2,503 segments
1992. I was the chief of aerospace medicine and he said,
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I've got something to show you even you have never seen.
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And when I sat down in his chair, there's a saucer 20 feet across.
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It was sort of like a modified egg.
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There were no rivets, no seams.
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But then later on, it rotated.
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It was clear as day. It said, U.S. Air Force.
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But then when I said, why would we build it in a design like this?
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He looked at me and went, we got it from them.
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I flew helicopters and I flew F-16s.
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No vehicle I have ever known of could obtain a 45 degree angle of attack without moving.
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So when these companies say, look, we made this thing.
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Look at how fancy it is.
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That's to get the people's attention so they don't look at this other thing
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that they're spending all the money on.
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In 2023, when David Grush testified under oath before Congress,
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he explained to the world and to our system of government a host of staggering revelations.
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The military has an alien craft retrieval program.
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There were bodies in some of these vehicles.
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And he also confirmed what had long been speculated.
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That some combination of secret military programs and private aerospace companies
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have developed reverse engineered versions of this alien technology.
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While many of you watching this channel might have thought, like me,
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that Grush's personal bravery and commitment to disclosing these truths was worthy of the utmost respect.
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It was unfortunate to see the tried and tested playbook of discrediting and ad hominem attacks that emerged in the wake of his testimony.
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Yeah, definitely experienced some really nuts stuff.
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You know, I don't like throwing shade, but like Neil deGrasse Tyson, right?
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He's made up his mind.
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I've read his tweets and I'm like, dude, you have a PhD in physics?
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Where's your curiosity?
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I can't even believe.
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There's no evidence that would convince an authentic skeptic.
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However, even within UFO World, there were some who questioned the fact that Grush had not personally seen these crafts,
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but was relying on the testimony of dozens of those who had,
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members of the military or government that he hoped would personally come forward and back up his claims.
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One man watching this testimony knew that he could be one of those to come forward.
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I thought, I've got his six o'clock covered.
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To stand up in a similar way with all of the risk of reputation and bravely break his silence about what he had seen.
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Dr. Gregory Rogers, a recently retired chief flight surgeon for NASA and the U.S. Air Force
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and former director of aerospace medicine,
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has decided that now is the right time to tell the world what he had witnessed.
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In stunning, first-hand detail.
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That we have a craft that in some way or another didn't come from here.
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This wasn't something in the sky, off in the distance, or on radar coming out of the ocean.
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This was something in our possession.
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But this conversation isn't only about UFOs.
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It's about God, the universe, science, as well as life and death.
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Dr. Rogers has been witness to the most confronting sights that most of us can scarcely imagine.
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And in this conversation, he bravely speaks about his PTSD and the memories he carries.
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And why he believes UFO disclosure and what he saw in our possession is the only path toward progress.
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So today, I'm so proud to present this conversation with the brilliant Dr. Greg Rogers.
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This is an absolute honor.
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I have Greg Rogers here.
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You are another just extremely interesting witness who I've been trying to get on the show for a while.
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Thank you so much to Chris Leto, Leto Files.
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An amazing show around UFOs.
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And he's also a former pilot.
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And he does a really amazing interview with you.
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So I recommend everybody go check that out.
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But he introduced us.
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And after watching your interview with him, I was just fascinated by what you saw and your background,
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which I think is really beyond reproach.
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And so I'm very excited to get into this.
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I'm very pleased to be here.
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Oh, it's a total honor for me.
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And I appreciate your courage in coming out and speaking out.
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Before we get into that, just what's a little bit about your background?
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Well, I was a flight surgeon for the United States Air Force and became the chief of aerospace medicine at the 45th Space Wing,
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which included the Eastern Space and Missile Center, Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Patrick Air Force Base,
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and then also the Eastern Missile Range.
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But as such, we also supported tenant units that included a vast array of units, including we had aircraft from the 9th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing that most people would know as U-2s.
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And we had the Air Force Technical Application Center, which is a whole other story.
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But I did deploy to the South Atlantic in South America with AFTAC.
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But we did search and rescue missions out in the ocean.
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If somebody managed to sink their boat and call in for help, we would go out and rescue them.
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So I had a wide range of duties.
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Now, the one that most people find most fascinating was that I was the senior flight surgeon for the astronaut rescue and recovery team at Kennedy Space Center.
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So every time we had a space shuttle launch, I would climb in Jolly 1.
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We had other flight surgeons that would get in Jolly 2 and Jolly 3.
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So we would clear the box to make sure that there was no unwanted people into the downrange area at the time of launch.
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But then the three helicopters with the three flight doctors on it and three sets of PJ's pararescue jumpers were always sitting at the shuttle landing facility for any launch or landing opportunities for the space shuttle.
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Because nothing about flying the space shuttle is routine.
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Even at the end of its service time, it was still considered an experimental vehicle.
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So that's a pretty important role.
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I mean, you were kind of hands-on with people inside the space shuttle at its kind of inception moment.
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Well, plus I helped to make other changes.
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As an example, when I first got there in 1989, do you remember the orange launch entry suits that the astronauts wore?
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Well, in their right lower leg pocket, they had two chem lights, and they were both red.
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As soon as I heard that, I said, you've got to be kidding.
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What are you doing with red chem lights?
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And they said, well, we want to make sure it doesn't affect their night vision.
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I said, forget their night vision.
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First of all, green chem lights are not going to affect their night vision.
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They're not bright enough.
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But we can't see the red chem lights on our night vision goggles when we're looking for them unless we fly right over them.
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You give them green chem lights, and on a clear night, we can spot them five miles away.
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So what I'm concerned about is my ability to rescue those astronauts and save their lives.
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So it took me a year and a half to get NASA to switch to the green chem lights.
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So you were the guy behind the switch from the red chem lights to the green chem lights.
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In fact, after one of the MoData exercises, that's an exercise where the astronauts would bail out into the Atlantic Ocean,
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and then all the rescue forces have to go find and rescue them, regardless of the day or night or anything else.
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But Colonel Shokaitis was the head of DDMS, which is the Department of Defense Man and Space Light Support Office.
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And so the following day, when we had our debriefing, when it got around to me, he said,
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Okay, Major Rogers, what are you complaining about this year?
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I said, I'm going to complain about three of the same things I complained about last year because they didn't get fixed.
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And so one of them was the chem lights.
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And after me throwing a fit in that meeting, it was only like two months later that we finally got the chem lights fixed.
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Well, that's an amazing thing that you can take credit for.
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Well, you know, people think of NASA as the smartest, greatest thing.
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Some of the NASA managers wanted to make spacesuits, and they did not want to involve the Air Force or the rescue forces.
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So they made these beautiful blue flight suits.
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You can still see astronauts having pictures taken in the blue flight suits.
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So when you go back in history, you'll see that.
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When they showed it to the rescue forces, we all went, You've got to be kidding.
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When they bail out into the ocean, how are we going to see them?
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So even if you go back to, like, the first few launches, STS-1234, they had to go to Beale Air Force Base and borrow the yellow spacesuits that the U-2 and SR-71 guys fly because you couldn't fly with the NASA ones.
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So any time, you know, go back and look at Young and Crippen in STS-1, they've got yellow flights and spacesuits on you.
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Well, yeah, no, you think of it as this kind of untouchably perfect, you know, organization.
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Well, you know, it all boils down to humans and human error.
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So, okay, so for context for the audience, you're at Patrick Air Force Base and Patrick Air Force Base...
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That's in Florida, right?
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So you mentioned you were at Kennedy Space Center.
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It started out as the Banana River Naval Air Station.
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And while it was the Banana River Naval Air Station, Flight 19 went missing.
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And so the PBY that also went missing looking for them took off from flight ops at Patrick Air Force Base.
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But it was the Banana River Naval Air Station.
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And why don't you back up for a second, just give people context about what Flight 19 is.
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Okay, well, Flight 19 was a doomed set of aircraft because when they took off, the lead pilot became confused.
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And so there are some areas out there that even on our maps while I was flying there, you can't trust your compasses because of magnetic deviations.
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And so that's part of what's some of the problem in the Bermuda Triangle, which this was in.
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This is so interesting because I just met with a former NASA engineer out here.
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And he was like, look, I think a lot of UFO stuff's a little overhyped.
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But he goes, I can tell you definitively that there is a little patch around the Bermuda Triangle,
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or like near there, where there is just tons of electromagnetic anomalies going on.
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And he's like, I don't know if it's like a portal or like what it is.
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Well, my personal belief is that there were probably in ancient, ancient, ancient times, metal meteorites that landed under the ocean floor.
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And as we fly over them, you can watch your compasses go crazy.
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And then you fly two or three more miles and they settle down and you go right back to normal.
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So there are times that, especially with our pilots who know how to fly by instrument flight rules,
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they would just forget the normal navigation, continue on their path because they knew when they got to the other side of the deformation area
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that they could trust their instruments again.
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So what happened with Flight 19?
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Well, they took off and they were going to go out and do a bombing raid.
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Well, the lead pilot got disoriented.
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You know, like I said, I talked to some of the guys that were in flight ops on that day
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and they were laughing and said the lead flight pilot was arguing with his other guys
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because they were saying, we're traveling east.
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And he said, no, we've got to be in and around the islands near South Florida.
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And they said, no, these islands are the Bahamas.
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And there were arguments about whether or not some of the crews would break off and say, this guy is going to kill us.
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And so these guys were listening on the radio to all of these Navy pilots arguing among themselves.
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So finally, one of the guys said that two of the airplanes broke off and said, we're heading west because we are totally lost.
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But he thought they were still over the Gulf of Mexico.
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And so he continued to fly east.
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But he was confused.
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The weather conditions were bad that day.
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And so there were all sorts of problems.
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Well, when they lost contact with flight 19, they had this flying boat.
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And it had two wings, but it could land on water.
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Well, they went out a few miles and they lost contact with them.
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But there was a visiting ship that registered an in-flight explosion at about the location where the PBY would have been.
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So because of the confluence of the loss of this flying boat and flight 19, everybody heard the first big, great story about the Bermuda Triangle from that flight.
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And so does anybody know what happened to flight 19?
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They just lost contact.
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They were heading east and nobody knows.
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They only have limited amounts of fuel.
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And when you run out of fuel, you're not flying anywhere.
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And it was never found.
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And it was never found.
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And then, you know, back on the base, is there speculation that, you know, all these sort of weird electromagnetic anomalies that you mentioned, you know, what do people think caused these things?
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There were discussion of all of these things.
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But we had areas that we had marked on our maps that this is an area that you don't want to trust your magnetic compass on.
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And so we knew to either avoid those areas or account for the effect of the magnetic flaws when you flew over that area.
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Do you, you know, what I've found just anecdotally is when I meet people inside the government or who've worked at, you know, NASA or the Air Force, you expect them to be less conspiratorial than people on the outside in the civilian world, right?
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Because, like, they sort of know more.
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Well, one way or the other.
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Often it's the inverse where they've seen a thing or two.
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They know that, you know, there's some weird things in our reality, like the, you know, Bermuda Triangle thing you just mentioned.
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And so that kind of opens them up to a whole host of possibilities.
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Are there any other things outside of the core experience that we're going to get into in 1992 that you experienced in a sort of government context, you know, Air Force or NASA, that really kind of widened your worldview?
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Well, there were a couple of just sort of transient events that we all looked at each other and said, you know, what was that?
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This one time we were flying out, I believe an aircraft had been reported, spotted in the water like 130 miles off the 110 radial from Cape Canaveral.
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And so as we're flying out there, the weather's kind of funny.
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And so we had estimated what our time of arrival would be.
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And so we were flying straight and level, didn't seem like anything was going on.
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But when we got there, we were 10 minutes later than what we expected.
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And so we thought, you know, man, we must have deviated from course or something.
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But we're all sort of looking at each other like, nah, it couldn't have been that.
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But, you know, it was just one of those weird events.
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But it's not like you're going to talk about it or report it.
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We're not going to include it in the demission brief.
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What do you think caused it?
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It could have been that the winds we encountered made a difference.
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But it wasn't anything that we recognized at the time.
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So what was the speculation?
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We all just looked at each other.
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Nobody really said anything.
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We didn't speculate about that.
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Yeah, that's also, you know, a cultural thing, I think, where it's like you all look at each other like, that was weird.
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And then you kind of move on.
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Well, I want to get into the core experience, which you've had a lot of courage to come out and speak about.
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And what is your role and where are you stationed?
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Okay, I was the chief of aerospace medicine.
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What does that mean?
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Okay, the 45th Space Wing owned everything at the Cape Patrick Air Force Base, Eastern Space and Missile Center,
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and some other things that we won't be discussing.
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But there was a medical group that was part of the 45th Space Wing, and that was the 45th Medical Group.
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So my colonel, the commander, answered to the general for everything to do medically.
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You know, if somebody got sick at the officer's club from eating something last night, well, we got to go investigate, you know, with something there.
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Just every kind of thing you can imagine.
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Did you manage a lot of people in that capacity?
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I had a bioenvironmental engineer.
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I had a military public health officer.
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And then underneath them were probably about 20, 25 people.
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But then I also was the chief flight surgeon.
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So I oversaw the flight medicine program.
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So I had a really good flight surgeon that was there when I got there, and she was wonderful.
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So she helped teach me the ropes when I first got there and helped run everything.
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But we also had to do everything else.
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Cape Canaveral Air Force Station is a large facility.
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And so there has to be a company that oversees all of the normal stuff like you would expect a town council would.
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So somebody's got to maintain the roads.
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Somebody's got to fix the traffic lights if they go bad.
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But this company was called EG&G, which is a major, major military industrial corporation.
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And so they oversaw all of the normal operations of that.
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However, that does not reprise the U.S. Air Force from being responsible for it.
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So just like any contractor, you have to have someone monitor the contract to make sure that the contractors are doing the right thing.
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So what was EG&G responsible for on the base?
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They were responsible for all of the grounds.
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They maintained the buildings and did all of that kind of stuff.
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Now, in this building, they maintained it, but it was leased to Lockheed.
[0:21:28 - 0:21:36] ▶
This one was leased to Martin Marietta.
[0:21:36 - 0:21:39] ▶
Now, the reason I say them separately was that Martin Marietta was separate from Lockheed at the time I was there.
[0:21:39 - 0:21:48] ▶
Only in 1995 did they ever join to be Lockheed Martin.
[0:21:48 - 0:21:52] ▶
So Martin Marietta was doing a whole bunch of other things.
[0:21:53 - 0:21:59] ▶
But every contractor there, Boeing, Raytheon, everything, they had to sort of lease their housing, their support, everything from EG&G.
[0:21:59 - 0:22:14] ▶
So EG&G had this, like, prime contractor position on the base?
[0:22:15 - 0:22:19] ▶
Yes, they were the prime contractor for Cape Canaveral.
[0:22:19 - 0:22:22] ▶
And what do you – do you know much about them?
[0:22:22 - 0:22:25] ▶
Because, you know, they have an interesting history.
[0:22:25 - 0:22:27] ▶
They came out of MIT and Doc Edgerton.
[0:22:27 - 0:22:29] ▶
Yeah, EG&G is a whole story unto itself.
[0:22:30 - 0:22:33] ▶
And, you know, I'm not going to touch that one.
[0:22:34 - 0:22:37] ▶
Guys, as you can tell, Dr. Rogers was keeping some information and speculation about the company EG&G to himself here.
[0:22:39 - 0:22:47] ▶
But this is one of those histories I can't resist unpacking.
[0:22:47 - 0:22:50] ▶
Because EG&G's role in the UFO cover-up might be far bigger than most people realize.
[0:22:50 - 0:22:56] ▶
So a quick history lesson.
[0:22:56 - 0:22:57] ▶
EG&G is most associated with one of its founders, Harold Doc Edgerton.
[0:22:58 - 0:23:03] ▶
He was a brilliant scientist at MIT.
[0:23:03 - 0:23:05] ▶
A close associate of the legendary figure associated with the UFO world and the MJ-12,
[0:23:06 - 0:23:11] ▶
and the father of the American nuclear program, Vannevar Bush.
[0:23:12 - 0:23:15] ▶
Doc Edgerton had developed a revolutionary use of stroboscopic cameras
[0:23:15 - 0:23:20] ▶
that, along with other pioneering wartime technology, ended up being used in the Manhattan Project.
[0:23:20 - 0:23:26] ▶
All of those amazing photographs of the initial microseconds of nuclear blasts?
[0:23:26 - 0:23:31] ▶
From the start, they were embedded in the deepest military secrets.
[0:23:33 - 0:23:36] ▶
Remember, when a test nuclear detonation goes off, often all of the sensors get fried in the area.
[0:23:36 - 0:23:42] ▶
This is caused by an electromagnetic pulse.
[0:23:42 - 0:23:45] ▶
So the novel filming techniques EG&G had developed would have been crucial to capturing UFOs.
[0:23:45 - 0:23:51] ▶
Because when the bomb goes off, you can't get, in the first few seconds,
[0:23:51 - 0:23:56] ▶
there are no electronics that work.
[0:23:57 - 0:23:59] ▶
So you're not able to get any electrical readings or measurements.
[0:23:59 - 0:24:03] ▶
So all you have to look at are the films coming back from the test.
[0:24:03 - 0:24:08] ▶
And we all know UFOs show up consistently around nuclear detonations.
[0:24:08 - 0:24:13] ▶
This would have given EG&G proprietary and early knowledge of the UFO phenomena.
[0:24:13 - 0:24:19] ▶
By the 1950s, EG&G was woven into the fabric of the Atomic Energy Commission itself.
[0:24:19 - 0:24:25] ▶
If you've watched this channel before, you will know that the Atomic Energy Commission
[0:24:25 - 0:24:29] ▶
has more than a few shady ties to UFO programs.
[0:24:29 - 0:24:33] ▶
EG&G became the AEC's prime contractor and later filled the same role for the Department of Energy.
[0:24:33 - 0:24:40] ▶
EG&G essentially ran the Nevada test site where the most nuclear detonations occurred.
[0:24:40 - 0:24:46] ▶
They also worked side by side with Los Alamos, Livermore, and Sandia Labs to develop and refine atomic weapons.
[0:24:46 - 0:24:54] ▶
The Atomic Energy Commission trusted EG&G with its most sensitive operations.
[0:24:54 - 0:24:59] ▶
They held the queue clearances and had intimate access to the depths of the Atomic Kingdom.
[0:24:59 - 0:25:04] ▶
They were present at the creation of the military secret programs,
[0:25:05 - 0:25:08] ▶
the development of the government's most sensitive tech,
[0:25:08 - 0:25:11] ▶
and they were managing the contracts and locations covering these programs.
[0:25:11 - 0:25:16] ▶
EG&G also played a key role in one of the most compelling UFO stories to come out of the 1960s,
[0:25:16 - 0:25:23] ▶
something I've talked about at length here on this show,
[0:25:23 - 0:25:26] ▶
and an event tied to the story of Harold Malmgren, presidential advisor to JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford.
[0:25:26 - 0:25:33] ▶
I'm of course talking about the Bluegill Triple Prime Test that occurred in October of 1962 during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
[0:25:34 - 0:25:42] ▶
This was one of the high-altitude nuclear detonations that occurred in the Marshall Islands,
[0:25:42 - 0:25:47] ▶
and it was unique because there is a lot of documentation leading me to believe that a UFO fell out of the plume,
[0:25:47 - 0:25:54] ▶
the blast in the air of this test.
[0:25:55 - 0:25:57] ▶
They were so used to UFOs showing up around nuclear detonations that they called these objects tagalongs.
[0:25:57 - 0:26:04] ▶
It was EG&G crews aboard the planes filming that high-altitude nuclear detonation.
[0:26:05 - 0:26:11] ▶
Given that they were also deeply involved in managing a facility like Sandia Labs,
[0:26:11 - 0:26:15] ▶
where it was rumored the recovered debris was transferred,
[0:26:15 - 0:26:18] ▶
it would seem highly probable that EG&G were well aware of the existence of this exotic technology.
[0:26:18 - 0:26:24] ▶
So I said, well, what am I here to find out?
[0:26:24 - 0:26:28] ▶
He said, well, he reached for some stuff sitting on his desk.
[0:26:29 - 0:26:33] ▶
These are things that have come down.
[0:26:34 - 0:26:37] ▶
I'm looking at, you know, sitting on his desk.
[0:26:38 - 0:26:41] ▶
Round rock, you know.
[0:26:41 - 0:26:43] ▶
So you're looking at anomalous material?
[0:26:43 - 0:26:45] ▶
But debris or images?
[0:26:47 - 0:26:49] ▶
I think that the people of that generation were so accustomed to seeing them
[0:26:58 - 0:27:03] ▶
that they didn't, they knew it wasn't Russian.
[0:27:03 - 0:27:06] ▶
They knew it wasn't, in those days, it was never going to be Chinese.
[0:27:06 - 0:27:09] ▶
They knew it wasn't a threat.
[0:27:10 - 0:27:11] ▶
So dad said, yeah, we called it a tagalong.
[0:27:12 - 0:27:14] ▶
Like, didn't you ask what it was?
[0:27:17 - 0:27:19] ▶
And he sort of replied in such a way that I realized nobody asked any questions at that
[0:27:19 - 0:27:26] ▶
And they were probably encouraged not to ask any questions.
[0:27:28 - 0:27:30] ▶
When I saw this object, which I called a tagalong.
[0:27:31 - 0:27:37] ▶
That's what you would call them, tagalongs.
[0:27:38 - 0:27:39] ▶
And all of this would of course comport with EG&G's management of the most infamous facility
[0:27:40 - 0:27:46] ▶
in UFO lore, Area 51.
[0:27:46 - 0:27:48] ▶
In the early 1960s, EG&G's Special Projects Division, based in Las Vegas, had been trusted
[0:27:49 - 0:27:55] ▶
to handle personnel screening, site access, transportation, and daily operations.
[0:27:55 - 0:28:00] ▶
If you were hired for any black program at Area 51, your official paperwork and pay often
[0:28:00 - 0:28:07] ▶
had to come through EG&G, even if you were working for the CIA or Air Force.
[0:28:07 - 0:28:12] ▶
They essentially became the operational gatekeeper for Groom Lake, running the commuter flights
[0:28:12 - 0:28:17] ▶
in and out, managing the security badge office, and controlling access lists.
[0:28:17 - 0:28:22] ▶
If Groom Lake and Area 51 was and still is, home to exotic craft, not of this earth, EG&G
[0:28:22 - 0:28:29] ▶
were the ones keeping that technology under lock and key.
[0:28:29 - 0:28:32] ▶
Which brings us to Bob Lazar.
[0:28:32 - 0:28:34] ▶
Los Alamos officials told us they had no records of a Robert Lazar ever working there.
[0:28:35 - 0:28:39] ▶
They were either mistaken or were lying.
[0:28:39 - 0:28:41] ▶
A 1982 phone book from the lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and technicians.
[0:28:42 - 0:28:47] ▶
EG&G, which is where Lazar says he was interviewed for the job at S4, also has no records.
[0:28:47 - 0:28:54] ▶
It's as if someone has made him disappear.
[0:28:54 - 0:28:56] ▶
Whatever you think of his story, whether it's true, fabricated, or part of a carefully managed
[0:28:56 - 0:29:02] ▶
leak, it certainly supports EG&G's foundational role in the UFO story.
[0:29:02 - 0:29:08] ▶
See, Lazar said that it was EG&G that handled his background checks, and EG&G that flew him
[0:29:08 - 0:29:14] ▶
on those unmarked Janet flights to S4.
[0:29:14 - 0:29:16] ▶
He claimed that there were nine alien crafts at S4.
[0:29:16 - 0:29:20] ▶
Even if you doubt him, the kind of gatekeeping he describes is exactly what EG&G specialized
[0:29:20 - 0:29:26] ▶
Stories that support the idea that EG&G manages large complexes, many of them underground,
[0:29:27 - 0:29:33] ▶
and that they are directly experimenting on or handling recovered UFOs have surfaced time
[0:29:33 - 0:29:39] ▶
For instance, in 1991, a caller into a Las Vegas radio show claimed he was hired to run
[0:29:40 - 0:29:47] ▶
electricity 3,000 feet underground on a certain test site, a job that came through Reynolds
[0:29:47 - 0:29:53] ▶
Electronics, an EG&G subsidiary.
[0:29:53 - 0:29:56] ▶
He also said that military personnel were working alongside beings that resembled aliens.
[0:29:56 - 0:30:02] ▶
And many hardcore UFO researchers have placed EG&G's name alongside Lockheed, Boeing, Northrop,
[0:30:02 - 0:30:09] ▶
Bechtel, and a roster of private entities working on UFO technology.
[0:30:10 - 0:30:15] ▶
In 2001, a former Lockheed and CIA contractor went public saying that Lockheed is working
[0:30:15 - 0:30:21] ▶
on UFO technology and that scientists contracted with EG&G were organizing work in private labs
[0:30:21 - 0:30:28] ▶
A year after that, an infamous meeting would take place between scientist Eric Davis and
[0:30:29 - 0:30:34] ▶
Admiral Thomas Wilson, who oversaw basically all American military technology at the time.
[0:30:34 - 0:30:40] ▶
In this meeting, Wilson expressed extreme frustration at a covert UFO reverse engineering program
[0:30:40 - 0:30:47] ▶
being hidden from him.
[0:30:47 - 0:30:48] ▶
And the meeting happened to take place just outside of EG&G's Special Projects headquarters
[0:30:48 - 0:30:54] ▶
And in 2023, George Knapp was informed by a senior EG&G manager, Alfred O'Donnell, that
[0:30:55 - 0:31:02] ▶
they had recovered a flying saucer in New Mexico and had a live being that had human-like features.
[0:31:02 - 0:31:08] ▶
From the Manhattan Project, to Bluegill Triple Prime, to Area 51 and beyond, EG&G's fingerprints
[0:31:08 - 0:31:15] ▶
are everywhere in the UFO store.
[0:31:15 - 0:31:17] ▶
They don't just guard the doors, they manage the facilities where the technology is stored,
[0:31:18 - 0:31:22] ▶
where it's studied, and where the deepest layers of the UFO cover-up are kept alive.
[0:31:23 - 0:31:28] ▶
And as you'll see, it's a pattern that connects directly to what was happening at Cape Canaveral,
[0:31:28 - 0:31:33] ▶
where Dr. Rogers was working.
[0:31:34 - 0:31:35] ▶
But before we get back to that conversation, remember, for even deeper dives into parts
[0:31:35 - 0:31:41] ▶
of these interviews that don't make the final cut, check out the American Alchemy magazine
[0:31:41 - 0:31:46] ▶
The mysterious flight disappearance of Flight 19 that Rogers mentioned earlier?
[0:31:47 - 0:31:51] ▶
We've got the full story there.
[0:31:51 - 0:31:53] ▶
I'm putting the link in the description.
[0:31:54 - 0:31:55] ▶
Now back to Rogers' core testimony.
[0:31:56 - 0:31:58] ▶
Anyway, because they were operating, they also ran the healthcare clinics.
[0:31:58 - 0:32:03] ▶
And so they had a chief doctor, and so I had to oversee him.
[0:32:04 - 0:32:08] ▶
So I spent a lot of time with him.
[0:32:09 - 0:32:11] ▶
You know, we were buddies, got along.
[0:32:11 - 0:32:13] ▶
He had been there for many, many years.
[0:32:14 - 0:32:16] ▶
And so he actually knew a lot more about what was going on than I did.
[0:32:16 - 0:32:22] ▶
So I would go, and then he would say, hey, we've got new operations here, a new operation
[0:32:23 - 0:32:29] ▶
here, new operation here.
[0:32:29 - 0:32:30] ▶
I'm going to send my escort with you, and that way you can take a look at what we're doing.
[0:32:30 - 0:32:36] ▶
So on this particular day, I went out to the first set of buildings.
[0:32:36 - 0:32:40] ▶
I went to the second set of buildings.
[0:32:40 - 0:32:42] ▶
I went to the third set of buildings.
[0:32:42 - 0:32:43] ▶
Well, we were only going to look at three sets.
[0:32:45 - 0:32:48] ▶
So while we'd gone into the clean room and come out, as soon as, because it's a clean
[0:32:49 - 0:32:56] ▶
room, you have to take your little hair bonnet off.
[0:32:56 - 0:33:01] ▶
You had to take your gloves off.
[0:33:01 - 0:33:02] ▶
You had to take an outer jacket, like a lab coat, off.
[0:33:03 - 0:33:07] ▶
And then you had to take the booties off of your shoes.
[0:33:07 - 0:33:10] ▶
Well, he had done it so many times that he said, OK, see you, Doc.
[0:33:10 - 0:33:15] ▶
And he was out of there.
[0:33:16 - 0:33:17] ▶
So I was taking just a little bit of extra time.
[0:33:18 - 0:33:21] ▶
So maybe one or two minutes was all that separated the EG&G escort leaving the building from me
[0:33:21 - 0:33:30] ▶
leaving that building, I thought.
[0:33:30 - 0:33:32] ▶
Well, as I left that area, I went through this set of double doors.
[0:33:32 - 0:33:37] ▶
And there was a major that was standing there.
[0:33:37 - 0:33:40] ▶
And he immediately recognized me as the flight surgeon.
[0:33:40 - 0:33:44] ▶
But there were so many people that I did physicals on that I couldn't remember everybody.
[0:33:44 - 0:33:50] ▶
So I didn't even really recognize him.
[0:33:50 - 0:33:53] ▶
But he was smiling real big.
[0:33:53 - 0:33:57] ▶
And he said, I've got something to show you even you have never seen.
[0:33:57 - 0:34:02] ▶
Now, I believe the reason he said that was because with the EG&G contract, I went to probably
[0:34:02 - 0:34:09] ▶
80% of the buildings on Cape Canaveral.
[0:34:09 - 0:34:12] ▶
The people in a specific work site for compartmentalization, they could go to that building and then they
[0:34:12 - 0:34:20] ▶
left, but they couldn't go to any of the other buildings.
[0:34:20 - 0:34:23] ▶
That way, we didn't have cross-contamination of people learning things that they had no need
[0:34:23 - 0:34:30] ▶
So he knew I went all over the Cape, you know, on top of everything else.
[0:34:31 - 0:34:36] ▶
For a lot of the different sections, you had to have specific ID cards.
[0:34:36 - 0:34:44] ▶
So at the time, I probably had like 12 different ID cards.
[0:34:45 - 0:34:49] ▶
But, you know, he was anxious to show me something.
[0:34:52 - 0:34:55] ▶
So he said, I've got to show you this.
[0:34:55 - 0:34:57] ▶
So I said, okay, well, show it to me and, you know, let's get on with it.
[0:34:57 - 0:35:03] ▶
Do you think he's trying to impress you?
[0:35:03 - 0:35:05] ▶
Do you know the date?
[0:35:09 - 0:35:09] ▶
No, I would say it was in like April or May.
[0:35:10 - 0:35:15] ▶
It wasn't, it was a hot day, but it wasn't quite fully summer.
[0:35:15 - 0:35:19] ▶
Was it midday, towards the end of the day?
[0:35:19 - 0:35:22] ▶
It was probably, I would guess, about one or two o'clock in the afternoon.
[0:35:22 - 0:35:27] ▶
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Now back to the episode.
[0:36:54 - 0:36:55] ▶
So I'm anxious to get back to my clinic.
[0:36:55 - 0:36:58] ▶
Our clinic would close at 4 to 4.30.
[0:36:59 - 0:37:02] ▶
And so anything that had gone on while I was gone, I would have to deal with when I got
[0:37:03 - 0:37:08] ▶
So I was interested in getting back.
[0:37:08 - 0:37:11] ▶
Well, he took me inside this office that was there.
[0:37:11 - 0:37:17] ▶
And, you know, that didn't seem unusual.
[0:37:18 - 0:37:20] ▶
There was a door and then there were two or three windows there.
[0:37:20 - 0:37:25] ▶
And they all had louvered blinds on them.
[0:37:25 - 0:37:27] ▶
Well, as soon as he took me inside there, he shut the door and locked it.
[0:37:28 - 0:37:32] ▶
And then he closed the louvered blinds for the door.
[0:37:32 - 0:37:35] ▶
And then he closed the louvered blinds for all of these windows.
[0:37:35 - 0:37:38] ▶
So I'm thinking, what's he doing?
[0:37:38 - 0:37:42] ▶
You know, this is kind of strange.
[0:37:43 - 0:37:46] ▶
Well, he sat down at his computer console.
[0:37:47 - 0:37:50] ▶
And so he turned it on.
[0:37:50 - 0:37:51] ▶
And he turned on his video apparatus, you know, computer screen.
[0:37:51 - 0:37:57] ▶
And so I'm just sort of sitting there talking.
[0:37:58 - 0:38:02] ▶
But he's talking kind of excited.
[0:38:02 - 0:38:04] ▶
So I'm mainly just listening, you know, OK, this guy's excited about something, you know,
[0:38:04 - 0:38:12] ▶
So when the screen finally came up, he did something, you know, to sort of fine tune it,
[0:38:14 - 0:38:21] ▶
I guess, or something.
[0:38:21 - 0:38:22] ▶
And then all of a sudden he said, sit down here.
[0:38:22 - 0:38:25] ▶
So he moved to the seat next to his chair.
[0:38:25 - 0:38:29] ▶
And I sat down in his chair.
[0:38:29 - 0:38:31] ▶
And when I sat down in his chair, I looked at his screen.
[0:38:31 - 0:38:35] ▶
And I was totally shocked.
[0:38:36 - 0:38:38] ▶
It was a closed circuit television feed.
[0:38:39 - 0:38:42] ▶
And it had no identification of classification, location where it was coming from, the time
[0:38:42 - 0:38:53] ▶
of day it was, anything about it.
[0:38:53 - 0:38:56] ▶
The screen was completely clean.
[0:38:56 - 0:38:58] ▶
All I could see was this closed circuit television feed.
[0:38:58 - 0:39:03] ▶
How did you know it was a closed circuit feed?
[0:39:03 - 0:39:04] ▶
Because that's what it looked like.
[0:39:06 - 0:39:08] ▶
I'd seen dozens and dozens of them.
[0:39:13 - 0:39:15] ▶
And, you know, here's another one.
[0:39:16 - 0:39:17] ▶
And it was just like all of the others.
[0:39:18 - 0:39:24] ▶
There was nothing special about it except for what was on the screen.
[0:39:24 - 0:39:28] ▶
And so when I looked at it, there were two guys over to the right lower hand.
[0:39:28 - 0:39:34] ▶
And they looked like engineer types to me because they had on lab coats.
[0:39:35 - 0:39:40] ▶
This is in the frame on the screen.
[0:39:40 - 0:39:42] ▶
This is in the frame on the screen.
[0:39:42 - 0:39:44] ▶
Well, over to the right, there were three guys.
[0:39:45 - 0:39:48] ▶
And they had Tyvek suits, I would call them now.
[0:39:48 - 0:39:54] ▶
And they were standing there talking.
[0:39:55 - 0:39:58] ▶
And right in between them, there's a saucer.
[0:39:58 - 0:40:02] ▶
I would say it's a flying saucer, but it wasn't flying yet.
[0:40:02 - 0:40:05] ▶
But there's a saucer 20 feet across.
[0:40:06 - 0:40:08] ▶
It was sort of like a modified egg.
[0:40:09 - 0:40:12] ▶
The surface was completely smooth.
[0:40:12 - 0:40:15] ▶
There were no rivets, no seams, no windows, nothing that I could see.
[0:40:15 - 0:40:24] ▶
Do you know what color it was?
[0:40:26 - 0:40:27] ▶
Oh, it was pearly white.
[0:40:27 - 0:40:29] ▶
And was it an egg or was it a saucer?
[0:40:30 - 0:40:32] ▶
Well, it was a saucer that was shaped.
[0:40:33 - 0:40:36] ▶
You know, an egg is a little off-center.
[0:40:36 - 0:40:39] ▶
If you could modify the egg to where it wasn't off-center,
[0:40:39 - 0:40:43] ▶
that's sort of what it would look like.
[0:40:43 - 0:40:45] ▶
So it was like, yeah, I can totally picture.
[0:40:46 - 0:40:48] ▶
So it's like a pancake or something with some...
[0:40:48 - 0:40:51] ▶
Yeah, a really thick pancake.
[0:40:51 - 0:40:53] ▶
Yes, with some concave ends or whatever.
[0:40:54 - 0:40:57] ▶
Now then, there were...
[0:40:58 - 0:41:02] ▶
Because this was pearly white, I mean, you couldn't see anything else on it.
[0:41:02 - 0:41:07] ▶
There were black rectangles that had been, I assume, painted onto the vehicle.
[0:41:07 - 0:41:14] ▶
So along the beam, about 60% of the spacecraft was above and 40% below,
[0:41:15 - 0:41:23] ▶
but it had this beam that went across.
[0:41:23 - 0:41:25] ▶
From the 1230 to 230 point, there was a horizontal rectangle that was pure black.
[0:41:26 - 0:41:35] ▶
And then from the 330 to 530, it was pure black.
[0:41:35 - 0:41:40] ▶
And then as I saw motion later, I could tell that at 630 to 830,
[0:41:40 - 0:41:44] ▶
there was a horizontal rectangle that was black and another one at the 930 to 1130.
[0:41:45 - 0:41:52] ▶
So along the beam, these four rectangles covered most of the area.
[0:41:53 - 0:42:00] ▶
Now then, at what I would call the 3 o'clock position, there was a vertical rectangle.
[0:42:00 - 0:42:07] ▶
And I could barely see something at the 6 o'clock position,
[0:42:08 - 0:42:13] ▶
but as I saw it moving later, I could tell that there was the same rectangle at 3 o'clock,
[0:42:13 - 0:42:19] ▶
6 o'clock, and 9 o'clock.
[0:42:19 - 0:42:21] ▶
Aside from that, it was just pearly white.
[0:42:21 - 0:42:26] ▶
I immediately thought, you know, this is a test bed program.
[0:42:29 - 0:42:34] ▶
You know, this is an experimental vehicle.
[0:42:34 - 0:42:36] ▶
And they've had to paint the rectangles so that they could watch the motion.
[0:42:36 - 0:42:42] ▶
Well, at the 12 o'clock position, there was something that I could sort of see but not really see.
[0:42:42 - 0:42:53] ▶
But then later on, it rotated clockwise.
[0:42:53 - 0:42:58] ▶
And when I saw it, it was clear as day.
[0:42:58 - 0:43:01] ▶
It said U.S. Air Force.
[0:43:01 - 0:43:02] ▶
And then just above that was an Air Force flight insignia.
[0:43:02 - 0:43:05] ▶
And so the craft rotated.
[0:43:06 - 0:43:09] ▶
Well, it was initially on the floor.
[0:43:10 - 0:43:14] ▶
And then all of a sudden, it just lifted off, just light as a feather.
[0:43:14 - 0:43:20] ▶
If I had not been watching it, I might not have even seen it.
[0:43:21 - 0:43:25] ▶
It was such smooth motion.
[0:43:25 - 0:43:27] ▶
So now all of a sudden, it's floating 3 feet up.
[0:43:27 - 0:43:31] ▶
Well, the nose of it started to – it didn't have a nose,
[0:43:31 - 0:43:37] ▶
but what I'm identifying as the 12 o'clock position,
[0:43:37 - 0:43:40] ▶
began to rotate clockwise and went one full circle 360 degrees.
[0:43:40 - 0:43:47] ▶
Then it paused for a few moments, and then it rotated back 360 degrees the other way
[0:43:47 - 0:43:55] ▶
so that it was in exactly the same place it had started.
[0:43:55 - 0:43:58] ▶
But this had given me a complete view of the entire craft.
[0:43:58 - 0:44:04] ▶
And, you know, if it did not have the black markings,
[0:44:05 - 0:44:09] ▶
it didn't have the U.S. Air Force on it or the Air Force insignia,
[0:44:09 - 0:44:16] ▶
it was so pearly white that even if it had rotated,
[0:44:17 - 0:44:21] ▶
I don't know that I could have detected the motion.
[0:44:21 - 0:44:24] ▶
So with those rectangles on there and the markings, I could see the rotation.
[0:44:24 - 0:44:30] ▶
And you saw U.S. Air Force.
[0:44:31 - 0:44:32] ▶
And I saw U.S. Air Force on it.
[0:44:32 - 0:44:34] ▶
And so these two guys in the room, what are they doing?
[0:44:34 - 0:44:37] ▶
Well, everybody left before they initiated action.
[0:44:37 - 0:44:42] ▶
I should have said that.
[0:44:42 - 0:44:43] ▶
But this sort of, like, warning beacon went off and tells everybody,
[0:44:44 - 0:44:49] ▶
okay, get out of the way.
[0:44:49 - 0:44:50] ▶
We're about to do this.
[0:44:50 - 0:44:51] ▶
So it was like some sort of test or something.
[0:44:51 - 0:44:53] ▶
I absolutely believe that this was the test of a prototype flying saucer.
[0:44:54 - 0:45:04] ▶
And I believe it was probably owned by a defense contractor
[0:45:05 - 0:45:10] ▶
and was not part of the U.S. Air Force inventory.
[0:45:10 - 0:45:13] ▶
Do you have any sense of which defense contractor might have owned it?
[0:45:13 - 0:45:16] ▶
There was nothing that gave me a clue.
[0:45:16 - 0:45:20] ▶
So whatever I came up with would be speculation on my part.
[0:45:21 - 0:45:27] ▶
But, like, I don't know, maybe EG&G, given that.
[0:45:27 - 0:45:30] ▶
It wouldn't have been EG&G.
[0:45:31 - 0:45:32] ▶
It would have been something like Lockheed or Northrop.
[0:45:32 - 0:45:38] ▶
That would have been a little bit of a big thing for Raytheon by themselves.
[0:45:43 - 0:45:47] ▶
But they could have certainly been in partnership with the consortium,
[0:45:47 - 0:45:52] ▶
you know, Martin Marietta.
[0:45:54 - 0:45:55] ▶
At the time, this is 92, Lockheed and Martin Marietta had not joined into Lockheed Martin yet.
[0:45:55 - 0:46:02] ▶
So in 95, they did that.
[0:46:03 - 0:46:04] ▶
But somebody owns this thing.
[0:46:05 - 0:46:07] ▶
And I did not believe it's the U.S. Air Force.
[0:46:07 - 0:46:10] ▶
Every time, you know, when we wanted to have the F-117,
[0:46:11 - 0:46:16] ▶
we didn't start off with the F-117.
[0:46:17 - 0:46:20] ▶
Back in the 70s, we started with what's called the Have Blue system.
[0:46:20 - 0:46:24] ▶
And so it was a primitive attempt to try to show that we could do this.
[0:46:24 - 0:46:30] ▶
Once we had the Have Blue system working and functioning,
[0:46:30 - 0:46:36] ▶
then the Air Force said, okay, we're going to give you a contract.
[0:46:37 - 0:46:41] ▶
We want you to build this many F-117s.
[0:46:43 - 0:46:47] ▶
And so they modified it and improved it and then made the actual F-117.
[0:46:47 - 0:46:53] ▶
And then the Air Force paid them for it.
[0:46:53 - 0:46:56] ▶
And it went into the Air Force inventory.
[0:46:57 - 0:46:59] ▶
So at that point, the Air Force owned it.
[0:47:00 - 0:47:02] ▶
But when it was Have Blue and it was the preliminary designs,
[0:47:02 - 0:47:09] ▶
the U.S. Air Force did not own that, even though it had U.S. Air Force markings.
[0:47:09 - 0:47:13] ▶
It was owned by Lockheed Skunk Works.
[0:47:13 - 0:47:20] ▶
And so you're looking at this craft.
[0:47:20 - 0:47:22] ▶
Do you have any sense of, outside of the U.S. Air Force insignia on it,
[0:47:22 - 0:47:26] ▶
whether it is extraterrestrial or not from here or whether it is from here?
[0:47:27 - 0:47:33] ▶
When I saw this thing, I looked over at the guy and I said,
[0:47:33 - 0:47:37] ▶
who would design something like that?
[0:47:38 - 0:47:40] ▶
And he said, I can't tell you.
[0:47:40 - 0:47:42] ▶
But then when I said, well, why would we build it in a design like this?
[0:47:42 - 0:47:49] ▶
This is exactly what he did.
[0:47:49 - 0:47:51] ▶
He looked at me and went, we got it from them.
[0:47:52 - 0:47:55] ▶
So, I mean, I don't have to figure out what that means.
[0:47:58 - 0:48:01] ▶
But that was exactly what he said.
[0:48:02 - 0:48:05] ▶
We got it from them.
[0:48:05 - 0:48:06] ▶
Now, then one of the characteristics of this thing was that as soon as it became activated,
[0:48:06 - 0:48:11] ▶
there were electromagnetic discharges across the surface of the vehicle.
[0:48:12 - 0:48:18] ▶
But I could not detect any sort of structure for what was producing those signals.
[0:48:18 - 0:48:27] ▶
You know, if you see a little patch on the side of an aircraft, you can say, oh, well,
[0:48:28 - 0:48:35] ▶
either that's an electronic marker.
[0:48:36 - 0:48:40] ▶
Or, you know, these days we even have radars that are having a very small location.
[0:48:40 - 0:48:51] ▶
But there was nothing like that.
[0:48:51 - 0:48:52] ▶
Nothing to generate the electromagnetic anomalies.
[0:48:54 - 0:48:56] ▶
It was pearly white.
[0:48:56 - 0:48:58] ▶
How could you even see electromagnetic anomalies around the craft just through video footage?
[0:48:59 - 0:49:03] ▶
Well, first of all, I also heard them.
[0:49:03 - 0:49:06] ▶
But it was like little sparks just like this.
[0:49:06 - 0:49:09] ▶
Like static discharge.
[0:49:10 - 0:49:11] ▶
And so it was going on all over.
[0:49:13 - 0:49:15] ▶
It was if the vehicle itself was charged up or something.
[0:49:16 - 0:49:19] ▶
The vehicle appeared to be making the electrical discharges.
[0:49:20 - 0:49:26] ▶
Were there any transformers or power sources?
[0:49:27 - 0:49:29] ▶
Well, at the top of the craft, there was a pole.
[0:49:29 - 0:49:34] ▶
And going up from the pole, there were three lines that impressed me as umbilicals.
[0:49:35 - 0:49:43] ▶
So they may have been feeding electricity to it.
[0:49:44 - 0:49:47] ▶
They may have been feeding electrical controls, whatever.
[0:49:47 - 0:49:52] ▶
Now, that's one of the reasons that I immediately thought that it was a contractor model.
[0:49:52 - 0:50:00] ▶
Because you can't fly in air or space with umbilicals tied to your craft.
[0:50:00 - 0:50:10] ▶
So I felt like that what this indicated to me was that on the inside, they did not have sufficient power source, control mechanism, anything.
[0:50:10 - 0:50:24] ▶
And so through the umbilicals, they were having to feed this information into the vehicle to make it function properly.
[0:50:25 - 0:50:34] ▶
So if it was a more mature platform, it should have had all of these things internal to the spacecraft without having to have umbilicals feeding into it to provide it power and information or whatever else it was.
[0:50:34 - 0:50:54] ▶
Did you get any other context?
[0:50:54 - 0:50:56] ▶
Did you say, where are we?
[0:50:56 - 0:50:57] ▶
Where's this video porting into?
[0:50:57 - 0:50:59] ▶
Or what do you mean we got it from them?
[0:50:59 - 0:51:01] ▶
No, well, the thing is, by this time, I had watched it levitate, rotate 360, rotate counterclockwise 360.
[0:51:01 - 0:51:12] ▶
It had moved left and right, forward and backwards.
[0:51:12 - 0:51:15] ▶
It moved left and right?
[0:51:15 - 0:51:16] ▶
Did it move smoothly?
[0:51:16 - 0:51:17] ▶
Oh, yeah, very smoothly.
[0:51:17 - 0:51:19] ▶
It's just like, you know, if you're playing a video game for the first time and you've got an aircraft and you want to try out the controls to make sure it works right.
[0:51:19 - 0:51:31] ▶
Was it enveloped in any sort of bubble or something?
[0:51:32 - 0:51:35] ▶
A lot of people say that.
[0:51:35 - 0:51:36] ▶
These electromagnetic discharges were audible.
[0:51:40 - 0:51:44] ▶
You could hear them and you could see them.
[0:51:44 - 0:51:48] ▶
But it was sort of like there was an electromagnetic cover on it, almost like a plasma shield that had formed on it.
[0:51:48 - 0:52:07] ▶
Now, when I think of it moving, if it was moving according to the sheer electromagnetic forces for it to rise up, those forces should have been aimed down.
[0:52:07 - 0:52:26] ▶
That's not what happened.
[0:52:27 - 0:52:29] ▶
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When I saw initially lift off the ground, there were maybe three or four electromagnetic signals generated each second.
[0:54:11 - 0:54:24] ▶
Little just static, sparky thing.
[0:54:24 - 0:54:26] ▶
But the thing is, they were totally random.
[0:54:26 - 0:54:29] ▶
There wasn't anything, you know, if you want it to move this way, you know, there's a bunch of them over here.
[0:54:30 - 0:54:36] ▶
It was moving, you know, when it was moving back and forth.
[0:54:36 - 0:54:43] ▶
Sometimes, like when it was moving backward, I don't believe there were any electromagnetic discharges on that end of the craft.
[0:54:43 - 0:54:54] ▶
And I don't think there were really any on the opposite end.
[0:54:55 - 0:54:58] ▶
It was more across the top and bottom surface of the vehicle.
[0:54:59 - 0:55:04] ▶
So, that caused me to immediately believe the electromagnet discharges are there,
[0:55:04 - 0:55:11] ▶
but the electromagnet discharges are not what is moving this thing.
[0:55:12 - 0:55:15] ▶
Do you have a sense of what might have been moving the thing?
[0:55:16 - 0:55:19] ▶
It had to be a force that I was unfamiliar with.
[0:55:21 - 0:55:26] ▶
Okay, so when this guy next to you is saying it came from them.
[0:55:28 - 0:55:33] ▶
Do you get any more context on that?
[0:55:34 - 0:55:37] ▶
In like the next few seconds, the 12 o'clock position rose to a 45 degree angle.
[0:55:41 - 0:55:49] ▶
That's almost like the Commander David Fravor thing, where it's like, it goes boop, you know?
[0:55:52 - 0:55:56] ▶
Now then, I flew helicopters and I flew F-16s.
[0:55:57 - 0:56:03] ▶
No vehicle I have ever known of could obtain a 45 degree angle of attack without moving.
[0:56:04 - 0:56:13] ▶
A helicopter will get a 45 degree angle of attack, no problem.
[0:56:13 - 0:56:18] ▶
But as soon as you do that, you're going to have the force vector point forward.
[0:56:19 - 0:56:25] ▶
And so, the rotor is going to move the opposite direction.
[0:56:25 - 0:56:29] ▶
So, there's no vehicle that I know of that could obtain that 45 degree angle of attack.
[0:56:29 - 0:56:38] ▶
But just then, there was a knock on the window.
[0:56:39 - 0:56:44] ▶
So, somebody said, hey, what's going on in there that the doors are locked?
[0:56:44 - 0:56:52] ▶
Well, man, this guy panics.
[0:56:52 - 0:56:53] ▶
He shuts off the computer and the console.
[0:56:54 - 0:56:56] ▶
He looks at me and says, don't tell anyone I showed you this.
[0:56:56 - 0:56:59] ▶
You know, I'm thinking, you just showed me a flying saucer.
[0:57:01 - 0:57:03] ▶
Who am I going to tell it to?
[0:57:03 - 0:57:05] ▶
So, he goes over and he unlocks the door.
[0:57:05 - 0:57:08] ▶
And this lieutenant colonel came in.
[0:57:08 - 0:57:10] ▶
And we were both majors, so he outranks us.
[0:57:10 - 0:57:13] ▶
And then there were two other guys.
[0:57:14 - 0:57:15] ▶
I think they were captains.
[0:57:15 - 0:57:16] ▶
And so, the lieutenant colonel comes in and says, what's going on in here?
[0:57:17 - 0:57:22] ▶
What are you guys up to?
[0:57:22 - 0:57:22] ▶
Is the room just like dedicated to like feeding into wherever this UFO is located?
[0:57:25 - 0:57:32] ▶
Well, it's a set of computer consoles.
[0:57:32 - 0:57:38] ▶
There were four people.
[0:57:39 - 0:57:39] ▶
There were four computer consoles.
[0:57:40 - 0:57:41] ▶
It didn't look any different from any other four computer consoles.
[0:57:42 - 0:57:46] ▶
But were you in the room alone with the one guy?
[0:57:46 - 0:57:48] ▶
I was alone with him for a total of maybe 15 minutes.
[0:57:48 - 0:57:53] ▶
But as soon as they knocked on the door and opened it, now there's five of us in there.
[0:57:53 - 0:57:59] ▶
Before we get into that, one final question.
[0:57:59 - 0:58:02] ▶
Do you have any sense on the location of the craft?
[0:58:02 - 0:58:04] ▶
You know, where you're feeding into in this?
[0:58:04 - 0:58:06] ▶
If I were to guess, the Lockheed Skunk Works would be one of the tops of the list.
[0:58:09 - 0:58:14] ▶
Area 51 would be at the top of the list.
[0:58:16 - 0:58:18] ▶
I would think Wright-Patterson would be at the top of the list.
[0:58:21 - 0:58:26] ▶
It could be a different location on Cape Canaveral that I don't know about.
[0:58:26 - 0:58:31] ▶
It could have been at the Dugway Proving Grounds or Twilly out there.
[0:58:32 - 0:58:41] ▶
You know, I have no idea where it is.
[0:58:42 - 0:58:43] ▶
But it also gave me no indications where it was.
[0:58:43 - 0:58:48] ▶
So everybody storms into the room all of a sudden.
[0:58:53 - 0:58:56] ▶
So who's in the room at this point?
[0:58:56 - 0:58:57] ▶
The major that showed it to me?
[0:59:00 - 0:59:01] ▶
A lieutenant colonel.
[0:59:01 - 0:59:02] ▶
And I believe it was two captains.
[0:59:03 - 0:59:04] ▶
So the major says, well, I had this skin lesion that I thought might be cancerous.
[0:59:04 - 0:59:11] ▶
So I just wanted to show it to the doc.
[0:59:11 - 0:59:14] ▶
And that's why I closed the door for my privacy.
[0:59:14 - 0:59:16] ▶
Well, now everybody turns and looks at me.
[0:59:17 - 0:59:20] ▶
And I'm sitting there.
[0:59:20 - 0:59:21] ▶
I just saw a flying saucer.
[0:59:22 - 0:59:23] ▶
I mean, this is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen at this point.
[0:59:24 - 0:59:30] ▶
But my mind is racing.
[0:59:31 - 0:59:33] ▶
If there had been any degree of classification that was indicated on that video, I would have
[0:59:34 - 0:59:41] ▶
had to immediately report this guy.
[0:59:41 - 0:59:43] ▶
Because if that had showed classified and he showed it to me in an improper fashion, I'm
[0:59:44 - 0:59:52] ▶
But it didn't say classified.
[0:59:52 - 0:59:54] ▶
So I'm looking at him.
[0:59:55 - 0:59:56] ▶
And then I'm also thinking, well, this guy couldn't have found out about it unless somebody
[0:59:57 - 1:00:01] ▶
Now, if this lieutenant colonel showed him and I report it, then I'm also going to have
[1:00:03 - 1:00:08] ▶
to report to lieutenant colonel.
[1:00:08 - 1:00:09] ▶
I'm going to have to go up their chain of command.
[1:00:09 - 1:00:11] ▶
I'm going to have to go to his commander and say, they showed me a flying saucer video.
[1:00:12 - 1:00:16] ▶
Now, then, if they came back in here and said, well, put it up on the screen.
[1:00:16 - 1:00:21] ▶
And nobody could find it.
[1:00:21 - 1:00:23] ▶
Nobody could find it.
[1:00:24 - 1:00:26] ▶
Then my story would make me look like an idiot.
[1:00:26 - 1:00:29] ▶
Not only that, but when I got back to my clinic, I would have to go to my commander and say,
[1:00:29 - 1:00:41] ▶
Colonel, sir, sorry about that.
[1:00:41 - 1:00:43] ▶
But I just saw a flying saucer and I reported to security and to the chain of command.
[1:00:43 - 1:00:49] ▶
And the general is probably going to hear about it.
[1:00:49 - 1:00:54] ▶
And then it's probably going to blossom from there with all of the people that are going
[1:00:54 - 1:01:00] ▶
to hear about this flying saucer.
[1:01:00 - 1:01:03] ▶
So I'm sitting there thinking, you know, this is a career decision for me.
[1:01:04 - 1:01:08] ▶
So I just said, it wasn't cancer.
[1:01:08 - 1:01:12] ▶
And I booked it out of there.
[1:01:17 - 1:01:19] ▶
Thinking on your feet.
[1:01:20 - 1:01:21] ▶
I drove 30 minutes down to Patrick and I'm thinking this whole time.
[1:01:21 - 1:01:26] ▶
And, you know, I have heard pilots and astronauts talk about things they have seen that they failed
[1:01:26 - 1:01:37] ▶
Well, as I'm driving down Highway A1A, I'm sitting there thinking, man, I'm going to join
[1:01:38 - 1:01:46] ▶
I am not going to report this thing.
[1:01:47 - 1:01:49] ▶
So what, yeah, what makes you even higher conviction that that's the right thing to do?
[1:01:49 - 1:01:53] ▶
So obviously you don't want some big bureaucratic blow up.
[1:01:53 - 1:01:55] ▶
You don't want this guy to get in trouble maybe because he was just trying to impress
[1:01:56 - 1:01:59] ▶
But you also, you don't want to get like, you know, kind of drug through the mud about
[1:02:00 - 1:02:04] ▶
like what you saw and interrogated and that sort of thing.
[1:02:04 - 1:02:07] ▶
If I went back and said, I saw a flying saucer, I have no idea what it would have done to my
[1:02:07 - 1:02:13] ▶
So, you know, in 1992, you just didn't report flying saucers.
[1:02:15 - 1:02:20] ▶
It doesn't matter what you see, you can talk about it in the debrief.
[1:02:20 - 1:02:25] ▶
But when you write the debrief, you're not going to put that in there.
[1:02:26 - 1:02:29] ▶
Did you get the vibe that the lieutenant colonel or, you know, the captain had any sense of,
[1:02:30 - 1:02:36] ▶
you know, what that room might be feeding into as far as footage of this, you know, UFO?
[1:02:36 - 1:02:42] ▶
Since the computer screen was off, when they came in, I have no knowledge then or now whether
[1:02:42 - 1:02:51] ▶
or not they had seen that video.
[1:02:51 - 1:02:54] ▶
They might have seen it 30 minutes earlier and shown it to the major.
[1:02:55 - 1:03:00] ▶
Does any part of you think that this could have been some sort of elaborate psyop?
[1:03:02 - 1:03:06] ▶
Well, if so, it was one of the most random things ever.
[1:03:06 - 1:03:14] ▶
Because that was the only time I ever went to that building.
[1:03:14 - 1:03:17] ▶
If I had been a little bit quicker in taking off my hair bonnet, my gloves, my lab coat,
[1:03:18 - 1:03:30] ▶
and my booties and walked out at the same time as my escort, I don't think that guy would
[1:03:30 - 1:03:37] ▶
have even broached the subject.
[1:03:37 - 1:03:39] ▶
It never would have happened.
[1:03:39 - 1:03:39] ▶
Let's talk about something a lot of us quietly deal with.
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This is something that messes with your confidence more than you'd expect.
[1:03:45 - 1:03:48] ▶
You might be wondering, Jesse, you clearly don't suffer from this.
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The biggest issue I face is hat hair.
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I actually have very thick hair, but one of my good friends deals with hair loss.
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So when iRestore sent me their iRestore Elite, I gifted it to him, and I've been amazed at
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the results it gave him.
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The first thing that stood out to him is it's comfortable and easy to use.
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He says that his hair feels thicker and healthier, and it's improved his overall confidence in
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If I'm by myself, he mentions it.
[1:05:28 - 1:05:31] ▶
But if I'm with an EG&G Escorts, I don't think he would bring it up in any way, shape,
[1:05:31 - 1:05:38] ▶
What do you think his incentive was to...
[1:05:38 - 1:05:41] ▶
Because it's like he didn't have a prior relationship with you, right?
[1:05:41 - 1:05:44] ▶
He didn't know who you were, essentially, right?
[1:05:44 - 1:05:47] ▶
Well, he knew who I was.
[1:05:47 - 1:05:48] ▶
I might have done his physical a year and a half before.
[1:05:49 - 1:05:52] ▶
But you guys weren't close friends.
[1:05:53 - 1:05:55] ▶
It's like when you're an ER doctor and you're busy all day long.
[1:05:56 - 1:06:02] ▶
So you probably knew everybody.
[1:06:03 - 1:06:04] ▶
You see the people...
[1:06:04 - 1:06:08] ▶
But there are times that if you're really busy, someone says, what about the heart attack
[1:06:08 - 1:06:14] ▶
Well, do you mean the first one or the second one?
[1:06:14 - 1:06:17] ▶
And then, you know, six months later, somebody comes up to you and Walmart says, hey, my
[1:06:17 - 1:06:24] ▶
shoulder's doing better.
[1:06:24 - 1:06:25] ▶
You know, I don't know who that person is, but you took care of my shoulder.
[1:06:29 - 1:06:34] ▶
Remember, you gave me an injection?
[1:06:34 - 1:06:35] ▶
I'm glad it feels better.
[1:06:38 - 1:06:39] ▶
It's doing better now?
[1:06:40 - 1:06:41] ▶
It's really doing good.
[1:06:41 - 1:06:42] ▶
A lot of these people probably have asymmetric relationships with you.
[1:06:43 - 1:06:47] ▶
Like, they're very grateful to you.
[1:06:47 - 1:06:48] ▶
And then to you, it's like another number, you know, one of a thousand or whatever.
[1:06:48 - 1:06:53] ▶
So this guy, have you thought of what his motives might have been as far as showing you
[1:06:53 - 1:06:59] ▶
this, you know, camera feed?
[1:06:59 - 1:07:01] ▶
Let's think about human basic nature.
[1:07:04 - 1:07:06] ▶
If somebody flips a pop bottle and it lands exactly on top and doesn't break and it doesn't
[1:07:06 - 1:07:21] ▶
fall over and they say, wow, look what I did.
[1:07:21 - 1:07:24] ▶
Someone walking by and they say, hey, look what I did with the pop bottle.
[1:07:25 - 1:07:28] ▶
Well, you know, we as humans like to share things.
[1:07:28 - 1:07:32] ▶
There have been plenty of other times that when something happens, they say, hey, doc,
[1:07:33 - 1:07:40] ▶
I know you're not supposed to watch this, but I know you work on the space shuttle, so
[1:07:40 - 1:07:47] ▶
And so, you know, when I was on the submarine, they took me into the sonar room.
[1:07:47 - 1:07:53] ▶
That's a great example.
[1:07:53 - 1:07:54] ▶
They were not supposed to take me into the sonar room.
[1:07:54 - 1:07:57] ▶
Or let you drive the submarine.
[1:07:57 - 1:07:59] ▶
Or drive the submarine.
[1:07:59 - 1:08:00] ▶
But we're on a cruise and they said, hey, doc, we're not really supposed to show you this,
[1:08:01 - 1:08:07] ▶
but we want you to see how good our sonar is.
[1:08:07 - 1:08:11] ▶
And so they took me into the sonar room and showed stuff.
[1:08:11 - 1:08:14] ▶
Well, they weren't really supposed to do that, but it's not like I'm going to go tell anybody
[1:08:14 - 1:08:18] ▶
what their sonar stuff is.
[1:08:18 - 1:08:19] ▶
So you think he was trying to impress you?
[1:08:19 - 1:08:21] ▶
Oh, he was obviously trying to impress me.
[1:08:21 - 1:08:23] ▶
And do you think on some level, you know, maybe he wasn't supposed to know about this
[1:08:23 - 1:08:28] ▶
footage to begin with because he was just a major, right?
[1:08:28 - 1:08:31] ▶
Well, a lot of times you could be a tech sergeant enlisted, but you have a reason to know what's
[1:08:31 - 1:08:43] ▶
And so that tech sergeant is read into a program, whereas the major is not.
[1:08:43 - 1:08:49] ▶
So the major may say, hey, what was that thing you were working with?
[1:08:50 - 1:08:56] ▶
And the tech sergeant says, sorry, sir, I can't tell you.
[1:08:56 - 1:08:59] ▶
So the point is seniority doesn't necessitate, you know, more information in all these cases,
[1:09:01 - 1:09:06] ▶
especially, you know, it's very hard to shape the contours of, you know, some covert UFO
[1:09:06 - 1:09:13] ▶
But I've heard this many times of people who are superior in rank not being aware of the
[1:09:14 - 1:09:18] ▶
program and then middle manager types, you know, being in charge in many cases.
[1:09:18 - 1:09:23] ▶
For security, there's two things that you need.
[1:09:23 - 1:09:25] ▶
One of them is a sufficient classification that you have been personally granted.
[1:09:26 - 1:09:32] ▶
And the other one is, it doesn't matter what your classification is.
[1:09:32 - 1:09:36] ▶
If you don't have a need to know, you're not supposed to know that.
[1:09:36 - 1:09:40] ▶
Did you ever see that guy again, the major?
[1:09:40 - 1:09:42] ▶
I never saw that guy again.
[1:09:42 - 1:09:44] ▶
And I assure you, I never went back to that building.
[1:09:44 - 1:09:46] ▶
And since then, have you thought about, you know, I think EG&G is an interesting vector.
[1:09:48 - 1:09:54] ▶
You know, they came out of MIT, Doc Edgerton, you know, I think they formalized as a company
[1:09:55 - 1:10:01] ▶
in like the 50s or so, come out of the kind of atomic era and are responsible for a lot of
[1:10:01 - 1:10:07] ▶
interesting kind of, you know, deep black work for the for the US government.
[1:10:07 - 1:10:10] ▶
Have you thought about them at all?
[1:10:10 - 1:10:12] ▶
Because, you know, another good example is Bob Lazar.
[1:10:12 - 1:10:15] ▶
And, you know, the 80s was, you know, supposedly stationed at Area 51 S4.
[1:10:15 - 1:10:21] ▶
He gets a job through Edward Teller, but he specifically gets a job with EG&G.
[1:10:21 - 1:10:27] ▶
And EG&G pops up elsewhere.
[1:10:27 - 1:10:29] ▶
In 1997, you have Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, who is, you know, under
[1:10:29 - 1:10:37] ▶
his purview is all, you know, technical capabilities of, you know, US military.
[1:10:37 - 1:10:42] ▶
And he's meeting with Dr. Eric Davis, and they're in the EG&G parking lot.
[1:10:42 - 1:10:47] ▶
And he's expressing extreme frustration that he doesn't have oversight over these sort of
[1:10:47 - 1:10:54] ▶
So do you think EG&G might play a part in the UFO story?
[1:10:55 - 1:10:59] ▶
EG&G is all over the military.
[1:10:59 - 1:11:02] ▶
For me to guess which contractor had the precedent on which project, I couldn't know.
[1:11:02 - 1:11:13] ▶
But EG&G had their fingerprints all over Cape Canaveral.
[1:11:13 - 1:11:18] ▶
They were the prime contractor.
[1:11:20 - 1:11:22] ▶
Everybody functioned with EG&G, regardless of the other contractors and what they were doing
[1:11:22 - 1:11:32] ▶
That's so fascinating.
[1:11:33 - 1:11:34] ▶
And they were interested also in psychic research.
[1:11:35 - 1:11:38] ▶
They were doing some really out there stuff on the kind of psionic, psychic parapsychology
[1:11:38 - 1:11:44] ▶
And then also on the exotic propulsion side.
[1:11:44 - 1:11:47] ▶
They were also in charge of atomic testing.
[1:11:47 - 1:11:50] ▶
And if you think about, you know, where UFOs show up, they show up around, you know, sensitive
[1:11:51 - 1:11:55] ▶
One example is I interviewed a guy named Harold Malmgren.
[1:11:57 - 1:12:00] ▶
I don't know if you're familiar with him.
[1:12:00 - 1:12:01] ▶
But he was a presidential advisor for JFK, Nixon, Kennedy, and Ford.
[1:12:01 - 1:12:07] ▶
And, or sorry, he was a presidential advisor for JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford.
[1:12:08 - 1:12:13] ▶
And he was in charge of costing these sort of, you know, ICBM defense systems for basically
[1:12:13 - 1:12:25] ▶
taking out Russian ICBMs.
[1:12:25 - 1:12:26] ▶
And it was this sort of nuclear detonation combined with this x-ray projection that would
[1:12:27 - 1:12:32] ▶
take out sort of anything in its vicinity.
[1:12:32 - 1:12:33] ▶
And EG&G was responsible for getting the footage of these atomic tests.
[1:12:34 - 1:12:39] ▶
And so, you know, I found that to be very fascinating that even they were involved back then.
[1:12:39 - 1:12:46] ▶
And, you know, literally the optical footage around the most sensitive atomic tests where,
[1:12:46 - 1:12:52] ▶
especially if, you know, nuclear detonation is taking out all the surrounding electronics
[1:12:53 - 1:12:57] ▶
within, you know, an EMP, you know, the optical footage is going to be really significant,
[1:12:58 - 1:13:04] ▶
especially for spotting anomalous things like UFOs.
[1:13:04 - 1:13:07] ▶
So I often think maybe EG&G plays this really important role.
[1:13:07 - 1:13:11] ▶
Well, on Cape Canaveral, it was this big, large facility.
[1:13:12 - 1:13:17] ▶
Just to get into Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, you had to have a clearance and a need to know.
[1:13:19 - 1:13:27] ▶
So we would have people like three-star generals that are on vacation in Florida drive up and say,
[1:13:27 - 1:13:33] ▶
hey, I want to come on and take a look at this stuff.
[1:13:33 - 1:13:37] ▶
And so the enlisted guard at the gate says, I'm sorry, sir, but you do not have authorization to enter this facility.
[1:13:38 - 1:13:49] ▶
And they would sometimes argue with them.
[1:13:50 - 1:13:52] ▶
The security guard always won.
[1:13:54 - 1:13:56] ▶
Well, there were lots of other things on Cape Canaveral that weren't exactly directly related to the space program.
[1:13:56 - 1:14:06] ▶
But once you put it on Cape Canaveral, it has a very high level of secrecy.
[1:14:07 - 1:14:15] ▶
And if anybody asks, I'm not even going to use a subject as an example, but it could be for Project X.
[1:14:15 - 1:14:29] ▶
Now then, if you put Project X in New Mexico, they're going to wonder what it is.
[1:14:30 - 1:14:36] ▶
If you put Project X on Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, they can always say, oh, well, it's just related to the space program.
[1:14:36 - 1:14:43] ▶
So we had other projects that were on Cape Canaveral.
[1:14:43 - 1:14:51] ▶
But anytime someone says Cape Canaveral, they say, oh, well, it's a space program.
[1:14:51 - 1:14:56] ▶
Well, maybe, maybe not.
[1:14:57 - 1:15:00] ▶
But there were other kinds of things that we had operating that weren't exactly space program related.
[1:15:00 - 1:15:09] ▶
Some more kind of exotic science or something.
[1:15:10 - 1:15:13] ▶
Well, I can tell you, you might know a thing or two more than what you're saying.
[1:15:15 - 1:15:19] ▶
Well, I would hope that I knew a few more things than what I say.
[1:15:20 - 1:15:25] ▶
Because I shouldn't be talking about everything.
[1:15:25 - 1:15:27] ▶
So what made you want to come out?
[1:15:28 - 1:15:32] ▶
So it's been, you know, what, almost 25 years, you know, since that event.
[1:15:32 - 1:15:37] ▶
And you came out, you know, was it a couple months ago now?
[1:15:38 - 1:15:42] ▶
I retired from the Department of Defense on the 30th of April.
[1:15:44 - 1:15:49] ▶
I still haven't gotten all my pay straight.
[1:15:54 - 1:15:56] ▶
So if anyone in the pay department is listening, make sure I get my retirement pay straightened out.
[1:15:57 - 1:16:05] ▶
He won't do any more interviews if you just pay him now.
[1:16:06 - 1:16:10] ▶
Yeah, I don't want to link those two things at all.
[1:16:12 - 1:16:15] ▶
You don't want to extort the gun.
[1:16:16 - 1:16:17] ▶
On the 4th of May, Josh Boswell came out with an interview from the UK Daily Mail.
[1:16:17 - 1:16:28] ▶
And then Ty Roberts came out with one for both the International UFO Bureau and also for Total Disclosure.
[1:16:28 - 1:16:41] ▶
He's part of both of those.
[1:16:42 - 1:16:44] ▶
You know, I need to say that I am on the board for the International UFO Bureau.
[1:16:44 - 1:16:52] ▶
I'm from Oklahoma, so guess what?
[1:16:52 - 1:16:54] ▶
It's headquartered in Oklahoma City.
[1:16:55 - 1:16:57] ▶
So that comes out very handy.
[1:16:58 - 1:17:00] ▶
Were you into UFOs before the sighting at all or before this, you know, security camera sighting?
[1:17:00 - 1:17:07] ▶
You have to go back to 1969, I believe it was.
[1:17:09 - 1:17:12] ▶
And when I read Chariots of the Gods by Eric Von Doniken, I was hooked.
[1:17:12 - 1:17:19] ▶
I was hooked for life.
[1:17:20 - 1:17:21] ▶
And my wife was even more hooked than I was.
[1:17:22 - 1:17:25] ▶
So she has always been fascinated with all of this stuff.
[1:17:26 - 1:17:30] ▶
Would you talk about it on the base with people?
[1:17:30 - 1:17:33] ▶
Would you, you know, express interest in UFOs?
[1:17:33 - 1:17:35] ▶
We would sometimes talk about things of that sort, even though, even if someone walked into
[1:17:35 - 1:17:45] ▶
the room and said, what were you just talking about?
[1:17:45 - 1:17:47] ▶
We would have said, baseball.
[1:17:48 - 1:17:49] ▶
And you don't think you were kind of psychologically profiled and tracked and you were like, they
[1:17:51 - 1:17:57] ▶
were like, you know what, Doc Rogers, he loves the UFO thing.
[1:17:57 - 1:18:00] ▶
And then, you know, they try to show you a thing to corroborate your belief or something.
[1:18:00 - 1:18:04] ▶
I had no idea I was going to that building that day.
[1:18:06 - 1:18:09] ▶
My EG&G escort knew I was going to that building that day.
[1:18:11 - 1:18:17] ▶
So could it have been this EG&G coordinated?
[1:18:20 - 1:18:22] ▶
Psy op or something.
[1:18:23 - 1:18:24] ▶
But he would have had to have done something more to make sure that he did not walk out
[1:18:24 - 1:18:32] ▶
at the same time I did in order for that major to speak with me.
[1:18:32 - 1:18:36] ▶
Because that major knew me as a flight surgeon, but he would not have known the escort as an
[1:18:37 - 1:18:44] ▶
And if we had walked out at the same time, I don't think he would have brought anything
[1:18:45 - 1:18:51] ▶
And also, it is a good question.
[1:18:54 - 1:18:56] ▶
Like, what do they want from that?
[1:18:58 - 1:19:00] ▶
You know, the average person, they look up in the sky, they think they see a UFO, they
[1:19:02 - 1:19:08] ▶
Their family comes home.
[1:19:12 - 1:19:13] ▶
What are they going to do with their family?
[1:19:13 - 1:19:15] ▶
They're going to show it to everybody they know.
[1:19:15 - 1:19:18] ▶
That's what we as humans tend to do.
[1:19:19 - 1:19:22] ▶
And so, wanting to show something unusual to other people is pretty common.
[1:19:22 - 1:19:30] ▶
Often, Occam's razor on a lot of these things is just the human aspects of it.
[1:19:33 - 1:19:39] ▶
And, like, people talk more than they should.
[1:19:39 - 1:19:42] ▶
They want to impress other people more than they should.
[1:19:42 - 1:19:44] ▶
And, you know, it's the human fallibility explains way more than, you know, people want some
[1:19:44 - 1:19:50] ▶
sort of, you know, super coordinated psyop or whatever.
[1:19:50 - 1:19:53] ▶
And that's just often not the case.
[1:19:53 - 1:19:54] ▶
So, you know, two decades plus go by.
[1:19:56 - 1:20:00] ▶
And what makes you want to come and speak out about this?
[1:20:01 - 1:20:05] ▶
Well, first of all, everything changed in 2017.
[1:20:06 - 1:20:13] ▶
When the New York Times article came out and I saw the videos, you know, having known pilots
[1:20:13 - 1:20:21] ▶
for so many years, it wasn't just what they were looking at.
[1:20:21 - 1:20:27] ▶
Even if I had not seen what they were looking at, when I heard the tone of the voices of these
[1:20:28 - 1:20:34] ▶
pilots as they're talking back and forth to each other, like, wow, did you see that?
[1:20:34 - 1:20:38] ▶
They're not watching anything ordinary.
[1:20:40 - 1:20:42] ▶
I would recognize from their voice, oh, my goodness, they are seeing something they have
[1:20:43 - 1:20:48] ▶
never seen in their life.
[1:20:48 - 1:20:49] ▶
Because you've probably heard audio, tons of audio from pilots.
[1:20:49 - 1:20:52] ▶
Well, I've flown with pilots.
[1:20:53 - 1:20:54] ▶
So, you know, if we're in a formation and all of a sudden, you know, some strange things happen,
[1:20:55 - 1:21:02] ▶
you know, we talk about it one time.
[1:21:03 - 1:21:06] ▶
Have you ever seen a UFO in the air with any pilots?
[1:21:07 - 1:21:10] ▶
But as an example of something that happens, I was in a Blackhawk flying in Germany.
[1:21:12 - 1:21:21] ▶
And we were flying low level, which meant that as we came over the hill, we were supposed
[1:21:22 - 1:21:28] ▶
to be within 25 feet above ground level, AGL.
[1:21:28 - 1:21:31] ▶
And so we had come over this hill and was going down into the valley.
[1:21:32 - 1:21:38] ▶
And then there was a hill on the other side.
[1:21:38 - 1:21:40] ▶
And this was the last hill before you get to the Rhine River Valley.
[1:21:40 - 1:21:46] ▶
And just on the other side, there was an air defense artillery battery.
[1:21:47 - 1:21:52] ▶
Well, this F-4 Phantom that was using anti-radar missiles, harm missiles, and was performing this
[1:21:52 - 1:22:05] ▶
kind of stuff was not supposed to be in this airspace.
[1:22:05 - 1:22:09] ▶
But he came screaming down this valley at probably 400 knots.
[1:22:09 - 1:22:15] ▶
Well, we're just coming down, and he flies between us and the ground.
[1:22:15 - 1:22:21] ▶
And then books it up into there because he knew, man, he just nearly died.
[1:22:21 - 1:22:30] ▶
Well, the problem is we just nearly died, too.
[1:22:31 - 1:22:33] ▶
His jet wash hit us and blew us up and rotated us.
[1:22:33 - 1:22:38] ▶
And so now we're across the valley, and we are still getting a downward movement because
[1:22:39 - 1:22:46] ▶
of the pressure that his aircraft made.
[1:22:46 - 1:22:49] ▶
Well, on this side, the hill is coming up.
[1:22:49 - 1:22:53] ▶
So we deviate to try to gain as much air as possible.
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So we can't go straight.
[1:23:00 - 1:23:01] ▶
We go right into the mountain.
[1:23:01 - 1:23:03] ▶
So we bank as hard as we can.
[1:23:03 - 1:23:07] ▶
And when we get up to right here, there was a road.
[1:23:07 - 1:23:10] ▶
And so they have 100-foot-high trees there.
[1:23:10 - 1:23:14] ▶
But where the road was, it was clear.
[1:23:15 - 1:23:17] ▶
And so we passed that road at probably about 5-foot AGL.
[1:23:18 - 1:23:24] ▶
If there was a car, we would have hit it.
[1:23:25 - 1:23:28] ▶
But the trees are coming up on both sides.
[1:23:28 - 1:23:31] ▶
And so we went between the trees climbing up.
[1:23:31 - 1:23:35] ▶
We nearly died because of what that F-4 pilot had done.
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And now then, as soon as we get up, I'll include this because it's funny from my standpoint.
[1:23:39 - 1:23:46] ▶
As soon as we climbed, we were not staying low level anymore.
[1:23:47 - 1:23:51] ▶
We were putting some air under us.
[1:23:52 - 1:23:54] ▶
And I made the comment, gentlemen, I want you to know my flight suit is dry.
[1:23:54 - 1:23:59] ▶
And the crew chief said, well, Doc, I sure wish I could say it.
[1:24:00 - 1:24:03] ▶
He had voided his bladder.
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But the thing is, as soon as we got back to the base, we're telling everybody this story.
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Well, it didn't involve anybody else.
[1:24:16 - 1:24:19] ▶
There was really nothing to do.
[1:24:19 - 1:24:20] ▶
But it was an interesting story.
[1:24:21 - 1:24:23] ▶
So we were telling it.
[1:24:23 - 1:24:24] ▶
So, yeah, that sounds like a close call.
[1:24:25 - 1:24:27] ▶
There's been several times that God was looking out for me or we wouldn't have made it.
[1:24:28 - 1:24:33] ▶
So 25 years later, you see this article come out in the New York Times.
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You see three Pentagon videos getting, you know, kind of released that are unidentified by definition.
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And that sort of emboldens you to start to think about maybe.
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At that time, I spoke to a gentleman that I respect very greatly.
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I don't want to mention his name.
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But if I mentioned his name, boy, would you know who he was.
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Why do you want to mention him?
[1:25:08 - 1:25:09] ▶
I had, you know, I'm getting dinged from people all over the place since I came out.
[1:25:09 - 1:25:19] ▶
I'm not going to dump on somebody else.
[1:25:19 - 1:25:21] ▶
You know, anyway, I talked to him for quite a while.
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And then the real impetus was when David Grush testified.
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And he gave all of this expert testimony and then said, I know that we have reverse engineered craft.
[1:25:33 - 1:25:43] ▶
I just don't have anyone who will come out and say it.
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Well, as I watched the video multiple times, I thought, you know, I've got his six o'clock covered.
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You know, he said no one's come out and told their story.
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Well, if I come out, you know, David is exposed because no one will say that they saw a reverse engineered craft.
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So you wanted to back him up.
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So, you know, I can't confirm all of the other stuff he did.
[1:26:28 - 1:26:33] ▶
But when and then some of the government officials said, we have never had a craft like that in our inventory.
[1:26:33 - 1:26:43] ▶
And I was sitting there saying, what are you talking about?
[1:26:43 - 1:26:46] ▶
So I decided, you know, when I retire, I'm going to tell my story whether they like it or not.
[1:26:47 - 1:26:54] ▶
And next time David Grush speaks, he can say, look, not only do I know that there are reverse engineered spacecraft, Dr. Greg Rogers testified to it.
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Well, he's definitely the tip of the spear, I think, in a lot of people's opinion.
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You know, he's provided, you know, hundreds of pages to the, you know, Inspector General of the Intelligence Community, Thomas Monheim, to the effect that there are covert reverse engineering programs.
[1:27:18 - 1:27:29] ▶
He's, you know, on C-SPAN talking to, you know, AOC, who's saying, do you have the locations of, you know, where these crafts are being reverse engineered?
[1:27:30 - 1:27:40] ▶
And he says, yes, I have the addresses and I will give them to you if you just get me into a skiff.
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So I think that's kind of a bold, you know, flag to plant, right?
[1:27:44 - 1:27:51] ▶
If, you know, if you weren't being honest.
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I think, you know, all of his colleagues say that, you know, he's beyond reproach and, you know, all have good things to say about him.
[1:27:56 - 1:28:04] ▶
He was National Geospatial Agency, National Reconnaissance Office, Air Force, Space Force.
[1:28:04 - 1:28:10] ▶
I think maybe just Air Force.
[1:28:10 - 1:28:11] ▶
I don't know about Space Force, actually.
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But, you know, and I've gotten to know him pretty well.
[1:28:12 - 1:28:15] ▶
And, you know, he's just autistic attention to detail, literally, because he's level one autism.
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Well, that would be me as well.
[1:28:21 - 1:28:26] ▶
You have level one autism, too?
[1:28:26 - 1:28:28] ▶
Yeah, along with PTSD.
[1:28:28 - 1:28:29] ▶
In the – I've written a book since I went out to Contact in the Desert because so many people were saying, you've got to tell these stories.
[1:28:30 - 1:28:44] ▶
So I've written a book.
[1:28:44 - 1:28:48] ▶
To be really ingenious, I decided to call it We Got It From Them.
[1:28:49 - 1:28:56] ▶
And is it about UFOs?
[1:28:58 - 1:29:00] ▶
Yeah, it's about UFOs.
[1:29:00 - 1:29:01] ▶
But it also contains additional stories from my background because I want non-military people to sort of feel like what a military career is composed of.
[1:29:01 - 1:29:16] ▶
And between each section, I tell a different one of my stories.
[1:29:17 - 1:29:22] ▶
And right before the final chapter, I just came right out and said, I have PTSD.
[1:29:23 - 1:29:31] ▶
Lots and lots of soldier, sailors, Air Force, Marines have this.
[1:29:31 - 1:29:41] ▶
And too many people see it as something that you've got to hide, that you can't admit what's going on.
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And so I wanted to spend one whole section trying to convince people, look, if you have PTSD, get help.
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Here are things that can help you.
[1:30:03 - 1:30:07] ▶
But, you know, with the way people treat whistleblowers, if I have PTSD, someone's going to bring it out in a negative way.
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So I might as well beat them to the punch and just say, look.
[1:30:23 - 1:30:26] ▶
Well, that happened to David Grush.
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But they basically leaked his medical records from, I guess, the police department locally in Virginia leaked this, you know, call that he had because, you know, one of his friends was mortared right next to him.
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Another friend committed suicide due to his own PTSD.
[1:30:48 - 1:30:51] ▶
He was an Afghanistan combat veteran, and he had suffered from it.
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And he talks about it in this interview I do with him where he talks about doing, you know, heart rate variability, breath work, and other things to really, you know, reintegrate.
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So I admire your courage for talking about this.
[1:31:05 - 1:31:09] ▶
And I think you're right to say it prophylactically because I can't tell you how many other whistleblowers I've broken who, in my opinion, are sort of war heroes, things they tell me off air, really impressive things they've gone through.
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And then people just go after their core credentials.
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They don't even go after the experience.
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They go after their, you know, they act like they weren't, like this one guy, like, wasn't a Green Beret or something.
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It's, like, you know, I know he was.
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Well, you can have PTSD by survivor's remorse.
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There was one guy when I was a very young doctor who was in Vietnam, and they were in a firefight.
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And so they were trying to keep suppressive cover down.
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And he had emptied his M-16, and so he put the next magazine in, and he was just hesitating because, man, they're taking fire from everywhere.
[1:31:52 - 1:32:04] ▶
Well, his sort of battle buddy guy was still firing next to him, and he paused instead of immediately returning fire.
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And while he paused, his best friend got hit and killed.
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And so for the rest of his life, he felt like if I had given suppression fire, my buddy wouldn't have died.
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And so I talked to him a number of times, but his family would say, you're a hero.
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And people would say all this kind of stuff, and yet in his mind, he wasn't a hero.
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His buddy died because he hesitated.
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He was the least thing of a hero in his own mind that it could be because his buddy had died because he paused before returning fire.
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And that was something that that guy was going to live with the rest of his life.
[1:33:01 - 1:33:05] ▶
Yeah, I could see that eating away at you more than something having happened to you directly.
[1:33:05 - 1:33:10] ▶
So broadly, is the source of your PTSD just seeing all these people in the medical context?
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Well, it's all kinds of things.
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Sort of the one thing that sort of stands out as a story was that we had an aircraft mishap where one of our pilots died.
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And so I had to go and collect urine samples from him, blood samples from him.
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And I had to gather up the rest of his body and try to get as much of his body together as we could before we shipped it off for an autopsy.
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And so this was out in a filled environment.
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And so I got back to my tent because a bunch of people saw what happened.
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So I had to counsel all of these other people.
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So I spent the whole afternoon counseling these people and doing my job as a flight surgeon to prepare for the aircraft mishap investigation that was going to come out of this.
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Because every time an aircraft crashes, we try to find the details so that we can prevent the next one.
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So I finally got back to my GP medium, which is a general purpose tent.
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And as I sat down on my cot, one of my medics says, Captain Rogers, how bad was it?
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And I said, as bad as you can imagine.
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I mean, I picked up parts of his body 130 yards away.
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And so I was giving her just a few details.
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And all of a sudden, she looked and she said, Captain Rogers, I don't know how to tell you this, but it looks like part of his brain is on your boot.
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So I looked down and I said, oh, yeah, it is.
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So I picked up part of his brain and we had a potbelly stove to keep us warm.
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And I just tossed it into that potbelly stove.
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For me, the very next moment, there was a hand on my shoulder.
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And it was my staff sergeant, who is my NCOIC.
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And he said, come on, doc, we've got to get some breakfast, head over to third attack.
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And I said, what are you talking about?
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It's the middle of the night.
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He said, no, it's 0553.
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We need to get moving.
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And so he didn't realize what had happened to me.
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I didn't realize what had happened.
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But I got up and went and got some breakfast, went over to the third attack battalion aid station and did all of the stuff I was supposed to do because the man who died was from third attack.
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And so late that day, I finally saw my medic and I said, hey, do you remember talking to me early this morning?
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And I said, do you remember telling me that part of his brain was on my boot?
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And she said, yes, sir.
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I said, and I took it and I put it in the potbelly stove.
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And she said, yes, sir.
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And I said, what did I do then?
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And she said, well, you just sat there.
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I tried to talk to you, but you weren't responding.
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So I just got back in my sleeping bag and went to sleep.
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I had lost more than four hours that I can't account for.
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You went into some sort of catatonic state or something.
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And needless to say, there have been times that I have relived these issues in my dreams.
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And I've got lots of other stories.
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But they're not all good stories.
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And you can't undo a story like that.
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You know, this was one of my friends.
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I had done this flight physical two weeks before we went out there.
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And now I'm taking part of his brain and throwing it in a potbelly stove.
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So tell me how that's going to get fixed.
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So I've got other stories like that that I don't want to go into.
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Well, we're all here for you.
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I really appreciate you having the courage to come out.
[1:38:10 - 1:38:14] ▶
And like you said, you have David Grush's six o'clock position.
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I think it's very cool that you're doing this and that you're being so open and sharing about your PTSD,
[1:38:18 - 1:38:27] ▶
which is in no way related to your testimony, which people should realize.
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If you were to blanket discount people with PTSD, you'd be like discounting half the military.
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Well, you know, a lot of people don't realize it.
[1:38:43 - 1:38:45] ▶
But we have archaeological evidence that goes all the way back to the Spartans.
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And there was a doctor that had written a treatise back then.
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And that treatise fit every category of PTSD now.
[1:38:55 - 1:39:04] ▶
And so even the ancient Spartans who we think of, they were the greatest fighters.
[1:39:04 - 1:39:08] ▶
No, they were humans and they still had PTSD back then.
[1:39:09 - 1:39:13] ▶
I mean, you can't, I think you can't be human.
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And you see these things, of course, you're going to dissociate somewhat and you're going to, you know, repress these like extreme feelings.
[1:39:18 - 1:39:26] ▶
And if you don't have those extreme feelings, there's something else kind of off with you around, you know, maybe sociopathy or something.
[1:39:26 - 1:39:32] ▶
If you're very close with a person and you see something that bad happen to them, you know, especially if you're sensitive, you know, like I think Grush is another good example where he's a, you could tell he's a sensitive guy.
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You're going to store a lot.
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You're going to pick up a lot.
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And you have to, you know, like the electrostatic discharge on the craft, you need to discharge that somehow or it's going to kind of eat at you.
[1:39:49 - 1:39:57] ▶
So I admire you being open about all of this.
[1:39:57 - 1:40:01] ▶
I think it's, I think it's awesome.
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And nothing at all to be ashamed about.
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If anything, you know, we should be honoring you for having served our country for so long.
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Well, I look back at the friends of mine who died and I think, no, those are the real heroes.
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You know, sometimes it's very hard for people with survival guilt to accept somebody saying something good to them because, you know, in one circumstance, I was working on a good friend of mine and I could not save his life and he died.
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And I did not feel like a hero after that.
[1:40:46 - 1:40:53] ▶
Yeah, but that's par for the course with your job.
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You're not going to have 100% success rate and you're going to have cases where no human could ever save them.
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So I think you, you can't be too hard on yourself.
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And I think just the fact that you were fulfilling that role, which is one that I think most people would be too, too afraid to even, you know, do, I think is a really amazing, you know, testament.
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And we don't know what happens when you die.
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So, you know, I always think that sometimes it's like it's such a tragedy when people pass on to the other side, but they could be watching over you right now and so proud of what you're doing and really happy.
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You know, we don't know.
[1:41:36 - 1:41:37] ▶
As a doctor, I can assure you there are worse things than dying.
[1:41:38 - 1:41:41] ▶
I do not want to have 99% of my body burned and me survive.
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I do not want my brain to survive my body.
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I don't want my body to survive my brain.
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I've seen both and they're not pretty.
[1:42:00 - 1:42:03] ▶
Yeah, no, that sounds like purgatory, like you're walking around and, you know, I mean, that's probably the worst.
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Well, I do want you to know, I think you're, yeah, you did the Lord's work and you have nothing, nothing to be, you know, regretful about.
[1:42:11 - 1:42:22] ▶
Well, God drives everything in the universe.
[1:42:22 - 1:42:26] ▶
You know, science cannot disprove God because God made science.
[1:42:27 - 1:42:32] ▶
You know, one of the things that used to bug me when I was a kid and I was reading Genesis, it said that evening and the morning were the first day.
[1:42:32 - 1:42:46] ▶
And during the first day, God said, let there be light.
[1:42:46 - 1:42:50] ▶
So there's the light.
[1:42:51 - 1:42:53] ▶
Then it said the evening and the morning were the second day.
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Well, hold a second.
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There was light in the first day.
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Where did the light go that it got dark again?
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The sun wasn't formed.
[1:43:11 - 1:43:12] ▶
The earth just turned the opposite direction.
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Well, the thing is, I never had an explanation for that until I learned about the cosmic microwave background.
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And then when you understand the cosmic microwave background, you understand this is exactly what happened.
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At the time of the Big Bang, the temperatures in the early universe were so hot that all you had was plasma.
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It was so hot that no proton could hook onto an electron because it would break apart because there was so much energy.
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So for 380,000 years, there was an orange light that filled the universe and it was this plasma.
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But at 380,000 years after the Big Bang, it finally cooled enough that for the first time, the proton could grab an electron and boom, you've got a hydrogen atom.
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But once one proton could grab an electron, so could the other proton and the other proton.
[1:44:24 - 1:44:33] ▶
And so within a very short time, we went from this plasma-filled universe to the first atoms that were made.
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And the universe was completely clear.
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But there was no light.
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Because until enough of these protons with the hydrogen atom got together and they started accumulating using electrostatic forces and gravity,
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they finally made such a big mass of all of these atoms.
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That gravitational force compressed them and boom, you have the first generation star.
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And so light returned to the universe.
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And that's the light of the second day.
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So you have the light of the Big Bang and then you have no light until you get this hydrogen formation up until a star and then you get light back.
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And so it matches with the Bible.
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I would say, you know, I believe in God.
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But I would say that our cosmological models of the universe are just super limited.
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And so I don't even know if the Big Bang is a thing.
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And the reason I say that is the James Webb telescope is now picking up all these early galaxies that were far earlier than we ever thought galaxies formed.
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And basically, if they exist in proportion to what was found in this little section of the universe, then they might better explain the cosmic microwave background than the actual Big Bang itself.
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And so my larger kind of point is like we just we just need a lot of epistemic humility around cosmological models.
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Like I think physics has a scaling problem.
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So if you have anomalies at low scale, we were talking about, you know, alternative propulsion, like the Casimir effect or Byfield Brown, like these things that like we don't we can't explain, you know, simply through general relativity or quantum mechanics.
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If you have any sort of anomalies at low scale, which of course we do, because at any given time in history, you have anomalies in your physical models of reality.
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And that's then they get updated.
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Then it's like your rocket is one degree off course.
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And so when you try to scale it to a cosmological model, you have this sort of error propagation and you're like way off.
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And then you have to come up with placeholders like dark matter, which is this glue which explains gravity, gravity's weakness or cosmic inflation, which is sort of the expansion of the universe.
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Where if you were to ask a physicist what what fundamental force is represented in cosmic inflation, they wouldn't have an answer for you.
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They'd say some sort of repulsive form of gravity.
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They'd say anti-gravity.
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And so you end up, I think, in like, you know, this crazy kind of hyperspace, like just trying to make the math work to comport with our human very limited epistemology.
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There are all these issues with the cosmological constant.
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I mean, we could go on for for for a long time as far as issues with cosmology.
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So I think none of that you can't use science to discount God because, I mean, the the the universe is just so miraculous and the earth is somewhere.
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You have the Planck's constant.
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You know, if it were slightly different, you know, we wouldn't have an atmosphere.
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And there's so many examples like that.
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Well, the the single biggest problem is that if you don't have God, everything has to happen randomly.
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But the universe isn't random.
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How much do you know about chirality?
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I know a little bit about it.
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Well, chirality means that there is something that is going to occur in which you you can have one version and you can have the opposite version.
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If you take the carbon of the methane molecule and you have four hydrogen molecules and let's just say 12, three, six and nine.
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If you decide to make a methyl chloride and you take a chlorine atom and put it at the three o'clock position, the composition is C H three C L.
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But now then, if you take this, the chlorine and you put it at this at the nine o'clock model instead of the three o'clock model, the chemical formula is exactly the same.
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But if you shine, if you if you shine polarized light through that, if it's at the nine o'clock position, it's going to turn the polarized light to the right.
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If it's at the if the chlorine is at the three o'clock position, it's going to turn it to the left.
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So you have a left handed methyl chloride and a right handed methyl chloride.
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Now, it seems like there shouldn't be a difference.
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The biologic systems will only function with one of those options.
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There's a there's a left handed glucose and a right handed glucose.
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But the right handed glucose is the only glucose that any plant will make, that any animal will consume, that any protoplasm will be able to manufacture energy from.
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What what is happening is that I put this in a book years ago, the case for God.
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If you take a nickel and you flip it 50 50 chances coming up heads.
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So it comes up heads.
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So you flip it again, comes up heads again.
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So you say, hey, I'm going to Vegas.
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Uh, I'm going to find, um, a casino where I can flip a nickel and, uh, bet on it.
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So you, you put $5 down, you flip it comes up heads.
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By the time you flip this thing 20 times and it came up heads every time, the casino is visiting you because you have a nickel that has been fixed.
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It has been altered.
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And so it is not a 50 50 chance.
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And when you look at the chirality throughout the universe, there are all of these multiple, multiple, multiple times when there should be a 50 50 reaction and it's 100% and 0%.
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And, and so if you are trying to explain this randomly, you don't have a real good case.
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If you say there is a God who knows how to fix a nickel so that it comes up heads every time.
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Very simple explanation.
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And there, there are rational explanations basically for God.
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And then there are rational explanations for pure randomness.
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And I think the very fact that our world is so kind of, you know, this anthropic principle, another good example would be water and ice.
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Where normally the, the, you know, solid version of a molecular structure is heavier and, and, and more dense than the liquid version of that structure.
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And in the case of H2O, because hydrogen and oxygen have to happen to, when they bond and freeze, they form these perfect crystal lattice structures.
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They're actually less dense than water.
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And so you end up basically where, with this thing where like ice can float on water.
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And if that weren't the case, the earth would flood a million times over.
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So you have this kind of anthropic principle around that.
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The weak electro kind of, you know, you know, that's, that's anthropic.
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All of these things, if they're, you know, the gravitational constant, if it is actually constant.
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If any of these things were slightly off, you know, the earth would not be habitable as, as we kind of know it.
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And then you get into physics principles like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, where if you, you're only measuring, you know, a position and momentum, one gets fuzzier as the other gets more accurate.
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And that sounds, that looks a lot like kind of a computational caching function.
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And so you end up with this model where there's, there are really rational ways to actually explain God.
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You have even like in vogue today is Nick Bostrom and like, you know, Elon Musk saying we live in a simulation.
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Well, it's like, who simulated us?
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Like, you know, God, you know, you know, God is a sort of a, you know, a placeholder that, you know, it's, it's very hard to know exactly what that is.
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But, you know, for a lot of people who don't have sort of a Gnostic, you know, felt sense of God.
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But on the other side, I don't, I don't, I don't know if the other side is more rational is all I'm saying.
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I think there's like a lot of really interesting data points that point you towards, you know, we live in a, you know, creative and intelligent universe.
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You know, when Albert Einstein created the special theory of relativity, people argued with him.
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And, you know, they argued with him so much between that and general relativity that even though Einstein won a Nobel Prize, it wasn't for relativity because too many people still argued about that.
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He won it for the photoelectric effect.
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Special relativity, yeah.
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They were not going to give Einstein the credit he needed for relativity.
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General relativity was known as a novel curiosity until 1957.
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And that's when, you know, guys like now, like Kip Thorne, they call it the golden age of general relativity.
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Basically post Einstein, where he gets resuscitated and, you know, turned into this, you know, modern genius who explains everything kind of cosmologically.
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But before that, it was this kind of novel curiosity that was not at all established physics.
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It wasn't established physics, but it was in the Bible.
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So you've got this whole...
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Jesus said that with God, a thousand years is a day and a day is a thousand years.
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No, I think it's Peter, sorry.
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But at the time, that was an element of belief.
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They had no reason to believe it, but they were going to believe it.
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Now then, when you take scientists today, I'm not one of them, but there are scientists who can calculate for 24 hours to pass on Earth, an astronaut would have to be traveling at this speed close to the speed of light in order for them to see a thousand years and this guy to see 24 hours.
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It's not a belief anymore.
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Well, another good example of that is one of my favorite lines is in the book of Mark.
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And I'm going to paraphrase here, but it's something like, careful what you measure because what you measure you'll get more of.
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And it's this, you know, seeking you shall find sort of, you know, comment.
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And I am really interested in this field of parapsychology, this idea, you know, of like where your attentional sensor is pointed, you will receive more of that thing.
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And everybody, if you were to pull them and they're open to this somewhat, a lot of people, high percentage of people will say that empirically that happens in their life.
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That like, you know, they think about a thing and then it just pops and they think about a friend and the friend calls them, you know, that sort of thing.
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And so I think there's a lot of deep truth to the Bible that, again, people discount.
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They say it was, you know, a bunch of bullshit, you know, paranormal magic tricks or something.
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And I don't think that's right.
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I think there are some real, there's some deep ontological truth that it's pointing at.
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Well, there's truth all over the world as well.
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You know, when you look at the Vedic texts, they're talking about the manas.
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Now, then at the time, those were the strangest things ever.
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But they described like an arrow that when it was shot, it would guide itself through the air until it hit its target.
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If you were watching an F-22 fighting a MiG-29 and they fire a heat-seeking air-to-air missile, that missile is going to guide itself until it hits its target.
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So this was a description in the Vedic texts thousands of years ago.
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Or what about the Vimanas, which describe literally UFOs with spinning mercury inside?
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Which then get later, I mean, you have a famous UFO whistleblower named Edgar Fouché, claimed to be at Area 51.
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And he was working on the, you know, or I think he was aware of the TR3A and B series from Northrop Grumman.
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And it involves spinning mercury.
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But I've had in your chair a Senate staffer for the intelligence community, Kirk McConnell, bring this up to me.
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So, you know, you don't have to trust me, a crazy podcaster or whatever.
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Like he brought this up both in the context of Die Glocke, this German bell, which is, I think, no longer fictional.
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We know there was something there.
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There's literally like a rig, a picture of a rig there.
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And Nick Cook has done all this interesting investigation into anti-gravity research mid-century has gone in there.
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And so, you know, Die Glocke probably existed and there's supposed to be spinning mercury there.
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And then you have Edgar Fouché saying later in the TR3A and B series, you had spinning mercury.
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So, and then the Vimanas spinning mercury.
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You know, you can take some of the models of so-called birds from South America.
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And if you show them to American grade school kids, they're going to look at them and say, those are airplanes.
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Because they look like airplanes.
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Now, then these things are thousands of years old.
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Why do they look like airplanes?
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Could it be because they were airplanes?
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You know, we're not nearly as smart as we think we are.
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Also, if a cataclysm were to occur, you'd have no idea.
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It would be so buried.
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You know, talking about like something happened.
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I mean, we have very, very little record of the dinosaurs and they were wiped out, you know, 66 million years ago.
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So if you could have a civilization, you know, you could have this sort of S-curve thing with civilizational cycles and cataclysms.
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And it'd be hard to know until you first discover the thing.
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You know, right now, civilization is getting older progressively.
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Every, call it 30 or 40 years, we find, oh, now we have Gobekli Tepe.
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Oh, actually, Gobekli Tepe isn't the earliest, you know, megalithic site.
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So I just think our understanding of the past, as you're implying, is extremely limited.
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And there's actually, you know, all sorts of forbidden archaeology where you have like the antique theorem mechanism, which is a little computer with astronomical alignments found, you know, in the, I think, the Aegean or the, you know.
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Yeah, and it's undeniable.
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Yeah, it's undeniable.
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So you get an accumulation of these things and it's like, well, maybe our understanding of our past is just way off.
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So one thing I want to, you know, getting back to your, the core case is it is interesting with a lot of these testimonies where you flip one switch and you could explain what you saw, not by them, because maybe that was just told to the major and maybe the major related to you.
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But it could be explained by just a terrestrial, all equally exciting, but anti-gravity line of aerospace.
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And we were talking off air before the show about the Byfield Brown effect and like, you know, exotic propulsion.
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Do you think that it's possible that what you saw was actually maybe just some extremely exciting human propulsion breakthrough?
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I think that what I saw was human built.
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Why we would design it that way, I could not prove one way or the other.
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But knowing aerospace as I do, because I dealt with rockets.
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I dealt with the space shuttle.
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I dealt with H-1 attack helicopters.
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There is nothing that would be advantageous aerodynamically for us to build that.
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And for somebody to go off on a crazy tangent and say, I'm going to build this even though it's not aerodynamic and it doesn't show any basic advantage over any of our current aircraft.
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I think it's a little nuts too.
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And for context for the audience, the 80s was really the stealth revolution.
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So you have the F-117 coming out in the early 80s and then you have the B2 coming out in the late 80s.
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And obviously the B2 had probably been around for a little bit longer.
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But like billions of dollars were being spent on these programs.
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And that was really kind of the state of the art.
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And it is hard to believe.
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You know, America did have a flying saucer program proven.
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Nobody would argue with the Avro car.
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So the Avro car was in the 50s and 60s and it was at Wright Airfield.
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But that was a joke.
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But the point is, is that you had a radial gas flowing turbine engine, but you had all these issues aerodynamically.
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It couldn't get out of ground effect.
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That's the same thing that happened with Vanguard.
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It couldn't get out of ground effect.
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It had this sort of Kawanda effect wobbly thing going on.
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Well, with helicopters, when we fly helicopters, when we are moving forward, if you go fast enough, you will finally ground effect and you'll go into translational lift.
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And then you will ascend.
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But if you're having trouble with your engine, you want to stay close to the ground because the force of the rotor wash hitting the ground gives you the equivalent of additional lift until you lose it and you lose ground effect.
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I do find it interesting that right when Wright Airfield is working on the Avro car, they're also sponsoring this conference with the top theoretical physics research in the country at UNC Chapel Hill, University of North Carolina.
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And the guy who's running University of North Carolina's Institute of Field Physics with this guy Bryce DeWitt, one of the top theoretical physicists in the world at the time, was a guy named Ognew Bonson.
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And he had in his diaries that were found years later, it was the Space Brothers came to me and said, get me in touch with Townsend Brown because I want to build a spaceship.
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And so I wonder, you have this Avro car project.
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It's kind of a joke.
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It's not really working.
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But you have a dedicated theoretical physics group under this guy Josh Goldberg at Wright Airfield.
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And then they're sponsoring elite theoretical work on the subject.
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And then the same guy who's basically being a benefactor, being sponsored by Wright Airfield, is also hiring Townsend Brown, who probably made all these interesting updates in the world of anti-gravity propulsion.
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Then you have to ask yourself the question, could we make that much progress in 20 years?
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And I don't know the answer to that.
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Well, with what you just said, I always think of Penn & Teller.
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I love to watch Penn & Teller.
[2:05:53 - 2:05:55] ▶
And one of the things they always talk about magic.
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When they say, the magic is over here, you know, the magic is really over here.
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This is where they're wanting you to focus so that you're not paying attention over here.
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So when these companies say, look, we made this thing.
[2:06:13 - 2:06:18] ▶
Look at how fancy it is.
[2:06:18 - 2:06:19] ▶
That's to get the people's attention so they don't look at this other thing that they're spending all the money on.
[2:06:21 - 2:06:26] ▶
Well, that's what I think now is the Avrocar was probably a cover for something deep.
[2:06:27 - 2:06:33] ▶
Because all the rumors are that the Roswell craft was taken to Wright Airfield.
[2:06:33 - 2:06:37] ▶
And so you had this, yeah, kind of, you know, distraction of like kind of this joke of a thing, the Avrocar.
[2:06:37 - 2:06:43] ▶
And then you have like more serious stuff going on.
[2:06:44 - 2:06:46] ▶
But I think they used the Avrocar as a front to get specific Nazi scientists.
[2:06:46 - 2:06:51] ▶
Like there's this guy, Richard Mita, who went and worked for the Avrocar in Canada, which, you know, before it moved to Wright-Patt.
[2:06:51 - 2:07:00] ▶
It was in Canada under a guy named John Frost.
[2:07:00 - 2:07:03] ▶
And John Frost, who ran the Avrocar project on behalf of, I think, British aircraft.
[2:07:03 - 2:07:07] ▶
It was like British aircraft and CIA were co-running this thing.
[2:07:08 - 2:07:11] ▶
He was going out to recruit all these secret Nazi scientists who had worked under Hans Kammler.
[2:07:11 - 2:07:17] ▶
People like, you know, he went to try to recruit Victor Schauberger and they end up sort of stealing his work.
[2:07:17 - 2:07:22] ▶
But, yeah, Mita, this other guy, Henry Kawanda, which the Kawanda effect is named after, is, we know, was a consultant for Project Y, which is what, you know, the Avrocar project turned into.
[2:07:22 - 2:07:34] ▶
It was Y and Silverbug.
[2:07:34 - 2:07:36] ▶
So I think they were using it as like a funnel where it's like, this is a joke.
[2:07:36 - 2:07:40] ▶
We're not making progress.
[2:07:40 - 2:07:41] ▶
Let's get all these Nazi scientists to work on these things.
[2:07:41 - 2:07:44] ▶
But I think there was something very vital underneath all of it that was actually happening.
[2:07:44 - 2:07:48] ▶
And the crazy thing about your testimony, you're talking about the craft being charged.
[2:07:49 - 2:07:54] ▶
I've heard that a couple of times.
[2:07:55 - 2:07:56] ▶
Apparently, this one firsthand witness who claimed to work on a craft at Wright Airfield that was retrieved in the Aztec recovery in 1948 in March in New Mexico.
[2:07:57 - 2:08:12] ▶
He says that the craft was like hooked up to these like extremely high powered transformers and it would go translucent when it got powered up.
[2:08:12 - 2:08:24] ▶
So that's interesting.
[2:08:25 - 2:08:26] ▶
And then there are a couple of other, you know, people who say similar things like that, like, you know, a ton of power needs to be sort of mainlined into the craft.
[2:08:27 - 2:08:35] ▶
And so it's probably limited by its power source.
[2:08:35 - 2:08:39] ▶
It's like Townsend Brown was always looking for a power source for his megavolt range electricity.
[2:08:39 - 2:08:44] ▶
So, you know, and it was always, you know, going to be this kind of nuclear power source, like possibly cold fusion, like a low energy nuclear reaction or something.
[2:08:44 - 2:08:52] ▶
But before you get that, before you get the cold fusion, you have to pump it full of megavolt range electricity.
[2:08:52 - 2:08:58] ▶
Well, I think one of the things that people don't really seem to grasp in general is that you have to take baby steps before you take big steps.
[2:08:58 - 2:09:15] ▶
And so recovering a craft in 47, well, okay, you have all the details to it, but you can't make it.
[2:09:15 - 2:09:27] ▶
An example that I like to use is the F-22.
[2:09:27 - 2:09:32] ▶
If we took an F-22 fighter in our day, which is the most advanced air-to-air platform that we have, and we take it back to 1914,
[2:09:32 - 2:09:43] ▶
and we say, okay, U.S. engineers, we want the United States to have the best aircraft that'll shoot anything out of the sky,
[2:09:43 - 2:09:54] ▶
you can win the war with it, and all of this stuff.
[2:09:54 - 2:09:57] ▶
And then they go look at it, and they say,
[2:09:57 - 2:10:00] ▶
why does the skin feel so funny?
[2:10:00 - 2:10:05] ▶
Oh, well, that's radar-absorbent material.
[2:10:06 - 2:10:08] ▶
Oh, well, it's a radio wave that you bounce off.
[2:10:11 - 2:10:15] ▶
And according to how long it takes to get back, you can find the range and distance for it.
[2:10:16 - 2:10:23] ▶
And they say, well, where's the propeller?
[2:10:23 - 2:10:25] ▶
All of our aircraft are made out of wood with a propeller.
[2:10:25 - 2:10:31] ▶
I don't see any wood, and I don't see a propeller.
[2:10:31 - 2:10:33] ▶
Are you sure this thing flies?
[2:10:34 - 2:10:36] ▶
Even though this is only 100 years of human technology,
[2:10:38 - 2:10:43] ▶
those 1914 engineers could not begin to understand the F-22, much less rebuild it.
[2:10:44 - 2:10:51] ▶
If we can do this in 100 years of human technology,
[2:10:51 - 2:10:56] ▶
what would happen in 10,000 years of non-human technology?
[2:10:57 - 2:11:03] ▶
How far behind would we be?
[2:11:04 - 2:11:07] ▶
You know, when Leonardo da Vinci was alive,
[2:11:08 - 2:11:13] ▶
there were four elements in the universe,
[2:11:13 - 2:11:16] ▶
water, fire, air, and what am I thinking?
[2:11:17 - 2:11:21] ▶
And they believed those were the four elements.
[2:11:23 - 2:11:27] ▶
If you asked any scientist at that time,
[2:11:27 - 2:11:30] ▶
that would be their answer.
[2:11:31 - 2:11:33] ▶
Now then, if you said,
[2:11:34 - 2:11:35] ▶
what do you think about quantum theory?
[2:11:35 - 2:11:39] ▶
Let's say, what are you even talking about?
[2:11:42 - 2:11:44] ▶
Well, atoms are not the smallest things.
[2:11:45 - 2:11:49] ▶
You can have quarks, and you can...
[2:11:49 - 2:11:53] ▶
You know, you have to decide whether or not they're going to be bosons or fermions.
[2:11:56 - 2:12:01] ▶
And bosons will always have a whole number factor of the Planck constant.
[2:12:01 - 2:12:09] ▶
And they're going to say,
[2:12:10 - 2:12:10] ▶
what are you talking about?
[2:12:11 - 2:12:13] ▶
Now then, these would be the smartest, most brilliant people.
[2:12:14 - 2:12:18] ▶
And they think they know what physics is all about.
[2:12:18 - 2:12:22] ▶
But they're totally and completely off base.
[2:12:23 - 2:12:26] ▶
So what do you think these beings are that have these crafts that fly that maybe gift us their craft?
[2:12:26 - 2:12:33] ▶
If our star is less than 5 billion years old,
[2:12:34 - 2:12:41] ▶
but there was another star in our same galaxy that is 6 billion years old,
[2:12:41 - 2:12:49] ▶
and the life formation followed a similar pathway to us,
[2:12:49 - 2:12:56] ▶
their physics is 1 million years ahead of us.
[2:12:57 - 2:13:00] ▶
And they're going to look at our physics and say,
[2:13:01 - 2:13:04] ▶
look, they're still fighting with string theory.
[2:13:04 - 2:13:07] ▶
What's wrong with these idiots?
[2:13:09 - 2:13:11] ▶
They think to go into space, you have to have a chemical rocket to go in space.
[2:13:11 - 2:13:17] ▶
No wonder they can't go anywhere.
[2:13:17 - 2:13:19] ▶
What appears to be magic can be nothing more than advanced technology.
[2:13:22 - 2:13:32] ▶
And we are so proud of everything we've learned.
[2:13:32 - 2:13:37] ▶
But we were so proud of what we learned in 1850.
[2:13:37 - 2:13:41] ▶
And we thought we knew a lot in 1850.
[2:13:41 - 2:13:43] ▶
Maxwell hadn't even come out with his laws yet.
[2:13:44 - 2:13:48] ▶
If you go to 1600, you know.
[2:13:49 - 2:13:52] ▶
Well, that's what they're saying with electromagnetism is,
[2:13:53 - 2:13:56] ▶
we know all the known laws in the universe.
[2:13:56 - 2:13:58] ▶
The electromagnetism explains it all.
[2:13:58 - 2:14:00] ▶
We're at the end of history, and this was immediately pre-Max Planck and,
[2:14:00 - 2:14:04] ▶
you know, Quanta and the whole quantum revolution.
[2:14:04 - 2:14:06] ▶
Right up until we were proven completely wrong.
[2:14:07 - 2:14:10] ▶
You always will go do well if you bet against the current physical model of reality.
[2:14:14 - 2:14:20] ▶
If you bet against the house,
[2:14:22 - 2:14:24] ▶
if you bet against the Neil deGrasse Tysons of your time,
[2:14:24 - 2:14:27] ▶
you will always make money.
[2:14:27 - 2:14:28] ▶
Because those people are always going to be wrong.
[2:14:28 - 2:14:31] ▶
It's such hubris to say we are at the end of history and we know everything.
[2:14:31 - 2:14:34] ▶
Or even to say that we are just rounding out the final, you know, margins.
[2:14:36 - 2:14:42] ▶
Like, you know, there are little errors that, you know,
[2:14:42 - 2:14:45] ▶
we just have to correct for it, and then we're finished.
[2:14:45 - 2:14:47] ▶
That's never how it works.
[2:14:47 - 2:14:48] ▶
The next paradigm completely upends our understanding of things.
[2:14:49 - 2:14:52] ▶
If you have a really terrible shot with a pistol,
[2:14:52 - 2:14:56] ▶
if you stand 100 yards directly in front of them,
[2:14:57 - 2:15:01] ▶
the safest place to be is where they're aiming.
[2:15:01 - 2:15:04] ▶
Because they're always going to miss.
[2:15:05 - 2:15:07] ▶
So you don't know where they're going to miss.
[2:15:08 - 2:15:11] ▶
But if you're a lousy shot with a pistol at 100 yards,
[2:15:11 - 2:15:16] ▶
you're not going to hit anybody.
[2:15:17 - 2:15:18] ▶
Yeah, it's a great way to put it.
[2:15:19 - 2:15:21] ▶
So that's why I think, I don't know,
[2:15:22 - 2:15:24] ▶
I worry about institutions,
[2:15:24 - 2:15:26] ▶
which have become increasingly closed-minded.
[2:15:26 - 2:15:28] ▶
And they used to kind of foster real intellectual heterodoxy
[2:15:28 - 2:15:33] ▶
and open-mindedness.
[2:15:33 - 2:15:34] ▶
And I think they are,
[2:15:35 - 2:15:36] ▶
they've become increasingly like, you know,
[2:15:36 - 2:15:38] ▶
you have to toe the party line.
[2:15:38 - 2:15:39] ▶
And if you don't, you know, you're out.
[2:15:39 - 2:15:42] ▶
So I would go kind of long individuals
[2:15:42 - 2:15:44] ▶
and short institutions over the next, you know, 10 years.
[2:15:44 - 2:15:47] ▶
I think in many ways we might have a,
[2:15:47 - 2:15:50] ▶
we might be in a sort of melt-up in the markets,
[2:15:50 - 2:15:53] ▶
you know, just around AI and stuff.
[2:15:53 - 2:15:55] ▶
But ultimately, we're, you know,
[2:15:55 - 2:15:58] ▶
we're probably in this sort of recession already
[2:15:58 - 2:16:01] ▶
And then the only thing we have a bull market in right now is ideas.
[2:16:02 - 2:16:05] ▶
Like we're in a crazy kind of ideas bull market.
[2:16:05 - 2:16:08] ▶
And so that's kind of exciting.
[2:16:08 - 2:16:10] ▶
But there can be times when we can't tell the difference
[2:16:10 - 2:16:14] ▶
between good ideas and bad ideas.
[2:16:14 - 2:16:16] ▶
In 1972, when they were first planning the space shuttle,
[2:16:16 - 2:16:21] ▶
they said, well, what happens when it lands in California
[2:16:21 - 2:16:27] ▶
and we have to get it back to the launch site in Florida?
[2:16:27 - 2:16:31] ▶
So they thought, well, we could put it on a train
[2:16:31 - 2:16:35] ▶
and have a special route for that.
[2:16:35 - 2:16:38] ▶
Well, we could put it on a boat
[2:16:38 - 2:16:40] ▶
and bring it through the Panama Canal.
[2:16:40 - 2:16:41] ▶
Well, there was this one low-level scientist that said,
[2:16:42 - 2:16:45] ▶
what if we put it on the back of a 747?
[2:16:45 - 2:16:47] ▶
And they said, shut up.
[2:16:47 - 2:16:49] ▶
The real people are talking here.
[2:16:50 - 2:16:52] ▶
So they keep going through all this stuff.
[2:16:52 - 2:16:54] ▶
And then finally, one of the big guys says,
[2:16:54 - 2:16:57] ▶
we could put it on the back of a 747 and fly it back.
[2:16:57 - 2:17:02] ▶
And they said, what a great idea.
[2:17:02 - 2:17:04] ▶
And this guy said, I said that four weeks ago.
[2:17:05 - 2:17:09] ▶
But yeah, well, no one was listening to you.
[2:17:09 - 2:17:13] ▶
We're listening to this guy because he's big time.
[2:17:13 - 2:17:16] ▶
Well, it's so much of science is social proof and herd-like.
[2:17:17 - 2:17:22] ▶
And you expect it to be the most immune from herd-like thinking.
[2:17:22 - 2:17:25] ▶
But an example I always like is like,
[2:17:25 - 2:17:28] ▶
you know who the first person who discovered
[2:17:28 - 2:17:31] ▶
that we live in a solar system that revolves around the sun
[2:17:31 - 2:17:34] ▶
and not the earth is?
[2:17:34 - 2:17:35] ▶
I would think it was one of the Greek philosophers.
[2:17:35 - 2:17:41] ▶
So that's amazing because most people would say Copernicus,
[2:17:42 - 2:17:47] ▶
you know, 16th century, pre-Galileo, you know, actually observing it.
[2:17:47 - 2:17:51] ▶
And in fact, it was one of the Greek philosophers,
[2:17:51 - 2:17:53] ▶
this guy Aristarchus.
[2:17:53 - 2:17:54] ▶
Well, one of these guys was able to take a stick,
[2:17:55 - 2:18:00] ▶
put it in the ground and measure the distance and do the mathematics.
[2:18:00 - 2:18:08] ▶
And he estimated the entire length around the world.
[2:18:09 - 2:18:16] ▶
And he was like within 3%.
[2:18:17 - 2:18:19] ▶
I don't remember, but, you know, it's, I'm sure you could.
[2:18:21 - 2:18:26] ▶
But because he studied the shadow of a stick.
[2:18:28 - 2:18:31] ▶
You're pretty smart.
[2:18:32 - 2:18:33] ▶
I feel like you're pretty self-taught in all these sort of, you know,
[2:18:33 - 2:18:36] ▶
physics and astronomy and it's impressive.
[2:18:36 - 2:18:38] ▶
Well, think of that guy.
[2:18:39 - 2:18:41] ▶
How smart did he have to be?
[2:18:41 - 2:18:43] ▶
Well, that's the thing.
[2:18:43 - 2:18:44] ▶
It's like, I think a lot of, you know,
[2:18:44 - 2:18:47] ▶
this sort of modern version of intelligence is just,
[2:18:47 - 2:18:50] ▶
it's like you have like adornments in a, in your hat or something,
[2:18:51 - 2:18:54] ▶
you know, a little, you know, a cap in your feather or whatever.
[2:18:54 - 2:18:56] ▶
you could say a bunch of shit that makes you sound smart,
[2:18:58 - 2:19:00] ▶
but like so much of real intelligence should just be like childlike thinking
[2:19:00 - 2:19:04] ▶
like forgetting all priors and almost being not super socialized so that
[2:19:05 - 2:19:12] ▶
there's, you're not just adhering to the fashionable ideas of the time and
[2:19:12 - 2:19:16] ▶
just really thinking about things and kind of a, you know,
[2:19:16 - 2:19:20] ▶
this is an overused term, but like a first principles way,
[2:19:20 - 2:19:22] ▶
like seeing things for what they are.
[2:19:22 - 2:19:24] ▶
That's a very rare thing.
[2:19:24 - 2:19:25] ▶
There was, there was a Greek inventor that made a circle,
[2:19:25 - 2:19:34] ▶
a sphere and had one little spigot sticking out one side,
[2:19:35 - 2:19:41] ▶
one little spigot sticking out the other.
[2:19:41 - 2:19:43] ▶
If you put water in it and heat it,
[2:19:44 - 2:19:46] ▶
it becomes a spinning,
[2:19:47 - 2:19:50] ▶
a spinning wheel from the steam.
[2:19:50 - 2:19:58] ▶
It's essentially a steam engine.
[2:19:59 - 2:20:01] ▶
And everybody thought, Hey, that's a cute joke.
[2:20:02 - 2:20:04] ▶
Now then if he had just taken a chain and hook that up to a chariot,
[2:20:04 - 2:20:17] ▶
as the steam toy goes around,
[2:20:17 - 2:20:22] ▶
All of a sudden we've got the industrial revolution.
[2:20:25 - 2:20:27] ▶
you could have radical breaks and junctures in reality.
[2:20:31 - 2:20:35] ▶
It's almost like technology is like timeline hopping or something.
[2:20:35 - 2:20:38] ▶
Like if you create something, you know,
[2:20:39 - 2:20:40] ▶
I think about this with the steampunk revolution,
[2:20:40 - 2:20:43] ▶
you know, where, you know,
[2:20:43 - 2:20:44] ▶
it's like a William Gibson sci-fi novels is like this alternative,
[2:20:44 - 2:20:48] ▶
second industrial revolution where we weren't using gas engines and we were just
[2:20:49 - 2:20:53] ▶
using, you know, steam or whatever.
[2:20:53 - 2:20:55] ▶
there are different to,
[2:20:56 - 2:20:57] ▶
like the semiconductor,
[2:20:58 - 2:20:58] ▶
that's somewhat arbitrary.
[2:20:58 - 2:21:00] ▶
What if we had like some sort of biological computation or something?
[2:21:00 - 2:21:04] ▶
We're programming little like rat neurons.
[2:21:04 - 2:21:06] ▶
that's how we were that.
[2:21:07 - 2:21:08] ▶
That's a whole computational tech tree,
[2:21:08 - 2:21:10] ▶
it's so interesting how,
[2:21:13 - 2:21:15] ▶
we just get routed in these different,
[2:21:16 - 2:21:18] ▶
and sometimes it's a cul-de-sac,
[2:21:18 - 2:21:20] ▶
like string theory where it's like,
[2:21:20 - 2:21:21] ▶
I don't think that's going anywhere.
[2:21:21 - 2:21:22] ▶
we got to figure out something new.
[2:21:23 - 2:21:24] ▶
we're never as smart as we think we are.
[2:21:28 - 2:21:30] ▶
And every time we have a major breakthrough,
[2:21:30 - 2:21:33] ▶
when we look on the other side,
[2:21:33 - 2:21:35] ▶
now that we did this,
[2:21:36 - 2:21:38] ▶
we're going to need a couple more major breakthroughs up there because,
[2:21:38 - 2:21:42] ▶
when he came up with his miracle year in 1905,
[2:21:51 - 2:21:54] ▶
he was feeling really good in 1906,
[2:21:54 - 2:21:57] ▶
but he wasn't feeling so good in,
[2:21:58 - 2:22:00] ▶
1917 when he couldn't prove his general relativity theory.
[2:22:01 - 2:22:05] ▶
it would take an enemy of Germany,
[2:22:07 - 2:22:11] ▶
the work on capturing the deviation of a star around the sun during an eclipse
[2:22:16 - 2:22:23] ▶
to prove that Albert Einstein was correct.
[2:22:23 - 2:22:26] ▶
And even then it wasn't fully accepted.
[2:22:27 - 2:22:29] ▶
And he also was a foundational player in quantum mechanics.
[2:22:29 - 2:22:33] ▶
He really helped establish it.
[2:22:33 - 2:22:34] ▶
People don't really give him credit for that part of his work,
[2:22:34 - 2:22:37] ▶
but he had all sorts of issues with quantum mechanics as it's kind of ontological framework.
[2:22:37 - 2:22:41] ▶
And he would have debates with Niels Bohr and the Copenhagen school about what,
[2:22:41 - 2:22:46] ▶
this meant and what,
[2:22:47 - 2:22:48] ▶
what entanglement meant and how it was even possible,
[2:22:48 - 2:22:50] ▶
even though he was kind of responsible for a lot of early entanglement work,
[2:22:51 - 2:22:54] ▶
what did he get his Nobel prize in photoelectric effect?
[2:23:00 - 2:23:04] ▶
he received his Nobel prize for a quantum theory.
[2:23:09 - 2:23:14] ▶
And his general relativity,
[2:23:15 - 2:23:17] ▶
never got a Nobel prize.
[2:23:19 - 2:23:20] ▶
And the photoelectric effect,
[2:23:20 - 2:23:22] ▶
even when he discovered it in 1905,
[2:23:22 - 2:23:24] ▶
hadn't been experimentally proven.
[2:23:24 - 2:23:26] ▶
It was just a theory.
[2:23:26 - 2:23:27] ▶
and then it was later experimentally proven.
[2:23:28 - 2:23:30] ▶
obviously the photoelectric effect has had a,
[2:23:31 - 2:23:33] ▶
I'd be curious if somebody were to like,
[2:23:35 - 2:23:37] ▶
do research on this,
[2:23:38 - 2:23:39] ▶
but whether general relativity or special relativity has had a greater impact on our reality.
[2:23:39 - 2:23:45] ▶
the photoelectric effect,
[2:23:45 - 2:23:46] ▶
you wouldn't have like a TV,
[2:23:47 - 2:23:48] ▶
Like it's like literally just light in its interaction with like metal surfaces.
[2:23:48 - 2:23:51] ▶
And that's pretty key to like everything,
[2:23:51 - 2:23:53] ▶
even a lot of the stuff in quantum mechanics and then general relativity,
[2:23:53 - 2:23:57] ▶
that feels to me again,
[2:23:58 - 2:24:00] ▶
I'm a physics idiot,
[2:24:01 - 2:24:01] ▶
but like feels a little more important for like cosmology.
[2:24:01 - 2:24:05] ▶
I think we're kind of off on a lot of cosmological stuff.
[2:24:06 - 2:24:08] ▶
and that's kind of put a governor on propulsion,
[2:24:09 - 2:24:11] ▶
the speed of light is just the speed limit.
[2:24:14 - 2:24:16] ▶
It's the global speed limit.
[2:24:16 - 2:24:17] ▶
maybe actually the Nobel prize committee back then,
[2:24:20 - 2:24:23] ▶
knew what it was doing or something.
[2:24:23 - 2:24:25] ▶
the mathematician from India,
[2:24:27 - 2:24:29] ▶
he was writing really great,
[2:24:30 - 2:24:33] ▶
And he sent one to Albert Einstein said,
[2:24:37 - 2:24:40] ▶
nobody's listening to me.
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I'll put my name on it and then they'll listen.
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bosons are named after bows.
[2:24:48 - 2:24:50] ▶
it's just crazy that this guy that nobody believed from India that no one would pay attention to.
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As soon as Albert Einstein puts his name on it,
[2:25:02 - 2:25:06] ▶
Right up until Albert Einstein said,
[2:25:08 - 2:25:10] ▶
we like what other people like.
[2:25:16 - 2:25:17] ▶
And if they're of high stature,
[2:25:17 - 2:25:19] ▶
then all of a sudden that's this like really important stamp of approval.
[2:25:19 - 2:25:22] ▶
where do you think disclosure is headed?
[2:25:25 - 2:25:26] ▶
Do you think we'll get some exciting,
[2:25:26 - 2:25:28] ▶
revelation near term?
[2:25:29 - 2:25:31] ▶
Do you think it'll stay in this sort of liminal space of some people believing others not?
[2:25:31 - 2:25:35] ▶
I think this simple biggest problem is bureaucratic inertia.
[2:25:37 - 2:25:43] ▶
It takes somebody who is really strong in their beliefs,
[2:25:44 - 2:25:49] ▶
to step out from the group of people who are all agreeing how smart they are and,
[2:25:49 - 2:25:57] ▶
you're not smart about this one thing.
[2:26:02 - 2:26:04] ▶
And so you have to have the other people agree that,
[2:26:04 - 2:26:10] ▶
what you're talking about is true before the,
[2:26:11 - 2:26:15] ▶
entire group will finally begin to act as though it's true.
[2:26:17 - 2:26:20] ▶
I believe that we are to a point that realistically,
[2:26:21 - 2:26:24] ▶
we don't need to prove that UAP are real.
[2:26:24 - 2:26:28] ▶
We have plenty of evidence that UAP are real,
[2:26:28 - 2:26:32] ▶
but as long as we're still fighting the battle,
[2:26:32 - 2:26:35] ▶
we're missing the bigger battle,
[2:26:36 - 2:26:39] ▶
which is what are we going to do with it?
[2:26:39 - 2:26:42] ▶
And so we need to stop fighting over whether it's real because it is real.
[2:26:43 - 2:26:48] ▶
So now we need to figure out what on earth are we going to do with it?
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What do you think we should do with it?
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release a large part of the information being from the military.
[2:27:00 - 2:27:06] ▶
if I have an advantage,
[2:27:08 - 2:27:09] ▶
if I'm flying an F 16 and I have an advantage over another jet,
[2:27:12 - 2:27:17] ▶
I'm not going to tell you what my advantage is.
[2:27:19 - 2:27:21] ▶
there are so many elements of what UAPs mean to humans,
[2:27:23 - 2:27:32] ▶
to technology that I think it is irresponsible to continue to say,
[2:27:32 - 2:27:39] ▶
there's nothing to see here.
[2:27:39 - 2:27:41] ▶
we can already see it.
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when you stand up and say that you just look stupid.
[2:27:45 - 2:27:48] ▶
and then if we accept that we look stupid.
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We need to be moving beyond stupidity and we need to be making progress.
[2:27:53 - 2:27:58] ▶
The only way we're going to make progress is to get meaningful disclosure.
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But the people who own the processes are the ones who will determine whether or not the disclosure occurs.
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who's reportedly an EG&G employee,
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not too many years before you're citing,
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Do you think that your story adds corroboration to his stated work at area 51 reverse engineering,
[2:28:20 - 2:28:27] ▶
I would say it does.
[2:28:29 - 2:28:30] ▶
his story is very complex.
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don't know which elements I would say this really adds to it.
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And when this one doesn't add much to it,
[2:28:42 - 2:28:46] ▶
I could really judge that was if I ever,
[2:28:46 - 2:28:48] ▶
met him and we had a long discussion,
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just the two of us with nobody listening.
[2:28:52 - 2:28:54] ▶
to a certain extent,
[2:28:57 - 2:28:58] ▶
one of the things I mentioned was that,
[2:28:59 - 2:29:01] ▶
the corners and the,
[2:29:12 - 2:29:15] ▶
the sections of his craft and smooth it out,
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as I've described with this egg,
[2:29:18 - 2:29:20] ▶
it would be very much like his sports model.
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now I don't know if they're at all related,
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it would be a lot like it.
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It sounds very similar.
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It sounds just like a smoother pearly white version.
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Of it where you don't have this kind of cockpit,
[2:29:36 - 2:29:39] ▶
it just kind of smooths.
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that was used in combat aviation,
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and then you look at the smooth surfaces of the F 22 and the F 35,
[2:29:52 - 2:29:58] ▶
you don't see big fat wings.
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vertical stabilizers.
[2:30:06 - 2:30:08] ▶
You don't see great big engines with propellers on them.
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they're both flight vehicles.
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And at the time they,
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they were both viable,
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the modern version is smooth so that you're not going to reflect radar wise.
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fighting aircraft in world war one,
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there were no radars.
[2:30:34 - 2:30:35] ▶
They didn't worry about a radar cross section.
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they had no idea about that.
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And even in world war two,
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we were able to make some progression,
[2:30:44 - 2:30:47] ▶
but it was easier to just drop a bunch of aluminum pieces and call it window
[2:30:47 - 2:30:52] ▶
because it reflects so much of the radar wide waves.
[2:30:52 - 2:30:57] ▶
and then we can sneak our airplane in stealth was dropping pieces of aluminum from your airplane.
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that was as good as it got at that point.
[2:31:07 - 2:31:10] ▶
So we continue to make steady progress.
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the only way to really make progress is to give the best,
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construction capabilities to the smartest people.
[2:31:23 - 2:31:25] ▶
I guess you brought,
[2:31:30 - 2:31:31] ▶
you brought these really interesting patches.
[2:31:31 - 2:31:33] ▶
do you have like maybe one or two favorites that we can just show the audience?
[2:31:34 - 2:31:38] ▶
I think these were really cool.
[2:31:38 - 2:31:39] ▶
desert storm is one of my favorites.
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that's the one that we used before desert storm.
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that's pretty awesome.
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Do you want to share that?
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if we hold the two of them together,
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you'll be able to see the difference.
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So this one shows Saudi Arabia and the sand in the color.
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And it says desert storm,
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this is the one that,
[2:32:17 - 2:32:19] ▶
during the whole time we were developing it.
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And so it showed our aircraft.
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It sort of gives clues as to what it was,
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really doesn't tell you what joint stars was about.
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we did this in desert storm.
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after joint stars was demonstrated in desert storm,
[2:32:39 - 2:32:43] ▶
we decided we will never go into combat without the synthetic aperture radar that was developed by,
[2:32:43 - 2:32:50] ▶
I wanted to show the audience,
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you have playing cards here,
[2:32:56 - 2:32:58] ▶
if you're involved in a,
[2:33:00 - 2:33:01] ▶
in a hostage situation,
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maybe you're the hostage keeper,
[2:33:03 - 2:33:05] ▶
that was what we used in back in the cold war.
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So this is the cold war.
[2:33:10 - 2:33:11] ▶
And so these were actual playing cards that you can play cards with.
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the purpose was that,
[2:33:18 - 2:33:20] ▶
we had English and Russian.
[2:33:23 - 2:33:25] ▶
if we wanted to show what a word is in English,
[2:33:27 - 2:33:31] ▶
they would read it in Russian and it was a means for us to communicate.
[2:33:31 - 2:33:37] ▶
you have medicine and then you have the Russian word for medicine.
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I'll let you pronounce the Russian one.
[2:33:43 - 2:33:44] ▶
and then you have the Russian word for Jeep.
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if you're trying to communicate with them,
[2:33:51 - 2:33:53] ▶
you can do that through,
[2:33:53 - 2:33:54] ▶
you build a rapport with your hostage through these playing cards.
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some cold war memorabilia.
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it's been an absolute honor,
[2:34:08 - 2:34:10] ▶
I really admire your courage and I appreciate you speaking out not only about your
[2:34:12 - 2:34:15] ▶
the other things you've faced,
[2:34:18 - 2:34:19] ▶
as a flight surgeon and,
[2:34:20 - 2:34:22] ▶
as a director of aerospace medicine,
[2:34:22 - 2:34:24] ▶
who is essential to all sorts of operations as evidenced by your various patches,
[2:34:25 - 2:34:30] ▶
your core testimony,
[2:34:33 - 2:34:34] ▶
I think should be added to the,
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the public repository,
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the public canon of official sightings.
[2:34:40 - 2:34:44] ▶
and many people see,
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close and count of the,
[2:34:46 - 2:34:46] ▶
and third kind out in the wilderness or in the air or,
[2:34:48 - 2:34:51] ▶
but you are yours is in like an,
[2:34:52 - 2:34:54] ▶
And so I think that's kind of,
[2:34:56 - 2:34:58] ▶
those are in a league of their own and that's,
[2:34:58 - 2:35:00] ▶
that's really interesting.
[2:35:00 - 2:35:01] ▶
One of the most interesting things was that I,
[2:35:02 - 2:35:04] ▶
I recently found out that the Jesse Marcel library in Montana has put up an article about me in their library.
[2:35:04 - 2:35:15] ▶
I'm going to speak to him,
[2:35:18 - 2:35:19] ▶
later this month on the 19th and we'll do a zoom call,
[2:35:20 - 2:35:24] ▶
but I never expected my name and Jesse Marcel's to be associated.
[2:35:24 - 2:35:30] ▶
it makes sense because Jesse Marcel senior was an army intelligence officer,
[2:35:30 - 2:35:34] ▶
but junior was an air force flight surgeon.
[2:35:34 - 2:35:37] ▶
you're part of the lineage and it's pretty amazing.
[2:35:39 - 2:35:42] ▶
remember this testimony.
[2:35:46 - 2:35:48] ▶
It's a very important one.
[2:35:48 - 2:35:49] ▶
And I want to give a huge shout out by the way to,
[2:35:49 - 2:35:52] ▶
this is an absolute honor.
[2:35:56 - 2:35:57] ▶
Really appreciate you,
[2:35:58 - 2:35:58] ▶
I appreciate being here.
[2:36:00 - 2:36:01] ▶