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I'm Richard Dode. I was assigned as a special agent with Air Force Office Special Investigations
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at Carlin Air Force Base. It was a counterintelligence officer at the base, and one of my jobs was
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to conduct the Conantologist Operations at the base.
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And during my time there, my first few months there, I was briefed into a special access
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program involving the U.S. government's investigation and contacts with us to trust you.
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The visitation of these ex-re trust jails to Earth.
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And the Air Force is an involvement with these ex-re trust jails.
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And during this time I conducted investigations regarding not just the UFO phenomena, but
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my primary mission, I probably 60% of my time was dealt to investigating the UFO sightings
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and any threats imposed by these ex-re trust jails on Air Force or Air Force related property.
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What year did you first get rid into the project?
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I was ridden into the project in the summer of 1979.
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And the briefing was a special access program.
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I have a special security clearance to have access to it.
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And I was briefed into it by an Air Force colonel from Washington who came down and briefed
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myself and a couple other people into this program.
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Do you remember if it had a code name or a project code number?
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Yeah, it was the initial, how do I say this?
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Because there's still some classifications involved in this, I think.
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So it was the code name that I was briefed into, it was Yankee Black.
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But that was the program's briefing.
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It wasn't necessarily the UFO's program, it was actually a security code for an access
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Yankee White was access to the White House.
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And Yankee Black was the access that you would have to have to get into this program
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or write it into the program.
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What were you told during this briefing and you even called the colonel's name?
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I'll leave the colonel's name out of it.
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The briefing started with the US's involvement with the sex at Trustio and it started out
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with a crash at Roswell.
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But actually the crash didn't actually happen in Roswell.
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And closer to Corona, New Mexico, a southwest of Corona, New Mexico.
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And a second crash site that occurred in Magdalena or a horse mace out west of Magdalena,
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New Mexico, which wasn't located at the same time the Roswell crash was in 47.
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The crash in Magdalena wasn't located until about 49.
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Did they share with you what they found during that investigation and recovery?
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They showed us a movie.
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It actually showed us a movie on the recovery.
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And the narrator of the movie, obviously the movie was classified, had a classified.
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The narrator of the movie detailed when the crash occurred, approximately when the crash
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occurred in the latter part of June of 1947 and the recovery, showing a military
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personnel recovery site, recovering the bodies at the site and the craft that was at that
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And one live extraterrestrial was found at the site.
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And we were told that the extraterrestrial went to Courland Field, Courland Air Force
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Base at that time and then onto Los Alamos for some time.
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And it didn't explain fully in the movie exactly what happened to that extraterrestrial
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though it did explain that it died in, I believe it was 1952.
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But the bodies of the extraterrestrials that were found at the scene were in a deep freeze,
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placed in a deep freeze and sent to Wright Pat Field in a deep denial.
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Did they show the actual footage of the craft and bodies?
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Where did it look like?
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The craft was more or less an over-egg-shaped craft and wasn't a saucer-shaped.
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The creatures were about four foot.
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Some of the creatures were mangled, were heavily injured and their bodies were torn apart.
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But two of the bodies were pretty much intact and I'm not sure how, why, if there was an
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autopsy they didn't discuss that.
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But the creatures were approximately four foot.
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They had, didn't appear to have any ears.
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They had indentation from nose, very, very big eyes.
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They had a really tight-fitting suit.
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Almost looked like they were nude but they actually had a very thin but tight-fitting suit
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The fingers had no thumbs, just four fingers.
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Succeed devices under tips of their fingers.
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One of them had a head-up or at a son, maybe a helmet or some kind of earphone or some
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type of device that they were communicating with the craft or with something else.
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They found a number of different objects in the craft that they experimented with and
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They thought with plexiglass it was a rectangle plexiglass that they kept for years before
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they figured out it was the energy device for the craft.
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Then they showed us the recovery of the craft in 1949 in horse mesa.
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That craft had crashed at the same time, the 47 craft crashed.
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Because of the remoteness of that location, it wasn't detected until a rancher found
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it on his property in 1949.
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They did a recovery project on that craft.
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The bodies were decayed.
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There wasn't much left of the body but the craft was the same type of craft that was
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found near corona, it was an oval-shaped craft, but it had damage to it, just like the one
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I think the opinion of the scientists were the two crafts crashed for some reason which
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was never explained.
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I think nobody has it right.
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One of the things that is quite disgusting for the people who have ever been briefed
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in this program is there's not much out there that's actual factual.
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The UFO community disinforms themselves.
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They provide that people go out there and write books and without any facts, 90% of everybody
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that writes these books, these authors, and never been in a military, never worked for
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the intelligence community, never had a security clearance, and they're just relying on second,
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third and fourth hand information to write a book and then point, basically, poison their
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readers and the rest of the UFO community.
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The July craft actually crashed in the end of June.
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The recovery project was into July because it was at the end of June and people just didn't
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get it right and the UFO community didn't get it right.
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There's some people out there that have tried to present the facts but they've been ridiculed
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and so their information is not being believed.
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But just like the horse mace of crash in 49, very few people have that fact factual.
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They think it was entirely different.
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The craft was exactly the same as the corona craft, exactly the same.
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The damages they showed in this movie, they showed sketches of the crafts together at
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some location and it appeared, if anybody with a logical mind can see that these crafts
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I believe the ebony they call this particular entity that lived in ebony.
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He probably explained but I was never briefed into exactly how he explained the two crafts
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I know it was a lightning storm, it was a storm in that time period when it was when they
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The two crashes have been separated by some people and then discounted by others within the
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That's what is so disgusting and troubling within the UFO community.
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That's why I have nothing to do with them anymore.
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I've went to UFO conventions and tried to explain what the truth is and nobody wants to hear
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you because they've written a book that says it happened this way and they're not going
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to listen to you even though they don't really don't know the truth.
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Don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up.
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So did the craft, do you describe the actual craft more to show enough of it to get any
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detail of the sense of the size?
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It was about 35 foot diameter across, I mean, 35 by I think 42 or something like that.
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The interior craft was, it didn't have any actual levers or flight control systems that
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we would identify as a flight control system or avionics that we would identify as flight
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It totally unknown devices in the craft, the steering mechanisms.
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But eventually I think over some time figured it out and it was done all by hands.
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The creatures would put their hands on controls and they'd have this headset on and this
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headset would somehow control or help them control the aircraft.
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The avionics were very, very sophisticated avionics that it took us years, I think, to figure
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I was never briefed into that so I can't talk.
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I don't know anything about what they figured out.
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But they took the crafts to Wright Patterson and at the time in the late 40s, that was probably
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the best place to understand or try to figure out.
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They had the best scientists there to figure out how these crafts flew.
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The energy device used to kind of like plexiglass or translucent, some sort of translucent object.
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Did you ever get read into any of the Otis operandi or how they figure out how that worked?
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I was not directly briefed in but at some time in my career I read a document in Washington
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that explained the US scientists understanding what this was.
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It was an energy device that used zero-point energy.
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That's what they referred it to, a zero-point energy.
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It was connected in such a manner that this device could power, I mean, from a very
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small flashlight or a very small watch up to a city.
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The power was determined by what the demand on it was.
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Each craft had one of these.
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The craft at Krash in Magdalena or in Morse Mesa, West had a larger energy device than
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the one found in Corona.
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I don't think they could understand why but they operated in the same manner.
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They figure out how to apply that into other research projects.
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Did you find out if this was then studied and put into experimental US prototypes?
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I was never briefed in that program.
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I'm sure they did but I can't talk about that because I can only talk about what I've
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done and what I've seen.
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I was never briefed into that.
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So after this briefing, was anything else in the briefing that stood out from the
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The briefing pertained to the threat posed by extraterrestrial crafts.
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Then also briefed on some other alien crafts that had visited Earth.
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There were four types of crafts that they showed us, four types of extraterrestrials.
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They never explained to us where they got the pictures of these extraterrestrials.
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But there were pictures of these weird looking creatures that showed on the film that were
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extraterrestrials from some other location different from where the events came from.
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One was like an insect.
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And huge high eyes, very large head, a small body.
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They had two different appendages on their arms.
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They had basically two hands on each arm.
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They had several joints in their legs.
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They had a bubble type of appendage in the front and a lump or something in the back.
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That was one of them.
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The other one was a size of an average human, probably between five foot and six foot tall.
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The second one was a very tall, thin, very, very thin humanoid that had long arms, arms
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reached down probably to its knees or halfway between their hips and their feet.
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They had regular hands.
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Their faces were very, very thin.
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They were almost human looking.
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Unless you really, really study them, you've got real close to them.
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And then you determine they weren't human.
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I mean, you couldn't identify them as human beings.
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They didn't have any hair.
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They had a cat-like eyes.
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Their irises were different than that of a human, almost cat-like.
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And then there was a third creature that was a, I found this out later, but at the time,
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they just showed the creature.
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And it looked something like the ebony, but it was bigger.
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It had a bigger body.
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But I found out later in a briefing I had in 1985 that that was a genetically engineered
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creature that the ebony's made.
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And that was a briefing in 1985 based on investigation that we were doing.
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The day color was genetically engineered.
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They knew it was genetically engineered.
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And I don't know how.
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They never tell us how.
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But they regained to the neural complex within a great surface.
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Were there any craft associated with these other species?
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One was a cigar-shaped craft.
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One was, excuse me, I think it was like 60 or 70 feet long and 20 or 30 feet wide.
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A second one was a regular saucer shape, but it was really, really wide.
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It almost looked like one of those tops that the kids play with.
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Really, really wide.
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And they were puzzled, I remember, in the briefing, in the initial briefing, the
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colonel said, we still can't figure out how this thing flies.
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So they pictured it.
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They took pictures of it.
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But I don't know that they'd ever actually captured one.
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At least at that point I didn't know.
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And they never told us that.
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And then there was another craft.
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It was very, very small.
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It was about the size of a Volkswagen.
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But it was a saucer shape.
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But it was, excuse me, an oval shape, almost like the even, but a lot smaller.
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It was almost like it was a one-seater, a one-seater type of, maybe, an observation or a reconnaissance
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And that was the only craft that they briefed us that was in a presentation.
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And they were actually, they saw photos of those.
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Yeah, they had photos of them.
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Actually, in the film, they showed photos in the film of these creatures.
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I mean, of these crafts.
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And the film started, you could tell that the film was an old film when it started, maybe
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in the 50s or early 50s or late 40s.
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It didn't have a date on it.
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But then as a film, as the briefing went on, it got more modern.
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And I mean, the information in it became more modern.
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And you could see, based on what was shown in the movie, that it was a, the information
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was more current than the first part of the film was.
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And the pictures of these crafts that we saw in a latter part of the, and this, the crafts
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were in a latter part of the film, was something that I've seen since on TV, on the history
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channel that, that other people have taken.
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Like the Ming, Ming mill craft.
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One of the crafts in there looked just exactly like, if you're familiar with the Ming, Ming
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I think that was in 51 or 50 or something back in the 50s.
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Did the, the kernel or during this briefing and subsequent briefing, that they ever explained
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to you what the perceived threat was that they were concerned about?
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The threat to, number one, the first perceived threat was, what were they after?
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Was it a reconnaissance?
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With these reconnaissance flight, were they going to a recon before an invasion?
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It was, were they going to land and take over some particular facility for their own purpose?
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Were they short of minerals?
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Because a lot of, a lot of what we were told towards the end of the film was that a lot
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of these crafts later on were seen over uranium mines and, and other mining areas.
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And so they're concerned, what are they after?
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Are they after uranium or turn into plutonium or, or, or, or exactly what they're after?
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And so our job was to investigate, you know, and determine, was there a, was there a threat?
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And if there was a threat, report it up the chain of command and, and hope it wasn't
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Like from their technologies, they'd gone a little bit past nuclear power, but, but, but,
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was there any sense that the, the advent of all these of these occurrences had to do with
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the fact that we had developed atomic weapons?
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Was, Roswell, of course, had the atomic bomb squadron, the only one in the world at the
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time, and this facility here and uranium mines and, et cetera, the Colonel Dietrich's
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image, you know, is one of the disclosure projects that every single one of our facilities
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had had reconnaissance.
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So, it was that discussed?
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Well, they, they inferred it that the, that they were concerned because, whether it
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Colonel put it, and I think this was some of his own feelings at the time when he, when
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he talked to us later, was that, you know, we just had a, we just had a, drop two bombs,
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nuclear weapons on a country.
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We had a test of that bomb a few months earlier, a few weeks earlier in New Mexico, and this
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probably was observed by these aliens somewhere, whether they were doing reconnaissance back
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then, or how they have figured it out.
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So they came here to observe and try to figure out what the heck was at, and maybe they
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didn't have a weapon like that, and maybe they did, and maybe they concerned about this
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earth for some particular reason, and, or maybe they were after those weapons.
[0:22:12 - 0:22:17] ▶
And, and that was a concern, because security in nuclear weapons was the number one priority
[0:22:17 - 0:22:24] ▶
of, of, of the United States.
[0:22:24 - 0:22:26] ▶
Air Force, because Air Force had a lot of nuclear weapons.
[0:22:26 - 0:22:29] ▶
One of the primary missions for OSI was protect, counterintelligence operations against the
[0:22:29 - 0:22:35] ▶
threat of nuclear weapons, and, and, and Kirkland Air Force Base had a lot of nuclear weapons.
[0:22:35 - 0:22:42] ▶
And New Mexico had, at the time, like you said, the 509th bombing at Roswell had the
[0:22:42 - 0:22:48] ▶
only nuclear capable strike force in the United States at that time.
[0:22:48 - 0:22:52] ▶
So, were there subsequent briefings, but from the 79 and 85 ones, were there further updates
[0:22:55 - 0:23:03] ▶
during their career?
[0:23:03 - 0:23:05] ▶
When we, when we were investigating something, we then asked for a briefing on it, because
[0:23:05 - 0:23:11] ▶
we didn't get everything.
[0:23:11 - 0:23:13] ▶
We were, we were, we were given enough to conduct an investigation, have some historical
[0:23:13 - 0:23:19] ▶
knowledge on what we were investigating.
[0:23:19 - 0:23:22] ▶
But then when we, we, in, in 81, I believe it was 1981, there was a, a scientist, who died,
[0:23:22 - 0:23:32] ▶
a scientist, a Air Force scientist, who passed away, and he had a, an old army footlocker
[0:23:32 - 0:23:39] ▶
full of autopsy photographs.
[0:23:39 - 0:23:44] ▶
And these autopsy photographs were of, of the creatures that died in the corona crash.
[0:23:44 - 0:23:50] ▶
And so, we went out to recover all this stuff.
[0:23:50 - 0:23:54] ▶
And I looked at these things, and it didn't look like humans to me.
[0:23:54 - 0:23:56] ▶
I, you know, I looked at this, and these were actual, you know, being a doctor, you understand
[0:23:56 - 0:24:01] ▶
autopsy photographs.
[0:24:01 - 0:24:03] ▶
And they were, you know, still photographs of autopsy, but they had organs out.
[0:24:03 - 0:24:08] ▶
And, and I had a little bit of medical knowledge, not a whole lot.
[0:24:08 - 0:24:11] ▶
But I had a little bit of medical knowledge, and looked at this, and I said, doesn't look
[0:24:11 - 0:24:15] ▶
like a heart, or doesn't look like a lung.
[0:24:15 - 0:24:17] ▶
But what we found out was, and true, that these abins had just one organ that was made up
[0:24:17 - 0:24:23] ▶
of the heart and lungs.
[0:24:23 - 0:24:25] ▶
It was just one organ.
[0:24:25 - 0:24:26] ▶
And they had a couple different stomachs for different digestive reasons.
[0:24:26 - 0:24:33] ▶
And they had an organ that would take every single bit of moisture out of it, whatever
[0:24:33 - 0:24:40] ▶
they ate, and fed the body.
[0:24:40 - 0:24:43] ▶
So they didn't really have to drink a lot of fluids.
[0:24:43 - 0:24:47] ▶
Well, when, when I found all this stuff, I took it in, I, I immediately classified it.
[0:24:47 - 0:24:54] ▶
I asked for a briefing, what is this?
[0:24:54 - 0:24:56] ▶
Is this human or not?
[0:24:56 - 0:24:58] ▶
Well, that on the bottom of each photograph, there was a case number and a date.
[0:24:58 - 0:25:05] ▶
And the dates were in the 40s, 47.
[0:25:05 - 0:25:08] ▶
It was, I think there was September, something in 47.
[0:25:08 - 0:25:11] ▶
And the case, wasn't a case number that I recognized.
[0:25:11 - 0:25:15] ▶
So then I asked, and eventually I got a briefing by a scientist who was a medical doctor.
[0:25:15 - 0:25:22] ▶
He was out, he was from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington, DC.
[0:25:22 - 0:25:28] ▶
He came out and myself and the other agents that were involved in this, he briefed this.
[0:25:28 - 0:25:33] ▶
He basically gave us anatomy 101 of an extrastial.
[0:25:33 - 0:25:38] ▶
And he said, yeah, in fact, these are the autopsy photographs from Corona.
[0:25:38 - 0:25:42] ▶
Did they have any further details that they provided them?
[0:25:43 - 0:25:48] ▶
Maybe the brain or any other organs?
[0:25:48 - 0:25:50] ▶
The brain had it had, I don't remember how many lobes a human brain had.
[0:25:51 - 0:25:57] ▶
But they had 11 different lobes of their brain.
[0:25:57 - 0:26:00] ▶
And they had where their spinal cord met the brain, it had two little bulbs on each side,
[0:26:00 - 0:26:10] ▶
which they could never figure out what they were.
[0:26:11 - 0:26:13] ▶
It wasn't like ours.
[0:26:13 - 0:26:15] ▶
And their eyes were very sophisticated.
[0:26:15 - 0:26:19] ▶
They had the optic nerves, but the optic nerves went into different places in the brain.
[0:26:19 - 0:26:25] ▶
Almost as if the brain was operating, their eyes were operating at different parts of the brain for some particular reason.
[0:26:25 - 0:26:33] ▶
And were there any reproductive organs or did they get a sense of it?
[0:26:36 - 0:26:40] ▶
They didn't find, you know, I wasn't briefed on anything like that.
[0:26:40 - 0:26:44] ▶
None of them were females.
[0:26:44 - 0:26:46] ▶
So they, I think, even once told them that there were females, but there wasn't any females on any of these crafts.
[0:26:46 - 0:26:55] ▶
They were all males.
[0:26:55 - 0:26:56] ▶
Did they have penises?
[0:26:56 - 0:26:57] ▶
They had a reproductive gland.
[0:26:58 - 0:27:00] ▶
They didn't call it a penis, they call it a reproductive gland.
[0:27:00 - 0:27:03] ▶
It was in the body, and I guess at the time of, you know, it came out.
[0:27:04 - 0:27:10] ▶
That's what they figured.
[0:27:10 - 0:27:12] ▶
Their muscles were extremely fibrous.
[0:27:12 - 0:27:16] ▶
And remember that, especially a lot of leg muscles.
[0:27:16 - 0:27:20] ▶
They weren't bulky, but they were strong.
[0:27:20 - 0:27:24] ▶
They were fiverred, which I guess gave more strength than what are muscles.
[0:27:24 - 0:27:30] ▶
They didn't have ears, but they had a canal with a norang in their gland.
[0:27:31 - 0:27:38] ▶
I think they call it a little bulb that they think was what they could hear out of.
[0:27:38 - 0:27:45] ▶
But they didn't have vocal cords like we had.
[0:27:45 - 0:27:48] ▶
The vocal cord, they didn't have any.
[0:27:48 - 0:27:50] ▶
So this, another thing that was breaded in the briefing was very fascinating to me.
[0:27:50 - 0:27:55] ▶
When this creature was found, he couldn't communicate other than hand signals.
[0:27:56 - 0:28:00] ▶
So when he was taken in to Los Alamos, to a medical facility at Los Alamos,
[0:28:00 - 0:28:07] ▶
and examined, of course, that the physicians didn't know what they were examining,
[0:28:07 - 0:28:12] ▶
they figured out they eventually were able to communicate through sign language.
[0:28:12 - 0:28:17] ▶
And eventually somehow somebody figured out how to do an operation on the vocal cord
[0:28:17 - 0:28:24] ▶
or something in there so it could talk.
[0:28:25 - 0:28:29] ▶
So it could make sounds.
[0:28:29 - 0:28:31] ▶
And I don't know how they did that.
[0:28:31 - 0:28:35] ▶
Did this living ET share how they communicated with each other?
[0:28:35 - 0:28:42] ▶
Well, I wasn't directly ever briefed on that, but I found out some years later
[0:28:45 - 0:28:50] ▶
that they did it telepathically.
[0:28:50 - 0:28:54] ▶
Were there any humans that became adapted doing that with them?
[0:28:54 - 0:28:59] ▶
Yes, it was a handler.
[0:28:59 - 0:29:02] ▶
Even live, they even won.
[0:29:02 - 0:29:05] ▶
He had an Air Force captain that was a sign to him.
[0:29:05 - 0:29:10] ▶
And the captain was a linguist, spoke, I don't know how many different languages.
[0:29:10 - 0:29:14] ▶
But he was also a intelligence officer.
[0:29:14 - 0:29:16] ▶
And he was able to build a really good rapport with the ebony
[0:29:17 - 0:29:21] ▶
and was able to communicate far more communications than anyone else could.
[0:29:21 - 0:29:28] ▶
And he actually lived with this ebony for, I think, three or four years until I died.
[0:29:28 - 0:29:34] ▶
You know the names of any of the other agencies or project code numbers or code names
[0:29:34 - 0:29:40] ▶
that were associated with this subject back in that era?
[0:29:40 - 0:29:44] ▶
A DIA, Defense Intelligence Agency, was intimately involved in it.
[0:29:44 - 0:29:48] ▶
Everything that we sent up, ended up, everything we sent up through OSI headquarters,
[0:29:48 - 0:29:53] ▶
And there was a guy by the name Tom Mack.
[0:29:56 - 0:30:01] ▶
Tom Mack was a project manager for, in DIA, for this project.
[0:30:01 - 0:30:09] ▶
The projects had various names.
[0:30:10 - 0:30:15] ▶
And some of the names are just phonetic, phonetic name, like Quebec.
[0:30:15 - 0:30:24] ▶
Phonetic alphabet, military phonetical alphabet, the Q, you would say,
[0:30:24 - 0:30:29] ▶
if you were talking over the radio, Quebec, Q for Quebec.
[0:30:29 - 0:30:32] ▶
And so we would use phonetic for a particular operation with a district,
[0:30:32 - 0:30:41] ▶
a number, one of our district numbers, and then a case, a progressive number,
[0:30:41 - 0:30:47] ▶
we call it after that.
[0:30:47 - 0:30:49] ▶
So you might have a Q 17, which district 17 was OSI in Courland,
[0:30:49 - 0:30:54] ▶
and then a progressive number for the case number.
[0:30:54 - 0:30:58] ▶
But if you went to P04 space, I went up to P04 space, which is no longer there,
[0:30:59 - 0:31:05] ▶
but it's in Northern New York, is a SAC based,
[0:31:05 - 0:31:09] ▶
Gigi Gare's Command and Compase.
[0:31:09 - 0:31:11] ▶
They had a very peculiarly incident happened up there of a UFO that was flying around
[0:31:11 - 0:31:16] ▶
their nuclear weapon storage area.
[0:31:16 - 0:31:18] ▶
It actually landed, and the weapon had been taken apart.
[0:31:18 - 0:31:23] ▶
Not the warhead wasn't stolen, but somehow it was taken apart,
[0:31:23 - 0:31:29] ▶
and there was anybody in this bunker to do that, so they figured how to heck this happened.
[0:31:29 - 0:31:33] ▶
So they thought maybe it was a Russian operation or something,
[0:31:33 - 0:31:36] ▶
and so we went up there, and during this briefing, I mean during this operation,
[0:31:36 - 0:31:44] ▶
we found prints, fingerprints, but they weren't like our fingerprints.
[0:31:44 - 0:31:52] ▶
They were very strange looking prints.
[0:31:52 - 0:31:57] ▶
Now, if remember what I told you about one of the creatures had two hands,
[0:31:57 - 0:32:02] ▶
I want to arm, I want to appendage, it appeared that something like that had gotten in there.
[0:32:02 - 0:32:08] ▶
Somehow I got in it, and we know what everybody could figure it out,
[0:32:08 - 0:32:11] ▶
because it's a very secure area, you could figure it,
[0:32:11 - 0:32:14] ▶
nuclear weapon storage is very secure, but they had fingerprints.
[0:32:14 - 0:32:18] ▶
So now we have fingerprints, and that was the first time that we as a government
[0:32:18 - 0:32:24] ▶
actually got extraterrestrial fingerprints.
[0:32:24 - 0:32:27] ▶
That was in 1984, it was 1984.
[0:32:27 - 0:32:31] ▶
Yeah, it was winter times, I don't remember,
[0:32:31 - 0:32:35] ▶
it was late winter, early winter, because it was snow on the ground,
[0:32:35 - 0:32:39] ▶
of course, upstate New York, it's pretty bad.
[0:32:39 - 0:32:42] ▶
But I thought that was fascinating, but we never could figure out anything other than
[0:32:42 - 0:32:47] ▶
that it got in, and it took fingerprints.
[0:32:47 - 0:32:52] ▶
Now, there were many, many, many cases of UFOs spotted around
[0:32:52 - 0:32:59] ▶
nuclear weapons facility, launch control facilities,
[0:32:59 - 0:33:02] ▶
Ellsworth Air Force Base, Mellstrom Air Force Base,
[0:33:02 - 0:33:07] ▶
and then SAC bases that had nuclear weapons.
[0:33:07 - 0:33:11] ▶
Yes, juj-juj-juj-gare command bases.
[0:33:11 - 0:33:15] ▶
Yeah, the current detourants at virtually every facility had it.
[0:33:15 - 0:33:20] ▶
Yeah, I read a report where almost virtually everything was,
[0:33:20 - 0:33:24] ▶
but some of them were more intrusive than just the security forces
[0:33:24 - 0:33:30] ▶
seeing something flying around compared to creatures found inside an area.
[0:33:30 - 0:33:38] ▶
And we had that at Kirkland in 1980,
[0:33:38 - 0:33:42] ▶
where security police at Manzano complex,
[0:33:42 - 0:33:47] ▶
which were the nuclear weapons restored,
[0:33:47 - 0:33:50] ▶
saw these strange lights out at Coyote Canyon,
[0:33:50 - 0:33:53] ▶
which was east of the complex, the nuclear weapons complex,
[0:33:53 - 0:33:57] ▶
and something landed.
[0:33:57 - 0:34:00] ▶
And so I conducted that investigation, which was extensive investigation,
[0:34:00 - 0:34:04] ▶
which led into the Paul Benowitz incident.
[0:34:04 - 0:34:08] ▶
What was that all about? What actually happened with that?
[0:34:08 - 0:34:11] ▶
Paul Benowitz, or the...
[0:34:11 - 0:34:13] ▶
Okay. I've seen some of the documents about the Coyote Canyon event,
[0:34:14 - 0:34:17] ▶
and also an earlier one, or around that time,
[0:34:17 - 0:34:21] ▶
where one of your security officers saw a disk out on the...
[0:34:21 - 0:34:26] ▶
Actually, one of the security officers from Sandia Laboratories
[0:34:26 - 0:34:31] ▶
had their own security, was checking...
[0:34:31 - 0:34:34] ▶
It was driving around on a graveyard shift,
[0:34:34 - 0:34:36] ▶
sometime after two o'clock in the morning,
[0:34:36 - 0:34:39] ▶
and saw a craft land at a bunker.
[0:34:39 - 0:34:44] ▶
But the bunker didn't have anything in it,
[0:34:44 - 0:34:46] ▶
but the craft landed.
[0:34:46 - 0:34:48] ▶
And when it landed, all the electronics in the vehicle shut off,
[0:34:48 - 0:34:52] ▶
his engine shut off, his portable radio stop transmitting,
[0:34:52 - 0:34:56] ▶
his portable radio in the vehicle stop,
[0:34:56 - 0:34:59] ▶
for as long as that craft was on the ground,
[0:34:59 - 0:35:01] ▶
when the craft took off, everything came back on.
[0:35:01 - 0:35:04] ▶
And so I investigated that.
[0:35:04 - 0:35:08] ▶
And all we found was that something landed there.
[0:35:08 - 0:35:12] ▶
The first thing I did was check with FAA.
[0:35:16 - 0:35:20] ▶
And we had also at Curtlyn, we had a...
[0:35:20 - 0:35:24] ▶
At that point, at that time, it was pretty secretive unit
[0:35:24 - 0:35:29] ▶
that scanned every single frequency that could possibly be generated
[0:35:29 - 0:35:35] ▶
around the base, radio frequencies.
[0:35:35 - 0:35:38] ▶
And so I went to them, and I said,
[0:35:38 - 0:35:40] ▶
hey, did you guys pick up any strange frequencies
[0:35:40 - 0:35:42] ▶
on this particular time frame?
[0:35:42 - 0:35:44] ▶
I said, okay, I went to FAA.
[0:35:46 - 0:35:48] ▶
Let me see your printouts for this night.
[0:35:48 - 0:35:50] ▶
So then I saw one of these guys making this up, or what?
[0:35:52 - 0:35:55] ▶
Well, then a security police inside Manzano,
[0:35:55 - 0:35:59] ▶
I interviewed them separately,
[0:35:59 - 0:36:01] ▶
and they told me the exact same story.
[0:36:01 - 0:36:04] ▶
So I thought, it's too...
[0:36:04 - 0:36:07] ▶
It just makes too much sense to be a fantasy or hoaxing.
[0:36:07 - 0:36:13] ▶
So we investigated, but we could never find anything
[0:36:13 - 0:36:17] ▶
regarding that craft.
[0:36:17 - 0:36:19] ▶
But shortly after that,
[0:36:19 - 0:36:21] ▶
a major Ernie Edwards, who was the commander
[0:36:21 - 0:36:24] ▶
of the 16-o'-8 security police squadron,
[0:36:24 - 0:36:27] ▶
the security, Air Force security police
[0:36:27 - 0:36:29] ▶
at Garded, Manzano, came to me,
[0:36:29 - 0:36:32] ▶
and said, I got a phone call from a guy
[0:36:32 - 0:36:34] ▶
by name of Paul Benowitz.
[0:36:34 - 0:36:36] ▶
He lives right outside the base.
[0:36:36 - 0:36:38] ▶
He lives in four hills, which is a housing community,
[0:36:38 - 0:36:41] ▶
just on the other side of the base, perimeter.
[0:36:41 - 0:36:44] ▶
And he told me he saw all sorts of strange lights
[0:36:44 - 0:36:47] ▶
So I said, oh, that's strange.
[0:36:49 - 0:36:51] ▶
And so I started checking into it,
[0:36:51 - 0:36:53] ▶
and we found out that Paul Benowitz owned a business
[0:36:53 - 0:36:57] ▶
right outside the main gate of Courland,
[0:36:57 - 0:36:59] ▶
a thunder scientific laboratories.
[0:36:59 - 0:37:01] ▶
They made humidity sensors for submarines.
[0:37:01 - 0:37:04] ▶
So he had a government contract, and he had security clearance.
[0:37:04 - 0:37:07] ▶
So I went and paid him a visit,
[0:37:07 - 0:37:10] ▶
asking him about what he saw,
[0:37:10 - 0:37:12] ▶
and he started telling me all sorts of stories
[0:37:12 - 0:37:14] ▶
about what he saw and what he did and what he thinks they are.
[0:37:14 - 0:37:19] ▶
So we conducted an investigation just to make sure
[0:37:19 - 0:37:22] ▶
this guy wasn't a Russian spy.
[0:37:22 - 0:37:24] ▶
He wasn't doing all these things.
[0:37:24 - 0:37:27] ▶
His house was literally just a few feet from the base.
[0:37:27 - 0:37:30] ▶
I mean, his backyard bucked right up to the base perimeter.
[0:37:30 - 0:37:34] ▶
And he had all of this sophisticated,
[0:37:34 - 0:37:36] ▶
now he was a physicist.
[0:37:36 - 0:37:38] ▶
He had all this sophisticated equipment on his patio,
[0:37:38 - 0:37:42] ▶
his upper bedroom patio,
[0:37:42 - 0:37:44] ▶
that was pointed towards the base.
[0:37:44 - 0:37:46] ▶
And that's what we were concerned about.
[0:37:46 - 0:37:49] ▶
So we conducted an investigation on him,
[0:37:49 - 0:37:51] ▶
not only us, but National Security Agency,
[0:37:51 - 0:37:53] ▶
because he actually tapped in,
[0:37:53 - 0:37:55] ▶
and this was classified at one time,
[0:37:55 - 0:37:57] ▶
I believe it is classified anymore,
[0:37:57 - 0:38:00] ▶
to classify it anymore.
[0:38:00 - 0:38:02] ▶
He was tapped in to a National Security Agency
[0:38:02 - 0:38:05] ▶
and NSA project that was going on on base,
[0:38:05 - 0:38:09] ▶
and which he shouldn't have been able to figure it out,
[0:38:09 - 0:38:12] ▶
but he did, very smart guy.
[0:38:12 - 0:38:15] ▶
So we had to figure out how we're going to get him away
[0:38:15 - 0:38:18] ▶
from what he was doing.
[0:38:18 - 0:38:20] ▶
And so we started slowly convincing him,
[0:38:20 - 0:38:24] ▶
or not really convincing him,
[0:38:24 - 0:38:26] ▶
but just giving him an idea that this might be just UFOs,
[0:38:26 - 0:38:29] ▶
it was extraterrestrials.
[0:38:29 - 0:38:31] ▶
And he ran with that.
[0:38:31 - 0:38:32] ▶
And I know I had a lot of criticism about
[0:38:32 - 0:38:35] ▶
that I fed him all this disinformation,
[0:38:35 - 0:38:37] ▶
and I made him go crazy,
[0:38:37 - 0:38:39] ▶
but Paul thought a lot of this up on his own.
[0:38:39 - 0:38:44] ▶
I didn't have to, it wasn't very difficult for me
[0:38:44 - 0:38:47] ▶
to convince him what he was seeing.
[0:38:47 - 0:38:49] ▶
He just told me it's UFOs.
[0:38:49 - 0:38:52] ▶
Years later, I became friends with him.
[0:38:52 - 0:38:55] ▶
Years later, after I got out,
[0:38:55 - 0:38:58] ▶
I tried to explain to him that what he saw wasn't,
[0:38:58 - 0:39:01] ▶
but he would never believe me.
[0:39:01 - 0:39:03] ▶
He eventually went crazy,
[0:39:03 - 0:39:06] ▶
and he died some years later.
[0:39:06 - 0:39:08] ▶
But some of what he was seeing was he took pictures
[0:39:08 - 0:39:13] ▶
of strange-looking lights in orbs.
[0:39:13 - 0:39:18] ▶
and not just me, Jerry Miller,
[0:39:20 - 0:39:22] ▶
was a, he had been a project blue book investigator
[0:39:22 - 0:39:25] ▶
and he was in the intelligence staff at Courtenham,
[0:39:27 - 0:39:31] ▶
not with OASI, but with another agency.
[0:39:31 - 0:39:34] ▶
Him and I sat in a room,
[0:39:34 - 0:39:36] ▶
probably not any bigger than this,
[0:39:36 - 0:39:39] ▶
with real-of-tall ceilings.
[0:39:39 - 0:39:41] ▶
And Paul was sitting,
[0:39:41 - 0:39:43] ▶
and we just had dinner,
[0:39:43 - 0:39:45] ▶
and we came in, and we had some coffee,
[0:39:45 - 0:39:47] ▶
and the lights were down.
[0:39:47 - 0:39:49] ▶
In fact, none of the ceiling lights were on.
[0:39:49 - 0:39:52] ▶
We had just some table lights on.
[0:39:52 - 0:39:54] ▶
And we were talking, it was eight or nine o'clock at night,
[0:39:54 - 0:39:57] ▶
and he says he was explaining to us what he was seeing.
[0:39:59 - 0:40:02] ▶
And all of a sudden,
[0:40:02 - 0:40:03] ▶
we see this orb up in the corner of his room.
[0:40:03 - 0:40:06] ▶
and I watched it, nobody else saw it at first,
[0:40:08 - 0:40:10] ▶
and I kind of elbowed,
[0:40:10 - 0:40:12] ▶
it was three of us there.
[0:40:12 - 0:40:14] ▶
and another agent by name of Steve Atset.
[0:40:16 - 0:40:18] ▶
And I hit, and Jerry looked up,
[0:40:18 - 0:40:21] ▶
and we didn't say anything to Paul.
[0:40:22 - 0:40:24] ▶
And it started flying around a room,
[0:40:24 - 0:40:26] ▶
and then of course, Paul saw,
[0:40:26 - 0:40:28] ▶
and he said, well, there it is.
[0:40:28 - 0:40:30] ▶
And we looked around like,
[0:40:30 - 0:40:31] ▶
what the heck is this thing, you know?
[0:40:31 - 0:40:33] ▶
And so we watched it for maybe 20 seconds,
[0:40:33 - 0:40:37] ▶
and went right back to that spot.
[0:40:38 - 0:40:40] ▶
Well, Jerry thought that it was created by Paul.
[0:40:40 - 0:40:44] ▶
And Jerry confronted him,
[0:40:44 - 0:40:46] ▶
and he said, Paul, what did you just do?
[0:40:46 - 0:40:49] ▶
I said, no, I didn't do anything.
[0:40:49 - 0:40:51] ▶
He said, can I look,
[0:40:51 - 0:40:52] ▶
and can I check things out?
[0:40:52 - 0:40:53] ▶
Jerry's a scientist, too.
[0:40:55 - 0:40:56] ▶
went up to his room,
[0:40:57 - 0:40:58] ▶
couldn't find anything that could have generated something like this.
[0:40:59 - 0:41:03] ▶
It was a ball of light,
[0:41:03 - 0:41:06] ▶
with like little sparklers around it.
[0:41:06 - 0:41:09] ▶
that's their reconnaissance.
[0:41:13 - 0:41:17] ▶
That's how they keep an eye on me.
[0:41:17 - 0:41:19] ▶
And a few weeks later,
[0:41:19 - 0:41:22] ▶
we were in this house without him being there.
[0:41:22 - 0:41:26] ▶
Now, a lot of people are saying,
[0:41:26 - 0:41:28] ▶
we had shripped his chisentry.
[0:41:29 - 0:41:30] ▶
Paul, give me the key.
[0:41:32 - 0:41:33] ▶
Told me to keep my eye on.
[0:41:33 - 0:41:35] ▶
If you ever want to go in there,
[0:41:35 - 0:41:36] ▶
So we didn't get any search warrant or anything,
[0:41:37 - 0:41:39] ▶
but we went in there,
[0:41:39 - 0:41:40] ▶
or not the same size we saw,
[0:41:45 - 0:41:46] ▶
or the burn the hole through,
[0:41:47 - 0:41:49] ▶
through the ceiling.
[0:41:49 - 0:41:50] ▶
I mean, through his wall,
[0:41:50 - 0:41:51] ▶
from one room to another.
[0:41:51 - 0:41:53] ▶
And when we came back a couple of weeks later,
[0:41:53 - 0:41:55] ▶
we told him about it,
[0:41:55 - 0:41:56] ▶
and that burn hole was still there.
[0:41:56 - 0:41:58] ▶
at first, we thought Paul was just hallucinating, you know.
[0:42:00 - 0:42:05] ▶
But the more I looked into this,
[0:42:05 - 0:42:08] ▶
there was something to this.
[0:42:08 - 0:42:11] ▶
They were, they were,
[0:42:11 - 0:42:12] ▶
he was actually photographing extraterrestrials.
[0:42:12 - 0:42:16] ▶
Not so many, not so much of a creature,
[0:42:16 - 0:42:20] ▶
their reconnaissance,
[0:42:22 - 0:42:24] ▶
that they used to conduct experiments on humans.
[0:42:27 - 0:42:32] ▶
I don't remember how many,
[0:42:35 - 0:42:37] ▶
but he had a whole group of pictures
[0:42:37 - 0:42:39] ▶
that he had, I told him,
[0:42:39 - 0:42:41] ▶
the next time you take any pictures with your,
[0:42:41 - 0:42:43] ▶
he had a Canon 35 millimeter.
[0:42:43 - 0:42:46] ▶
One of those, well, at that time,
[0:42:46 - 0:42:48] ▶
He had a Canon 35 millimeter,
[0:42:49 - 0:42:50] ▶
if you ever take any pictures of UFOs,
[0:42:52 - 0:42:53] ▶
don't develop them, let us do it.
[0:42:53 - 0:42:56] ▶
so he calls me one day,
[0:42:58 - 0:42:59] ▶
he says, got a whole roll of 32 or 30,
[0:42:59 - 0:43:01] ▶
many's in one of those rolls,
[0:43:02 - 0:43:04] ▶
of photographs of these UFOs
[0:43:04 - 0:43:07] ▶
that I took over the base.
[0:43:07 - 0:43:09] ▶
So I went out and picked them up,
[0:43:09 - 0:43:11] ▶
took them over to our secure photo lab,
[0:43:11 - 0:43:13] ▶
gave them to our secure developers,
[0:43:13 - 0:43:15] ▶
and said, hey, develop these.
[0:43:15 - 0:43:17] ▶
And I stayed there watching,
[0:43:17 - 0:43:19] ▶
I said, I wanted some three by fives,
[0:43:19 - 0:43:22] ▶
and whatever you need.
[0:43:24 - 0:43:25] ▶
he came out with a me see,
[0:43:27 - 0:43:29] ▶
how are these things?
[0:43:29 - 0:43:31] ▶
And they're oval shaped,
[0:43:31 - 0:43:33] ▶
graphs, flying above planes
[0:43:33 - 0:43:36] ▶
that were landing at,
[0:43:36 - 0:43:38] ▶
now, Curtlyn Air Force Base
[0:43:38 - 0:43:39] ▶
shares a field of the
[0:43:39 - 0:43:41] ▶
albuquerque International Airport.
[0:43:41 - 0:43:43] ▶
So planes coming in,
[0:43:43 - 0:43:44] ▶
these things would fly right over top of them,
[0:43:44 - 0:43:47] ▶
and then they're off.
[0:43:47 - 0:43:49] ▶
And he's more like orbs,
[0:43:49 - 0:43:51] ▶
or they're structured.
[0:43:51 - 0:43:52] ▶
No, they were structured.
[0:43:52 - 0:43:54] ▶
They were structured.
[0:43:54 - 0:43:55] ▶
And I can't remember how many photographs they were,
[0:43:55 - 0:43:58] ▶
but they were structured,
[0:43:58 - 0:44:00] ▶
they were structured graphs,
[0:44:00 - 0:44:02] ▶
and we had them blown up.
[0:44:02 - 0:44:03] ▶
I mean, these, the photo guys
[0:44:03 - 0:44:05] ▶
And we had them blown up.
[0:44:06 - 0:44:07] ▶
I mean, whereby these graphs were,
[0:44:07 - 0:44:10] ▶
about as big as the,
[0:44:10 - 0:44:12] ▶
the, the corona graphs.
[0:44:12 - 0:44:14] ▶
And they were exactly,
[0:44:14 - 0:44:15] ▶
oh, absolutely details,
[0:44:15 - 0:44:17] ▶
where there was one,
[0:44:24 - 0:44:25] ▶
uh, and even color photographs,
[0:44:27 - 0:44:29] ▶
showing a blue trail coming on
[0:44:29 - 0:44:31] ▶
onto the bottom of the craft,
[0:44:31 - 0:44:33] ▶
which is probably the energy device.
[0:44:33 - 0:44:35] ▶
And we sent them all up to,
[0:44:35 - 0:44:37] ▶
and I don't know whatever happened.
[0:44:39 - 0:44:41] ▶
They were seamless, yeah.
[0:44:42 - 0:44:43] ▶
And did, uh, you know,
[0:44:45 - 0:44:46] ▶
whatever happened to these photos,
[0:44:46 - 0:44:48] ▶
or were there any videos,
[0:44:48 - 0:44:49] ▶
or was all photographs?
[0:44:49 - 0:44:50] ▶
No, all photographs.
[0:44:50 - 0:44:51] ▶
He never did any videos.
[0:44:51 - 0:44:52] ▶
Now, he didn't do a video,
[0:44:53 - 0:44:54] ▶
a video that was brought to us
[0:44:56 - 0:44:59] ▶
at the base of this guy who,
[0:44:59 - 0:45:01] ▶
lived in placidas north of,
[0:45:03 - 0:45:05] ▶
lived in a mountain,
[0:45:07 - 0:45:08] ▶
so he was retired Air Force,
[0:45:08 - 0:45:09] ▶
believed it was, it was a pilot.
[0:45:10 - 0:45:11] ▶
And he had a video camera set up,
[0:45:11 - 0:45:13] ▶
and he was watching animals.
[0:45:13 - 0:45:15] ▶
He lived in a remote area,
[0:45:15 - 0:45:17] ▶
and elk would come up to his back area,
[0:45:18 - 0:45:20] ▶
he was pretty much filming night.
[0:45:21 - 0:45:22] ▶
He was a wildlife amateur photographer,
[0:45:22 - 0:45:24] ▶
he heard a noise one out,
[0:45:28 - 0:45:29] ▶
and his craft hovering right over his back yard,
[0:45:29 - 0:45:32] ▶
and he took a video of that,
[0:45:32 - 0:45:34] ▶
28 seconds or something like that,
[0:45:36 - 0:45:38] ▶
before the craft took off.
[0:45:38 - 0:45:40] ▶
And that is the only video of a,
[0:45:40 - 0:45:43] ▶
of a legitimate video.
[0:45:43 - 0:45:44] ▶
We took the video of the camera,
[0:45:44 - 0:45:46] ▶
because you always want to analyze all this stuff,
[0:45:47 - 0:45:49] ▶
and we sent out the headquarters,
[0:45:50 - 0:45:52] ▶
they sent him a check back
[0:45:52 - 0:45:54] ▶
to pay for that camera,
[0:45:54 - 0:45:55] ▶
because everyone was going to get him that camera back,
[0:45:55 - 0:45:57] ▶
and then we're going to give him,
[0:45:57 - 0:45:58] ▶
and he won a copies of that,
[0:45:58 - 0:46:00] ▶
but he never got that back.
[0:46:00 - 0:46:02] ▶
Whatever happened to the stuff we sent up,
[0:46:03 - 0:46:05] ▶
Where did you send it to?
[0:46:06 - 0:46:07] ▶
Yeah. Air Force officer,
[0:46:10 - 0:46:11] ▶
it was at bowling Air Force Base.
[0:46:14 - 0:46:15] ▶
Headquarters of bowling.
[0:46:15 - 0:46:16] ▶
We sent it to headquarters,
[0:46:16 - 0:46:17] ▶
the counter-intelligence,
[0:46:19 - 0:46:21] ▶
they would send it over to NSA.
[0:46:23 - 0:46:25] ▶
And the only reason I know that,
[0:46:25 - 0:46:26] ▶
pretty closely in that group of,
[0:46:32 - 0:46:34] ▶
a former and retired intelligence officers.
[0:46:34 - 0:46:37] ▶
When we get together,
[0:46:37 - 0:46:39] ▶
uh, I haven't attended every single year,
[0:46:41 - 0:46:43] ▶
but out of 25 years,
[0:46:43 - 0:46:44] ▶
uh, reunions or get-togethers.
[0:46:47 - 0:46:49] ▶
they're at the same time,
[0:46:51 - 0:46:53] ▶
after or before the,
[0:46:55 - 0:46:57] ▶
well, it used to be Laughlin now,
[0:46:59 - 0:47:00] ▶
And we'd sit down and talk.
[0:47:02 - 0:47:04] ▶
We'd just sit down and talk about,
[0:47:04 - 0:47:05] ▶
and talk about what we know.
[0:47:08 - 0:47:09] ▶
that's why I learned a lot from them,
[0:47:10 - 0:47:12] ▶
because they were briefed in programs,
[0:47:12 - 0:47:13] ▶
intelligence officers was from NSA.
[0:47:19 - 0:47:20] ▶
And when I first met him,
[0:47:20 - 0:47:22] ▶
and I had never met him before,
[0:47:25 - 0:47:27] ▶
I didn't know him before,
[0:47:27 - 0:47:28] ▶
I was wanting to meet you,
[0:47:29 - 0:47:30] ▶
because you and I were on a case,
[0:47:30 - 0:47:31] ▶
I said, what do you mean,
[0:47:35 - 0:47:36] ▶
We interviewed him too.
[0:47:38 - 0:47:39] ▶
So they were investigating,
[0:47:39 - 0:47:41] ▶
and we were investigating,
[0:47:41 - 0:47:42] ▶
they were investigating.
[0:47:43 - 0:47:45] ▶
One particular night,
[0:47:45 - 0:47:47] ▶
at Paul Benowitz's house,
[0:47:47 - 0:47:48] ▶
and Jerry Miller was there,
[0:47:52 - 0:47:53] ▶
and Paul was showing us different things.
[0:47:53 - 0:47:56] ▶
And Paul came to me and he said,
[0:47:56 - 0:47:58] ▶
you see that house across the street,
[0:47:58 - 0:48:00] ▶
the front of this house?
[0:48:00 - 0:48:01] ▶
you see those lights in that upstairs window?
[0:48:03 - 0:48:05] ▶
they're not supposed to be there.
[0:48:07 - 0:48:08] ▶
That's what you mean.
[0:48:08 - 0:48:09] ▶
He said, the house is vacant.
[0:48:09 - 0:48:11] ▶
I wonder who's over there.
[0:48:15 - 0:48:16] ▶
you know, I got a gun,
[0:48:17 - 0:48:18] ▶
and I see the two vehicles parked,
[0:48:21 - 0:48:23] ▶
hidden in the back yard.
[0:48:23 - 0:48:25] ▶
One's actually in a yard.
[0:48:25 - 0:48:26] ▶
So I get the license numbers off these vehicles.
[0:48:26 - 0:48:30] ▶
you know, I didn't want to go in,
[0:48:32 - 0:48:34] ▶
maybe they're buying a house,
[0:48:35 - 0:48:37] ▶
and they come back to Rorrenel,
[0:48:41 - 0:48:43] ▶
I think it was out of Denver,
[0:48:46 - 0:48:48] ▶
and they were running on a government credit card.
[0:48:48 - 0:48:51] ▶
a week or two weeks later,
[0:48:56 - 0:48:57] ▶
we were there at the same time,
[0:48:57 - 0:48:58] ▶
and we see these lights.
[0:48:58 - 0:49:00] ▶
Well, these lights are,
[0:49:00 - 0:49:01] ▶
you can tell camera lights.
[0:49:01 - 0:49:02] ▶
The old red lights coming out,
[0:49:02 - 0:49:04] ▶
seeing that there's cameras pointed over here.
[0:49:04 - 0:49:07] ▶
I said, I'm going to get to them this time.
[0:49:07 - 0:49:09] ▶
Albuquerque Police Contacts I had,
[0:49:11 - 0:49:13] ▶
telling them what I had,
[0:49:13 - 0:49:14] ▶
and somebody come over there,
[0:49:14 - 0:49:16] ▶
and we confront these two guys,
[0:49:17 - 0:49:19] ▶
and they had to tell us
[0:49:19 - 0:49:22] ▶
that they were special agents,
[0:49:22 - 0:49:24] ▶
they rented this place.
[0:49:25 - 0:49:26] ▶
That's what all they said.
[0:49:26 - 0:49:27] ▶
they say what agents say.
[0:49:29 - 0:49:30] ▶
I didn't have much jurisdiction there,
[0:49:34 - 0:49:35] ▶
so Albuquerque Police Department had to,
[0:49:35 - 0:49:37] ▶
you know, I was just relying on them.
[0:49:37 - 0:49:39] ▶
it was confirmed that they rented a place,
[0:49:40 - 0:49:41] ▶
so I was left at that.
[0:49:41 - 0:49:42] ▶
each of them I met years later told me,
[0:49:43 - 0:49:45] ▶
he said, we investigated that one,
[0:49:45 - 0:49:46] ▶
we investigated the abduction,
[0:49:46 - 0:49:48] ▶
So NSA was intimately involved in this stuff, too.
[0:49:51 - 0:49:55] ▶
any other agencies or any of these other gentlemen
[0:49:56 - 0:49:58] ▶
We have quite a few members
[0:50:02 - 0:50:05] ▶
of our group from the CIA.
[0:50:05 - 0:50:08] ▶
they didn't do any fieldwork
[0:50:10 - 0:50:12] ▶
because the CIA couldn't do that.
[0:50:12 - 0:50:14] ▶
But they were relying on a lot of information
[0:50:14 - 0:50:16] ▶
and we were feeding them.
[0:50:16 - 0:50:17] ▶
And they were doing analytical studies
[0:50:17 - 0:50:20] ▶
and the FBI, of course,
[0:50:25 - 0:50:27] ▶
on the ebbing craft,
[0:50:38 - 0:50:40] ▶
that had been analyzed
[0:50:40 - 0:50:43] ▶
at various locations.
[0:50:43 - 0:50:45] ▶
President Reagan came to Sandia
[0:50:49 - 0:50:53] ▶
and was going to be,
[0:50:53 - 0:50:55] ▶
specifically briefed on this.
[0:50:55 - 0:50:57] ▶
And I happened to be part of the security detail.
[0:50:57 - 0:51:00] ▶
And I was in the room
[0:51:00 - 0:51:02] ▶
when they were explaining
[0:51:02 - 0:51:04] ▶
And this cylinder had,
[0:51:06 - 0:51:09] ▶
an electric microscope view of it,
[0:51:11 - 0:51:13] ▶
they figured out how to exorate
[0:51:14 - 0:51:16] ▶
or whatever they did to it.
[0:51:16 - 0:51:17] ▶
But they had cut-outs of it.
[0:51:17 - 0:51:19] ▶
And a presentation on,
[0:51:19 - 0:51:20] ▶
on the overhead projector.
[0:51:21 - 0:51:23] ▶
And they were explaining to the president
[0:51:23 - 0:51:25] ▶
what they thought these things did.
[0:51:26 - 0:51:28] ▶
and it was a multi-purpose
[0:51:29 - 0:51:31] ▶
device that was also
[0:51:35 - 0:51:38] ▶
a navigation device for them.
[0:51:38 - 0:51:41] ▶
and so that's really the only
[0:51:42 - 0:51:44] ▶
technology that I've ever
[0:51:44 - 0:51:47] ▶
learned or heard that Sandia
[0:51:47 - 0:51:49] ▶
Do you know any further
[0:51:50 - 0:51:52] ▶
extent to which President Reagan
[0:51:52 - 0:51:53] ▶
read into these various projects
[0:51:54 - 0:51:57] ▶
former intelligence group
[0:52:04 - 0:52:06] ▶
was a secret service agent.
[0:52:06 - 0:52:09] ▶
He was a secret service agent
[0:52:09 - 0:52:11] ▶
and anyone over to the CIA.
[0:52:12 - 0:52:14] ▶
that one of the most
[0:52:17 - 0:52:19] ▶
fascinating things about Reagan
[0:52:19 - 0:52:21] ▶
He didn't see it or know it,
[0:52:25 - 0:52:27] ▶
but he knew of others,
[0:52:27 - 0:52:29] ▶
a secret service agents
[0:52:29 - 0:52:30] ▶
that when he took office
[0:52:31 - 0:52:33] ▶
the 20th or whenever,
[0:52:36 - 0:52:38] ▶
of 81, he immediately
[0:52:38 - 0:52:40] ▶
asked for a briefing.
[0:52:40 - 0:52:41] ▶
you know, we still had
[0:52:43 - 0:52:45] ▶
he even addressed that issue.
[0:52:47 - 0:52:49] ▶
He says, I want to be briefed
[0:52:49 - 0:52:51] ▶
on everything we have on UFOs.
[0:52:51 - 0:52:53] ▶
He sat in an old office
[0:52:53 - 0:52:55] ▶
And they said, yes, Mr. President,
[0:52:56 - 0:52:57] ▶
he was never there when he
[0:53:00 - 0:53:01] ▶
I went to Washington
[0:53:03 - 0:53:05] ▶
to get an award for something I did,
[0:53:05 - 0:53:08] ▶
which is still somewhat classified,
[0:53:08 - 0:53:10] ▶
and I met the President.
[0:53:10 - 0:53:12] ▶
I never talked to him about this subject,
[0:53:12 - 0:53:14] ▶
but he knew something
[0:53:14 - 0:53:15] ▶
because he said to me,
[0:53:15 - 0:53:16] ▶
I know you work on some very interesting things out there.
[0:53:16 - 0:53:20] ▶
And that's all I said.
[0:53:20 - 0:53:21] ▶
I didn't have a whole lot of time.
[0:53:22 - 0:53:24] ▶
We're in an office of sure, you know,
[0:53:24 - 0:53:26] ▶
maybe two minutes or five minutes,
[0:53:26 - 0:53:28] ▶
He gave me something,
[0:53:29 - 0:53:30] ▶
and he gave me presidential cufflinks.
[0:53:30 - 0:53:32] ▶
And I knew what he was talking about.
[0:53:32 - 0:53:35] ▶
He never actually said anything,
[0:53:35 - 0:53:37] ▶
but I knew that he knew,
[0:53:37 - 0:53:39] ▶
because you recognize, you know,
[0:53:40 - 0:53:42] ▶
what I'm doing out there is being briefed all the way up.
[0:53:43 - 0:53:47] ▶
There was a UFO cover-up live
[0:53:47 - 0:53:51] ▶
that was aired in October of 1988.
[0:53:51 - 0:53:55] ▶
I don't remember what channel,
[0:53:55 - 0:53:57] ▶
but I don't remember what channel,
[0:53:57 - 0:53:58] ▶
and a year before in August of 87,
[0:54:00 - 0:54:06] ▶
myself, Dr. Kik Green,
[0:54:06 - 0:54:11] ▶
Ernie Keller Strauss,
[0:54:14 - 0:54:17] ▶
several of us in Robert Collins,
[0:54:19 - 0:54:21] ▶
went to Dayton, Ohio,
[0:54:21 - 0:54:25] ▶
and had a meeting in a room.
[0:54:25 - 0:54:27] ▶
who produced the UFO cover-up live,
[0:54:29 - 0:54:31] ▶
and he wanted an interview with Saul,
[0:54:32 - 0:54:34] ▶
and most of them said,
[0:54:34 - 0:54:37] ▶
no, I said, well, what do you want to talk about?
[0:54:37 - 0:54:39] ▶
He said, I want to talk about, you know, this UFO thing.
[0:54:39 - 0:54:42] ▶
I said, I won't do it on camera.
[0:54:42 - 0:54:45] ▶
Well, we sat down in a room,
[0:54:45 - 0:54:48] ▶
you know, in a hotel room,
[0:54:48 - 0:54:50] ▶
to do the interview.
[0:54:50 - 0:54:52] ▶
Um, he interviewed me,
[0:54:52 - 0:54:54] ▶
he gave me, he gave me,
[0:54:54 - 0:54:56] ▶
he gave me a list of questions first.
[0:54:56 - 0:54:58] ▶
And he said, you know, you have any problems,
[0:54:58 - 0:55:00] ▶
any of those questions?
[0:55:00 - 0:55:01] ▶
I said, no, I don't have any problems with it.
[0:55:01 - 0:55:03] ▶
Well, yeah, actually, there were a few that I said,
[0:55:03 - 0:55:05] ▶
I can't talk about this in this,
[0:55:05 - 0:55:07] ▶
And he's three or four.
[0:55:08 - 0:55:09] ▶
Anyways, he interviews me,
[0:55:09 - 0:55:11] ▶
there was one cameraman and him,
[0:55:11 - 0:55:13] ▶
he would turn the camera off and say,
[0:55:14 - 0:55:16] ▶
can you, can you actually elaborate more,
[0:55:16 - 0:55:19] ▶
or can, what he was trying to do
[0:55:19 - 0:55:21] ▶
was tell me what to say,
[0:55:21 - 0:55:23] ▶
and I told him right away,
[0:55:23 - 0:55:24] ▶
I'm not going to do play your games.
[0:55:24 - 0:55:26] ▶
I'm, I'm going to tell you what I know,
[0:55:26 - 0:55:28] ▶
I'm not going to tell you about anything else,
[0:55:29 - 0:55:31] ▶
I'm not going to tell you anything classified,
[0:55:31 - 0:55:33] ▶
I'm going to tell you about the curtain incident
[0:55:33 - 0:55:36] ▶
and about what I saw, but that's it.
[0:55:36 - 0:55:38] ▶
So he put me on back
[0:55:38 - 0:55:40] ▶
and maybe another five minutes,
[0:55:40 - 0:55:42] ▶
what much more than that.
[0:55:42 - 0:55:44] ▶
And he started that again,
[0:55:44 - 0:55:45] ▶
I said, you know what,
[0:55:45 - 0:55:46] ▶
and I walked down the room.
[0:55:47 - 0:55:48] ▶
Now, on the UFO live,
[0:55:48 - 0:55:51] ▶
they have somebody that they claimed to be me,
[0:55:51 - 0:55:55] ▶
and the beginning of it,
[0:55:55 - 0:55:57] ▶
the first, probably, 30 seconds,
[0:55:57 - 0:55:59] ▶
but everything else was duped in,
[0:56:03 - 0:56:06] ▶
somebody else was talking for me,
[0:56:06 - 0:56:08] ▶
and that really upset me.
[0:56:08 - 0:56:10] ▶
And of course, then they say, well,
[0:56:10 - 0:56:12] ▶
you were live, you were there live,
[0:56:12 - 0:56:14] ▶
I was going to the state police academy
[0:56:15 - 0:56:17] ▶
in Santa Fe during that time period.
[0:56:17 - 0:56:19] ▶
I started the state police academy
[0:56:19 - 0:56:21] ▶
in first of August and graduated until December.
[0:56:21 - 0:56:24] ▶
On that particular night,
[0:56:24 - 0:56:26] ▶
I was isolated inside that dormitory
[0:56:26 - 0:56:30] ▶
and not even able to watch the little owned being on it.
[0:56:30 - 0:56:35] ▶
So that was all hoax,
[0:56:35 - 0:56:37] ▶
that was all made up.
[0:56:37 - 0:56:38] ▶
And who duped for me?
[0:56:38 - 0:56:40] ▶
I think it was Robert Collins to tell you the truth,
[0:56:40 - 0:56:43] ▶
but I'm almost positive that was him.
[0:56:43 - 0:56:46] ▶
Robert Collins and I are not friends at all.
[0:56:48 - 0:56:50] ▶
Absolutely not friends.
[0:56:50 - 0:56:52] ▶
He published the book in 2006
[0:56:52 - 0:56:54] ▶
that I had absolutely no input into that book.
[0:56:55 - 0:56:57] ▶
So people who say, well,
[0:56:57 - 0:57:00] ▶
I didn't write any book.
[0:57:01 - 0:57:02] ▶
I gave him information to put it in the book.
[0:57:02 - 0:57:05] ▶
About 20% of what I gave him went into the book,
[0:57:05 - 0:57:09] ▶
and the rest of it never went into the book.
[0:57:09 - 0:57:12] ▶
And that book right now,
[0:57:12 - 0:57:14] ▶
I can see, I swear to it,
[0:57:14 - 0:57:17] ▶
there's probably about 20% that are factual in that book.
[0:57:17 - 0:57:22] ▶
And there's probably 40 or 50% of speculation,
[0:57:22 - 0:57:25] ▶
and then the rest of it is absolutely allies, their hoaxes.
[0:57:25 - 0:57:29] ▶
I spent a number of assignments to Nevada,
[0:57:29 - 0:57:37] ▶
and I know that they were reverse engineering.
[0:57:37 - 0:57:40] ▶
I was never actually briefed on it,
[0:57:40 - 0:57:42] ▶
but common sense can tell me that this craft over here
[0:57:42 - 0:57:46] ▶
isn't something we made,
[0:57:46 - 0:57:47] ▶
or it's based on something they designed.
[0:57:47 - 0:57:51] ▶
The only exception of that is a cash land room incident in 1980.
[0:57:51 - 0:57:55] ▶
I know for a fact, I was involved in that.
[0:57:55 - 0:57:58] ▶
I know for a fact that that craft was piloted by Air Force pilots.
[0:57:58 - 0:58:04] ▶
It was based on an extraterrestrial craft that we'd had,
[0:58:04 - 0:58:08] ▶
and it was reverse engineered,
[0:58:08 - 0:58:10] ▶
but the propulsion system failed,
[0:58:10 - 0:58:14] ▶
as a malfunction in some manner,
[0:58:14 - 0:58:17] ▶
spurring out radioactivity.
[0:58:17 - 0:58:21] ▶
And I know that for a fact,
[0:58:21 - 0:58:24] ▶
but that's the only reverse engineering.
[0:58:24 - 0:58:27] ▶
Other than the cylinder that at Sandia,
[0:58:27 - 0:58:32] ▶
I understand that that was reversed engineered
[0:58:32 - 0:58:35] ▶
I was at the Nevada Test Site,
[0:58:39 - 0:58:41] ▶
which is now the National Security,
[0:58:41 - 0:58:43] ▶
what you call Area 51,
[0:58:45 - 0:58:47] ▶
which was at that time,
[0:58:47 - 0:58:49] ▶
Det3 Test Center, it's Area 51,
[0:58:49 - 0:58:51] ▶
but when I was out there in the 80s,
[0:58:51 - 0:58:54] ▶
it was called Det3 Test Center out of Edwards.
[0:58:54 - 0:58:56] ▶
There was a detachment of a test personnel
[0:58:56 - 0:58:59] ▶
from Edwards Air Force Base assigned to Area 51,
[0:58:59 - 0:59:03] ▶
and Area 51 is just a plot on the map
[0:59:03 - 0:59:08] ▶
based on Nevada Test Site,
[0:59:08 - 0:59:10] ▶
all the different areas within that.
[0:59:10 - 0:59:12] ▶
So whatever you call it,
[0:59:12 - 0:59:14] ▶
it's a groom-like complex.
[0:59:14 - 0:59:16] ▶
Actually, there's two different locations out there.
[0:59:16 - 0:59:18] ▶
There's the test site,
[0:59:18 - 0:59:20] ▶
and there's the Det3 site,
[0:59:20 - 0:59:22] ▶
and then there's groom-like.
[0:59:22 - 0:59:24] ▶
That's two different sites.
[0:59:24 - 0:59:26] ▶
People are sometimes confusing it,
[0:59:26 - 0:59:28] ▶
think it is the same.
[0:59:28 - 0:59:30] ▶
And then Papus is an auxiliary site
[0:59:30 - 0:59:32] ▶
that actually has the underground entrance.
[0:59:32 - 0:59:34] ▶
I spent nine months out there as a common intelligence officer.
[0:59:38 - 0:59:42] ▶
we would shoot a laser up
[0:59:50 - 0:59:52] ▶
and blind the Soviet satellites
[0:59:52 - 0:59:54] ▶
blind their cameras,
[0:59:56 - 0:59:58] ▶
so they couldn't photograph anything.
[0:59:58 - 1:00:00] ▶
And not only did we blind the Russians,
[1:00:00 - 1:00:02] ▶
we would blind anybody else's satellites
[1:00:02 - 1:00:04] ▶
that would come over.
[1:00:04 - 1:00:05] ▶
So it was very difficult to get actually photographs,
[1:00:05 - 1:00:07] ▶
but during that time period,
[1:00:07 - 1:00:09] ▶
And now, I don't know that they have that
[1:00:11 - 1:00:13] ▶
I've been a go out for a long time.
[1:00:15 - 1:00:17] ▶
And there's two different types of sites.
[1:00:27 - 1:00:29] ▶
Did you see any man-made
[1:00:29 - 1:00:31] ▶
sort of based on reverse engineered objects?
[1:00:31 - 1:00:33] ▶
what might be called
[1:00:37 - 1:00:39] ▶
electromagnetic-verbedics
[1:00:39 - 1:00:41] ▶
or antigravity sites?
[1:00:41 - 1:00:43] ▶
I don't really actually told me it was an anti-gravity craft,
[1:00:45 - 1:00:49] ▶
but the way it was operating
[1:00:49 - 1:00:51] ▶
in a way it could lift up by itself,
[1:00:51 - 1:00:55] ▶
we watched it, it had to be.
[1:00:55 - 1:00:57] ▶
I don't know what else.
[1:00:57 - 1:00:59] ▶
I'm not a technical guy,
[1:00:59 - 1:01:01] ▶
but I think I could look at it
[1:01:01 - 1:01:03] ▶
and just common sense tells me
[1:01:03 - 1:01:05] ▶
this thing was anti-gravity.
[1:01:05 - 1:01:07] ▶
But I think the craft,
[1:01:07 - 1:01:09] ▶
that craft was an actually alien craft.
[1:01:09 - 1:01:11] ▶
I don't think that was a reverse engineered.
[1:01:11 - 1:01:13] ▶
There's two different complexes out there.
[1:01:13 - 1:01:15] ▶
There's one that I believe
[1:01:15 - 1:01:17] ▶
Lazar was talking about
[1:01:17 - 1:01:19] ▶
with the alien crafts.
[1:01:19 - 1:01:21] ▶
And then there's an entirely different area
[1:01:21 - 1:01:23] ▶
for the reverse engineering craft.
[1:01:23 - 1:01:25] ▶
They're not together at all.
[1:01:25 - 1:01:27] ▶
They're not in the same hangar.
[1:01:27 - 1:01:29] ▶
They're in a different locations.
[1:01:29 - 1:01:31] ▶
The underground crafts,
[1:01:31 - 1:01:33] ▶
the underground facility,
[1:01:33 - 1:01:35] ▶
housed the extraterrestrial crafts,
[1:01:35 - 1:01:37] ▶
the above-ground facilities,
[1:01:37 - 1:01:39] ▶
and the far end of the complex house
[1:01:39 - 1:01:43] ▶
that reversed engineered aircraft.
[1:01:43 - 1:01:45] ▶
They had the bodies of all sorts of different types of crafts
[1:01:45 - 1:01:48] ▶
that they were manufacturing or testing
[1:01:48 - 1:01:51] ▶
that he put together and tried to fly it,
[1:01:51 - 1:01:53] ▶
had a lot of crashes out there,
[1:01:53 - 1:01:55] ▶
a lot of these things didn't work,
[1:01:55 - 1:01:57] ▶
But I know I read a book
[1:01:58 - 1:02:00] ▶
where it says everything was in one hangar
[1:02:00 - 1:02:02] ▶
and that's not true.
[1:02:02 - 1:02:04] ▶
They're all separated.
[1:02:04 - 1:02:06] ▶
And they had different people.
[1:02:06 - 1:02:08] ▶
It was compartmented.
[1:02:08 - 1:02:10] ▶
They had people over here
[1:02:10 - 1:02:12] ▶
dealing with those extraterrestrial crafts
[1:02:12 - 1:02:14] ▶
and they had people over there
[1:02:14 - 1:02:16] ▶
that were dealing with the reverse and engineering craft.
[1:02:16 - 1:02:18] ▶
the information came
[1:02:20 - 1:02:22] ▶
through a third party,
[1:02:22 - 1:02:24] ▶
a bunch of people scientists here
[1:02:24 - 1:02:26] ▶
who would feed it out to there.
[1:02:26 - 1:02:27] ▶
Those people didn't have access to there.
[1:02:27 - 1:02:29] ▶
Them, and they didn't have access to the other one.
[1:02:29 - 1:02:31] ▶
Were did you ever see any of the ET craft
[1:02:31 - 1:02:35] ▶
when you were there in the underground?
[1:02:35 - 1:02:37] ▶
I saw, too, the one that
[1:02:39 - 1:02:41] ▶
defied gravity, which I
[1:02:41 - 1:02:43] ▶
no one ever told me was it?
[1:02:43 - 1:02:45] ▶
It was an oval shape.
[1:02:45 - 1:02:47] ▶
legs, or landing gear that we had put on it,
[1:02:57 - 1:03:01] ▶
because they didn't fit
[1:03:01 - 1:03:05] ▶
the structure of that craft.
[1:03:05 - 1:03:07] ▶
port holes that were almost fluid-like.
[1:03:11 - 1:03:15] ▶
You look at it and look like you're looking through water
[1:03:15 - 1:03:17] ▶
if you know what I'm talking about.
[1:03:17 - 1:03:19] ▶
And I never saw the inside of it.
[1:03:19 - 1:03:23] ▶
But I really saw the outside.
[1:03:23 - 1:03:25] ▶
And I saw another craft, a huge craft
[1:03:25 - 1:03:27] ▶
that was in the Pampus,
[1:03:27 - 1:03:29] ▶
When you first go down into it,
[1:03:31 - 1:03:33] ▶
the first bay area on the right-hand side,
[1:03:33 - 1:03:37] ▶
huge craft, probably 100 foot by,
[1:03:37 - 1:03:39] ▶
I was never told what that was,
[1:03:41 - 1:03:43] ▶
but it looks like an older craft
[1:03:43 - 1:03:45] ▶
and because there was damage on it.
[1:03:47 - 1:03:49] ▶
But the skin of it and everything looked
[1:03:49 - 1:03:51] ▶
It didn't look like something we would build.
[1:03:53 - 1:03:55] ▶
That was the only ones that I could.
[1:03:55 - 1:03:57] ▶
Were there any living or deceased ET's?
[1:03:57 - 1:03:59] ▶
I saw supposedly a closed-circuit camera.
[1:04:01 - 1:04:05] ▶
I was sitting in a building
[1:04:05 - 1:04:07] ▶
and it was a closed-circuit camera,
[1:04:07 - 1:04:09] ▶
filming one in another facility.
[1:04:09 - 1:04:13] ▶
But I never actually saw one face-to-face.
[1:04:13 - 1:04:17] ▶
eSystems, Johnson Systems,
[1:04:19 - 1:04:23] ▶
San Diego, Livermore,
[1:04:23 - 1:04:25] ▶
Tectronics was out there.
[1:04:27 - 1:04:31] ▶
Moderola had a huge facility
[1:04:35 - 1:04:39] ▶
where they were trying to
[1:04:39 - 1:04:41] ▶
check on their communications,
[1:04:41 - 1:04:43] ▶
how their communications worked.
[1:04:43 - 1:04:45] ▶
Yeah, ET communications worked.
[1:04:47 - 1:04:49] ▶
Those were the ones I can remember.
[1:04:49 - 1:04:51] ▶
Yeah, in GG, ran a place in.
[1:04:51 - 1:04:53] ▶
was the security chief for EG&G.
[1:04:57 - 1:05:01] ▶
And he always caused himself
[1:05:01 - 1:05:03] ▶
the security officer for
[1:05:03 - 1:05:05] ▶
but he wasn't the security officer.
[1:05:05 - 1:05:07] ▶
I always let him say that,
[1:05:07 - 1:05:09] ▶
but he wasn't really a security officer.
[1:05:09 - 1:05:11] ▶
But he was there or security officer.
[1:05:11 - 1:05:13] ▶
And he was briefed into a lot of things.
[1:05:13 - 1:05:15] ▶
I don't know if you know Paul McGovern,
[1:05:19 - 1:05:21] ▶
but Paul McGovern was the
[1:05:21 - 1:05:23] ▶
site security chief for Area 51.
[1:05:23 - 1:05:27] ▶
He was there the whole time.
[1:05:35 - 1:05:37] ▶
This is in Washington.
[1:05:39 - 1:05:41] ▶
I think I gave his name to,
[1:05:41 - 1:05:43] ▶
like somebody I gave their name to try to
[1:05:43 - 1:05:45] ▶
I was at Wright Pat for a briefing
[1:05:51 - 1:05:53] ▶
on something entirely different.
[1:05:53 - 1:05:55] ▶
But while I was there,
[1:05:55 - 1:05:57] ▶
I asked to be briefed on
[1:05:57 - 1:05:59] ▶
something that was related to this.
[1:05:59 - 1:06:03] ▶
And I was taken over to a facility
[1:06:03 - 1:06:05] ▶
at Underground Facility.
[1:06:05 - 1:06:07] ▶
It had walked down steps at ramp
[1:06:07 - 1:06:09] ▶
and a huge underground facility.
[1:06:09 - 1:06:11] ▶
Although I didn't actually see it.
[1:06:11 - 1:06:13] ▶
not by Collins, but by another person,
[1:06:15 - 1:06:17] ▶
Ernie Keller Strauss,
[1:06:17 - 1:06:19] ▶
that they had alien bodies down there.
[1:06:19 - 1:06:21] ▶
No, I never saw them when I was there.
[1:06:21 - 1:06:23] ▶
And I was only there once
[1:06:23 - 1:06:25] ▶
at Wright Pat, down in that facility.
[1:06:25 - 1:06:27] ▶
So what Collins talked about those tunnel complexes,
[1:06:27 - 1:06:31] ▶
they probably are real.
[1:06:31 - 1:06:33] ▶
I mean, they probably had tunnels down there.
[1:06:33 - 1:06:35] ▶
And I was told that.
[1:06:35 - 1:06:37] ▶
In fact, I read something
[1:06:37 - 1:06:39] ▶
in a classified manual once,
[1:06:39 - 1:06:41] ▶
a few years later, about them.
[1:06:41 - 1:06:43] ▶
They had Wright Pat.
[1:06:43 - 1:06:45] ▶
Yeah, underground facility.
[1:06:45 - 1:06:47] ▶
You go in, Pat Pous.
[1:06:47 - 1:06:49] ▶
You go down the ramp.
[1:06:49 - 1:06:51] ▶
no, I actually like a horseshoe.
[1:06:53 - 1:06:55] ▶
And there's branches
[1:06:55 - 1:06:59] ▶
off each one of those certain areas.
[1:06:59 - 1:07:01] ▶
It goes all the way around
[1:07:01 - 1:07:03] ▶
It goes all the way around
[1:07:05 - 1:07:07] ▶
to the main contoman area
[1:07:07 - 1:07:09] ▶
And it comes out on the
[1:07:11 - 1:07:13] ▶
southeast corner of the
[1:07:13 - 1:07:15] ▶
southwest corner of Area 51,
[1:07:15 - 1:07:19] ▶
It comes out of there.
[1:07:21 - 1:07:23] ▶
And there's compartmented shafts
[1:07:27 - 1:07:31] ▶
that if you don't have the right
[1:07:31 - 1:07:33] ▶
you can't, and you're all exchange badge systems,
[1:07:35 - 1:07:37] ▶
that you can't get in this,
[1:07:37 - 1:07:39] ▶
some of these, you're only get in a certain one.
[1:07:39 - 1:07:41] ▶
It's like I was saying before,
[1:07:41 - 1:07:43] ▶
if you're working on the alien craft,
[1:07:43 - 1:07:45] ▶
you're not going to be able to work,
[1:07:45 - 1:07:47] ▶
you're not going to be working on the other craft.
[1:07:47 - 1:07:49] ▶
Yeah, the man made craft.
[1:07:51 - 1:07:53] ▶
Have you been exposed,
[1:07:53 - 1:07:55] ▶
or did you come across in your career
[1:07:55 - 1:07:57] ▶
and the day of the season,
[1:08:01 - 1:08:03] ▶
and warnings projects,
[1:08:03 - 1:08:05] ▶
And what did you find out about those?
[1:08:09 - 1:08:11] ▶
I don't think I should talk about that.
[1:08:15 - 1:08:17] ▶
I mean, that's where I, when I grieved
[1:08:17 - 1:08:19] ▶
ahead of the defense intelligence agency,
[1:08:19 - 1:08:21] ▶
that was the main subject.
[1:08:21 - 1:08:23] ▶
That is, yeah, that's very sensitive.
[1:08:23 - 1:08:25] ▶
Yeah, it's very sensitive.
[1:08:25 - 1:08:27] ▶
So, we'll just pass that question on.
[1:08:29 - 1:08:31] ▶
That's that perfectly fine.
[1:08:33 - 1:08:35] ▶
The Soviets were just,
[1:08:35 - 1:08:37] ▶
as curious about the phenomena as we were,
[1:08:37 - 1:08:41] ▶
and that one of the,
[1:08:41 - 1:08:43] ▶
we call them essential elements of information,
[1:08:45 - 1:08:49] ▶
which you ask us by,
[1:08:49 - 1:08:51] ▶
some things that the government says,
[1:08:51 - 1:08:53] ▶
you have to ask these spies
[1:08:53 - 1:08:55] ▶
to get this information.
[1:08:55 - 1:08:57] ▶
One of the first things that the Soviets will,
[1:08:57 - 1:08:59] ▶
if, if, I'm trying to recruit you,
[1:08:59 - 1:09:01] ▶
and you're in the Air Force and the military,
[1:09:01 - 1:09:03] ▶
is what does the government know about UFOs?
[1:09:03 - 1:09:05] ▶
And that's something that's fascinating.
[1:09:11 - 1:09:13] ▶
And so, when we recruit a Russian,
[1:09:13 - 1:09:15] ▶
we ask them the same thing,
[1:09:15 - 1:09:17] ▶
and then they tell us, oh, yeah, KGB knows this.
[1:09:17 - 1:09:19] ▶
And so, that's something that,
[1:09:19 - 1:09:21] ▶
is, was fascinating to me,
[1:09:21 - 1:09:25] ▶
that the Russians were just as interested as we were.
[1:09:25 - 1:09:28] ▶
And probably, just as involved.
[1:09:28 - 1:09:31] ▶
I was involved with the Germans
[1:09:31 - 1:09:35] ▶
on the subject, when I was stationed in Germany,
[1:09:35 - 1:09:39] ▶
the German equivalent to CIA,
[1:09:41 - 1:09:45] ▶
a Buddhist non-questionist,
[1:09:47 - 1:09:49] ▶
is what the column is German.
[1:09:49 - 1:09:51] ▶
But only one particular incident that happened
[1:09:51 - 1:09:54] ▶
in around a nuclear weapon storage area
[1:09:54 - 1:10:00] ▶
where something entered it, cut off fence,
[1:10:00 - 1:10:04] ▶
got in, didn't actually get into a bunker.
[1:10:04 - 1:10:08] ▶
And that's something that we briefed.
[1:10:08 - 1:10:12] ▶
But we could never, we could never connect it,
[1:10:12 - 1:10:14] ▶
although there was a sighting of a UFO over it.
[1:10:14 - 1:10:17] ▶
But we could never connect them.
[1:10:17 - 1:10:19] ▶
That was the only interface I had with Germans.
[1:10:19 - 1:10:23] ▶
Well, I think the most convincing case
[1:10:23 - 1:10:27] ▶
that I've ever even been involved with
[1:10:27 - 1:10:30] ▶
has never ever been made public.
[1:10:30 - 1:10:32] ▶
And that was the incident up in Utah some years ago.
[1:10:32 - 1:10:36] ▶
There was a, there was a guy that lived in a remote trail
[1:10:36 - 1:10:40] ▶
or just outside, dug-way, proving grounds.
[1:10:40 - 1:10:43] ▶
And he was a photographer, he'd worked as a,
[1:10:43 - 1:10:46] ▶
he was in the army as a photographer,
[1:10:46 - 1:10:49] ▶
and he retired from the army,
[1:10:49 - 1:10:51] ▶
and he went to work for, no, I'm sorry,
[1:10:51 - 1:10:54] ▶
he didn't retire from the army.
[1:10:54 - 1:10:56] ▶
He just got out of the army,
[1:10:56 - 1:10:57] ▶
and he went and worked for dug-way proving grounds
[1:10:57 - 1:10:59] ▶
He was never married, he was an orphan.
[1:11:01 - 1:11:04] ▶
He lived by himself in this single wide,
[1:11:04 - 1:11:08] ▶
probably 14 foot by 80 foot trailer.
[1:11:08 - 1:11:12] ▶
He had built some sheds and stuff around it.
[1:11:12 - 1:11:16] ▶
OSI at Hill Air Force Base called me and said,
[1:11:17 - 1:11:22] ▶
that lives in this remote area up by dug-way
[1:11:25 - 1:11:27] ▶
that sent us all these photographs of UFOs.
[1:11:27 - 1:11:32] ▶
He said, and we don't really have anybody up here
[1:11:32 - 1:11:34] ▶
that's, and this is like 84,
[1:11:34 - 1:11:36] ▶
a lot of part 84, first part 85.
[1:11:36 - 1:11:40] ▶
We don't have anybody up here
[1:11:40 - 1:11:41] ▶
that can really, you know,
[1:11:41 - 1:11:43] ▶
talk to this guy intelligently,
[1:11:43 - 1:11:44] ▶
could you come up here?
[1:11:44 - 1:11:45] ▶
Because they didn't have a 9Q,
[1:11:45 - 1:11:47] ▶
a 9Q is a OSI designation for somebody
[1:11:47 - 1:11:50] ▶
that investigated these things.
[1:11:50 - 1:11:53] ▶
I talked to my boss,
[1:11:55 - 1:11:56] ▶
he said, I'd go up there,
[1:11:56 - 1:11:57] ▶
or whatever you want to do,
[1:11:57 - 1:11:58] ▶
I went up there, flew up.
[1:11:58 - 1:11:59] ▶
We went out and visited this guy.
[1:11:59 - 1:12:01] ▶
This guy was not a very intelligent person,
[1:12:01 - 1:12:03] ▶
he had a lot of common sense,
[1:12:03 - 1:12:04] ▶
but not well educated.
[1:12:04 - 1:12:06] ▶
He only went to eighth or ninth grade,
[1:12:06 - 1:12:08] ▶
but there wasn't anything he didn't know
[1:12:08 - 1:12:10] ▶
about cameras to take pictures.
[1:12:10 - 1:12:12] ▶
He learned this all on his own.
[1:12:12 - 1:12:14] ▶
I mean, they aren't me taught him,
[1:12:14 - 1:12:15] ▶
but then he, for years,
[1:12:15 - 1:12:17] ▶
a dug-way, he took pictures of things out there.
[1:12:17 - 1:12:21] ▶
of all these photographs,
[1:12:24 - 1:12:26] ▶
where did you get these things from?
[1:12:30 - 1:12:31] ▶
He said, they've landed out here.
[1:12:31 - 1:12:34] ▶
He said, they've landed out here?
[1:12:34 - 1:12:36] ▶
oh, they left a long time ago,
[1:12:37 - 1:12:39] ▶
but they landed, they come here and landed for years.
[1:12:39 - 1:12:42] ▶
So I asked him to tell me the story.
[1:12:42 - 1:12:45] ▶
And he tells me that in 68,
[1:12:45 - 1:12:51] ▶
the latter part of 68,
[1:12:51 - 1:12:53] ▶
he came home from work,
[1:12:53 - 1:12:55] ▶
he goes in, makes his meal,
[1:12:57 - 1:13:00] ▶
and not suddenly hears some noises.
[1:13:00 - 1:13:02] ▶
He has a cat that ran around crazy,
[1:13:02 - 1:13:06] ▶
and he goes outside and he sees his craft
[1:13:06 - 1:13:08] ▶
landing in his backyard.
[1:13:08 - 1:13:10] ▶
And he went in, got his camera,
[1:13:10 - 1:13:12] ▶
of course, being a photographer,
[1:13:12 - 1:13:13] ▶
went out and took pictures.
[1:13:13 - 1:13:14] ▶
And creatures came out,
[1:13:14 - 1:13:16] ▶
and he took pictures of the creatures,
[1:13:16 - 1:13:18] ▶
and he has these pictures there.
[1:13:18 - 1:13:20] ▶
They looked exactly like the ebans.
[1:13:20 - 1:13:22] ▶
I mean, they never talked to him,
[1:13:24 - 1:13:26] ▶
but he said, well, they didn't talk to me with words,
[1:13:26 - 1:13:29] ▶
but they talked to me in my head.
[1:13:29 - 1:13:31] ▶
He said, I could understand then
[1:13:31 - 1:13:33] ▶
that they were having problems understanding me.
[1:13:33 - 1:13:36] ▶
And he gave him all these gifts
[1:13:36 - 1:13:39] ▶
And at first, I thought this was a setup.
[1:13:41 - 1:13:43] ▶
Honestly, God, when I got there, I thought,
[1:13:43 - 1:13:45] ▶
this is too real to be it.
[1:13:45 - 1:13:47] ▶
the OSI agent from Hill,
[1:13:50 - 1:13:52] ▶
I said, is this a setup or something
[1:13:52 - 1:13:54] ▶
or this guy had movie props?
[1:13:54 - 1:13:56] ▶
He said, why are you saying that?
[1:13:57 - 1:13:59] ▶
I said, because it looks too real to be real.
[1:13:59 - 1:14:03] ▶
He said, no, I don't know.
[1:14:03 - 1:14:04] ▶
He said, we never been out here.
[1:14:04 - 1:14:06] ▶
So he showed us everything.
[1:14:07 - 1:14:09] ▶
And the contact lasted from about the late 60s
[1:14:09 - 1:14:15] ▶
until about 75 or 76.
[1:14:15 - 1:14:18] ▶
And then they told him they were leaving
[1:14:18 - 1:14:20] ▶
and they gave him these gifts.
[1:14:20 - 1:14:22] ▶
And they're star shaped.
[1:14:22 - 1:14:24] ▶
There's some of them that were like bronze statues
[1:14:24 - 1:14:28] ▶
and little models of things.
[1:14:28 - 1:14:32] ▶
And he said, they gave me these are gifts they gave to me.
[1:14:32 - 1:14:35] ▶
I said, one of the questions I had,
[1:14:35 - 1:14:37] ▶
why are you telling us now?
[1:14:37 - 1:14:39] ▶
After all these years,
[1:14:39 - 1:14:41] ▶
seven years or eight years, whatever it was,
[1:14:41 - 1:14:44] ▶
why are you telling us now?
[1:14:44 - 1:14:45] ▶
This guy was a chain smoke.
[1:14:46 - 1:14:48] ▶
I bet you he smoked five packs of cigarette today.
[1:14:48 - 1:14:50] ▶
In an interview, he probably went through a carton.
[1:14:50 - 1:14:53] ▶
And he said, I'm dying.
[1:14:53 - 1:14:55] ▶
He said, I'm not going to live for another six months.
[1:14:55 - 1:14:58] ▶
But I got to do something with all this stuff.
[1:14:58 - 1:15:01] ▶
He said, and I figured that you might as well have it.
[1:15:01 - 1:15:04] ▶
So we sent the flag up and then we got truckloads of people
[1:15:04 - 1:15:10] ▶
coming down, NSA, CIA, to review all this stuff.
[1:15:10 - 1:15:17] ▶
We actually had a contract at a company
[1:15:17 - 1:15:21] ▶
to come down with a moving van to move all this stuff,
[1:15:21 - 1:15:24] ▶
package it in a unique manner,
[1:15:24 - 1:15:28] ▶
because they don't know if this stuff
[1:15:28 - 1:15:30] ▶
is setting off a signal or I never thought of that
[1:15:30 - 1:15:35] ▶
until one of the technical people up in Santa Fe
[1:15:35 - 1:15:39] ▶
or up the headquarters said in Washington said,
[1:15:39 - 1:15:42] ▶
These things might be bugged or something or radioactive or...
[1:15:44 - 1:15:47] ▶
So they, anyway, they took all of the headquarters
[1:15:47 - 1:15:50] ▶
How many audits were there?
[1:15:51 - 1:15:53] ▶
Oh gosh, there are probably two dozen.
[1:15:53 - 1:15:56] ▶
I don't know exactly, probably at least two dozen.
[1:15:56 - 1:15:59] ▶
Some of them were just objects that they were made of.
[1:15:59 - 1:16:03] ▶
I don't know what material, but you couldn't really figure out
[1:16:03 - 1:16:08] ▶
I mean, obviously, they met something to the ebans
[1:16:09 - 1:16:12] ▶
because they gave them to him and thinking that it was
[1:16:12 - 1:16:16] ▶
something meaningful.
[1:16:16 - 1:16:18] ▶
So they packaged all that stuff.
[1:16:18 - 1:16:21] ▶
I took the headquarters and I never heard more anything about it.
[1:16:21 - 1:16:24] ▶
And I've never read or seen anything on the internet
[1:16:24 - 1:16:28] ▶
Now, I think George Napp has.
[1:16:30 - 1:16:32] ▶
I think somebody mentioned that the George Napp some years ago.
[1:16:32 - 1:16:35] ▶
Art Bell sent me a letter once, some time ago.
[1:16:35 - 1:16:40] ▶
I'm not a letter, I'm sorry, an email.
[1:16:40 - 1:16:42] ▶
And he asked me about the Utah case.
[1:16:42 - 1:16:45] ▶
And I'm not sure what I'm sending back.
[1:16:45 - 1:16:48] ▶
I'm saying, which Utah case?
[1:16:48 - 1:16:50] ▶
And he never responded to me.
[1:16:50 - 1:16:52] ▶
Do you know if this gentleman's name?
[1:16:53 - 1:16:56] ▶
His first name was James.
[1:16:56 - 1:17:01] ▶
He had a very funny last name.
[1:17:01 - 1:17:04] ▶
It's like a Polish name.
[1:17:04 - 1:17:06] ▶
So Dasky or Zodorsky or something like that.
[1:17:06 - 1:17:09] ▶
He was a Polish origin.
[1:17:09 - 1:17:12] ▶
But he was originally from...
[1:17:15 - 1:17:19] ▶
He grew up in an orphanage in Northern California.
[1:17:19 - 1:17:24] ▶
But his mother and father came to the west from the immigrated,
[1:17:24 - 1:17:32] ▶
pulled into the United States and then they went west to California.
[1:17:32 - 1:17:36] ▶
And somehow they died.
[1:17:36 - 1:17:38] ▶
And he was three or four years old when I don't remember how old he was.
[1:17:38 - 1:17:42] ▶
Do you recall what these objects looked like?
[1:17:42 - 1:17:44] ▶
I mean, just a few of them.
[1:17:44 - 1:17:46] ▶
Some of them were shaped like a heart, a bronze heart,
[1:17:46 - 1:17:50] ▶
with some calligraphy inside of it.
[1:17:50 - 1:17:56] ▶
And some of them were just statues of...
[1:17:56 - 1:18:00] ▶
Almost like ceramics statues of something, maybe a god or something.
[1:18:00 - 1:18:05] ▶
You couldn't really explain.
[1:18:05 - 1:18:07] ▶
Some of them were this big, some of them were real big.
[1:18:08 - 1:18:11] ▶
And there was another one that he had was a wreath, like almost like a wreath.
[1:18:11 - 1:18:17] ▶
And there were different symbols around this wreath.
[1:18:18 - 1:18:22] ▶
And in the back of it, they had these appendages that came out,
[1:18:22 - 1:18:26] ▶
maybe to put it on a stand or something.
[1:18:26 - 1:18:30] ▶
I could never figure it out.
[1:18:30 - 1:18:32] ▶
And I already saw them when the two times, one time,
[1:18:33 - 1:18:36] ▶
that he showed them all to us.
[1:18:36 - 1:18:37] ▶
And then when we came back, the package, everything out.
[1:18:37 - 1:18:40] ▶
CIA or DIA or some place.
[1:18:43 - 1:18:46] ▶
I'm sure they've been analyzed.
[1:18:47 - 1:18:49] ▶
We're the photographs daytime of the craft.
[1:18:49 - 1:18:53] ▶
All of them were daytime that I can remember.
[1:18:53 - 1:18:56] ▶
And they were as clear as you can ever...
[1:18:56 - 1:19:00] ▶
He took pictures inside the craft.
[1:19:00 - 1:19:03] ▶
These were pictures in the inside of the craft.
[1:19:03 - 1:19:05] ▶
They showed instrument panels, showed a screen, a huge screen,
[1:19:06 - 1:19:13] ▶
maybe the universe or star charts or navigational charts
[1:19:13 - 1:19:19] ▶
or something and all that.
[1:19:19 - 1:19:21] ▶
We were leaving the first time when he said,
[1:19:25 - 1:19:29] ▶
oh, I forgot to show you this.
[1:19:29 - 1:19:31] ▶
And he went into a chest he had.
[1:19:31 - 1:19:36] ▶
And his house was horribly maintained.
[1:19:36 - 1:19:40] ▶
And he finds this...
[1:19:40 - 1:19:43] ▶
It's hard to explain it.
[1:19:45 - 1:19:46] ▶
It's like a laminated paper
[1:19:46 - 1:19:54] ▶
that has these lines through it.
[1:19:54 - 1:19:57] ▶
And he said, oh, this is where they came from.
[1:20:00 - 1:20:04] ▶
Well, there's no references on it.
[1:20:04 - 1:20:06] ▶
You know, where is this?
[1:20:07 - 1:20:10] ▶
He said, but this is a chart that gave me.
[1:20:11 - 1:20:13] ▶
And that's the only thing that we actually took back that day with us.
[1:20:13 - 1:20:18] ▶
And then of course came back later and get everything.
[1:20:18 - 1:20:21] ▶
And I don't know what they ever figured out.
[1:20:21 - 1:20:23] ▶
They don't ever tell us much after that.
[1:20:23 - 1:20:27] ▶
Yeah, it goes up and never comes down.
[1:20:28 - 1:20:30] ▶
Did you ever hear where...
[1:20:30 - 1:20:32] ▶
I mean, there's all the UFO lore which I discount.
[1:20:32 - 1:20:34] ▶
But where some of these ET species were from what star systems?
[1:20:35 - 1:20:41] ▶
The only one that I know for a fact that I read later was rated reticuli.
[1:20:41 - 1:20:47] ▶
I'd be Zeta reticuli.
[1:20:48 - 1:20:51] ▶
There was a species first.
[1:20:51 - 1:20:54] ▶
And that was even...
[1:20:54 - 1:20:55] ▶
That was a superficial source.
[1:20:55 - 1:20:56] ▶
Yeah, that was from official source.
[1:20:56 - 1:20:57] ▶
Now, there's a lot of...
[1:20:57 - 1:21:00] ▶
People in our retirement group, a lot of speculation on different star systems and close
[1:21:00 - 1:21:08] ▶
star systems and things.
[1:21:08 - 1:21:10] ▶
But officially, that's the only one I know.
[1:21:10 - 1:21:13] ▶
Have you heard of any...
[1:21:13 - 1:21:15] ▶
The projects that deal with ET simulations?
[1:21:15 - 1:21:24] ▶
What I'm referring to here, there have been some contact events.
[1:21:25 - 1:21:29] ▶
When you're referring to, I have sources, was actually not ET.
[1:21:29 - 1:21:34] ▶
If you will, a stage event by military or special operations.
[1:21:40 - 1:21:47] ▶
To look ET because this woman had seen something classified.
[1:21:47 - 1:21:52] ▶
Have you heard of those sort of operations?
[1:21:53 - 1:21:56] ▶
If we're falsifying W.
[1:22:02 - 1:22:04] ▶
There was a special group out of the 7602nd Irrenta Wing at Fort Belvier War that came out and did that.
[1:22:11 - 1:22:20] ▶
They had these people that had maybe some sort of defects,
[1:22:20 - 1:22:27] ▶
an autonomic defects that were brought in to a full people and thinking they're aliens.
[1:22:27 - 1:22:35] ▶
I can't give you any specifics because the program is still classified.
[1:22:36 - 1:22:41] ▶
They probably still doing it.
[1:22:41 - 1:22:43] ▶
I wouldn't doubt it.
[1:22:43 - 1:22:45] ▶
They were still doing it.
[1:22:45 - 1:22:47] ▶
There was a special, a highly classified operation that occurred in Tacoma, a Washington.
[1:22:50 - 1:22:59] ▶
I'm saying maybe 86 or 87, that was exactly...
[1:22:59 - 1:23:04] ▶
It was at the Enable Base in Seattle.
[1:23:04 - 1:23:11] ▶
I think it would be Island Naval Air Station, I think.
[1:23:11 - 1:23:15] ▶
But anyways, the Enable Air Station up there where these civilians got on to the base and got into something.
[1:23:15 - 1:23:24] ▶
And they saw something they weren't supposed to see.
[1:23:24 - 1:23:29] ▶
And this group came out and went into their home and scared the dickens out of them.
[1:23:29 - 1:23:36] ▶
The stage to an alien.
[1:23:36 - 1:23:38] ▶
It's very sensitive.
[1:23:39 - 1:23:41] ▶
That and some of the other things that we did in recruiting people.
[1:23:41 - 1:23:49] ▶
One of the things that you want to do to protect a base is recruit people outside the base to report into the base.
[1:23:49 - 1:23:58] ▶
So when I was at Curlin, we had...
[1:23:58 - 1:24:00] ▶
I didn't do this, but we had a whole group of...
[1:24:00 - 1:24:05] ▶
We call them the swindlers who could recruit anybody.
[1:24:05 - 1:24:08] ▶
And they went out and recruited primarily press people.
[1:24:08 - 1:24:12] ▶
Because they're the ones that are going to know first.
[1:24:12 - 1:24:14] ▶
So every news agency, every television, radio station,
[1:24:14 - 1:24:21] ▶
any Albuquerque or Santa Fe area had our snitches in there.
[1:24:21 - 1:24:26] ▶
We paid them good money.
[1:24:29 - 1:24:31] ▶
One of the reasons you get the people that you pay them.
[1:24:31 - 1:24:34] ▶
And that was controversial.
[1:24:34 - 1:24:36] ▶
That was some controversial.
[1:24:36 - 1:24:38] ▶
You knew of national media that have had some of them?
[1:24:38 - 1:24:41] ▶
I'm not going to name them, but we had one out of...
[1:24:43 - 1:24:47] ▶
She was recruited out of a local station here in Albuquerque.
[1:24:47 - 1:24:53] ▶
And then she went on to a national NBC.
[1:24:53 - 1:24:57] ▶
And she told us everything.
[1:24:57 - 1:25:01] ▶
We didn't handle her or somebody closer to...
[1:25:01 - 1:25:06] ▶
I think she would say out of Washington, handled her.
[1:25:06 - 1:25:08] ▶
But she would tell us things that were going to happen.
[1:25:08 - 1:25:12] ▶
Were these also assets that could help stop stories from coming out?
[1:25:12 - 1:25:17] ▶
And it wasn't just UFOs.
[1:25:18 - 1:25:22] ▶
It was anything that pertained to Air Force or military
[1:25:22 - 1:25:26] ▶
or the security of a base or spying or anything like that.
[1:25:26 - 1:25:31] ▶
If they heard something, they thought it would be interesting.
[1:25:31 - 1:25:34] ▶
And the other way around that they would help...
[1:25:36 - 1:25:38] ▶
You had people who could help stop it from being brought to...
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The high level producer and directors.
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And how did they pay so that it wasn't...
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What you do is you make them sign a form and you tell them...
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You got to report this IRS.
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But whether they do it or not, you know.
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You're not going to give your form to IRS.
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But you're supposed to tell them that.
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There's a form that they sign.
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And you give them...
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I think it's anything over...
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Was everything over $50 they had to sign for.
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We always had money.
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We needed to do something.
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There was different funding.
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We call them funding sites.
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If you were doing an operation, a counterintelligence operation,
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and you needed $5,000 for this,
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then they would give us a number.
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Okay, it's under this site.
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And somebody would deposit it in a bank here.
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And we would use that money.
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Or they would give us vouchers or something to that effect.
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But there would be different funding sources.
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I'm not sure where they came from.
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I'm sure I'll go over and make funding.
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Some place up there.
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Congress appropriates the funds.
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And there's a lot of black projects and black funding.
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So I'm sure we got a piece of that.
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So I was just going to re-assure about Bechtel Corporation
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of the involvement you had with them.
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Or their involvement with this subject.
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Bechtel was in charge of security and operations
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that a number of facilities, including the Nevada Test Site.
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And one of their chief security officers
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was a former colleague of mine who worked at Courtenham with me.
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And Bechtel, there was a lot of experiments done
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at the Nevada Test Site, which is of course now the Nevada
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and National Security Site, regarding your full research
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of alien technology reverse engineering.
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Well, they were trying to, I think Sandy and Labs had a project
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had funding to delve into this time travel.
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Whether you could go back in time or forward in time.
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And they built facilities out there to test different things.
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I think they were underground magnets.
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And they were shooting lasers and things through them.
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They were going to open up a fabric space in order to do try and try.
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And I was, I watched a number of those things.
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I was briefed on a counterintelligence project out there.
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But I don't know whatever the outcome of it was.
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I don't know if they ever figured it out or not.
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Are there any experiments that you hear of or come across experiments
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dealing with so-called teleportation or moving across space
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That was part of this project that they were doing out there.
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They actually, I think, teleported something from one end of a table to the other.
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I think that's the best they ever did.
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And maybe that's all I know.
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Maybe they did more that I wasn't aware of.
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But you had knowledge of that?
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I actually saw craft flying above a groom like that did things that you couldn't do
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with a conventional aircraft, speeding going 1400 miles an hour and stopping
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and changing angles and then going straight up and stopping and coming back down.
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And this is a big aircraft.
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This is one of these oval shaped alien crafts that they were testing out there.
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I don't, you know, you can look at it and you could just tell,
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but just a conventionally, you know, it's because common sense tells you that how do they do this stuff?
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It can't be a conventional craft.
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It can't use conventional means to do this.
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It has to be anti-gravity or something because it would kill a pilot.
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I mean, I had a pilot standing next to me who had been a fighter pilot for years,
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flew F-106's, and he told me there's no way in a rural pilot could have survived that.
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The G-Force is, yeah.
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He said, accelerating isn't bad, but you got to stop.
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When you stop, it's going to break your body pieces.
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You know, so if you brain to come out of your nut.
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So that's one of the weird things I saw that just not explain them.
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Well, I can't figure out it.
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Were there human pilots on board?
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I never saw a land, so I don't know.
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The U-R-E-D-A-E-F-R-F-R-F.
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Only the cash lander.
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I actually interviewed him.
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There were four of them.
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I mean, there was two pilots.
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There was a systems officer that was handling the equipment,
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and then there was a, I can't remember what the fourth person did.
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He was an avigator of what he was.
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And I interviewed them.
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And everything that could have gone wrong,
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it took off fine from Nevada and flew perfectly.
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But when they said it was going to an airbase,
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I can't remember which airbase it was.
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Some airbase in Texas.
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I think it was Web Air Force Base in Big Springs, I think it was.
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was Web.
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And when they tried to slow it down, that's when the problem's in.
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And then a power and so many things went wrong that they almost crashed.
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They called for rescue helicopters.
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They thought they were going to crash.
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So these helicopters came out, but they finally got it going again.
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And they landed it someplace.
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Apparently it was just past where they spurred all that radiation
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on those two porky or three people or however many it were.
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And then they flew it back to Nevada.
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It was one of those big ones.
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It was not a saucer-shaped, it was more of a huge oval shape.
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It was a reverse-engineered.
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Reversed-engineered.
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They trained nine months before they ever flew it.
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And then they trained another, I can't remember how long, four or five months flying it all around Nevada.
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But the problem is it's a reverse-engineered alien craft
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with one of our nuclear propulsion systems.
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That wasn't refined because they couldn't figure out how to reverse-engineer the aliens.
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They got it to work at times, but they couldn't manipulate it the way they needed to for a human pilot to fly it.
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So they had to put one of our propulsion system in it and it malfunctioned.
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And they trained and there wasn't any any, the pilot told me they were flying and everything seemed they were flying at a high-end,
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I can't remember what altitude it was, flying perfectly fine.
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No problems whatsoever until they slowed down.
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You said it and then, I'll help, brokalous.
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Then the system just malfunctioned and they had this, some something that was supposed to throw thrust,
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but the thruster was moving all around and they had a filter, some kind of filter that was filtering,
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supposed to filter, that didn't work, that didn't come down and it was just a mess.
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You know what kind of velocities this craft reached?
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That's all I was told and maybe probably more than that, but just what he told me of the pilot told me when I interviewed him was, he had it up the Mach 1.
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The sounds of a hybrid craft had some aspects of the ET craft and other conventional.
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Yeah, the body and everything was ET, the only thing that was propulsion was art.
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It was us, with American and conventional, actually a nuclear, and it just didn't work.
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And there were four humans.
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And none of them suffered any radiation problems.
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It's just those four people on the ground.
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I really want to thank you.
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I really appreciate your help.
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