious, all the conscious elements that constitute

[0:53:19 - 0:53:26] ▶

our being here, our breathing, how the brain synapses work to, you know, to the way we move our

[0:53:27 - 0:53:33] ▶

hands and things along when we drive a car, there must be a thousand different things going on. But

[0:53:33 - 0:53:37] ▶

we can't really focus on all thousand of them. Can we? We go crazy. So the brain has a way of filtering

[0:53:38 - 0:53:43] ▶

all that stuff out and not can get all down to the basic stuff. So I think when you look at this and

[0:53:43 - 0:53:49] ▶

and you go through, you're looking at it through an anthropocentric view, this this human view

[0:53:49 - 0:53:54] ▶

of, and you're extrapolating it, what could it possibly be? This is religion, right? I mean,

[0:53:55 - 0:54:01] ▶

all these weird things happen and what do you do? Well, the only thing you know how is this like,

[0:54:01 - 0:54:04] ▶

oh, okay, it's been my experience at blah, blah, blah. So it must be this. So you make up all this

[0:54:04 - 0:54:09] ▶

stuff and you codify it and you make canon law and you know, this all the kind of nonsense.

[0:54:09 - 0:54:13] ▶

And we really don't know the essence of it, right? So here you are with, you know, the millab

[0:54:14 - 0:54:20] ▶

stuff and the problem with millab stuff that sticks with me is what it what you have to assume

[0:54:20 - 0:54:28] ▶

if millabs are true is just a bridge too far from me. I believe the experiences accurate,

[0:54:28 - 0:54:37] ▶

don't get me wrong. I just don't think that it is quote unquote, our military during this.

[0:54:37 - 0:54:43] ▶

The logistics behind, behind these millab abductions would entail military units, tons of money,

[0:54:43 - 0:54:55] ▶

people changing, I mean, people that work there, I mean, they can't work there forever, you know,

[0:54:56 - 0:55:02] ▶

you can't like to be this 19 year old kid getting indoctrinated into this quote unquote millab thing

[0:55:02 - 0:55:07] ▶

and then you work the thing and go, it just it doesn't make any sense. Our generals, I mean,

[0:55:07 - 0:55:11] ▶

you know, a colonel's all these captains infrastructure would have to be there. Military bases,

[0:55:12 - 0:55:18] ▶

technology that will allow you to do different things. People, you know, we're taken to military,

[0:55:20 - 0:55:25] ▶

supposedly taken to military installations and things along those lines, people in uniforms.

[0:55:25 - 0:55:30] ▶

And nobody says anything. I mean, there's no, I mean, where would you do it? And it also assumes

[0:55:30 - 0:55:37] ▶

that there is a extremely corrupt, highly illegal cabal out there doing these things and for what

[0:55:37 - 0:55:45] ▶

purpose. In other words, you're being used by our own government for what nefarious purpose.

[0:55:45 - 0:55:51] ▶

I don't see that. Having worked in the government with 32 years, I just, I mean, you can see stuff like

[0:55:52 - 0:55:56] ▶

mk ultra and you know, you can look at that and you can say, yeah, it's a bunch of guys. They

[0:55:56 - 0:56:01] ▶

got out of hand, you know, and the agency did say that way out of hand, you know, in the six years.

[0:56:01 - 0:56:06] ▶

And it wasn't until the church committee in his seventies where a lot of that was exposed.

[0:56:06 - 0:56:10] ▶

And they put it, they put a stop to it. And you know, when I was in the agency, I had a law,

[0:56:11 - 0:56:17] ▶

I mean, every major operation that was involved and it was a lawyer right next to me. And these guys

[0:56:17 - 0:56:22] ▶

were no nonsense. I mean, you know, you could not break the laws, you know, and now overseas,

[0:56:22 - 0:56:26] ▶

you were doing espionage, you could break a lot of laws. But essentially, you're not killing anybody,

[0:56:26 - 0:56:30] ▶

you're not going to try to kill anybody, you don't want anybody to get hurt. You're definitely not

[0:56:30 - 0:56:34] ▶

putting a US citizen in any kind of danger, right? You can't use US citizens like that. And that is

[0:56:34 - 0:56:40] ▶

throughout the government. So it would be an enormously risky enterprise. It would have to be

[0:56:40 - 0:56:49] ▶

extraordinarily well hidden with an aura of security and over magnitude greater than the event,

[0:56:49 - 0:56:54] ▶

hat and project. And for what purpose? I mean, you could get volunteers to do what sometimes,

[0:56:54 - 0:57:02] ▶

what they do to these, you know, people in these no lab, you know, it's apparently no lab

[0:57:02 - 0:57:07] ▶

experiments. So I think we have to be careful and look at this and say what might be going on

[0:57:07 - 0:57:14] ▶

is a classic abduction experiences with an overlay of military intelligence or something on top of

[0:57:14 - 0:57:23] ▶

that. That is basically structured by this, you know, entity or by this phenomenon to mislead in

[0:57:23 - 0:57:30] ▶

the sky. Now, I could be wrong too. So I'm not, you know, you know, but for me to believe that the US

[0:57:30 - 0:57:37] ▶

military is somehow involved, there's just too much, there's too much, I mean, to me, physically

[0:57:37 - 0:57:45] ▶

impossible for them to do that. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. I mean, that's always like a really

[0:57:45 - 0:57:50] ▶

heated debate, I guess, or you know, it's not so much in the public conversation as much now,

[0:57:50 - 0:57:55] ▶

but it comes and goes and it's interesting, you know, some people speculated all, you know,

[0:57:56 - 0:58:01] ▶

they were trying to gather intelligence from people who were having abductions and experiences,

[0:58:01 - 0:58:05] ▶

and that's why they were kind of trying to do it to extract data information. But again,

[0:58:05 - 0:58:12] ▶

I guess that that was a speculation behind it. Yeah. Yeah, as a possible, that a foreign intelligence

[0:58:12 - 0:58:19] ▶

could pull something like that off on an American citizen on Homeland. Well, yeah, I mean, you know,

[0:58:19 - 0:58:24] ▶

the technology used, unless they have an ascenderm, that technology has been around a while.

[0:58:24 - 0:58:31] ▶

And yeah, you can create voices inside people's heads. Now, as far as creating

[0:58:32 - 0:58:39] ▶

scenarios, false memories, that would probably mean that the technology has advanced considerably

[0:58:41 - 0:58:47] ▶

since the 70s when it was first being, you know, experimented with. But the technology

[0:58:47 - 0:58:54] ▶

used, you can buy it, you can buy the equipment, you know, yourself and do it yourself. It's not

[0:58:55 - 0:59:03] ▶

that complicated. Essentially, what you're doing is, you know, you're putting these,

[0:59:03 - 0:59:08] ▶

well, I don't want to get into the wave patterns and stuff, but, you know, you're trying to read,

[0:59:10 - 0:59:14] ▶

you know, clear text, you know, inside something, you're trying to listen in, essentially,

[0:59:14 - 0:59:18] ▶

what it amounts to. It could do that for all kind of reasons. So is there a corporate entity

[0:59:18 - 0:59:23] ▶

that is doing it, you know, is a part of corporate espionage? Is it a non-state intelligence network,

[0:59:23 - 0:59:28] ▶

which is a Pompeo? My Pompeo alluded to during a speech at the State Department a couple of years ago.

[0:59:28 - 0:59:34] ▶

I don't know, you know, I know, no, I have a pretty good idea who's behind it, but I'm not going to

[0:59:34 - 0:59:40] ▶

talk about that. Yeah. Right. And now, just to kind of shift the conversation a little bit to

[0:59:40 - 0:59:47] ▶

the experience, right? So people probably heard that you were an experienced, or you mentioned it

[0:59:48 - 0:59:54] ▶

here. Can you talk a little bit about your experience? No, I don't, I mean, I can talk a little bit

[0:59:54 - 0:59:59] ▶

about it. I don't get into the details. That's for another time. I promised two people that I

[0:59:59 - 1:00:09] ▶

wouldn't, that I respect very highly, that I wouldn't get into it. That's one reason. And the

[1:00:09 - 1:00:17] ▶

second reason is it's still being looked at, and I, it has some elements to it that are sort of

[1:00:17 - 1:00:27] ▶

classic, you know, but it also has some elements to it that aren't. And that look like it could be

[1:00:27 - 1:00:35] ▶

more sinister than we initially thought. So, but I will tell you, you know, that, that what I did,

[1:00:35 - 1:00:43] ▶

my wife and I, you know, we lived in a house that had poltergeist activity. What I would call

[1:00:43 - 1:00:51] ▶

very tame poltergeist activity, you know, footsteps, many of you went to bed footsteps in the hall.

[1:00:51 - 1:00:57] ▶

You know, the attic people in the footsteps in the attic footsteps outside,

[1:00:57 - 1:01:04] ▶

articles, you know, of clothing or shoes being left in weird places, things along those lines.

[1:01:07 - 1:01:13] ▶

My wife and I, being woken up in the middle of the night by

[1:01:15 - 1:01:18] ▶

cigarette smoke and and it turned out that that we figured it was a poltergeist because the

[1:01:19 - 1:01:25] ▶

people that lived there before us, essentially what had happened was this, this, this family lived

[1:01:25 - 1:01:32] ▶

there. The mother was a heavy smoker and they had a couple daughters and she used to every night

[1:01:32 - 1:01:38] ▶

come in and, you know, and smoke a cigarette and, you know, having, running her hand through their

[1:01:38 - 1:01:43] ▶

hair at night and then, you know, reading them stories and putting in the bed. Well, every time my

[1:01:43 - 1:01:47] ▶

wife would go out wearing a trip, she's a medical professional. She'd go out wearing a trip, she'd come

[1:01:47 - 1:01:53] ▶

back and sure enough, somebody was sitting on the bed, you know, maybe smell a cigarette smoke and

[1:01:53 - 1:01:58] ▶

maybe running her hands over through her hair, you know, and we later found this all out when the

[1:01:58 - 1:02:02] ▶

family came to visit us one day out of the blue and then it was very upsetting for them to hear

[1:02:02 - 1:02:08] ▶

these stories. And we also lived on it. It was an old civil war encampment and before that,

[1:02:08 - 1:02:14] ▶

you know, Native American encampment. So, you know, I don't know, but the poltergeist activity was

[1:02:14 - 1:02:20] ▶

tame compared to some of the stuff that you would see. So, so I'm sure there was an element of that

[1:02:20 - 1:02:26] ▶

there, but what was disquieting about our experience was the physical manifestations

[1:02:26 - 1:02:33] ▶

afterwards. And I had nowhere to go with this and it wasn't until, it was a few days later,

[1:02:34 - 1:02:42] ▶

I didn't know what to make of it. It was just the most amazing thing I've ever experienced.

[1:02:42 - 1:02:47] ▶

My wife doesn't remember anything and although she was affected, very seriously affected by it.

[1:02:48 - 1:02:55] ▶

And but the next day later or two days later, I was at work and I was in a CIA outbuilding

[1:02:56 - 1:03:05] ▶

and I had, by me, about a dozen people working for me at the time and I was chasing them home.

[1:03:06 - 1:03:09] ▶

I remember on a Friday night and get out of the office, you guys are, you know, and then I explained

[1:03:09 - 1:03:17] ▶

what had happened to me through to one of my guys there and he was a deep cover guy.

[1:03:17 - 1:03:20] ▶

He had just come back from the Middle East and a very smart guy. I knew he had a PhD and I know

[1:03:21 - 1:03:26] ▶

he'd written books and but I didn't know his real name. I had his real name locked in my safe,

[1:03:26 - 1:03:31] ▶

but I never looked at him and because I didn't have, I didn't want to know. And he, and I explained

[1:03:31 - 1:03:36] ▶

this to him because he told me he was going to a UFO conference in Virginia down the southern Virginia

[1:03:36 - 1:03:41] ▶

and he told me what he thought it was and I was completely taken aback because I had studied

[1:03:41 - 1:03:50] ▶

as a terraca and in the occult my whole life since I was a kid, you know, 17, 18. My older brother

[1:03:50 - 1:03:55] ▶

was a huge influence on me in that remark. I mean, my brother older brother was a very devout

[1:03:55 - 1:03:59] ▶

Catholic, but he was also a very highly developed spiritually and

[1:03:59 - 1:04:05] ▶

and so he would turn me on to a lot of things. I was in a Greek mystery schools, Roman mystery schools,

[1:04:05 - 1:04:13] ▶

L.U. Sinyin mysteries, you know, Western mysticism, Eastern mysticism, things along those lines,

[1:04:14 - 1:04:20] ▶

German romanicism, you know, which has a lot of mysticism involved in it. So this concept,

[1:04:20 - 1:04:26] ▶

you know, of high-stranges wasn't, wasn't new to me, but when he explained me what it was and he

[1:04:26 - 1:04:32] ▶

wrote down a list of all the books I should read and they were almost mostly jockefulay, right?

[1:04:32 - 1:04:36] ▶

Right. So that's what I did. Early 90s, maybe 91, 92, when this happened and then it wasn't until

[1:04:36 - 1:04:45] ▶

a much later, 2014 maybe when our full story came out and it came out to the military and that's

[1:04:46 - 1:04:56] ▶

how one thing led to another. And yeah, and not to fry too much, but was there was there like an

[1:04:56 - 1:05:02] ▶

entity that you guys saw during the war? I can't see anything I did. And it was it was it's typical of

[1:05:02 - 1:05:09] ▶

of what they weren't grace. They were definitely not correct, but they were they were there. Yeah,

[1:05:09 - 1:05:17] ▶

right, right. And it's funny. I don't even like talking about it because it's

[1:05:17 - 1:05:23] ▶

and I remember when Jacques came to my house and you know he spent the whole day with us and

[1:05:24 - 1:05:29] ▶

was just a lovely, lovely man. And I said, look, I said, you know, I don't know, I don't know,

[1:05:30 - 1:05:42] ▶

I don't think I'm crazy. I said, but I know what I saw. I said, you know, I'm laying in bed,

[1:05:42 - 1:05:49] ▶

my eyes open up and I see this, these entities. I said that it was this real, as me talking to you

[1:05:49 - 1:05:58] ▶

and I said, it wasn't like I'm dreaming. I knew it would hit in a godjick state. My wife's a

[1:05:58 - 1:06:03] ▶

psychologist. I knew what hit in a godjick state was. I know what liminal stakes are. I mean,

[1:06:03 - 1:06:07] ▶

these are concepts that were very familiar to me. They're definitely not there. I mean, it was

[1:06:07 - 1:06:11] ▶

not bad at all. Right. And then you know, and then there was this other series of stuff that went

[1:06:11 - 1:06:16] ▶

on and then next thing you know, is seven o'clock in the morning, my eyes are just pop up and I'm like,

[1:06:16 - 1:06:22] ▶

you know, what the hell. And then there were the physical marks. I mean, and these were not,

[1:06:23 - 1:06:30] ▶

you know, little tiny things. These are these are, there's blood, right? So I'm like, holy shit.

[1:06:30 - 1:06:35] ▶

So, but it wasn't until I actually spoke with them and then I couldn't identify

[1:06:36 - 1:06:42] ▶

when it went through the literature, I never was able to identify the type of entities and wasn't

[1:06:42 - 1:06:49] ▶

until I read a Harper's article by Leo Sprinkle, Dr. Leo Sprinkle, I guess we just passed away not

[1:06:49 - 1:06:54] ▶

too long ago. Yeah, yeah. Where some, yeah, these two women had this, saw the same thing I saw.

[1:06:54 - 1:07:00] ▶

And then called Caller, a lovely man, explained to me, he named them, you know, for me. And he

[1:07:01 - 1:07:08] ▶

said, oh, this is this is who they are. And he said this, he said, these are very rare. He said,

[1:07:08 - 1:07:14] ▶

the only thing we've only been seeing, I think three times or four times in the literature, you can,

[1:07:14 - 1:07:20] ▶

you can find the answer. Right. That's about as far as I'm going to go with that. So, yeah. Okay. And

[1:07:20 - 1:07:24] ▶

just a yes or no on this then it was there. Was there like a telepathic component?

[1:07:24 - 1:07:30] ▶

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, you say that.

[1:07:30 - 1:07:33] ▶

There, the only, it was no fear at all. But I was unable to move. Yeah. And then there was one

[1:07:36 - 1:07:51] ▶

element of it where I was standing with my wife. And I felt very strongly, something behind me,

[1:07:51 - 1:08:02] ▶

an entity behind me, with sort of a, you know, guardian type kind of thing going on. But,

[1:08:02 - 1:08:10] ▶

you know, and these kind of experiences and for a lot of your listeners out there who's had these,

[1:08:12 - 1:08:18] ▶

and I remember Chris Blitz, I had them too, and you get these and a lot of people come to some type

[1:08:18 - 1:08:27] ▶

of accommodation over time period. Right. Right. They look at it and they say, okay, the initial horror

[1:08:27 - 1:08:33] ▶

of it, you know, rubs off. And then somehow, like for Chris Blitz, so it morphed into this new way of

[1:08:33 - 1:08:41] ▶

seeing the world. And, and, and he has become a healer, a deeply, deeply spiritual man. He was a

[1:08:41 - 1:08:50] ▶

deeply religious man, but now he's a deeply spiritual man, which I find much more fascinating.

[1:08:50 - 1:08:56] ▶

And his love has only grown. Me, on the other hand, nah, not quite. I haven't, I haven't come to

[1:08:58 - 1:09:07] ▶

terms with it. And probably because, you know, I sort of grew up a little rough and tumble and

[1:09:07 - 1:09:11] ▶

it's like, you know, I, I, I look at this and it's bad enough we're born on this planet

[1:09:11 - 1:09:18] ▶

without an instruction booklet, right. You're just left here and it's like you're looking around

[1:09:19 - 1:09:24] ▶

and you have no clue why you're here. You have no clue what purpose this is. All you have,

[1:09:27 - 1:09:35] ▶

I think, is this innate moral or ethical center, I think which everybody has. It's maybe a

[1:09:35 - 1:09:42] ▶

sociopath or a psychopath. And I think you have that to rely on. You know, you don't want to kill

[1:09:42 - 1:09:46] ▶

anybody, you don't want to, you know, do anything. You sort of know what's bad and what's not bad.

[1:09:46 - 1:09:50] ▶

You just sort of feel that innately. It's almost instinctual like an animal would have

[1:09:50 - 1:09:54] ▶

instincts. And then you know that your, your perceptions are limited.

[1:09:54 - 1:09:58] ▶

Well, you find that out later on that, you know, and then you see things and you don't know what

[1:10:00 - 1:10:04] ▶

they're all about. And they're sort of sitting here and you know, looking at all this stuff.

[1:10:04 - 1:10:08] ▶

And it's sort of makes me mad. And I was explaining this to Robert Hastings, you know,

[1:10:08 - 1:10:15] ▶

Robert Hastings, you know, UFOs and Newtons. Great guy.

[1:10:15 - 1:10:17] ▶

Poetry smart guy. I always tell people, if you want to read one seminal book, you know,

[1:10:18 - 1:10:23] ▶

I mean, read UFOs and Newtons. And he had another book out Confessions, which is just

[1:10:23 - 1:10:27] ▶

wonderful too. Yeah, he's an experiencer. Yeah. Yeah, he's an experiencer too. But I always tell him,

[1:10:27 - 1:10:33] ▶

I think I said, you know, and I was at a conference a few months ago, six months ago, out West,

[1:10:33 - 1:10:39] ▶

and with about 20 of us. And it was a quiet little place with, you know, scholars and everything

[1:10:39 - 1:10:48] ▶

we're talking about this. And I said, it's, it's, it's extremely problematic for me that

[1:10:48 - 1:10:58] ▶

this phenomenon doesn't introduce itself. It will come to you. It will tease you,

[1:10:58 - 1:11:06] ▶

could jol you, screw around with your head, tell you wonderful things lie to you,

[1:11:06 - 1:11:13] ▶

tell you, you know, that you have a special purpose. And I said, but it doesn't introduce

[1:11:15 - 1:11:20] ▶

itself to your parents. Metaphorically speaking, it doesn't come out. It just doesn't say this is

[1:11:20 - 1:11:29] ▶

who we are or who it is. And so where does that really lead you? What do you, what can you say about

[1:11:29 - 1:11:36] ▶

it? Now, you can, you can, again, anthropomorphically speaking, you can make up all this kind of stuff.

[1:11:36 - 1:11:42] ▶

You can say like people do about God, you know, about 20 million, you know, a Russian sty during

[1:11:42 - 1:11:47] ▶

World War II, six billion Jews, where the hell is God? Oh, God works in mysterious ways.

[1:11:47 - 1:11:53] ▶

We can't, we can't hold God accountable to this. He works in mysterious ways. Well, this is the same

[1:11:53 - 1:11:59] ▶

shit, you know, the phenomenon isn't telling you shit. And it's like, so, I mean, so I look at this.

[1:11:59 - 1:12:06] ▶

And so when I get these young kids, you know, they call me and they'll say, like, you know, I miss

[1:12:06 - 1:12:09] ▶

a son of the aunt, I want to get involved and, you know, I want to get involved in it. I said,

[1:12:09 - 1:12:14] ▶

it's a one way street. It is a classic wilderness of mirrors. It is Alice's rabbit hole. And I

[1:12:14 - 1:12:20] ▶

said, you can't, you can dive as deep as you want to dive in there. I said, it's fascinating.

[1:12:20 - 1:12:25] ▶

It's a lot of fun. I said, you're not going to get anywhere. I said, good job. Save your money.

[1:12:25 - 1:12:30] ▶

You know, yeah. Well, I think too, right? If you're somebody who who is an experienced or has an

[1:12:30 - 1:12:36] ▶

experience, you're pretty much on the ride, man. I mean, you're in for keeps pretty much. It's,

[1:12:36 - 1:12:40] ▶

you know, kind of hard to turn back afterwards. Well, yeah, it is. And I'm not saying, like,

[1:12:40 - 1:12:45] ▶

you know, you can tell by the books, books behind me. I'll show you around. I mean, it's a world of

[1:12:45 - 1:12:49] ▶

wall. I read them, I read them all. And, you know, it's not that I don't pay attention to it. I can't

[1:12:49 - 1:12:55] ▶

walk away from it. And I most people who have these experiences cannot walk away from it. All I'm

[1:12:55 - 1:12:59] ▶

saying is don't expect anything. And, and don't, and particularly from the government. And, you

[1:12:59 - 1:13:06] ▶

know, the reason we started TTS is because we wanted to figure this out privately because it is

[1:13:06 - 1:13:12] ▶

your, your problem. And it's my problem. And it's everybody else's

[1:13:12 - 1:13:16] ▶

experience that had these experiences. And we have to do that. I don't want to rely on the

[1:13:16 - 1:13:20] ▶

government to tell me. And I've told this a very senior government people. I said, you're never

[1:13:20 - 1:13:25] ▶

going to come out with this because you don't know what it is. And you can't explain it. And this

[1:13:25 - 1:13:29] ▶

goes back to the Soppertee Principle, right? This is wonderful article that was written by

[1:13:29 - 1:13:33] ▶

Alexander Wenton. I came over the other gentleman's name from Ohio State. And I'm basically saying,

[1:13:33 - 1:13:38] ▶

you really expect the president of the United States to come out and say, well, you know, we

[1:13:38 - 1:13:42] ▶

discovered that there's an entity out there. Or there's some kind of a technology out here. We

[1:13:42 - 1:13:46] ▶

don't think it's human. But yet, it has the ability to control our lives. It knows everything about

[1:13:46 - 1:13:52] ▶

us. It can lie to us. It can, you know, change our reality. It will. He's supposed to, his job is

[1:13:52 - 1:13:59] ▶

to protect us, right? Military's job is to protect us. Well, if he's telling you that,

[1:13:59 - 1:14:03] ▶

your everything's wide open. Religious scholars don't want to get every religious people, I should

[1:14:05 - 1:14:09] ▶

say, don't want to go there either because we're scotted all this. You know, I talk about the great

[1:14:09 - 1:14:14] ▶

chain of being that old medieval concept that they had where there was God, the angels, man, and

[1:14:14 - 1:14:20] ▶

then they would go down the list, you know, chimpanzees, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, down to the

[1:14:20 - 1:14:24] ▶

smallest organism. Well, you know, and, you know, and even though that's been proven to be sort of a,

[1:14:24 - 1:14:30] ▶

you know, a very simplistic concept, it was something that it was a tradition. I mean, people

[1:14:30 - 1:14:35] ▶

believe it to the very day that there is this, you know, taxonomy, you know, where you have this.

[1:14:35 - 1:14:39] ▶

But if that's the case, well, the phenomena's got to fit in there somewhere. And it sure is how

[1:14:40 - 1:14:44] ▶

above us, you know, and it might be part of something angelic or demonic, I don't really know,

[1:14:44 - 1:14:51] ▶

or demonic, as Patrick Harper would say, we don't know where it fits in.

[1:14:51 - 1:14:56] ▶

Right. And just actually speaking to that, because I, you know, I think that's a very relevant

[1:14:57 - 1:15:02] ▶

conversation. And again, could we even ourselves or as a society define what an angel or demon is,

[1:15:02 - 1:15:10] ▶

you know, we have the ideas of what the interpretation of that is, but on a literal level, right?

[1:15:10 - 1:15:15] ▶

But do you think we're talking about a singular phenomenon or actually phenomena where

[1:15:16 - 1:15:22] ▶

actually we have these different experiences and activities that could be different intelligences?

[1:15:23 - 1:15:29] ▶

You know, I from the sort of the John Alexander school, I mean, he, I saw a presentation he did

[1:15:30 - 1:15:35] ▶

once and the last slide he put up was all these different types of s i, right? And then you have

[1:15:35 - 1:15:43] ▶

UAPs, UFOs, and then you have telekinesis, you know, psychokinetics, you have clairvoyance,

[1:15:43 - 1:15:49] ▶

remote viewing, you have paras, you know, paranormal phenomenon, you have all kinds of stuff.

[1:15:49 - 1:15:55] ▶

You know, and he had them all sort of group there. And, and, and, you know, his thing is they're

[1:15:55 - 1:15:59] ▶

probably all related and I agree. I mean, they're all probably all related. They're all part of

[1:15:59 - 1:16:04] ▶

something, whether it's extra dimensional, whether it's actually as like Jeff, Jeff Kripal,

[1:16:04 - 1:16:11] ▶

the religious college, Jeff Kripal, and Whitley Strieber, it wrote a wonderful book called Super

[1:16:11 - 1:16:15] ▶

Natural about this and, and there's probably dozens of quotes in there which I absolutely love,

[1:16:15 - 1:16:21] ▶

but they talk about this. They talk about the idea of this actually being not supernatural,

[1:16:21 - 1:16:27] ▶

but actually a part of our environment and that we're just not capable of. Our brains aren't

[1:16:27 - 1:16:32] ▶

capable of experiencing right now. We may be able to maybe are when our brains evolve a little

[1:16:32 - 1:16:37] ▶

bit more. And maybe we're seeing people like you, you know, who are slightly maybe more attuned

[1:16:37 - 1:16:44] ▶

or more developed that you're picking up on this, people like Melinda, you know, that that have

[1:16:44 - 1:16:50] ▶

a way to see this, but they can't really make sense of it yet. But nevertheless, most people

[1:16:51 - 1:16:57] ▶

don't have this. I remember how telling me once anybody can do remote viewing, he said, but,

[1:16:57 - 1:17:03] ▶

he said there are some people that are really, really good, like a really good ice skater, right?

[1:17:03 - 1:17:07] ▶

And there are some people that could do it, but they're not really that good. So, you know,

[1:17:08 - 1:17:13] ▶

there's Ingoswan and Joe Magonical, you know, up up there. And then there's some people down

[1:17:13 - 1:17:18] ▶

at the bottom, you know, so it's a real thing. And I was actually at, you know, at CIA when they

[1:17:18 - 1:17:25] ▶

canceled the program. And I was actually, you know, with the meeting that was going on with

[1:17:25 - 1:17:31] ▶

the council of the program, I was there. And I remember talking to the guy who had it canceled.

[1:17:31 - 1:17:37] ▶

I mean, he's a good friend of mine, very senior guy in the agency at the time because

[1:17:37 - 1:17:41] ▶

because I said, oh, I knew about it. And I said, well, why did you cancel it? And he goes, well,

[1:17:42 - 1:17:48] ▶

he said, Jim is, it's not because he didn't work. It worked. He said, we couldn't explain it. He said,

[1:17:48 - 1:17:54] ▶

how do we use it as an intelligence in an intelligence assessment? He said, if we didn't know how we got

[1:17:54 - 1:18:00] ▶

it. So you can't go to the president, you know, and I mean, our national security council and say,

[1:18:00 - 1:18:04] ▶

yeah, we know the Russians are building this particular submarine. And this is what it looks like.

[1:18:05 - 1:18:08] ▶

And it's over here. And I go, great. Is that human source? And you get deaf from that aspire?

[1:18:08 - 1:18:13] ▶

And you get deaf from, no, no, we got it from some guy who went out of the silver cord. And,

[1:18:13 - 1:18:18] ▶

you know, you saw this and his mind's, you can't do that. You know, so they canceled. And they canceled

[1:18:18 - 1:18:25] ▶

it after 20 years. So I have the program, you know, they take very, very seriously. Now did it go away?

[1:18:25 - 1:18:32] ▶

I doubt it. I mean, I think CAA probably gave it to another intelligence agency to do, you know,

[1:18:32 - 1:18:37] ▶

which happens all the time, actually. So yeah, yeah. And getting to, you know, you know, contact and stuff.

[1:18:38 - 1:18:45] ▶

I, you know, I've been involved with something called CE5. And when I say CE5, I'm not talking

[1:18:48 - 1:18:54] ▶

specifically, you know, everything that Dr. Greer says or preaches or teaches about it, because

[1:18:54 - 1:18:59] ▶

actually there was a group in South America in 1974 doing the exact same thing, you know, similar

[1:18:59 - 1:19:06] ▶

protocols, similar methodology, which basically comes down to consciousness and intense, you know,

[1:19:06 - 1:19:13] ▶

intention, maybe concentration, and, you know, whether alone or especially with groups of people

[1:19:13 - 1:19:20] ▶

coming together to do that kind of work, similar to what was done recently, actually at the Monroe

[1:19:20 - 1:19:25] ▶

Institute. So what are your, what are your thoughts on the idea of maybe I can say CE5, but really

[1:19:25 - 1:19:32] ▶

contact and consciousness with UAP? Yeah, that's a really good question. You know, I'm of a mixed

[1:19:33 - 1:19:40] ▶

mixed emotions about it, mixed mind about it. If I think it's fine to engage yourself in that,

[1:19:41 - 1:19:49] ▶

if you're very well-tethered to the ground. In other words, if you're psychologically

[1:19:49 - 1:19:54] ▶

stapling, stable, and you have a strong, you know, you know, family connections and you have strong

[1:19:54 - 1:20:03] ▶

friends and you have a really strong psychological profile. I think the idea of going out and experimenting

[1:20:03 - 1:20:10] ▶

in one half, it was long that you can be pulled back, you know, into this familiar territory, you're fine.

[1:20:10 - 1:20:16] ▶

As an old hippie who's experimented with more drugs than I cared a name, before I joined the agency,

[1:20:17 - 1:20:25] ▶

they had a big problem with me when I came in because of my quote unquote drug problem, but anyway,

[1:20:25 - 1:20:29] ▶

you know, I can tell you that many, many times, you know, when people go out,

[1:20:32 - 1:20:37] ▶

experimenting with psychotropic drugs and psychedelic drugs and I would say, you know,

[1:20:39 - 1:20:45] ▶

eventually most of the time it's, it's, people come back and find if they're with people that are

[1:20:45 - 1:20:49] ▶

guiding them in one half, you, but there are a lot of times they come back broken and they become

[1:20:49 - 1:20:54] ▶

disassociated. So I would say to you and to your listeners, I mean, there's, there's,

[1:20:54 - 1:21:01] ▶

there are some horror stories about the remote viewing program,

[1:21:02 - 1:21:06] ▶

which I won't get into, but you have to be very, very careful.

[1:21:09 - 1:21:15] ▶

When you do that, we know, one of the things we do know, there are certain variables, you know,

[1:21:16 - 1:21:22] ▶

that you sort of pick up as truisms when you talk about this, so we do know that meditation and

[1:21:22 - 1:21:29] ▶

intention, as like you said, can attract this phenomenon. But the only issue is,

[1:21:29 - 1:21:39] ▶

you know, I like to view the, I like to view the phenomena through the light of the, the gym.

[1:21:40 - 1:21:50] ▶

Because the gym are essentially, you know, people made of, you know, plasma type kind of

[1:21:52 - 1:22:00] ▶

fire, you know, with the Arabic cultural talk about it. But they're known to be, you know,

[1:22:00 - 1:22:05] ▶

to share some of the human characteristics in the sense that they're emotional and they can

[1:22:06 - 1:22:10] ▶

be, they can be tricksters, they can be, some are not very nice and some are very, very nice

[1:22:10 - 1:22:15] ▶

and all this kind of stuff. So I have to look at it like that. So, but when you're, you know,

[1:22:15 - 1:22:20] ▶

going out into that unknown, undiscovered country, as Shakespeare said,

[1:22:20 - 1:22:25] ▶

and you're having these experience and you come close to it, or you attract it,

[1:22:27 - 1:22:32] ▶

you know, you don't have any control of what you're attracting. You can go out with the best

[1:22:33 - 1:22:39] ▶

interest, the most pure thoughts, and attract something that maybe isn't, isn't going to be very

[1:22:39 - 1:22:46] ▶

good for you or very healthy for you, psychologically or physically. The proof of that is in skin walker.

[1:22:46 - 1:22:51] ▶

I mean, you know, there's skin walker classified, and there's skin walker unclassified. But let's

[1:22:51 - 1:22:57] ▶

tell you, I saw, you know, some of the effects of skin walker on some of these guys, my friends,

[1:22:57 - 1:23:04] ▶

not good at all, and both psychologically and physically. When you use a Ouija board, when you,

[1:23:05 - 1:23:14] ▶

when you get into any kind of a trance, particularly with a lot of people and you attract something,

[1:23:14 - 1:23:20] ▶

you know, it could be, it could be a neutral kind of thing, it could be fun, but sometimes it's

[1:23:21 - 1:23:29] ▶

not fun. And, you know, so I always say this proceed with caution. Yeah, yeah, I'm actually writing

[1:23:29 - 1:23:35] ▶

an article on what we call sometimes contact work, because I think it's important. I think it's

[1:23:35 - 1:23:41] ▶

important actually to reframe it, especially with what's going on now, and kind of, you know,

[1:23:41 - 1:23:47] ▶

again, another, another framework to look at it. And then again, I actually, in the article,

[1:23:47 - 1:23:51] ▶

I'm actually going to include a disclaimer, kind of touching on some of the elements that you did.

[1:23:51 - 1:23:56] ▶

But generally speaking, you know, again, and I'm not speaking about skin walker in this,

[1:23:57 - 1:24:03] ▶

in this way, I'm talking more about the contact work where groups of people go out with, again,

[1:24:03 - 1:24:08] ▶

positive intentions. You know, a lot of times it seems, the contact seems to reflect the individual's

[1:24:08 - 1:24:15] ▶

participating. And again, usually, I mean, this is why I think a disclaimer is needed in a

[1:24:15 - 1:24:22] ▶

mature conversation about contact is that if generally when people get together that are,

[1:24:22 - 1:24:30] ▶

you know, of a sound mind and go out with positive intentions, they usually have a, like, what can

[1:24:30 - 1:24:36] ▶

be considered a positive contact experience, you know, whether they're ready for it or not, right?

[1:24:36 - 1:24:42] ▶

And how that's going to affect them, you know, that's another part of the conversation story.

[1:24:42 - 1:24:47] ▶

But I will say that generally speaking, the contact seems to be at least benign or positive when

[1:24:48 - 1:24:57] ▶

when your your intention is kind of clear. And you know, again, if we can use the word pure,

[1:24:57 - 1:25:04] ▶

it seems to be reflective in that in that way. You know, yeah, I mean, yeah,

[1:25:04 - 1:25:08] ▶

yeah, actually, there's a there's a body of thought that talks about that that is indeed reflective.

[1:25:08 - 1:25:15] ▶

And that, you know, good attracts good evil attracts evil and what have you. My point in all this is

[1:25:16 - 1:25:22] ▶

though, you know, as a CIA officer, you know, when I would do an operation and the operation involved

[1:25:22 - 1:25:30] ▶

dangerous activity. And I consider contact dangerous activity because you, you know, and you don't

[1:25:30 - 1:25:40] ▶

know what you're walking into. You just don't you have no idea what this is. And, yeah, and though,

[1:25:40 - 1:25:46] ▶

you know, to me, it's always like the 80% factor. If I can say to my boss, I have an 80% chance of

[1:25:46 - 1:25:53] ▶

success that I am going to, you know, accomplish my mission and come back, you know, without anybody

[1:25:53 - 1:25:59] ▶

getting killed or hurt or anything like that and nobody, nobody knowing we did what we did.

[1:25:59 - 1:26:03] ▶

I wanted to give that a shot. Yeah. But, but I think in this particular case, you know, in these

[1:26:04 - 1:26:10] ▶

cases, you know, it could be 50, 50 sometimes is 60, 40. I don't know. But, but I just said, I always

[1:26:10 - 1:26:18] ▶

say proceed with caution. And, and, and let me tell you something else. I mean, you know, I, I,

[1:26:18 - 1:26:23] ▶

some of the serious researchers that I've spoken to on at a very classified level are very wary of

[1:26:23 - 1:26:37] ▶

contact. And, and, like I said, you hear some horror stories. And, so for amateurs that are out there

[1:26:37 - 1:26:51] ▶

that are, again, not tethered to the ground very well and are trying to do this on their own. I,

[1:26:51 - 1:26:58] ▶

I always say, you know, just proceed with caution and, you know, and, and, and, and the other thing is,

[1:26:58 - 1:27:04] ▶

what do you expect to get out of this? I mean, you know, if you know anything about mysticism or

[1:27:04 - 1:27:09] ▶

Christian mysticism or Eastern mysticism, these monks and priests and, you know, nuns would devote

[1:27:09 - 1:27:16] ▶

their lives to achieving a, a, a place where they were able to touch with they would consider the

[1:27:16 - 1:27:27] ▶

divine momentarily. None of it was ever like constant, right? I mean, there have been, there have

[1:27:27 - 1:27:34] ▶

been some gurus that supposedly who live in a sense of enlightenment. You know, but where they're

[1:27:34 - 1:27:41] ▶

in touch with the divine or they, they understand the divine and the divine comes into them. But they,

[1:27:41 - 1:27:46] ▶

they really don't know what that is. All they know is it's about love, right? And, and they know

[1:27:46 - 1:27:49] ▶

it's out there. It's about love. But, um, if you can expect, if you, if you, that's what you're

[1:27:49 - 1:27:57] ▶

expecting, um, and you want to try that, I think it's a noble, noble cause. But if you go in there not

[1:27:57 - 1:28:03] ▶

knowing, you know, what you want and, and, you know, inviting something, you know, this,

[1:28:03 - 1:28:10] ▶

something to come into you. Um, there's quite a bit of, you know, I'm not, like I said, I'm not a

[1:28:10 - 1:28:16] ▶

religious person, but, um, you know, there's this wonderful book that was written called Usage

[1:28:16 - 1:28:21] ▶

to the Devil. And it was written by Malachi father Malachi Martin. You may, may or not heard of them.

[1:28:21 - 1:28:26] ▶

He passed away a long time ago, but he was, uh, he was a Jesuit, a couple PhDs, you know, and

[1:28:26 - 1:28:32] ▶

rumor had it that he was in charge of the Vatican's Intel service and what they would call their

[1:28:32 - 1:28:35] ▶

Intel service. But he had, um, uh, the Pope allowed him to, um, um, uh, you know, they take

[1:28:35 - 1:28:44] ▶

vows at Chastity, Poverty and obedience and the Pope allowed him to sort of us resign, uh, but he

[1:28:44 - 1:28:51] ▶

had to keep Chastity and poverty. Uh, he had to keep those two vows, but he was able to disavow,

[1:28:51 - 1:28:58] ▶

you know, be against, but he wrote a number of books, but he wrote a book called Hostage to the Devil.

[1:28:58 - 1:29:02] ▶

Now, there's a very, very Jesuit, which extremely bright people. So, yeah, and, and, but that book

[1:29:02 - 1:29:06] ▶

scared the living hell out of me. I mean, I could read a chapter at a time and I would go back to

[1:29:06 - 1:29:10] ▶

it once a month, it was so scary. Um, but he talked about possession and he talked about the concept

[1:29:10 - 1:29:16] ▶

and the idea of possession and everything from, you know, uh, you know, sort of minor things of

[1:29:16 - 1:29:20] ▶

possession to, um, um, what they call perfect possession or full possession and what that actually

[1:29:20 - 1:29:27] ▶

entails. And, you know, even though it was, he talked about it in the guys of religious dogma,

[1:29:27 - 1:29:32] ▶

what he was really talking about was entities that are invited in. And once they're invited in,

[1:29:32 - 1:29:40] ▶

you know, sometimes it takes a hell of a lot to get rid of them and sometimes if you accept

[1:29:40 - 1:29:45] ▶

what they offer, you're not going to get rid of it. They actually take over. So, you know, do I

[1:29:46 - 1:29:51] ▶

believe that? Yeah, to a certain extent, but if I believe it enough not to try it, let's put it

[1:29:51 - 1:29:56] ▶

that way. Yeah. Yeah. No, but and just for, for clarity to the contact work is, is less about

[1:29:56 - 1:30:02] ▶

inviting entities in, but more for an interaction. But again, right, you, I understand the caution and,

[1:30:02 - 1:30:08] ▶

and kind of you're not sure what you're going to get, right? Um, but I actually forgot to ask you

[1:30:08 - 1:30:14] ▶

before. Um, you, you had a lude to an experience or study that you may have been a part of. Um,

[1:30:14 - 1:30:20] ▶

is there anything you can say about that? No, it's a study, study started a while back before I was

[1:30:21 - 1:30:28] ▶

involved in it. My wife and I were involved in it. It's grown a little bit. It was smaller.

[1:30:28 - 1:30:34] ▶

It, it involves, um, it's a good deal of it is medical, psychological, and, um, biological,

[1:30:36 - 1:30:46] ▶

DNA is being studied, um, physical characteristics. Um, by the end of the medical issues associated with it.

[1:30:46 - 1:30:57] ▶

Um, the people that are involved are initially it was, uh, former CIA, BIA, JSOC, um, uh, and, and, I think some FBI

[1:30:57 - 1:31:12] ▶

officers usually at a senior level, um, who ran into this or had experiences like this.

[1:31:13 - 1:31:21] ▶

Uh, and then, uh, so they're studying, you know, the commonalities, different commonalities.

[1:31:22 - 1:31:26] ▶

Uh, the problem with it is it sounds fascinating, but it's also sort of sad. Uh, we've lost some people,

[1:31:27 - 1:31:34] ▶

um, and this is why I offer caution, uh, and many through suicide. Um, the, the, um,

[1:31:35 - 1:31:42] ▶

uh, the whole concept of contagion. I know that skin walker, I mean, calm Kelliger talked about,

[1:31:43 - 1:31:50] ▶

and talks about it, um, the psycho, and nap, George nap, who's, this wonderful guy talk about it.

[1:31:50 - 1:31:56] ▶

Um, you know, it sounds interesting, but it's not, I mean, it's frightening to a lot of people.

[1:31:57 - 1:32:01] ▶

Um, and once again, um, you know, uh, if you're walking into an area like skin walker, where

[1:32:01 - 1:32:07] ▶

clearly the elements that are there, um, whether you want to call them elementals or, what have you,

[1:32:08 - 1:32:14] ▶

these aren't naturally friendly types, um, you know, where you have your typical

[1:32:16 - 1:32:20] ▶

poltergeist, you know, or, or ghost or something like that, maybe throwing stuff around or maybe

[1:32:21 - 1:32:26] ▶

moving things around, ha, ha, ha, funny. But there is, there is an aspect to it that I've seen,

[1:32:26 - 1:32:31] ▶

that is not funny, and it is, you know, very, very, it's a matter of fact, but, I mean,

[1:32:32 - 1:32:36] ▶

we were asked why my wife and I seem to be the healthiest people in the group, even though my wife

[1:32:36 - 1:32:41] ▶

has suffered, you know, some medical medical issues, um, psychologically, we seem to be okay.

[1:32:41 - 1:32:46] ▶

Um, but, um, you know, it's, um, it's, you know, and I hate to sound like a, um, you know,

[1:32:47 - 1:32:56] ▶

um, you know, like, you know, I'm overly pessimistic or something, I'm not, but, um, you know,

[1:32:56 - 1:33:05] ▶

I'm almost 70 years old, I'd be 70 in a couple of weeks, I mean, I, it's like what I've seen,

[1:33:05 - 1:33:09] ▶

I just tell people, just be very, very careful and, you know, proceed with caution.

[1:33:10 - 1:33:14] ▶

Um, uh, if you read John Keel, and you know, Keel will tell you exactly, exactly that. I mean,

[1:33:15 - 1:33:21] ▶

Keel in, uh, I think it was Operation Trojan Horse, uh, basically believed this is all just a

[1:33:21 - 1:33:28] ▶

cosmic put on. I mean, this is just, uh, you know, a big, a big ething joke by this phenomenon on us.

[1:33:28 - 1:33:35] ▶

Well, again, and I think it's important that, you know, whether we agree or disagree that we have

[1:33:36 - 1:33:40] ▶

these mature conversations, but I can, and take in other people's perspectives, you know, hopefully

[1:33:40 - 1:33:45] ▶

try to have a mature conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Uh, but at the same time, I mean,

[1:33:45 - 1:33:54] ▶

you know, I mean, you know, like I said, you look at a guy like Chris Plexo to him. This is all

[1:33:54 - 1:33:58] ▶

about love, you know, about love. And, and he, and the interesting thing about blood,

[1:33:59 - 1:34:04] ▶

Christopher bloodsoe and the family is there, you know, there's been some healings too. So

[1:34:04 - 1:34:09] ▶

where, when you make of that, yeah, absolutely. I've seen some of them. I mean, now I know some of

[1:34:09 - 1:34:14] ▶

the people he, he's, he's healed. Um, I look at him as a healer. I mean, uh, no question, uh,

[1:34:14 - 1:34:20] ▶

that in his particular instance, he was cured of a very debilitating disease. It probably would have

[1:34:20 - 1:34:25] ▶

killed him and, um, and yet given a gift. Uh, and yet in the beginning, it was horrifically terrifying.

[1:34:25 - 1:34:33] ▶

Right. And it morphed into this whole completely, you know, different, different thing. Now,

[1:34:33 - 1:34:40] ▶

did he choose, I mean, did he make the conscious decision to, you know, take lemons and turn them

[1:34:40 - 1:34:48] ▶

in the lemonade, um, which is the kind of guy he is actually anyway. So, um, or did the entities

[1:34:48 - 1:34:54] ▶

himself, you know, quote unquote, good entities and, um, basically gave him a blessing as opposed to

[1:34:54 - 1:35:01] ▶

a curse. My point in all of this is, is I know specifically,

[1:35:02 - 1:35:08] ▶

factually, people who have been cursed, capital C, by this. Yeah. And we have no idea how.

[1:35:09 - 1:35:18] ▶

So I'm saying, so people proceed with caution, you know, and again, I'm not, you know, I'm

[1:35:20 - 1:35:25] ▶

I'm in which Stephen Greer, you know, talked about, uh, you know, TTS, you know, TTSA is being this,

[1:35:25 - 1:35:31] ▶

you know, we're poo pooing, you know, you know, saying the aliens are bad. No, no, we're not

[1:35:31 - 1:35:35] ▶

absolutely not. And when we're basically saying, uh, the military needs been followed because

[1:35:35 - 1:35:40] ▶

until we know exactly what it is, it's, you know, that's their job, right, protecting

[1:35:40 - 1:35:44] ▶

the United States. So it's a national security concern. Does everybody in TTS, you know, believe

[1:35:44 - 1:35:49] ▶

that the entities are bad? Absolutely not. I mean, we think that that probably, I mean, you know,

[1:35:49 - 1:35:55] ▶

if they've been around since prehistory, right? And, you know, they would have wiped us out by

[1:35:55 - 1:36:00] ▶

then if they were that bad. So it's not an existential issue, right? But nevertheless, I mean, you know,

[1:36:00 - 1:36:05] ▶

we may not be equipped psychologically and mentally to deal with that kind of power that comes

[1:36:07 - 1:36:15] ▶

into you when you have that. And I'm saying, you know, yeah, yeah. And, um, regarding the study,

[1:36:15 - 1:36:22] ▶

that you were part of, is that, is that a private study or is it a governmental study?

[1:36:23 - 1:36:28] ▶

Um, it was both for a while. Um, I'm not sure. Well,

[1:36:29 - 1:36:38] ▶

I think it's, I think it's probably both now. Yeah. And, and, and, I mean, I guess, I mean,

[1:36:38 - 1:36:48] ▶

is it, what makes it a governmental and or private study? Like, what is it, is it just that the

[1:36:52 - 1:36:57] ▶

funding determines that or is it the funding? The funding always determines it. Um, there are,

[1:36:57 - 1:37:04] ▶

are aspects to it that are funded privately and their aspects that are funded publicly.

[1:37:05 - 1:37:09] ▶

Right. And as part of it, I guess,

[1:37:09 - 1:37:11] ▶

private slash government because operationally. No, actually, the reason why it's, it's private and

[1:37:12 - 1:37:18] ▶

the reason why it's, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's not classified as much as it's

[1:37:18 - 1:37:23] ▶

hyper restrictive. Right. So, I mean, I mean, there are papers being written on it now. I mean,

[1:37:23 - 1:37:29] ▶

it will come become public. Um, I'm sure. And, but they're not, but the, the authors may be

[1:37:29 - 1:37:35] ▶

public, but the, you, you'll never know who the people that were involved. Right. Right.

[1:37:35 - 1:37:41] ▶

Or because of HIPAA, you know, and is that something just that you and other people are working on

[1:37:41 - 1:37:46] ▶

or, or to the stars actually involved with that? No, two stars isn't involved with that at all.

[1:37:46 - 1:37:50] ▶

Okay. And I'm not involved at it at all, except as, you know, it's being a very peripheral

[1:37:51 - 1:37:55] ▶

member of it, you know, in one-half you. But, um, now, our only involvement with the government

[1:37:55 - 1:38:01] ▶

and TTS is with the Army, uh, Futures Command. Um, we have a cradle with them and, uh, we have a piece

[1:38:01 - 1:38:08] ▶

of, uh, a purported, um, UFO material from a crash. Um, I can tell you that the military

[1:38:08 - 1:38:17] ▶

visited us three separate times, not twice. I'm sorry, twice came to our, you know, our offices and,

[1:38:17 - 1:38:23] ▶

both times were pretty impressive what it was. Um, they're studying it now. They're studying it

[1:38:24 - 1:38:30] ▶

now in concert with a defense contractor, trying to mimic some of the characteristics of it,

[1:38:30 - 1:38:35] ▶

uh, as sort of like with, uh, Chris, I mean with the, uh, Jockele and Gary Nolan are doing with

[1:38:36 - 1:38:42] ▶

their, their materials, um, that they found, you know, with, uh, Diana,

[1:38:42 - 1:38:47] ▶

um, where the isotopic ratios are not of this planet. So, I mean, so, but again, you know,

[1:38:48 - 1:38:56] ▶

what the hell do you do with it? I mean, you know, how did these things, you know, they're not natural

[1:38:57 - 1:39:01] ▶

in any way, shape or form, but yet they're here. Uh, our, our piece is definitely manufactured. No

[1:39:02 - 1:39:08] ▶

question at all. Is it, is it known publicly where, where that piece came from? What crash?

[1:39:08 - 1:39:15] ▶

What the problem, you know, here we get here again. And I think this is deliberate on the

[1:39:15 - 1:39:19] ▶

phenomenon side. You get these pieces and the provenance is very hard. I mean, we know what,

[1:39:19 - 1:39:25] ▶

where we know where it came from. We know it came from a guy who picked it up, gave it to his son,

[1:39:25 - 1:39:29] ▶

who gave it to his son, who basically gave it to Long John Neville, who gave it to Art Bell,

[1:39:29 - 1:39:34] ▶

who gave it to, you know, Linda Moltenhal, who served us. So you can look at that and you can say,

[1:39:34 - 1:39:39] ▶

yeah, but you know, as far as like taking into a quarter-large, the chain of acquisition

[1:39:39 - 1:39:44] ▶

there is, it's nothing, it's not the least bit scientific. It would be thrown out in a court.

[1:39:44 - 1:39:48] ▶

So to us, it's, we, we wholeheartedly admit that, you know, in the end, you don't know where the

[1:39:49 - 1:39:55] ▶

hell thing came from, but we definitely know it's manufactured. And we definitely know, it's been

[1:39:55 - 1:40:01] ▶

looked at by national labs. And every one of them said it would take an enormous amount of money.

[1:40:01 - 1:40:08] ▶

And we don't even think we'd have the time. In other words, we don't think there's enough time

[1:40:09 - 1:40:13] ▶

100 years maybe get to this capacity. I mean, to get to this point, we'll make it, oh, yeah,

[1:40:14 - 1:40:18] ▶

it is really, really odd piece. And this is the, this is the layered business.

[1:40:18 - 1:40:23] ▶

Business, that's 83 separate layers. And there's there's some elements. I mean, I don't like to talk

[1:40:25 - 1:40:30] ▶

about how it functions, you know, it functions as a, a wave guide at the micro level. It

[1:40:30 - 1:40:39] ▶

reportedly has the ability to lose mass once you put energy into it, certain amounts of energy into it.

[1:40:39 - 1:40:47] ▶

But if you're looking at it and, you know, the military is looking at it so many different ways,

[1:40:50 - 1:40:57] ▶

they're looking at it for their own benefit, right? So if they come back and say, look,

[1:40:57 - 1:41:01] ▶

and what I think's going to happen is they're going to come back and say, we don't know what the

[1:41:02 - 1:41:07] ▶

hell to do with this. We just don't. Yeah. Yeah. So we're going to put it on a table. We're going to

[1:41:07 - 1:41:13] ▶

come back and revisit it once the art technology gets better and then we can come back and look at it.

[1:41:13 - 1:41:18] ▶

And by the way, this is what happens in, in these programs, these legacy programs.

[1:41:18 - 1:41:23] ▶

You get something and you look at it and maybe say you have a down crashed or maybe you have a

[1:41:24 - 1:41:29] ▶

piece of something and you, you work for five years and you spend 50 million, 100 million dollars

[1:41:29 - 1:41:34] ▶

trying to figure out what it is and you make zero headway. What do you do? Budget comes around and

[1:41:34 - 1:41:39] ▶

your budgets are very tight. And you know, Congress comes up and maybe, you know, the gang of eight or

[1:41:39 - 1:41:44] ▶

somebody comes back and says, what progress have you made? Have you made any? Spent 10 years? What do you

[1:41:44 - 1:41:50] ▶

mean you have made any? Well, I haven't made any. Well, we're not going to give you 100 million dollars

[1:41:50 - 1:41:53] ▶

a year. We're going to give you maybe 10 to keep the program going. But you can't make headway.

[1:41:53 - 1:41:58] ▶

So what these people do is they keep the program going. It's like a tip. A tip was a continuation of

[1:41:58 - 1:42:03] ▶

OSAP. Yeah. They had, they had very little money to continue it. They had enough money to continue it.

[1:42:03 - 1:42:09] ▶

But people were working on this part time and lose all jobs. Yeah. And they kept it going on a very,

[1:42:09 - 1:42:16] ▶

very small budget. And now the budget's gotten much bigger. But I don't know how big that budget is now.

[1:42:16 - 1:42:21] ▶

I mean, the new, the new organization. And I don't know, you know, I don't know how much, I mean,

[1:42:21 - 1:42:27] ▶

how many people they're putting into this and, you know, if they're putting all scientists with no

[1:42:27 - 1:42:31] ▶

background in this, I mean, it took me a waste of time. Yeah. And yeah, the interesting thing about

[1:42:31 - 1:42:36] ▶

that is that I mean, it's very reminiscent of the Wilson Davis notes. And even, even, you know,

[1:42:36 - 1:42:42] ▶

we're surprisingly, even though our Davis and I support her much of Lazar, the Lazar story,

[1:42:42 - 1:42:48] ▶

you know, both accounts talking about how they look at the technology they work on for a few

[1:42:48 - 1:42:53] ▶

years. There's no, no progress. They get nowhere with it. And they put up, they shelve it for a few

[1:42:53 - 1:42:59] ▶

years. And every, every, you know, five to eight years, whatever they try to look at it again,

[1:42:59 - 1:43:04] ▶

when there's in some developments in technology and physics and understanding. Yeah. Yeah. And I think

[1:43:04 - 1:43:10] ▶

that's exactly what's going on. And, you know, I had, I got my head chewed off when I, when I made

[1:43:10 - 1:43:15] ▶

a comment that I believed Lazar's story. And I believe this story for a couple of reasons, but

[1:43:15 - 1:43:20] ▶

nevertheless some people who know much more than I do told me, you know, that's, that's not, it's not,

[1:43:20 - 1:43:27] ▶

no, you know, yeah. I'm accurate. But so, I don't know. I guess I'll, you know, I'll take

[1:43:27 - 1:43:34] ▶

to hit on that one if that's the case. But, you know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I know Eric is not a huge

[1:43:34 - 1:43:40] ▶

fan of Lazar at all. But it is funny that there's that similarity and the time frame as well as

[1:43:40 - 1:43:47] ▶

very similar. But I did kind of want to ask you kind of an aside question. Your, your,

[1:43:47 - 1:43:54] ▶

you know, former, I guess colleague or, you know, XCIFs or John Ramirez, you know, I guess you can

[1:43:54 - 1:44:01] ▶

say controversially brought into the conversation, the idea of DNA and the DNA possibly from

[1:44:01 - 1:44:08] ▶

Roswell and Hybrids. What do you think of that, that idea? Yeah. Well, I know that we're, I mean,

[1:44:08 - 1:44:19] ▶

you know, the study is looking into it. So, I mean, it's like it's, it's not, you know, an odd

[1:44:19 - 1:44:24] ▶

idea, a strange idea to think about John is, John, I didn't know John in the agency. We, John told

[1:44:24 - 1:44:30] ▶

me we had met him. He came to my office once. They were doing a program and they needed something

[1:44:30 - 1:44:35] ▶

and he came to my office and I met him. And I, I don't remember, don't remember that, that, but,

[1:44:35 - 1:44:39] ▶

but I do know who he is. And I, I certainly, I mean, I spoke to him on the phone and we haven't met

[1:44:40 - 1:44:45] ▶

personally yet. But I think he's a wonderful guy and he clearly is who he says he is. I know

[1:44:45 - 1:44:51] ▶

that. Yeah. And very, very bright man. And he, when I, first time I spoke to him, he shared some

[1:44:51 - 1:45:01] ▶

information with me that he has not gone public with, sort of to solidify his bonafides and the

[1:45:01 - 1:45:09] ▶

information, as far as I'm concerned, is accurate how he explained it to me. So, he's not a guy

[1:45:10 - 1:45:17] ▶

that's prone to making things up. I mean, you know, essentially, if he says something, he's

[1:45:17 - 1:45:22] ▶

basically going on very, very good information to DS itself. So, but as far as the DNA stuff goes,

[1:45:22 - 1:45:29] ▶

I know he has his own views about that. I, you know, I, I don't know what to say. I don't have,

[1:45:29 - 1:45:35] ▶

I didn't have the same information that he had. So, I can't say for sure. It's, you know,

[1:45:35 - 1:45:41] ▶

it's a kind of he said, she said kind of thing. Well, you know, he, well, he was in the agency,

[1:45:41 - 1:45:46] ▶

he ran into certain things and people told him things. And, but I, you know, and he told me what

[1:45:46 - 1:45:56] ▶

they said, but again, it's just like, you know, I can't verify it. You know, he's just what he told

[1:45:56 - 1:46:01] ▶

me. Do I believe him? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. But I can't verify it. I don't know. Yeah.

[1:46:01 - 1:46:07] ▶

And, you know, just some, some final questions. Is there, is there anything coming up from

[1:46:09 - 1:46:14] ▶

to the stars? Any, you know, books that are going to come out or projects? I know we, we know that

[1:46:14 - 1:46:20] ▶

Secret Machines, the fiction version has now is, has some kind of adaption that's going to be,

[1:46:20 - 1:46:26] ▶

maybe a TV series or something like that. But is there anything in developments with

[1:46:26 - 1:46:30] ▶

to the stars? Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah, we have, and any given time we have it about

[1:46:30 - 1:46:36] ▶

more than a dozen projects that are going on, you know, legendary pictures, the one who did

[1:46:37 - 1:46:44] ▶

doon, you know, about the rights to Secret Machines, as you said, so that we're looking at either a

[1:46:44 - 1:46:50] ▶

television series or maybe a television movie, we're not really sure yet. They've got a

[1:46:50 - 1:46:56] ▶

couple years to decide what they want to do. They're a great organization. We're really happy

[1:46:56 - 1:47:01] ▶

that they picked it up. We also have some animated series that have nothing to do with UFOs or UWP's

[1:47:01 - 1:47:10] ▶

that we've sold. And they're in pre-production right now, Tom's movie,

[1:47:11 - 1:47:17] ▶

Manchester, California, young adult kind of movie, which is very good. And I've seen the movie. And

[1:47:17 - 1:47:25] ▶

we're looking at distributors right now and we're in discussions with them. We're working on

[1:47:26 - 1:47:32] ▶

a couple other projects, one's an involved howl. And we're notewing. And we have,

[1:47:32 - 1:47:40] ▶

I think with the Army, and we probably have got about six other really cool treatments.

[1:47:41 - 1:47:50] ▶

We've already hired some, I mean, really first-rate screenwriters to write them in. We're working with

[1:47:51 - 1:47:56] ▶

cartel productions and some other companies to get them out.

[1:47:56 - 1:48:00] ▶

What I'm sorry, the thing was Hal and remote viewing. I've never heard about that.

[1:48:01 - 1:48:05] ▶

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have said it.

[1:48:06 - 1:48:07] ▶

It's going to be in the public, but it's really cool. And you know, and we, a script was written

[1:48:10 - 1:48:14] ▶

by a really talented guy who's done some major Hollywood work. And he's very excited about it.

[1:48:15 - 1:48:21] ▶

We're very excited about it. And we're working on the funding for it now, so getting that out.

[1:48:21 - 1:48:29] ▶

But the main goal right now, we had a switch over to become an entertainment company because

[1:48:29 - 1:48:35] ▶

after the pandemic hit, everything went to crap. We had a pretty good shot at some really

[1:48:35 - 1:48:42] ▶

good investment money coming in. And our goal was, you know, we were always doing entertainment,

[1:48:42 - 1:48:48] ▶

but we wanted to do the research side of it also. But the research side was so money intensive.

[1:48:49 - 1:48:55] ▶

And the money, some of the investors who walked away during pandemic, I mean, that was where

[1:48:55 - 1:49:03] ▶

the money was going to go. So we're left with what the Army has. We still had that, you know,

[1:49:03 - 1:49:08] ▶

like we have scouts and vault. Those are completely done. I mean, those are set up.

[1:49:08 - 1:49:13] ▶

They're going to come around to the public.

[1:49:13 - 1:49:14] ▶

Well, you know, they're ready to roll. But the problem is, you know, they're all developed.

[1:49:15 - 1:49:19] ▶

And we have some really sophisticated, you know, AI software that is really behind all this stuff.

[1:49:19 - 1:49:31] ▶

And but when we were working with Microsoft and Amazon about running the cloud structure for

[1:49:32 - 1:49:40] ▶

because it was going to be interactive. And we were going to take stuff in from people.

[1:49:40 - 1:49:44] ▶

He's like, hey, show me send me your video. When we'll run it through our, you know, we'll run it

[1:49:44 - 1:49:47] ▶

through our database. And we can tell you with pretty high degree of certainty whether it's real

[1:49:47 - 1:49:53] ▶

or not real, right? Right. Right. And then we were going to have another interactive database too.

[1:49:53 - 1:49:59] ▶

Looking at that, and we were going to throw in all kind of stuff from Mufon. We were working with Mufon.

[1:49:59 - 1:50:03] ▶

But the problem was we, the amount of money it costs to actually run these databases is,

[1:50:03 - 1:50:09] ▶

it's in the millions of dollars a year. And so we need, we need that kind of funding. And the only way

[1:50:09 - 1:50:17] ▶

we figured out we were going to get that kind of funding is if and get our shareholders, we had a

[1:50:17 - 1:50:22] ▶

lot of shareholders, like 4,000 shareholders. We owed them first and foremost. We owe them, you know,

[1:50:22 - 1:50:27] ▶

the return on their dollar as the first thing. And the second thing we owe them. And I think just

[1:50:27 - 1:50:32] ▶

this importantly is, you know, some progress on UAP, right? Yeah. Yeah. And because, you know, that's

[1:50:32 - 1:50:38] ▶

like to me, that's, that's to deal. And the only way to do that, the only way to get all these

[1:50:38 - 1:50:43] ▶

projects going is by making money. And we figured the best way to make money is to run entertainment.

[1:50:43 - 1:50:49] ▶

So that's the quickest return. So we're doing as much as we can to pull money in and hopefully more

[1:50:49 - 1:50:54] ▶

investors, once more investors comes in. And if we get on maybe in one of the exchanges,

[1:50:54 - 1:50:58] ▶

like NASDAQ, then our shares become unjable, they become worth something. And then they become

[1:50:58 - 1:51:03] ▶

traded. And then there's more investors become interested. And we're hoping that will push,

[1:51:03 - 1:51:07] ▶

push everything forward. And we can move, we can move forward. Now, in the meantime, we still

[1:51:08 - 1:51:13] ▶

are talking with other government, you know, we have our hands and hands in. And there's been

[1:51:14 - 1:51:20] ▶

some opportunities, but we some we turned down, you know, this wasn't our, our deal, but

[1:51:20 - 1:51:25] ▶

but I'm very, very excited for the future. I mean, I really am. And I mean, we wanted to be,

[1:51:28 - 1:51:33] ▶

we still want to be, you know, the place, the central focus for this topic. We think we have

[1:51:34 - 1:51:42] ▶

a chance of being that. And not to, you know, denigrate, you know, move on or, you know,

[1:51:42 - 1:51:49] ▶

some of these other organizations, which are fantastic. But we would, we would work in concert

[1:51:49 - 1:51:54] ▶

with them. I mean, that's the goal is working together as a team, each one, you know, individually

[1:51:54 - 1:52:00] ▶

going out and doing what they need to be doing, but maybe having TTS focus almost as a central,

[1:52:00 - 1:52:05] ▶

like a central focusing group for this and running this thing through our, you know, our databases,

[1:52:05 - 1:52:10] ▶

our platforms, which are very sophisticated. And, but we need a lot of money to run these things

[1:52:10 - 1:52:15] ▶

out. And it's a place where people can come in and, you know, and, you know, some was like, you

[1:52:15 - 1:52:19] ▶

know, the black vault, you know, Jonathan, I can't remember his last name, Greenwald or something

[1:52:19 - 1:52:22] ▶

like that. Yeah, John Greenwald. Yeah, an incredible thing that he's done, you know, and, you know,

[1:52:22 - 1:52:29] ▶

how do you take all this data and put it together? This is what Bass was trying to do, what Bigelow

[1:52:29 - 1:52:35] ▶

was trying to do. This is now what the UAP ask force is trying to do. How do you take all this data

[1:52:35 - 1:52:40] ▶

and a Jacques, you know, you know, actually built, Jacques, really actually built the data programs

[1:52:40 - 1:52:44] ▶

and data processing. Yeah. And of course, he's one of the best studies, one of the world's best at this.

[1:52:44 - 1:52:51] ▶

And, and that's what their goal is. But, of course, hopefully they'll have the money to do this if,

[1:52:51 - 1:52:57] ▶

if they get a contract, I'm not sure if they have or not. But I know some places have gotten

[1:52:57 - 1:53:03] ▶

contracts already from the task force. And I'm sure that's what they're going to be doing.

[1:53:03 - 1:53:08] ▶

Because the only way you're going to get to this is find some type of

[1:53:08 - 1:53:12] ▶

pattern, you know, within the noise. And then because right now there's a bunch of dots. And people's,

[1:53:14 - 1:53:20] ▶

and people say, well, we have to figure out how to connect them. Well, I'm like, we don't even know

[1:53:20 - 1:53:24] ▶

what the hell the docs are. I mean, we think they're the dots, but we, we don't know if, really,

[1:53:24 - 1:53:29] ▶

what we should be looking at. I mean, let alone connecting them. I mean, I've got to do these big

[1:53:29 - 1:53:34] ▶

areas like psychokinesis, but we don't even know what the hell psychokinesis is. We can tell you

[1:53:34 - 1:53:38] ▶

what it does, but we don't know how it works. So that's sort of what the problem is. There's,

[1:53:39 - 1:53:43] ▶

there's no there there. There's no ontology we have. Yeah. And do you think once there's,

[1:53:43 - 1:53:48] ▶

there are possibly some developments and kind of refining the perspective on that that it will

[1:53:48 - 1:53:54] ▶

become public as it's happening? I think, yeah, yeah. Well, let me put it this way. Don't hold

[1:53:54 - 1:54:02] ▶

your breath on the government. You know, coming out with anything beyond more videos, maybe.

[1:54:02 - 1:54:07] ▶

I think it's unfair to put it on the government, like, you know, lose program.

[1:54:10 - 1:54:14] ▶

And James Lakasky's program, you know, he was the guy who ran off set. Incredible night,

[1:54:15 - 1:54:21] ▶

incredibly nice guy. I'd never personally met him. I had an email conversation with the ones. It's,

[1:54:21 - 1:54:26] ▶

he, I mean, they were the ones who really got the ball rolling. They knew it wasn't nuts and bolts.

[1:54:27 - 1:54:34] ▶

It was a lot more than nuts and bolts. You got to look at Bigelow, Bob Bigelow. It is a group

[1:54:34 - 1:54:39] ▶

calm and all these guys. I mean, these are the guys that really, George Napp, they made it happen.

[1:54:39 - 1:54:45] ▶

They, they, they really sort of started this whole thing. Lou Wox and Lou, you know,

[1:54:45 - 1:54:50] ▶

keep God's work as far as I was concerned, keeping it all together and then pushing that out there.

[1:54:50 - 1:54:55] ▶

He's a hero in my book. And so I think the cat's out of the bag. It's not going anywhere.

[1:54:55 - 1:55:02] ▶

It's going to be out there. But, but if you really want to get to the part of this and you really

[1:55:02 - 1:55:08] ▶

want to know, it's got to be private. It's got to come from the private. And I was at a conference

[1:55:08 - 1:55:13] ▶

and I would say, I'd ask him, what, you know, so I wrote up a little thing. This is what it's got to

[1:55:13 - 1:55:16] ▶

look like. You know, you can have this, you know, quarterly, you know, reviews, which, you know,

[1:55:16 - 1:55:21] ▶

we're getting anything for our money. You can't do that. You just have to throw money at it.

[1:55:22 - 1:55:26] ▶

And you have to keep throwing money at it. It might be the 10, 15, 20 years until you can get

[1:55:26 - 1:55:31] ▶

something that you know you can work with. And it has to be something where everybody's involved,

[1:55:31 - 1:55:37] ▶

where other governments are involved, where religious scholars are involved, you know,

[1:55:37 - 1:55:42] ▶

you know, social science teachers, philosophers, scientists, researchers like yourself,

[1:55:42 - 1:55:48] ▶

experiences who are all involved and all participating in this and trying to work together.

[1:55:49 - 1:55:54] ▶

That all sounds cum bi-ah, but honestly, God, it can be done. I've done this before myself

[1:55:54 - 1:55:59] ▶

inside the government at a classified level with on, on big programs. So I know it can be done.

[1:55:59 - 1:56:04] ▶

It's just a lot of hard work. But it can be done. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, actually, I know that

[1:56:04 - 1:56:12] ▶

Peter LeVenda, you know, and Tom have the other book coming out, War out of the God. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:56:12 - 1:56:19] ▶

It's, I read the, the unfinished manuscript. Great. LeVenda is such a great, it's just a smart,

[1:56:19 - 1:56:27] ▶

smart man. I just, you know, he and Tom, you know, would get together and they were talking.

[1:56:27 - 1:56:32] ▶

And for this third book, I, I talked with Peter a lot too about where it was going. And I know

[1:56:32 - 1:56:37] ▶

AJ is working on the third installment of Secret Machines. And we had talked a little bit about where,

[1:56:37 - 1:56:44] ▶

you know, it was going to go. And so we're really, really looking forward to those things coming out.

[1:56:44 - 1:56:49] ▶

And hopefully they'll be coming out soon. So yeah. And I encourage everybody to go listen to the

[1:56:49 - 1:56:54] ▶

two-stars podcast because you're, you're talked with Peter LeVenda are incredible. There's some

[1:56:54 - 1:56:59] ▶

of my favorite talks in the world. Oh, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, hoping

[1:56:59 - 1:57:05] ▶

I can get Peter LeVenda on here. He's, I'll talk to him again. I'll talk to him. No problem. Yeah.

[1:57:05 - 1:57:11] ▶

A great, great thinker. And I always appreciate his perspective. And, and again, as I said, his

[1:57:11 - 1:57:16] ▶

sourcing. I mean, you look at the, the, a Peter LeVenda book and you have research for the next

[1:57:16 - 1:57:22] ▶

few months, but it could be years if you look at all the sources in his books and, and go back to

[1:57:22 - 1:57:27] ▶

the sources and look at them. They're immaculate. He's a bona fide historian and religious scholar.

[1:57:27 - 1:57:33] ▶

And he is an academic and he takes these things very, very seriously. And this is one of some

[1:57:33 - 1:57:39] ▶

of the problems with, you know, the, you know, the public community is why a lot of people don't get

[1:57:39 - 1:57:43] ▶

heavily involved. Like some of the people I hang out with don't get heavily involved in it

[1:57:43 - 1:57:47] ▶

is because they'll write books and they'll just stay safe things. But there's no sourcing for any of it.

[1:57:47 - 1:57:52] ▶

And the reason why there's no sourcing for any of it is to get out. There isn't any. And, you know,

[1:57:52 - 1:57:57] ▶

I was listening to a podcast the other day of this. I won't say who she was, but I was

[1:57:57 - 1:58:03] ▶

just absolutely stunned by the, you know, a dashing of this person just making up this stuff

[1:58:03 - 1:58:10] ▶

out of whole cloth, pulling together different things that are reminded me of what's his name,

[1:58:10 - 1:58:15] ▶

the guy who started S, Ear Hard, Werner Earhart back in the, in the 70s and 80s, you're too young

[1:58:15 - 1:58:21] ▶

for this guy, but he pulled together a buddhism and philosophy and everything made this whole

[1:58:21 - 1:58:26] ▶

seminar together. And it was just absolute nonsense. But, you know, you have to be careful with

[1:58:26 - 1:58:32] ▶

stuff like that. Yeah. And, you know, Jim, it's been a pleasure having you on. I really appreciate

[1:58:32 - 1:58:39] ▶

your time. It's a great discussion. I could just keep it at this all day. So I don't want to keep

[1:58:39 - 1:58:43] ▶

you too much longer. But would you have any kind of parting words for the audience on anything

[1:58:43 - 1:58:49] ▶

regarding the phenomenon and, you know, UAP and transparency or kind of anything for them?

[1:58:49 - 1:58:55] ▶

Yeah. Yeah, I do actually. And I'd like to say this to people. I remember what's on Whitley

[1:58:55 - 1:59:00] ▶

Strieger's broadcast and he asked me the same question. And what I say, what I always say to the

[1:59:00 - 1:59:04] ▶

listeners and, you know, and I say, you know, your fellow travelers, you're listening for a reason,

[1:59:04 - 1:59:10] ▶

you're interested in this for a reason. And I'm not sure where that, what that reason is for

[1:59:10 - 1:59:16] ▶

instance, but I will tell you, for a hundred percent fact, UAPs are real. The phenomenon is real.

[1:59:16 - 1:59:24] ▶

It's been around for a long time. You, if you're fascinated with this, you're on a journey,

[1:59:24 - 1:59:33] ▶

probably the most fascinating journey you can ever be on. Politics, things along those lines.

[1:59:33 - 1:59:40] ▶

I mean, that's for sects second tier. The first tier is this. This is the unknown. This is the

[1:59:40 - 1:59:46] ▶

undiscovered country. This is the story of the millennia. So keep it up. Keep your interest up.

[1:59:46 - 1:59:52] ▶

And keep the faith. We may never get to it in maybe in my lifetime, but hopefully in your

[1:59:53 - 1:59:58] ▶

lifetime, we'll figure out a lot more about this down the road. And good luck. Yeah, that's

[1:59:58 - 2:00:05] ▶

great. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming on, Jim. Sure thing, James, we'll be in touch.

[2:00:05 - 2:00:09] ▶

Definitely. Take care. Bye-bye.

[2:00:09 - 2:00:11] ▶