3,305 segments
So I'm here with Peter LaVenda, the author of Sinister Forces, Secret Machines, The Unholy
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Alliance, and many other books. If we have a crash saucer from the 40s, I would say if we are in
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possession of it and they're in possession of it too, then there is an agreement between countries
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that says we're not going to talk about this. It's the fight club. JFK was assassinated over
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quote-unquote the alien presence. E. Howard Hunt on his deathbed did claim that there was a
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conspiracy to kill Kennedy that he knew about it. I mean, everybody that represents the blue-blooded
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Brahmins of American society, old money people, were at a freaking seance in the woods in Maine on
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New Year's Eve. What is the Necronomicon and why is the Strategic Air Command interested in the
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Necronomicon? How much time do you have? At some point, somebody did something they weren't supposed
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to do. It might have jump-started civilization on this planet.
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off your annual plan. So I'm here with Peter Lavenda, who I couldn't be more honored to be with.
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I think you are an amazing big picture thinker who kind of consumes all of the data around non-human
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intelligence UFOs, but also connects them with ancient traditions and religion and mysticism
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in a super unique way. And in a way that's caught the attention of higher ups in the government.
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And you've also just led a just a fascinating life. And so I'm really excited for you to be
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here today. You're the author of Sinister Forces, Secret Machines, Man, Gods, and War,
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and The Unholy Alliance and many other books. And so, yeah, thank you for being here.
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I appreciate it. Thanks very much for having me. This is great.
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Absolutely. So I want to start with this idea that reality itself might be somewhat choreographed
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or scripted, an idea you explore in Sinister Forces. You talk about all these kind of
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interesting synchronicities where things are written about or talked about before they happen.
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Do you want to explore any sort of examples of that?
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Yeah, sure. I mean, this is something that occurred to me when I was, you know,
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really in the very beginning of the Sinister Forces research, which goes all the way back
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to Watergate, right? So I started during Watergate, for those of you too young to know
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what I'm talking about. This was this, you know, break-in of the Democratic Party national
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headquarters ordered by Nixon and the whole thing that happened in the 1970s. In 1972, and
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then it lasted until 1975, the investigations and all of this. And I was following all of this.
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I was reading three newspapers a day. And I was living in New York, which is where I'm from.
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And so you're getting a lot of media attention. You're getting a lot of analysis. A lot of, you
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know, people are showing up and they're talking about their backgrounds. And as I'm going through
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all this, I'm thinking, this is just weird. There's something about this that sort of defies
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regular analysis of, you know, political systems. There's something else at work.
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And I started pulling at the threads of it. And I think one of the fascinating things that happened,
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I was starting to research Nazi occultism, because that was going to be a chapter of
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Sinister Forces. The idea that governments and religion could somehow get together in such a way
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as to cause this bend in reality, kind of, where it's not just, you know, government running people's
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lives anymore from a purely mundane situation. And it's not the churches from a purely spiritual one.
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It's like this weird mix of both of them, you know, and what kind of trouble could you possibly
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get into doing that? So I started, you know, looking at that and I wound up at the National
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Archives in D.C. And I rented a, you know, a room in a low cost kind of hotel off DuPont Circle.
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And I'm in the room and I bring my suitcase in and I look up on the wall.
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And somebody had left this huge poster of, you know, the eye in the pyramid, you know,
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on top of the triangle of the pyramid. You know, this Illuminati symbol was like hanging there,
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you know, in the room where I'm starting to do this research. I'm thinking this is a little bit
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too on the nose. So one thing led to another. And it made me realize that there was something else
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going on that the, what we were learning about Watergate was only really the tip of the iceberg.
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If you start pulling at the people who were involved, like E. Howard Hunt, right? Famous guy,
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former CIA officer, the action officer basically in charge of the Bay of Pigs operation, right? So
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he was down in Miami when all that was going on, trying to organize this invasion that Kennedy
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eventually said, no, we're not going to give you air support. You guys are freaking nuts, right?
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Pull back. Don't do this stuff. But they ignored him, right? Did all this thing.
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E. Howard Hunt wrote at least three occult novels. Really? Yeah. And he lived on a place
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called Witch's Island. What? So I'm thinking, well, wait a minute here, right? Let me read
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the novels. Maybe there's something there. Who does that, right? I just said, I want to read
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these novels. And oh my God, it's an attack on the Kennedys, the Kennedys as Satan worshippers,
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thinly veiled kind of a story about that. You know, the vitriol that he had for the Kennedys
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over Bay of Pigs was palpable in this. And he made them, you know, Satan worshippers
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and stuff. It was really cool. So I said, I got to pay attention to Howard Hunt a little
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bit more closely. Okay. Years go by. It's now 1979, 1980. And I get a job. I'm working
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for a living as a regular human being, you know. So I get a job in this strange company
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in Queens, New York, within walking distance of where I was living, which made it, you
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know, nice. I could just walk to work in New York. Nobody walks to work. So I'm walking
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to this place and, you know, I have a desk next to this guy. And this guy in this tiny
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little company in the middle of nowhere turns out to have been E. Howard Hunt's colleague
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at the front that they worked for in Washington, D.C. Okay. So this guy is working there.
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What was the front? Well, the front was Robert Mullen Corporation. It was like a kind of a
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Mormon operation in D.C. that was supposedly a publicity, public relations firm. But E.
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Howard Hunt had his official office there, even though he was no longer, quote unquote,
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CIA, but he was operating here. He was part of the plumbers at that time. So Gordon Liddy,
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everybody was one big happy family. This guy had the office next to him. Also CIA, also operating
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as a front, except this guy was based either in Brazil for a long time or in Singapore.
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Right. So all these things, I mean, I'm right there, right next to the guy who knows personally,
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E. Howard Hunt, and I'm researching E. Howard Hunt. And he tells me his name, Arthur Hochberg.
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I guess I can tell his name now because I've talked about it. I printed it. And I went home after
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he started telling me his whole life story. He's going into CIA. He's going into this. He's going into that.
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The language is because we both spoke a little Mandarin. He spoke better than I did. And so there
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was this immediate connection on that basis. And then slowly he just reveals that this was his
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position. So I go home, you know, I'm going through all my books and there's his name, right? And no one
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knew what had happened to him. And there he was in this tiny firm, right? Having lost his job at CIA.
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Because of the admiral. When the admiral came in after Watergate and all this stuff, they fired a lot of
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action agents, right? A lot of the officers who were actually in the field got fired. It's a big
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scandal. And, you know, so this guy lost his job, right? So I'm working with next door, next to him
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for like three months, you know, he's telling me stories and stuff. I'm thinking, holy, and here I am
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Right. This is not possible. Like if you had been a journalist and you were desperately looking for
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this guy, you wouldn't have found him.
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But here I am next to him and he's like driving me home in his car. And we're parked in front and
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he's talking about AFIO, right? The association of former intelligence officers. And then later I get
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invited to an AFIO thing like 10 years later. So this would happen to me all the time.
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There's something that happens, I think, when you set your attention on something that is somehow
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And it attracts more and more of that thing into your life. And it's hard to say whether
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that is some sort of retrocausal relationship, a la some future that's already sort of set
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But that's so fascinating. And I was just thinking, you know, E. Howard Hunt, his lawyer,
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Douglas Caddy, told dark journalists, you know, somewhat recently that JFK was assassinated,
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because E. Howard Hunt is obviously implicated as much as any agent in the JFK assassination
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And this guy Douglas Caddy said that E. Howard Hunt told him essentially, I think as he was
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dying, that JFK was assassinated over, quote unquote, the alien presence.
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And so do you think that E. Howard Hunt knew about, you know, NHI and aliens and that JFK's
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assassination had something to do with that?
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Well, I mean, you know, I like to work with tangible stuff like documents and stuff like
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that. That's as tangible as you're going to get in a situation like that, I believe.
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I don't really know if I 100 percent trust it or believe it. I know that E. Howard Hunt
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on his deathbed did claim that there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, that he knew about
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it and that CIA was somehow involved or at least a branch or a rogue element of CIA.
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I will pretty much accept that as a distinct possibility.
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Since the beginning, everybody has thought that, right, because of Bay of Pigs. There
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was this, I mean, what happened with Watergate? It was all the same Bay of Pigs guys, right?
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The same ones who were involved with Bay of Pigs, the same anti-Castro Cubans now show up
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in Washington, burglaring, you know, burglarizing the Democratic National Committee. So, yeah, there's
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a connection. I'm sure there is, right? Who you can take to court over this? I'm not sure.
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Can I weave something together? And I don't know if this is the case, but like, you know,
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Nixon was head of the 5412 Commission under Eisenhower. And he used to task Howard Hughes
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with things that. So 5412 Commission was already created as this interagency kind of coordination
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body that would give the president plausible deniability on sort of bad things that, you know,
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he wanted to do domestically. And, um, and then on top of that, you had this other separation
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layer where Nixon would task Howard Hughes with doing the really dirty stuff. And so there's
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this idea that, um, you had, uh, these kind of Cuban assassins. Um, they called them the S
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force, uh, or, you know, they're, they went by different names, alpha 66 and, you know,
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operation mongoose had something to do with this. Um, and, uh, uh, so he created that originally
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to take out Castro and Che Guevara. Um, but that's sort of, you know, didn't end up happening.
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Obviously you had the Bay of Pigs. JFK takes over from Eisenhower and the narrative I've
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heard is that JFK, you know, uh, fires Dulles. Dulles is sort of licking his wounds and really
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angry at JFK and the Brown brothers Harriman and re-operationalizes this S force to then take
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out, uh, uh, JFK himself. And what's really crazy is this connects to Watergate because
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Howard Hughes is a long time lawyer, or I think like, you know, general counsel or,
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you know, kind of right-hand guy, um, was a guy named Larry O'Brien. Larry O'Brien was
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running McGovern's campaign and he was the guy whose cell phone got bugged in the Watergate
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scandal. So it's this crazy, it's because you have to ask like, why, if you're Nixon, why
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would you, would you ever break into the DNC when you're way ahead of McGovern in the polls?
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And obviously Nixon was notoriously paranoid. And so maybe it's because you have this guy,
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Larry O'Brien, who knows that you commissioned originally this S force team of assassins,
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and then they got operationalized to take out your longest political opponent. Even though
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he didn't, he didn't want JFK dead. Of course he would never, you know, do something like that,
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but he was probably afraid that it would get pinned on him. So it's pretty nuts. It's this crazy
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But, but, but, but everybody knows everybody else. The problem that I have is that it gets
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tighter and tighter and tighter. And it's the same thing with the nine, this famous thing that
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I talk about in sinister forces, right? You have these disparate individuals. You think they have
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nothing in common, nothing to do with each other. And then you pull at a certain thread and they,
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they all come together.
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So tell us who, then who, who are the nine?
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Well, this actually connects to this whole story too, in its, in its own way. So you have,
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the nine, of course, this was a, in 1952 to 1953, there's this famous guy, not famous yet at the
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time, Andrea Puharic, a guy with medical training and technical training. He's involved in, you know,
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technology, you know, for medical purposes and stuff. But he also gets involved with a bunch of
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sort of borderline psychic people, right? Back in the 19, late forties, early fifties,
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there were seances and there was like psychic phenomena research and stuff going on. J.B.
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Rine was doing his thing, studying ESP. And so you have a guy like Puharic, who finds himself up in the,
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in the woods in Maine. He was supposed to be back in the city. He was going to go to take up a position
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in California, I think. But he gets involved with these people. And to make a long story short,
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there's a seance that's held in late 52, early 53. I think it was the New Year's Eve of 52 to 53.
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And there are nine people involved in the seance. Now, these are not just some casual nine people
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you pick up, like, you know, your neighbors or something, right? This was a DuPont and an Astor
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and a Forbes. I mean, everybody that represents the blue-blooded Brahmins of American society,
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old money people, were at a seance, a freaking seance, right? In the woods, in Maine on New Year's
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Eve. These people don't do New Year's Eve that way normally, right? There's big parties and there's
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champagne and there's God knows what. In this case, they're all sitting around a seance table
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with Andrea Paharic. And one of them is the guy who was the inventor of the Bell helicopter,
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right? So... Is that Arthur Young? Arthur Young. So Arthur Young is there with his wife. His wife is
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Ruth Forbes Payne Young, right? She had a lot of names. She was excessively nomenclatured. And so you
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have, you know, Ruth Forbes Payne Young. She's a Forbes. She was married to a George Payne,
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Lyman Payne, and also married to Arthur Young. So she had all of these pedigrees all mixed in together.
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And she was the best friend of, I think her name was Mary Douglas, if I'm not mistaken,
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who was the paramour of Alan Dulles. So Alan Dulles, which keeps coming up in these conversations,
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his girlfriend is the best friend of Ruth Young, married to Arthur Young. So already there's this
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weird connection, right? And when I say best friends, I mean, they told each other everything.
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That kind of... It wasn't like a casual, you know, thing. So they were best friends. And then you had
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a DuPont, you had an Astor, you had all of these people at the seance. And they're contacting some
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spiritual force. And there's a medium, a man from India, who then becomes kind of famous in sort of
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religious liberalism sort of circles, trying to... One world religion kind of thing, you know,
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trying to make peace with everybody and all of this kind of stuff that was going on at the time.
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And so he's conducting the seance and he's solving mathematical equations that
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Andrija Pujaric puts to him to see if he's really talking to a spiritual force.
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And this guy is answering correctly, solving mathematical equations.
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So then, and this guy evidently materializes out of the clear blue sky, little threads,
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one for each of the members of this group. They're supposed to wrap around their wrist,
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makes them Brahmins, like actual Brahmins in the Indian sense. But they're Brahmins assigned to this
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exalted rank, this elite status by these nine forces that are spinning somehow above them,
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which later become identified as residents of a UFO in low Earth orbit. The same one that is later
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then being contacted by Uri Geller, who was then discovered by Buharic, brought to the United States
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to be tested. It just, it gets incestuous. But Ruth and Arthur, they have a daughter,
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who's also Ruth. Her name is Ruth Payne. She lives in Texas, by the way. And she's studying Russian.
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She's fascinated by the Russian language. She's a Quaker who wants to study Russian. Don't think
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she ever managed it in her life, but at that moment she wanted to study Russian. And in her
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home, she opens her door to some refugees, you know, people who are recent immigrants from Russia.
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Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina and their kids.
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So they're living with Ruth Payne in this house in Texas. She gets him the job at the
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Texas School Book Depository. So wild. So you have this kind of, uh,
[0:18:47 - 0:18:53] ▶
blue blooded elite adjacent person who's, uh, uh, whose mother engaged in the seance with
[0:18:53 - 0:19:00] ▶
Puharic. And, you know, they, they think of themselves as sort of guardians of the world
[0:19:00 - 0:19:05] ▶
via this like council of nine, you know, nonhumans or whatever. And she is somehow housing
[0:19:05 - 0:19:13] ▶
Lee Harvey Oswald, where if you were to think of like an actor in history or agent who fundamentally
[0:19:13 - 0:19:20] ▶
shifts timelines in this dramatic way, I mean, he's gotta be it.
[0:19:20 - 0:19:24] ▶
He's gotta be it. Yeah.
[0:19:24 - 0:19:25] ▶
So, and, and the thing is she knows him. She goes on vacation a few months before the
[0:19:27 - 0:19:33] ▶
assassination and visits her in-laws.
[0:19:33 - 0:19:36] ▶
Visits Arthur Young and his wife. Obviously she discusses the fact that she has this Russian
[0:19:36 - 0:19:42] ▶
In her house. Right?
[0:19:44 - 0:19:45] ▶
Uh, we don't know all that was discussed, but we do know now we have scraps of correspondence
[0:19:45 - 0:19:51] ▶
that have survived between them after the assassination. And Arthur Young's wife is telling
[0:19:51 - 0:19:57] ▶
Ruth, her daughter-in-law, Ixnay on the Oswald gate, right? Do not talk about this, anybody.
[0:19:57 - 0:20:02] ▶
Do not, you know, get involved in this thing. You don't know how bad that's going to be for you.
[0:20:02 - 0:20:06] ▶
You know, distance yourself as much as possible. Don't give interviews, et cetera, et cetera. Right.
[0:20:06 - 0:20:10] ▶
So we know that there was a big discussion about this going on. So how is it that this happens?
[0:20:11 - 0:20:17] ▶
How is it right that this bunch of people having a seance in Maine in 1952
[0:20:17 - 0:20:24] ▶
are 10 years later implicated in the assassination of the 20th century?
[0:20:25 - 0:20:29] ▶
It seems like a level of coordination that is above the heads of all of the participants.
[0:20:29 - 0:20:35] ▶
Um, another example of, of that possibly is you talk about some of, you know, kind of people who
[0:20:35 - 0:20:42] ▶
are interested in UFOs or, or involved directly in UFOs in the government.
[0:20:42 - 0:20:46] ▶
Also being related to the JFK assassination.
[0:20:47 - 0:20:49] ▶
Showing up in those two places. Do you want to talk about that?
[0:20:49 - 0:20:51] ▶
Well, that's what happened. That's when, going back to the original question you asked me.
[0:20:51 - 0:20:55] ▶
I realize I go around in circles, but you know, as Matthew McConaughey says, time is a spiral.
[0:20:55 - 0:21:01] ▶
Um, so what we have is what got me involved in this, really involved in the UFO thing.
[0:21:02 - 0:21:08] ▶
Because I really wasn't, you know, from the beginning, I mean, I was kind of like interested,
[0:21:08 - 0:21:11] ▶
like anybody would be interested, but not, you know, to the extent that I would study it.
[0:21:11 - 0:21:16] ▶
I'm going through the, the Warren Commission reports, the, all this, I mean, the entire
[0:21:17 - 0:21:21] ▶
thing, not the, not the, uh, summary, but all of the volumes.
[0:21:21 - 0:21:25] ▶
And I'm going through the, uh, Ruth Payne, uh, the lady in Texas, the Quaker.
[0:21:25 - 0:21:31] ▶
Studying Russian. And she's, she's talking to the commission, you know, and she's going, how she
[0:21:31 - 0:21:36] ▶
met Lee Oswald and Marina and everything else. And then she starts talking about how, you know,
[0:21:36 - 0:21:41] ▶
just before the assassination, she goes up to visit, you know, Arthur Young and et cetera. At that point,
[0:21:41 - 0:21:47] ▶
um, Alan Dulles is part of that committee hearing. He stops her. He totally derails that story. And he,
[0:21:48 - 0:21:56] ▶
he makes a joke about something else completely unrelated and buries it. She was about to say
[0:21:56 - 0:22:02] ▶
that she was visiting Arthur Young and Ruth Forbes Payne Young, right up there in Pennsylvania.
[0:22:02 - 0:22:06] ▶
And was going to, you know, talk, talk about this. And he cuts her off. He, you just read it and
[0:22:06 - 0:22:12] ▶
you say, what happened? You know, it's like Kevin Costner reading the thing saying, ask the next
[0:22:12 - 0:22:18] ▶
Right. Ask the question. Nobody ever asked the question. They don't follow up with her at all.
[0:22:19 - 0:22:23] ▶
This would have been a major story. Right?
[0:22:23 - 0:22:25] ▶
Yeah. But there's also, don't you connect like the Maury Island incident?
[0:22:25 - 0:22:30] ▶
Uh, I'm getting there. Okay.
[0:22:30 - 0:22:32] ▶
So that's what happened. I read that and I'm thinking, what the hell was that all about?
[0:22:32 - 0:22:36] ▶
Right? So I pull on that thread. Yeah.
[0:22:36 - 0:22:38] ▶
So I pull in the thread of Ruth Payne and I get to, you know, Arthur Young and I get to the,
[0:22:38 - 0:22:42] ▶
the nine and thinking, what the hell is this? And then, you know, and then I'm looking at the report
[0:22:42 - 0:22:47] ▶
of, of Jim Garrison in New Orleans. Right. And all that he's doing and he's investigating these people.
[0:22:47 - 0:22:54] ▶
And one of the people he's investigates is Fred Krisman.
[0:22:54 - 0:22:56] ▶
I'm thinking, wait a minute. I've heard that name before. Right.
[0:22:57 - 0:23:00] ▶
Who the hell is Fred Krisman? And so I pull on that thread. It's Fred Krisman from Maury Island
[0:23:00 - 0:23:04] ▶
from 1947. And I pull on that and I come up with Guy Bannister, the same Guy Bannister who had an
[0:23:04 - 0:23:10] ▶
office in New Orleans that Lee Harvey Oswald worked out of passing out those, you know,
[0:23:10 - 0:23:15] ▶
Fair Play for Cuba leaflets. Yeah.
[0:23:15 - 0:23:17] ▶
Right. So it was all in this one office, David Ferry, Jack Martin, all these psychos were in this
[0:23:17 - 0:23:22] ▶
one building with Guy Bannister and Guy Bannister was the guy. Yeah.
[0:23:22 - 0:23:26] ▶
He was the guy in the Pacific Northwest during 1947, during the, the whole UFO flap with Kenneth
[0:23:26 - 0:23:33] ▶
Arnold and Maury Island and all the rest of it. So he's up there, Guy Bannister. He's member of the FBI,
[0:23:33 - 0:23:39] ▶
special agent. He's reporting back directly to Hoover by telex, which was a form of telegram, which
[0:23:39 - 0:23:46] ▶
was a form of email in those days. Right. And they were mentioned that the designation was
[0:23:46 - 0:23:53] ▶
a special operation or special mission dash X. It was the X files, right? The actual X files.
[0:23:53 - 0:23:58] ▶
And he's reporting on UFO sightings. That's his job. Guy Bannister's job is reporting on UFO sightings
[0:23:59 - 0:24:06] ▶
back to Hoover. That's so fascinating. Yeah. And I believe people think that Fred Krisman was one of,
[0:24:06 - 0:24:14] ▶
you know, there were these three quote unquote hobos that were arrested. Right.
[0:24:14 - 0:24:18] ▶
And they think Fred Krisman was one of those hobos. I don't know if you corroborated that at all,
[0:24:18 - 0:24:22] ▶
but. I can corroborate. In fact, he wasn't the only one. I mean, E. Howard Hunt might have been one of
[0:24:22 - 0:24:27] ▶
them as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was also a rumor that he was there in Dallas that day.
[0:24:27 - 0:24:30] ▶
And so, and Fred Krisman is, what is the Maury Island incident for, for people that aren't aware
[0:24:30 - 0:24:35] ▶
that there was actually more than one UFO incident in 1947? Right. We always think of Roswell when we think of 47,
[0:24:35 - 0:24:41] ▶
but Roswell happened just slightly later. Initially it was Kenneth Arnold. He was a pilot.
[0:24:41 - 0:24:47] ▶
I think he was with the Civil Air Patrol at the time. And he was flying some mission out in the
[0:24:48 - 0:24:52] ▶
Pacific Northwest in the Rockies. And he sees a flight of weird craft going at impossible speeds.
[0:24:52 - 0:24:59] ▶
And he describes them like, like saucers flying, you know, dipping over the, skimming over the water,
[0:24:59 - 0:25:05] ▶
which gave rise into the flying saucer scenario. But his description of it was sort of a wing shaped
[0:25:05 - 0:25:11] ▶
craft with a sort of a bite out of the end of it, the way he drew it, which is closer to the Horton
[0:25:11 - 0:25:15] ▶
design, which is a whole other story we can get into. Yeah. But anyway, so he came up with the idea
[0:25:15 - 0:25:20] ▶
of the flying saucer. He's, he was the person who started the terminology inadvertently. So at the same
[0:25:20 - 0:25:25] ▶
time in Maury Island, which is in the same part of the world, in the upper Pacific Northwest,
[0:25:25 - 0:25:28] ▶
you had this very strange concept. There's a guy sitting in a boat in Puget Sound and what appear to
[0:25:28 - 0:25:37] ▶
be UFOs of some kind are flying overhead. And one of them appears to be in distress. And it rains like
[0:25:37 - 0:25:43] ▶
shards of metal or slag or something all over his, his boat, a small boat, killing his dog, wounding his
[0:25:43 - 0:25:51] ▶
kid. His son is in the, is in the, is in the ship and putting a hole in the ship. So he gets back and he talks
[0:25:51 - 0:25:55] ▶
to his supposedly his boss. Uh, they're doing something in, in, in Puget Sound and his boss is
[0:25:55 - 0:26:02] ▶
Fred Crisman. Now, Fred Crisman, it's really hard to find out his background. He's one of these guys
[0:26:02 - 0:26:09] ▶
with a very murky background. We believe he was OSS during the war. Okay. Which was the forerunner of CIA.
[0:26:09 - 0:26:16] ▶
He, he seems to have known Clay Shaw, which was one of the reasons why Jim Garrison went after him.
[0:26:16 - 0:26:22] ▶
Clay Shaw and Fred Crisman seem to have known each other well enough that
[0:26:22 - 0:26:25] ▶
Clay Shaw phoned him at the time that all of this was going on with the Jim Garrison and the Kennedy
[0:26:25 - 0:26:30] ▶
assassination. He's Clay Shaw. Oh, it was Clay Shaw. Clay Shaw was the one guy that, uh, Jim Garrison
[0:26:30 - 0:26:36] ▶
brought to trial, uh, for the Kennedy assassination. Okay. If you know the movie, um, JFK,
[0:26:36 - 0:26:41] ▶
uh, Tommy Lee Jones plays Clay Shaw in that film. Uh, so he was the guy that was at the center of it,
[0:26:41 - 0:26:47] ▶
kind of a CIA, uh, funded guy. He had been a CIA contract agent for a while. He was not an actual CIA
[0:26:47 - 0:26:55] ▶
agent, but he was one of these people that got paid off by the agency, uh, to do things for them.
[0:26:55 - 0:26:59] ▶
Mm-hmm. Uh, we found that out after the trial, unfortunately, not before.
[0:26:59 - 0:27:03] ▶
Yeah. So, uh, he, he beat the rap. He did not get acquitted. Um, he did not get convicted. He was
[0:27:03 - 0:27:08] ▶
acquitted. Um, but he knew Lee Harvey Oswald. He knew David Ferry. He knew all the players in New
[0:27:08 - 0:27:14] ▶
Orleans. So he is arrested, um, by Jim Garrison on his orders, uh, for having been involved in the
[0:27:14 - 0:27:21] ▶
Kennedy assassination. And evidently, Clay Shaw calls Fred Crisman. So why, right? So you're asking
[0:27:21 - 0:27:30] ▶
yourself, this is the guy that was involved in this seminal incident, and this is not over, right? So
[0:27:30 - 0:27:34] ▶
Fred Crisman then makes a few phone calls after his friend, uh, gets rained on by a UFO. And these
[0:27:35 - 0:27:43] ▶
phone calls wind up attracting the attention of the United States Air Force or the army Air Force
[0:27:43 - 0:27:48] ▶
at the time that were just transitioning to the Air Force and two Air Force intelligence agents come
[0:27:48 - 0:27:52] ▶
and visit Fred Crisman, uh, and his partner and, um, Kenneth Arnold shows up, right? He's invited to
[0:27:52 - 0:28:01] ▶
this meeting, which is weird. And so all of these guys are meeting, I believe it's in Seattle and
[0:28:01 - 0:28:07] ▶
they're all getting together to discuss this thing with the military. Like what happened? What did they
[0:28:07 - 0:28:11] ▶
see in all the rest of it? I think that there's a lot of weirdness around that meeting. Uh, Kenneth
[0:28:11 - 0:28:17] ▶
Arnold was, did not have a reservation in any hotel. He just kind of showed up because Crisman
[0:28:17 - 0:28:21] ▶
said, why don't you come down? We're going to talk to these guys. And Arnold shows up and there's no
[0:28:21 - 0:28:26] ▶
room at the inn until finally they get to the most expensive hotel in town and they had a reservation
[0:28:26 - 0:28:31] ▶
already made for him. He didn't know about it. Turns out the place was bugged. Turns out a local
[0:28:31 - 0:28:36] ▶
journalist got a tape of the entire meeting and he dies shortly thereafter. Right. I mean, just too
[0:28:36 - 0:28:43] ▶
much weirdness around us. But in the end they give Fred Crisman gives the army guys a box of the slag
[0:28:43 - 0:28:51] ▶
to take back for analysis. This is like tremendous, right? This is UFO slag. Yeah. Wow. So they get back
[0:28:51 - 0:28:57] ▶
on their plane and they're going to fly back to their base. Their plane explodes in mid air. No way.
[0:28:57 - 0:29:03] ▶
So they die. The material is gone with them. There were survivors, but not the two guys who actually
[0:29:03 - 0:29:09] ▶
were there and took the information. Wow. Not the guys who wrote the report, right? Whatever report
[0:29:09 - 0:29:14] ▶
existed. And everything was gone with them. And that was the first fatality that we know of in the UFO,
[0:29:14 - 0:29:20] ▶
the 20th century UFO phenomenon era, were these two Air Force officers. Alchemist, did you enjoy that? If you
[0:29:20 - 0:29:29] ▶
want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy magazine we just launched on Substack.
[0:29:29 - 0:29:35] ▶
That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into every
[0:29:35 - 0:29:40] ▶
video. With weekly articles exploring all of the strange, forgotten, and conspiratorial corners of
[0:29:40 - 0:29:46] ▶
space, history, and high weirdness. So join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am
[0:29:46 - 0:29:53] ▶
including the full link in the description of this video. Such a wild story and then such a weird
[0:29:53 - 0:29:58] ▶
connection that you have Fred Chrisman who's reporting to Guy Bannister. They're running the X
[0:29:58 - 0:30:03] ▶
files and doing all UFO investigations. And then, uh, seems like Fred Chrisman has something to do with
[0:30:03 - 0:30:09] ▶
the, uh, you know, JFK assassination. Just so weird. At least we know the Clay Shaw connection and then maybe
[0:30:09 - 0:30:14] ▶
he was a hobo who was arrested on the scene. Right. It's just so strange. And then you, like you said,
[0:30:14 - 0:30:20] ▶
you have, I think the address was like 544 Camp Street in New Orleans where you had all these
[0:30:20 - 0:30:24] ▶
guys kind of working together. And they were bishops in a crazy church.
[0:30:24 - 0:30:27] ▶
Well, so tell me about that. Do you have time?
[0:30:27 - 0:30:31] ▶
Oh yeah. We got all the time in the world. All right. So there's, there's a crazy church.
[0:30:31 - 0:30:35] ▶
David Ferry and Jack Martin belong to this crazy church. Okay. Jim Garrison could not figure out what
[0:30:36 - 0:30:42] ▶
the hell was the purpose of this church. Like how, how did it fit into this whole thing? He knew that
[0:30:42 - 0:30:47] ▶
they were, you know, ex agents, they were running ops, you know, they were, uh, white supremacists
[0:30:47 - 0:30:52] ▶
in many cases. David Ferry certainly was, uh, Guy Bannister certainly was. There was this whole
[0:30:52 - 0:30:57] ▶
white supremacist thing that was going through the assassination, starting with an attempt at
[0:30:57 - 0:31:01] ▶
the assassination in Florida by white supremacist group. And then there was this, this group in New
[0:31:01 - 0:31:06] ▶
Orleans. Right. And Guy Bannister was like this rabid anti-communist as was David Ferry. And so
[0:31:06 - 0:31:12] ▶
the rabid anti-communism got mixed up with all kinds of other stuff. Right.
[0:31:13 - 0:31:16] ▶
David Ferry. So there was a church, um, who's head was headquartered in the Bronx of all places,
[0:31:16 - 0:31:25] ▶
the American Orthodox Catholic church, which was a big name for a very small church. The church was
[0:31:25 - 0:31:32] ▶
mostly clergy and no parishioners. There was actually no followers. Nobody actually went to
[0:31:32 - 0:31:37] ▶
these churches. Right. It was just priests, priests and bishops for the most part, mostly bishops,
[0:31:37 - 0:31:42] ▶
only a handful of priests. So it was a front, it was a front for something. And, uh, when the
[0:31:42 - 0:31:49] ▶
assassination took place, another Bishop in Kentucky, a guy called Carl Stanley calls the FBI
[0:31:49 - 0:31:56] ▶
directly and says, you got to look at David Ferry and, and, um, um, very important name, Jack Martin,
[0:31:57 - 0:32:04] ▶
although it's probably not his real name as we turned out eventually. So you have these two guys,
[0:32:04 - 0:32:09] ▶
right? And they were both bishops under Carl Stanley, who was a renegade bishop who has a rap
[0:32:09 - 0:32:16] ▶
sheet a mile along and everything else, but he's running a church out of Kentucky. So Carl Stanley
[0:32:16 - 0:32:21] ▶
tells the FBI, look at these two guys in New Orleans, they're involved in the assassination.
[0:32:21 - 0:32:26] ▶
So the FBI, then it gets alerted and they kind of look at these guys. They talk to them. These
[0:32:26 - 0:32:32] ▶
people are really crazy. We don't, we can't make heads or tails of this. We're dropping it. And then
[0:32:32 - 0:32:37] ▶
later, um, it gets picked up in New Orleans by the DA, right? So the district attorney, Jim Garrison,
[0:32:37 - 0:32:43] ▶
says we're going to now investigate these guys because there is something fishy because Guy Bannister
[0:32:43 - 0:32:48] ▶
and Guy Bannister was very fishy, former FBI guy, long history in the FBI, uh, retires from the FBI,
[0:32:48 - 0:32:54] ▶
opens up this operation on camp street in New Orleans. The building isn't there anymore. I
[0:32:54 - 0:32:59] ▶
checked a little while ago, unfortunately, but he was operating out of this, out of this building
[0:32:59 - 0:33:03] ▶
and the, the fair play for Cuba leaflets that Lee Harvey Oswald was passing out,
[0:33:04 - 0:33:08] ▶
had the address of camp street, the same address. So they're trying to figure out what the connection
[0:33:08 - 0:33:13] ▶
is here with all these guys. Right. And Guy Bannister died in 64. So he died before
[0:33:13 - 0:33:18] ▶
Garrison could interview him. But Bannister and Jack Martin got into a fist fight.
[0:33:18 - 0:33:24] ▶
Over the assassination, Jack Martin threatened to tell the feds all the weird stuff that was going
[0:33:24 - 0:33:29] ▶
on and in his office. And so a Bannister pistol whipped him site. So he wound up in the hospital
[0:33:29 - 0:33:36] ▶
over it. So he gets interviewed by Garrison's people and David Ferry gets interviewed by Garrison's
[0:33:36 - 0:33:43] ▶
people. And David Ferry is a trip. This is a guy with alopecia. So he has no hair on his head.
[0:33:43 - 0:33:48] ▶
So he puts fake eyebrows and fake wigs. Right. So he had a fake red hair wig. He,
[0:33:48 - 0:33:54] ▶
red hair for some reason. And the funny thing is that
[0:33:54 - 0:33:56] ▶
E. Howard Hunt during the Watergate era used a fake red wig as his disguise when he was breaking
[0:33:58 - 0:34:05] ▶
into people's offices. It was like really funny that he was like, it was an homage to David Ferry.
[0:34:05 - 0:34:09] ▶
Mm-hmm . So, but anyway, so David Ferry is, you know, is considered to be involved in this thing.
[0:34:09 - 0:34:15] ▶
He commits suicide or is suicided under mysterious circumstances during the investigation into the
[0:34:15 - 0:34:21] ▶
Kennedy assassination. Jack Martin is the only one that survives. Okay. Years later, I'm interviewing a
[0:34:21 - 0:34:29] ▶
bishop in Florida who was a friend of Jack Martin. And so I wanted to talk to him about Jack Martin.
[0:34:30 - 0:34:38] ▶
And he gives me photographs of Jack Martin dressed as a priest. Right. And he says, Jack Martin was the
[0:34:38 - 0:34:44] ▶
guy you went to when you wanted to find out anything about anybody. He said, Martin traveled all over the
[0:34:44 - 0:34:50] ▶
country. This guy was everywhere. This guy, his resume was, he was unemployed. He was an alcoholic.
[0:34:50 - 0:34:58] ▶
He was possibly mentally unstable. He was in hospital various times for this. And yet he's the go-to guy
[0:34:58 - 0:35:05] ▶
to get background information on anybody. Right. Martin was incredible that way. And he stayed
[0:35:05 - 0:35:10] ▶
in his persona as a priest and bishop the rest of his life. So the photographs I have of him in the 1970s,
[0:35:10 - 0:35:17] ▶
years after the Kennedy assassination stuff that was going on in New Orleans. And he's in the, in the,
[0:35:17 - 0:35:23] ▶
the whole outfit, right? So you, wow. So you're saying that the Orthodox Catholic Church in the U.S.
[0:35:23 - 0:35:29] ▶
at the time was acting as some sort of front, possibly coordinating or helping with the JFK assassination?
[0:35:29 - 0:35:35] ▶
Absolutely. The American Orthodox Catholic Church legally came into being in 1965. So it's two years after the
[0:35:35 - 0:35:41] ▶
assassination legally in New York. However, it preexisted in different places around the country.
[0:35:41 - 0:35:47] ▶
And it got coalesced into one group in 65. And this is where it gets even stranger because in 1965,
[0:35:47 - 0:35:54] ▶
when all this is done, the leader of that church in the Bronx, in New York of all places,
[0:35:54 - 0:35:59] ▶
is a Ukrainian priest. He forms his own church as the American Orthodox Catholic Church in the Bronx.
[0:36:00 - 0:36:05] ▶
And then he starts demanding the other churches submit to a background check by the FBI
[0:36:06 - 0:36:11] ▶
to make sure that they're acceptable to him in the Bronx, in New York.
[0:36:12 - 0:36:16] ▶
And a lot of people just said, no, screw this. We're not going to do it.
[0:36:17 - 0:36:20] ▶
Carl Stanley, the guy who blurted out this thing that, you know, David Ferry was, you know,
[0:36:20 - 0:36:26] ▶
involved in the assassination, this weird bishop in Connecticut, he agrees, right? He goes from
[0:36:26 - 0:36:32] ▶
Connecticut to the Bronx to be anointed by this bishop, this Ukrainian bishop. He goes back to Kentucky
[0:36:32 - 0:36:39] ▶
and he's dead within a month.
[0:36:39 - 0:36:40] ▶
So I did more digging from a very personal reason because I knew this church intimately.
[0:36:42 - 0:36:48] ▶
I was involved with that church in 1968 to 69.
[0:36:48 - 0:36:52] ▶
How were you involved?
[0:36:52 - 0:36:54] ▶
Yeah. Well, that's a story.
[0:36:54 - 0:36:56] ▶
You know what they say, you know, the first rule of flight club.
[0:36:58 - 0:37:01] ▶
Well, this is the story that opens up everything for me, that makes me suddenly find out
[0:37:03 - 0:37:08] ▶
that reality is not what we think it is.
[0:37:08 - 0:37:11] ▶
To get back to, again, your original question.
[0:37:11 - 0:37:13] ▶
This is how long we go on one original question.
[0:37:13 - 0:37:15] ▶
And to get back to that question, reality isn't. Reality is really, really strange.
[0:37:16 - 0:37:20] ▶
And in 1968, I was still in high school.
[0:37:21 - 0:37:24] ▶
I was a senior in high school in the Bronx. And I had no intention of going to Vietnam.
[0:37:25 - 0:37:32] ▶
So a friend of mine and I, both with Eastern European backgrounds, decided, you know, one way
[0:37:32 - 0:37:38] ▶
to get out of this, and I have to admit, I came up with this idea, is that of all the deferments there
[0:37:38 - 0:37:45] ▶
are, and there weren't many, in 1968, Vietnam was at its height. The Tet Offensive was January 68.
[0:37:45 - 0:37:51] ▶
Right? So this is a very dangerous time. If you're a high school senior, you've got like two options.
[0:37:51 - 0:37:57] ▶
Right? Well, three. One is get out of the country, go to Sweden or Canada or something.
[0:37:57 - 0:38:01] ▶
One is to go into the university and stay in university as long as you possibly can,
[0:38:02 - 0:38:07] ▶
maintaining a high enough average that you can stay out of Vietnam. But even then,
[0:38:07 - 0:38:10] ▶
that's like four years. And after that, what are you going to do?
[0:38:10 - 0:38:12] ▶
And the other option is just go in the army. Right? Say, screw it. I'm, you know, I'm in the army.
[0:38:13 - 0:38:19] ▶
So those are the three options. But there was a fourth.
[0:38:19 - 0:38:21] ▶
And the fourth was, the US government would not force you to join the military if you were a priest
[0:38:21 - 0:38:31] ▶
in a church of some kind, if you were a minister. That was the 4D deferment, I believe. And I said
[0:38:31 - 0:38:39] ▶
to my friend, I said, my friend had a closet full of weird religious paraphernalia because he belonged
[0:38:39 - 0:38:45] ▶
to something called the Third Order Franciscans, which is a kind of lay order. It's religious, but
[0:38:45 - 0:38:51] ▶
not, you're not really actually part of a monastic order. It's somewhere in between. And, but he, he
[0:38:51 - 0:38:58] ▶
loved all that stuff. So he had, you know, chalices, he had ciboria, he had all the, the fancy implements
[0:38:58 - 0:39:05] ▶
and stuff. His parents were divorced. So he played one parent off the other. So he would get money from
[0:39:05 - 0:39:10] ▶
one money from the other. He would buy all this stuff. Right? So he had chasuples, he had cassocks.
[0:39:10 - 0:39:16] ▶
He had all the stuff that you really needed as a Catholic priest. He could have opened a Catholic
[0:39:16 - 0:39:20] ▶
church with all the stuff he had without exaggeration. So I said, you have all this stuff.
[0:39:20 - 0:39:25] ▶
All we have to do is incorporate as a church and we're home free. That's all we have to do. Then
[0:39:26 - 0:39:30] ▶
we're priests and screw it. Right? So he said, well, that sounds doable, right? The problem was we were
[0:39:30 - 0:39:37] ▶
under 18 at the time. We couldn't sign legal documents and we couldn't sign a corporation
[0:39:37 - 0:39:41] ▶
document. I think in New York, you had to be 21. So we had to find people to sign for us,
[0:39:41 - 0:39:45] ▶
but we eventually did. And we incorporated the autocephalist Slavonic Orthodox Church of North
[0:39:45 - 0:39:50] ▶
and South America incorporated, which was just him and me. And one guy that we knew, an older guy that
[0:39:50 - 0:39:58] ▶
we, uh, we claimed was our archbishop. Right? So we became like priests in this church and that was
[0:39:58 - 0:40:04] ▶
going to be our function. So we decided in order to make this even realer, if that's a word, we would
[0:40:04 - 0:40:10] ▶
get dressed in all this weird stuff, Orthodox stuff. See Catholic stuff, the Catholics had a
[0:40:10 - 0:40:15] ▶
stranglehold on being Catholic, but in the Orthodox world, there's just hundreds of Orthodox churches
[0:40:15 - 0:40:20] ▶
because they're national churches. So you have Greek Orthodox churches, Russian Orthodox, Serbian,
[0:40:21 - 0:40:26] ▶
et cetera, et cetera. There was no Czechoslovak Orthodox church. So that was our background. So I said,
[0:40:26 - 0:40:33] ▶
this is cool. We'll make a Czechoslovak Orthodox. It just fell into place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[0:40:33 - 0:40:37] ▶
So we do all this. It falls into place. We're done. We got it. We have the weird hats with the
[0:40:37 - 0:40:41] ▶
veils. We have crosses and stuff and, you know, and we look genuine, right? I mean, for two 17 year
[0:40:41 - 0:40:47] ▶
olds, we did, you know, which was like a Halloween costume, right? But we kind of pulled it off. Yeah.
[0:40:47 - 0:40:53] ▶
And, uh, then we decided we were going to gate crash the funeral for Bobby Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy
[0:40:53 - 0:41:00] ▶
had just been assassinated. It was June 68. Uh, it was a big blow to me. I thought Bobby was going
[0:41:00 - 0:41:05] ▶
to be our way of getting out of Vietnam, the end of some of the racial stuff that was going on.
[0:41:05 - 0:41:09] ▶
So this was like a major blow. Another Kennedy assassinated, right? My friend had different
[0:41:09 - 0:41:15] ▶
ideas to him. This was an opportunity. He says, they're going to have the funeral in New York City
[0:41:15 - 0:41:20] ▶
at St. Patrick's Cathedral. We know the people at St. Patrick's. Why don't we just go down there
[0:41:20 - 0:41:26] ▶
during the funeral and just gate crash it, you know? And I said, that doesn't, they're going to
[0:41:26 - 0:41:32] ▶
have the tightest security New York has ever known, if not the country, another Kennedy assassinated
[0:41:32 - 0:41:38] ▶
and the president's going to be there and the senators and the congressman and the cabinet and
[0:41:38 - 0:41:43] ▶
God knows who else, they're all going to be in this room. I don't think so. He says, no, let's,
[0:41:43 - 0:41:47] ▶
let's, let's just try it. So we got on the subway the night before and we go down and we talked to
[0:41:47 - 0:41:52] ▶
some guy in there and you know, we're in our full regalia and he says, oh, uh, okay. Um,
[0:41:52 - 0:41:58] ▶
I don't know. Uh, you're not on the list, but you know, come by and then if we can get you in,
[0:41:58 - 0:42:03] ▶
we'll get you in something like that. So we say, okay, cool. We're two 17 year olds.
[0:42:03 - 0:42:07] ▶
Does this make any freaking sense at all? No, it doesn't at all. Yeah, no. So they say, okay. So
[0:42:08 - 0:42:14] ▶
we say, fine, we're doing it. Right. So we go into the church proper. The casket is already there.
[0:42:15 - 0:42:20] ▶
Bobby is in St. Patrick's Saturday night. So we go up to it and, you know, do appropriately
[0:42:20 - 0:42:26] ▶
religious things. And in the pew, the only people in the church at the time is Rose Kennedy and, uh,
[0:42:26 - 0:42:32] ▶
Jackie Onassis. So they're there praying and we're looking at them and, you know, and they're looking
[0:42:33 - 0:42:38] ▶
at us like, who are all these people? Right. So we do this thing and we just quietly leave.
[0:42:38 - 0:42:42] ▶
So the next day, Sunday, uh, my friend says, we're going to do this. Right. I said,
[0:42:43 - 0:42:49] ▶
we can give it a shot. You know, we rent a limo and we rent this limo and we take it from the Bronx
[0:42:49 - 0:42:57] ▶
to St. Patrick's. It's really weird what you can get away with in a limo. Right. The limo pulls up to
[0:42:57 - 0:43:05] ▶
the side entrance of the church where all the celebrities are getting out and we're in the limo.
[0:43:05 - 0:43:10] ▶
So we must belong. Right. The driver opens up the door. We get out and all this stuff that we're wearing.
[0:43:10 - 0:43:15] ▶
Um, and the secret service runs right up to us. And we had made a decision, my friend and I,
[0:43:15 - 0:43:23] ▶
that he would not speak because he's like a foreign speaking person. And I would do all the talking
[0:43:23 - 0:43:28] ▶
because I'm a fast talker, as you can possibly realize now, but I had to do it in a foreign
[0:43:28 - 0:43:33] ▶
accident. Right. Because we had to be foreign dignitaries. So the secret service agent walks
[0:43:33 - 0:43:37] ▶
up to us and he says, Russian Orthodox representatives. And I say, no, Slavonic Orthodox representatives.
[0:43:37 - 0:43:44] ▶
And he says, oh, okay, follow me. And he leads us into the church, leads us into the sanctuary
[0:43:44 - 0:43:51] ▶
where all the other religious dignitaries are sitting on the other side of the communion rail.
[0:43:51 - 0:43:56] ▶
If you're Catholics, any of you listening, you know, you don't go on the other side of the communion rail,
[0:43:56 - 0:44:00] ▶
unless you're a priest or an altar boy or something, you have some particular religious
[0:44:00 - 0:44:04] ▶
sacerdotal reason to be there. But we're, we're stuck right in the, right in the front. Right.
[0:44:04 - 0:44:10] ▶
My friend on one side and me on the other, we're just staring at each other. We're in there and all
[0:44:10 - 0:44:14] ▶
these bishops and clergy and other Orthodox bishops are there. So it's freaking us out. Right. But we're
[0:44:14 - 0:44:20] ▶
brassing it out. We think, well, we're here, you know, no, one's going to believe this story.
[0:44:20 - 0:44:24] ▶
And if I had been anybody else, if I had been a different person, I could have walked in there with
[0:44:24 - 0:44:31] ▶
a device. You know what I mean? I would have taken out the American leadership was in that room,
[0:44:32 - 0:44:38] ▶
not just the religious leadership. It's an incredible failure of security that this was
[0:44:38 - 0:44:44] ▶
allowed to happen. I mean, it's incredibly wrong. And yet we just brass it out like we belong there.
[0:44:44 - 0:44:49] ▶
Mm-hmm . . . So we did do that. You know, we, we were there for the whole service. Um,
[0:44:49 - 0:44:54] ▶
and then because we're the last ones in, we were the first ones out. So we were supposed to lead
[0:44:54 - 0:44:58] ▶
the procession out of the cathedral. Lead it. No one knew who the hell we were. The TV cameras are
[0:44:58 - 0:45:05] ▶
pointing at us. The Kliegelites are all over us. No one knows who to, how to identify us.
[0:45:05 - 0:45:09] ▶
So there's probably video of you leading a funeral procession for Bobby Kennedy.
[0:45:09 - 0:45:13] ▶
I've been looking at this for it for a long time. There's a very bad, very blurry video.
[0:45:13 - 0:45:19] ▶
You would think there would be some perfect video of that, but there isn't.
[0:45:20 - 0:45:23] ▶
That's a Forrest Gump moment, if I've ever . . .
[0:45:23 - 0:45:25] ▶
Yeah. But there is. And I just got, uh, just a couple of days ago,
[0:45:28 - 0:45:33] ▶
a still that somebody got of the procession and the two of us are there. So we, I know now,
[0:45:33 - 0:45:39] ▶
you know, this tangible evidence that exists. It's blurry, but it's us.
[0:45:39 - 0:45:43] ▶
I mean, you could look and you can see these guys don't belong where they are.
[0:45:43 - 0:45:47] ▶
So we led the procession out. It's another story. But how great was that? Because I had
[0:45:47 - 0:45:51] ▶
Andy Williams behind me singing the Battle Hymn of the Republic. I had Leonard Bernstein conducting
[0:45:51 - 0:45:56] ▶
the Hallelujah chorus from Handel's Messiah, right? As the doors open on Rockefeller Center
[0:45:56 - 0:46:02] ▶
and Atlas holding up the world. And this is in June, 68. I'm supposed to graduate high school that month.
[0:46:02 - 0:46:08] ▶
Right. And it's like, who needs graduation, man? This is cool. This is it, you know?
[0:46:08 - 0:46:12] ▶
But we also know we're in deep shit. If somebody stops us, you know, it's all over. So we know how
[0:46:12 - 0:46:18] ▶
to get out of the church. There's an underground kind of a passageway. It's not really that secret,
[0:46:18 - 0:46:24] ▶
but unless you know, you know, you won't know it. So we decided to go out that way. And as we're going
[0:46:24 - 0:46:29] ▶
out that way, of course, we run into Rose Kennedy and Jackie again, who were also trying to go out that
[0:46:29 - 0:46:33] ▶
same way. So we get out, but we take the subway back. We didn't keep the limo too expensive.
[0:46:33 - 0:46:38] ▶
And then we got back to the Bronx and went back to school the next day, you know, with teachers
[0:46:39 - 0:46:45] ▶
and students looking at us and, you know, saying, nah, can't be right. So we managed this. But the
[0:46:45 - 0:46:53] ▶
thing is, the reason I'm telling you this story is because on our way out, we bump into guys from
[0:46:53 - 0:46:59] ▶
the American Orthodox Catholic Church. The intelligence front.
[0:46:59 - 0:47:02] ▶
The intelligence front. They're outside. They couldn't get in. We did.
[0:47:02 - 0:47:05] ▶
They're handing us this sort of brochure. They're saying, come and see us. Right. And so we're looking
[0:47:07 - 0:47:12] ▶
at each other and we said, why not? We never heard of this place. It's near the Bronx Zoo,
[0:47:12 - 0:47:16] ▶
if that means anything. So let's go and take a look. And we took a look and we wound up joining,
[0:47:16 - 0:47:20] ▶
right? Because we needed, we were two 17 year olds, you know, my friend turned 18 that month. So we needed
[0:47:20 - 0:47:27] ▶
to know that we're going to get out of the selective service thing out of the draft.
[0:47:27 - 0:47:30] ▶
Right. And so one thing led to another and we did, but the, um, there was a quid pro quo for this.
[0:47:30 - 0:47:38] ▶
So, uh, I, I turned 18 at a different time than my friend did. So he, he got his clearance before I did.
[0:47:39 - 0:47:46] ▶
Right. So I was brought to the, um, selective service board, the headquarters in New York city
[0:47:46 - 0:47:51] ▶
to talk to the head of selective service. Mm-hmm .
[0:47:51 - 0:47:53] ▶
It was a really strange guy. I'll never forget him. Um, he wore these, you know, elbow patches,
[0:47:53 - 0:47:59] ▶
tweet jacket kind of guy. Yeah.
[0:47:59 - 0:48:01] ▶
Looking like an intelligence guy, looking like Alan Dulles kind of, you know, and he said, okay, no problem.
[0:48:01 - 0:48:06] ▶
You know, uh, we're going to give you the thing unless you want to be a chaplain in Vietnam,
[0:48:06 - 0:48:11] ▶
we can arrange that making a little joke. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[0:48:11 - 0:48:14] ▶
He says, this is the thing though. He says, the Russians have been moving agents into the United
[0:48:14 - 0:48:21] ▶
States through the Orthodox churches. Keep an eye out. Mm.
[0:48:21 - 0:48:26] ▶
You let us know when you see one coming through because you'll, you know who's, who's real and
[0:48:26 - 0:48:31] ▶
who isn't. Right. You keep an eye out and just let us know. That's all. And you're, you're cool.
[0:48:31 - 0:48:36] ▶
So they were trying to basically operationalize you somewhat like.
[0:48:38 - 0:48:41] ▶
Well, the church itself, as I found out later, I found out years and years later. I mean, I always
[0:48:41 - 0:48:45] ▶
suspected because I know I saw weird shit going on in that church from the beginning, but I found out
[0:48:45 - 0:48:52] ▶
years later going through Jim Garrison's files. He had finally, they finally released his, his
[0:48:52 - 0:48:57] ▶
correspondence. And when I got through his correspondence and I finally saw it, I found
[0:48:57 - 0:49:02] ▶
church stationary that I had typed on back in the day. Wild.
[0:49:02 - 0:49:06] ▶
Where the leader of the church, a guy called Propheta, was writing letters to Jim Garrison saying,
[0:49:06 - 0:49:12] ▶
when you're finished with Jack Martin, can you send him back to us? Right? So it's there. It's in
[0:49:12 - 0:49:18] ▶
print. It's in the files. Well, also a wild synchronicity that you end up
[0:49:18 - 0:49:22] ▶
researching the JFK assassination. And you had been a part of this American Orthodox Catholic
[0:49:22 - 0:49:28] ▶
church. That was this intelligence front, which had something to do with the JFK assassination.
[0:49:28 - 0:49:33] ▶
That is a time loop. If I've ever seen one, that doesn't make any freaking sense.
[0:49:33 - 0:49:36] ▶
It doesn't make any sense. I was 17. How the hell did we wind up in that position?
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So they say when you're, you know, getting briefed, like, hey, just look out for Russian spies.
[0:50:50 - 0:50:55] ▶
Um, how, how much more involvement do you have with the church itself? And do you see them,
[0:50:56 - 0:51:01] ▶
you know, do anything else that's kind of suspicious or interesting on the intelligence front?
[0:51:01 - 0:51:06] ▶
When we were researching for our cover story as Orthodox priests, we had a lot of friends
[0:51:06 - 0:51:13] ▶
in the, in two different Orthodox churches. One was the Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia.
[0:51:13 - 0:51:18] ▶
This is important because it shows up again in New Orleans because all those Russians around Lee
[0:51:19 - 0:51:26] ▶
Oswald and Marina, all, all the people he was being introduced to, okay, were members of the Russian
[0:51:26 - 0:51:32] ▶
Orthodox Church outside Russia. These were the Russian Orthodox who were anti-communist. They fled, uh,
[0:51:32 - 0:51:38] ▶
Moscow during the revolution, uh, the Russian Revolution in seven, 1917. They fled to Paris first,
[0:51:38 - 0:51:46] ▶
and then they opened up this operation in New York. So these are Romanovs, right? And they brought all
[0:51:46 - 0:51:51] ▶
their treasure with them and they brought a lot of priests and bishops and stuff and they established
[0:51:51 - 0:51:55] ▶
this church on the Upper East Side in Manhattan on Park Avenue and 93rd Street. And we would go in there
[0:51:55 - 0:52:01] ▶
all the time, right? This was like Dr. Zhivago territory. It was pure Russia. I mean, you were in
[0:52:01 - 0:52:06] ▶
Russia when you're on in those premises, right? So there was a high school there. We befriended the
[0:52:06 - 0:52:11] ▶
principal of the high school. So we would, you know, we would know a lot of background stuff of what was
[0:52:11 - 0:52:15] ▶
going on until the other Russians found out that he was talking to us, uh, in which case they pushed
[0:52:15 - 0:52:23] ▶
him down an elevator shaft and broke his legs. We visited him in the hospital and he says,
[0:52:23 - 0:52:27] ▶
don't come back again. You know, that was brother Victor, another whole story. The other church was
[0:52:27 - 0:52:33] ▶
the one on 97th Street and 5th, and that was the Russian church that owed allegiance to Moscow.
[0:52:33 - 0:52:39] ▶
That's the one they were running agents through. Okay. We would go there once in a while just to hang out
[0:52:39 - 0:52:44] ▶
and watch them because they had a whole different way of doing the liturgy. It was kind of a different
[0:52:44 - 0:52:48] ▶
setup. And we would just sit there and watch them. And we would know when a young priest showed up from
[0:52:48 - 0:52:54] ▶
the old country and, uh, there's one particular thing you're taught during ordination. That's a kind
[0:52:54 - 0:53:03] ▶
of a secret prayer that is responsible for changing the bread and wine into the body and blood, right?
[0:53:03 - 0:53:09] ▶
Which is the whole transubstantiation thing that we learned about in Catholic school.
[0:53:09 - 0:53:12] ▶
Well, in the Orthodox church, it's almost the same, kind of similar. But there's a prayer and a gesture
[0:53:12 - 0:53:18] ▶
that you do to make this change official, to call down the forces to make this happen. They don't know it
[0:53:18 - 0:53:26] ▶
because they didn't go through the actual real training. They went through training to be spies,
[0:53:27 - 0:53:33] ▶
and they got enough training to pass as Orthodox priests, but they didn't get everything quite
[0:53:33 - 0:53:37] ▶
often. Sometimes the people in Moscow cleverly kept that back a little bit. And that was a signal
[0:53:37 - 0:53:44] ▶
to the guys back in the States or abroad, wherever, that the person they were sending over was not to
[0:53:44 - 0:53:49] ▶
be trusted, right? He was KGB. So you had priests who were KGB. Now, if you ever watched, there was
[0:53:49 - 0:53:56] ▶
American television series called the Americans. It was about a husband and wife, deep sleeper agents
[0:53:56 - 0:54:03] ▶
in the United States during that time. The very last season, for those of you who can go back and
[0:54:03 - 0:54:09] ▶
take a look, featured finally, because I watched that thing from beginning to end, waiting for this,
[0:54:09 - 0:54:14] ▶
the final season showed the priests who were operating as KGB, who were KGB agents operating as priests.
[0:54:14 - 0:54:19] ▶
And they were running operations in New York. And so they finally talked about it. But for us,
[0:54:19 - 0:54:24] ▶
that was a big deal. And that basically kept me out of Vietnam also, right? So this was like an
[0:54:24 - 0:54:30] ▶
important aspect of all of this, was the fact that all of this was going on. Now, this is all
[0:54:30 - 0:54:36] ▶
happening in 1968, right? I'm still 18. By that time, I'm 18 years old. So now, I mean, I'm in the
[0:54:36 - 0:54:42] ▶
middle of all of this stuff. But I don't know what's related to the Kennedy assassination at all. I have
[0:54:42 - 0:54:47] ▶
no clue. But I know there's intelligence operations going on. I know this guy is running ops because
[0:54:47 - 0:54:51] ▶
he was. The only people who ever showed up were FBI, CIA types, right? And he bragged about it,
[0:54:51 - 0:54:57] ▶
the bishop who ran the church, Propheta. He was very proud of the fact. And he constantly said
[0:54:57 - 0:55:05] ▶
that his people were vetted by J. Edgar Hoover himself. That's how the vetting was going on.
[0:55:05 - 0:55:11] ▶
That's why he called people back to have them vetted. Hoover himself would approve or disapprove his
[0:55:11 - 0:55:17] ▶
selection of priests and bishops. So this was obviously for what reason, right? And it'd be for
[0:55:17 - 0:55:24] ▶
an intelligence operation. So we had strange guys coming in from all over the world to become bishops.
[0:55:24 - 0:55:28] ▶
People didn't even know how to genuflect or make the sign of the cross, right? And we're making these
[0:55:29 - 0:55:33] ▶
guys bishops, giving them papers and sending them back, photographing the ritual so it looks legit.
[0:55:33 - 0:55:37] ▶
So this was happening all the time. So we had guys from Italy at one point. So the Italian consulate sent
[0:55:38 - 0:55:44] ▶
people to observe this one guy becoming a bishop and we're sending him back. But the weirdest one was
[0:55:44 - 0:55:50] ▶
during the Biafra crisis in Nigeria. Also in the sixties, there was a civil war going on in Nigeria.
[0:55:50 - 0:55:56] ▶
So you had the Biafrans who were like the Christian element fighting against a Muslim group in Nigeria.
[0:55:57 - 0:56:05] ▶
So they were looking for independence from Nigeria. So the Nigerians sent us this guy.
[0:56:05 - 0:56:12] ▶
I'll never forget him because I had to go to the airport to pick him up. His name was the Holy
[0:56:12 - 0:56:18] ▶
Prophet Alouya. That was his name. H.P. Alouya. Holy Prophet H.P. I picked him up at the airport in,
[0:56:18 - 0:56:25] ▶
excuse me, in all kinds of African garb, right? So as he would be as an African. So I pick him up at
[0:56:26 - 0:56:32] ▶
the airport. We take the limo, I guess, back to the Bronx. And he's going on about how happy he is
[0:56:32 - 0:56:41] ▶
and all the rest of it to be a member of this organization. And we consecrate him a bishop.
[0:56:41 - 0:56:47] ▶
He's now Bishop Holy Prophet Alouya. And the Nigerian embassy is there. The Nigerian consulate,
[0:56:47 - 0:56:53] ▶
rather, in New York is there. It's the Nigerian side, not the Biafran side, not the Christian side.
[0:56:53 - 0:57:00] ▶
It's the other side, the nationalist side, the federal side that want him as a bishop,
[0:57:00 - 0:57:05] ▶
as a Christian bishop, to convince other Nigerians in the Christian side to stay with Nigeria
[0:57:05 - 0:57:11] ▶
as against Biafra. This was a ploy in the Civil War. The Civil War was raging when we did this.
[0:57:11 - 0:57:17] ▶
And we put him back on the plane the next day. He goes back to Nigeria. God knows what happened to
[0:57:17 - 0:57:21] ▶
him after that. We don't know. Never heard from him again.
[0:57:21 - 0:57:23] ▶
This is fascinating. And it's just touching off a whole life for you of catching the attention of
[0:57:23 - 0:57:30] ▶
intelligence agencies. By accident.
[0:57:30 - 0:57:32] ▶
By accident. And through pure serendipity. And I want to make that clear to any
[0:57:32 - 0:57:37] ▶
conspiratorial audience members, because I think that is emblematic, actually, of your life is
[0:57:37 - 0:57:41] ▶
it seems like you kind of try to you seek kind of sacred truth. And I think at times that sacred
[0:57:42 - 0:57:50] ▶
truth is, you know, incidental to knowledge that might be held by, you know, government organizations.
[0:57:50 - 0:57:56] ▶
And then they get very interested in you. Right.
[0:57:56 - 0:57:58] ▶
Um, uh, you started this story off by saying first rule of Fight Club.
[0:57:58 - 0:58:04] ▶
Yeah. And then you also said that this story was sort of indicative for you of just how trippy reality
[0:58:04 - 0:58:10] ▶
is, how there's something else going on. Why is that for you? And why, how do you think the Fight Club
[0:58:10 - 0:58:16] ▶
analogy relates to this? Yeah. Good question, because I'm glad you picked up on that. Um,
[0:58:16 - 0:58:21] ▶
I barely graduated high school. Uh, I came from a kind of a broken home situation. So there's a lot
[0:58:24 - 0:58:30] ▶
of weirdness in my family. We had traveled around a lot, uh, here and there. Strange things happened
[0:58:30 - 0:58:35] ▶
to us. And for, for a while in 1965, 66, um, I was fascinated with occultism in general, at least what
[0:58:35 - 0:58:42] ▶
we knew of it at the time, which was not much. And so, uh, Ouija board stuff, seances, that kind of
[0:58:42 - 0:58:48] ▶
thing. So I was like totally into it. And it was the source of paranormal phenomenon. We actually had
[0:58:48 - 0:58:55] ▶
paranormal phenomenon. We were kids. Uh, I was 15 years old. I had a brother and sister who were younger.
[0:58:55 - 0:59:00] ▶
What would happen? You know, table levitation, that kind of the table rising, table tapping
[0:59:00 - 0:59:05] ▶
phenomenon that the Victorians were so proud of. Yeah. So we had that, we had tables rising in the
[0:59:05 - 0:59:11] ▶
air, slamming down. We had knocks on the table, all of that stuff. And I'm going to high school
[0:59:11 - 0:59:15] ▶
in the Bronx, you know, taking science classes. And I know that I can't talk about this to anybody,
[0:59:16 - 0:59:22] ▶
right? Because this is against the, you know, they would tell me I was crazy or imagining it and,
[0:59:22 - 0:59:26] ▶
uh, you know, questioning my sanity or whatever. And, but I, I know what I saw, right? So these things
[0:59:27 - 0:59:33] ▶
would happen, but only in the beginning. And this is like a key element of how this works, right?
[0:59:33 - 0:59:38] ▶
This weird stuff will happen in the beginning because that sucks you right in.
[0:59:38 - 0:59:41] ▶
And once that happens, you cannot deny the evidence of your senses. Um, there's nobody playing a hoax in
[0:59:42 - 0:59:50] ▶
that room because it's just your family. They don't have, believe me, the wherewithal to carry on a
[0:59:50 - 0:59:54] ▶
hoax like that. It was a little, little too, you know, elaborate and
[0:59:54 - 0:59:57] ▶
And that happens. And what happened after that was, uh, members of my family became sort of
[0:59:57 - 1:00:06] ▶
entranced with this process to the point where the phenomenon never really mattered much anymore.
[1:00:06 - 1:00:12] ▶
It was the contact with spirits. It was a contact with the other side that became an overriding thing.
[1:00:12 - 1:00:18] ▶
And that drained me completely. That was completely something that really bothered me a great deal
[1:00:18 - 1:00:23] ▶
because it was going nowhere. It was nonsense. At one point we were told there was going to be an
[1:00:23 - 1:00:27] ▶
aboriginal uprising in Australia outside of Perth. It was very specific. And we thought, oh my God,
[1:00:27 - 1:00:35] ▶
this is going to happen. People are going to die. So my mother and I, you were told by the spirits,
[1:00:35 - 1:00:40] ▶
spirits in detail and sort of a download or auditory. Did you hear it?
[1:00:40 - 1:00:44] ▶
Ouija board. Ouija board. Whoa.
[1:00:44 - 1:00:46] ▶
Ouija board. Letter by letter. This is how draining this, this is, right? So we have all this information
[1:00:46 - 1:00:54] ▶
my mother and I, and we go to the consulate, the Australian consulate in New York to warn them of
[1:00:54 - 1:01:01] ▶
this. That's how off the charts insane it becomes. Cause they're looking at us like, don't think so.
[1:01:01 - 1:01:08] ▶
I really don't think so, but thanks for coming in. Uh huh.
[1:01:09 - 1:01:12] ▶
Uh huh. So I knew pretty much at that moment, if not before really, because I was hesitant to do all
[1:01:12 - 1:01:19] ▶
this, that there was something totally wrong that was taking place here. Right. That the phenomenon in
[1:01:19 - 1:01:24] ▶
the beginning is, is the, is the hook, right. And the hook is real, but then you make a lot of
[1:01:24 - 1:01:32] ▶
assumptions about what's behind the curtain. Right. And so you follow that and wherever they lead,
[1:01:32 - 1:01:37] ▶
you follow. And that's a serious mistake. Yes. Right. But pay attention to it anyway. If you're
[1:01:37 - 1:01:43] ▶
there, pay attention to it, make note because this may come in handy later. If nothing else to reassure
[1:01:43 - 1:01:49] ▶
you that you're not going crazy, that this stuff does happen, but that it means something else. It
[1:01:49 - 1:01:54] ▶
doesn't mean what you think it is that you're putting a lot into this more than you're getting.
[1:01:54 - 1:02:00] ▶
You're putting a lot of attention. You're giving it information. You're feeding it and you're getting a
[1:02:00 - 1:02:05] ▶
feedback from what you're feeding it. Right. This is a dangerous field for some people. Um, you can
[1:02:05 - 1:02:12] ▶
go off the deep end for, if you're already weak, if you're already kind of, you don't have critical
[1:02:12 - 1:02:18] ▶
thinking ability. Um, you don't have a lot of, you know, psychological strength, let's say. Yeah. From
[1:02:18 - 1:02:24] ▶
that point of view, this can lead you astray easily. Yeah. It leads people astray a lot. The, these are
[1:02:24 - 1:02:29] ▶
fancies fantasies, right? And the fantasies are really powerful and really dangerous and fantasies can
[1:02:29 - 1:02:35] ▶
sometimes become ideologies. And when they become ideologies, they take on another power because they
[1:02:35 - 1:02:40] ▶
seem like they're real too, more real than the fantasy because they involve real people, real events,
[1:02:40 - 1:02:45] ▶
real resources. So then you're, you're involved in this thing that I became fascinated with when I
[1:02:45 - 1:02:51] ▶
started writing Sinister Forces. How do these fantasies influence our actual everyday lives,
[1:02:51 - 1:02:58] ▶
even if we don't believe in the fantastic, but we're in, we swim in a sea of fantasies,
[1:02:58 - 1:03:03] ▶
of ideologies, of people insisting certain things are true when they're not, you know, so,
[1:03:03 - 1:03:08] ▶
and you, and you believe and trust these people, right? For whatever reason. And this is what is,
[1:03:08 - 1:03:14] ▶
is really dangerous. So I, when I started to shift my studies away from, um, sort of Ouija board style
[1:03:14 - 1:03:22] ▶
occultism, I wanted to know there was something darker, there's something deeper. Is there a way to
[1:03:22 - 1:03:27] ▶
exert control and not be controlled because being controlled to me was, was a disaster that I
[1:03:27 - 1:03:34] ▶
witnessed. So how can I then exert control over this phenomenon? Is it possible? And that sort of led
[1:03:34 - 1:03:40] ▶
me down this, this path that I've been on since that time, since 1965, roughly until this time was
[1:03:40 - 1:03:47] ▶
to find out how do you exert control over it and exerting control does not always mean what you think
[1:03:47 - 1:03:52] ▶
it means, you know, like the sorcerer's apprentice, you know, Mickey mouse with the, the, the, the,
[1:03:52 - 1:03:58] ▶
the, the mops and the buckets. If you remember the first opening scene of Fantasia, which why would
[1:03:58 - 1:04:03] ▶
you, but anyway, this is a famous, uh, it's a famous trope, right? The sorcerer's apprentice,
[1:04:03 - 1:04:08] ▶
the sorcerer's apprentice is out of touch, really thinks they understand how it works because they've
[1:04:08 - 1:04:13] ▶
watched the sorcerer and now they're doing the same thing and they cannot control it. It goes out of
[1:04:13 - 1:04:17] ▶
control completely. So the sorcerer has to come in and fix it. Right. So this is, this is the problem
[1:04:17 - 1:04:23] ▶
that, that we face. The idea of control is not always what we think it is. The control sometimes
[1:04:23 - 1:04:28] ▶
starts internally. You have to build up an internal system of, of control first, right? And that can
[1:04:28 - 1:04:34] ▶
only happen when you have an internal system of understanding, when you really know what's going on,
[1:04:34 - 1:04:38] ▶
when you know yourself. Um, and that doesn't mean in the sort of hippies, sixties, know yourself kind of
[1:04:38 - 1:04:46] ▶
thing. It means something a little darker, maybe a little deeper, certainly, but to really know,
[1:04:46 - 1:04:49] ▶
um, the way you interact with the outside world, that point of tangents between yourself and the
[1:04:50 - 1:04:58] ▶
outside world, that's where the sort of matrix is talking about reality to go back to your, again,
[1:04:58 - 1:05:04] ▶
original question, the idea of reality. What is it as Robin Williams said, reality, what a concept.
[1:05:04 - 1:05:10] ▶
Yeah, it is a malleable concept for sure. And we all have different versions of it. You have to
[1:05:10 - 1:05:15] ▶
figure out what your version of it is and, and, and kind of go from there slowly, step by step.
[1:05:15 - 1:05:21] ▶
I almost think control is almost a misnomer too. Like having some sort of deliberate intention
[1:05:21 - 1:05:26] ▶
feels like of utmost importance, but there are all these paradoxes, like probably in order to
[1:05:27 - 1:05:33] ▶
control, you need to like be okay losing control at the same time, having faith in something higher.
[1:05:34 - 1:05:39] ▶
I think of control, you know, there's obviously the proverbial kind of left hand path and occultism,
[1:05:40 - 1:05:46] ▶
right. Or the idea of sort of storming heaven or something, you know, with, with, you know,
[1:05:46 - 1:05:50] ▶
you know, and you write about this and, uh, your book about celestial ascent traditions, you know,
[1:05:51 - 1:05:56] ▶
a stairway to heaven. And so, um, yeah, it's, uh, it's like, it feels like this, like really hard
[1:05:56 - 1:06:04] ▶
art form that is, uh, you know, you've touched on it. Exactly. It's an art form. Yeah. It's not a science.
[1:06:04 - 1:06:10] ▶
Not exactly. Not yet. Um, Alistair Crowley famously said magic is the science and art of causing change
[1:06:11 - 1:06:19] ▶
to occur in conformity with will. It's a pretty good introductory statement. Um, it is an art. You
[1:06:19 - 1:06:26] ▶
begin to realize it is an art that which motivates art, that which creates art, that feeling, that
[1:06:26 - 1:06:32] ▶
artistic expression, that's closer to what this is than science, but science has an input to it, right?
[1:06:32 - 1:06:39] ▶
The more we understand about the artistic impulse, the more we can kind of isolate the scientific
[1:06:39 - 1:06:43] ▶
parts of it, understand how they work. If we're talking about consciousness, we are now in that
[1:06:43 - 1:06:49] ▶
murky territory where art and science kind of mix. And it may be that art will have us have more to
[1:06:49 - 1:06:53] ▶
tell us about how consciousness works than science right now. Right. Because we're kind of limited into
[1:06:53 - 1:07:00] ▶
repeatability with science. Science depends upon repeatability of an experiment. And this is what's
[1:07:01 - 1:07:09] ▶
destroyed a lot of people in the occult field, um, broadly speaking, especially the mediums, the
[1:07:09 - 1:07:16] ▶
the clairvoyance, the people who claim to predict the future and things like that. Once they've done
[1:07:16 - 1:07:22] ▶
it a few times, like the table knocking that I experienced, you know, you have that a few times,
[1:07:22 - 1:07:26] ▶
people want you to repeat it and you can't under those circumstances. Quite often it's really difficult
[1:07:26 - 1:07:33] ▶
to do, right? So you make up, you fake it. And that's the part where you lose your soul to
[1:07:33 - 1:07:39] ▶
this whole process where you try to keep people interested. You try to keep the public on your
[1:07:39 - 1:07:44] ▶
side. You try to prove that your initial experience was real. So you fake another experience, hoping
[1:07:44 - 1:07:50] ▶
nobody will notice. And that's, that's where you cross the line. Yeah, exactly. You have to be willing
[1:07:50 - 1:07:57] ▶
to understand that your experience is possibly non-repeatable, not under scientific laboratory
[1:07:57 - 1:08:03] ▶
conditions. Difficult to do, right? You get like some statistical anomalies with the remote viewers
[1:08:03 - 1:08:10] ▶
and with all those guys at the SRI and all, you know, all those guys who were testing all of this,
[1:08:10 - 1:08:15] ▶
you'll get statistical, you know, improvements. You got Ingo Swann who did tremendous work, uh, in that
[1:08:15 - 1:08:20] ▶
area. Right. But it's still, when you force somebody to do something, unless they're really masters of it
[1:08:20 - 1:08:26] ▶
already, it's not going to happen. Yeah. It feels like unless something's truly kind of heart-centered,
[1:08:26 - 1:08:32] ▶
there's always some sort of mean reversion or rebound effect. If you look at all the random event
[1:08:32 - 1:08:36] ▶
generators or remote viewing or any of these things, you end up with all these kind of, you know,
[1:08:36 - 1:08:40] ▶
infighting dynamics of the participants. You know, you think they're like the most conscious people,
[1:08:40 - 1:08:45] ▶
but they're kind of like the most unconscious in some ways. And the effects always fail on them in
[1:08:45 - 1:08:50] ▶
the end. There's always almost this Faustian kind of like blow up moment at the end where like it all goes
[1:08:50 - 1:08:56] ▶
to shit. Yeah. And, um, you know, there's a biblical story of Simon of Magus who uses like black magic to
[1:08:56 - 1:09:02] ▶
levitate. And then he sees Peter and Paul, you know, levitating much higher. And I think the word
[1:09:02 - 1:09:07] ▶
simony comes from the fact that he tried to like buy their ability, which came from God to levitate, you
[1:09:07 - 1:09:14] ▶
know, super, super high. Sure. And so there are all these, it feels like, you know, what you're talking
[1:09:14 - 1:09:19] ▶
about navigating this terrain is, uh, you're, you're, you're walking a very straight and narrow
[1:09:19 - 1:09:25] ▶
path. There's, there are a bunch of landmines everywhere, everywhere. Yeah. And so where's
[1:09:25 - 1:09:31] ▶
the fight club analogy come in? Well, when you're asked to define this field, when you're asked to
[1:09:31 - 1:09:42] ▶
define, I don't like the word occultism because it sounds like Marxism or capitalism. Like it sounds like
[1:09:42 - 1:09:48] ▶
an ideology and it's not, or maybe for some people it is. Um, when you're asked to define it, let's,
[1:09:48 - 1:09:54] ▶
let's use the term magic because it's kind of universal when you're asked to define it,
[1:09:54 - 1:10:00] ▶
you can't, you fall apart. You can't define fight club. You can't talk about it. If you try to talk
[1:10:01 - 1:10:08] ▶
about it, the problem is the language that I'm using relies upon a set of, of assumptions that
[1:10:08 - 1:10:14] ▶
we all make about what those words mean. And that's a real problem. Okay. So we're talking in
[1:10:14 - 1:10:20] ▶
a language. We think we both understand what we're saying, but there's a point at which I know we're
[1:10:20 - 1:10:26] ▶
not. Yeah. And we're trying, we're honestly, we can honestly try. We sincerely want to, but our
[1:10:26 - 1:10:33] ▶
language itself is in the way the tools that we're using are difficult. They're providing roadblocks.
[1:10:33 - 1:10:38] ▶
Yeah. Or like, if you think of each of us as kind of like a measurement instrument, like your aperture
[1:10:38 - 1:10:45] ▶
needs to be adequately open to sort of resonate with this, you know, it's like the Jesus saying,
[1:10:45 - 1:10:49] ▶
you need ears to hear. Sure. Or I have to calibrate to yours. Sure. Right. Yeah. Right. So,
[1:10:49 - 1:10:55] ▶
I mean, this is, this is the problem that we face and that's just in English. Yeah. When you're
[1:10:55 - 1:10:59] ▶
talking about understanding it from, you know, a Jewish Kabbalah, for instance, I've done a lot of study in
[1:10:59 - 1:11:04] ▶
that direction. Are we talking about, um, other new Chinese, uh, alchemy for instance? I mean,
[1:11:04 - 1:11:10] ▶
they're using language. We translate it into English. So we think we know what they're talking about,
[1:11:10 - 1:11:14] ▶
but there's always that point at which, you know, we don't know. There's always that point where you,
[1:11:14 - 1:11:18] ▶
where they're saying something, they mean something else than what is really being translated. Right.
[1:11:18 - 1:11:23] ▶
Yeah. So this is, this is a problem. That's why they use pictures. That's why alchemy uses pictures and
[1:11:23 - 1:11:29] ▶
Chinese alchemy uses pictures and occultism is replete with images and pictures.
[1:11:29 - 1:11:34] ▶
Right. Which is how to go back to all the way back to the beginning of this conversation,
[1:11:34 - 1:11:40] ▶
which is how the abductees and contactees feel that they're communicating with alien intelligences.
[1:11:40 - 1:11:46] ▶
Yeah. Not through words, but through images.
[1:11:46 - 1:11:48] ▶
Yeah. It feels like a memetic layer that is sort of sub-linguistic or something. You know,
[1:11:48 - 1:11:53] ▶
one of my favorite, uh, Terence McKenna quotes is a secret is not something that isn't told. It's
[1:11:53 - 1:11:58] ▶
something that cannot be told. Right. So to your point, it's like sort of inherently locked in. Right.
[1:11:58 - 1:12:03] ▶
And, you know, if you were a true secret society, not one of these sort of things that like,
[1:12:03 - 1:12:08] ▶
I don't know, they wear that sort of fake garb or whatever, then, uh, it would be sort of inherently
[1:12:09 - 1:12:15] ▶
impenetrable and it would like sort of act on some hermit hermet, like truly hermetically sealed layer
[1:12:15 - 1:12:20] ▶
that like even certain participants in it wouldn't even know they were a part of it. Right.
[1:12:20 - 1:12:24] ▶
So yeah, it's so fascinating. Um, where do we go from here? Well, I, what is all of this have to do with
[1:12:24 - 1:12:34] ▶
UFOs? Because you and Tom DeLonge, who I think is extremely knowledgeable on this topic and, and both,
[1:12:35 - 1:12:45] ▶
both of you guys in your own ways caught the attention of some extremely impressive people in the
[1:12:45 - 1:12:51] ▶
government, people like Neil McCaslin and Rob Weiss, uh, I guess isn't government. He was skunkworks
[1:12:51 - 1:12:57] ▶
Lockheed, but you know, adjacent, um, do you want to talk about that process of how, you know, similar to
[1:12:57 - 1:13:04] ▶
your, your, your experience in the, um, you know, Orthodox Catholic church, how you kind of bumped into
[1:13:04 - 1:13:10] ▶
the highest levels of government and their interest in the topics of non-human intelligence.
[1:13:10 - 1:13:17] ▶
Tom contacted me, I think much the way you, you know, um, just out of the clear blue sky.
[1:13:17 - 1:13:23] ▶
Mm-hmm. And it was the end of 2014, um, November, I think when I first, he first contacted me and I
[1:13:23 - 1:13:30] ▶
didn't believe it was Tom DeLonge. Um, cause I get a lot of weird emails as you might expect.
[1:13:30 - 1:13:36] ▶
Yeah, I believe it. And some very strange, some strange phone calls also. And so I, uh, you know,
[1:13:36 - 1:13:42] ▶
okay. But then I, I did a little background and got back to him, I think the same day, day later or something.
[1:13:42 - 1:13:47] ▶
And he said, okay, let's talk. And we spoke on the phone first. We've had a lot of very long
[1:13:48 - 1:13:54] ▶
conversations, uh, from 2014 to the beginning of 2015, went on for hours. And, but basically his pitch was,
[1:13:54 - 1:14:02] ▶
I want to knock on doors. I want to go to their offices. I want to find out what's going on with
[1:14:05 - 1:14:11] ▶
the UFO phenomenon. Once and for all, I think this is the time we're going to go and we're just going
[1:14:11 - 1:14:16] ▶
to do what we can to do it. Whatever resources I have due to my celebrity, uh, due to whatever
[1:14:16 - 1:14:22] ▶
other resources I might have contacts in, in, in government and, uh, and in the military and all
[1:14:22 - 1:14:28] ▶
the rest of it, we're going to exploit these as much as we can to get to the bottom of this.
[1:14:28 - 1:14:32] ▶
And why is he reaching out to you to say this?
[1:14:32 - 1:14:34] ▶
You know, he's, he'd never actually told me point blank why he never came out and said,
[1:14:34 - 1:14:40] ▶
this was the moment. Why my assumption is because of a presentation I did in Amsterdam,
[1:14:40 - 1:14:47] ▶
uh, around 2000. I don't remember 2007, eight, nine, something like that. You're early 2000s.
[1:14:48 - 1:14:55] ▶
Um, on the, the secret space program was the name of this, of this thing. I was invited to come there and
[1:14:55 - 1:15:01] ▶
talk on the secret space program. I had no clue what he meant. This guy, right. Um, in Amsterdam,
[1:15:01 - 1:15:07] ▶
this, this Dutch guy contacted me, he says, we want you to, you know, whatever you want to talk about,
[1:15:07 - 1:15:11] ▶
but this is the name, this is the, the theme, the overall theme. Um, and so I said, okay, I'll talk
[1:15:11 - 1:15:16] ▶
about, you know, I'll talk about, we've just talked about, about the UFO situation, the connection to
[1:15:16 - 1:15:21] ▶
the Kennedy assassination. We'll do that. Right. So I did that. Um, and it was at that symposium
[1:15:21 - 1:15:31] ▶
that I met like everybody. Uh, I met Richard Dolan was there. Um, uh, Timothy Good was there.
[1:15:31 - 1:15:37] ▶
In fact, we split a bottle of scotch. Wow. Uh, we had nothing else to do.
[1:15:37 - 1:15:41] ▶
After the whole thing was over, we were in a part of Amsterdam. It was kind of remote from
[1:15:43 - 1:15:46] ▶
any place else. So we just sat there and drank. Um, I met, um, a lot of, a lot of people from
[1:15:46 - 1:15:53] ▶
the industry, I guess you'd call it the community who were there giving various speeches about various
[1:15:54 - 1:15:58] ▶
things, but I made this one speech about this and yeah, it was weird. Cause I was, you know, slides
[1:15:58 - 1:16:03] ▶
and I had pictures of everybody and, you know, I showed them who they were like in the movie JFK,
[1:16:03 - 1:16:08] ▶
you know, here's Jack Martin, here he is in real life, wearing the real stuff. And there's, you know,
[1:16:08 - 1:16:11] ▶
back and forth and went through the whole thing and talked about secrecy, government secrecy,
[1:16:11 - 1:16:16] ▶
where the UFO project was concerned. And I said, you know, this is, this is the problem. You know,
[1:16:16 - 1:16:21] ▶
there's a lot of weird stuff here. You're not being told the weird stuff. I only happened to know it
[1:16:21 - 1:16:26] ▶
from an accident. I happened to have been there and seen some of the weird stuff. I said, the weird
[1:16:26 - 1:16:30] ▶
stuff is there, but it's all considered classified. However, I said, our information is not considered
[1:16:30 - 1:16:37] ▶
classified. My personal information is not classified. I said, we need to spin that around
[1:16:37 - 1:16:43] ▶
where we can tell the government, you know, our information is classified. You can't have it.
[1:16:43 - 1:16:47] ▶
Right. For some reason, I was just riffing because they told me to keep it going because I,
[1:16:47 - 1:16:52] ▶
my speech had been too short. Right. The other guy wasn't coming on yet for like 15 minutes. They
[1:16:52 - 1:16:57] ▶
said, can you throw it out? So I said, okay, I'll talk. I'll keep on going. You know, what can I riff
[1:16:57 - 1:17:03] ▶
on what I just said? And I spin that out to that statement and suddenly he gets a standing ovation.
[1:17:03 - 1:17:07] ▶
Right. I'm thinking, holy crap, what kind of a crew in my ear with? I'm surrounded by all these people
[1:17:08 - 1:17:14] ▶
who thought this was, this was the point I'm talking about the Kennedy assassination, you know, Hoover and,
[1:17:14 - 1:17:19] ▶
you know, E. Howard Hunt and all these guys and Fred Crisman and Guy Bannister. And the part they
[1:17:19 - 1:17:24] ▶
liked was the classified part. Right. So anyway, that was, that got carried on a lot of YouTube
[1:17:24 - 1:17:30] ▶
channels. Suddenly that was all over the place. Right. That one particular presentation got a lot of
[1:17:30 - 1:17:35] ▶
views, hundreds of thousands of views when it first came out. So I think that might've been the trigger
[1:17:35 - 1:17:41] ▶
because nobody ever associated me with the UFO phenomenon before. I had written about it in,
[1:17:41 - 1:17:47] ▶
in, uh, secret machines. Yeah. Excuse me. Sinister forces. Yep.
[1:17:47 - 1:17:51] ▶
Too many books getting confused, but in, uh, sinister forces, there's just one chapter on,
[1:17:51 - 1:17:57] ▶
was one chapter on the assassination with all these weird guys. Yeah. And then in a later volume
[1:17:57 - 1:18:01] ▶
called communion, there's a chapter on the UFO phenomenon per se and conversations I had with
[1:18:01 - 1:18:06] ▶
Whitley Strieber who had contacted me years earlier, uh, for something kind of unrelated. But,
[1:18:06 - 1:18:12] ▶
you know, we began this long conversation on email, uh, on, on this subject also.
[1:18:12 - 1:18:17] ▶
What do you think they meant when they said, Hey, come speak about the secret space program? Because
[1:18:17 - 1:18:23] ▶
that, uh, term carries a lot of baggage and is often associated with the network Gaia and Corey
[1:18:23 - 1:18:31] ▶
Good and you know, this idea of 20 and back or whatever, and this sort of, you know, all that sort of
[1:18:31 - 1:18:37] ▶
stuff, which seems like honestly BS to me. And yet you write about celestial ascent and, you know,
[1:18:37 - 1:18:45] ▶
the idea that, um, you know, you can, you can ascend through seven levels and that there's sort of this
[1:18:45 - 1:18:52] ▶
map and that, you know, maps to, you know, um, the big dipper and, and, and, uh, and, and the North Star.
[1:18:52 - 1:18:59] ▶
And so, um, does that somehow have to do with some sort of secret space program? That concept,
[1:18:59 - 1:19:06] ▶
the like Kabbalistic concept? That would be so cool, wouldn't it?
[1:19:06 - 1:19:09] ▶
It would be interesting.
[1:19:09 - 1:19:10] ▶
It would be really cool. I don't think so. No, but what you're talking about,
[1:19:10 - 1:19:14] ▶
the 20 and back and all this other stuff, that's, that's supposed to be literal.
[1:19:14 - 1:19:18] ▶
That's supposed to be, you get into a spaceship and you go.
[1:19:18 - 1:19:20] ▶
We have technology to do that. And I've heard, I mean, I was on a panel with guys, I mean,
[1:19:20 - 1:19:25] ▶
who insisted that we have trade agreements with other planets and stuff and that we're,
[1:19:25 - 1:19:30] ▶
we're trading back and forth.
[1:19:30 - 1:19:31] ▶
Do you believe any of that or?
[1:19:31 - 1:19:33] ▶
Yeah. I don't really either.
[1:19:36 - 1:19:37] ▶
I'm not part of the Corey good crowd or the Stephen Wilcock, if I drop other names.
[1:19:37 - 1:19:42] ▶
but then sometimes I think about those guys and I'm like,
[1:19:43 - 1:19:45] ▶
if you were wanted to stigmatize a thing, you'd put out a thing that's adjacent to the truth
[1:19:46 - 1:19:52] ▶
and ridiculous sounding and nobody would ever look at that thing again.
[1:19:52 - 1:19:55] ▶
And so, you know, I don't know. Is it, is there anything there?
[1:19:56 - 1:20:00] ▶
From my way of thinking, everything I've heard them say and everything they've put forward,
[1:20:02 - 1:20:06] ▶
I have to say, I've been to a lot of contact in the desert stuff over the years.
[1:20:06 - 1:20:11] ▶
I was initially invited long ago to replace somebody, I think. And then I was invited to replace
[1:20:11 - 1:20:17] ▶
Jim Mars, who was sick that year and who passed away that year. He was a good friend.
[1:20:17 - 1:20:21] ▶
So I was at a lot of contact in the desert things, and I've heard a lot of weird stuff. I've been a
[1:20:22 - 1:20:27] ▶
lot of panels with people who insisted on, on things that were just simply not true, especially
[1:20:27 - 1:20:32] ▶
when it came to comparing all this stuff and mixing it in together with occult ideas.
[1:20:32 - 1:20:38] ▶
When they started doing that, then they really lost me because they were obviously talking about
[1:20:38 - 1:20:42] ▶
things they did not know or understand.
[1:20:42 - 1:20:44] ▶
Stuff that they had read on a website somewhere or something. And so they drew all of these
[1:20:44 - 1:20:48] ▶
correspondences together and were promoting these weird combinations of things. Right. And I kept
[1:20:48 - 1:20:54] ▶
strenuously trying to point that out, even publicly on, on the dais with everybody else saying,
[1:20:54 - 1:20:59] ▶
no, that's not how this works. Right. That is not how it works. What do you mean? Of course it,
[1:20:59 - 1:21:03] ▶
no, it's not how it works. Right. Did you listen to me the last half hour? No, it doesn't work.
[1:21:03 - 1:21:07] ▶
So there's been that pushback. They want to believe in this. It gives them a format. It gives
[1:21:07 - 1:21:12] ▶
them, it gives them freedom to make shit up. Yeah.
[1:21:12 - 1:21:15] ▶
That's what it is. And when you throw a cult in there, you can make shit up.
[1:21:15 - 1:21:19] ▶
Well, it almost feels like based on your discussing the interconnection between the JFK assassination
[1:21:19 - 1:21:26] ▶
and the UFO phenomenon, that there are sort of reality managers, like maybe even like above
[1:21:26 - 1:21:32] ▶
humanity that can like choreograph or pull the strings on things.
[1:21:32 - 1:21:36] ▶
Well, there's, and, and, and that does have to do with the occult. Like I think of,
[1:21:36 - 1:21:41] ▶
you know, the borderland society, this sort of occult research group, like in the forties,
[1:21:41 - 1:21:45] ▶
they were aware of certain UFO crashes before the government was. And there's documentation of that.
[1:21:45 - 1:21:50] ▶
You have stuff with James Jesus Angleton and Hugh Angleton being involved in the Knights of Malta and
[1:21:50 - 1:21:56] ▶
certain secret societies. And so, and then obviously a lot of the early CIA was sort of skull and bones.
[1:21:56 - 1:22:02] ▶
And so you wonder, is there some hermetic substructure? Like we think of, you know,
[1:22:02 - 1:22:07] ▶
the government disclosure, like the president knows everything, but like, is there some sort of
[1:22:07 - 1:22:12] ▶
choreography going on behind the scenes that most humans aren't aware of? Maybe a few are?
[1:22:12 - 1:22:18] ▶
Well, the whole, the whole point of sinister forces was that there are sinister forces.
[1:22:18 - 1:22:22] ▶
Right. But these sinister forces are such that to, um, to equate them with, how shall I put it?
[1:22:23 - 1:22:31] ▶
So, I mean, this, this is the thing. Is there an occult concept here? Obviously we've shown,
[1:22:36 - 1:22:42] ▶
I think I've shown through documentation, the connection with the UFO phenomenon and the Kennedy
[1:22:42 - 1:22:48] ▶
assassination as an example, that's, these are documented individuals.
[1:22:48 - 1:22:52] ▶
They had documented histories. Right. So that we know, and the churches, that's again, documented.
[1:22:52 - 1:22:57] ▶
Right. So all of this is, is there, but does that mean there's a cabal of high-ranking
[1:22:57 - 1:23:04] ▶
Freemasons or something pulling the strings? No, no, because that, that's too public again. Right.
[1:23:05 - 1:23:10] ▶
That's too, that's not how this works. So there is a, again, we're talking about Fight Club.
[1:23:11 - 1:23:19] ▶
There is a mechanism whereby these things happen. Right.
[1:23:19 - 1:23:25] ▶
Whereby a mystic, a Belgian mystic, you know, at the turn of the century in Europe could predict
[1:23:25 - 1:23:34] ▶
Kennedy's assassination.
[1:23:34 - 1:23:36] ▶
Um, well, there was a mystic who wrote the famous play, The Bluebird.
[1:23:37 - 1:23:45] ▶
Okay. They made movies out of it. Maeterlinck, Maurice Maeterlinck, Belgian mystic.
[1:23:45 - 1:23:49] ▶
And he was a mystic. He was an astrologer. He was a mystic. He also won the Nobel Prize for literature.
[1:23:50 - 1:23:55] ▶
And he wrote The Bluebird, which they made into various versions. And if we get into Bluebird,
[1:23:56 - 1:24:00] ▶
that's pulling on a whole bunch of threads that you don't, we really don't have time for.
[1:24:00 - 1:24:04] ▶
Well, Operation Bluebird was pre-MK Ultra.
[1:24:04 - 1:24:06] ▶
Yes, it was. It was the first.
[1:24:06 - 1:24:08] ▶
Was it named after Maeterlinck?
[1:24:09 - 1:24:10] ▶
This is the point I'm coming to make.
[1:24:10 - 1:24:12] ▶
Because the same guy who wrote that wrote a play called The Cloud That Lifted.
[1:24:13 - 1:24:16] ▶
And The Cloud That Lifted is about the assassination of a political leader,
[1:24:17 - 1:24:21] ▶
where shots were fired from a grassy knoll. We don't know how many shots were fired. There's
[1:24:22 - 1:24:26] ▶
discrepancy. And the guy who fired the shots, um, might have worked for Russia, according to the
[1:24:26 - 1:24:32] ▶
It's Lee Harvey Oswald.
[1:24:33 - 1:24:34] ▶
And his name was Alec, which was Lee Harvey Oswald's name in Minsk. And he lived there.
[1:24:34 - 1:24:39] ▶
That's wild. That is wild.
[1:24:39 - 1:24:42] ▶
This was all written before Kennedy was born. So if there's somebody pulling the strings,
[1:24:42 - 1:24:47] ▶
is it a somebody the way we think of a somebody? Or is it a mechanism of some kind, as Vallee called
[1:24:47 - 1:24:53] ▶
it, a control mechanism?
[1:24:53 - 1:24:55] ▶
It feels like that. It feels like things are sort of, you know, like the, I think the
[1:24:55 - 1:25:02] ▶
new agey dumb word we used to describe it, your term is like quantum entangled or something,
[1:25:02 - 1:25:06] ▶
but it feels like that. Like that's one example where the probability of that sort of prediction
[1:25:06 - 1:25:12] ▶
at that level of specificity. So goes beyond like any sort of prosaic explanation around survivorship
[1:25:12 - 1:25:19] ▶
bias or, you know, like selectivity bias or whatever. And there are tons of other examples.
[1:25:19 - 1:25:24] ▶
If you look for this sort of thing, there's this book written by Morgan Robertson in 1898 called
[1:25:24 - 1:25:29] ▶
Wreck of the Titan or Futility, Wreck of the Titan. And the ship is called the Titan and it crashes in
[1:25:29 - 1:25:35] ▶
the middle of the Atlantic at night. And it's an iceberg and it's the largest, you know, liner of its time.
[1:25:35 - 1:25:43] ▶
And it's in April and it's the same size as the Titanic. And so it's, you get down to like levels
[1:25:43 - 1:25:49] ▶
of specificity that are insane. And it's like basically a decade before the Titanic. I think
[1:25:49 - 1:25:54] ▶
some blue blooded elites were on board. The Astros were on board the actual Titanic. Um,
[1:25:54 - 1:25:59] ▶
so you, and you have a lot of these examples. There's a sci-fi author, Dean Kuntz, who predicted
[1:26:00 - 1:26:04] ▶
COVID the Wuhan lab.
[1:26:04 - 1:26:06] ▶
Um, you have this kind of modern, you know, self-proclaimed prophet talking about Trump
[1:26:06 - 1:26:13] ▶
getting shot in the ear, in the ear that he was shot in.
[1:26:13 - 1:26:17] ▶
It was like four months before it happened or whatever. You have the adventures of
[1:26:18 - 1:26:22] ▶
Don and Baron Trump and their time traveling adventures, which is a book that was written,
[1:26:22 - 1:26:26] ▶
I think also in the 19th century. So it's just crazy how many examples there are.
[1:26:26 - 1:26:30] ▶
And there was the, there was the book that, uh, talked about the Texas tower sniper
[1:26:30 - 1:26:34] ▶
before it ever happened.
[1:26:34 - 1:26:35] ▶
With specificity, even to the name of the police chief,
[1:26:37 - 1:26:39] ▶
who was not the police chief at the time, uh, even to the name of the police chief, who was
[1:26:40 - 1:26:44] ▶
the police chief eventually the one who, who solved the case, who, who got the sniper.
[1:26:44 - 1:26:49] ▶
His name is actually mentioned in the book and he was not part of the police at that time. He was
[1:26:49 - 1:26:53] ▶
not anywhere near it. Right. So the whole Texas tower sniper thing was completely,
[1:26:53 - 1:26:58] ▶
completely described in advance.
[1:26:58 - 1:27:00] ▶
Was that Texas A&M or where?
[1:27:00 - 1:27:03] ▶
And, and so is this like you're glitching into a future that already, you know, in a block universe,
[1:27:04 - 1:27:12] ▶
like pre-exists and you're sort of like, you know, figuring that out, figuring out what's
[1:27:12 - 1:27:17] ▶
happening. You're getting some download or is it some sort of predictive programming where you are
[1:27:17 - 1:27:21] ▶
causing the future by writing about these things?
[1:27:21 - 1:27:24] ▶
I think we have to go back to Russ Cole and time is a spiral.
[1:27:24 - 1:27:29] ▶
Russ Cole and time is a spiral.
[1:27:29 - 1:27:31] ▶
Russ Cole and time is a spiral.
[1:27:31 - 1:27:32] ▶
The glitch is the proof. The glitch is the proof that this is a malleable reality that we live in.
[1:27:35 - 1:27:44] ▶
Russ Cole and time is a spiral.
[1:27:44 - 1:27:46] ▶
I'll give you an example in, in Indonesia, I spent some time in Indonesia.
[1:27:46 - 1:27:51] ▶
It's a fascinating place. It's a place that from a Western perspective makes no sense because we think
[1:27:52 - 1:27:59] ▶
of things in a certain way. And when you go to a country like Indonesia, which is the majority Muslim
[1:27:59 - 1:28:04] ▶
country, over 250 million people, Muslims, the fourth largest country in the world.
[1:28:04 - 1:28:10] ▶
And you think of it as a Muslim, it is a Muslim, primarily country, but it's replete with Hindu
[1:28:10 - 1:28:18] ▶
and Buddhist statuary, archaeological sites going back hundreds and hundreds of years,
[1:28:18 - 1:28:24] ▶
right? Which are maintained and kept. And sometimes you'll find incense burning and flowers brought and
[1:28:24 - 1:28:29] ▶
all the rest of it, right? In this impossible place. They have a series of calendars, right? They don't use
[1:28:29 - 1:28:37] ▶
just one calendar, right? So they use our calendar, like for business purposes and general international
[1:28:37 - 1:28:42] ▶
purposes. Then there's the Muslim calendar, which is a lunar calendar. Okay. All Muslim countries do
[1:28:42 - 1:28:47] ▶
that. But then they have a bunch of other calendars, right? There's a five-week, a five-day week calendar,
[1:28:47 - 1:28:52] ▶
for instance. And they, they calculate special days, special ritual days based on these, on these things.
[1:28:52 - 1:28:58] ▶
And the whole point is, it's a civilization, very aware, very conscious
[1:28:59 - 1:29:05] ▶
calendars of coincidence. Coincidence is like the thing that shows you there's a force in the universe.
[1:29:05 - 1:29:13] ▶
When these calendars start to coincide at specific places, that's like the coincidence that starts
[1:29:13 - 1:29:19] ▶
something off, right? So they don't measure time the same way that we're measuring it by solar and lunar
[1:29:19 - 1:29:26] ▶
and a bunch of other systems, right? And they interlock kind of. And so they, they publish books
[1:29:26 - 1:29:31] ▶
called a primbon, which is like a, like an almanac, right? To tell the future to decide when you're
[1:29:31 - 1:29:37] ▶
born, you know, things about your life, what dreams mean and all the rest of it. But then there's the
[1:29:37 - 1:29:41] ▶
calendars that are very important. So if you're conducting rituals, you have to follow not the
[1:29:41 - 1:29:46] ▶
regular calendar. You have to follow one of these ritual calendars, which are five-day week calendars,
[1:29:46 - 1:29:51] ▶
as an example, right? So you have those that you have to follow. So then you're building up
[1:29:51 - 1:29:56] ▶
a mindset that's based on the idea of synchronicity and coincidence and different levels of reality
[1:29:56 - 1:30:03] ▶
operating at different times, right? Or operating at the same time, but different levels of reality.
[1:30:03 - 1:30:07] ▶
So you can be in one or the other.
[1:30:09 - 1:30:10] ▶
Right. So, which enables them basically to be
[1:30:11 - 1:30:14] ▶
Muslim and in the case, my case of, of living there, Javanese, right? People from the island of
[1:30:15 - 1:30:21] ▶
Java, they have their own traditions, their own ways of doing things. They visit graves.
[1:30:21 - 1:30:26] ▶
Which you're not supposed to do if you're Islamic. And they have other practices that we would find
[1:30:26 - 1:30:30] ▶
really strange, which Muslims find very strange also. But they're protected by their Islamic faith
[1:30:30 - 1:30:36] ▶
and by the Imams and everybody else. And they're doing things that we would consider perhaps a little
[1:30:36 - 1:30:41] ▶
questionable. Right?
[1:30:41 - 1:30:42] ▶
I know you were going to ask me that.
[1:30:43 - 1:30:44] ▶
My psychic powers are working.
[1:30:46 - 1:30:47] ▶
Well, for instance, I was fascinated by this one thing that I had heard about and I could not believe,
[1:30:48 - 1:30:53] ▶
but it's true. There is a cemetery. There's a number of cemeteries in Java that do this. There's
[1:30:54 - 1:30:59] ▶
one in particular that I visited that in this cemetery, if you're a Muslim or you're a devout
[1:30:59 - 1:31:07] ▶
Muslims, it's only for devout Muslims. It's not for tourists. You go to this particular spot. There
[1:31:07 - 1:31:15] ▶
is the grave of a famous prince who had died on that spot. And his grave is there. But a lot of
[1:31:15 - 1:31:21] ▶
other graves as well. It's a cemetery, an Islamic cemetery. And you go there because you need
[1:31:21 - 1:31:28] ▶
something. You know, like Catholics have novenas, right? Those who are Catholic, no to novena is,
[1:31:28 - 1:31:33] ▶
it's like every, you know, nine, every Good Friday, every first Friday is nine in a row or something.
[1:31:33 - 1:31:40] ▶
You perform a ritual. You pray for something to happen, some good thing to happen. Somebody is sick,
[1:31:40 - 1:31:46] ▶
you want them healed or you need success in business or whatever it happens to be. You pray a
[1:31:46 - 1:31:50] ▶
novena for it. Well, this is something similar again, using that calendar. So on a particular day,
[1:31:50 - 1:31:57] ▶
every month, you go to this site and you have sex with a stranger.
[1:31:57 - 1:32:03] ▶
Jesus. Not necessarily Jesus, but a stranger.
[1:32:03 - 1:32:09] ▶
At a burial? At a grave?
[1:32:09 - 1:32:14] ▶
Yeah. Okay. Let me back up a little bit.
[1:32:14 - 1:32:16] ▶
Okay. You have to be married first because Islam does not approve of extramarital relationships.
[1:32:16 - 1:32:22] ▶
So there's an imam there who will perform the marriage ceremony. So you marry this stranger
[1:32:22 - 1:32:30] ▶
in a regular ceremony. Then you have sex in the cemetery, either on the ground,
[1:32:30 - 1:32:35] ▶
you know, on a grave, or they've been building little shacks, little huts for this purpose as well.
[1:32:36 - 1:32:41] ▶
And that takes place. And then in the morning, you go to the imam and you get divorced.
[1:32:41 - 1:32:46] ▶
And then the next month you come back, the same thing happens again. And you do that for a
[1:32:51 - 1:32:56] ▶
specified number of times. Depends on the purpose. It depends on what book you're reading, I guess.
[1:32:56 - 1:33:02] ▶
But that's what's done. And it's done. I was there and I didn't witness the act.
[1:33:02 - 1:33:07] ▶
But I witnessed it. What's the symbolic purpose of that?
[1:33:07 - 1:33:10] ▶
This is where Indian and Javanese things start to combine, start to come together, right?
[1:33:13 - 1:33:19] ▶
It's the kings of Java, of Indonesia in general, before the rise of Islam were considered Tantric kings.
[1:33:19 - 1:33:28] ▶
Borobudur is a beautiful example. Prambanan also, which is Hindu and Buddhist. They were very involved
[1:33:29 - 1:33:37] ▶
in the Tantric interpretation of Indian religion. In fact, even the Dalai Lama came to bless the Borobudur
[1:33:37 - 1:33:44] ▶
monument as saying this was a representative of Vajrayana Buddhism. This was their system,
[1:33:44 - 1:33:51] ▶
their Tibetan system. The guy who brought Buddhism to Tibet, Atisha, studied in Indonesia before he
[1:33:51 - 1:33:59] ▶
left and went to India and then brought somehow the teachings were brought to Tibet. So there's a
[1:33:59 - 1:34:05] ▶
Tibet-India-Indonesia connection that's very strong. So we don't know all the details on this very well,
[1:34:05 - 1:34:12] ▶
but there's a story about the prince and a lost love and the love of his life died and then he
[1:34:12 - 1:34:19] ▶
committed suicide or something. So you go and you reenact this wedding night at his grave to get his
[1:34:19 - 1:34:26] ▶
attention so that he bestows upon you these, whatever it is that you're looking for.
[1:34:26 - 1:34:29] ▶
Wow. That is crazy. But it's fascinating that you have whole groups of people. You know,
[1:34:29 - 1:34:38] ▶
there's studies that like the language you have determines your outlook on life and your kind of
[1:34:38 - 1:34:44] ▶
perceptive epistemology itself. Sure. So like Germans are more pessimistic because like they speak more in
[1:34:44 - 1:34:50] ▶
past tense or something. I've probably botching that slightly, but like something like that. And
[1:34:50 - 1:34:55] ▶
so, yeah, if you have a, you know, kind of a whole epistemology that is more based on meaning than time.
[1:34:56 - 1:35:04] ▶
Right. And connections between events versus just some like, you know, um, flowing of time that is
[1:35:04 - 1:35:11] ▶
sort of permanent. Um, you know, you have the, you know, the, the proverbial kind of river of time that,
[1:35:11 - 1:35:16] ▶
you know, you get out, you can't, you never get out in the same place twice. Right.
[1:35:16 - 1:35:19] ▶
That will probably be get a whole different, you know, epistemology in life that you would lead and,
[1:35:19 - 1:35:26] ▶
and, and society and culture, you know, if you extrapolate that out. So it's fascinating. You know,
[1:35:26 - 1:35:31] ▶
time is the most used noun in the English language and it's completely undefinable. It's definable
[1:35:31 - 1:35:37] ▶
only with respect to the movement of bodies or even, you know, in, in science, it's sort of, you know,
[1:35:37 - 1:35:42] ▶
oscillations on an electromagnetic wave or something. Sure.
[1:35:42 - 1:35:46] ▶
But it's, uh, it's so weird and it's weird scientifically too. You know, it's taken as
[1:35:46 - 1:35:50] ▶
this kind of, um, classical axiom in quantum mechanics. Uh, but you know, you have time
[1:35:50 - 1:35:57] ▶
uncertainty with level of energy, you know, just like you have position and momentum uncertainty.
[1:35:57 - 1:36:01] ▶
Um, and, uh, and then obviously you have time dilation and kind of a general relativity context.
[1:36:01 - 1:36:07] ▶
And then gravity kind of makes sense and, you know, doesn't make sense, you know, in, in the
[1:36:07 - 1:36:12] ▶
quantum context and, um, and then gravity and time are obviously extremely interlinked and related.
[1:36:12 - 1:36:18] ▶
Like time slows, the closer you get to like a black hole, for example. So time itself is just so weird.
[1:36:18 - 1:36:24] ▶
It's more of an experience than anything else.
[1:36:25 - 1:36:27] ▶
It's more, it's experience itself.
[1:36:27 - 1:36:29] ▶
And then there's probably some, some substrate of meaning that like, like your, uh, your, your,
[1:36:31 - 1:36:36] ▶
your mind is sort of a time machine. That's like reading something that's, that's, that's reality
[1:36:36 - 1:36:42] ▶
itself. That's much deeper. It's like a punch card or something. And your, your mind is doing the
[1:36:42 - 1:36:46] ▶
punching, but it's like, you're, that's not the substrate, you know, like whatever that, that sort
[1:36:46 - 1:36:52] ▶
of paper is. And you can, you can maybe, you know, move the cursor along different tracks to kind
[1:36:52 - 1:36:57] ▶
of switch analogies there. But like, you know, it's very strange.
[1:36:57 - 1:37:02] ▶
It's fight club. Yeah. It's hard to sort of talk about these things. So, so how specifically,
[1:37:04 - 1:37:10] ▶
so, okay. So you do this, this speech about the secret space program or whatever,
[1:37:10 - 1:37:14] ▶
You know, in Amsterdam. And then how, how do you catch the eye of, because Neil Macassland
[1:37:15 - 1:37:20] ▶
is like doing foreign material exploitation at Wright-Patterson, which if you know anything about
[1:37:20 - 1:37:26] ▶
Roswell, like the material ends up in foreign material exploitation at, you know,
[1:37:26 - 1:37:32] ▶
Wright-Patterson, at least according to the Philip J. Corso account and like a lot of UFO lore.
[1:37:32 - 1:37:37] ▶
So if there was ever a guy to like really know what the quote unquote UFO program is and holds
[1:37:37 - 1:37:44] ▶
knowledge-wise, it would be this guy. And he's reaching out to you.
[1:37:44 - 1:37:47] ▶
Well, let's, yeah, we reached out. I mean, I don't know how Tom does what Tom does.
[1:37:47 - 1:37:54] ▶
But what, what did happen that I, that I'm reasonably sure was, was part of this.
[1:37:56 - 1:38:01] ▶
Tom asked me to write something that he could show people.
[1:38:03 - 1:38:06] ▶
About what we were up to, what we were trying to do. And that became the very first opening pages
[1:38:07 - 1:38:12] ▶
of secret machines, gods. And that's the cargo cult chapter.
[1:38:12 - 1:38:16] ▶
Kind of a, of a prologue to, to this. So,
[1:38:18 - 1:38:20] ▶
cargo cult was a couple of pages long. And the, the idea was, take the cargo cult, uh, concept and
[1:38:21 - 1:38:30] ▶
say, that's how we started on this planet. This, this is how civilization began. That we,
[1:38:30 - 1:38:35] ▶
as the 21st century civilization that we are, our origins are as a cargo cult. Now, if you know what
[1:38:36 - 1:38:43] ▶
a cargo cult is, I'm assuming that you, you know, it's, it's, um, in the South Pacific islands in the
[1:38:43 - 1:38:48] ▶
20th, early 20th century, uh, planes would land on islands in the South Pacific, uh, you know, near,
[1:38:48 - 1:38:56] ▶
near, um, the Indonesian islands to the far east and planes would land. And there were basically stone
[1:38:56 - 1:39:03] ▶
age level tribes living there and a plane would land and stuff would come out of the plane, all
[1:39:03 - 1:39:07] ▶
these goods and services. Right. So you had, uh, packages of stuff, you had medicines, you had food
[1:39:07 - 1:39:12] ▶
supplies, you had weapons because this was the beginning of the war. And these, these stone age
[1:39:12 - 1:39:17] ▶
tribes are looking at this thing and they're saying, God damn, we don't know that this, that you could
[1:39:17 - 1:39:22] ▶
do that. Right. So they went and they built landing strips, you know, hoping that these planes
[1:39:22 - 1:39:27] ▶
would land and give them stuff. They said, that's all you really need to do. You build a landing strip,
[1:39:27 - 1:39:31] ▶
you get a, like a conning tower or something and, and you, and you, you imitate what we're seeing
[1:39:31 - 1:39:36] ▶
and maybe planes will land and give us all this good stuff. Also, that was the concept. So our concept
[1:39:37 - 1:39:43] ▶
in starting this project was that our entire society is a cargo cult because everything we're trying to
[1:39:43 - 1:39:49] ▶
do to want longevity, to live forever and to travel to the stars has its roots in something
[1:39:49 - 1:39:58] ▶
extraterrestrial as its roots in these stories we tell about the gods who came to visit us. Right.
[1:39:58 - 1:40:04] ▶
The gods who came down and gave us agriculture, gave us writing, gave us all these things. It's
[1:40:04 - 1:40:09] ▶
always some supernatural being. It's never Joe from next door who taught us how to write, you know,
[1:40:09 - 1:40:15] ▶
it's always this creature that comes down usually from space. What are examples and kind of mythology?
[1:40:15 - 1:40:21] ▶
Well, the famous one, I guess, is Oannes in the Sumerian myths, right? So here is a god who lands
[1:40:21 - 1:40:27] ▶
in the river, you know, outside of Sumer and comes up out of a vehicle of some kind and he's wearing a
[1:40:28 - 1:40:35] ▶
weird suit with a strange hat, which we can talk about later. And he walks up to the people and he
[1:40:35 - 1:40:41] ▶
starts teaching them stuff. He teaches them math. He teaches them writing. He teaches them agriculture.
[1:40:41 - 1:40:46] ▶
And then every night he goes back down into his craft in the ocean. He never eats or drinks when
[1:40:46 - 1:40:52] ▶
he's on land with these people. Right. Doesn't want to eat or drink. We don't even know if he's
[1:40:52 - 1:40:59] ▶
breathing because he's wearing a hat of some kind, goes back down and then eventually flies away back
[1:40:59 - 1:41:04] ▶
into space. And he's the person who gave the Sumerians the knowledge of writing and agriculture and
[1:41:04 - 1:41:09] ▶
everything else that Sumerians are famous for supposedly having invented. So that's their story. That's their
[1:41:09 - 1:41:15] ▶
creation myth, you know, from that point of view. There's another creation myth, which is much more
[1:41:15 - 1:41:19] ▶
like the one we have in Genesis with good angels and bad angels, basically good gods and bad gods and
[1:41:19 - 1:41:23] ▶
all the rest of it. But this one is their, the idea that they got their knowledge from this creature.
[1:41:23 - 1:41:32] ▶
And the hat that he's wearing is depicted on artwork and it looks like a fish's head, you know, like the
[1:41:33 - 1:41:40] ▶
head of a fish. Like maybe it was down this way and he pulled it up to talk to them and then put it back
[1:41:40 - 1:41:44] ▶
down the other way. But that fish's head of course is identical to the Catholic bishop's mitre.
[1:41:44 - 1:41:49] ▶
It's exactly the same design, you know, so we don't know what that means because that design is
[1:41:50 - 1:41:55] ▶
bizarre. You know, the Orthodox one is nicer. It's a crown, a real crown, you know, with jewels on it
[1:41:55 - 1:42:00] ▶
and stuff, you know, which we used to make for the other bishops when I was in the church. So that was
[1:42:00 - 1:42:06] ▶
like a thing we did as a business. But the Catholic one was kind of simple. It was just like, you know,
[1:42:06 - 1:42:11] ▶
a folded thing that you could open up and just stick on your head that way.
[1:42:11 - 1:42:14] ▶
So do you think like in your actual model of reality, do you think that, you know, at the
[1:42:14 - 1:42:20] ▶
advent of kind of the agricultural revolution where you get writing, urbanization, history,
[1:42:20 - 1:42:26] ▶
all begins, mythology begins, that there was a, an initial contact event with people from the stars?
[1:42:26 - 1:42:33] ▶
Right. That's, that's our thesis. It's our point, as we call it. This is when everything really began
[1:42:33 - 1:42:41] ▶
because it appears as though we lived on the planet for a long time, not really caring about
[1:42:42 - 1:42:45] ▶
any of that stuff. Right. We were happy. And then suddenly there's these beings that come down and
[1:42:45 - 1:42:51] ▶
say, no, you've got to write and you've got to keep track and you've got to have numbers. And,
[1:42:51 - 1:42:54] ▶
you know, and besides look at the stars, did you ever look up? Did you ever wonder like what all that's
[1:42:54 - 1:42:58] ▶
about? So, you know, then suddenly we're all like, oh, okay. And so we're, we're doing that. Can you
[1:42:58 - 1:43:03] ▶
imagine the Babylonians, the, the, the impetus behind the Sumerians and the Babylonians, the Akkadians
[1:43:03 - 1:43:11] ▶
to stare at the night sky and chart those stars?
[1:43:12 - 1:43:17] ▶
It's amazing. And I mean, all the Graham Hancock, Robert Shock stuff, like the most interesting part
[1:43:17 - 1:43:24] ▶
about all of it is how astronomically aligned all of this ancient megalithic architecture is to the
[1:43:24 - 1:43:30] ▶
stars, not only to the stars, but to like the alignment of the stars in like 10,500 BC, you
[1:43:30 - 1:43:36] ▶
know, it's fascinating. It's fascinating because not only they didn't have telescopes, obviously,
[1:43:36 - 1:43:42] ▶
but the fact that they would, because you don't have a telescope, you have to sit there and watch it
[1:43:43 - 1:43:49] ▶
for hours. You've got to mark the passage of these things. The planets is one thing, right? The sun and
[1:43:49 - 1:43:55] ▶
moon is like the obvious ones, right? They're easy to see. But then once you get past that, you're talking
[1:43:55 - 1:44:00] ▶
about the other planets, you have to notice that there is certain planets that don't stay in the same
[1:44:00 - 1:44:04] ▶
place as the other ones do. That's the beginning. So you're starting to keep track of that. And then
[1:44:04 - 1:44:09] ▶
you're keeping track of the background stars that don't move, right? Or they move like in a circular motion.
[1:44:09 - 1:44:15] ▶
The amount of work that requires, the amount of attention to detail. You have to be writing at
[1:44:15 - 1:44:23] ▶
that point. There's no other way to keep track, right? You can't memorize it. So you're writing
[1:44:23 - 1:44:26] ▶
all of this down. So that's integrated with the idea of writing, language, and numbers. It's all
[1:44:26 - 1:44:31] ▶
integrated with the math of astronomy. You need both of those things to understand what's happening,
[1:44:31 - 1:44:36] ▶
right? To keep track, to keep a record. That to me is amazing. Why do that?
[1:44:36 - 1:44:40] ▶
And it's a quantum leap from being a hunter-gatherer. It's just a huge jump.
[1:44:40 - 1:44:47] ▶
Do you, so obviously outside of generically, a lot of myths involving people from the stars coming
[1:44:47 - 1:44:54] ▶
down and teaching knowledge of the stars and mapping the cosmos, is there a myth that most comports with
[1:44:54 - 1:45:02] ▶
your version of what actually happened? Oh, I think, no, I think part of the, the,
[1:45:02 - 1:45:08] ▶
the short answer is no, there isn't one, but one of the points we make and send in secret machines,
[1:45:09 - 1:45:15] ▶
we try to make it a couple of times. I hope I don't bore anybody with it is the fact that everybody has
[1:45:15 - 1:45:21] ▶
a piece of the story. Everybody's got a piece of what happened, you know, and we ignore the other
[1:45:21 - 1:45:27] ▶
pieces that are peril. Everybody has a creation story similar to this. When I say everybody in
[1:45:27 - 1:45:34] ▶
general terms, so in Asia, in South America and Australia, all over Europe, everybody has a kind
[1:45:34 - 1:45:41] ▶
of story about this. They have a way of, they're trying to explain what happened. We need to pay
[1:45:41 - 1:45:45] ▶
attention because there's, there's data hidden in those stories. There's definitely data there.
[1:45:45 - 1:45:51] ▶
We have to look for that data. We have to listen to these stories. We have to save them from being,
[1:45:51 - 1:45:55] ▶
from extinction. Everybody on the planet has a piece of the story. We're all blind men with the
[1:45:55 - 1:46:01] ▶
elephant, which is the thing I always talk about. We always have a piece of that elephant. You know,
[1:46:01 - 1:46:06] ▶
no one has the whole picture. No one in this country does, right? No one in Russia or China
[1:46:06 - 1:46:11] ▶
or anywhere else does. We all have pieces of it. We need to collaborate on that. If we're really going
[1:46:11 - 1:46:16] ▶
to come to get to the, to the root of this situation. Sounds like the Tower of Babel or something.
[1:46:16 - 1:46:20] ▶
It is. Yeah, it is. We're, we're split this way and we keep reinforcing that split.
[1:46:20 - 1:46:25] ▶
And it's, uh, it's, it's terrible. Uh, because we're, we're blinded by, as I mentioned in the
[1:46:25 - 1:46:32] ▶
very beginning, the ideologies and the fantasies, right? They get in the way of the data, right?
[1:46:32 - 1:46:37] ▶
We need to kind of strip a lot of that out and get back to what, what did your ancestors tell you?
[1:46:37 - 1:46:42] ▶
You know, perhaps what's most remarkable about this story though, is you have a guy who's working
[1:46:42 - 1:46:46] ▶
at Wright Patterson, you know, and then you have another guy who's like, you know, running like Skunkworks,
[1:46:46 - 1:46:52] ▶
which is the most advanced R and D division of, you know, Lockheed responsible for the SR 71 and U2 spy
[1:46:52 - 1:46:59] ▶
planes. Yeah. And they get interested in your work because you're talking about a cargo cult that gets
[1:46:59 - 1:47:08] ▶
the humanity and religion itself being an outgrowth of an early contact event. And it's almost as if they
[1:47:08 - 1:47:15] ▶
have some sort of ontological model of reality that comes from like a lot of data around this stuff.
[1:47:15 - 1:47:21] ▶
Yeah. That's our impression. We, we, we got into a point in 2015, I guess it was that, um,
[1:47:21 - 1:47:29] ▶
Tom is sending me these, these long emails that he's getting, right? And he's saying,
[1:47:29 - 1:47:35] ▶
what the hell do you make of this? Uh, and, um, we, we get on the phone and we start talking about
[1:47:35 - 1:47:41] ▶
this and I'm saying, we are having, we're having an all the president's men moment right here. I said,
[1:47:41 - 1:47:48] ▶
we're having a, a deep throat moment because people are trying to tell us something without telling us
[1:47:48 - 1:47:53] ▶
something. Right. You know, it's like follow the money, right? They're, they're giving us hints of
[1:47:53 - 1:47:59] ▶
where we should go on this and we have to pay attention to what they're not telling us and what
[1:47:59 - 1:48:03] ▶
they're telling us. And this came across because at one point somebody sent us this long email,
[1:48:03 - 1:48:09] ▶
one of his most trusted advisors said, have you thought about, have you really looked,
[1:48:09 - 1:48:14] ▶
how much do you know about Greek mythology? It's like, whoa, who said that? I can't say.
[1:48:15 - 1:48:22] ▶
Okay. So he came out and said that it was a, he, he came out and said, do that. Right. And it's
[1:48:22 - 1:48:28] ▶
specifically talking about Prometheus. Now that gives the show away, right? If we take the Prometheus
[1:48:28 - 1:48:36] ▶
story as an encrypted story of what actually happened,
[1:48:36 - 1:48:44] ▶
we're getting close. And I think that is what, what it is there. At some point, somebody did
[1:48:44 - 1:48:54] ▶
something they weren't supposed to do. And it might've been, it might've jumpstarted civilization
[1:48:54 - 1:48:59] ▶
on this planet. Right. It might've been that, but Prometheus suddenly became the thing. And so
[1:48:59 - 1:49:05] ▶
Tom is saying, what the fuck do we know about Prometheus? You know? And so I'm saying, let's,
[1:49:05 - 1:49:08] ▶
let's, let's take it easy. Let's go. You know, Prometheus was this guy. He stole fire from the gods,
[1:49:08 - 1:49:12] ▶
right? For the humans. He was giving fire to the humans. Humans didn't have fire. They were
[1:49:12 - 1:49:17] ▶
freezing their asses off. Prometheus came down and said, here's fire, get warm, you know? And the
[1:49:17 - 1:49:21] ▶
gods didn't like that. So they punished, punished Prometheus. You know, you're going to get chained
[1:49:21 - 1:49:25] ▶
to a rock, you know, you're going to be punished for the rest of your existence for this, for this
[1:49:25 - 1:49:30] ▶
thing. So I said, let's go back and look at this. This is what they're trying to tell. They're trying to
[1:49:30 - 1:49:34] ▶
tell us something. And what is Prometheus about? It's about contact between the humans and the gods.
[1:49:34 - 1:49:41] ▶
And the one who made the contact was a god, not one of the humans.
[1:49:42 - 1:49:45] ▶
That's right. And it was a god who was transgressing on behalf of humans against the gods themselves,
[1:49:46 - 1:49:54] ▶
sort of a rebel, you know, sleeper cell god. Yeah. Which the Gnostics believed was the serpent
[1:49:54 - 1:50:00] ▶
in the Garden of Eden, that the serpent was God, that the god that we know of from the Bible was the
[1:50:00 - 1:50:07] ▶
imposter, the interloper, the, you know, the guy who was not really God.
[1:50:07 - 1:50:11] ▶
So I got breakfast with Tom DeLonge once, who I love, by the way. I think he's the best.
[1:50:11 - 1:50:17] ▶
Yeah. And he actually referenced Gnostic thought at the time. He was talking about the archons,
[1:50:17 - 1:50:23] ▶
who were considered kind of almost, uh, imprisoners of the kind of lower material world and like Gnostic
[1:50:23 - 1:50:30] ▶
ideology. And you hear Gnostic thought, you know, run across a lot of ufology. Like, it seems like
[1:50:30 - 1:50:37] ▶
Jacques Vallée is roughly kind of Gnostic in his orientation. So do you think that we're living in
[1:50:37 - 1:50:43] ▶
some sort of lower prison planet and, you know, our senses are all there to sort of mislead us and
[1:50:43 - 1:50:51] ▶
we need to somehow escape in some sort of disembodied way? Or what's your sort of, you know, take on that?
[1:50:51 - 1:50:58] ▶
Yeah. You're talking about Fight Club again. Um, some of us are in prison, right? Uh, some of us are,
[1:50:58 - 1:51:05] ▶
some of us have seen the exit. Hmm. There was a famous, um, author, Wilhelm Reich,
[1:51:05 - 1:51:11] ▶
uh, you know, the inventor of the Oregon box and Oregon therapy and all of that. But he was a very
[1:51:12 - 1:51:18] ▶
well known. He was anti-communist and anti-fascist both at a time when that position was untenable
[1:51:18 - 1:51:24] ▶
in this country anyway. So he, he was against authoritarianism in general. And he wrote a book
[1:51:24 - 1:51:31] ▶
about that. And he has this image that I've never forgotten that we're all in this prison,
[1:51:31 - 1:51:39] ▶
we're all in this box, but there's an exit sign. There's a big sign with the shining letters, exit.
[1:51:39 - 1:51:45] ▶
Hmm. But the guy who points to that exit and says, there's the exit gets immediately beaten by
[1:51:45 - 1:51:50] ▶
everybody else in the prison. Hmm. And that image has stayed with me for a very long time. Hmm. You
[1:51:50 - 1:51:55] ▶
know, uh, there's an exit sign, right? Hmm. There's a way out. We, we know what the ways out, the way out
[1:51:55 - 1:52:01] ▶
is. We were just, you know, we're afraid of it. We're, um, we're too distracted by everything else. But
[1:52:01 - 1:52:09] ▶
the idea of becoming, uh, free in oneself is there. It's, it's just a question of wanting to do it
[1:52:09 - 1:52:15] ▶
badly enough that you're going to beat down the people who are trying to stop you from getting
[1:52:15 - 1:52:19] ▶
there to get to that exit. Right. So the whole celestial ascent thing, um, was an example of
[1:52:19 - 1:52:25] ▶
that of people understanding that there was a way out, but that it involved kind of reprogramming to
[1:52:25 - 1:52:31] ▶
use that awful term, but a reprogramming oneself, you know, uh, to, to get rid of a lot of the extraneous
[1:52:31 - 1:52:36] ▶
stuff that we're, we're, we're reacting to. We're constantly reacting to things, you know,
[1:52:36 - 1:52:40] ▶
kind of knee jerk reactions to things that we, this is good and this is bad. It's a binary choice,
[1:52:41 - 1:52:45] ▶
right? And it's not a binary choice. There's a tertiary choice. There's a, there's a choice beyond
[1:52:45 - 1:52:50] ▶
a and B has choice beyond plus and minus. Right. Um, I guess the, the, the Crowley people say zero
[1:52:51 - 1:52:58] ▶
equals two, you know, that's one way of formulating this idea, but there's a way of, of getting out of it.
[1:52:58 - 1:53:04] ▶
Um, but it's not, it's, it's almost impossible to describe and people have to get to it themselves,
[1:53:04 - 1:53:10] ▶
right? They have to get to it on their own path. They have to want to do it. Right. And they have
[1:53:10 - 1:53:14] ▶
to be willing to, to follow a path while maintaining a sense of humor. Once you lose that sense of humor,
[1:53:14 - 1:53:25] ▶
you're screwed because then you become a fanatic fanatics famously have no sense of humor.
[1:53:25 - 1:53:30] ▶
Mm-hmm . And what you need is that sense of humor, which is a sense of what I'm looking at may be
[1:53:30 - 1:53:34] ▶
real and it may not be. Yeah.
[1:53:34 - 1:53:36] ▶
Isn't it funny? What if it is real? Ha. Yeah.
[1:53:36 - 1:53:39] ▶
What if it isn't equally? Right. It's a way of negotiating territory that's very dangerous.
[1:53:39 - 1:53:44] ▶
Yeah, that's right. I think like a lot of people get really into synchronicities and when you put
[1:53:46 - 1:53:51] ▶
a ton of weight on the synchronicities, you're sort of in really bad territory. Oh yeah.
[1:53:51 - 1:53:54] ▶
And when you put no weight in synchronicities, you're also in bad territory. So it's like a
[1:53:54 - 1:53:59] ▶
Scylla and Charybdis between extreme randomness, materialist reductionism. And then on the other
[1:53:59 - 1:54:05] ▶
side, you're just drenched in meaning. Everything's meaningful in this sort of, you know, self-defeating
[1:54:05 - 1:54:11] ▶
way. So, so you think, wow, so there's a, there's a, there's a way out, but it's impossible to talk about,
[1:54:11 - 1:54:17] ▶
but you do talk about it because you write, you wrote a book about it, you know, Stairway to Heaven.
[1:54:17 - 1:54:21] ▶
All my books are about it. Yeah. Okay. Fascinating. They're all chapters of one book.
[1:54:21 - 1:54:25] ▶
Interesting. Well, that's amazing that you're saying that. Um, well, what do you mean when you
[1:54:25 - 1:54:30] ▶
say that exactly? You think, you think secret machines and sinister forces, it's all, it's all
[1:54:30 - 1:54:37] ▶
ultimately about. Even the Nazi books. I wrote three books on the third Reich. I mean, even there,
[1:54:37 - 1:54:44] ▶
I'm trying to point to what happened, right? What happened? Why do we have these reactions that we
[1:54:44 - 1:54:51] ▶
have about fascism? Right. There's a reason, you know, but we've forgotten the reason we've become
[1:54:51 - 1:54:57] ▶
kind of distracted by the Hugo boss outfits. You know, we get distracted by things that we don't
[1:54:57 - 1:55:03] ▶
really pay attention to. Um, but there's deeper things at work. And if we could understand that,
[1:55:03 - 1:55:09] ▶
we would be free of that as well, but we're not going to be until we get there until we get to that
[1:55:09 - 1:55:13] ▶
point until we come to terms with it. So the three books on that is to try to show people that there
[1:55:13 - 1:55:18] ▶
was a universal kind of Nazism. Right. And they were fascinated with occultism. Some of them were
[1:55:18 - 1:55:25] ▶
right. Uh, Himmler most famously. So he was, he ran an on an Arab organization. This to me was
[1:55:25 - 1:55:33] ▶
fascinating because I didn't believe it existed. I wrote my first book on holy alliance from the point of view.
[1:55:33 - 1:55:37] ▶
That I wanted to write a nonfiction version of the morning of the magicians. Right. I love that book,
[1:55:37 - 1:55:44] ▶
but it was, it was half fantasy and it was totally unsupported by documentation. So I wanted to know
[1:55:44 - 1:55:51] ▶
if any of that was really real. And when I was starting to write sinister forces, I said, let me
[1:55:51 - 1:55:56] ▶
go and check out this Nazi stuff because that could be relevant. Right. So I'm looking at that and, uh, I
[1:55:56 - 1:56:02] ▶
get invited, I think if I'd invited myself to the library of Congress and to the, um, to the archives,
[1:56:02 - 1:56:08] ▶
the national archives, and you have to go through a few hoops to get into the archives, but I wanted
[1:56:08 - 1:56:13] ▶
to see the captured German documents from the war. They had this bunch of microfilm and I walked in
[1:56:13 - 1:56:20] ▶
there and I told, uh, the archivist, very well known guy at the time. I asked him, I said, I'm looking
[1:56:20 - 1:56:27] ▶
for documents about this and about that, trying to word it gently. So I didn't sound like a total kook.
[1:56:27 - 1:56:32] ▶
And the guy said, Oh, you mean the, the SS on an air, but we have them all over here.
[1:56:32 - 1:56:36] ▶
So I said, cool. Right. So I'm now scrolling through microfilm
[1:56:37 - 1:56:41] ▶
and I'm looking at the Tibet expedition of 1938, the SS Tibet expedition of 1938. I'm looking at,
[1:56:41 - 1:56:51] ▶
you know, how do we do yoga postures in the shape of runes of Nordic runes? You know,
[1:56:52 - 1:56:57] ▶
how do we develop a Kabbalah? That's not Jewish, you know, and on and on, I'm looking at all this
[1:56:57 - 1:57:02] ▶
stuff and it's just masses of documentation. That's a lot of them signed by Heil Hitler,
[1:57:02 - 1:57:06] ▶
by Heinrich Himmler. Right. And I'm, I'm staring at this and I'm thinking, you know, how come nobody's
[1:57:06 - 1:57:12] ▶
writing about this? All these books on Nazi occultism and nobody's looking at the real documents,
[1:57:12 - 1:57:17] ▶
the, the, the, the original papers. Didn't they go to Mount Kailash looking for some underground
[1:57:17 - 1:57:21] ▶
civilization there? Among other things. Yeah. But they, they went all the way into Tibet.
[1:57:21 - 1:57:26] ▶
Right. And they're measuring skulls with calipers. Right. I have photographs of that. So wild. And
[1:57:26 - 1:57:33] ▶
their, their fascination with Antarctica, right. Came from Hyperborea, which was the first root race.
[1:57:33 - 1:57:38] ▶
Yeah. If you look at kind of theosophy and Madame Blavatsky and stuff, didn't the,
[1:57:38 - 1:57:43] ▶
wasn't a, uh, theosophy like the swastika kind of came from theosophy, right? That they took on the
[1:57:44 - 1:57:50] ▶
Nazis. Now you're back in my territory again. Okay. The, um, as I'm called on Holy, um,
[1:57:50 - 1:57:55] ▶
Unholy Alliance pointed out, you know, the, the swastika was famously imprinted on Blavatsky's original
[1:57:55 - 1:58:01] ▶
books as the symbol of the Aryans. And the whole idea of the Aryans being this, the current
[1:58:01 - 1:58:07] ▶
spiritually advanced race, right. Uh, came from Blavatsky. Uh, and there was a group of, um,
[1:58:08 - 1:58:16] ▶
militia in 1918, 1919, you know, the, the war ended in 1918, World War I. Uh, there was the Russian
[1:58:16 - 1:58:25] ▶
revolution. And then there was a communist, an almost communist takeover of Germany at the time.
[1:58:25 - 1:58:30] ▶
There was a lot of socialism, a lot of communism, different parties fighting each other,
[1:58:30 - 1:58:34] ▶
but the right wing types were army veterans, right. Who had fought against, uh, Russia during
[1:58:34 - 1:58:40] ▶
the first world war. So they formed independent militias, Fry Corps, as they call them. And one
[1:58:40 - 1:58:46] ▶
of them was the Stahlhelm and the steel helmet and on their helmets were emblazoned the swastikas.
[1:58:46 - 1:58:52] ▶
This was as early as 1918 and 1919. So there was a, um, an assassination of members of the Tule
[1:58:52 - 1:59:00] ▶
Gesellschaft, uh, on April 30th in 1919. Now the Tule Gesellschaft was a German secret society,
[1:59:00 - 1:59:08] ▶
like we've been talking about. Uh, and they had the swastika as their symbol, right. This was long
[1:59:08 - 1:59:13] ▶
before Hitler showed up. So the swastika was their symbol and it was a symbol of the Aryans. And they got
[1:59:13 - 1:59:18] ▶
that again from the theosophical writings and pseudo-theosophical writings, people copying Blavatsky.
[1:59:18 - 1:59:23] ▶
And so that was like, this was it. This is our symbol, the symbol of the Aryans. We're Aryans,
[1:59:24 - 1:59:28] ▶
you know. Um, a lot of them would not have passed the blood test at the time, but they consider
[1:59:28 - 1:59:34] ▶
themselves Aryans. So these people were massacred on April 30th, Walpurgis Nacht in Germany. Uh, and it
[1:59:34 - 1:59:41] ▶
led to this outcry among the right wing groups. So the right wing groups and the, and the left wing
[1:59:41 - 1:59:47] ▶
groups had this fight, this pitched battle in the streets of Munich. These were occultists fighting
[1:59:47 - 1:59:53] ▶
on the streets of Munich, right? It was bizarre as if you had given the golden dawn machine guns
[1:59:53 - 1:59:59] ▶
and said, have at it, you know, it was just so strange. And that, that, that fascinated me. I said,
[2:00:00 - 2:00:05] ▶
this is weird. And what do we know about the Tule Gesellschaft? Not much, but the library of Congress had a
[2:00:05 - 2:00:11] ▶
lot of information on it as it turned out. So not just the archives, but the library of Congress.
[2:00:11 - 2:00:16] ▶
So I had access to that information and I'm going, oh my God, this was all going on. This was not made
[2:00:16 - 2:00:21] ▶
up, right? Pauls and Bergier who wrote Morning of the Magicians, they were kind of winging it a little
[2:00:21 - 2:00:27] ▶
bit, but it was based on something kind of real, you know, and this is, nobody was writing the truth
[2:00:27 - 2:00:32] ▶
about it. And I thought that was my job. Now I've got access to this. And then I went to South America.
[2:00:32 - 2:00:38] ▶
That's another story. But I, you know, this whole thing was, I wanted to put this out there.
[2:00:38 - 2:00:41] ▶
There is something, yes, Virginia, there is, you know, a Nazi occult thing. There is a thing that
[2:00:41 - 2:00:48] ▶
Himmler was in charge of. Yeah. And the, the Antarctica expedition was very real.
[2:00:48 - 2:00:54] ▶
Right. And, uh, you know, there's, I mean, the whole, if you look at like all the, the, the, the,
[2:00:54 - 2:00:59] ▶
SS patches, they're all, you know, it's like black sun. It's all this sort of occult symbology. So I think
[2:00:59 - 2:01:04] ▶
it's sort of hidden in plain sight and was clearly, you know, I mean, the Indiana Jones narrative of,
[2:01:04 - 2:01:10] ▶
you know, them looking for the Ark of the Covenant maybe isn't, isn't so off. I guess the, the, the,
[2:01:10 - 2:01:15] ▶
the follow-up question to that though is like, what are the implications? Because there's some
[2:01:15 - 2:01:20] ▶
Occam's razor explanation that this is just, you know, the fascinations of, of, of, you know, the,
[2:01:20 - 2:01:25] ▶
the ultimate hubris of this kind of, you know, uh, Napoleon, Alexander, the great type, the machinations of
[2:01:25 - 2:01:32] ▶
this sort of ridiculous, you know, mind of, of, of Hitler. Um, and then there's some other
[2:01:32 - 2:01:37] ▶
explanation, which is maybe this conferred some sort of local power that would then blow up in
[2:01:37 - 2:01:44] ▶
the faces of, of the Nazis. Cause it was this Faustian bargain, but you know, they were drawing
[2:01:44 - 2:01:49] ▶
from some sort of non-human intelligence or, or, or something else. What, what do you think?
[2:01:49 - 2:01:54] ▶
Well, you know, all, all those points have been made and I understand them and I understand the
[2:01:54 - 2:02:00] ▶
resistance of, of academia to, to embrace this story as they have reacted to it. Um,
[2:02:00 - 2:02:07] ▶
but the documents don't lie. It's just a question. Do you interpret them the same way?
[2:02:07 - 2:02:11] ▶
The Anna Nerba was a real organization and it was called ancestral heritage
[2:02:11 - 2:02:15] ▶
because what Himmler was trying to do was completely remove
[2:02:16 - 2:02:19] ▶
Christianity and Judaism from the German people and replace it with a Nordic version,
[2:02:19 - 2:02:25] ▶
which meant a pagan version, which in the context of 1930s Germany meant basically an occult version.
[2:02:25 - 2:02:30] ▶
Mm. Right. So they replaced the rituals of a baptism, for instance, with a,
[2:02:30 - 2:02:35] ▶
a Nordic style christening. They replaced the marriage rights with a Nordic style marriage right.
[2:02:35 - 2:02:40] ▶
They were deliberately trying to do this. So it wasn't Hitler writing
[2:02:40 - 2:02:43] ▶
poetry to the Nordic gods and as a soldier in World War one. Yes, he was. He wrote it.
[2:02:43 - 2:02:48] ▶
They're reprinted in, I think it's Toland's biography of Hitler. So the poems are there.
[2:02:48 - 2:02:53] ▶
He was writing to Odin and Thor. Right. So, and that, okay. And then this is where
[2:02:53 - 2:02:57] ▶
things get very speculative and weird, but you, I mean, one of the constant sort of tropes in UFO
[2:02:57 - 2:03:04] ▶
stories, UFO abduction cases is the Nordics. It's always the Nordics, the greys or the reptilians.
[2:03:05 - 2:03:11] ▶
Um, the Nordics seem particularly interesting, powerful, like these sort of perfect
[2:03:11 - 2:03:16] ▶
humans or whatever. Do you think there was any sort of Nordic Nazi relationship?
[2:03:17 - 2:03:23] ▶
Okay. Okay. We have to define our terms. There's so many terms in that sentence. I don't know where to
[2:03:23 - 2:03:31] ▶
start. Um, Nordic Nazi and relationship. Um, not just that goes beyond the Nazi fascination with
[2:03:31 - 2:03:39] ▶
Nordic mythology. You know what I mean?
[2:03:39 - 2:03:41] ▶
Um, okay. My short answer is no. Okay. But let me qualify what I'm saying. They were fascinated by it.
[2:03:42 - 2:03:50] ▶
Um, Himmler was fascinated by this. In fact, they tried to prove there was an Aryan race all over the
[2:03:50 - 2:03:55] ▶
globe. They sent archaeologists looking everywhere for traces of swastikas wherever they could find
[2:03:55 - 2:04:00] ▶
them thinking that was the key. Right. And that comes from Blavatsky. I mean, give me a break. Right.
[2:04:00 - 2:04:05] ▶
But it got lost in the, in the sauce there as they, you know, went off on this tangent.
[2:04:05 - 2:04:10] ▶
So now they're saying, okay, this is, you know, we find the swastika in India. They must be an Aryan
[2:04:10 - 2:04:15] ▶
relationship there. We find it in China. It must be there. You know, I've seen swastikas on buildings
[2:04:15 - 2:04:20] ▶
in Malaysia and Indonesia, but they're Buddhist symbols right there. So, but they were looking
[2:04:20 - 2:04:25] ▶
for this. They were looking for this proof. They had the, this was not a scientific process, right?
[2:04:25 - 2:04:31] ▶
They had the result they wanted. They're looking for stuff to confirm it. They didn't look for stuff
[2:04:31 - 2:04:35] ▶
that didn't confirm it, only for stuff that confirmed it. So here's the evidence that confirms
[2:04:35 - 2:04:39] ▶
our story. So this is part of the problem there. They wanted Nordic because they wanted to get rid of
[2:04:39 - 2:04:44] ▶
Christianity and Judaism. They had to get rid of Christianity because of Judaism, right? And they
[2:04:44 - 2:04:49] ▶
were against Judaism for whatever reasons they were against Judaism for. It was, anti-Semitism was
[2:04:49 - 2:04:55] ▶
popular in Europe, all over Europe, Eastern Europe. I mean, the protocols of the elders of Zion came
[2:04:55 - 2:05:00] ▶
out of Russia, right? So that started this whole thing. People believed it was true. So, you know,
[2:05:00 - 2:05:06] ▶
the Jews are having a secret meeting and they're discussing the takeover of the world.
[2:05:06 - 2:05:09] ▶
Um, so that document got published and it's still being published. It's published. It was published in
[2:05:10 - 2:05:14] ▶
South Africa all the time. Translations were published all over Asia. Translations published in
[2:05:14 - 2:05:20] ▶
South America. Like this is a true thing. This is a meme now that's become true in the eyes of many
[2:05:20 - 2:05:25] ▶
people. I was asked about it at an academic conference in Indonesia, right? So, I mean,
[2:05:25 - 2:05:32] ▶
this stuff is there. Uh, I was met a terrorist, the leader, the guy who created the Bali bombings in 2002.
[2:05:32 - 2:05:40] ▶
Uh, and he's telling me, you know, it's the protocols of the elders of Zion. Like it's real.
[2:05:40 - 2:05:44] ▶
Hmm. I'm telling him there's like two Jews in your entire country, right? You're not really suffering from
[2:05:44 - 2:05:51] ▶
Jewish invasion. But anyway, that was his, his perspective, right? So this has become this thing.
[2:05:51 - 2:05:56] ▶
This has become a problem that we cannot get our way around because history has made it kind of real,
[2:05:56 - 2:06:02] ▶
even though it's not real. We know it was a hoax invented by the secret police in Russia during the
[2:06:02 - 2:06:09] ▶
time of the czar, even before the Soviet Union. So this whole thing becomes this, this problem,
[2:06:09 - 2:06:16] ▶
right? And the Nordics become the solution to this problem. We're really Aryans. We're really
[2:06:16 - 2:06:21] ▶
Nordics. We don't belong in this situation that we're in. You know, we're in this, we lost the
[2:06:21 - 2:06:26] ▶
first world war. It must be because of the Jews. Can't be because of us. It can't be because of we
[2:06:26 - 2:06:31] ▶
extended ourselves and trying to invade Russia for crying out loud. Napoleon could have told you not to
[2:06:31 - 2:06:35] ▶
do that, right? So all of these mistakes we made are not ours. They're somebody else's. So naturally,
[2:06:35 - 2:06:44] ▶
they want to make contact with their source. And they found their source in a guy called Weistor,
[2:06:44 - 2:06:50] ▶
Karl Willigut, right? Who claimed he had photographic memory of what it was like back in the day when
[2:06:50 - 2:06:58] ▶
there were only Nordics on the planet. Okay. Wow. And Himmler put him, make, gave him a,
[2:06:58 - 2:07:04] ▶
an officer in the SS. So he's in the SS along with all these other psychos, right?
[2:07:04 - 2:07:11] ▶
And he's giving all this stuff to Himmler. This is what, I'm going into a trance now. I can see it.
[2:07:12 - 2:07:16] ▶
This is what happened at this time. This is what happened at that time.
[2:07:16 - 2:07:18] ▶
And did he say it was like Hyperborea? Like this?
[2:07:18 - 2:07:20] ▶
Oh yeah, really? It was Tula, right?
[2:07:20 - 2:07:22] ▶
So they're buying it.
[2:07:25 - 2:07:27] ▶
And Himmler, one or two cards short of a deck, right? He builds Weifelsberg Castle,
[2:07:29 - 2:07:35] ▶
right? Which I went to and I did a TV thing like 10, 15 years ago, 20 years ago for that,
[2:07:35 - 2:07:41] ▶
on that. And that's a beautiful castle, but was in disrepair when Himmler took it over.
[2:07:42 - 2:07:47] ▶
He refurbished it with concentration camp labor and he built basically a round table for his 12
[2:07:47 - 2:07:56] ▶
nights to sit around and have seances, right? And, you know, bring down the spirits of the
[2:07:56 - 2:08:02] ▶
ancient Teutonic kings.
[2:08:02 - 2:08:03] ▶
So they wanted to do this. The physical evidence is there. Swastikas in the floor,
[2:08:05 - 2:08:10] ▶
swastikas in the ceiling, you know, the niches where they're going to put the urns of the deceased SS
[2:08:10 - 2:08:15] ▶
But then there's a question of, were they interacting with anything? And I
[2:08:16 - 2:08:19] ▶
think in your model reality, you would say yes.
[2:08:19 - 2:08:22] ▶
And then who knows what it is?
[2:08:23 - 2:08:24] ▶
But it could have been anything.
[2:08:24 - 2:08:25] ▶
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It could be totally trickstery.
[2:08:25 - 2:08:27] ▶
It could have been those guys from the Australian consulate telling us, you know.
[2:08:27 - 2:08:30] ▶
Well, simultaneous to that, you have these neo-pagan rituals that they all have to go through.
[2:08:30 - 2:08:34] ▶
You had Wernher von Braun going through these rituals. His mentor, Herman Oberth, on record,
[2:08:35 - 2:08:39] ▶
saying that non-human intelligence allowed them to build rockets to go to space, you know?
[2:08:39 - 2:08:45] ▶
That's the secret machines, yeah.
[2:08:45 - 2:08:46] ▶
There you go. And something else you get into with secret machines, which is fascinating, is
[2:08:46 - 2:08:51] ▶
there's always this question of like, is there some bizarre Nazi connection with Roswell itself?
[2:08:51 - 2:08:57] ▶
And some of the early contactees, you talk about Adamski, George Hunt Williamson.
[2:08:57 - 2:09:02] ▶
Is there some sort of connection with some of these early UFO crashes in Nazi Germany, which,
[2:09:02 - 2:09:09] ▶
you know, by all kind of conventional historical accounts, was over by 1945? And Roswell is two
[2:09:09 - 2:09:16] ▶
years later in 1947.
[2:09:16 - 2:09:18] ▶
Well, is there a connection? I think so. I think we made a pretty good case for it in secret machines,
[2:09:18 - 2:09:24] ▶
based on the information that we have. And that is something that people don't realize. We think of
[2:09:24 - 2:09:30] ▶
Operation Paperclip as a purely American phenomenon, which it was, but the Russians had their own
[2:09:31 - 2:09:37] ▶
version of Paperclip. And the Russians brought more than 3,000 scientists and their families into
[2:09:37 - 2:09:42] ▶
Russia, whether by force or, you know, hook or by crook, but they did. And they built an entire city.
[2:09:42 - 2:09:48] ▶
I believe it's in what is now Belarus, if not Ukraine. It's in the book also, with a precise location.
[2:09:49 - 2:09:55] ▶
They built this operation there to renew all the experimental programs that had been going on at
[2:09:55 - 2:10:02] ▶
Pinamunda at Nordhausen to bring it all back to life again. And they got as many scientists and
[2:10:02 - 2:10:07] ▶
technologies and engineers, technologists, as they could. And one of their programs, and it was revealed
[2:10:07 - 2:10:14] ▶
when the, after the Soviet Union fell, some of this documentation became available, was to build a
[2:10:14 - 2:10:20] ▶
kind of flying saucer. And it was based on the Horton model. Now the Horton model, you can find
[2:10:20 - 2:10:27] ▶
this on the internet everywhere. The diagrams are public information now, was a flying disc,
[2:10:27 - 2:10:33] ▶
but with the bottom, one side of it sort of chewed out. So it was kind of a C-shaped craft. The kind
[2:10:33 - 2:10:41] ▶
that Kenneth Arnold saw, you know, in 1947, the same design, without him knowing, at the time he
[2:10:41 - 2:10:49] ▶
wouldn't have known, that this was the design of the Horton craft. So the Hortons, the two brothers,
[2:10:49 - 2:10:54] ▶
one of which wound up in Argentina developing craft for Peron, and another wound up staying in Germany,
[2:10:56 - 2:11:03] ▶
and nobody seemed to want him for anything, for whatever reason. I think he was the test pilot for
[2:11:03 - 2:11:08] ▶
a lot of the Horton brothers devices, so maybe he wasn't considered a technician or an engineer or a
[2:11:08 - 2:11:14] ▶
scientist. But there were enough Russian scientists, they could rebuild it and see if they could make it fly.
[2:11:14 - 2:11:19] ▶
So with 3000 scientists in Russia, with Nazi presence all around the world after the war,
[2:11:21 - 2:11:29] ▶
it's a possibility. And I'll tell you why. And I was thinking to bring it with me, and I guess I didn't
[2:11:29 - 2:11:34] ▶
think, I didn't realize our conversation would go in this direction. And it's a good thing I didn't.
[2:11:34 - 2:11:38] ▶
It's a big, heavy thing. The U.S. Congress published in June of 1945, before the war in Asia was over,
[2:11:38 - 2:11:47] ▶
they published a report on basically what was the Maison Rouge meeting that happened in 1944
[2:11:48 - 2:11:55] ▶
in Strasbourg. The SS had ordered the heads of German industry at a meeting. This was after the D-Day invasion,
[2:11:55 - 2:12:05] ▶
when the handwriting was on the wall. And they knew they were going to lose this thing one way or the
[2:12:06 - 2:12:10] ▶
other. They basically told the leaders of German industry to expatriate as much of their wealth,
[2:12:10 - 2:12:19] ▶
as much of their technology, of necessary personnel as possible overseas to get it out of the hands of
[2:12:19 - 2:12:28] ▶
the Allies. Now, in June of 1945, we already had this information and they published it as part of
[2:12:28 - 2:12:34] ▶
the congressional record. It's this thick. It's at least two inches thick printed. And you're going
[2:12:34 - 2:12:41] ▶
through and you're looking at all the companies that the Germans had overseas. All of the industries they
[2:12:41 - 2:12:48] ▶
were involved in that they owned at that time, including a lot of real estate in South America,
[2:12:48 - 2:12:54] ▶
literal real estate, ranches, haciendas, all sorts of places that they had bought in the years leading
[2:12:54 - 2:13:02] ▶
up to the end of the war. And then, in addition to that, we find when the Clinton administration ordered
[2:13:02 - 2:13:09] ▶
an investigation as to Nazi gold and what happened to the Nazi gold that was missing, they found just
[2:13:09 - 2:13:17] ▶
within a few months because they didn't have a lot of financing to continue this for a long time.
[2:13:17 - 2:13:21] ▶
That committee only lasted a short while. They found 40 tons of gold, 40 tons of gold that had
[2:13:22 - 2:13:28] ▶
been shipped out of the bank of Lisbon by submarine. 20 tons went to Macau. Well, they all went to Macau.
[2:13:28 - 2:13:35] ▶
20 tons went into China and 20 tons went into Indonesia. That 20 tons of gold probably jump-started what
[2:13:35 - 2:13:42] ▶
Sukarno used to call the Revolutionary Fund, which was going to be an anti-IMF, anti-World Bank,
[2:13:42 - 2:13:48] ▶
that he had planned for, that Halmar Schacht, Hitler's former finance minister, had asked Sukarno to do.
[2:13:48 - 2:13:56] ▶
Okay, he had met Sukarno. He had been denosified,
[2:13:56 - 2:14:00] ▶
shocked, and it wound up in Indonesia visiting Sukarno saying, you have to build an Islamic crescent
[2:14:00 - 2:14:05] ▶
to defend against Chinese communism. Right? And the best way to do that is start up your own fund,
[2:14:05 - 2:14:10] ▶
you know, get all these other countries that are non-aligned with either China,
[2:14:10 - 2:14:14] ▶
Russia, or the United States, and have it based here in Jakarta.
[2:14:14 - 2:14:17] ▶
Wow! So, is the implication that Roswell was Horton Brothers' technology that might have gotten into
[2:14:17 - 2:14:27] ▶
It could be Soviet hands, it could have been somebody else's hands because the Nazis had assets
[2:14:29 - 2:14:34] ▶
everywhere. Now, they didn't have assets to the kind you would think would develop, you know,
[2:14:34 - 2:14:40] ▶
what we think was a prototypical flying saucer. The amount of, I mean, the problem is we don't know
[2:14:40 - 2:14:46] ▶
what a real flying saucer is, right? Yeah.
[2:14:46 - 2:14:49] ▶
All the reports that we have say there's no instrumentation, there's nothing in there.
[2:14:49 - 2:14:54] ▶
It's really tricky because you do have real documented evidence that Hans Kammler was running
[2:14:54 - 2:15:02] ▶
this thing called Skoda Works from 1942 to 45 in, you know, Breslau and Pilsen, you know,
[2:15:02 - 2:15:10] ▶
modern Czechoslovakia and Poland. And they were building what seemed to be saucers. Like, Rudolf Schreiber,
[2:15:11 - 2:15:18] ▶
who was a technician there, said that one climbed to 40,000 feet in a few seconds. You know, Richard Mita,
[2:15:18 - 2:15:24] ▶
had all these plans for saucers. You had Victor Schauberger, very famously, this naturalist,
[2:15:24 - 2:15:28] ▶
who claimed he had zero point energy machines and, you know, they were sort of saucer shaped.
[2:15:28 - 2:15:32] ▶
I think it was called an impeller because it was like the centripetal, not centrifugal for us.
[2:15:32 - 2:15:37] ▶
So it wasn't outward moving, it was inward moving and it would cause sort of thrust as a result.
[2:15:37 - 2:15:42] ▶
And so you had all this evidence that they were working on things like that. You also have a book by this
[2:15:42 - 2:15:46] ▶
guy, British journalist named Tom Auguston about this sort of great game dividing up of Skoda Works,
[2:15:46 - 2:15:52] ▶
of Kammler Staub between the Soviets and the U.S. So we know that this was like a vital strategic
[2:15:52 - 2:15:59] ▶
importance. We also, I think now know due to Air Force documents that Kammler himself,
[2:15:59 - 2:16:04] ▶
who is this ruthless Nazi, I think Albert Speer, who was head of Nazi armaments said,
[2:16:04 - 2:16:10] ▶
you know, he was the most ruthless man I was ever forced to collaborate with. And you're talking about
[2:16:10 - 2:16:14] ▶
a guy who worked with like, you know, Himmler and Goebbels and Hitler and, you know, it's like,
[2:16:14 - 2:16:20] ▶
God has to be, I think he had a, I think,
[2:16:20 - 2:16:21] ▶
It is a high bar. I think Kammler had a plan to assassinate, uh, Hitler in, in the, in the final
[2:16:22 - 2:16:28] ▶
days of the Third Reich. So crazy guy. Um, so we know that there were real plans to build like this
[2:16:28 - 2:16:34] ▶
flying saucer. We don't know how far they got. And then Annie Jacobson writes about in her book,
[2:16:34 - 2:16:39] ▶
Area 51, that there was this attempted, you know, they really wanted to find the Horton brothers
[2:16:39 - 2:16:45] ▶
because they were building these sort of saucers. But then you also have people at Roswell and
[2:16:45 - 2:16:51] ▶
they're like, Oh, weird being with three or four fingers and toes came out of the craft and was
[2:16:51 - 2:16:58] ▶
definitely not human. And so those two things just don't line up or comport at all. Obviously,
[2:16:58 - 2:17:04] ▶
there's disinformation somewhere. Somewhere. Yeah. And so your, but your bet would be the disinfo
[2:17:04 - 2:17:09] ▶
would be on the kind of NHI alien front and that this might be prosaic human technology.
[2:17:09 - 2:17:13] ▶
I think, yeah, I think it's a possibility that what crashed in Roswell was, was human
[2:17:14 - 2:17:18] ▶
technology prosaic. I'm not sure. Yeah, sure. Exotic human. Exotic human.
[2:17:18 - 2:17:22] ▶
But remember when you're talking about Roswell and you're talking about Wright-Patterson,
[2:17:23 - 2:17:28] ▶
you're talking about all the Nazi scientists, uh, Walter Dornberger from Peenemunde, his first
[2:17:28 - 2:17:35] ▶
posting was to Wright-Patterson. He was in Wright-Patterson when the Roswell debris was brought,
[2:17:35 - 2:17:41] ▶
was brought in by trains. So wild. So he was there. And so, okay.
[2:17:41 - 2:17:45] ▶
Who else would you have wanted to look at that? And he was head of, I think, a, a four V2
[2:17:45 - 2:17:50] ▶
program in, in Nazi Germany. Yeah. He ran Peenemunde. He ran Peenemunde. He was, uh,
[2:17:50 - 2:17:54] ▶
the boss of, uh, what's his name? Wernher von Braun. Wernher von Braun. Yeah.
[2:17:54 - 2:17:58] ▶
That's okay. Wow. So he was at Oberammergau and yeah, it's interesting, you know? And, and I think
[2:17:58 - 2:18:04] ▶
you, you do have also the Avro car project, which was an attempt to, to build a flying saucer.
[2:18:04 - 2:18:09] ▶
And it originally was in Canada, but then it moved over to Wright-Patterson as project Y.
[2:18:10 - 2:18:14] ▶
Yeah. And there was always this feeling that project Y was a front for something deeper,
[2:18:14 - 2:18:18] ▶
but it was, there were, there are videos of them trying to like fly this flying saucer just had a,
[2:18:18 - 2:18:24] ▶
you know, radial gas turbine engine. So kind of like when I was a kid, yeah, when I was a kid in
[2:18:24 - 2:18:30] ▶
the, in the 19 late 1950s, you could buy a plastic model of the Avro. That's wild. That's so wild.
[2:18:30 - 2:18:36] ▶
I had it when I was a kid. It's crazy to see. I mean, there, it looks like a flying saucer.
[2:18:36 - 2:18:41] ▶
There's like, you know, um, there, they really does. There's a, a wind turbine photos of it being
[2:18:41 - 2:18:46] ▶
tested. And it looks like you're like, I I'm in star Wars right now. Like this, it's remarkable.
[2:18:46 - 2:18:52] ▶
And then we, we do, I think have documented evidence that Richard Mita, who was from
[2:18:52 - 2:18:56] ▶
Skoda works and commerce stop made his way to at least the Avro car project that was going on in
[2:18:57 - 2:19:03] ▶
Canada, which was British aircraft and John Frost and in partnership with the American CIA. So you
[2:19:03 - 2:19:09] ▶
have one piece of the puzzle there. Um, you have Henry, Henry Kawanda, who was famous for the Kawanda effect.
[2:19:09 - 2:19:16] ▶
Oh, right. He had basically the first patent on a flying saucer in 1936. Um, he was a Romanian,
[2:19:16 - 2:19:23] ▶
but he was living in Vichy France and he was overtaken by, you know, Nazis, obviously.
[2:19:23 - 2:19:27] ▶
And he was consulting on project Y at Wright-Patterson as well. So we know that,
[2:19:28 - 2:19:32] ▶
um, you have, uh, another guy named Eric Henry wing, who was, um, had a special projects at Wright-Patterson.
[2:19:33 - 2:19:40] ▶
He went to school with Victor Schauberger and then he moved over to Kirtland Air Force Base right after
[2:19:40 - 2:19:45] ▶
that. So you have all these Nazis who are working at Wright-Patter. Um, which is phenomenal because
[2:19:45 - 2:19:51] ▶
everybody that actually worked for us during the war lost their security clearances, right? So
[2:19:52 - 2:19:57] ▶
Oppenheimer loses his security clearance. Jack Parsons loses his, right? Um, all of his,
[2:19:57 - 2:20:03] ▶
the entourage around the suicide squad, right? All the people who founded basically JPL wound up losing
[2:20:03 - 2:20:08] ▶
their security clearances. They couldn't work anymore. And we moved the Nazis in our enemies,
[2:20:08 - 2:20:12] ▶
right? Yeah. And we put them in charge. The whole thing was just to me mind boggling that that would
[2:20:12 - 2:20:17] ▶
happen that way, you know, but it just did. Right. So mind boggling. And it doesn't make a lot of sense,
[2:20:17 - 2:20:23] ▶
but in the political environment of the time, it kind of does, you know, all things being equal in
[2:20:23 - 2:20:29] ▶
context. But when you look at it now, you're thinking some, why did we bring in that many? Yeah. And
[2:20:29 - 2:20:33] ▶
then we realized the Russians brought in three times that many, right? So wild.
[2:20:33 - 2:20:38] ▶
So they were in contact. The American groups and the Russian groups were in contact. They found
[2:20:38 - 2:20:43] ▶
that out later. Wow. Because the, the, the Russian scientists they had in New Mexico,
[2:20:43 - 2:20:47] ▶
right? We're going into the village, into the local towns and they were sending mail back to Germany,
[2:20:48 - 2:20:54] ▶
which would then get sent over by courier to the Russian scientists in the Soviet Union.
[2:20:54 - 2:20:59] ▶
Whoa. So there was contact being made.
[2:20:59 - 2:21:00] ▶
Of course that was shut down once it was found out, but it was going on for a while. Nobody
[2:21:00 - 2:21:05] ▶
knows what was being discussed.
[2:21:05 - 2:21:06] ▶
Was it contact between the former Nazi factions of both? Wow. That's pretty fascinating. Yeah. I
[2:21:06 - 2:21:11] ▶
think there's some story of Wernher von Braun's, you know, um, giving off trade secrets at the border
[2:21:11 - 2:21:16] ▶
in Mexico or whatever. So there is maybe this like rogue Nazi network post-World War II that was like
[2:21:16 - 2:21:22] ▶
still vital for a little bit. If there was a rogue Nazi network post-World War II in the United States,
[2:21:22 - 2:21:28] ▶
how much more likely it was that it was in other countries where they didn't care.
[2:21:28 - 2:21:31] ▶
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Even more likely. So more likely. So there is a likelihood,
[2:21:31 - 2:21:37] ▶
statistical likeliness. Let's, let's not a, you know, statistics can be bent either way,
[2:21:37 - 2:21:41] ▶
but statistically there was so many Nazi assets around the world, money that we couldn't trace.
[2:21:41 - 2:21:46] ▶
Yeah. Assets we couldn't trace. Technology. I mean,
[2:21:46 - 2:21:50] ▶
that famous submarine that they stopped, it had the Messerschmitt, you know, in pieces in it and all the
[2:21:50 - 2:21:54] ▶
uranium, you know, and the engineers that was going to Japan that supposedly Oppenheimer visited
[2:21:54 - 2:22:00] ▶
at a crucial time because he couldn't figure out how to make the freaking bomb work.
[2:22:00 - 2:22:03] ▶
Wow. Right. Yeah. And it's, it's even Wernher von Braun and, you know, like the, look at the early,
[2:22:03 - 2:22:09] ▶
you know, NASA Apollo program, um, and NASA Saturn program, it was literally a transplantation
[2:22:09 - 2:22:16] ▶
of the Nazi program space program. It was, it was Wernher von Braun, Arthur Rudolph and 129 Nazi
[2:22:16 - 2:22:24] ▶
scientists. And that was it. And so it's just like, you are really dependent on their knowledge somehow.
[2:22:24 - 2:22:30] ▶
And what was the overall context, right? If you look at it, you're looking at a geopolitical sense
[2:22:30 - 2:22:35] ▶
to the United States government at the time, we preferred to have the Nazis so that we could
[2:22:35 - 2:22:45] ▶
fight the communists. It was again, a binary situation. So we buried records of these guys.
[2:22:45 - 2:22:52] ▶
We denazified them ourselves. They should never have been many of them. They were Nazis to their death,
[2:22:53 - 2:22:59] ▶
right? They did not suddenly become Americans because they were living in, you know,
[2:22:59 - 2:23:02] ▶
Arkansas or someplace where, or Alabama. So they, they suddenly did not suddenly become
[2:23:02 - 2:23:10] ▶
our defenders or our allies. They were just there being paid and saved from going to the Soviet Union.
[2:23:11 - 2:23:17] ▶
So the amount of trust we placed in these people, they didn't deserve what we did, right? They didn't
[2:23:17 - 2:23:24] ▶
deserve the trust from my perspective. We had fought against them. They were developing bombs that they
[2:23:24 - 2:23:29] ▶
reigned on London during the Blitz. These were people who killed without thinking. That was their
[2:23:29 - 2:23:34] ▶
job, right? To give them the credit that way. They were working for that regime. But now we bring them
[2:23:34 - 2:23:39] ▶
over and we find out that philosophically they're Nazis, right? Because the communists are the bigger
[2:23:39 - 2:23:47] ▶
threat, which is why in my other books I talk about, since we're talking about the range of it,
[2:23:47 - 2:23:51] ▶
I talk about the Catholic Church, you know, and the fact that they saw it the same way. The communists
[2:23:51 - 2:23:58] ▶
were the worst enemy. We can work with the Nazis, right? Even though the Nazis also want to do away
[2:23:58 - 2:24:04] ▶
with us, but at least they're not communists. They're not godless. You know, I mean, Odin is a god,
[2:24:04 - 2:24:10] ▶
right? So the idea being, let's, let's work with the Nazis. Let's hide them. Let's get them. Let's,
[2:24:10 - 2:24:16] ▶
let's give them false paperwork, get them out to, you know, Bolivia and Argentina and places like that.
[2:24:16 - 2:24:20] ▶
Is there something about like, you know, the kind of Norse mythology, other pagan mythology
[2:24:20 - 2:24:27] ▶
that involves kind of the quote unquote old gods or little G gods. And, you know,
[2:24:27 - 2:24:33] ▶
you think about like ritual sacrifice or scapegoating cycles, somehow satiating those gods and then
[2:24:33 - 2:24:39] ▶
Christianity being sort of inherently apocalyptic because it stops those cycles because it takes the
[2:24:39 - 2:24:44] ▶
side of the, of the scapegoat. Right.
[2:24:44 - 2:24:47] ▶
And, uh, you know, I'm not necessarily biased towards any ideology here. I'm, I'm, I'm Jewish,
[2:24:47 - 2:24:52] ▶
but like, is there, is there something somehow like very dangerous about the, like the stopping
[2:24:52 - 2:24:59] ▶
of the scapegoating cycles to the point where if there are sinister forces going on above our heads,
[2:24:59 - 2:25:05] ▶
they're going to like move the like fascist rogue elements around no matter who's in power in order
[2:25:05 - 2:25:13] ▶
to keep the date, the cycle going. Like if we are in some sort of prison planet or something,
[2:25:13 - 2:25:19] ▶
that's how you'd like keep the thing, the machine running.
[2:25:19 - 2:25:22] ▶
Yeah, maybe. Um, I, it's, it's, it's possible we could look at it from that point of view.
[2:25:22 - 2:25:26] ▶
We don't have a lot of evidence to, to, to, to enlarge it, but we do have the idea that if you
[2:25:26 - 2:25:34] ▶
have a Catholic church that's willing to make that choice to cut a deal with the people who really
[2:25:34 - 2:25:44] ▶
wanted to destroy them in the first place, um, because communism is the bigger threat.
[2:25:44 - 2:25:51] ▶
Why would communism be the bigger threat? Because communism is fundamentally anti-religious,
[2:25:51 - 2:25:59] ▶
right? Religion is the opiate of the people famously, uh, misquotations basically, but that's
[2:25:59 - 2:26:06] ▶
what it means. Religion is what people need as an opiate because they're living under very harsh
[2:26:06 - 2:26:11] ▶
conditions. So the idea was improve the conditions of the people. They won't need religion anymore.
[2:26:11 - 2:26:15] ▶
Hmm. That's kind of, um,
[2:26:15 - 2:26:18] ▶
I wouldn't, I would not a very realistic point of view. I think religion is of one kind or another,
[2:26:21 - 2:26:27] ▶
spirituality anyways, here to stay is part of our innate background and makeup to run the race to
[2:26:27 - 2:26:32] ▶
religion as a, as a way of finding a sucker or, or assistance at a time of emotional stress.
[2:26:32 - 2:26:39] ▶
You know, that's something that people do. And what Marx was talking about saying,
[2:26:40 - 2:26:44] ▶
getting rid of that because, you know, it's not, it's not very useful. Just concentrate on things that
[2:26:44 - 2:26:48] ▶
you can fix here in the here and now. I understand the, the impetus of it, knowing how badly the
[2:26:48 - 2:26:54] ▶
church treated people for centuries. You know, the Orthodox churches included and the, and the,
[2:26:54 - 2:27:00] ▶
the Catholic churches and all the churches that they treated, they had groups that they persecuted,
[2:27:00 - 2:27:04] ▶
Jews in particular, but a lot of other people too, other religions, heretics, witches, everybody else.
[2:27:04 - 2:27:10] ▶
So it was a machine to give emotional support and moral support towards, you know, eradicating your
[2:27:10 - 2:27:18] ▶
enemies on a moral level. It wasn't a practical thing, but it was a moral thing that said people,
[2:27:18 - 2:27:23] ▶
well, we have to get rid of these people. They're evil. So the church has that in its background,
[2:27:23 - 2:27:29] ▶
which is the fascist point of view also, right? Get rid of these people who are standing in our way.
[2:27:29 - 2:27:34] ▶
You know, the Nazi ideal was get rid of all of these people because they're in our way.
[2:27:35 - 2:27:38] ▶
Okay. Okay. They're, they're holding, they're holding back the race. Um,
[2:27:38 - 2:27:43] ▶
it's a question of the sacrificed, the sacrificial king, as opposed to the kings who do the sacrifice?
[2:27:50 - 2:27:57] ▶
In that, in the scenario I just gave you, it's difficult to make that, that case, I think,
[2:27:59 - 2:28:04] ▶
um, because the church represents the sacrificed king, but they were more than willing to work with
[2:28:04 - 2:28:09] ▶
the Nazis against the communists instead of the other way around. Um, so I don't know. I, I, I, it's,
[2:28:09 - 2:28:16] ▶
it's a, it's a thorny question because it requires a lot more thinking and a lot more,
[2:28:16 - 2:28:20] ▶
a lot more context, I think for what was going on. But in the United States, if we just poured it back over
[2:28:20 - 2:28:26] ▶
here, um, it was considered to be, you know, weak minded to be both anti-communist and anti-Nazi.
[2:28:26 - 2:28:34] ▶
There was a very strong Republican candidate. I write about it in, I'm not sure which book anymore,
[2:28:34 - 2:28:40] ▶
Secret Machines, um, God, um, no, Secret Machines War, I think. I wrote about it also in one of the Nazi
[2:28:40 - 2:28:47] ▶
books, I think in, um, in the Hitler legacy, there was an American political, a Republican, very sort
[2:28:47 - 2:28:54] ▶
of a right wing kind of guy, very conservative, but he got really angry when he found out that the
[2:28:54 - 2:28:58] ▶
Argentines were protecting Nazi war criminals and he wanted to cut off any aid or resistance to,
[2:28:58 - 2:29:04] ▶
to Argentina. And another Republican said, you're crazy. We can't do that. You know,
[2:29:04 - 2:29:09] ▶
leave them alone. Let the art, let them, let them live there. Who cares? Right. We're, we're against
[2:29:09 - 2:29:13] ▶
anti-communist. Let's not muddy the waters. And the guy says, I can do both, right? I can be
[2:29:13 - 2:29:17] ▶
anti-communist and anti-Nazi. I can do both things. We can do both things as a country.
[2:29:17 - 2:29:22] ▶
And they said, no, you can't, it's going to be one or the other. We have all these Nazis working for us,
[2:29:22 - 2:29:26] ▶
you know, um, with, with the space program. So we really don't want to piss off the Nazis that much,
[2:29:26 - 2:29:32] ▶
you know, and we covered up war criminals that we knew existed in South America and stuff. Whereas we
[2:29:32 - 2:29:38] ▶
would go after the communists very aggressively. I'm not trying to say what's right or what's wrong.
[2:29:38 - 2:29:43] ▶
I'm trying to say what motivates it. What is the rationale behind this? Why is that okay?
[2:29:43 - 2:29:47] ▶
Right. Why are we okay with it? Are we okay with it? Or is this part of the problem? Is this part of
[2:29:48 - 2:29:52] ▶
the prison mentality that we have that we have to pick a side? It's like the prison gangs, right?
[2:29:52 - 2:29:57] ▶
You got to be on this gang side or that gang side, right? Who are you going to be protected by?
[2:29:58 - 2:30:01] ▶
Which side? And I think that's the problem. We're looking at it that way.
[2:30:01 - 2:30:05] ▶
Can I ask you some basic questions? Cause you've probably spoken to as high level
[2:30:05 - 2:30:10] ▶
people in government who deal with the UFO issue
[2:30:11 - 2:30:13] ▶
vis-a-vis any other civilian that I've ever met maybe. And so can I ask you a few questions about
[2:30:15 - 2:30:21] ▶
just what you think about the UFO legacy program?
[2:30:21 - 2:30:24] ▶
Hmm. Like, like the, the questions would be is like, what is the program? Like, like, like,
[2:30:25 - 2:30:30] ▶
is there a mater, do they have material from UFOs that are not of human origin? Um, would be one
[2:30:30 - 2:30:39] ▶
question. Do you think there are saucers and hangers, little bits and pieces of things? Or do you think the
[2:30:39 - 2:30:45] ▶
saucers and hangers are tech protection for some sort of lineage of exotic science that comes from the
[2:30:45 - 2:30:50] ▶
Nazis or what do you think?
[2:30:50 - 2:30:52] ▶
See what I've been told and what I think could be two different things.
[2:30:56 - 2:30:59] ▶
I would love to believe that we have a crash saucer.
[2:31:04 - 2:31:08] ▶
If we have a crash saucer from the forties until now,
[2:31:11 - 2:31:15] ▶
that story doesn't seem that likely it would, we would have done something with it. Don't tell me
[2:31:15 - 2:31:22] ▶
in all this time, we can't figure out how that thing works.
[2:31:22 - 2:31:25] ▶
But, but you hear all the analogies of, you know, iPhone with Da Vinci or whatever, where it's like,
[2:31:25 - 2:31:31] ▶
Da Vinci is a genius, but he wouldn't know what the hell you wouldn't know information theory and bits
[2:31:31 - 2:31:36] ▶
and you know, what chip was inside of it. And yeah, of course,
[2:31:36 - 2:31:40] ▶
David Pérez, you'd be able to like press some buttons and stuff, but like it would be,
[2:31:40 - 2:31:45] ▶
the progress would be very limited.
[2:31:45 - 2:31:46] ▶
But if I gave Da Vinci 50 years, he would have gotten close. He would have discovered something
[2:31:46 - 2:31:52] ▶
about electricity. He would have discovered something about miniaturization. I mean,
[2:31:52 - 2:31:58] ▶
he might've gotten, he wouldn't have figured out what an iPhone was unless it started beeping at him
[2:31:58 - 2:32:03] ▶
and the voice came out of it.
[2:32:03 - 2:32:04] ▶
Well, what if that's where we're at on UFOs?
[2:32:04 - 2:32:07] ▶
Well, we've had the UFOs for 50 years.
[2:32:07 - 2:32:09] ▶
I know, but that's what I'm saying. What if we do know some things about it,
[2:32:09 - 2:32:12] ▶
but we don't know how to, you know, fly them perfectly or so? I don't know.
[2:32:12 - 2:32:16] ▶
I'm the, the part that that's, that is my problem.
[2:32:16 - 2:32:20] ▶
Is that we can't be the only ones. Russia's got to have crashed vehicles. China's got,
[2:32:20 - 2:32:26] ▶
China has a crashed vehicle.
[2:32:26 - 2:32:28] ▶
Do you, so, so, so this is a point to say that you don't think we are in possession of saucers and
[2:32:28 - 2:32:34] ▶
hangers from the forties.
[2:32:34 - 2:32:36] ▶
I would say if we are in possession of it and they're in possession of it too,
[2:32:36 - 2:32:40] ▶
then there is, um, an agreement between countries that says, we're not going to talk about this.
[2:32:41 - 2:32:47] ▶
It's the fight club.
[2:32:47 - 2:32:48] ▶
But you think that we're not going to do it. And it was going to keep it under the vest.
[2:32:48 - 2:32:52] ▶
And, but you can't have an agreement like that because somebody is going to break it.
[2:32:52 - 2:32:57] ▶
So you think that's the less likely scenario?
[2:32:57 - 2:32:59] ▶
I think it's the less likely. I know. Okay. If there are crash saucers, there got to be a lot of them.
[2:32:59 - 2:33:04] ▶
Has to be more than one.
[2:33:04 - 2:33:05] ▶
Okay. And I've heard a lot of rumors when I did business in China, which I did for years.
[2:33:06 - 2:33:09] ▶
With the Chinese government that there was something that crashed in Chinese territory. I think the Russians got it, though.
[2:33:10 - 2:33:15] ▶
So what is that thing that crashed in Chinese territory?
[2:33:15 - 2:33:20] ▶
It's to them, the scuttlebutt was, this is one of your flying saucers, they would say.
[2:33:20 - 2:33:24] ▶
But like of the Soviets or the Russians?
[2:33:25 - 2:33:28] ▶
Or a Horton, who knows?
[2:33:28 - 2:33:29] ▶
But it was something that was kept under wraps. If a Horton crashed, who would care?
[2:33:30 - 2:33:33] ▶
It was a Horton. It was never going to fly. It crashed. End of story.
[2:33:35 - 2:33:38] ▶
There's a logical problem in the...
[2:33:42 - 2:33:44] ▶
It's convenient for us to sit here and say, the US government. The US government
[2:33:44 - 2:33:47] ▶
is only one government on the planet, and they only have so much territory, right?
[2:33:48 - 2:33:53] ▶
The Chinese have a big chunk, and the Russians have it, and all the other countries that have
[2:33:53 - 2:33:56] ▶
crashed equipment, possible crashed equipment.
[2:33:56 - 2:33:58] ▶
All the countries that have sightings, which is almost every country.
[2:33:59 - 2:34:02] ▶
You implied earlier that what you think and what you've been told might be two different things.
[2:34:03 - 2:34:07] ▶
So you've been told that we do have crashed actual genuine UFO, maybe extraterrestrial
[2:34:07 - 2:34:13] ▶
craft in our possession.
[2:34:13 - 2:34:14] ▶
I was told by way of omission. When it comes to the subject of, do we have materials in our possession?
[2:34:15 - 2:34:26] ▶
Okay. There's been a wishy-washy response to that.
[2:34:26 - 2:34:29] ▶
Oh, we have materials. Okay. And, you know, are they extraterrestrial? Are they...
[2:34:30 - 2:34:37] ▶
We can't really identify where they came from, will be an answer like that.
[2:34:39 - 2:34:42] ▶
Yeah. It will go into, like, that territory. And finally, when you just flat out ask them,
[2:34:43 - 2:34:48] ▶
The response is something like, you know, we really can't discuss that. Well, if you
[2:34:49 - 2:34:55] ▶
don't have it, why can't you discuss it? Why can't you just say no?
[2:34:56 - 2:34:59] ▶
I mean, I'm comfortable with you lying to me. You've been lying to us for years.
[2:35:02 - 2:35:05] ▶
Lie to me again and say, no, we don't have a saucer.
[2:35:05 - 2:35:08] ▶
Don't leave it open-ended.
[2:35:08 - 2:35:10] ▶
Don't leave it like, maybe, you know, we have a flying saucer.
[2:35:10 - 2:35:14] ▶
What does that mean?
[2:35:14 - 2:35:15] ▶
Why would you say that?
[2:35:15 - 2:35:18] ▶
Is that part of a disinformation project that's been underway since 1947?
[2:35:18 - 2:35:22] ▶
You guys haven't gotten over that yet? You know, we've gotten over it, right?
[2:35:22 - 2:35:25] ▶
We're done with it, right? We're okay. You can tell us anything at this point.
[2:35:26 - 2:35:29] ▶
And then there's guys that come out and say, no, there's definitely a saucer.
[2:35:31 - 2:35:34] ▶
And there's people in government who come out and say, there's definitely a saucer.
[2:35:34 - 2:35:37] ▶
We saw it, right? There's people in the program.
[2:35:37 - 2:35:40] ▶
They were coming out and saying, no, there is definitely there. There's...
[2:35:40 - 2:35:43] ▶
Okay. At one point I was talking to a guy called, you've probably heard of him, Michael Aquino.
[2:35:43 - 2:35:49] ▶
Infamous guy, right?
[2:35:50 - 2:35:51] ▶
Isn't he like a Satanist or something?
[2:35:51 - 2:35:53] ▶
Yeah. Temple of Set. He found it. He was with LeVay's Satanic Church of Satan.
[2:35:53 - 2:35:57] ▶
He had the weird eyebrows. All the rest of it. He was implicated in all sorts of things.
[2:35:58 - 2:36:04] ▶
I had written about him in Unholy Alliance because he conducted a ceremony at Wevelsberg Castle,
[2:36:04 - 2:36:10] ▶
you know, the Nazi SS castle, some sort of Satanic ceremony. I was like, all right.
[2:36:10 - 2:36:14] ▶
He contacted me at one point and said, listen, let's hang out, right?
[2:36:15 - 2:36:19] ▶
I'm like, yeah. What could possibly go wrong?
[2:36:20 - 2:36:23] ▶
So he says, come on out.
[2:36:23 - 2:36:25] ▶
I want to run for the hills, man. That guy's creepy.
[2:36:25 - 2:36:27] ▶
He's very creepy. But I wanted to know. I'm the kind of guy I need to know.
[2:36:27 - 2:36:32] ▶
Right. So that's why I went to Chile in 79. I have to come face to face. I have to know.
[2:36:32 - 2:36:36] ▶
I mean, I got to talk to terrorists and Nazis and stuff. I have to see how they react,
[2:36:36 - 2:36:40] ▶
how they talk. That tells you a lot.
[2:36:40 - 2:36:42] ▶
I understand that instinct as well.
[2:36:42 - 2:36:44] ▶
You got to, right? Well, you do it all the time.
[2:36:44 - 2:36:46] ▶
Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
[2:36:46 - 2:36:47] ▶
So he says, we're going to go to Vegas. Las Vegas is having a meeting of the
[2:36:47 - 2:36:51] ▶
Association of Former Intelligence Officers, of which he's a member, right? Being a former
[2:36:51 - 2:36:56] ▶
intelligence officer. So I said, I'll get you in. Come on. We'll hang out. It'll be fun. Right.
[2:36:56 - 2:37:01] ▶
All right. So I go to this thing and it was weird. It was wild. Everybody in that room, except me, I
[2:37:02 - 2:37:07] ▶
guess, was a former intelligence officer for somebody, for SBI, CIA, NSA, DEA, didn't matter. Right.
[2:37:07 - 2:37:13] ▶
Yes. They're all there. They're all hanging out. They're having a wild old time. And they love
[2:37:13 - 2:37:18] ▶
Aquino. They all want their picture taken with this guy. What?
[2:37:18 - 2:37:22] ▶
And that to me was like stunning. I'm saying, you know, the bad press, right? About this guy.
[2:37:22 - 2:37:28] ▶
Didn't matter. These guys loved him because they saw him as an intelligence agent. Right.
[2:37:28 - 2:37:33] ▶
They didn't see him the way I, on the outside, had seen him. They saw him as one of theirs.
[2:37:33 - 2:37:38] ▶
What was your sense of the guy?
[2:37:38 - 2:37:40] ▶
Alexander was there, you know? Yeah. I met John Alexander at that time.
[2:37:40 - 2:37:44] ▶
Okay. I mean, for the audience, John Alexander's a long time UFO, kind of historian, but also seems
[2:37:44 - 2:37:50] ▶
to be pretty deep in the government on this topic in a way that, you know, maybe he's more involved
[2:37:50 - 2:37:57] ▶
than meets the eye or something. And sometimes skeptic and sometimes not.
[2:37:57 - 2:38:00] ▶
Kind of hard to. But that's the way these guys always do it.
[2:38:00 - 2:38:03] ▶
Yeah. So he was there. He had his picture taken with Aquino. Oh, gosh.
[2:38:03 - 2:38:08] ▶
So all these guys are like, yeah. And Aquino did get his commission. Everything else was reinstated
[2:38:08 - 2:38:13] ▶
when they said that the accusations against him could not have happened because of a number of
[2:38:13 - 2:38:17] ▶
things. What were the accusations?
[2:38:17 - 2:38:18] ▶
Uh, child abuse. Jesus.
[2:38:18 - 2:38:20] ▶
Yeah. But it turns out he wasn't in town when this stuff happened. I mean,
[2:38:20 - 2:38:25] ▶
literally wasn't because he was on some military mission.
[2:38:25 - 2:38:29] ▶
So is your sense that he's an evil satanic guy who was capable of things like that? Or did you send
[2:38:29 - 2:38:37] ▶
some goodness and, you know, people just somehow misunderstand him or what was your, what was your sense?
[2:38:37 - 2:38:43] ▶
he was until he was an intellectual guy. Very, very intelligent guy. Charming when he wanted to be
[2:38:45 - 2:38:55] ▶
charming. Extremely cynical. I mean, didn't believe anything. I mean, here's a guy involved in two
[2:38:55 - 2:39:04] ▶
quote unquote churches, right? Or temples, the church of Satan and then temple of set. But he didn't believe
[2:39:04 - 2:39:09] ▶
in paranormal anything. He didn't believe in UFOs, right? This guy was a realist, a hundred percent
[2:39:10 - 2:39:17] ▶
realist in what he did. He believed in the philosophies behind a lot of these things.
[2:39:17 - 2:39:21] ▶
And he was very erudite on that basis. Evil. That's hard to say. He didn't give me,
[2:39:22 - 2:39:29] ▶
you know, Islamic terrorist vibes that I had in Indonesia from the guy who was
[2:39:30 - 2:39:34] ▶
bombed the, you know, bombed Mali and killed 200 people.
[2:39:34 - 2:39:37] ▶
But what is he trying to do? Like if you're, you're running the, you know, this
[2:39:37 - 2:39:42] ▶
church of said and you're Satan, self-professed Satanist, and then you are,
[2:39:42 - 2:39:46] ▶
you know, in intelligence circles, like what's your, what's your MO? Like what's your mandate in life?
[2:39:46 - 2:39:50] ▶
He understood his, his famous thing. And it was similar to John Alexander's
[2:39:50 - 2:39:56] ▶
was non-lethal warfare, which sounds kind of nice. When you just look, look at the words,
[2:39:56 - 2:40:04] ▶
it's non-lethal. So we're all still alive. Right? Sure. But how do you conduct warfare then under
[2:40:04 - 2:40:08] ▶
those circumstances? He was a psychological warfare operations officer in Vietnam, right?
[2:40:08 - 2:40:13] ▶
Mm-hmm. The Phoenix program. He was involved in the Phoenix program.
[2:40:13 - 2:40:16] ▶
So this was something where you change the minds, the hearts and minds of people as
[2:40:17 - 2:40:21] ▶
General Westmoreland famously said, right? When you got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will
[2:40:22 - 2:40:27] ▶
follow. And that was their kind of modus operandi. Stay on top of them, feed them all sorts of weird
[2:40:27 - 2:40:35] ▶
shit. They believe in this, make ghosts. They believe in vampires, create vampires, right?
[2:40:35 - 2:40:41] ▶
Scare the shit out of the villagers and they'll come to you. Right? That was the Phoenix program.
[2:40:41 - 2:40:45] ▶
They did all kinds of things. They killed a lot of tax advisors and tax collectors as well for the
[2:40:45 - 2:40:50] ▶
Viet Cong. But they also did a lot of weird psychological warfare operations. That was their
[2:40:50 - 2:40:56] ▶
thing. Now, pump that up, right, to a national level. You know, how would you use non-lethal warfare
[2:40:56 - 2:41:04] ▶
on your own citizens? How would you do that? Right? How? Well, there's all different ways of doing it.
[2:41:04 - 2:41:12] ▶
The UFO phenomenon could be one. Do you think it's used in that capacity? Oh, it has been. We know that.
[2:41:12 - 2:41:17] ▶
Richard Doty did it. Uh-huh. Well, yeah. So he was obviously kind of psyoping and messing with
[2:41:17 - 2:41:23] ▶
Paul Benowitz. Do you think on a larger scale than that? He missed with everybody in the UFO community.
[2:41:23 - 2:41:29] ▶
Yeah. Fair enough. He was, it was a big problem. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they're still talking to him.
[2:41:29 - 2:41:33] ▶
I don't get it. Why, but I know he still goes on Gaia and talks about six different races of aliens.
[2:41:33 - 2:41:37] ▶
And people are like, wow. And insiders telling us, you don't know the history, but, um, but do you,
[2:41:37 - 2:41:43] ▶
do you think, I mean, there's, there's, it seems like there's something deeper and more nefarious
[2:41:43 - 2:41:48] ▶
about the way you're describing Aquino and what he's doing and Dodie, who's like,
[2:41:48 - 2:41:54] ▶
Well, this is the point I want to make.
[2:41:54 - 2:41:54] ▶
Obviously doing really bad stuff, but like messing with an individual in a way to like throw him off
[2:41:54 - 2:41:59] ▶
from like looking at Kirtland Air Force Base at like possibly like human tech.
[2:41:59 - 2:42:03] ▶
But it got him killed, right?
[2:42:03 - 2:42:04] ▶
No, Benowitz actually just obviously totally messed up and unacceptable, but he had a psychiatric
[2:42:04 - 2:42:10] ▶
break and was in the hospital and didn't die from that.
[2:42:10 - 2:42:13] ▶
Sure. No, but the pressure from Dodie feeding him false information, somebody is already
[2:42:13 - 2:42:18] ▶
in that state. To me, that's, that's culpability. I, you know, I think in a court of law, we could have
[2:42:19 - 2:42:23] ▶
made a case. I think he should be held responsible for, for doing horrible things to Benowitz. And yeah,
[2:42:23 - 2:42:29] ▶
I've covered it and I think it's, it's horrible, but I, it still feels like of a different variety from the,
[2:42:29 - 2:42:34] ▶
from what we're talking about. The Aquino thing feels like
[2:42:34 - 2:42:36] ▶
some weird, even, you know, you said psychological warfare. Like, do you think there's a psychic
[2:42:37 - 2:42:42] ▶
component, like a psychic warfare component to any of that stuff?
[2:42:42 - 2:42:45] ▶
I think we're, we're, we're desperately trying to find it. I think if we haven't found it already,
[2:42:45 - 2:42:49] ▶
I think our intelligence communities, or at least the scientific divisions of them,
[2:42:49 - 2:42:54] ▶
are looking for, to see how they could do that. They did that during MKUltra. They did that, you know,
[2:42:54 - 2:42:57] ▶
during Bluebird, during Artichoke, uh, Operation Offen. They were looking at occult systems. How can we
[2:42:57 - 2:43:03] ▶
manipulate occultism? I mean, is there anything to that, that we can use?
[2:43:03 - 2:43:06] ▶
Yeah. You know, so obviously it was on, it was on the, the books as early as the 1950s and 1960s.
[2:43:06 - 2:43:12] ▶
So, and how would UFOs be used in that context?
[2:43:12 - 2:43:15] ▶
Think of it this way. Think of how Aquino used psychological warfare in Vietnam.
[2:43:20 - 2:43:28] ▶
Hmm. The Vietnamese believed in, in certain villages and stuff. They believed in vampires.
[2:43:28 - 2:43:34] ▶
They believed in, in ghosts. They believed in hungry ghosts, that sort of thing. There were a
[2:43:34 - 2:43:39] ▶
lot of strange beliefs depending upon where you came from, and they exploited that. They made them appear.
[2:43:39 - 2:43:44] ▶
Um, in one of my books, I even talked about it in detail in one of my novels, in, uh, The Lovecraft Code.
[2:43:45 - 2:43:52] ▶
There's a series of three books that are just, that are fictional, but not really.
[2:43:52 - 2:43:55] ▶
So in one of them, I talk about that type of operation, how it would look. Right.
[2:43:55 - 2:43:59] ▶
What's the difference between that and a UFO sighting? Go to some small town.
[2:44:01 - 2:44:06] ▶
Right. Shine some lights in the sky and then have somebody appear and say something in English.
[2:44:07 - 2:44:13] ▶
Right. And then disappear again, freaking out, you know, a family of five on a picnic or something.
[2:44:14 - 2:44:19] ▶
Do you think UFOs can be staged? We've tried it. Wow. Right. CIA even had this idea in their head.
[2:44:19 - 2:44:26] ▶
They were going to have, um, Jesus appear as a vision over Havana to convince the Cubans to overthrow
[2:44:26 - 2:44:34] ▶
Castro. That was on the books. They were going to use holograms or something to make this thing appear.
[2:44:34 - 2:44:39] ▶
We know how to do that. Whoa. Right. So, and that was then, that was, that was back in the 70s. Right.
[2:44:39 - 2:44:46] ▶
So we know how to do this kind of stuff. We could make things appear and disappear with stagecraft.
[2:44:46 - 2:44:51] ▶
Right. Hmm. I mean, Aquino was practicing stuff like that. I mean, the other Phoenix program guys
[2:44:51 - 2:44:56] ▶
were doing this, this kind of thing. So the idea is we create an image just brief. We don't need it
[2:44:56 - 2:45:02] ▶
to sit there for a long time. It just briefly appears in front of you. Are they practicing magic with a C or
[2:45:02 - 2:45:07] ▶
magic with a K? So like some sort of a cult, you know, attempts to create like an egregore or like a kind of consensus
[2:45:07 - 2:45:15] ▶
thought form that appears as a UFO or is it like pure technology? We're going to beam a thing in the sky.
[2:45:15 - 2:45:22] ▶
No, I mean, they're going to, they're going to beam a thing in the sky, pure technology, but with an,
[2:45:23 - 2:45:26] ▶
with the occult context for it. Right. So they're going to do it this way. You know, I don't know what
[2:45:26 - 2:45:34] ▶
they've studied since, since that time. I don't know if they've gotten far enough to say I can make this
[2:45:34 - 2:45:40] ▶
thing happen scientifically, but it's going to have psychological implications and it's going to
[2:45:40 - 2:45:44] ▶
have maybe a spiritual implication as well. Yeah. Maybe this person will see a vision. Maybe they'll
[2:45:44 - 2:45:48] ▶
go off and found a cult. We don't know. Right. Maybe they've gotten that far to realize that they can
[2:45:48 - 2:45:53] ▶
create the scientific apparatus to induce a spiritual breakdown or breakthrough.
[2:45:53 - 2:45:59] ▶
All of this sounds somewhat dark and manufactured in your underlying kind of ontological
[2:45:59 - 2:46:06] ▶
belief or whatever. Do you think that there are genuine non-human intelligences and, and, you know,
[2:46:07 - 2:46:14] ▶
possibly extraterrestrials visiting earth? You know, it's, are there not human intelligences? Yes.
[2:46:14 - 2:46:21] ▶
Yeah. Bluntly. Okay. Yeah. What levitated your table decades ago? Yeah. And maybe go to the
[2:46:21 - 2:46:27] ▶
Australian consulate like an asshole. So yes. Did the aboriginal uprising ever happen or no? Okay.
[2:46:27 - 2:46:33] ▶
Okay. Not in all this time. Okay. Okay. Still waiting for it. Okay. Yeah. Well, let's hope.
[2:46:33 - 2:46:37] ▶
The timing is a little off. Yeah. So no, something, something is non-human or preterhuman or ultra human.
[2:46:37 - 2:46:45] ▶
I don't know. We have these words for it and that's where we get lost when we start doing that.
[2:46:45 - 2:46:49] ▶
Something that's not us is doing this. Okay. So yes, that exists. So, so you said non-human intelligence
[2:46:49 - 2:46:56] ▶
definitely exists. Right. And then, you know, extraterrestrials or
[2:46:56 - 2:46:59] ▶
beings that can be embodied and corporeal. Right. Right. And that's what I wanted to get at.
[2:47:01 - 2:47:05] ▶
Between man and God. That's what I, that's the, the, the thing I was going to get to,
[2:47:05 - 2:47:09] ▶
I guess probably you have it on your list. I think we've talked about it briefly was the, uh, the men in
[2:47:09 - 2:47:14] ▶
black episode that I had. Yeah. What seems to point to that because I have no other explanation for it.
[2:47:14 - 2:47:19] ▶
Nothing makes sense in this, in this context. So that's some of your listeners, I think,
[2:47:19 - 2:47:24] ▶
probably viewers have seen, heard this before, but I'll make it brief. Um, don't make it brief.
[2:47:24 - 2:47:29] ▶
Yeah. Tell the whole story. It was in, it was in, um, Rhode Island. Uh, I lived there in,
[2:47:29 - 2:47:37] ▶
this would have been 1990 when this was happening right around the time of the first Gulf War,
[2:47:38 - 2:47:44] ▶
which is how I remember it. I put it in that context because for a minute I, I wondered if there
[2:47:44 - 2:47:49] ▶
was a connection and I had been shopping in the car and I drove my car back to my house.
[2:47:49 - 2:47:55] ▶
Ashaway road at that time was, you know, houses here and there. It wasn't a big city. It wasn't
[2:47:56 - 2:48:02] ▶
even a village. It was just, you know, I had a house and then next to me a little while over
[2:48:02 - 2:48:06] ▶
there was a house. There's a house over there. So it's not a very busy place, a country road,
[2:48:06 - 2:48:10] ▶
basically. Um, and so I'm unloading packages from the car and I look up and I notice there's an old
[2:48:10 - 2:48:18] ▶
model black Cadillac, uh, idling right in front of the house. And the driver appears to be holding
[2:48:18 - 2:48:27] ▶
a camera facing me with a wide angle lens on it. Uh, and I'm staring at this and that's happened to me
[2:48:27 - 2:48:34] ▶
once before in my life. That was during Vietnam era. Uh, when I was 19, 20 years old, I guess I
[2:48:34 - 2:48:43] ▶
signed a petition or something and somebody was taking my picture COINTELPRO or whatever the hell
[2:48:43 - 2:48:48] ▶
it was at the time. But so I know what that looks like, right? That camera facing at me. And so there
[2:48:48 - 2:48:53] ▶
it was again. And, um, I looked at this thing and I thought, the hell is that? So I put down my
[2:48:53 - 2:48:59] ▶
groceries and I started walking over to the car to see like, what the hell is this? Right.
[2:49:00 - 2:49:04] ▶
And the car just takes off. Um, I try to get the license plate number. It was too fast for me to
[2:49:05 - 2:49:11] ▶
get a license plate number, but the license plate looked like the Rhode Island license plate, which
[2:49:11 - 2:49:15] ▶
was white, a white background with black lettering, but that's also the federal license plate. Right.
[2:49:15 - 2:49:20] ▶
So I didn't know which it was. So I said, I'm going to follow them. I go back to my car. I'm going to
[2:49:20 - 2:49:25] ▶
pull out and follow the car. I just want to know what that is. I'm a little weirded out by this.
[2:49:25 - 2:49:29] ▶
And before I can do that, another car comes up and pulls into the driveway and blocks me.
[2:49:30 - 2:49:33] ▶
And it's an old model. Again, a station wagon, the kind with the wood trim, you know, the old
[2:49:35 - 2:49:40] ▶
fashioned wood trim, old fashioned station wagons. So we're talking like a 1960s era station wagon.
[2:49:40 - 2:49:47] ▶
And two women come out of the car, one from the driver's side, one from the passenger side,
[2:49:48 - 2:49:54] ▶
looking like I always, in my head, it's always like Manson family members. You know,
[2:49:54 - 2:49:59] ▶
they're sort of very sweet, sort of very pale, you know, face kind of light hair, wearing old
[2:49:59 - 2:50:07] ▶
like cloth coats, you know, looking like old fashioned people. Like they might've been from a
[2:50:08 - 2:50:13] ▶
cult somewhere, you know, and they came out very sweetly and looked at me as I'm desperate to get out
[2:50:13 - 2:50:18] ▶
of my driveway saying, can you tell us where the DeVilbiss family lives? DeVilbiss. And I said,
[2:50:18 - 2:50:26] ▶
no, I'm sorry. I don't know. Okay. Thank you. And they got into their car and pulled out and drove
[2:50:26 - 2:50:31] ▶
away. And like an idiot, I didn't realize this is part of the team, right? They're keeping me from
[2:50:31 - 2:50:37] ▶
following the other car. I just want to follow the first car. And so I'm like flummoxed. I don't know
[2:50:37 - 2:50:42] ▶
what the hell that was all about. So I sort of give up and I say, all right, except she asked me
[2:50:42 - 2:50:47] ▶
about the DeVilbiss family and that rang a bell. So I started looking in phone books and everything
[2:50:47 - 2:50:55] ▶
else. We didn't have internet, ladies and gentlemen at the time. So I'm looking to find out where the
[2:50:55 - 2:51:00] ▶
DeVilbiss family is. There is no DeVilbiss in Rhode Island, but there was a DeVilbiss that was referred
[2:51:00 - 2:51:05] ▶
to me by a guy that I used to work with in Rhode Island or yes, in Rhode Island, who had previously
[2:51:05 - 2:51:14] ▶
worked at Huntsville, right? So he worked for NASA. He had met Wernher von Braun personally,
[2:51:14 - 2:51:22] ▶
but it was just some guy. He was an engineer. Now he was, you know, in his sixties, I suppose,
[2:51:23 - 2:51:28] ▶
at the time that I knew him at the time. And he had recommended me, you should look at this company
[2:51:28 - 2:51:33] ▶
called DeVilbiss. They're in Ohio and they make machines that you can sell this equipment that I
[2:51:33 - 2:51:38] ▶
was involved with. You could sell them to them maybe, you know. He told me that like months and
[2:51:38 - 2:51:42] ▶
months earlier. So I looked them up and there's DeVilbiss and it's there. Yeah, that's the same
[2:51:42 - 2:51:46] ▶
name, the same company and everything else. Had nothing whatsoever to do with Rhode Island or these
[2:51:46 - 2:51:50] ▶
two chicks in the station wagon. I could not put this together, right? Except they plucked maybe the
[2:51:50 - 2:51:56] ▶
name DeVilbiss out of my head and plucked the one that was connected to Huntsville and Wernher von Braun,
[2:51:56 - 2:52:02] ▶
right? I don't know. I was like, what the hell was this about? Right? It was just the mysterious
[2:52:02 - 2:52:06] ▶
men in black episode because they were driving late. I mean, early model cars, you know, it was
[2:52:06 - 2:52:12] ▶
an old model Cadillac black as usual, right? For a men in black thing. And then these women in this old
[2:52:12 - 2:52:19] ▶
model, you know, station wagon with the, with the cloth coats and the, who gets out of their car to ask
[2:52:19 - 2:52:25] ▶
directions. Yeah. Well, I mean, another option of then men in black is like NHI. Like you have like,
[2:52:25 - 2:52:33] ▶
you know, the kind of wispy thin hair and the pale skin that, that is kind of a, you know,
[2:52:33 - 2:52:38] ▶
something you hear as far as descriptions of alien interactions, quote unquote alien,
[2:52:38 - 2:52:44] ▶
whatever these beings are. So maybe it was like a genuine anomalous. Well, it was anomalous to the
[2:52:44 - 2:52:50] ▶
point where I met one of them again. Okay. And that was in Singapore. What? On the other side of
[2:52:50 - 2:52:55] ▶
the world. So same. Well, this is what happens. I'm in the airport, the Changi airport, very famous.
[2:52:55 - 2:53:00] ▶
I'm in the airport. Uh, I'm, I was on a business trip. I think I was probably going back to Kuala
[2:53:01 - 2:53:07] ▶
Lumpur. So I was, you know, going to catch another flight. I'm dragging my suitcase and then someone taps
[2:53:07 - 2:53:12] ▶
me on the shoulder and that's not done in Singapore. You know what I mean? It's like,
[2:53:12 - 2:53:18] ▶
of course there's tourists there, but people don't, they're not touchy feely in that part of the world.
[2:53:18 - 2:53:21] ▶
So I get tapped on the shoulder and I turn around to see who that is. And it's one of the women from
[2:53:22 - 2:53:26] ▶
the car, the one who was the driver. Right. And she looks at me and she waves and keeps on going.
[2:53:26 - 2:53:33] ▶
I just stare at her and I, I shake myself, you know, and I started following her like dragging my
[2:53:33 - 2:53:38] ▶
suitcase, but she's gone. She's just gone in the crowd, just disappeared. But she tapped me on the
[2:53:38 - 2:53:43] ▶
shoulder and waved. What? That is, I'm getting the chills. That is such a weird story. Yeah. That
[2:53:43 - 2:53:50] ▶
threw me that, that it brought back the whole episode that I had more or less forgotten about.
[2:53:50 - 2:53:56] ▶
It brought it all back. If that hadn't happened, I might've forgotten about the first one. Right.
[2:53:56 - 2:54:00] ▶
But this brought it all back and said, you know, we're here. Woo. That is creepy. And if there was any
[2:54:00 - 2:54:05] ▶
doubt that the first one was anomalous, I mean, that's laid to rest. Like that is so strange.
[2:54:05 - 2:54:11] ▶
Yeah. Weird. So you're asking me about NHI and stuff. I don't know how to answer that question.
[2:54:11 - 2:54:16] ▶
What was that? Have you mulled over the meaning of it? And has anything else come up since?
[2:54:16 - 2:54:21] ▶
No, I've gotten, I've gotten stuff since then, but it hasn't been that specific, that direct. I mean,
[2:54:21 - 2:54:27] ▶
and that happens years apart, right? It doesn't happen like a whole year. I'm getting all this stuff
[2:54:28 - 2:54:33] ▶
going on now. So years later than I'm in, I'm at home. I'm in Florida now. And, uh, two o'clock in
[2:54:33 - 2:54:40] ▶
the morning, something like that place is very quiet. And then suddenly I hear this really loud
[2:54:40 - 2:54:46] ▶
electrical buzzing sound, very loud. And I'm thinking, what the hell did that? Did I short
[2:54:46 - 2:54:51] ▶
something out? And I don't have anything that, you know, a couple of TVs in my computer and that's
[2:54:51 - 2:54:55] ▶
about it. So I'm looking around to see what that could be. And I can't, I can't find it. And then right
[2:54:55 - 2:55:00] ▶
then as I'm looking, I get the knocks, right? Knock, knock, knock. And then knock, knock, knock,
[2:55:00 - 2:55:04] ▶
then knock, knock, knock. Really loud knocks. And it's from inside the house, right? It's nothing
[2:55:04 - 2:55:10] ▶
from outside. There's, it's two o'clock in the morning. There's nobody knocking on my door.
[2:55:10 - 2:55:13] ▶
So that happened. So, you know, then I think, okay, I'll make note of this. And I, I emailed, uh,
[2:55:13 - 2:55:21] ▶
Whitley Streeper. I said, if anybody knows how to make sense of something like this, it'll be Whitley.
[2:55:21 - 2:55:25] ▶
And Whitley said, don't worry about it. It's just the visitors saying, hello, just, you know, saying,
[2:55:26 - 2:55:31] ▶
just passing through, you know, that's all it is. Don't worry about it. So then years after that,
[2:55:31 - 2:55:36] ▶
still in Florida, I'm driving home. It's in December, shortly before COVID happened. I think
[2:55:36 - 2:55:44] ▶
that the December before it all started and I'm seeing what I think is a police helicopter, you know,
[2:55:44 - 2:55:51] ▶
very close to the house. So I stopped the car. It's in a complex of buildings. I stopped the car
[2:55:51 - 2:55:57] ▶
and I think that's really strange that it's a helicopter. It's really close. It's got a search
[2:55:57 - 2:56:02] ▶
light, but I don't see what it's looking at. There's no light on the ground, right? I'm looking
[2:56:02 - 2:56:07] ▶
at this thing and I stopped the car and I'm expecting to hear, you know, the really loud
[2:56:07 - 2:56:12] ▶
rotor blades. I hear nothing. So I opened the car door and I stand up and look at it. I'm looking at a
[2:56:12 - 2:56:17] ▶
triangle with the lights and it's just sitting there and it's totally quiet. Not a sound,
[2:56:17 - 2:56:24] ▶
not that emotion, nothing, just the lights. I'm looking at it, but my mind is going through all
[2:56:24 - 2:56:30] ▶
the alternatives, right? This isn't a helicopter. Is this a plane? I'm not getting to the obvious
[2:56:30 - 2:56:36] ▶
end result that this is not supposed to be here, right? I'm trying to think of a logical explanation
[2:56:37 - 2:56:41] ▶
for this thing. And as I'm thinking of that explanation and staring at it, it disappears and it reappears
[2:56:41 - 2:56:47] ▶
down a few feet down this way. And then it takes off no acceleration. It just, it didn't move.
[2:56:48 - 2:56:54] ▶
It just was here. And then it was over there, no sound and then gone. And I said, holy,
[2:56:54 - 2:56:59] ▶
shit, I just saw a UFO for the first time in my life. And I've just published books about it.
[2:56:59 - 2:57:03] ▶
Right. Yeah. And written about it. Never saw one. Yeah.
[2:57:03 - 2:57:06] ▶
But there it was for the first time. That's remarkable.
[2:57:06 - 2:57:09] ▶
I emailed that to Tom and he said, damn it. I wish it had happened to me.
[2:57:09 - 2:57:14] ▶
Yeah. Well, at some point I'd love to have Tom on to discuss, you know, I think he's had some
[2:57:14 - 2:57:22] ▶
interesting experiences as well. But, um, um, so what is the Necronomicon and why is the strategic
[2:57:22 - 2:57:30] ▶
air command interested in the Necronomicon?
[2:57:30 - 2:57:33] ▶
Tom and Tom, see, we're back to fight club now again, you know what I'm saying? Um, what is it?
[2:57:33 - 2:57:38] ▶
Good question. Um, I was involved with that thing since
[2:57:38 - 2:57:43] ▶
1975, I guess it was, but that's a, that's another long story. How much time do you have?
[2:57:45 - 2:57:53] ▶
Uh, I have an infinite amount of time. I do. I have until your flight.
[2:57:53 - 2:58:00] ▶
Oh, okay. Okay. Time enough for this story. Necronomicon. I did a presentation on this a
[2:58:00 - 2:58:05] ▶
couple of weeks ago. I think Lincoln saw it. Yes, he did. Um, shout out to Lincoln.
[2:58:05 - 2:58:10] ▶
Shout out to Lincoln. American alchemy researcher, friend, and kind of informal understudy of Peter
[2:58:10 - 2:58:18] ▶
Lavenda. That sounds sad. That sounds dangerous.
[2:58:18 - 2:58:21] ▶
The sorcerer's apprentice. There you go. So, yeah, uh, that was an interesting thing because I,
[2:58:21 - 2:58:28] ▶
it's a long story involved as, as all of my stories are long when you're 75, all your stories
[2:58:29 - 2:58:33] ▶
are long. Um, so this one goes back to 75. Um, it goes back to the church. It's connected to the,
[2:58:33 - 2:58:42] ▶
the Orthodox church, the one that we started, my friend and I see, we started the church.
[2:58:43 - 2:58:47] ▶
And then in 19, um, late 69, I guess it was, I, I got tired of the whole thing because it's just too
[2:58:47 - 2:58:57] ▶
weird for me. Um, there was too much strange stuff going on. There was a CIA component to it,
[2:58:57 - 2:59:03] ▶
which shouldn't have been because domestic operations and all that stuff. I don't know
[2:59:04 - 2:59:07] ▶
if they were operating domestically, but I kept running into these guys.
[2:59:07 - 2:59:09] ▶
Wait, what, what, tell me about that. What, what happened?
[2:59:09 - 2:59:12] ▶
Well, we, we had, as an example, I made some noise about this on Substack. I think it was a year or
[2:59:12 - 2:59:17] ▶
two ago and the wrestling community got really freaked out. You know, the worldwide wrestling
[2:59:17 - 2:59:23] ▶
people, they totally freaked out on me on this one. They say, who the hell is this guy? This shouldn't be
[2:59:23 - 2:59:28] ▶
doing this. Um, it's, it, believe me, it connects, it all connects up. We formed this church. Okay.
[2:59:28 - 2:59:35] ▶
Uh, and during the time we had this church, we're going around, you know, as church people going to
[2:59:36 - 2:59:42] ▶
do church meetings and that sort of thing. So we made a friend, a guy called Andre Panaccio. Andre
[2:59:42 - 2:59:50] ▶
Panaccio was a priest in the liberal Catholic church, which was an offshoot of the Theosophical Society.
[2:59:50 - 2:59:57] ▶
But he was a guy who knew a lot of people in show business for some reason. He was really connected
[2:59:58 - 3:00:03] ▶
to show business. And he knew all of the show business types and he knew churches and synagogues
[3:00:03 - 3:00:10] ▶
and people that had like actors do things and stuff. So he was like plugged into all of this.
[3:00:10 - 3:00:14] ▶
Andre Panaccio achieved some fame briefly in the movie, The Godfather, the first one.
[3:00:15 - 3:00:22] ▶
And if you remember the famous baptism scene, some guy in red robes, um, presiding over the baptism,
[3:00:22 - 3:00:30] ▶
he says nothing. He's a big guy wearing a sort of a yarmulke and red robes and white surplus, I guess.
[3:00:30 - 3:00:38] ▶
And he's there throughout the baptism ceremony. He says nothing. That's Andre Panaccio. That's how
[3:00:38 - 3:00:44] ▶
plugged in he was. He got himself a walk on in The Godfather. Right. So this is, this guy could do that.
[3:00:44 - 3:00:50] ▶
So now he's inviting us to this meeting at some place called the Brotherhood Synagogue.
[3:00:50 - 3:00:54] ▶
And that's in Greenwich Village in Manhattan. And it was a synagogue plus Presbyterian church.
[3:00:55 - 3:01:02] ▶
It was a common, they shared the space, one with the other. Very famous place at the time in the
[3:01:03 - 3:01:09] ▶
village. So we had a meeting there with the rabbi in charge of the synagogue operation.
[3:01:09 - 3:01:14] ▶
And ourselves, the two of us, Andre Panaccio is the third. And the fourth guy was a famous heavyweight
[3:01:14 - 3:01:23] ▶
champion. He had dropped out of sight for a long time. He was a mixed, like he was Italian,
[3:01:23 - 3:01:29] ▶
um, but he had Argentine roots or something. Um, very well-known guy, but he kind of dropped out of the
[3:01:30 - 3:01:38] ▶
scene for a while. He's there at this meeting. Now I didn't know anything about boxing. I'm still only
[3:01:38 - 3:01:43] ▶
like 18 years old, I suppose. Right. Again, no internet, boys and girls. So I knew nothing about
[3:01:43 - 3:01:49] ▶
this. Right. I just knew this was a huge person. He was huge. And when he shook your hand, it was like,
[3:01:49 - 3:01:56] ▶
your hand disappeared. He's talking to us about running operations for the CIA in Lebanon.
[3:01:56 - 3:02:02] ▶
He's just bluntly talking about it. He figures he's among friends. It's a synagogue, right?
[3:02:02 - 3:02:08] ▶
So he's saying, don't worry about what Congress does or doesn't do. It doesn't have any effect on
[3:02:08 - 3:02:14] ▶
our support. He says, I've been flying phantom jets into, into Lebanon for onward flights into Israel,
[3:02:14 - 3:02:24] ▶
directly into Israel. I forget how he worded it. He says, they box them up in car and crates.
[3:02:24 - 3:02:29] ▶
They ship them to Luxembourg. He mentioned for some reason, and we take them out of the crates
[3:02:29 - 3:02:33] ▶
in Luxembourg and we have pilots fly them down to Israel. They never show up on the manifest as
[3:02:33 - 3:02:38] ▶
our shipments to Israel. You've got the phantom jets. No problem. He says, you know, I've had a
[3:02:38 - 3:02:42] ▶
few guys killed from out, from under me in Lebanon as well. He says, but we're on top of things there.
[3:02:42 - 3:02:47] ▶
You guys don't need to worry about anything. I'm listening to this and I'm thinking, should I be
[3:02:47 - 3:02:52] ▶
listening to this? Should I be in the room with this discussion? I don't know what the hell is going on
[3:02:52 - 3:02:57] ▶
with this, right? I come back and I just make a note of this. And then a couple of years later,
[3:02:57 - 3:03:03] ▶
just maybe, I don't know, three or four years later, I suppose, there's this phone number you
[3:03:03 - 3:03:08] ▶
could call in New York City to find out the contact information for any celebrity. It didn't last very
[3:03:08 - 3:03:14] ▶
long, but it was there. And you could just dial them up and ask them. So I dialed up, you know,
[3:03:14 - 3:03:18] ▶
you could ask for anybody, any famous actor, actress, it would give you some form of contact information.
[3:03:18 - 3:03:22] ▶
So I called up and asked for this guy and I was put on hold. And then like a minute or two later,
[3:03:22 - 3:03:33] ▶
they got back and says, no, sorry, nothing. We have nothing on him. And they would just hang up
[3:03:33 - 3:03:36] ▶
like that, you know, nothing happened. And again, he died a couple of years after that. There was a
[3:03:36 - 3:03:42] ▶
funeral. There was a big newspaper story on him. No mention, of course, of being involved in American
[3:03:42 - 3:03:46] ▶
intelligence of any kind in any capacity. That's not there. So then about two years ago, I read an
[3:03:46 - 3:03:53] ▶
article. I have a sub stack, which I haven't done anything with in about a year, but I have a sub stack
[3:03:53 - 3:03:58] ▶
and I wrote an article about this particular event. And I drew connections because this guy also acted as
[3:03:58 - 3:04:03] ▶
an actor briefly in Brooke Shields, very first movie, the one filmed in Patterson, New Jersey.
[3:04:03 - 3:04:10] ▶
And it was a horror movie, sort of a supernatural horror movie. And this guy shows up as the undertaker.
[3:04:11 - 3:04:16] ▶
Right. So he has this little bit part in this thing. And then I wrote this whole story about
[3:04:16 - 3:04:20] ▶
Brooke Shields, this first movie Patterson. One of the people involved in the film was married to the
[3:04:20 - 3:04:26] ▶
guy who plays the priest in the exorcist. Right. So there's all these weird satanic kind of
[3:04:26 - 3:04:30] ▶
undercurrents and connections. And it was like a satanic sort of serial killer movie with ritual
[3:04:30 - 3:04:35] ▶
overtones that took place in a Catholic church during Holy Communion and everything. So it was all this,
[3:04:35 - 3:04:39] ▶
you know, spooky stuff all layered in there. And so I just mentioned this and then the
[3:04:39 - 3:04:44] ▶
the wrestling people, somebody found it and they went nuts. They said, how the hell, we didn't know
[3:04:44 - 3:04:49] ▶
what happened to this guy. Now this guy knows. How does this guy know? He's a nobody. And somebody
[3:04:49 - 3:04:55] ▶
said, well, we shouldn't say he's a nobody. He's a nobody in our world, but maybe, you know,
[3:04:55 - 3:04:59] ▶
in some other world, he's somebody. So there was this big discussion over this, like this is what
[3:04:59 - 3:05:04] ▶
happened to him. This was part of what goes on. And part of what happened as us being involved in
[3:05:04 - 3:05:10] ▶
intelligence stuff, not being wanted, not wanting to be involved in intelligence stuff with the
[3:05:10 - 3:05:15] ▶
churches at the time. Right. So this happened. And that same church then went on. I broke with
[3:05:15 - 3:05:23] ▶
them after this. I didn't want to be associated with them. I didn't know what was going on because
[3:05:23 - 3:05:26] ▶
they kept, they kept having these parties where there were, you know, TV types were there or Broadway
[3:05:26 - 3:05:32] ▶
types were there. Not the, not the stuff you're hearing about these days of the Hollywood,
[3:05:32 - 3:05:39] ▶
you know, satanic stuff. That's always, you know, on the internet for some reason,
[3:05:39 - 3:05:43] ▶
it was nothing like that, but it was just people attending these parties, but they were making
[3:05:43 - 3:05:46] ▶
connections. These are people just connecting with each other and they might be in business.
[3:05:46 - 3:05:50] ▶
They might be in government. They might be in Hollywood. These connections are made. So that was
[3:05:50 - 3:05:55] ▶
fine. That's what I knew, you know, and I was uncomfortable with my position and all of this. I
[3:05:55 - 3:05:59] ▶
didn't feel that secure. So I left. Right. As soon as I left the church, I got a notice from
[3:05:59 - 3:06:06] ▶
selective service that I was being drafted. So I made a phone call. And after I made the phone call,
[3:06:06 - 3:06:14] ▶
they dropped that and they said, no, you're okay. I just kind of threatened to talk about what I knew.
[3:06:14 - 3:06:19] ▶
And they said, no, forget it. You're, you're still good. Oh, wow.
[3:06:19 - 3:06:22] ▶
So then a little bit after that, what happens is I find out that the church that I had left,
[3:06:23 - 3:06:28] ▶
I get a phone call from them, from my partner, from my friend. And he comes and says, listen,
[3:06:28 - 3:06:33] ▶
I need you. If you could just come back for a short time, something weird is going on here.
[3:06:33 - 3:06:38] ▶
And I think you're the person to look into it. I said, thanks. And it turns out he had these monks
[3:06:38 - 3:06:42] ▶
working for him, monks, people that I didn't know, people that had come to him from some other church.
[3:06:42 - 3:06:48] ▶
They always do. They cross fertilize that way. And they specialize in rare books. And
[3:06:48 - 3:06:56] ▶
he thinks they're stealing them because they give him all these great books. And he was still
[3:06:56 - 3:07:01] ▶
interested in occult things as well. So he got these beautiful occult volumes from like the 16th
[3:07:01 - 3:07:05] ▶
century, 17th century, priceless looking things, right? I'm staring at this stuff. He's got a shelf
[3:07:05 - 3:07:10] ▶
full. And he says, these guys are acquiring them. He says, but I have doubts about these guys. I don't
[3:07:10 - 3:07:15] ▶
know if they're, if they're legitimately getting these or not. I'm afraid that he's going to expose
[3:07:15 - 3:07:20] ▶
me to some problems. So could you go and spy on them? They've never seen you. They don't know what
[3:07:20 - 3:07:27] ▶
you look like. Never heard of you. Just go there, you know, and say like you're in the book business
[3:07:27 - 3:07:31] ▶
and you want to see what's up. So I did that, right? So I said, yeah, that sounds good. So I went to visit
[3:07:31 - 3:07:37] ▶
them at their location, which was, they had a chapel and it was located above a strip club in Jamaica,
[3:07:37 - 3:07:44] ▶
Queens. And upstairs they had, you know, a sort of makeshift chapel, like a little altar in the front
[3:07:44 - 3:07:51] ▶
because they were posing as priests, as monks. And, but in the back room, they had all these, this
[3:07:51 - 3:07:58] ▶
machinery for taking care of the rare books that what they would do is they would steam out any
[3:07:58 - 3:08:04] ▶
library impressions. And if there was ink involved, they had ink eradication equipment that wouldn't
[3:08:04 - 3:08:09] ▶
leave any marks on the books. And then they would tear out the maps and sell them separately. Sometimes
[3:08:09 - 3:08:15] ▶
they would get more money for the map than they would for the book. And this to me was anathema.
[3:08:15 - 3:08:20] ▶
I'm a book lover from day one. So you don't do this to books, right? You don't strip. I don't write
[3:08:20 - 3:08:27] ▶
in my books even. Right. So these guys are just, you know, ripping off books left and right. So I realized
[3:08:27 - 3:08:34] ▶
that's what's going on. And, you know, after one or two visits with them and everything else,
[3:08:34 - 3:08:38] ▶
getting acquainted with them, I went back to my friend and said, you know, this is,
[3:08:38 - 3:08:41] ▶
this is what's happening. So then he freaked out that this was going to be a big problem for him.
[3:08:42 - 3:08:48] ▶
So he had all of these priceless books in his possession and he destroyed them. He burned them.
[3:08:49 - 3:08:56] ▶
Whoa. So that he wouldn't get caught. But in the process, I snagged one or two things that I
[3:08:56 - 3:09:03] ▶
thought should be saved from the fire that I would take responsibility for. I don't know where he got them,
[3:09:03 - 3:09:08] ▶
if he got them from these monks, he got them from somebody else, but a box of a manuscript,
[3:09:08 - 3:09:12] ▶
right? Which looks cool to me. And I said, this looks pretty cool. I'm going to keep this and see
[3:09:12 - 3:09:16] ▶
what I can do with it. And so then I brought it to a friend of mine who ran an occult bookstore in
[3:09:16 - 3:09:24] ▶
Brooklyn Heights, the Warlock shop, a guy called Herman Slater. And I bring the box over to him and
[3:09:24 - 3:09:31] ▶
he says, oh, this looks great. You know, what is it? And I show him the page on the front. It's like a
[3:09:32 - 3:09:37] ▶
lot of writing, but there's a heavy writing in Greek letters in the front. And in my basic rusty Greek,
[3:09:37 - 3:09:44] ▶
which I only know the Greek alphabet because I studied the Russian, the Kyrillic alphabet. I said,
[3:09:44 - 3:09:49] ▶
this looks like it says necronomicon and Herman Slater has a heart attack on the spot. He says,
[3:09:49 - 3:09:56] ▶
no, no, no, no, no, no. You can't be serious. And I said, I don't know. Am I serious about what?
[3:09:56 - 3:10:00] ▶
I never read occult fiction, you know? So Lovecraft meant nothing to me. You know, it's a word that was
[3:10:02 - 3:10:10] ▶
in the background somewhere, but I never read any short stories by Lovecraft. It was not my thing. You know,
[3:10:10 - 3:10:14] ▶
I gravitated more towards nonfiction for magic and occult stuff. I wanted the nonfiction or
[3:10:14 - 3:10:20] ▶
the closest I came were the Dennis Wheatley novels, three novels that he wrote on occultism,
[3:10:20 - 3:10:25] ▶
because they talked about Crowley and they talked about Thlema and stuff like that from like another
[3:10:25 - 3:10:29] ▶
perspective. So I thought that was cool. And I just, I read those. Um, but that was it, you know?
[3:10:29 - 3:10:34] ▶
So now he said, no, you have to translate this. You have to see what this is, because this looks cool.
[3:10:34 - 3:10:38] ▶
This, you know, find somebody and do it. So that started this whole, um,
[3:10:38 - 3:10:43] ▶
odyssey of figuring out what this book is. You know, is it something that Lovecraft talked about?
[3:10:44 - 3:10:51] ▶
Is it just a name? You know, and it has no relationship at all to Lovecraft. I had to
[3:10:51 - 3:10:56] ▶
learn about Lovecraft. I knew nothing about it. So I had to learn about it. And I talked to my friend,
[3:10:56 - 3:11:01] ▶
the church guy who was burning all the books and he didn't have a clue. He didn't want to know at this
[3:11:01 - 3:11:05] ▶
point, because now these guys are getting arrested and they were arrested for committing the largest
[3:11:05 - 3:11:10] ▶
rare book theft in America's history. It turns out they had stolen hundreds, if not thousands,
[3:11:11 - 3:11:15] ▶
of books and sold them all over the place, coast to coast. And in Canada and Mexico as well,
[3:11:15 - 3:11:20] ▶
the Mounties were brought in as part of the investigation. So this was a major operation
[3:11:20 - 3:11:25] ▶
that they were running. Where they, what they did with the money, I don't know, but they did get
[3:11:25 - 3:11:29] ▶
sent to prison. They served time for it, uh, in federal facilities. So, you know, my friend was
[3:11:30 - 3:11:35] ▶
wise to stay or get as far away from it as possible, but still, I mean, he was the church they belonged to
[3:11:35 - 3:11:40] ▶
at the time. They were officially part of his operation. So that was, it led to a lot of paranoia
[3:11:40 - 3:11:46] ▶
on my part, on his part, on the part of everybody involved in this thing. But eventually, by 1975, October
[3:11:46 - 3:11:53] ▶
12th, as it turned out, it was just serendipitous. All of the translation work had been done, had been
[3:11:53 - 3:11:58] ▶
compiled, basically, that we knew what was in the book. And that was the date that we said,
[3:11:58 - 3:12:03] ▶
okay, we're finished. This is it. Now what do we do with it? Right? So, Herman Slater held onto it
[3:12:03 - 3:12:10] ▶
for a while. Um, the only copy of it and the only translation was his. Okay, you do something with
[3:12:10 - 3:12:16] ▶
this. Right? So then, um, thereby leads another tale because then a guy called Larry Barnes walks
[3:12:16 - 3:12:24] ▶
into our lives. And Larry Barnes was one of the most incredible people I've met in my life,
[3:12:24 - 3:12:29] ▶
a very strange guy, but strange in a nice way. He, um, he walks into the store and he looks at all the
[3:12:29 - 3:12:38] ▶
weird stuff that's hanging. There's skulls and there's, you know, there's daggers and there's all
[3:12:38 - 3:12:43] ▶
these books and there's herbs, there's whole bunches of herbs and roots and stuff. And he goes over to
[3:12:43 - 3:12:47] ▶
Herman Slater and he says, um, you wouldn't happen to have a copy of the Necronomicon in here, would
[3:12:47 - 3:12:51] ▶
you? And Herman Slater very victoriously pulls it from underneath the counter. Right? He says, here it
[3:12:51 - 3:12:56] ▶
is. And so Larry Barnes went absolutely nuts because he was a total cartoon freak and a Lovecraft freak and
[3:12:56 - 3:13:02] ▶
everything, uh, from the art side, not from the occult side, just from the, you know, the vibe side.
[3:13:02 - 3:13:09] ▶
So he was just totally into this like big time. So he then wanted to publish the book actually.
[3:13:09 - 3:13:14] ▶
Uh, believe it or not, nobody wanted to publish it. Nobody was that interested in it at the time,
[3:13:15 - 3:13:19] ▶
but Larry Barnes came up with it and says, oh my God, we can do something with this. So
[3:13:19 - 3:13:22] ▶
he, uh, he got me involved. He got, um, a number of people involved, people who had been belong to
[3:13:24 - 3:13:29] ▶
various occult societies and stuff who had the connections to do some of the, the, uh, the typesetting.
[3:13:29 - 3:13:35] ▶
In those days, there were no computers per se. So making a book was much more laborious than it is
[3:13:35 - 3:13:41] ▶
now. Uh, you had a set type and you had to redraw a lot of the art. You couldn't just copy it. It had
[3:13:41 - 3:13:46] ▶
to be done a certain way. So it was a lot of fussy stuff that was involved. So it took a while. So
[3:13:46 - 3:13:51] ▶
by finally, by 1977, uh, by December of 77, there was a completed actual book for sale.
[3:13:51 - 3:13:58] ▶
But to get to your initial question, which has been like a half an hour ago, um, what is it after this
[3:14:00 - 3:14:05] ▶
with the strategic air command? What happened was, well, what, and what's in the Necronomicon?
[3:14:05 - 3:14:11] ▶
Oh, okay. Well, if you're a Lovecraft person, you have some ideas as to what must be in it.
[3:14:11 - 3:14:16] ▶
It's kind of like that. It's a grimoire. It's a, it's a book, um, that pretends to be a pre-Islamic
[3:14:16 - 3:14:23] ▶
or if not anti-Islamic, it's not anti-Islamic because there's nothing anti-Islamic in it,
[3:14:24 - 3:14:29] ▶
but I would say pre-Islamic, uh, book of casting spells of, of, of conjuring spirits.
[3:14:29 - 3:14:34] ▶
Uh, and there's even a kind of, of abbreviated version of the creation epic, the Sumerian
[3:14:34 - 3:14:40] ▶
creation epic in it. There's Sumerian words in it, Sumerian deities, and then there's some
[3:14:40 - 3:14:44] ▶
Babylonian and Akkadian. It's kind of mixed. Um, it seems to be a book of, you know, that a sorcerer might
[3:14:44 - 3:14:51] ▶
have used, uh, in the Middle East, probably Iraq, uh, before the advent of Islam or before Islam
[3:14:51 - 3:14:59] ▶
really took over and basically destroyed a lot of that material. And so you found the only copy of it,
[3:14:59 - 3:15:04] ▶
essentially. Essentially. Yeah. Wow. Handwritten. Right. That's crazy. Yeah.
[3:15:04 - 3:15:09] ▶
That's what it is. And that's, and what's, but we didn't know what it was. What's the Lovecraft
[3:15:10 - 3:15:15] ▶
writes about it or? Well, Lovecraft writes that it's a dangerous book that even possessing it
[3:15:15 - 3:15:19] ▶
means you're, you're summoning demons and spirits and stuff. And it's a gateway,
[3:15:19 - 3:15:23] ▶
a portal to other dimensions. And you found it and it, and what's, I don't know if it's it. I mean,
[3:15:23 - 3:15:28] ▶
the Lovecraft scholars will say, no, that's not it. It's not, it's not Lovecraftian enough. Okay. I
[3:15:28 - 3:15:33] ▶
mean, if it was going to be a hoax to a better hoax is their, their response. Right. But it might be it.
[3:15:33 - 3:15:37] ▶
It might, it's a book with the same name. Okay. Does it, well, does it have, if you do like, uh,
[3:15:39 - 3:15:44] ▶
an unbiased, you know, historiographic kind of analysis on it, does it sort of comport with,
[3:15:44 - 3:15:50] ▶
you know, uh, materials at that time, written materials or. I think the more we know now. Yeah.
[3:15:51 - 3:15:57] ▶
The closer it becomes to a real thing. When they first came out, people rose a lot of objections
[3:15:57 - 3:16:03] ▶
to it. And I think on pretty standard sound grounds, phonetic grounds, for instance, things like that,
[3:16:03 - 3:16:08] ▶
where it couldn't have meant it couldn't have been this. It could not have been that.
[3:16:08 - 3:16:11] ▶
Uh, we make the point in the book that, uh, uh, Lovecraft's famous arch weird connector between
[3:16:11 - 3:16:19] ▶
humans and the, the elder gods or the ancient ones is Cthulhu. And it's spelled C-T-H-U-L-H-U.
[3:16:19 - 3:16:27] ▶
Right. No one knows how it's really pronounced. It's like supposed to be a garbling in the throat
[3:16:27 - 3:16:31] ▶
sound. Like it's not, it's a non-human alphabet, right? A non-human name. But we're looking at it and
[3:16:31 - 3:16:38] ▶
came up with the idea. We talked to a scholar of Sumeriology. You have to have somebody know Sumerian.
[3:16:38 - 3:16:44] ▶
And he said, Cthulhu. I mean, that's a Sumerian form. It means a person from the underworld.
[3:16:44 - 3:16:49] ▶
Cthulhu is the underworld. And Luh means person. It means a human being or a man. So it's the man
[3:16:50 - 3:16:56] ▶
from the underworld. This Cthulhu that they're talking about in the book is the man from the underworld.
[3:16:56 - 3:17:01] ▶
And then, so that sent us off on other wild goose chases. Like Kutu is the underworld. And we found
[3:17:01 - 3:17:07] ▶
out there is a place. It's, I mean, the Sumeriologists would know. It was called Kuta or Kutu in Sumerian or
[3:17:07 - 3:17:13] ▶
Babylonian. And it was a place that was supposed to be the entrance to the underworld. It exists today,
[3:17:13 - 3:17:18] ▶
today in Iraq. It's south of Baghdad, south east of Baghdad. And it's the place where Abraham is said to
[3:17:19 - 3:17:27] ▶
be buried. Tell Ibrahim is there. And if you look at pictures of it now, it's just a big empty wasteland.
[3:17:27 - 3:17:34] ▶
Nothing is built there. But that's supposed to be the entrance to the underworld.
[3:17:34 - 3:17:37] ▶
So things started to make sense later.
[3:17:39 - 3:17:42] ▶
Right? And they found an Arabic rendering in the Quran of a being called Al-Khadool, which is supposed to be
[3:17:42 - 3:17:48] ▶
a kind of quality of anti-something. It's like an adversary name. Right? So there's like things
[3:17:49 - 3:17:57] ▶
started to make sense that didn't make sense back in 1975. But with the passage of time and, you know,
[3:17:57 - 3:18:03] ▶
sober looking back at it, things kind of start connecting more than they used to. But from an
[3:18:03 - 3:18:08] ▶
unbiased perspective, I can't be unbiased. I was involved with it since like the beginning. But
[3:18:08 - 3:18:13] ▶
from my unbiased perspective, it's a book with the same name. And it's quite possible that somebody knew
[3:18:13 - 3:18:20] ▶
about it. Lovecraft heard the name, you know, and crafted his idea of what the Necronomicon should be
[3:18:20 - 3:18:27] ▶
based on that, that he just simply heard the name and that the name was around. Because there isn't a lot in
[3:18:27 - 3:18:33] ▶
there that says that screams Lovecraft. But there are pieces that do, you know?
[3:18:33 - 3:18:38] ▶
Well, and real quick before we get into the government's interest in this topic, which, you know,
[3:18:38 - 3:18:45] ▶
is mind blowing that the government strategic air command might be interested in a book about the
[3:18:45 - 3:18:51] ▶
And references ancient, you know, Sumerian myth and stuff. I mean, that's fascinating. But, um,
[3:18:52 - 3:18:59] ▶
truly your life does resemble Johnny Depp's character in the ninth gate, this book collector's on this
[3:19:00 - 3:19:06] ▶
mission to find these like three, like devil books or whatever. Right.
[3:19:06 - 3:19:12] ▶
And so I didn't realize this before doing this interview until Lincoln actually brought it up,
[3:19:12 - 3:19:16] ▶
but you are the inspiration for Johnny Depp's character in the ninth, in Roman Polanski's
[3:19:16 - 3:19:21] ▶
famous movie, the ninth gate, which is also, I think Jacques Vallée's favorite movie.
[3:19:21 - 3:19:26] ▶
Oh, I didn't know that. Oh yeah. Oh boy. Okay. I'm in deep trouble now.
[3:19:26 - 3:19:31] ▶
Now Jacques's going to call me up and say, it was you. Um, no. Okay. This is the thing we have to
[3:19:31 - 3:19:39] ▶
pull back a little bit. The story is not based on me at all. The story was a rich,
[3:19:39 - 3:19:42] ▶
was a Spanish novel, very well known Spanish novel. So the story has nothing to do with me.
[3:19:42 - 3:19:48] ▶
The character of Johnny Depp, however, from what I've been told by the people who worked on the
[3:19:48 - 3:19:53] ▶
Polanski film when they were in New York, see Polanski can't come to the States for reasons.
[3:19:53 - 3:19:59] ▶
We, I think we all know, uh, he was accused of, of, of, of sexual abuse of a minor. So he is now
[3:19:59 - 3:20:05] ▶
in France virtually forever. Um, so he doesn't come to the United States. He's filmed, he's made
[3:20:05 - 3:20:10] ▶
movies in the United States, but he hasn't come himself. So he has scouts that do the, you know,
[3:20:10 - 3:20:16] ▶
the B roll stuff. And they look for the, you know, uh, uh, location shots and stuff like that.
[3:20:16 - 3:20:21] ▶
And some of the movie takes place in New York. So there are people in New York working for Polanski
[3:20:21 - 3:20:26] ▶
and they came across this story. They came across the story of myself and the book and all of this.
[3:20:26 - 3:20:31] ▶
And they got the physical description down. Right. So I was even thinner then than I am now.
[3:20:31 - 3:20:38] ▶
It was like maybe one 25. Um, I always wore suits. That's a whole other story, but I always wore
[3:20:38 - 3:20:44] ▶
suits and tie constantly. Uh, I wore a black sort of, uh, trench coat, raincoat kind of thing.
[3:20:44 - 3:20:50] ▶
Uh, I had a beard, obviously. I always had a shoulder bag, uh, glasses, the whole nine yards. I mean,
[3:20:50 - 3:20:56] ▶
it's the Johnny Depp character, dark clothing, the whole thing. And the book business guy,
[3:20:56 - 3:21:00] ▶
I was always in and out of bookstores, right in that outfit. And I was, uh, involved with Weiser's
[3:21:00 - 3:21:06] ▶
bookstore, which in New York city was the famous occult bookstore with a pedigree going back a long
[3:21:06 - 3:21:12] ▶
time. And you came upon maybe the occult book, which is the Necronomicon. Right. Which is like this,
[3:21:12 - 3:21:18] ▶
like the most forbidden book that you're not supposed to possess, which ends up kind of being true for
[3:21:18 - 3:21:23] ▶
Johnny Depp and his character as well, where you're really not supposed to possess all three books.
[3:21:23 - 3:21:27] ▶
You see, but they had the story already. So I fit unbeknownst to me, because I hadn't read the novel
[3:21:27 - 3:21:32] ▶
at that time. Right. But I fit the whole, the whole thing. It was as though it was scripted.
[3:21:32 - 3:21:37] ▶
So the people around Depp are saying, this actually happened. This story actually happened to this guy,
[3:21:37 - 3:21:44] ▶
you know, and we have all this information about him and we talked to people who knew him and stuff.
[3:21:44 - 3:21:48] ▶
And so that kind of got into the film from what I understand. I had forgotten all about this to tell
[3:21:48 - 3:21:52] ▶
you the truth until a few months ago, I was talking to a guy who makes a videographer. Actually, I think
[3:21:52 - 3:21:59] ▶
he's based in, in Florida as well. And he came down to meet me just a couple of months ago. And he says,
[3:21:59 - 3:22:04] ▶
do you remember that thing about Johnny Depp and the, and you know, the ninth gate? And I said,
[3:22:05 - 3:22:10] ▶
oh my God, I'd forgotten all about that. And he told me the story again. So it's been around.
[3:22:10 - 3:22:14] ▶
The story has been around. I don't know who's promulgated it, but it's been around. So yeah, that,
[3:22:14 - 3:22:18] ▶
that's kind of weird, but imagine me, but you know, like 40 years ago, uh, that's pretty much
[3:22:18 - 3:22:23] ▶
how I looked. So wild. So if I'm strategic air command, why do I care at all? Well, this is how
[3:22:23 - 3:22:30] ▶
that happened. Yeah. We're going to announce the book now. We're, you know, Larry Barnes is financing
[3:22:30 - 3:22:38] ▶
the publication of this book and it's costing some money because he wants to bound in leather. He wants
[3:22:38 - 3:22:42] ▶
silver stamping. He wants really good quality paper. He wants silk ribbon, the whole nine yards he wants.
[3:22:42 - 3:22:48] ▶
With this thing, he's calling all the shots he's paying for this. Um, but it's not really his
[3:22:48 - 3:22:54] ▶
money. It's his father's money. They're part of the largest lithography press on the East Coast.
[3:22:54 - 3:23:00] ▶
His father owns it. So they're, they're wealthy. They live in, I think in Fort Lee, New Jersey,
[3:23:00 - 3:23:05] ▶
across the bridge and they have all this money. And, but his father is, doesn't follow his son's
[3:23:05 - 3:23:10] ▶
enthusiasms as much. And he wants to get his money back as quickly as possible to finance this thing.
[3:23:11 - 3:23:17] ▶
So they come up with a scheme, which I didn't know existed. It's called barter space. And in
[3:23:17 - 3:23:24] ▶
magazines at that time, these big glossy magazines like Omni, Psychology Today, you could run ads in
[3:23:24 - 3:23:29] ▶
those magazines without actually paying them upfront. The cost of the, of the page, you could pay them in
[3:23:29 - 3:23:37] ▶
merchandise. So what we were going to do, what we did is we had barter space in the top magazines that
[3:23:37 - 3:23:44] ▶
were around at the time, including Omni, including Psychology Today. These were very important
[3:23:44 - 3:23:48] ▶
magazines. Omni was big time. Uh, I think, uh, high times even we were in that, which was the weed
[3:23:48 - 3:23:55] ▶
connoisseurs magazine of choice. We were in a lot of stuff, very expensive space. We had full page ads
[3:23:55 - 3:24:01] ▶
in those magazines that we did by giving them, you know, we're selling this book for, I forget how much
[3:24:01 - 3:24:07] ▶
they were selling it for the leather bound edition was limited edition, 666 copies. And I think it went
[3:24:07 - 3:24:14] ▶
for $150 or something. I forget how much it was. It was very expensive. And so we would give, you know,
[3:24:14 - 3:24:20] ▶
like 10 copies or something to, to Omni or Psychology Today or high times, whatever it was.
[3:24:20 - 3:24:25] ▶
And that was the initial payment, you know, they would take the orders. So the, the ads came to them,
[3:24:25 - 3:24:31] ▶
they would take the orders. And once they got the orders, they would, we would fulfill them to that
[3:24:31 - 3:24:36] ▶
point, to that level. And then anything else was gravy. It was our money. So that's how we paid for
[3:24:36 - 3:24:40] ▶
the book. We paid for it before it was published. It was completely paid for before it was published.
[3:24:40 - 3:24:46] ▶
All those ads brought us the orders, but it also meant it brought us a lot of attention. It wasn't a
[3:24:46 - 3:24:52] ▶
little ad in the back of fate magazine. These were full page ads in Omni. Omni was being read by the Pentagon.
[3:24:52 - 3:24:59] ▶
Really? Omni had really great articles in there about technology.
[3:24:59 - 3:25:03] ▶
It also had great design. Great design. Super cool. Yeah. Yeah.
[3:25:03 - 3:25:07] ▶
So there were people at the Pentagon, there were people in the intelligence and the, you know,
[3:25:07 - 3:25:10] ▶
military industrial complex who were aware of Omni very much so. And they read the articles,
[3:25:11 - 3:25:15] ▶
they knew what was being discussed because they discussed UFOs, they discussed space technology,
[3:25:15 - 3:25:19] ▶
artificial intelligence. It was all there in Omni in the 1970s. So yeah, they were doing that. And
[3:25:19 - 3:25:24] ▶
eventually it got to the attention of people in the military. So we would get letters, you know,
[3:25:24 - 3:25:30] ▶
and we would get letters from, uh, Fort this or Fort that saying, you guys doing a great job. Keep it up.
[3:25:30 - 3:25:36] ▶
You know, what you're in the dark, you're what, you know, Marine bases, army bases. And then the
[3:25:36 - 3:25:42] ▶
SA, the strategic air command, SAC came in with a letter, you know, just a nice letter saying, oh,
[3:25:42 - 3:25:47] ▶
congratulations on your new publication. We didn't ask for them for, for a blurb.
[3:25:47 - 3:25:51] ▶
And it's like the organization itself where it's a general or it's on their stationary. And I forget,
[3:25:51 - 3:25:56] ▶
Larry Barnes kept all of that. So I forget, you know, who signed it. Actually,
[3:25:57 - 3:26:00] ▶
I would love to know now because that would say something.
[3:26:00 - 3:26:02] ▶
What do you, why do you think they were interested at all in the Necronomicon?
[3:26:02 - 3:26:06] ▶
It's evidence that they were interested in this material from the get go.
[3:26:11 - 3:26:14] ▶
Right. I think they were interested since the beginning,
[3:26:15 - 3:26:17] ▶
but what's the connection? How is that?
[3:26:17 - 3:26:19] ▶
Well, operation often all the psychic research they were doing, the occult research CIA was doing.
[3:26:19 - 3:26:23] ▶
Tell us what operation often was.
[3:26:23 - 3:26:25] ▶
Yeah. Operation often, among other things, there's different, various descriptions of it
[3:26:25 - 3:26:29] ▶
that you'll find online. They mostly emphasize the drugs and LSD research of operation often,
[3:26:29 - 3:26:35] ▶
but some of the side operations involved studying witchcraft, studying occultism, studying magic,
[3:26:35 - 3:26:41] ▶
right? Sybil Leek was involved. No one knows anymore who Sybil Leek was, but she was a very famous English
[3:26:41 - 3:26:47] ▶
witch, a stout lady, very famous for all of her jewels and stuff. She was on American
[3:26:47 - 3:26:52] ▶
tele-talk TV back in the sixties and seventies, a great deal. She published a lot of books on
[3:26:52 - 3:26:58] ▶
occultism, on magic, on witchcraft. She was very plugged in though with the whole Wiccan community with
[3:26:58 - 3:27:03] ▶
Raymond Buckland and the Gardnerians. And if you know about Wicca and witchcraft, she was like
[3:27:04 - 3:27:08] ▶
one of the goats, right? She was there from the beginning, the OG. So she was like Sybil Leek
[3:27:09 - 3:27:16] ▶
put her name on it, on witchcraft and made it look kind of accessible because she was like the sweet lady
[3:27:16 - 3:27:21] ▶
type, with an acerbic wit, by the way. So she was being, she was openly involved with operation often,
[3:27:21 - 3:27:30] ▶
as we find out later. She was involved with a lot of these things. They wanted to test her. They wanted
[3:27:30 - 3:27:34] ▶
to see who she knew. They wanted to understand about magic. How does that work? Because they understood
[3:27:34 - 3:27:39] ▶
the quote unquote brainwashing that had been going on in Korea during the Korean War by the Chinese and
[3:27:40 - 3:27:48] ▶
the Russians on American troops who then come out and say they love the Soviet Union or they love
[3:27:48 - 3:27:52] ▶
communism. They understood this to be a kind of consciousness manipulation. And they said, wow,
[3:27:52 - 3:27:59] ▶
if we could only do that, right? That they're doing to our troops, we could do that to theirs.
[3:27:59 - 3:28:03] ▶
Or if we could do that to people in general, right? What can we do? How can we manage? How can we
[3:28:03 - 3:28:08] ▶
manipulate people, manipulate consciousness? And so Operation Offen was just a side shoot of that.
[3:28:08 - 3:28:15] ▶
It was a side show, basically. The major show was the drugs and the hypnosis that was full bore going
[3:28:15 - 3:28:21] ▶
on. Massive psychological conditioning undergone in Montreal, Canada, for instance, at an institute
[3:28:21 - 3:28:28] ▶
there that was funded by CIA for a long time. The guy who ran that was the guy who, to go back again
[3:28:28 - 3:28:35] ▶
to our other subject, is the guy who had basically debriefed and analyzed Hermann Hess,
[3:28:36 - 3:28:43] ▶
and Hermann Hess, not the author, Rudolf Hess, the Nazi leader who was second in command to Hitler at the
[3:28:43 - 3:28:48] ▶
time. He flew to Great Britain to try to make a peace deal or something between England and Nazi Germany.
[3:28:48 - 3:28:56] ▶
He was promptly arrested and thrown in jail. But the British High Command had some doubts as to whether
[3:28:56 - 3:29:03] ▶
or not this was really Hermann Hess or was a double. So they brought in the psychiatrist, who's name now
[3:29:03 - 3:29:10] ▶
escapes me, but it's in my books, from this institute in Montreal to go and investigate this guy, just talk to him.
[3:29:10 - 3:29:17] ▶
Ewan Cameron, maybe? Or no?
[3:29:17 - 3:29:19] ▶
Cameron, yes. Ewan Cameron. That's it. Thank you. Yes, that's who it was. Dr. Ewan Cameron, who was head of the
[3:29:19 - 3:29:24] ▶
World Psychiatric Institute for a while. This is not like some guy they found, you know, in a back
[3:29:24 - 3:29:29] ▶
alley somewhere. This was a major guy in the field. They sent him to prison. At that time, he was still
[3:29:29 - 3:29:38] ▶
in prison in England, to look at this guy and talk to him and figure out, is this really Hermann Hess,
[3:29:38 - 3:29:44] ▶
or is it a double? Right? And I think he came away with the idea that I'm not too sure, you know?
[3:29:44 - 3:29:50] ▶
Um, so he wasn't really a hundred percent definitive on that.
[3:29:51 - 3:29:54] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, Rudolf Hess, by the way.
[3:29:54 - 3:29:56] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, not Hermann. Not Hermann.
[3:29:56 - 3:29:57] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[3:29:57 - 3:29:58] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, yes, Rudolf. Sure.
[3:29:58 - 3:29:58] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, that's another story. Hermann.
[3:29:58 - 3:30:00] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, great author.
[3:30:00 - 3:30:02] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, great author. Rudolf Hess, not so much.
[3:30:02 - 3:30:04] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, so, yeah, but he, uh, but Rudolf Hess, now it's important to understand,
[3:30:04 - 3:30:08] ▶
talk about psychic research in the Nazi Germany. This guy was total on board with that.
[3:30:08 - 3:30:12] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, he believed he was in telepathic communication with his wife while he was in
[3:30:12 - 3:30:16] ▶
prison. They ran telepathy experiments. This guy believed in astrology a hundred percent,
[3:30:16 - 3:30:20] ▶
which is why he timed his flight for that specific day and time. Hess was totally on board with
[3:30:20 - 3:30:25] ▶
occultism and he was number two in Germany. He was Hitler's right-hand man. When Hitler was arrested,
[3:30:25 - 3:30:31] ▶
Hitler then ordered all occultists, all astrologers in Germany to be arrested, thrown in the camps,
[3:30:31 - 3:30:36] ▶
right? Automatically it's illegal. Freemasonry was illegal under Nazi Germany, right?
[3:30:36 - 3:30:42] ▶
So, you know, there goes on.
[3:30:43 - 3:30:46] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, because it didn't work in the context of Rudolf Hess.
[3:30:46 - 3:30:48] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, well, because Rudolf Hess did something he wasn't supposed to do.
[3:30:50 - 3:30:53] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, got it.
[3:30:53 - 3:30:53] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, he disobeyed Hitler.
[3:30:53 - 3:30:54] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, and so, Hitler kind of associated him with all this occult stuff.
[3:30:54 - 3:30:57] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, and so that was his kind of retaliation.
[3:30:57 - 3:31:00] ▶
Dr. Randall Bell, okay. I don't believe that Hitler was really an occultist. I make that point in
[3:31:00 - 3:31:03] ▶
Unholy Alliance. I try to make it really firmly. I don't think Hitler was an occultist per se,
[3:31:03 - 3:31:07] ▶
at all. I don't see Hitler in a robe, you know, casting spells. No, never going to happen.
[3:31:07 - 3:31:12] ▶
But when he was poor, when he was destitute in Vienna, trying to get into art school and selling
[3:31:12 - 3:31:18] ▶
postcards on the streets of Vienna, he became enthralled with a bunch of occult magazines that
[3:31:18 - 3:31:23] ▶
he came across. And these occult magazines were run by a guy called Lanz von Liebenfels,
[3:31:23 - 3:31:29] ▶
who was the head of something called the Order of the New Templars. And this was like the whole
[3:31:29 - 3:31:33] ▶
Aryan theory, again, writ large, but given this weird Templar-Wagnerian thing. And Hitler was
[3:31:33 - 3:31:40] ▶
nothing if not a Wagnerian. This guy loved his Wagner. So this Wagnerian idea of the Templars, of,
[3:31:40 - 3:31:45] ▶
you know, the Ring Cycle and all the rest of it kind of mixed in with, you know, anti-Semitism and
[3:31:45 - 3:31:52] ▶
all the rest of it was right up Hitler's alley. So he read all this stuff. He was fascinated by it
[3:31:53 - 3:31:58] ▶
and took a lot of time with it. It's said that he actually visited Lanz von Liebenfels in his office.
[3:31:58 - 3:32:03] ▶
He was so taken by it. That's the story that Liebenfels himself tells. But he had this, you know,
[3:32:03 - 3:32:09] ▶
new Templar thing where we're going to resurrect the Knights Templar, and it was going to be this
[3:32:09 - 3:32:13] ▶
Christian order that was going to wipe out all the mongrel races, you know, from Europe and all
[3:32:13 - 3:32:18] ▶
the other religions. It would be the secret society at first, but then it would rule Germany. So Hitler,
[3:32:18 - 3:32:24] ▶
as a young impoverished person, like a lot of young impoverished people sort of fell in with this,
[3:32:24 - 3:32:29] ▶
right? It was a cult kind of thing. It promised all sorts of stuff. It said, your problems are not
[3:32:29 - 3:32:33] ▶
your fault. It's, you know, the other people that are responsible. And he was a Wagner enthusiast and all of
[3:32:33 - 3:32:38] ▶
this kind of went together in his own mind. I don't believe that Hitler saw himself as an
[3:32:38 - 3:32:42] ▶
occultist at all. I think he thought it was fuzzy thinking. It was not militarily applicable anyway.
[3:32:42 - 3:32:48] ▶
He couldn't use it to kill people. So Himmler tried to disavow him of that saying,
[3:32:48 - 3:32:53] ▶
we do this because he gets people on our side. They love the fire, the torch lit ceremonies,
[3:32:53 - 3:32:58] ▶
They love all this stuff. They love the runes, the Nazi runes, the SS runes, and the death set.
[3:32:58 - 3:33:03] ▶
The black uniforms make everybody crazy with fear. And this is how you manipulate people. This is a way to
[3:33:03 - 3:33:09] ▶
do it. And Hitler said, yeah, you might be right. But then when Hess goes and does this, it's like,
[3:33:09 - 3:33:13] ▶
oh, wait a minute. Right?
[3:33:13 - 3:33:14] ▶
So you have all this Nazi interest in the occult. You later have American programs like
[3:33:14 - 3:33:19] ▶
MKOften that seem to dabble in witchcraft and sort of, you know, these strange things.
[3:33:19 - 3:33:24] ▶
But then the Strategic Air Command, I think of as this kind of hyperfunctional organization.
[3:33:25 - 3:33:29] ▶
So you think these are maybe just rogue vigilante researchers that are, happen to be a part of
[3:33:29 - 3:33:36] ▶
Strategic Air Command that are into this stuff? Or do you think they are institutionally
[3:33:36 - 3:33:39] ▶
interested in the concepts and the Necronomicon?
[3:33:40 - 3:33:42] ▶
No, no. I think they have a lot more on their plate than the Necronomicon.
[3:33:42 - 3:33:45] ▶
Okay. Yeah. That's what I always think.
[3:33:45 - 3:33:47] ▶
But that doesn't mean that everybody is on board. Right? So when you have somebody at SAC who's like,
[3:33:48 - 3:33:52] ▶
you know, this is like what we're studying. We're studying consciousness manipulation.
[3:33:53 - 3:33:57] ▶
We're studying some of this stuff. Because why? What's one of the things that happens with
[3:33:57 - 3:34:02] ▶
guys they send out into space or into high altitude flight? Right? How do they train them?
[3:34:03 - 3:34:08] ▶
They train them in sensory deprivation tanks. And what do they report when they're in sun step tanks?
[3:34:08 - 3:34:14] ▶
Weird shit. Weird shit.
[3:34:14 - 3:34:16] ▶
They see, they hallucinate all kinds of stuff. Yeah.
[3:34:16 - 3:34:18] ▶
That's the open door. That's the back door at SAC for investigating paranormal phenomena and
[3:34:19 - 3:34:24] ▶
occultism and all this other kind of stuff. That's their back door. Is this a portal into the human
[3:34:24 - 3:34:30] ▶
mind? Does this enable us to go in there? Because something's happening to these guys.
[3:34:30 - 3:34:34] ▶
Yeah. Well, John Lilly, who created the isolation tank, claimed to be in contact with
[3:34:34 - 3:34:39] ▶
two basically forms of non-human intelligence. Echo, the like Earth Control Coordination Office.
[3:34:39 - 3:34:45] ▶
And SSI, I think, solid state intelligence. And the solid state intelligence, I think while he was on
[3:34:46 - 3:34:52] ▶
like ketamine, told him like, I need more resources to like manifest myself into existence. And I think
[3:34:52 - 3:34:59] ▶
he even said silicon, which makes me think like the modern AI race with compute, because all these chips
[3:34:59 - 3:35:04] ▶
are on the Nvidia chips are all silicon. Right.
[3:35:04 - 3:35:07] ▶
So, um, interesting. Well, that's wild. Yeah. You know, um, something that I have to credit to
[3:35:07 - 3:35:13] ▶
Lincoln that he always brings up is the space Delta seven patch. This is, this is now connecting to your
[3:35:13 - 3:35:19] ▶
amazing book, Stairway to Heaven, which I love because it, it creates, you know, if you're looking
[3:35:19 - 3:35:25] ▶
for this Joseph Campbell style kind of underpinning architecture behind all the world's religions,
[3:35:25 - 3:35:32] ▶
you have to look to some of these more esoteric practices and you have in Judaism, the Merkava,
[3:35:32 - 3:35:37] ▶
which is, you know, the idea of Ezekiel going up on the chariot. Um, but you have uncovered all this
[3:35:38 - 3:35:44] ▶
research around seven levels being this recurring theme across Chinese shanking Taoism, Islam, um,
[3:35:44 - 3:35:56] ▶
Rosicrucianism, like all these different, I mean, the ziggurats and heck a load and yeah,
[3:35:56 - 3:36:02] ▶
Sumeria, Egypt, and then obviously Judaism. And it's, it's really remarkable. It's almost like
[3:36:02 - 3:36:08] ▶
there's some underlying kind of objective fabric that then inspires all these other stories,
[3:36:08 - 3:36:15] ▶
but the stories are more incidental to some underlying architecture that involves literally
[3:36:15 - 3:36:20] ▶
ascending through, I guess, you know, uh, uh, what is it? Ursa Major, the, the, the big dipper.
[3:36:20 - 3:36:26] ▶
It's pretty remarkable. Well, and it goes back to the original point that we made
[3:36:26 - 3:36:32] ▶
with the, with sinister, with the secret machines. And that is, there's this, there's this point that
[3:36:32 - 3:36:37] ▶
we became a cargo cult, right? It's possible that these seven stars, the system of seven layers
[3:36:37 - 3:36:42] ▶
is that is, is a manifestation of that. It's that we, we have it imprinted somehow that this is the
[3:36:42 - 3:36:48] ▶
way to go. Um, I talk about in as well, um, the idea of the double helix DNA, which we only discovered in
[3:36:48 - 3:36:55] ▶
the 19, in 1960, right? Or in the 1950s. Anyway, we announced it in 1960, this double helix, the two
[3:36:55 - 3:37:01] ▶
strands of the DNA molecule, double stranded helixes don't exist in nature, except for the DNA molecule,
[3:37:01 - 3:37:10] ▶
but they don't exist in visible nature. They're not part of our world. Single helix, a helix does,
[3:37:10 - 3:37:15] ▶
right? A serpent will go like that, or we'll have examples of it in nature, but not two of them.
[3:37:15 - 3:37:20] ▶
And yet you find it everywhere in ancient art, right? I found a diagram from ancient China,
[3:37:21 - 3:37:27] ▶
going back 600 years in China, where the mother and the father that created the world are depicted as
[3:37:27 - 3:37:34] ▶
two serpents with tails twined about each other, but with human heads, a human male and a human
[3:37:34 - 3:37:40] ▶
female, but their tails are serpents twined around each other. Um, and they're the, they're the parents
[3:37:40 - 3:37:45] ▶
of humans, right? And they're holding one is holding a compass and one is holding a square.
[3:37:45 - 3:37:50] ▶
It's like the Masonic symbols. It doesn't make sense for that to be in China at that time.
[3:37:50 - 3:37:54] ▶
Right. But they're holding Masonic symbols. And that's, that's, that's a whole other thing.
[3:37:54 - 3:37:58] ▶
Isn't that I haven't even gone there. Isn't the Hippocratic symbol like the,
[3:37:58 - 3:38:02] ▶
yeah, right. But with this, the, right. The, uh, the symbol of the, of Mercury, right?
[3:38:03 - 3:38:07] ▶
Yeah. The two serpents around each other, symbol of healing.
[3:38:07 - 3:38:10] ▶
Asclepius. Asclepius. See, I'm talking too long and I'm starting to stumble over my own words.
[3:38:10 - 3:38:17] ▶
Anyway, the God of medicine. Yes. The, the, the twin serpents around a central staff,
[3:38:17 - 3:38:21] ▶
the Russian Orthodox church, the staff for the bishop is exactly that. Two serpents around a
[3:38:21 - 3:38:26] ▶
central staff, but we only saw it in real life in the DNA molecule. Does that mean that DNA has been
[3:38:26 - 3:38:33] ▶
communicating to us because it's in virtually every cell of our body for, you know, as long as we've been
[3:38:33 - 3:38:39] ▶
around and it's giving us this message, it's like imprinting itself in our consciousness somehow.
[3:38:39 - 3:38:43] ▶
If so, then the seven steps, the seven layers, the seven stars to heaven may be part of that.
[3:38:44 - 3:38:49] ▶
So you have these stories of, you know, Ezekiel, Enoch, you, in some interpretation of the book of
[3:38:49 - 3:38:56] ▶
Acts, you could say Jesus was of this variety. Right. Where you go up to heaven, you walk with
[3:38:56 - 3:39:02] ▶
God and then maybe you come back down at some point. Exactly. And do you, do you think that
[3:39:02 - 3:39:07] ▶
these events actually happen? Do you think that a person can ascend to reach, you know,
[3:39:07 - 3:39:13] ▶
to walk with God, to, to, to, to see God's throne, to see the heavens and then come back down? Do you
[3:39:13 - 3:39:18] ▶
think that's possible? Again, the problem is our use of language and words. And what do we mean by all
[3:39:18 - 3:39:22] ▶
this is, is the process real? Yes. People do it. It's real. It has happened. It doesn't happen that
[3:39:22 - 3:39:30] ▶
frequently because you build up a head of steam. Maybe if you are consistent in work on this level,
[3:39:30 - 3:39:39] ▶
it can happen that way. The, the, the Merkava mystics did it right. They, they're living proof
[3:39:39 - 3:39:47] ▶
even today that this process is possible. I mean, every, every year during Yom Kippur is the time
[3:39:47 - 3:39:53] ▶
when certain groups of Jewish mystics then will then descend the chariot. That's when they're
[3:39:53 - 3:39:58] ▶
supposed to do it. That's, you know, that's the time. And the goal is to liberate soul from body
[3:39:58 - 3:40:05] ▶
somehow, or to, to, to liberate spirit from body. The problem then becomes the ideology. So this is
[3:40:05 - 3:40:11] ▶
the problem that I have. So I don't have a problem with Jewish mystics. What I'm saying is that Jewish
[3:40:11 - 3:40:15] ▶
mystics will interpret this as being valuable specifically to, to behold the throne of God
[3:40:15 - 3:40:21] ▶
and to come back down and to tell everybody they've seen it. That's it. End of story. Not to be,
[3:40:21 - 3:40:27] ▶
there's no apotheosis implied. There's no becoming of God. That would be absolute heresy in Judaism,
[3:40:27 - 3:40:34] ▶
as it would be in Christianity, mostly Christianity. So that's considered a no, no, right? You're just
[3:40:34 - 3:40:39] ▶
there to see God and to have the experience and come back. It's kind of implied with Jesus.
[3:40:39 - 3:40:44] ▶
It's implied with Jesus and Jesus actually kind of says it.
[3:40:44 - 3:40:47] ▶
Um, and he also like the miracles ramp up in the book of Acts. Yes. So, but like, I don't know. I
[3:40:48 - 3:40:56] ▶
think most Christians believe he was born the son of God. Right. So he didn't like sort of transform
[3:40:56 - 3:41:01] ▶
post ascending to heaven. It depends which, which interpretation, because so in your interpretation,
[3:41:01 - 3:41:07] ▶
he did transform through this ascent process. You're going to get me in trouble and people are going to
[3:41:07 - 3:41:12] ▶
send, they're going to dox me. Okay. Um, I can say this, I can say that at the time the Bible was
[3:41:12 - 3:41:17] ▶
put into stone, which is 300 years after Christ died, um, a lot of interpretations were looked at,
[3:41:18 - 3:41:25] ▶
selected, and only what we have now is what was kept. That doesn't mean it's necessarily more true
[3:41:25 - 3:41:30] ▶
than the other versions that were out there of which Jesus became godlike because of his practices.
[3:41:30 - 3:41:37] ▶
Um, Jesus had two different personalities. One was divine. One was human, all different kinds of
[3:41:37 - 3:41:42] ▶
so-called heresies were abroad at the time. Uh, we try to, we try to figure out what was the prevailing
[3:41:42 - 3:41:47] ▶
one at the time of Jesus life. And we don't actually know, uh, because nobody was nobody who wrote a
[3:41:47 - 3:41:52] ▶
gospel was around at the time. So, you know, it's all hearsay anyway. Um, so we're trying to put
[3:41:52 - 3:41:58] ▶
together a story and as I always tell people, we still don't know what was on the 18 and a half
[3:41:58 - 3:42:03] ▶
minute oval office tape gap during Watergate. We still don't know that. How do we know what happened?
[3:42:03 - 3:42:08] ▶
You know, 2000 years ago, we're still trying to put that story together.
[3:42:08 - 3:42:11] ▶
Is there, you know, there's the parable of the parties where you have four rabbis try to ascend to
[3:42:12 - 3:42:18] ▶
heaven and only one comes down, you know, intact. Right.
[3:42:18 - 3:42:22] ▶
Is that somehow a really fitting polemic on trying this stuff out when you're not ready? Kabbalah,
[3:42:22 - 3:42:30] ▶
I believe you're supposed to be 35 and like married and very grounded before even starting
[3:42:30 - 3:42:37] ▶
to initiate yourself. 100% all of that. It's because they've seen the danger, right? These
[3:42:38 - 3:42:43] ▶
people know what they're talking about. They have seen the danger. Their, their, their points of view
[3:42:43 - 3:42:47] ▶
about religion, theology, incarnation, reincarnation, life after death may all be different,
[3:42:47 - 3:42:51] ▶
but the process is the same. That's what's so beautiful about this. The process is pretty much
[3:42:52 - 3:42:57] ▶
the same. It involves the same inner practices basically. And it's an interior process for the
[3:42:57 - 3:43:03] ▶
most part, right? It's not really so much an exterior one that can use be used. It can help.
[3:43:03 - 3:43:08] ▶
What is the pro is it? Is it more scientific than like trying to follow virtuous principles and meditate?
[3:43:08 - 3:43:16] ▶
Like what is, is there some sort of formula? Is there, is there an infomercial
[3:43:16 - 3:43:20] ▶
There's a book actually. No, I'm not plugging one of mine. Calm down. This is a book by Mojah
[3:43:23 - 3:43:29] ▶
Edel, very famous Kabbalah scholar, right? Probably the one who inherited the mantle of Gershom Sholem.
[3:43:29 - 3:43:35] ▶
Mojah Edel, very famous, very important guy. Co-authored a book on Kabbalah from a
[3:43:36 - 3:43:41] ▶
scientific perspective, from a consciousness, psychological perspective. A very grounded
[3:43:41 - 3:43:48] ▶
one, not kind of a purely like a Jungian approach to it, which, you know, you can find in a lot of
[3:43:48 - 3:43:54] ▶
places. This is based on neuroscience. And I can't think of the title of the book off the top of my head.
[3:43:54 - 3:44:00] ▶
But if you look up Mojah Edel, you'll find the book limited. It's about limited. You'll find the book
[3:44:00 - 3:44:06] ▶
yeah, limited probably, but you will find it. It's not like the major books that Edel has written,
[3:44:08 - 3:44:12] ▶
but you will find it listed. And it's, it's a coauthored with the scientists, with the neuroscientists.
[3:44:12 - 3:44:16] ▶
And they go through it and they figure, what does this really mean in terms of neuroscience?
[3:44:16 - 3:44:20] ▶
Hmm. So it is a grounded approach to Kabbalah from that perspective. It's fascinating.
[3:44:20 - 3:44:24] ▶
Hmm. And I highly recommend it if you're interested in that and seeing if this can be part of science,
[3:44:24 - 3:44:30] ▶
if it can be part of a grounded approach to this material without taking on board all of the
[3:44:30 - 3:44:35] ▶
religious symbolisms and restrictions and everything else that's involved, but understanding what those
[3:44:35 - 3:44:40] ▶
restrictions mean, what, what is the effect of it? What should, should, should somebody have,
[3:44:40 - 3:44:44] ▶
what, what orientation should somebody have towards this? Because I, you know, I think
[3:44:45 - 3:44:49] ▶
it's like staring at the sun a little bit, right? Like you can,
[3:44:50 - 3:44:53] ▶
you can be really bad for you if you, if you do too much of it. Like, I think, uh,
[3:44:53 - 3:44:57] ▶
sometimes I think, you know, just life has everything in it that you need and trying to
[3:44:58 - 3:45:02] ▶
bust out of some sort of simulation and look for some sort of forbidden esoteric knowledge is
[3:45:02 - 3:45:08] ▶
it's usually doesn't end well. Right. So like, what's the right.
[3:45:09 - 3:45:12] ▶
I agree completely with what you just said. Um,
[3:45:12 - 3:45:15] ▶
I would recommend it for most people just being cool and getting through life as peacefully as you
[3:45:17 - 3:45:22] ▶
possibly can. The difficulty only comes when life itself has other plans. When life is starting
[3:45:22 - 3:45:29] ▶
to make you look, then it might be a good idea to look. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think some people
[3:45:29 - 3:45:36] ▶
need that impetus from outside before they do it. And that's probably a good thing. I think if you're
[3:45:36 - 3:45:41] ▶
just living a normal life and you're perfectly peaceful and happy with the way it is, why rock the boat?
[3:45:41 - 3:45:44] ▶
I feel that a hundred percent. Um, I wish I could have done that right from the beginning, but I got thrown
[3:45:44 - 3:45:51] ▶
into this, like in the deep end. So I had to make my way somehow. Um, and the idea is, like I say, to maintain
[3:45:51 - 3:45:58] ▶
a sense of humor about it. It's about all that keeps you even, you know, because it can get weird. If not dark,
[3:45:58 - 3:46:04] ▶
it just gets weird. And the weirdness, you know, doesn't make sense to you. And if you focus too much on the weirdness,
[3:46:04 - 3:46:10] ▶
you find yourself going a little too weird. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I find that to be the case
[3:46:10 - 3:46:15] ▶
with UFO research. Like it's somehow you often find it's like, this feels like Dante's Inferno.
[3:46:15 - 3:46:21] ▶
Yeah. It's like, it was just weird vibes everywhere. Yeah.
[3:46:21 - 3:46:24] ▶
Like you'd go to some of these conferences and it's like, you might as well, a hundred years ago,
[3:46:24 - 3:46:27] ▶
you would have been in some sort of seance, like some new thought, like weird, you know, and it's,
[3:46:27 - 3:46:32] ▶
people have bizarre self conceptions and it's not often an expression of some honest,
[3:46:34 - 3:46:40] ▶
you know, intellectual understanding of a thing. It's like their own desire to be differentiated or
[3:46:41 - 3:46:46] ▶
there are a lot of messianic characters. Uh, you know, you would think that people covering the
[3:46:47 - 3:46:52] ▶
subject are like super altruistic, but like they're, they can be like the sharkiest, you know,
[3:46:52 - 3:46:57] ▶
people in the world. And like they're, I know from personal experience. Yeah. It's so weird.
[3:46:57 - 3:47:02] ▶
So when you have, this is the problem that I, I think I mentioned the secret space conference
[3:47:02 - 3:47:08] ▶
that started all this for me.
[3:47:08 - 3:47:10] ▶
When you can't get a straight answer on something, it opens up the field to anybody who has an
[3:47:11 - 3:47:17] ▶
imaginary answer. Right. Right. When you don't have a real answer, something you can agree on,
[3:47:17 - 3:47:22] ▶
something you can rely on, then any huckster can come on board and tell you anything and you can't
[3:47:22 - 3:47:27] ▶
disprove it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No one's out disproving it. I heard wild stuff during the contact
[3:47:27 - 3:47:33] ▶
in the desert stuff. You know, stuff that I know is absolutely impossible, but it doesn't matter
[3:47:33 - 3:47:38] ▶
because the government, you know, we don't trust the government. Yeah. The government's not telling
[3:47:38 - 3:47:43] ▶
us the truth. So it could be possible. It could be possible. We're sending ships to Europa on a
[3:47:43 - 3:47:48] ▶
regular basis. And we're, we're trade. We have contracts or contracts with the aliens. That's the
[3:47:48 - 3:47:53] ▶
thing that kills me. Right. Oh, you know, Eisenhower or somebody signed a, you know, a contract with the
[3:47:53 - 3:47:59] ▶
aliens back in the 1950s. There's a, there's a, there's a directive that it's in place. I'm thinking,
[3:47:59 - 3:48:04] ▶
are you fucking kidding me? In what language is it? Yeah. You know, and who enforces that contract?
[3:48:04 - 3:48:11] ▶
Yeah. You know, I've been in business a long time before I became known for this stuff.
[3:48:11 - 3:48:15] ▶
I was doing contract negotiations in China. You know how difficult that is?
[3:48:16 - 3:48:20] ▶
Well, this is really refreshing and cool to hear because you, you came close again to like these
[3:48:20 - 3:48:27] ▶
very high ups in the government who seem to be as embedded in the UFO topic as, as, as anyone.
[3:48:27 - 3:48:33] ▶
And so I am really curious, like what is your, so, so you think that the 54 Eisenhower treaty
[3:48:34 - 3:48:40] ▶
thing is ridiculous, you know, I'm with, I don't have any serious, but you know, it's like, I've spoken
[3:48:40 - 3:48:48] ▶
to like Richard Dolan, who's a really smart, cool, earnest guy, not one of the weird UFO researchers.
[3:48:48 - 3:48:53] ▶
He's great. He's kind of this legendary, you know, and he like lends credence to the MJ 12 documents,
[3:48:53 - 3:48:58] ▶
which talk about, you know, this, and there are certain things in the MJ 12 documents that
[3:48:58 - 3:49:02] ▶
do somehow know about certain meetings and dullest diary entries that like no other source did that
[3:49:04 - 3:49:10] ▶
came out before these entries came out later. So.
[3:49:10 - 3:49:13] ▶
Well, don't let me forget them because you mentioned MJ 12.
[3:49:13 - 3:49:16] ▶
Uh, two stories on that short ones. One is Michael Aquino again. The reason I brought Aquino up in
[3:49:16 - 3:49:22] ▶
the first place and totally forgot about it was the fact that in our conversations and our lengthy
[3:49:22 - 3:49:26] ▶
email back and forth, we were talking about cryptonyms, right? So MK for MK ultra, right?
[3:49:26 - 3:49:32] ▶
So did that mean mind control? No, of course not. It was just alphabetically. That's where K showed up,
[3:49:32 - 3:49:36] ▶
you know? So that's what it was for. Um, and then, you know, MJ, the MJ, you know, cryptonym.
[3:49:36 - 3:49:42] ▶
Uh, oh, he says, oh yeah, MJ, we had that in, um, that was in space command. We use that for
[3:49:42 - 3:49:48] ▶
non-terrestrial biologics, right? What? And I said, what, what are you talking about?
[3:49:48 - 3:49:54] ▶
I said, do you realize what you just said? He says, no. What? He says, haven't you heard about
[3:49:54 - 3:49:57] ▶
the MJ 12 documents and all this stuff? He says, what do you mean UFO stuff? I said, no,
[3:49:57 - 3:50:00] ▶
I don't believe in any of that. He says, what we meant by that was anything that came down
[3:50:00 - 3:50:05] ▶
like a rocket ship reentering our atmosphere, a meteor or an asteroid or something. If there
[3:50:05 - 3:50:10] ▶
was organic material on it, it was non-human biologicals. Ah, whoa. So like any sort of
[3:50:10 - 3:50:17] ▶
hydrocarbons on some weird meteor from, you know, Mars or something, right? But not like bodies,
[3:50:18 - 3:50:24] ▶
but it meant MJ meant non-human biologics. You see? And then your mind goes to like,
[3:50:24 - 3:50:32] ▶
Aquino didn't know the real program because it's somehow, like, did he, would he have had like,
[3:50:32 - 3:50:37] ▶
you know, like the highest levels of access? I mean, I spoke to him.
[3:50:37 - 3:50:40] ▶
Cause your mind then goes to like, that's an awfully crazy coincidence. And maybe MJ 12 was.
[3:50:40 - 3:50:45] ▶
This, this is the problem that I have. Right. And I talked to Stanton Friedman. Yeah. At the last time
[3:50:45 - 3:50:50] ▶
that he has tended, I think, contact in the desert. Legendary, legendary researcher,
[3:50:50 - 3:50:54] ▶
legendary researcher and promoter of the MJ 12 documents. Right. And I sat down with him just
[3:50:54 - 3:50:59] ▶
briefly. Uh, and I said, listen, man, I know all the controversy about it, but I've done a lot of
[3:50:59 - 3:51:05] ▶
research at the archives and a lot of research at the library of Congress. Those documents to me look
[3:51:05 - 3:51:10] ▶
real. I mean, whoever went to the work involved to make them look real as, as this, they've been
[3:51:10 - 3:51:17] ▶
criticized by different people. And then later on, not, not, not so much. I said, I've looked at them.
[3:51:17 - 3:51:22] ▶
My God, did they spend a lot of work and time and effort to do that for what nobody made a dime off
[3:51:22 - 3:51:27] ▶
of it. Right. It wasn't like they were doing it for money. So what the hell were they doing it for?
[3:51:27 - 3:51:32] ▶
If it is a hoax by whom? And for what, right. What, what did they gain by it? It's, it's now become
[3:51:32 - 3:51:38] ▶
a kind of meme. So do you, so you don't think it was a hoax. I see. Again, I work on evidence.
[3:51:38 - 3:51:45] ▶
I'm a real evidence-based person, believe it or not. And for me, my evidence to me is it's a
[3:51:45 - 3:51:52] ▶
really good hoax. If it is a hoax, I'm in two minds of it. Maybe it's not a hoax, right? But
[3:51:52 - 3:51:56] ▶
that's my other point is it could be a really good hoax. If it's a really good hoax, qui bono?
[3:51:56 - 3:52:02] ▶
Who benefited? Why? What for? That's the story. Totally. But then if it's not a hoax, then all of
[3:52:02 - 3:52:07] ▶
a sudden the 1954, you know, Eisenhower treaty with the aliens, unless it's a hoax that mentions that to
[3:52:07 - 3:52:14] ▶
throw everybody off. Totally. It's hard. That's the hoax. Right.
[3:52:14 - 3:52:17] ▶
So, so do you, do you feel like you came out of your interactions with some of these people?
[3:52:17 - 3:52:21] ▶
Cause like TTSA, which you were involved with, had a lot of really high up impressive government
[3:52:21 - 3:52:27] ▶
people. You know, you had Jim Semivan, who's high up at the CIA, seems to be super knowledgeable
[3:52:27 - 3:52:32] ▶
about UFOs, you know, even at his time at the CIA. And afterwards you have, uh, Chris Mellon,
[3:52:32 - 3:52:38] ▶
who's deputy assistant secretary of defense intelligence under Clinton and Bush been to
[3:52:38 - 3:52:44] ▶
area 51 many times. Uh, you have Hal Puthoff, of course, who's, you know, Institute of advanced
[3:52:44 - 3:52:50] ▶
study out here in Austin, who just seems to know, like every time you run into a new scientific
[3:52:50 - 3:52:56] ▶
accomplishment in the UFO field, it's like, he's already there. Right. So you have all these guys
[3:52:56 - 3:53:00] ▶
who are a part of this thing and you're a part of it. I've met all of them. And you've met all of them.
[3:53:00 - 3:53:04] ▶
So yeah, you're a part of it as well. And so do you feel like you have a sense of what's
[3:53:04 - 3:53:09] ▶
going on after that experience?
[3:53:09 - 3:53:11] ▶
I had a meeting here in Austin. Okay. Um, a couple of years ago. Well,
[3:53:13 - 3:53:17] ▶
must be longer than that now. Uh, with Tom DeLonge. Yeah. Chris Mellon, Hal Puthoff,
[3:53:18 - 3:53:24] ▶
Jacques Vallée, all in the same room for me, it was a thrill because I had never met Hal or Jacques before.
[3:53:25 - 3:53:30] ▶
And I had written about them in various places, but never actually sat in the same room.
[3:53:30 - 3:53:33] ▶
And Chris Mellon, right. Who I met for the first time. And we sat, we spent the entire day here
[3:53:34 - 3:53:39] ▶
with masses of documents and papers and stuff. And Tom was trying to get, we had a conference room
[3:53:41 - 3:53:46] ▶
arranged and all of us were trying to figure out what the hell was going on with the UFO thing.
[3:53:46 - 3:53:50] ▶
And we have all these guys here together to brainstorm this, right? Try brainstorming this
[3:53:50 - 3:53:55] ▶
with three guys who have NDAs and security clearances up the ass and they cannot talk to you about
[3:53:56 - 3:54:02] ▶
anything. Right. So now you're in a room with them and you're trying to wheedle out of them.
[3:54:02 - 3:54:07] ▶
Yeah. Something. Yeah. Like read their eyes or whatever. Yeah, exactly. You're trying to look
[3:54:07 - 3:54:11] ▶
at body language. I mean, it's like, you know, what are we doing here? Right. And so we're trying our
[3:54:11 - 3:54:16] ▶
best, you know, but they're all very, you know, and, uh, we would get close to something and we get
[3:54:16 - 3:54:21] ▶
some good information. I would write scribbling like mad. I have all those notes, right? Just scribbling on the
[3:54:21 - 3:54:26] ▶
notes of this thing. What are we talking about? What is this? Even some, you know, just little
[3:54:26 - 3:54:30] ▶
bits and pieces of extraneous information might be valuable. So I write that down. What color paper
[3:54:30 - 3:54:34] ▶
was it? I write that down. So we're doing all of this and we're spending the whole day there. I think
[3:54:34 - 3:54:39] ▶
Vallée may have mentioned it even in his last latest book, maybe mentioned it in passing. And, you know,
[3:54:39 - 3:54:46] ▶
we're, we're trying to get to the bottom of this thing, but what was really important were the things
[3:54:46 - 3:54:52] ▶
they did not say, could not say, and refuse to say. So we would ask a question about
[3:54:52 - 3:54:58] ▶
Skinwalker Ranch. That was the one that sticks out in my memory. We asked about something concerning
[3:55:00 - 3:55:06] ▶
Skinwalker Ranch and an appearance at Skinwalker Ranch and the equipment that was there picking up the
[3:55:06 - 3:55:13] ▶
stuff. Right. I think John Alexander writes about these things peripherally and other people do.
[3:55:13 - 3:55:16] ▶
We asked about it. They all got silent. They suddenly all stopped talking.
[3:55:17 - 3:55:22] ▶
Chris, Hal, Jacques said nothing. And then Hal finally looked around and said, well,
[3:55:22 - 3:55:29] ▶
we need a skiff for this one. And that was all he had to say.
[3:55:30 - 3:55:34] ▶
David Wright- Skinwalker.
[3:55:34 - 3:55:35] ▶
Paul Jayne- For Skinwalker.
[3:55:35 - 3:55:36] ▶
Paul Jayne- And he wouldn't say.
[3:55:36 - 3:55:38] ▶
David Wright- It was a TV show for God's sakes on the history channel.
[3:55:38 - 3:55:41] ▶
Paul Jayne- Yeah. But Skinwalker Ranch became this thing. We don't, this was fight club. And we suddenly,
[3:55:41 - 3:55:48] ▶
we don't talk about it. Right. So that stunned me. I wrote, I copied this. Oh my God, we can't talk
[3:55:48 - 3:55:54] ▶
about Skinwalker. Not about Skinwalker in general, but something very specific about Skinwalker. Right.
[3:55:54 - 3:55:59] ▶
About the equipment they were using and what they were tracking and what data they had collected,
[3:55:59 - 3:56:05] ▶
I think was how the conversation started. And I think that's where suddenly everybody went quiet.
[3:56:05 - 3:56:11] ▶
So there was something happening at Skinwalker.
[3:56:11 - 3:56:13] ▶
David Wright- Any other notable omissions?
[3:56:13 - 3:56:15] ▶
Paul Jayne- Nothing, nothing particularly unnotable. We would try to act, ask blatant questions like,
[3:56:15 - 3:56:21] ▶
you know, how many, how many captured, you know, spacecraft do you have? How many saucers are there?
[3:56:21 - 3:56:25] ▶
You know? So they would just sort of look and shrug and kind of, you know, not answer it. And then,
[3:56:25 - 3:56:29] ▶
like we were not being serious or something. We tried to get another attack. We tried another attack.
[3:56:29 - 3:56:33] ▶
We spent the whole day, I'm talking, we had lunch, we kept on going. We spent the whole day
[3:56:33 - 3:56:37] ▶
here in Austin doing exactly that and getting basically not very close, except
[3:56:37 - 3:56:43] ▶
maybe for the impression that we all got, that Tom and I definitely got. And I think the impression
[3:56:44 - 3:56:51] ▶
they wanted us to get was that this was serious business. This was not like idle curiosity on the
[3:56:51 - 3:56:58] ▶
part of the people in government or industry who were involved in this. This was something very
[3:56:58 - 3:57:02] ▶
serious that we were there. It was being taken very seriously by people who had very serious credentials
[3:57:02 - 3:57:09] ▶
and that the security clearances for this information was stratospheric and that you
[3:57:09 - 3:57:16] ▶
really, and kind of an indication as to how classifications work, you know, and how difficult
[3:57:16 - 3:57:24] ▶
it is to penetrate certain types of classifications. Like we're kind of think there's secret,
[3:57:24 - 3:57:29] ▶
there's top secret, not much else, but there's a lot of gray areas, right? And a lot of abuse of the
[3:57:29 - 3:57:35] ▶
classification system as well. But there's just a lot of gray areas where this is concerned and things
[3:57:35 - 3:57:41] ▶
can be classified just because, you know, person A tells person B and person B tells no one else.
[3:57:41 - 3:57:46] ▶
And that's as far as it goes, right? So sometimes that's the classification, you know, you can't get,
[3:57:46 - 3:57:52] ▶
unless you have the right words, the right clearances yourself, know the right things to
[3:57:53 - 3:57:57] ▶
say to the right people, you don't get the right information. And the re the reverse of that,
[3:57:57 - 3:58:04] ▶
what that really means to me as a researcher myself is that they themselves will know what the hell is
[3:58:04 - 3:58:09] ▶
going on. If things are that classified, there's only who knows then, then that means there's a whole
[3:58:09 - 3:58:16] ▶
bunch of scientists and researchers who could be working on this program, on this problem who are not,
[3:58:16 - 3:58:21] ▶
you know, people that we need to be focused on this are not because they don't have the clearances
[3:58:21 - 3:58:26] ▶
because they smoke dope when they were 17, maybe, and can't get the clearance, right?
[3:58:27 - 3:58:31] ▶
Or whatever it is, whatever kind of weird cockamay be regulations they have for this,
[3:58:31 - 3:58:35] ▶
or they can't get fluttered every year, you know, the lie detectors to determine, you know,
[3:58:35 - 3:58:39] ▶
did you do this? Did you do that? I mean, the way they conduct clearance investigations,
[3:58:39 - 3:58:43] ▶
right? At CIA or any place else, it's really tough to do, right? So then you got to go higher than
[3:58:43 - 3:58:48] ▶
that, higher than that, higher than that. You have to go need to know, right? So there's need to know
[3:58:48 - 3:58:52] ▶
type of clearance. Are you need to know? Are you read in because you're need to know?
[3:58:52 - 3:58:56] ▶
And it gets stultifying. So at a certain point, you've got people who should be working on this,
[3:58:56 - 3:59:00] ▶
who I'm sure are not working on it. And that's the problem. If they do know something,
[3:59:00 - 3:59:05] ▶
it ain't much. I don't think there is a lot that they know.
[3:59:06 - 3:59:08] ▶
I think they have evidence. They don't know what to do with it.
[3:59:09 - 3:59:12] ▶
The, the, the blind men touching the elephant, I think is really good analogy, touching different
[3:59:12 - 3:59:17] ▶
parts of an elephant and their left hand's not talking to the right. It's not coordinated.
[3:59:17 - 3:59:21] ▶
All of a sudden you have a multipolar world and tensions are rising and the impetus to figure out
[3:59:21 - 3:59:27] ▶
whatever's going on probably increases. But simultaneously at the highest levels, you can't
[3:59:27 - 3:59:32] ▶
really admit that you have no idea. It's like the Havana syndrome stuff where it's like, they wouldn't
[3:59:32 - 3:59:37] ▶
talk about it for the longest time because they didn't really understand what was going on. And
[3:59:37 - 3:59:41] ▶
I don't think there was a great defense against it. Um, so.
[3:59:41 - 3:59:45] ▶
Well, what do you do when you have somebody like, you mentioned Jim Semivan, right?
[3:59:45 - 3:59:49] ▶
Jim Semivan comes out and blatantly, openly talks about a kind of an abduction experience.
[3:59:50 - 3:59:55] ▶
That he and his wife.
[3:59:55 - 3:59:56] ▶
That he and his wife had.
[3:59:56 - 3:59:57] ▶
I mean, here's somebody very high up at CIA at the time. Right. And this happens. What are the
[3:59:58 - 4:00:06] ▶
security implications? Yeah.
[4:00:06 - 4:00:09] ▶
Just stop right there. Just stop right there. Everybody listening. Stop right there. A high
[4:00:09 - 4:00:13] ▶
ranking member of CIA is abducted by an alien. Yeah.
[4:00:13 - 4:00:17] ▶
Or has that experience.
[4:00:17 - 4:00:18] ▶
And I think it was fairly traumatic. I think his.
[4:00:18 - 4:00:20] ▶
And his wife had a traumatic.
[4:00:21 - 4:00:22] ▶
Particularly bad experience. Yeah.
[4:00:22 - 4:00:24] ▶
What are the security implications of that?
[4:00:24 - 4:00:26] ▶
That's the story he hasn't told. I'm sure he will never tell.
[4:00:28 - 4:00:30] ▶
I mean, we know he was visited by people from the government, right? This, he pretty much is open
[4:00:31 - 4:00:35] ▶
about that. But then it dies. The story dies after that. What do you do? How do you handle it?
[4:00:35 - 4:00:41] ▶
How do you write up your report? Who sees that report? Who acts on that report? What are your
[4:00:41 - 4:00:46] ▶
recommendations based on that report? Think about it in terms of government. Think about it in terms of the
[4:00:46 - 4:00:50] ▶
intelligence agencies, the military. How do you handle that information? What do you
[4:00:50 - 4:00:54] ▶
do you do? If you're in that position, what do you do? How do you handle it?
[4:00:54 - 4:00:58] ▶
Well, totally. And I think it's a really tricky problem. You probably try to do what they did
[4:00:58 - 4:01:04] ▶
through to the stars Academy, where you try to let the thing out through like.
[4:01:04 - 4:01:09] ▶
You do what you can.
[4:01:09 - 4:01:10] ▶
You do what you can or whatever. Have you ever read the book,
[4:01:10 - 4:01:13] ▶
Crypto's Conundrum? Are you familiar with that?
[4:01:13 - 4:01:15] ▶
I haven't started it yet.
[4:01:15 - 4:01:16] ▶
Lincoln is responsible for it.
[4:01:17 - 4:01:18] ▶
Yeah. He recommended it to me too. It's by Chase Brandon, who's this, that's a pseudonym. He's the
[4:01:18 - 4:01:24] ▶
CIA liaison in Hollywood. And it's remarkable because the only reason I bring it up is because
[4:01:24 - 4:01:29] ▶
you have this kind of committee that's responsible for like timeline management.
[4:01:30 - 4:01:34] ▶
Right. And it's like these top kind of Intel guys. And I think it comes out of the OSS actually,
[4:01:34 - 4:01:41] ▶
this committee. And, um, these beings sort of paranormally show up to everybody on the committee,
[4:01:41 - 4:01:48] ▶
like independently and coordinate them together in a way through like synchronicity engineering or
[4:01:48 - 4:01:54] ▶
something. And you read books like that or childhood's end by Arthur C. Clark. And you start to ask
[4:01:54 - 4:02:01] ▶
questions like around, like, if these things are happening at the highest levels of government,
[4:02:01 - 4:02:07] ▶
what are the coordination systems above the government itself that are like bringing these
[4:02:08 - 4:02:13] ▶
people together? Of course, you're not going to want to disclose that any of that is happening if it
[4:02:13 - 4:02:18] ▶
is happening. And it, all of a sudden you, you, you move from this conversation of like,
[4:02:18 - 4:02:24] ▶
oh, the government needs to disclose. It needs to disclose what it knows. Like it knows everything
[4:02:24 - 4:02:29] ▶
to this way more nuanced, interesting conversation where like the government's full of people,
[4:02:29 - 4:02:34] ▶
civilians are people. You have just as much access to the, you know, maybe they have some, you know,
[4:02:35 - 4:02:40] ▶
they have like nuclear capabilities and the UFOs show up more there. They have aerospace stuff. And so
[4:02:40 - 4:02:45] ▶
there are implications on UFOs for that, but outside of like a couple of like asymmetric data points,
[4:02:45 - 4:02:51] ▶
they're humans and your humans and the, uh, the, whatever these NHI are, are like
[4:02:51 - 4:02:57] ▶
wielding all sorts of like power flying around their airspace with impunity there.
[4:02:58 - 4:03:03] ▶
And so you gotta stop looking for like quote unquote big D disclosure. Like it's not happening.
[4:03:03 - 4:03:10] ▶
Um, if anything, it's like these pockets of knowledge and they're probably learning from as much
[4:03:10 - 4:03:15] ▶
of the open source stuff as like civilian researchers are. And at best you have vital
[4:03:15 - 4:03:21] ▶
institutional substructures with some hermetic weird knowledge or something of the phenomena. But like,
[4:03:22 - 4:03:28] ▶
yeah, the idea that it's like, you know, held on high is ridiculous.
[4:03:28 - 4:03:33] ▶
Right. I a hundred percent agree with that. That's, that's the point we were trying to make in our,
[4:03:33 - 4:03:36] ▶
our books and our presentations as well. You are the disclosure, you know, you are part of disclosure
[4:03:36 - 4:03:41] ▶
to believe that if there's NHI, that they're only going to talk to generals in the U S government,
[4:03:41 - 4:03:50] ▶
right? Or the president is come on.
[4:03:50 - 4:03:53] ▶
Like they care about any of that.
[4:03:53 - 4:03:54] ▶
As if they know or care have any
[4:03:54 - 4:03:55] ▶
Frame of reference for it.
[4:03:56 - 4:03:57] ▶
Why would they? They're attracted to all the troop movements for obvious reasons,
[4:03:58 - 4:04:02] ▶
weird shits going on. Let's take a look. Right.
[4:04:02 - 4:04:04] ▶
Yeah. It seems like they're attracted to that. And then it seems like they're attracted to people who
[4:04:04 - 4:04:07] ▶
achieve peak states of consciousness and you have people like Bledsoe and stuff where you're like,
[4:04:07 - 4:04:14] ▶
I believe a lot of these stories. And so, but I think they're thinking about criteria that are not
[4:04:14 - 4:04:20] ▶
the human criteria of status and achievement. That's the point we make in our books. You know,
[4:04:20 - 4:04:25] ▶
we stopped looking for this anthropomorphizing of the alien, right? We're giving them human qualities
[4:04:25 - 4:04:31] ▶
and human ideas. We think they must, of course they'll want to talk to the president. Why?
[4:04:31 - 4:04:35] ▶
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[4:04:35 - 4:04:36] ▶
And of course there's a contract. How is there a contract?
[4:04:36 - 4:04:39] ▶
We can't even discuss among ourselves and understand what we're talking about. How are we talking to an
[4:04:39 - 4:04:43] ▶
alien? You know how hard it is to translate to Chinese, a business contract? Yeah.
[4:04:43 - 4:04:47] ▶
I mean, you know, we can't solve that problem yet. Yeah.
[4:04:47 - 4:04:50] ▶
Right? There's, there's all kinds of vagueness in between all of our languages. We're not
[4:04:50 - 4:04:56] ▶
comfortable with it. We're not comfortable with each other's, you know, skin color for crying out loud.
[4:04:56 - 4:05:00] ▶
We're, we're still fighting those fights after all these years. What if an NHI shows up?
[4:05:00 - 4:05:05] ▶
It's, it's, they don't care. Suddenly all of our problems, you know, that famous book, the bell curve,
[4:05:05 - 4:05:11] ▶
they try to show, you know, different kinds of racial characteristics. This race is better
[4:05:11 - 4:05:15] ▶
than this race or something. Yeah. In the face of the alien, the curve is flat. We're all pretty much in
[4:05:15 - 4:05:20] ▶
the same boat, right? The alien is something other. That's the whole definition of this, right? It's not
[4:05:20 - 4:05:26] ▶
human. So it doesn't care. It doesn't care about your politics. It doesn't care about your
[4:05:26 - 4:05:31] ▶
organizations. It doesn't care about your belief systems. It cares about none of that. None of that
[4:05:31 - 4:05:36] ▶
doesn't care about your language. None of that is relevant. Right? So on that note, are aliens related
[4:05:36 - 4:05:42] ▶
to biblical conceptions of angels and demons? Cause I, I, I agree with you. Like, I think these
[4:05:42 - 4:05:48] ▶
conversations are really hard to have if you're just a human being. And it's funny to see, like,
[4:05:48 - 4:05:53] ▶
you'll see Sean Ryan go on Tucker Carlson and the UFO thing will come up and Sean Ryan will go,
[4:05:53 - 4:05:58] ▶
you know, I think it's spiritual. And then like, Tucker Carlson was like, I think it's spiritual too.
[4:05:58 - 4:06:02] ▶
Right. Yeah. And it's just like, they're force fitting. And then you, you ask them one more
[4:06:02 - 4:06:06] ▶
question, right? What's an angel and what's a demon? They'll have no idea what these things are. And
[4:06:06 - 4:06:11] ▶
there are, you know, thinkers, historical religious thinkers, um, like, you know, Lincoln likes to bring up
[4:06:11 - 4:06:17] ▶
Iamblichus, you know, there's some others with, you know, St. Thomas Aquinas with taxonomies,
[4:06:17 - 4:06:21] ▶
Sure. Hierarchies of angels and demons. Do you think what people experience today in the form of
[4:06:21 - 4:06:27] ▶
quote unquote, extraterrestrial visitation are actually the angels and demons from the Bible?
[4:06:27 - 4:06:34] ▶
Can you define your terms, please? I don't know what I'm talking about.
[4:06:34 - 4:06:38] ▶
Okay. Basically there are very few angels and very few demons in the Bible. That's a misconception,
[4:06:38 - 4:06:44] ▶
right? We think that's full of angels and demons, but actually it's not.
[4:06:44 - 4:06:46] ▶
Well, what about that book on principalities and you know what I'm talking about?
[4:06:46 - 4:06:50] ▶
We think we know what that word means, but as we find with biblical scholarship, we really don't.
[4:06:50 - 4:06:55] ▶
Like Cheruvium, right? We think we know what that means, right? And we have this, the English word
[4:06:55 - 4:07:01] ▶
cherub, which has no relationship at all, right? To the original term. So it's been balderized a great
[4:07:01 - 4:07:06] ▶
deal. The Cheruvium were actually beings, right? They were, had wings and they might have been quasi-spiritual.
[4:07:06 - 4:07:12] ▶
Calling them angels might've been a bit of a misnomer. The seven ranks of angels came later,
[4:07:12 - 4:07:17] ▶
seraphim, cherubim, et cetera, et cetera, angels, archangels, and all the rest. That's like a later
[4:07:17 - 4:07:22] ▶
development, right? But in, in terms of purely biblical origins, I don't think we have much in
[4:07:22 - 4:07:26] ▶
the way. The devil really doesn't show up. You know, the adversary shows up.
[4:07:26 - 4:07:31] ▶
Well, in the book of Job, the devil shows up, yeah.
[4:07:31 - 4:07:33] ▶
But we, we call that the devil, but that's not really his role. He was really a lawyer for the,
[4:07:33 - 4:07:39] ▶
for the prosecution, right? And in God's court saying, I can prove that this guy is, you know,
[4:07:39 - 4:07:44] ▶
not reliable. Is Lucifer not the most luminous, like God's favorite angel who then sort of,
[4:07:44 - 4:07:51] ▶
you know, according to later texts, right? Lucifer means the light, the one who bears light,
[4:07:51 - 4:07:56] ▶
the light bearing one. Yeah. And look, going back to Blavatsky, Lucifer was like her main man,
[4:07:56 - 4:08:01] ▶
right? All right. So they call the, the, the, the loosest trust, right? Right. And there's,
[4:08:01 - 4:08:05] ▶
Lucifer is all entwined with this concept that Lucifer was the shining angel.
[4:08:05 - 4:08:09] ▶
So this isn't the Prometheus basically. Yes. So in this, this thing keeps coming up,
[4:08:09 - 4:08:15] ▶
Lucifer, the loosest trust, like, like there's this VP of, um, space systems at Lockheed Martin,
[4:08:15 - 4:08:21] ▶
this guy, Jim Ryder. Have you heard of him? Oh yeah.
[4:08:21 - 4:08:23] ▶
So he, uh, it seems like he was part of some sort of legacy UFO program because we, you have
[4:08:23 - 4:08:29] ▶
congressional hearings where everybody's talking about, and David Grush talks about this.
[4:08:29 - 4:08:35] ▶
Elizondo talks about this. George Knapp testified in front of Congress about this.
[4:08:35 - 4:08:39] ▶
This seems like if there's any sort of commonplace knowledge in modern contemporary UFO,
[4:08:39 - 4:08:44] ▶
you know, stories, this transfer of UFO material from Lockheed Martin using some sort of, uh,
[4:08:44 - 4:08:51] ▶
special access program to Bigelow air aerospace. Right.
[4:08:51 - 4:08:55] ▶
And this was headed up by a guy named Jim Ryder, who's VP of space systems at Lockheed Martin.
[4:08:55 - 4:09:00] ▶
He was speaking at this event for a loosest trust, which is this publishing house around like really
[4:09:00 - 4:09:06] ▶
esoteric weird knowledge. And he's talking about devas and fairies and angels. And he's talking
[4:09:06 - 4:09:14] ▶
about, I think it's called Garment of the God. And he's talking about almost like, um, like things
[4:09:14 - 4:09:20] ▶
are becoming unveiled. Like, you know, the apocalypse is starting or something. And he talks about
[4:09:20 - 4:09:25] ▶
parapsychology and he says, you know, and, and all these other countries, you know, it's not stigmatized,
[4:09:25 - 4:09:32] ▶
but because we live in the West, you know, the mind matter connection is supposed to be this totally,
[4:09:32 - 4:09:37] ▶
you know, we're, we're, you're supposed to be, the mind is supposed to be totally separate from matter.
[4:09:37 - 4:09:41] ▶
And it's this VP of, of, at Lockheed Martin.
[4:09:42 - 4:09:44] ▶
So what's going on there?
[4:09:45 - 4:09:46] ▶
And not VP to human resources.
[4:09:46 - 4:09:49] ▶
No, he's not VP of HR.
[4:09:49 - 4:09:51] ▶
So, yeah, you can't, I think, I think it's, it's, it's happened everywhere. It's happened in Congress.
[4:09:52 - 4:10:00] ▶
Also, they start to get wind of some of this and their fallback position is angels and demons, right?
[4:10:00 - 4:10:07] ▶
They're, they're frightened of it. It's been this way since the seventies. There've been attempts to get
[4:10:08 - 4:10:12] ▶
the UFO field acknowledged, at least in Congress, that we have to do something. We have to at least study it.
[4:10:12 - 4:10:18] ▶
And it's been blocked by groups who felt that, that God does not want us to do this. This is in
[4:10:18 - 4:10:22] ▶
Congress. This is why I wrote sinister forces, right? Because every time I turn around, we think
[4:10:22 - 4:10:27] ▶
we're getting close to something and a bunch of religious fanatics come out of the woodwork and
[4:10:27 - 4:10:31] ▶
say, no, no, you can't look at that. That's, that's soft. You know, so there's, there's this rumor of
[4:10:31 - 4:10:36] ▶
the Collins elite, this evangelical Christian group that does this. Do you know anything about them?
[4:10:36 - 4:10:41] ▶
Cause they're written about by Nick Redfern.
[4:10:41 - 4:10:42] ▶
Nick Redfern. Yeah, of course.
[4:10:42 - 4:10:43] ▶
But I don't know how real it is.
[4:10:43 - 4:10:45] ▶
Nick Redfern. Yeah. I, this is the problem with these groups. It's like,
[4:10:46 - 4:10:49] ▶
it's like trying to come up with, you know, do they have meetings and they have membership guards?
[4:10:51 - 4:10:54] ▶
I think it's, it's a question of people forming informal groups in Congress, in the military,
[4:10:54 - 4:11:02] ▶
in intelligence to put a religious spin on this and to, to promote a religious agenda at the expense
[4:11:02 - 4:11:11] ▶
of the scientific one. I was appalled a couple of years ago to hear how the Air Force Academy
[4:11:11 - 4:11:17] ▶
in Colorado was training, you know, their people in religious studies, right? And a very sort of narrow
[4:11:18 - 4:11:25] ▶
view of religious studies. They wanted people to understand that these are our enemies and these
[4:11:25 - 4:11:29] ▶
are the good guys and all the rest of it. And it was being taught by some really rabid sort of,
[4:11:29 - 4:11:33] ▶
um, rabid anti-Islamists for instance, or people like that. It's like, why are we doing this? Why
[4:11:33 - 4:11:39] ▶
are we trying to this? There's no room for this. It doesn't make any sense. Right. It's as if we're
[4:11:39 - 4:11:43] ▶
trying to set up the crusades. You know, it's like, why are we, why are we bothering to do this?
[4:11:43 - 4:11:48] ▶
Do you think that in the government there are any sort of formal groups concerned with eschatology?
[4:11:48 - 4:11:54] ▶
I don't think they're formal.
[4:11:54 - 4:11:56] ▶
And revelation or the apocalypse or anything like that.
[4:11:56 - 4:11:59] ▶
I don't think they're formal. I think there are, these are groups that come together and kind of
[4:11:59 - 4:12:02] ▶
break apart after a while because of differences of opinion on things. I think they had prayer
[4:12:03 - 4:12:08] ▶
breakfasts and that kind of thing. They get together and they talk about Doug Coe.
[4:12:08 - 4:12:11] ▶
So there's a whole story there, I suppose. But from my point of view, I don't think these groups are as,
[4:12:12 - 4:12:17] ▶
as, you know, hardwired as we like to think. I think they're just general attitudes and the
[4:12:18 - 4:12:22] ▶
general attitudes are kind of contagious sometimes. And people come on board and they say, yes, we can't
[4:12:22 - 4:12:27] ▶
talk about UFOs or like the famous event mentioned in John Alexander's book. Was it Ben Rich that he
[4:12:27 - 4:12:35] ▶
talked about? A guy at Lockheed? Yeah. I mean, Ben Rich said some remarkable stuff.
[4:12:35 - 4:12:39] ▶
No. Yeah. Ben Rich said something else. This was somebody else then. Ben Rich was kind of pro.
[4:12:39 - 4:12:44] ▶
This guy was con. And he said, no, we don't, you're not supposed to learn about this. This is what
[4:12:44 - 4:12:48] ▶
you learn about when you die. And this was a, this was a, an engineer in charge of technology.
[4:12:48 - 4:12:54] ▶
Right. And he was, says, we're not supposed to talk about this. He said this in front of
[4:12:54 - 4:12:57] ▶
John Alexander, I believe. This is what you learn when you die.
[4:12:57 - 4:13:00] ▶
But I, I struggle with this question because the Promethean myth doesn't end well. He ends with
[4:13:00 - 4:13:05] ▶
the, his liver getting pecked at right for eternity. And if you look at, you know, modern
[4:13:05 - 4:13:12] ▶
versions of Prometheus, you're the, even the story of Faust or whatever, usually blows up on the person
[4:13:12 - 4:13:17] ▶
going for the forbidden knowledge. And so I struggle with it because obviously per this show, I'm
[4:13:17 - 4:13:23] ▶
attracted to learning sort of offbeat knowledge and, you know, things that are, uh, you know, not,
[4:13:23 - 4:13:29] ▶
not well known by, you know, sort of conventional circles or whatever. But then there's
[4:13:29 - 4:13:33] ▶
a part of me where I'm like, is, is that sort of a treacherous, are you sort of signing up for,
[4:13:33 - 4:13:38] ▶
you know, something bad by, by, by doing that? I mean, you, you seem to like, you know, be in
[4:13:38 - 4:13:44] ▶
pretty good health and you've lived a good long life. And so, so, but, but like, how do you reconcile
[4:13:44 - 4:13:49] ▶
those two things? Cause I, I, you know, I interviewed, you know, this guy, Jason Reza Giorgiani.
[4:13:49 - 4:13:53] ▶
Yeah. Like he's a big fan of the Promethean, you know, and he calls himself a Satanist because he's
[4:13:53 - 4:13:59] ▶
on the side of the rebel angels or whatever. But I, I, I found him to be extremely intellectually
[4:13:59 - 4:14:05] ▶
generative, but I disagreed with him on the most fundamental stuff. Like I do believe in good and
[4:14:05 - 4:14:11] ▶
bad. And I do, I kind of believe in the Faust version of all of this stuff. So where does that
[4:14:11 - 4:14:17] ▶
leave us? Well, I, I, I watched some of the Giorgiani episode because I was, you know, I know about
[4:14:17 - 4:14:23] ▶
Giorgiani from before and I wondered what he was going to say in this context, you know, and he kind of
[4:14:23 - 4:14:27] ▶
lived up to my expectations. Um, I don't want to say anything negative about people you've had on,
[4:14:27 - 4:14:32] ▶
obviously, but I do disagree with, with Giorgiani's basic premises. I'm not a traditionalist.
[4:14:32 - 4:14:37] ▶
And I think that's where the, that's where the danger comes in. That's the back door to all of
[4:14:38 - 4:14:42] ▶
this is traditionalism and traditionalism is a thing. It's like a very concrete concept that there
[4:14:42 - 4:14:49] ▶
was a golden age that had all this information that knew everything, that life was so much better.
[4:14:49 - 4:14:55] ▶
And we have to get back to that golden age. We have to, cause this age sucks. Therefore,
[4:14:55 - 4:14:59] ▶
the golden age was better. And I think Giorgiani from everything I've heard and what he's read
[4:14:59 - 4:15:04] ▶
about what he's written, what he's talked about seems to me to be firmly in the traditionalist camp.
[4:15:04 - 4:15:09] ▶
I have a big problem with traditionalism. Like a lot of people are traditionalists in this field.
[4:15:12 - 4:15:15] ▶
René Guénon is a very famous, you know, a person who started all of this. And you have Julius
[4:15:15 - 4:15:20] ▶
Evola, who famously was a Nazi and remained so to the end of his days. You have a lot of these people
[4:15:20 - 4:15:26] ▶
I thought, was he a Nazi? He was a year fascist in Italy.
[4:15:26 - 4:15:31] ▶
He was very fascist.
[4:15:31 - 4:15:31] ▶
But then he was, I thought he was arrested by the Nazis. Then they were like,
[4:15:31 - 4:15:35] ▶
are you a fascist? And he said, I'm a super fascist.
[4:15:35 - 4:15:37] ▶
Or something like that.
[4:15:37 - 4:15:38] ▶
No, he stayed with the SS till the end of the war.
[4:15:38 - 4:15:40] ▶
He had access to their libraries and they let him have it.
[4:15:40 - 4:15:43] ▶
And so he did that. And then after the war, he was proud of his background with the SS.
[4:15:44 - 4:15:49] ▶
He talked about it. He was part of the underground sort of Hitler thing that was going on.
[4:15:49 - 4:15:53] ▶
Oh, I didn't know that.
[4:15:53 - 4:15:54] ▶
Yeah. But anyway, so this is traditionalism to me. This is like, we're going to go back to that golden
[4:15:54 - 4:15:59] ▶
age where everybody knew their place, you know? And my question always has been to the traditionalists,
[4:15:59 - 4:16:04] ▶
what happened then? If it was such a great golden age and you had all the answers, what happened? Why are we here now?
[4:16:04 - 4:16:10] ▶
Yeah. And there's no real answer for that. They blame again, other people.
[4:16:10 - 4:16:14] ▶
Well, it's often like Ganon and Evola would base their thinking off of Eastern thought actually in
[4:16:14 - 4:16:21] ▶
the Yuga periods and the Kali Yuga is the current period. And so you get this decline of, you know,
[4:16:21 - 4:16:27] ▶
Western civilization, but then what do you do about that?
[4:16:27 - 4:16:30] ▶
The prior Yugas, you would live to like, you know, a thousand years and, you know,
[4:16:30 - 4:16:34] ▶
So why are we talking about advanced technology?
[4:16:34 - 4:16:36] ▶
Do you see my point is, why are we talking, even talking about it? We have no control over the Kali Yuga,
[4:16:36 - 4:16:40] ▶
if that's in fact what's going on.
[4:16:40 - 4:16:41] ▶
Yeah. Well, he wrote a book, Evola called Ride the Tiger, which is like all, you know,
[4:16:41 - 4:16:45] ▶
you got to like ride modernity and like, I mean, the whole thing, it's like,
[4:16:45 - 4:16:48] ▶
there are all these logical fallacies in it, but it's very, you know, that's interesting.
[4:16:48 - 4:16:52] ▶
That's the problem. Right.
[4:16:52 - 4:16:53] ▶
That's when ideology gets involved and it gets really messy. But from my point of view,
[4:16:53 - 4:16:57] ▶
the traditionalists don't have an answer to that fundamental question.
[4:16:57 - 4:17:00] ▶
And not everybody would consider those ages golden ages. There are a lot of people who
[4:17:01 - 4:17:06] ▶
suffered under those regimes because these were regimes for elitists. These were elite regimes.
[4:17:06 - 4:17:11] ▶
They did well, right. When everybody else suffered. And so I don't want to go back to any of those golden
[4:17:11 - 4:17:17] ▶
ages. I think that the knowledge that they had, that we're always mooning about and saying how great
[4:17:17 - 4:17:22] ▶
it was, we already have it. It's all around us. We've got it in our hands. We don't know how to use it.
[4:17:22 - 4:17:27] ▶
We don't know how to look at it. You know, we're, we're too divided in so many different ways, you
[4:17:27 - 4:17:31] ▶
know, culturally, academically, linguistically, even politically, certainly all of these things
[4:17:31 - 4:17:36] ▶
are there to make everything very messy, but the knowledge is there. It's never gone away. It's,
[4:17:36 - 4:17:41] ▶
it's always been there. It's always been accessible. I don't want to go to a golden age. I want to go
[4:17:41 - 4:17:45] ▶
towards a golden age if possible. Right. I think that is possible, but I think it's going to take some
[4:17:45 - 4:17:50] ▶
work and it's going to take individuals coming to terms with the fact that all of these ideologies are not
[4:17:50 - 4:17:56] ▶
very useful. There is a new age possible, you know, because we see it in ourselves as individuals.
[4:17:56 - 4:18:03] ▶
We know we can make our individual understandings better, our individual lives better. It's just
[4:18:03 - 4:18:07] ▶
that guy next door who's a pain in the ass. Right. Totally. Well, you know that there's a
[4:18:07 - 4:18:11] ▶
Soren Kierkegaard quote that I think it's like, life is not a question to be answered, but a reality to
[4:18:11 - 4:18:17] ▶
be experienced. Right. And I feel like maybe the hubris of UFO quote unquote research or esoteric research.
[4:18:17 - 4:18:23] ▶
Yeah. Is that it is a question to be answered. Right. You're looking for some Archimedean point
[4:18:23 - 4:18:28] ▶
of revelation. It suddenly will know. You see the Ark of the Covenant and boom,
[4:18:29 - 4:18:32] ▶
you have all knowledge and it's inside your brain and you're, you're upgraded or whatever,
[4:18:32 - 4:18:37] ▶
and you have this, the special power. And that just, uh, I don't know, that seems like a sort of
[4:18:37 - 4:18:43] ▶
fallacy. Like it's, you think it is. It is a fallacy. Okay. I think we are in the process. We're
[4:18:43 - 4:18:49] ▶
in a constant process of discovery. Right. There is no one discovery to be made that's
[4:18:49 - 4:18:53] ▶
going to settle everything. So then what is the role of curiosity? Like if, if both you and I are
[4:18:53 - 4:18:59] ▶
taking these sort of quests where we're trying to find like all this, like interesting offbeat
[4:18:59 - 4:19:03] ▶
knowledge or whatever, I find it interesting. Like some, some UFO researchers, they'll just like,
[4:19:03 - 4:19:08] ▶
like there's this guy, Scott Crane, who met with this guy, Eric Walker, who we thought was in
[4:19:08 - 4:19:13] ▶
the majestic 12. Right. And Scott Crane had this, he just converted to Christianity, became hardcore
[4:19:13 - 4:19:19] ▶
Christian and like forgot about the whole thing. Right. And so do you think UFO research is, is like
[4:19:19 - 4:19:25] ▶
this like quixotic circuitous thing? And then you, and then you learn the truth and you're like,
[4:19:25 - 4:19:31] ▶
cause you're looking for confirmation of God. It's like a Gnostic quest where you're like poking the bear
[4:19:31 - 4:19:35] ▶
as much as you can to get like God to show himself to you or something. And then, but then once,
[4:19:35 - 4:19:40] ▶
once that happens, then you just end up like, you know, wanting to tend to, tend to your garden and
[4:19:40 - 4:19:45] ▶
be, be nice to your neighbor. Yeah. Well,
[4:19:45 - 4:19:48] ▶
yeah, the UFO field and the UFO phenomenon, as I've come to know it, uh, the last, you know, 10,
[4:19:51 - 4:19:57] ▶
15 years or so, they haven't yet defined what it is they're looking for. They don't know. Right.
[4:19:57 - 4:20:05] ▶
So when you talk to a ufologist, there's the general breakdown between the nuts and bolts guys
[4:20:05 - 4:20:11] ▶
and the consciousness guys, let's call them for a better word, but that's not even it. Right. You
[4:20:12 - 4:20:18] ▶
take the nuts and bolts guys and you push them a little bit and they don't know what they're
[4:20:18 - 4:20:21] ▶
looking for. I mean, we had, um, uh, one of them working for us at, at to the stars, right? Yeah.
[4:20:21 - 4:20:28] ▶
Steve justice. Right. Yeah. And here is a guy who would know where the bodies are buried. Right. Yeah.
[4:20:28 - 4:20:32] ▶
And, um, he didn't know. He, he really wanted to know how those saucers flew. Wow. That's what he
[4:20:32 - 4:20:38] ▶
told me. Yeah. He says, I want to know how they do it. But is he simultaneously saying we have the
[4:20:38 - 4:20:42] ▶
saucers in our possession? No, he's not saying that. Interesting. Right. He says, but I want to know
[4:20:42 - 4:20:47] ▶
how they do it. And then you guys had some material as part of to the stars academy as well. Yeah. Do you,
[4:20:47 - 4:20:52] ▶
so where, where do you think that material came from? Yeah. Well, that's, there's a long history
[4:20:52 - 4:20:56] ▶
behind it and long history in front of it on the other side. At this point, I don't know what's going
[4:20:56 - 4:21:00] ▶
on. We know that we were getting close to something. We were developing relationships
[4:21:00 - 4:21:04] ▶
with the military, with their laboratories to do the kind of testing only they could do. And then
[4:21:04 - 4:21:09] ▶
COVID hit when COVID hit all the relationship with the military really stopped. They apologized. They
[4:21:09 - 4:21:15] ▶
said nothing else we can do. We're being told we're going to cut this down, cut this down, cut this down.
[4:21:15 - 4:21:19] ▶
So they cut down almost everything they were going to do with us. I think maybe everything
[4:21:19 - 4:21:23] ▶
that they were doing with us at that point. After that, I don't, I lost track of the, of the trail
[4:21:23 - 4:21:28] ▶
of where that was going, you know? Um, but that's, that's something that fell out in the desert
[4:21:28 - 4:21:32] ▶
somewhere out in the West. I think, I think that, I think it originally went through Art Bell maybe,
[4:21:32 - 4:21:37] ▶
or something, or somebody gave it to him. Yeah. Arts parts. Yeah. Arts parts, maybe something like that.
[4:21:37 - 4:21:42] ▶
And it wound its way eventually to Tom. Did you touch the material? No, I didn't touch it myself.
[4:21:42 - 4:21:47] ▶
Okay. Do you see it at all or no? Okay. It's so fascinating. And then you have a really
[4:21:47 - 4:21:53] ▶
interesting connection with Bob Lazar, which is you worked at the same company that he did.
[4:21:53 - 4:21:58] ▶
Yeah. Very remote connection, but it was there. I happened to meet Bob Lazar for the first time
[4:21:58 - 4:22:03] ▶
when we started this whole project and George Knapp and together, and everybody has all these theories
[4:22:03 - 4:22:08] ▶
about Lazar, you know? Uh, I found the questioning by Knapp of Lazar was very artful and Lazar was just stuck
[4:22:08 - 4:22:15] ▶
to his story. I mean, if this was a cop show, you'd think he was telling the truth. You know what I
[4:22:15 - 4:22:20] ▶
So I guess you have to be a very good interrogator to know if he was telling the truth or not.
[4:22:20 - 4:22:24] ▶
What does your gut say on Lazar? On Lazar?
[4:22:24 - 4:22:26] ▶
I saw the original broadcast when it happened with George Knapp and Bob Lazar at Area 50, about Area 51.
[4:22:28 - 4:22:34] ▶
Yeah. But no one knew what that meant.
[4:22:34 - 4:22:35] ▶
And I'm watching this thing and I'm transfixed by this. I mean, that's indelible to me,
[4:22:36 - 4:22:41] ▶
that one moment when that happened. And Area 51 obviously was real. There's no doubt about that.
[4:22:41 - 4:22:49] ▶
And Lazar, the thing that makes me kind of believe Lazar is something kind of personal to me. And that
[4:22:49 - 4:22:56] ▶
is at one point his badge showed Bendix, Field Engineering Division. And that like blew my brain
[4:22:56 - 4:23:03] ▶
away because I worked for Bendix. I worked for the Bendix Corporation in the 1970s, almost
[4:23:03 - 4:23:09] ▶
six, seven years in the 1970s until I think 79 or 1980. So for a long time, I worked for their
[4:23:09 - 4:23:18] ▶
International Division. And the International Division was located in Manhattan on Broadway,
[4:23:18 - 4:23:23] ▶
of all places, on the 13th floor of an office building, which is really weird because they
[4:23:23 - 4:23:27] ▶
don't have 13 floors, but ours did. And so we're on floor 13. And the Field Engineering Division was
[4:23:27 - 4:23:34] ▶
legendary to us because number one, they had very good field engineers, but number two, the real reason
[4:23:34 - 4:23:41] ▶
is they were a front. When CIA or somebody wanted to send somebody abroad under a cover as a NOC,
[4:23:41 - 4:23:48] ▶
you know, non-official cover, they would use Bendix Field Engineering Services. That was perfect because
[4:23:48 - 4:23:54] ▶
you're an engineer. It could be anything. And so you have an engineering, you know, cover, and then you're
[4:23:54 - 4:23:59] ▶
going there as that cover. When Watergate happened, I was working for Bendix at the time, and our whole
[4:23:59 - 4:24:07] ▶
division went absolutely nuts because of all the stuff we had on paper. So suddenly the shredders
[4:24:07 - 4:24:13] ▶
are operating over time, right? And a lot of it had to do with the Field Engineering Services,
[4:24:13 - 4:24:17] ▶
because it came out that we were training troops in Saudi Arabia. What the hell was Bendix Field
[4:24:17 - 4:24:22] ▶
Engineering doing? Training troops in Saudi Arabia? Crazy. Wait, but you weren't involved in any of the
[4:24:22 - 4:24:27] ▶
intelligence activities? No, no, no. I was just some, I was just a guy working there, right? Okay.
[4:24:27 - 4:24:30] ▶
Okay. But I, my ears and eyes are open, right? Yeah. And so all of this is going on. So
[4:24:30 - 4:24:35] ▶
Field Engineering for us was, was the red flag. We knew what that meant. And then when I saw Lazar's
[4:24:35 - 4:24:40] ▶
ID, briefly in one book, there was a photo, there was a copy of it. And I saw it and I said, holy
[4:24:40 - 4:24:45] ▶
shit, Lazar worked for Bendix Field Engineering? That was his cover then. He didn't really work for them.
[4:24:45 - 4:24:50] ▶
Mm. This was a cover. If it was a cover, he was there for some other reason. Oh, so do you think he was
[4:24:50 - 4:24:55] ▶
Intel or something before he was, what, what years were this? That Lazar was? Yeah. This was after me.
[4:24:55 - 4:25:03] ▶
So I don't know. I think the, I think the broadcast with Knapp was after me. I don't know if he was at,
[4:25:03 - 4:25:10] ▶
I don't know if he was Area 51 while I was at Bendix or not. I left Bendix in 79, I think. So I don't
[4:25:10 - 4:25:17] ▶
know if he was at Bendix or if he had that ID in the eighties. If he did that after. It must have been
[4:25:17 - 4:25:22] ▶
before his Area 51 experience. Right. But that's a huge data point. If you're saying that
[4:25:22 - 4:25:29] ▶
being a field, a field engineering officer as part of Bendix is often.
[4:25:30 - 4:25:35] ▶
Right. Often. Not always. Associated with intelligence. Right. And he was in that group
[4:25:35 - 4:25:40] ▶
before working for Area 51, ostensibly, right? Because you don't blow the whistle on Area 51 and
[4:25:40 - 4:25:45] ▶
then get a job in the field engineering. No. No.
[4:25:45 - 4:25:48] ▶
So that's pretty interesting as a data point. Yeah. Wow. But that's all it is at this point.
[4:25:48 - 4:25:53] ▶
You know, you have to kind of figure out what does that mean? But for me. But to you,
[4:25:53 - 4:25:56] ▶
that lent credibility to his. That lent credibility to Lazar. If only because I knew there was more going
[4:25:56 - 4:26:01] ▶
on than, you know, they were saying. Sure. You know, so if Lazar is not mentioning, he didn't,
[4:26:01 - 4:26:07] ▶
he might've been under an NDA. It might've been a security thing for him not to mention Bendix. But then
[4:26:07 - 4:26:12] ▶
again, maybe it was just a fluke. Maybe he really, you know, had that tag for some legitimate reason
[4:26:12 - 4:26:19] ▶
that I, as my lowly position at Bendix would never have known, you know, but I just know that during
[4:26:19 - 4:26:25] ▶
Watergate, it was an issue. Field engineering, especially was an issue. And Bendix had people
[4:26:25 - 4:26:30] ▶
all over the world in other positions, not having to do with field engineering, that got the traction of
[4:26:30 - 4:26:35] ▶
local governments that didn't like them. We had a guy, we lost a guy in Uruguay, was captured by the
[4:26:35 - 4:26:41] ▶
Tupamaros, right out of his office. And I believe he was killed. So Bendix was always on the radar of
[4:26:41 - 4:26:48] ▶
governments overseas that saw Bendix as the long arm of the U.S. government, because we had a lot of
[4:26:49 - 4:26:55] ▶
defense contracts. Well, if you shake out pro on the Lazar story, then all of a sudden that allows
[4:26:55 - 4:27:01] ▶
for saucers and hangers, physical material, not only physical material, actual crafts and the possession of
[4:27:01 - 4:27:06] ▶
the United States military. I mean, Hal Puthoff also went on Joe Rogan a few months ago and said,
[4:27:06 - 4:27:12] ▶
we have 15 crash craft in our possession. Like he's literally gave like a number.
[4:27:12 - 4:27:17] ▶
It's just, it's interesting. The thing is that, you know, I don't know how well.
[4:27:18 - 4:27:21] ▶
Yeah. We've exchanged emails. And of course he was part of to the stars and I met him here,
[4:27:21 - 4:27:26] ▶
but I've covered how for a long time. He doesn't say stuff like that.
[4:27:28 - 4:27:32] ▶
So why did he say it on Rogan? The reason I think he said it is either it's actually true.
[4:27:32 - 4:27:39] ▶
Yeah. Because Hal never exaggerated anything as far as I am. He was very cautious kind of guy,
[4:27:39 - 4:27:45] ▶
almost to the point where you wanted to shake him and say, tell me really. But he would be very
[4:27:46 - 4:27:50] ▶
cautious about things, but he would deal in really weird science, right? Really weird stuff.
[4:27:50 - 4:27:55] ▶
Really weird science. So when he comes out and says something like that, Hal, of all people, Hal said it.
[4:27:55 - 4:28:01] ▶
Then I sit back and say, holy shit. Yeah. And I saw that and I said to myself,
[4:28:02 - 4:28:07] ▶
wow, Hal is saying this. He's, what is he saying? Yeah. He's extremely interesting. He's told me
[4:28:07 - 4:28:13] ▶
that like, he, he finds that synchronicities kind of lead his, you know, innovation that like, he, he
[4:28:14 - 4:28:20] ▶
kind of follows the signs and then like, he'll find, you know, all sorts of interesting insights
[4:28:20 - 4:28:25] ▶
around, around that, just like, you know, chasing things down, which is again, the common thread
[4:28:25 - 4:28:31] ▶
going back to the top about reality being sort of orchestrated on a higher level or whatever,
[4:28:31 - 4:28:36] ▶
just, you know, but it's, I think it, the UFO thing feels like a even like more concentrated
[4:28:36 - 4:28:43] ▶
version of that somehow. I think the UFO thing is our, the big piece of evidence that leads us
[4:28:43 - 4:28:49] ▶
into all these directions. I think the UFO phenomenon is there for that reason. You know,
[4:28:49 - 4:28:53] ▶
it's there to say, look, open your freaking eyes and look, right? Maybe it's a ghost. Maybe I'm a ghost,
[4:28:53 - 4:29:00] ▶
right? Maybe I'm a demon. Maybe I'm an angel. Maybe I'm an alien. I'm something, but I'm something.
[4:29:00 - 4:29:05] ▶
I'm there. I'm having an interaction with you. What does that mean? That's why we, we, at, uh, in the,
[4:29:05 - 4:29:11] ▶
to the stars books in secret machines, we kind of emphasize this aspect is that open your eyes and
[4:29:11 - 4:29:16] ▶
look, this would mean something. The consciousness aspect people say, well, is that really the most
[4:29:16 - 4:29:20] ▶
important part? It's the only part. It's how we're reacting to this. Our entire society now is reacting
[4:29:20 - 4:29:26] ▶
to this information in a certain way. People are saying, no, it's crazy. No, it's nonsense.
[4:29:26 - 4:29:30] ▶
People are saying it's angels, it's demons, it's space aliens. It's from another dimension, whatever.
[4:29:30 - 4:29:35] ▶
We're, we're, we're throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks, but it's something there.
[4:29:35 - 4:29:39] ▶
There's a wall there and it's inviting us to throw stuff at it. What is that wall? You know?
[4:29:39 - 4:29:44] ▶
And if we only talk to ourselves, we're never going to get there. We've got to talk to that
[4:29:44 - 4:29:49] ▶
shaman on the Orinoco river to find out what that is too. We've got to talk to everybody because the
[4:29:49 - 4:29:54] ▶
input is important. The language is important. They're using different words to describe these
[4:29:54 - 4:29:58] ▶
things, right? They're using different words to describe what they saw in Brazil. They're using
[4:29:58 - 4:30:03] ▶
different concepts. The ones, what they saw in, in, at the aerial and in Africa, right? The kids are seeing
[4:30:03 - 4:30:09] ▶
things and even the kids, their stories don't match all the time, right? They're seeing little things,
[4:30:09 - 4:30:14] ▶
big things. They're talking about different sizes and shapes. That's data. That's not, we don't
[4:30:14 - 4:30:19] ▶
discard that while they're just kids. It's data because it matches the data that adults are seeing
[4:30:19 - 4:30:24] ▶
all the time, right? If you had to extend a message to a young person watching this or listening to this
[4:30:24 - 4:30:31] ▶
right now and they're hearing this and their brain is, you know, being sort of scrambled by,
[4:30:31 - 4:30:37] ▶
you know, the, the, the, the, like, yeah, history is not what you think. You know,
[4:30:37 - 4:30:41] ▶
that there's all of these interesting facts around the JFK assassination, government and their knowledge
[4:30:41 - 4:30:46] ▶
of UFOs, uh, you know, um, uh, forbidden texts, you know, all, everything we've just discussed.
[4:30:46 - 4:30:52] ▶
Yeah. How, how would you advise they kind of incorporate or integrate some of these things
[4:30:52 - 4:30:58] ▶
into their, into their worldview and kind of a, you know, a productive way, a healthy way?
[4:30:58 - 4:31:03] ▶
Number one, I'd look for what you can prove. And that starts from the basic things like, did so-and-so
[4:31:03 - 4:31:10] ▶
really say that, right? So you find where that person said that. And I know in this stage, day and
[4:31:10 - 4:31:15] ▶
age of artificial intelligence, it's becoming harder and harder, but you can look at documents,
[4:31:15 - 4:31:18] ▶
look at the stuff that's released. That's open source. That's already there. Um, Harry Reed was
[4:31:18 - 4:31:25] ▶
once asked by a journalist, uh, you know, what do you, what do you recommend? How do we start this study
[4:31:25 - 4:31:30] ▶
of the, of the UFO? What do we begin? And Harry Reed says, what are you talking about? It's already there.
[4:31:30 - 4:31:35] ▶
It's there. Every, all the information is there. You've got it already. It's already in print.
[4:31:35 - 4:31:40] ▶
All you have to do is read it. All you have to do is look, the information is there already.
[4:31:40 - 4:31:43] ▶
Yeah. We're just, we have so many biases in our brains that we're blocking certain
[4:31:43 - 4:31:48] ▶
information from being understood. So look at everything, right? Look at the, look at the sane
[4:31:48 - 4:31:53] ▶
stuff, right? First, look at the documents, look at the stuff that's released by FBI or CIA or the
[4:31:53 - 4:31:58] ▶
Defense Department. You can sort of start from there because everybody's going to kind of agree
[4:31:58 - 4:32:02] ▶
agree on the facts that this letter was written by this guy at this time. That's, you can kind of base
[4:32:02 - 4:32:08] ▶
the beginning on. And then you go from there, right? Somebody says something, somebody interprets
[4:32:09 - 4:32:14] ▶
this document a certain way. Can they be trusted? Is their interpretation sound? Does it make sense?
[4:32:14 - 4:32:20] ▶
Always start from the, does it make sense part? Because you're going to lose that pretty early,
[4:32:20 - 4:32:23] ▶
pretty early on. But in the beginning, at least things will start to make sense or they will seem to
[4:32:23 - 4:32:27] ▶
make sense. And then soon they'll start not to make sense anymore. When they start not to make sense,
[4:32:27 - 4:32:32] ▶
when you start to hear contradictory things coming from different places, it's really good to
[4:32:32 - 4:32:37] ▶
maintain a sense of humor about it. Don't take it too seriously. Don't take the, the, the completely
[4:32:37 - 4:32:44] ▶
combating positions, the, the positions at, at opposite ends, don't take it as, um, written in stone.
[4:32:44 - 4:32:53] ▶
These are also malleable positions. They can be changed, right? The person expressing them so vehemently
[4:32:54 - 4:33:00] ▶
today may give up and say, tomorrow I was wrong. It's possible. So don't put too much worth,
[4:33:00 - 4:33:05] ▶
emphasis on it, but read it, understand it, listen to it, try to figure out, do any of these points of
[4:33:06 - 4:33:12] ▶
view make sense? Or do I need to take two of these and three of those? Right? Do I need to put them
[4:33:12 - 4:33:16] ▶
together in a different way to get at the truth? Don't invest, I would say, your soul into this so much
[4:33:16 - 4:33:22] ▶
at first, right? You're going to be really attracted on a soul basis. It's going to be
[4:33:22 - 4:33:27] ▶
fascinating. It's emotionally attractive because it's talking about weird stuff. And there's a lot
[4:33:27 - 4:33:32] ▶
of movies out, you know, that really harp on all of this and sort of expand on these possibilities.
[4:33:32 - 4:33:38] ▶
They're all kind of valuable. They're entertaining. They're not telling you the truth necessarily,
[4:33:38 - 4:33:42] ▶
not the way you think they are. They could be telling you the truth in a different way. It needs
[4:33:43 - 4:33:47] ▶
analysis. If you're a film school student, you know what I'm talking about, right? You'll watch
[4:33:47 - 4:33:52] ▶
a film and you'll sort of break it down and D you know, uh, I was going to say deconstruct it,
[4:33:52 - 4:33:57] ▶
but I don't know if that's popular anymore, but you're going to take it apart in pieces.
[4:33:57 - 4:34:00] ▶
You're going to look at it and say, what did, what was really being said here, right? What's,
[4:34:00 - 4:34:04] ▶
what's happening over there. It doesn't mean you have to look at David Lynch for 24 hours a day.
[4:34:04 - 4:34:08] ▶
I feel for you. I do that. Okay. Look what it's done to me, but that's, and that's an obvious way to
[4:34:08 - 4:34:14] ▶
Lynch has something to say about all of this very much. So Lynch is an open door to a lot of what's
[4:34:14 - 4:34:20] ▶
going on in this community. It's just, he never really went out so much and said that, but his
[4:34:20 - 4:34:24] ▶
brute was transcendental meditation, right? TM formed his way of approaching this and look what he came
[4:34:24 - 4:34:30] ▶
up with. So there's a reason there's a way you might want to copy, you know, something like that,
[4:34:30 - 4:34:37] ▶
something relatively benign, such as transcendental meditation or something like that to give yourself
[4:34:37 - 4:34:42] ▶
a kind of grounding in this, because what's going to happen? You're going to become intellectually
[4:34:42 - 4:34:46] ▶
infatuated by a subject, but your emotions will be a mess and your spiritual self, let's call it,
[4:34:46 - 4:34:54] ▶
is left holding the bag. What you have to do is kind of integrate these things because when you step
[4:34:54 - 4:34:59] ▶
back from a subject, when you sleep on it, revelations happen. When you step away from it for a while,
[4:34:59 - 4:35:05] ▶
you go take a walk and that walk could be for a couple of hours or a couple of years. You come back to it
[4:35:05 - 4:35:11] ▶
later. Suddenly you see it in a whole new light. You have more information. You have more things to
[4:35:11 - 4:35:15] ▶
bring to the table because now you have human experience as well. You have your experience with
[4:35:15 - 4:35:20] ▶
the world and now you can look at things a bit more clearly with a bit more nuance and try to
[4:35:20 - 4:35:26] ▶
deconstruct a situation that way. I found that's helped me a lot. It's helped me in dealing with
[4:35:26 - 4:35:30] ▶
people because people lie to you all the time, right? And they do it sometimes unconsciously. They do
[4:35:30 - 4:35:35] ▶
it without knowing they're lying. They're telling you untruths that they think are truths,
[4:35:35 - 4:35:38] ▶
but because they're so believable, you believe them. And that's also a problem. You know,
[4:35:38 - 4:35:44] ▶
is there truth really truth? I know it's getting really philosophical at this point.
[4:35:44 - 4:35:49] ▶
No, it's great. We're losing our, our way here.
[4:35:49 - 4:35:52] ▶
Well, I'll give you my, my final, final question, which is no. And that was all really sage advice
[4:35:52 - 4:35:58] ▶
and well said in my opinion and, and things I grapple with, you know, being, being in the topic where I'm
[4:35:58 - 4:36:03] ▶
still incorporating stuff that I'm like, I don't know if this is true. This is, you know,
[4:36:03 - 4:36:07] ▶
things mess with your mind all the time. But, um, what about somebody contemplating getting into
[4:36:07 - 4:36:13] ▶
some of these celestial ascent practices that you write about? Like, um, you know,
[4:36:14 - 4:36:19] ▶
if you're interested in Merkava or, or Kabbalah and you hear that, like, you know, it's not something
[4:36:19 - 4:36:25] ▶
that you should necessarily seek out. It should seek you. So, but maybe you're starting to get signs
[4:36:25 - 4:36:30] ▶
that like, you know, this is something that is for you. What, what do you, what do you do at that
[4:36:30 - 4:36:35] ▶
point? Well, there's a couple of things. It depends on your own background. Like, um, for instance,
[4:36:35 - 4:36:40] ▶
if you come from a very, I would say a very, not strict necessarily, but a conventional Jewish
[4:36:40 - 4:36:46] ▶
background, Merkava mysticism is one of those systems, right? It may, you may find it culturally
[4:36:46 - 4:36:52] ▶
easier to understand. Um, although the strictures against you doing it by Jewish authorities is very
[4:36:52 - 4:36:58] ▶
strong, no one will recommend it to you. No rabbi will say, Hey, you should try celestial ascent,
[4:36:58 - 4:37:04] ▶
try Merkava, you know, stuff. No, they're not going to tell you that. So you have to be
[4:37:04 - 4:37:07] ▶
understand that that's going to be a problem, but you may find that some of the technology,
[4:37:07 - 4:37:10] ▶
some of the wording, some of the ideas are more compatible, right? That's just a cultural thing.
[4:37:10 - 4:37:16] ▶
Um, if you're Chinese, obviously there's Shang-Qing Taoism. The texts are available,
[4:37:16 - 4:37:20] ▶
uh, in Chinese and, and in English as well. Many of them, uh, for what, for what they are worth for
[4:37:20 - 4:37:26] ▶
you. Um, but there's not many teachers left. There are a few, uh, mostly on Taiwan. Uh, there's a lot
[4:37:26 - 4:37:32] ▶
of Taiwan, um, pace of you things going on the, the, the steps, the famous, uh, meditation steps that
[4:37:32 - 4:37:38] ▶
they use to bring them into that state of consciousness. Uh, you'll find that being practiced in some of the
[4:37:38 - 4:37:43] ▶
Daoist temples there, not so much in China itself, although the Daoist monasteries are still there,
[4:37:43 - 4:37:48] ▶
but that's like broad cultural things. So if you're just like the average person
[4:37:49 - 4:37:52] ▶
with no particular cultural baggage, how would you start it? Very different meditation practices.
[4:37:52 - 4:37:58] ▶
There's, you know, yogic practices that could lead in that direction. Um, the problem is you're going to
[4:37:59 - 4:38:05] ▶
be involving yourself with teachers, with gurus, with people who might make things as difficult as
[4:38:05 - 4:38:11] ▶
possible for you to get to that point. Right. That's their job in some cases. In some cases,
[4:38:11 - 4:38:16] ▶
that's just what they like to do. That's fun. And so to make things difficult for you, that's sort of
[4:38:16 - 4:38:20] ▶
their amusement because you know, they're old guys, they're celibate, they don't drink. So what are
[4:38:20 - 4:38:25] ▶
they going to do? No cable. They're going to abuse you and make you go celestial ascend for 20 years
[4:38:25 - 4:38:30] ▶
before you get to the second level. So these things happen. This is life. When things don't smell
[4:38:30 - 4:38:36] ▶
right to you, walk away. When things, when your gut doesn't feel secure, walk away. There's a lot of
[4:38:36 - 4:38:41] ▶
people out there who are trying to take your money or trying to, uh, you know, abuse you in some way,
[4:38:42 - 4:38:47] ▶
abuse your trust. So you have to be careful of that. I think maybe the easiest way to go about all of
[4:38:47 - 4:38:53] ▶
this, if you're interested is to follow instructions that you'll find, for instance, in Stairway to Heaven.
[4:38:53 - 4:39:01] ▶
I mean, I, I don't really give detailed instructions for that. There are no real details for it. It's a
[4:39:01 - 4:39:07] ▶
question of following an instinct, right? Trying to attain one level, the very first level. That first
[4:39:07 - 4:39:14] ▶
step is the big one. If you can find a way to achieve that kind of ascent to the very first level,
[4:39:14 - 4:39:21] ▶
to the part where you know, not that you can think about it, not that you can brag about it, not that
[4:39:21 - 4:39:26] ▶
you've felt something really strange or really weird, but that you know you've gone to a level where
[4:39:26 - 4:39:31] ▶
suddenly everything seems right. Everything seems real, but everything is not real. That
[4:39:31 - 4:39:36] ▶
stand that, that place is that first step. Okay. It's a kind of a combination of what you think is
[4:39:36 - 4:39:43] ▶
real and what is really real meeting in between. That was beautiful. And that's step number one.
[4:39:43 - 4:39:50] ▶
When you've got step number one, the other steps will easily follow from there. You'll be able to
[4:39:50 - 4:39:54] ▶
follow it yourself. That's amazing. Well, Peter Lavenda, this has been a pleasure. I really appreciate it.
[4:39:54 - 4:40:00] ▶
I think you're super knowledgeable about all these disparate topics and you connect them in a very
[4:40:00 - 4:40:06] ▶
unique way. And so I'm grateful to do this with you. You've also led just a fascinating life that,
[4:40:06 - 4:40:11] ▶
stranger than fiction, to be honest. And so thank you for being here.
[4:40:12 - 4:40:15] ▶
Thank you for inviting me. It was a great conversation. The longest I think I've had.
[4:40:15 - 4:40:19] ▶
That's awesome. Cool.
[4:40:19 - 4:40:21] ▶
And thanks to Lincoln for bringing this together as well.
[4:40:21 - 4:40:24] ▶
Thank you to Lincoln Miller for setting this all up. Sweet.
[4:40:24 - 4:40:27] ▶
Alchemist, did you enjoy that? Well, here's the thing. That episode was just the tip of the iceberg.
[4:40:29 - 4:40:35] ▶
If you want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy magazine we just launched on
[4:40:35 - 4:40:41] ▶
Substack. That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into
[4:40:41 - 4:40:47] ▶
every video with weekly articles exploring all of the strange forgotten and conspiratorial corners of
[4:40:47 - 4:40:53] ▶
space, history, and high weirdness. So join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am
[4:40:53 - 4:41:00] ▶
including the full link in the description of this video.
[4:41:00 - 4:41:14] ▶