931 segments
Paralleling that push of the Clinton administration, Rockefeller was also funding this guy who
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was at Harvard psychiatrist by the name of Dr. John Mack.
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And he was funding him and he was funding all these other UFO researchers, but really
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So John Mack, the guy you were talking about, right?
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So John Mack with the funding of Lawrence Rockefeller was flew down to Africa with a
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camera crew and documented, I think it was roughly 66 out of the 100 school children
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that were on the field that day, broad daylight, it was like 10 o'clock in the morning,
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1994, September, 1994.
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And I find the testimony of the children so compelling because it's one after the other.
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And they're all talking about these big, big, black, almond-shaped eyes and the telepathy.
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And that was the thing.
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And it was also, you know, as I listened to the testimony of these children, I was so moved
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All these kids saying the same thing.
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Of course, some of them saw the craft over here, some of them saw it over there and they
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saw red lights and blue lights and green lights, all metallic, bright shiny object.
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And it was almost like you got the impression that whatever it was they were looking at
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was in between dimensions because it could appear here and up here over there.
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This is one thing that I didn't share.
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It's certainly not in the movie.
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But according to the children, these beings that were roughly the size of them were as
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curious about the children as the children were of them.
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And they were mimicking the children's behavior on the playground.
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They were almost like, because the children would get to these in Africa and in Zimbabwe,
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I was told that if the grasses and stuff weren't maintained in mode, there were dangerous
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snakes and spiders and things of that nature out there.
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So the children were not allowed to go beyond these big telephone poles that were defined
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the perimeter of the playground.
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But being children, they would go all the way out to these poles and they would skip and
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Knowing that if they went two inches to the right, they would be out of bounds.
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What they weren't allowed to do, they get in trouble for.
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So they would skip along these poles.
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And the children told me as adults that these little creatures were mimicking their skipping
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behavior in a very benign fashion.
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Didn't you say something about they were like jumping on the logs with them too?
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They were skipping along.
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They were kind of floating along the logs according to the children very happily and non-threatening.
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But they were as curious of the children as the children were of them according to the
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eyewitness testimony.
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And it was the preponderance of eyewitness firsthand eyewitness testimony.
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I mean, you think about 100 school children in broad daylight all seeing something completely
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There's no terrestrial explanation to what those children saw.
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I'm trying to remember, did the kids, because you interspaced this with Dr. John Maxx interviews
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from back then when they were all children and then you brought some of these now adults
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back to discuss it and you did it on camera at the school.
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I remember in the documentary the adults described telepathy.
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I don't know if the kids used the word, but did they describe how the aliens were communicating
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with them in their mind?
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That they would see imagery.
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They were communicating telepathically with these children.
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And what were they saying to the children?
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They were depicting destruction of the planet.
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Technology was going to be our downfall.
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Things of that nature and all these children were saying.
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Not every child had the telepathic communication, but the ones that came face to face.
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Honestly, I don't know because I didn't talk to all those, but a lot of them.
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So, you have Dr. John Mackx.
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He had I think 66 children on camera, both in the playground and sat down interviews inside.
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And they all saw either the craft or the beans at a distance and they were a handful, because
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there were different groups of kids in different locations.
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I mean, they were just like, what the hell are we looking at here?
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And some of them had face-to-face contact.
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Like Selma, for instance, and I said to Selma and Lisa, well, how close were you to this
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She said, about a meter?
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Well, a meter is like three feet, right?
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So, that's like arms length.
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And it was the same sizes, then the same size as them, yeah.
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Which is how these are often described in all these.
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Really funny because they interview this one kid and it's on the archival footage and
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the person asking, so I was like, wow, exactly how big was this bean or whatever you call
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and the kid goes, about my size.
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And they talked about it so matter of factly.
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And there's no bias with children at that level.
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They're not saying like, we saw aliens from Alpha Centauri or, you know, it's like, here's
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what we saw, we all saw it.
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And you know, and the other thing is that they felt that the adults had let them down.
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Well, of course, the adults didn't have an explanation for what had happened.
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The school teacher, then school teacher, now she's the headmistress, Judy Bates, actually
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had her own experience with this thing.
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And she kept it quiet because she was in fear for her career, her reputation.
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I actually went to Africa and I met with her and she apologized.
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I said, I think you like to say to the children, she's like, I like to apologize.
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I was dealing with my own kind of experience.
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And she was concerned about a reputation in her career and her future and decided to just
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keep that quiet for 20 whatever plus years.
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And what year did you visit there again, like 2018?
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I went there in like 2017, 2018, something like that.
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So here's a little clip from I think this was Selma because I don't remember all their
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names, but not her right there.
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She's about to come on.
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This alleged encounter caught the attention of Pulitzer Prize winning Harvard psychiatrist,
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She had face to face, telepathic communication.
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So it's all a little scary about it.
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Alright, so she said I felt scared.
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Well, that's scary because I've never seen such a person like that before.
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And I saw this person and it had big eyes.
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That's what I saw about it.
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She lives in Australia now.
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Maybe they're trying to communicate with us, show us something which we don't know
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I think they want people to know that we're actually making harm on us.
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Well, we mustn't get too acknowledged.
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Okay, so that's what I want to leave it right there.
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Because here's a very, I think, central question around some of these UFOs.
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And we're skipping around a little bit today.
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We're going to get to a moment of contact very soon.
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I do want to take it there deliberately.
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But I want to stay with this for a second.
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In a lot of the UFO cases that maybe we'll get to later again in the phenomenon, there's
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the mention that these UFOs will appear at nuclear testing sites or nuclear bases where
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they have the actual weapons.
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And there's even reports that the weapons, a lot of reports where the weapons suddenly
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inexplicably become disabled when these things have appeared.
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And we've had military guys that you had in your documentary, even old guys who this
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was years ago, testify about this.
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There's been a ton of sightings in Russia that are of the same thing.
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And they keep showing up very often.
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Obviously, not in the cases in Bobway one, but they show up at the places that house
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the weapons that at least since World War II have been the most dangerous potential warning
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sign of us having the end of humanity if we started to hit that button.
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And you kind of wonder when they come and talk to these kids playfully in a way.
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And I can't put myself in their shoes.
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Who knows where the fuck they're from or what kind of time or theory of relativity they
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figured out, which is obviously far beyond us.
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But it almost seems like they're watching us like a god a little bit.
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If this is the case, to make sure we don't destroy ourselves.
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And then they come to innocent little children, playfully talk with them in a telepathic way
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where these kids, they're fucking eight years old, seven years old.
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And they're talking about how we're, this is in 1994 before the internet, how we're
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destroying the planet and doing all this shit to it.
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And that's the warning they give.
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And it's almost like that was a way for them to go communicate to the every man through
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the eyes of an innocent child, the things that they're trying to say by saying, don't
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hit that fucking button, idiot when they're standing at these nuclear bases or flying over
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these nuclear bases.
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So I interviewed a number of eyewitnesses regarding the, that aspect of the phenomenon.
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And that is they're seen over these particularly during the Cold War, the height of the Cold War.
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They are witnessed in, in Russia and all scattered across the United States.
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And this launch control officer Robert Salas, I'll never forget this.
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I think I included this in the film out of the blue I did.
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He said, you know, because he was so funny, it was like, I could tell why he was a launch
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control officer because he had these nerves of steel.
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He was just super calm, just measured, calm, collected, not the kind of guy that would,
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you know, and he goes, well, James, the message I got when they shut our nukes off, it's almost
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like they were taking matches out of the hands of a baby.
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So he said to me, I was like, wow, I think about that all the time.
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You know, it's like, yeah, maybe you shouldn't be playing with these.
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Yeah, that was the message he got.
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So it was really funny, you know, because that aspect of the phenomenon is just crazy,
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Because if these things are coming over, our most like guarded areas and shutting down
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our nukes, shutting them off, turning them on in some instances, but just to kind of let
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them know that they had full control.
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Wow, that's kind of intense.
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That's a, that's a kind of issue of national security.
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I don't know what is.
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I'd known about this, but I wasn't going to include it in the phenomenon.
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I just didn't want to go down that rat hole.
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Well, because when I got an interview with former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, we had
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an amazing interview.
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He was the one that started that A-Tip program that ultimately ended up at A-Tip, that
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secret Pentagon UFO program.
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Didn't that interview almost like not happen or something?
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Well, I'll tell you that in a second, because that's pretty damn funny.
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That's really funny.
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For some reason during the sit down interview, and there was a big moment for me in my career,
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like I have George Napp to thank for that.
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I said, we had a quick walk-in talk, and he had a very limited amount of time with me.
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I mean, it was like, you know, I'm going to be from here to here and then I'm out, and
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he had like security and all this stuff.
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And it was an important guy.
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And I said, hey, do you mind if I get a quick walk-in talk?
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He was like, he's like, okay, I think I got about a minute and a half.
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I was like, all right.
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So we're walking down this hallway.
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I told Dave, my DP, I said, don't worry about lighting everything.
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We just got to get this, you know, handheld, just walk-in talk.
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We got to, you know, better something than nothing.
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So I'm walking around, I might as well ask them a question.
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Didn't have any professional audio gear or anything, but I said, what was one of the more
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astonishing aspects of the phenomenon that you uncovered during this Pentagon UFO program?
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And without even pausing, he said the fact that they're flying over our nuclear installations
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and shutting them off.
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I thought, oh my God, did the former Senate Majority Leader just say that on camera to me?
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Wow, that's incredible.
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And that was something I just forgot to ask him about.
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I didn't think about asking him that question during our interview.
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Why do you think he did it?
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I mean, he had been around forever.
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It's such a risk for someone's reputation.
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He did that program all the way through the tail end of the Bush presidency, all the way
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through Obama's presidency, and then into Donald Trump's presidency before it came out.
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So that program was secret.
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And I wonder if Christopher Mellon and Lou Elisando and a handful of others behind the scene
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hadn't opted to do what they did.
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Find a loophole, retire, step down, Lou left in protest of the excessive secrecy.
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Lou Elisando, he ran the UFO desk.
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He ran that program, they ate it.
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And there's been controversy around Lou.
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I'm like, Lou was exactly who he says he was, and he did exactly what he said he did.
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I mean, I spoke to Senator Harry Reid about it.
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And I actually, you know, was there when Lou got the letter from Senator Harry Reid confirming
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Lou was ahead of that program.
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Lou stepped down in protest of excessive secrecy.
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They found a loophole and Christopher Mellon walked that evidence out of the Pentagon, the
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go fast, the tick-tax videos.
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Is that David Fravers?
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David, yeah, I was part of the Nimitz 2004, Nimitz, 200 miles off the coast of San Diego,
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And they were, David Fraver, his whizzo, I guess, was the guy in the backseat and then
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another pilot and his whizzo.
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So yeah, I think four pilots all in all.
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But in any case, he walked those tapes out on front pages of the New York Times.
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It's not because people go, why, you know, why are we experiencing more government transparency?
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Because a handful of insiders decided that there's too much secrecy around this.
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There's something truly inexplicably going on.
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There's very compelling evidence and the public has a right to know.
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So that's why, and now they can't put the genie back in the bottle, right?
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The intelligence people have been like, even Senator Reid said this to me on camera.
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He goes, when they found out I wanted to do a UFO program, even though it was hidden
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from the public, they were just putting the brakes on.
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No, we can't do this.
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No, no, he got so much resistance and he fought back and he made it happen.
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But it was still in secret.
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Obama didn't know about it, Bush didn't know about it and Trump didn't know about it.
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I mean, in some ways, like I know there's all kinds of like power-broken behind the scenes
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in DC, your position, like the Democratic leader of the Senate, like you've been there
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You were there before the president was there and everything.
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In some ways, I could see that, but still to have someone that high profile talk about
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And if I played like Cinnick Devils advocate for a second, if these things were the beginnings
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of all these crazy secrets that they possess, that now they're admitting like they do have
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secrets to the public, I wonder if there's almost something way bigger that could very
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well have to do with aliens that they're trying to divert attention away from by throwing
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us things and acting like, oh, wow.
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Yeah, no, this happened.
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Look at this fucking secret from 1955 we had.
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Yeah, we recovered that and people are like, holy shit, but they'd really be going, oh
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If they saw the real stuff that maybe they're not going to release, like I do wonder about
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They definitely have.
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We've only seen the tip of the iceberg.
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Oh, I know that, but I'm saying like they've talked about the icebergs there.
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What about the other iceberg over there?
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The one like the Titanic.
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Like what if that's a way bigger iceberg and they're like not trying to draw attention
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to it, they're trying to divert attention by getting carried in a stick in it to all
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Well, so this is something that I can give an example of obfuscation, okay, in my opinion.
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This is just my opinion.
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I'm not, nothing I'm stating is, well, the stories I'll tell you are factual in the sense
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that they're out there and they're pretty credible.
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I was investigating a landing case from 1964 in Sukoro, New Mexico from a police officer
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by the name of Lonnie Zamora who was on duty in a hot pursuit.
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Sukoro, New Mexico 1964 Lonnie Zamora, your audience can look it up.
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In the process of that investigation, it was a close encounter of the third kind.
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This was in the Peacock Project Blue Book five years before it got shut down.
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Can you tell people what project blue book is?
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So project blue book was Air Force investigations of UFOs from 1967 to 1969 when it was terminated.
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It started off as project, sorry project sign, the conclusions of sign were that we were
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being visited, that was scrapped, it went to grudge, and then it went to project blue
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It was a span from 47 to 69.
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In that investigation, during the investigations, there was a guy named Dr. J. Allen Heineck.
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An Allen Heineck classified UFOs into three categories.
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One close encounter of the first kind, someone sees the UFO.
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Close encounter of the second kind, they see the UFO and somehow the UFO interacts with
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the environment, whether it leaves burn marks on the ground or someone's face or picked
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up on radar, photographed, it interacts with the environment somehow.
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Close encounter of the third kind is when, and this was like the Air Force's own files,
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it's not coming from me, is when there are reports of entities, beings associated with
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So you have a UFO on the ground and you've got beings standing next to it.
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That was a case in 1964 with police officer Lonnie Zamora that I was investigating.
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It was a turning point for one of the debunkers, the loudest debunker, Dr. Heineck, who
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And that was one of the cases, apparently, that really swayed him because he found the
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credibility of the police officer so high.
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And there was physical evidence on the ground.
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And there were other people that saw the UFO and he got within 35, 40 feet of a landed
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egg-shaped object and you wonder when the tick-tax were invented.
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I don't know what year they were, with tick-tax around in 1964.
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Would Lonnie have described it as a tick-tax?
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It was a white egg-shaped, all the white egg-shaped craft with a landing gear.
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And that's what he saw with the people, right?
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There were two beings in white fitting like cover-all suits and they looked diminutive,
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like small child-like as the way he described them.
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I'll put that picture in the corner of the screen so people could see.
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And he had direct eye contact with us.
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So anyway, I'm investigating this case and I'm really sticking my teeth into it.
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I mean, I went to the National Archives.
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I found never before seeing archival stuff and drawings of the landing sites and photographs.
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And I'm finding archival footage.
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I befriended Lonnie's the more his wife, Mary.
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I became friends with her.
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I got her on camera for the first time ever.
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Because he's dead now.
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And forced to be missed him by a few years.
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That's a whole nother story.
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Oh, there's so many things I wanted to ask him about.
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He killed before you got to catch it.
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Well, there's, I don't want to go too far down this case, but there's a really good case
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and there's physical evidence to this case.
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And more than just landing imprints and footprints of the creatures and all this other stuff.
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But I'm investigating this case and I'm doing so over about a five-year span.
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I'm going back and forth to Sakura.
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It's like I said, I'm going to get it to know his wife.
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I got to know his daughter, Diane, and his son, Michael, and his friends, people that he
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worked with, got him all on camera.
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Some of them didn't end up in the film.
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I don't know why that happens.
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You think you get all this amazing stuff?
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There's only so much.
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Yeah, I don't know how you've been at all in.
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How do you squeeze it all in?
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It's like one case and among many other cases.
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Real quick, just side note.
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Have you ever seen the front line interview fire?
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I don't know if that's what they're called, but like the PBS front line interview files
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where they play the full interviews they had a separate content.
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That's a brilliant thing to do.
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I am sitting on terabyte upon terabyte of interviews.
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I probably have the biggest collection of UFO interviews on the planet.
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Well, you should do that.
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Because I've been doing this for 30 years, like in St.
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I have so many games.
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James, we're going to do that.
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I have so many things.
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I don't have the bandwidth to do all this.
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What I did do, here you go.
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What I did do, what I did do two years ago, right after I finished the phenomenon, I thought
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I got to get all my interviews and all my other hard drives and old hard drives.
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I got to put them all in one big fat drive.
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So I got two, I think 30, 35 terabyte drives, maybe 48 terabyte drives.
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I got a couple of them and I put everything on them.
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Every film I've ever made, interview with they're all there.
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And I got three back.
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I got one in Vermont, one in California, one in a storage.
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Don't tell people who this shit is.
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You're out of your mind.
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Boost the Montes, going to find in it right now.
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But no, it's a very good idea.
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I should definitely do that.
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But let me get back to this.
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Because this is interesting.
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This is really interesting.
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I come across, and this is when I'm investigating the landing case, the close encounter of
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I'm going to talk about a couple of other cross-sem articles by a woman named Keral Lorenzen
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at the UFO Chronicle or UFO post sheet did during the 50s and 60s.
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She was very prominent researcher, Keral Lorenzen.
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I'm trying to think of the, of the, or anyway, I'm reading this article.
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It was quite honestly.
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I thought it had something to do with the landing at, at Sakura with the officer, Lonizamura.
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And one of the aspects, the Air Force, and they were on the scene within one hour, Army
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and Air Force, they did not want Loniz to talk about the fact that he saw these creatures.
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Don't talk about that.
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It's one thing to see at an identified craft.
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It's an entirely different story when you're looking at some aliens, right?
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Or something that appears to be alien.
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Like, that's much more difficult to explain than an egg, okay?
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I see a lepacal saying, yeah!
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So, so they were really getting Lonnie to downplay that.
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So it was very difficult for me and Lonnie's dead to find, you know, the, the, the, the
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aspects of that encounter of the creatures.
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The media got there just before the, the military arrived.
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His name was Richard Holder and he was from White Sands.
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And he got there and I actually talked to his kids.
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He unfortunately deceased and they didn't make it in the film either dang it.
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But they told me that the father took plaster casts of the aliens footprints in the ground
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and the, and the, and the, the landing prints of the craft and they said it was in the middle
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with it in a royal in the middle of the desert and it was really heavy.
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Like they, they, there were no trucks.
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There were no tire tracks leading up to this site.
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So whatever it was came down and landed out of nowhere and left.
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And there were a couple of footprints exactly where Lonnie's the more the police officers
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saw these creatures and they were weird footprints.
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They were like, yeah, you had this in the film, the footprints, right?
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So I'm investigating this.
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I don't get to this other aspect in a second because this is pretty amazing.
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So I read this article by Carole Lorenzen, the UFO bulletin and talking about a landing
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and I was like, oh, cool.
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You know, I'm going to get some more details on Sikoro and it's talking about a landing
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in Holman Air Force Base, a landing that was also a close encounter of the third kind.
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However, this one might have been filmed by the military at White Sands.
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Now, Holman is a stone's throw from Sikoro.
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I mean, it's like, as the crow flies, I don't know, a few minutes, 30 miles.
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I mean, it's, it's close.
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Well, I'm absolutely convinced that the Sikoro case happened, but now I'm suddenly starting
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to hear about a landing at Holman.
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I don't exactly have a date.
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I think it might have been like a right around the same time, but I don't have a date,
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which would have been around 64.
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And I'm finding this reports from Carole Lorenzen from that time in 1964, pretty damn credible.
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I'm like, hmm, so then I find another article.
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And that leads me to, it was, it was testimony from people that were at the base at the time
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talking about the UFO flying saucer landing and the occupants get it out.
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Now I know this sounds extremely un, like, what's the word, I'm like, outlandish, untrue,
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too fantastic, whatever.
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But I'm leading it slowly.
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Then I, I find a film called UFO's past, present, and future.
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And it was done by two guys, Emma Nager and Alan Sandler in 1974.
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They probably started shooting in 1972, something like that, shooting.
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Now these guys had, you can go out and watch the film.
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These guys had unprecedented access, military access during their production.
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How did they get it?
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Well, they got it from a guy named Colonel Coleman at the Pentagon, but that's, I won't
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go too far down there, but they did, they just did.
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And in this production, they're working with Heinrich.
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They're working with, and Heinrich was with Project Blue Book, the United States Air Force.
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But he's, he's since left the Air Force.
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It was 72, something like that.
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He's working with Quintanella, who ran Blue Book.
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They're working with Robert Friend, who was also part of Project Blue Book.
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They're working with this guy, William T. Coleman, who was currently at the Pentagon.
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He was publicly his own officer for the Pentagon.
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And he was working, they were working with him at the time.
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Like, how did these guys get this level of cooperation in 1972?
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And I can tell every aspect of this production was carefully crafted.
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Every word in this film was carefully crafted because they kind of had to, because they
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were working with the military.
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Well, in this film, they talk about an incident at Holloman Air Force Base that maybe happened
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or could happen in the future, but it might have already happened.
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Could happen in the future.
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I watch the movie and I'm like, God, everything else is so factual.
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All the cases are so factual.
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Everything is like, you know, they cover it's a quarrel, they cover all these other cases
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that I've covered that I'm very familiar with.
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Man, there's something going on about this.
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So I contact Eminager.
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And I contact Alan Sandler, the guy that made the film.
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Eminager is super willing to go on the record and talk to me on camera and he's super excited.
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He's like, yeah, they had film footage of that landing at Holloman.
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Yes, they have film footage of a landing at Holloman.
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We almost got our hands on it.
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That's why we made the movie about an incident that may have happened already
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or maybe it's something that's going to happen in the near future, but it is not interesting.
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So Eminager is convinced that in the relevance of this story, we'll come out and I promise.
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Now, I just got to keep going.
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So Eminager is convinced that this film footage of a UFO landing at Holloman Air Force Base
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and the occupants getting out and interacting with the base commanders exists.
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I know that sounds nuts, believe me, I know that.
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But one of the producers of the films convinced it happened.
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I said, well, why are you so convinced?
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He said, because the guy at Paul Shartel, who is at North and Air Force Base,
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audio, audio, video department, I have a clip of him.
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I could show it, get it to you.
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Paul Shartel had the footage at North and Air Force Base and he was going to give it to us.
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And somehow the higher ups got involved and the footage vanished.
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So then I'm going to Alan.
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What's this about this footage and why is it not in your movie?
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He goes, oh yeah, I was showing that footage.
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I said, hold on a second.
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I'm driving my car and I'm on the phone with him.
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And I said, excuse me, hold on a second.
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He goes, yeah, no, I was showing that Paul Shartel showed me the footage.
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Well, Eminager, your partner who you produced this movie with doesn't even,
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he doesn't know that.
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Well, I was kind of told, you know, he was told what?
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I'll tell you what happened.
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So, and this is all parallel in this.
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The Sakura was only found out about this really because of the Sakura case that I was investigating.
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So, what you were looking at because of Zamora?
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Because of Lonnie Zamora.
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And it was a proximity to that and that time frame and proximity to the base in
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Sakura is very close.
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Holman, White Sands, blah, blah, blah.
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Now, they were testing missile sites and they were doing all kinds of activity that might
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have been of interest in White Sands.
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You know, I don't know how far away is from Trinity site.
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Excuse me, not that far.
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New Mexico was a hot spot.
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I'm going to put, by the way, just for people out there, I'm going to put a very,
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not like a Google Earth one, but a very basic map with like a pinpoint of these places.
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We're talking about in the corners.
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People can see for the visual.
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So, so I'm in a car.
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I'm talking to Alan and he tells me out of the blue that he saw
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and this is the guy that produced UFO's past, present, and future.
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He's got Jacques Flaill in the movie.
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He's got all these characters are all part of the government.
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I mean, I, something's up.
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I pull the car over and I did what I always do, what I want to really absorb a story.
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And that is I close my eyes and the reason why is because I want the words to create the imagery.
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I want to know exactly every detail of what he saw.
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So, pull the car over the side of the road, stop, turn the engine off.
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Had the speaker, I had my phone on speaker and I said, Alan, tell me exactly what you saw.
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There were three discs that were escorted by a military jet.
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Roughly ten, he wasn't sure the altitude, 10, 12,000 feet.
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It was a guesstimation.
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And this is what the film footage saw that he claims to have seen,
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that Paul Schardel at Norton Air Force Base in California on camera admitted that he had it in
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his possession. He'd seen it and that it was not of Earth origin in Paul Schardel's opinion.
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MNGer's opinion as well, but MNGer never saw it.
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Alan Sander did see it.
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Alan, he doesn't know what it was.
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He think it could have been some kind of potentially a stage of it, whatever.
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So, three discs flying in, okay.
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Two of them peel away, gets over the base and one of them,
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wobbles to the ground and he said it was like a leaf,
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like a leaf floating down from the side of the way.
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He said it was like, it looked like it was in trouble.
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Well, anybody, any credible witnesses you ever talked to about a flying saucer when they're hovering,
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They kind of, all the witnesses will tell you that it was like a ship floating on a rough sea almost
[0:33:44 - 0:33:48] ▶
kind of, they do this kind of movement.
[0:33:48 - 0:33:49] ▶
I've seen footage of a UFO one time that did exactly that and it's, it looks like it's
[0:33:49 - 0:33:54] ▶
It's kind of way, I don't know, it's just, it's not stable.
[0:33:58 - 0:34:01] ▶
So, anyway, he says it wobbles down to the ground like it was in trouble.
[0:34:01 - 0:34:05] ▶
But I don't think Alan knew that's how they hover apparently.
[0:34:05 - 0:34:07] ▶
So, it comes down to the ground and he goes, you know, James,
[0:34:08 - 0:34:12] ▶
I said, well, hold on a second, was the camera on sticks?
[0:34:13 - 0:34:16] ▶
Was it handheld? Was it black and white?
[0:34:16 - 0:34:18] ▶
Like, what, you know, because if it was on sticks and they were anticipating it coming.
[0:34:19 - 0:34:24] ▶
Are you also listening for where, it feels like when you do this because you want such detail,
[0:34:25 - 0:34:30] ▶
are you trying to listen to poke holes on where he's not going to be very sure about something
[0:34:30 - 0:34:35] ▶
and you can kind of pick up on it?
[0:34:35 - 0:34:37] ▶
Yeah, I want every, every, I did that, you know, I did that once with Ed Grimitial,
[0:34:37 - 0:34:43] ▶
the Pollo 14, six man to walk on the moon because I wanted to know it was like to walk on the moon.
[0:34:43 - 0:34:47] ▶
I'll give me every detail, you know, down to the macro media rights, pelting the skin of the
[0:34:48 - 0:34:51] ▶
crap they were sitting on the surface of the moon. But that's another story.
[0:34:51 - 0:34:54] ▶
So, anyway, he says it lands and he said, James, just like in a sci-fi movie,
[0:34:54 - 0:34:58] ▶
the seamless door opens and outcome, these beans that had very large noses, slits for mouths,
[0:34:59 - 0:35:07] ▶
and their eyes were like almost like a vertical slit, like a cat eye, like very big.
[0:35:07 - 0:35:12] ▶
And they had, I'm just like a, I'm not saying, I need to make this abundantly clear to your audience.
[0:35:12 - 0:35:19] ▶
I'm not saying what's true or what's not true or if it happened or if it's alien or whatever it is,
[0:35:19 - 0:35:25] ▶
I'm just telling you what I was told by people who saw it.
[0:35:25 - 0:35:28] ▶
Claimed to have seen it and that they came out and they met with the base commanders and then
[0:35:29 - 0:35:33] ▶
they either got into a Jeep or about to get into a Jeep or do something and then the film footage just
[0:35:33 - 0:35:38] ▶
cuts. So, I was like, what happened? Why didn't you guys get to use that footage? He goes,
[0:35:38 - 0:35:49] ▶
well, there was one of our flying saucers. Alan was like, it was definitely one of our flying
[0:35:49 - 0:35:53] ▶
saucers. I was like, so you think that we have flying saucer technology in our possession?
[0:35:53 - 0:35:57] ▶
He goes, yeah, but it wasn't very good because it couldn't hover very well. It was look like it was
[0:35:57 - 0:36:00] ▶
in trouble. I think you have to wait. One of ours. That's what he was saying.
[0:36:00 - 0:36:04] ▶
He's talking about, he's mentioning the scene, the creature here too.
[0:36:04 - 0:36:08] ▶
Yeah, so here's what his thoughts were. His thoughts were that it was a real flying saucer.
[0:36:08 - 0:36:16] ▶
There's an our possession that would indicate that we had that technology in 1972,
[0:36:16 - 0:36:21] ▶
which I think is bullshit. And that the beans were made up, dressed up, whatever.
[0:36:21 - 0:36:29] ▶
He's like, I can't say for sure. So, I'm hammering. So, I really stuck my teeth into it.
[0:36:30 - 0:36:37] ▶
Now, the point of this is that there is very credible testimony claims
[0:36:37 - 0:36:45] ▶
that a UFO landed at Holliman Air Force Base. There were a number of witnesses
[0:36:46 - 0:36:49] ▶
that were on the record. Crowell Lorenzo documented this whole thing in the UFO bulletin.
[0:36:51 - 0:36:55] ▶
Then there was a film made roughly eight years later that was going to possibly include
[0:36:55 - 0:37:02] ▶
that footage. Now, Paul Schartel, who showed the footage to Alan Sandler, had man and dark suits
[0:37:02 - 0:37:08] ▶
show up from wherever and say, you know, don't ever talk what happened here. This was not supposed to
[0:37:08 - 0:37:14] ▶
have happened and took the footage away and debriefed him and that was the end of that.
[0:37:14 - 0:37:18] ▶
So, you're looking a lot, please. You know, I know. Right here. Your name is John Smith.
[0:37:18 - 0:37:22] ▶
So, Alan, so Alan didn't tell Eminager for 40, whatever it was years. Yeah. So, that whole aspect of
[0:37:22 - 0:37:31] ▶
it came out. So, now, the point of the story is this. Okay. Now, if you go online, you hear about
[0:37:31 - 0:37:40] ▶
secret meetings with President Eisenhower and aliens at a base and Bum-A-Blaw. You hear all
[0:37:40 - 0:37:45] ▶
the shit. You know, like there's no substance to that story at all. In fact, there's lots of
[0:37:45 - 0:37:52] ▶
substance to the story I just told you guys. There is a credibly compelling testimony that that event
[0:37:52 - 0:37:59] ▶
happened and that there's film footage of that event. Now, what exactly it was? Was it first contact?
[0:37:59 - 0:38:05] ▶
Was it a staged event? Was it our technology? Was it a flying? I don't know. But that story
[0:38:06 - 0:38:12] ▶
probably happened. Okay. Some aspect of it. The meeting with the aliens and the treaties and all
[0:38:13 - 0:38:20] ▶
this stuff with President Eisenhower. Was that just thrown in there to throw everybody off?
[0:38:20 - 0:38:25] ▶
In my opinion, absolutely yes. Is there a substance to the story I just shared with you?
[0:38:25 - 0:38:30] ▶
Absolutely yes. But now, suddenly, everything's been, the waters have been muddied.
[0:38:30 - 0:38:35] ▶
What a can of worms. Who the hell wants to look into that case of our president in the
[0:38:36 - 0:38:40] ▶
United States making contact and signing treaties with aliens. So it's like, oh,
[0:38:40 - 0:38:44] ▶
I'm going to steer clear of that. So just giving you one example of obviuification. It's a perfect
[0:38:44 - 0:38:52] ▶
thing to do. I mean, what a great look. They had everyone's like, well, if you're a foes
[0:38:52 - 0:38:58] ▶
real, they'd land on the White House lawn. Well, they almost did in 1952, two consecutive weekends in
[0:38:58 - 0:39:03] ▶
July. Okay. They buzzed the Capitol. They buzzed the White House. Yeah. And we're going to bookmark
[0:39:03 - 0:39:09] ▶
that. Yeah. Very compelling. In fact, we have testimony never before seen eyewitness testimony of
[0:39:09 - 0:39:18] ▶
the man who was in the radar room listening to the voices of the military jet pilot that was
[0:39:18 - 0:39:29] ▶
flying at 500 miles an hour through the darkness, the complete pitch black sky and is surrounded by
[0:39:29 - 0:39:36] ▶
UFOs over the Capitol in 1952 July. Holy shit. The man that was in the radar room, it's phenomenal
[0:39:36 - 0:39:43] ▶
testimony, phenomenal. Like he's suddenly surrounded by these little UFOs are surrounding him.
[0:39:43 - 0:39:49] ▶
What do I do? And they're looking, they can see it on the radar. There's his plane and there's
[0:39:49 - 0:39:53] ▶
his UFOs all around him. What do I do? You know, they're giving the orders to shoot. That's a whole
[0:39:53 - 0:39:59] ▶
another thing that we could talk about later. But you know what? Fuck a bookmark on this. Hold on a minute.
[0:39:59 - 0:40:03] ▶
So, will you say something like that? And you're like, oh, yeah, no, 100% there were 1952.
[0:40:03 - 0:40:09] ▶
There were UFOs and DC and whatever. And then people hear some about Eisenhower. I'm just thinking
[0:40:09 - 0:40:13] ▶
of like all the most cynical people out there who are like, what the fuck am I even listening to right now?
[0:40:13 - 0:40:16] ▶
Let's start with the 52 thing. Yes.
[0:40:17 - 0:40:19] ▶
You're saying that we had witnesses on the ground in DC. Did you say they were all government related
[0:40:21 - 0:40:30] ▶
or were there also civilians? Let's start. Well, there were civilians too, but they were government
[0:40:30 - 0:40:33] ▶
related like pilots and radar operators and Alchop. I think he was like public relations between
[0:40:33 - 0:40:39] ▶
UFO. Are you have to look them up? Alchop. But Alchop was in the radar room in 1952 when
[0:40:40 - 0:40:46] ▶
they scrambled military jets that were doing roughly 500 miles an hour through the pitch black.
[0:40:46 - 0:40:54] ▶
But these UFOs allegedly do like 12,000 miles an hour or something. Well, my point is this.
[0:40:54 - 0:40:59] ▶
The pilot was terrified. He was flying in pitch black 500 miles an hour over the Capitol.
[0:40:59 - 0:41:04] ▶
And how many had they cited again? You said so much in their life. And they're like,
[0:41:04 - 0:41:07] ▶
make sure we're following five to 12 UFOs. How many are we talking?
[0:41:07 - 0:41:11] ▶
They were like, remember they described the Tick-Tack? They were in that ballpark size.
[0:41:11 - 0:41:19] ▶
And they were surrounding his craft flying at 500 miles an hour. They were just, I mean,
[0:41:19 - 0:41:24] ▶
they were peer over here, peer over there. And at first, there was two consecutive weekends in
[0:41:24 - 0:41:29] ▶
July of 1952. You guys can, anyone can google it. And at first, these UFOs would appear,
[0:41:29 - 0:41:38] ▶
they'd scramble the jets. And then soon as the jets were got anywhere near them, they were gone.
[0:41:38 - 0:41:43] ▶
They're just poof gone. But at one point, the military jet, the pilot,
[0:41:43 - 0:41:52] ▶
went after them and they surrounded his plane. And Alchop was in the room. We have testimony on
[0:41:54 - 0:42:01] ▶
camera for the first time ever because it was part of an archive. This guy went around with a
[0:42:01 - 0:42:06] ▶
camera and documented all these historical cases that God, but he never did anything. He never
[0:42:06 - 0:42:13] ▶
did anything with it. Tom Tullian and Tom Project Archive. And I had read about this project archive.
[0:42:13 - 0:42:24] ▶
And I was like, oh my God, footage of Alchop footage of this other person. This is unheard of.
[0:42:24 - 0:42:28] ▶
Nobody's got any of this stuff. And reached out to him and he's like, no, I don't know what you're
[0:42:28 - 0:42:33] ▶
talking about. That's just some weird rumor on the internet. I don't have any of that stuff.
[0:42:33 - 0:42:36] ▶
And I was like, that's kind of weird. So then I was like, well, I'm working with Jacques
[0:42:36 - 0:42:40] ▶
Flae. And he's like, you're working with Jacques Flae? I have the footage. Yeah, it's a matter of
[0:42:40 - 0:42:47] ▶
fact. Yeah, I was like, so can you get me dinner with Jacques Flae? I said, I'll fly you out.
[0:42:47 - 0:42:51] ▶
And we'll get together. And so I did. I flew about Tom Tullian. We had dinner and he goes, I'll
[0:42:51 - 0:42:56] ▶
tell you what, I'll make a couple of people. I've got this big archive. But honestly, I've got
[0:42:56 - 0:43:00] ▶
these other plans for it. I need to actually remember that because that guy's sitting on some crazy
[0:43:00 - 0:43:04] ▶
stuff. And I'll make a couple of selected reviews from my catalog available to you. And one of them
[0:43:04 - 0:43:09] ▶
was Alchop. And Alchop describes, because the first time ever in the 1952 case over Washington,
[0:43:09 - 0:43:15] ▶
DC, where you have a witness that was in the radar room and heard the pilot of the military jet,
[0:43:15 - 0:43:21] ▶
heard his voice. Yeah. Saw the radar. Saw his jet and all the UFOs around it. And listen to the
[0:43:21 - 0:43:30] ▶
pilots voice who was terrified. What do I do? What do I do? They all just said they're stood there
[0:43:30 - 0:43:36] ▶
and shocked. They didn't know what to tell them to do. We sure this wasn't like the Nazis and they
[0:43:36 - 0:43:41] ▶
just figured some shit out there on World War II and they were left out. So, so here's the thing.
[0:43:41 - 0:43:45] ▶
Here's my, I got thrown out there. But here's my point again because I'm going to get back to
[0:43:45 - 0:43:48] ▶
obfuscation. Okay. So what happens? Very compelling testimony, very, you know, military pilots, radar
[0:43:48 - 0:43:57] ▶
confirmation, visual confirmation, air to air radar, air to ground radar, ground to air radar,
[0:43:57 - 0:44:04] ▶
you know, all this stuff. Really good case. Of course, none of that made it in Project Blue Book,
[0:44:04 - 0:44:10] ▶
but that's another story. So what happens? They got to figure, they got to do something to make
[0:44:10 - 0:44:15] ▶
it headlight news, Google it, anyone can Google UFOs over Washington, 1952. It's behind you. Yeah.
[0:44:15 - 0:44:19] ▶
What the hell? Yeah. Yeah. There we go. So they form the military, the CIA gets involved.
[0:44:20 - 0:44:27] ▶
They get a panel called the Robertson panel, intellectual heavyweights, think tank kind of thing,
[0:44:28 - 0:44:33] ▶
and they're, they get together. I don't know what the, it was a couple of weeks.
[0:44:33 - 0:44:36] ▶
We got to figure this problem out. This is a problem, right? We don't have control of our
[0:44:37 - 0:44:42] ▶
airspace. We don't have explanation. They had a big, big, it was the biggest news conference
[0:44:42 - 0:44:48] ▶
with General John Sanford since the ending of World War II, 1952. They probably did that in July as
[0:44:48 - 0:44:55] ▶
well. You can look that one up. General John Sanford gives a press test, press, like addresses the
[0:44:55 - 0:45:01] ▶
nation in uniform, a general. Basically saying, hey, we got these objects. Could be weather phenomenon
[0:45:01 - 0:45:08] ▶
or there are these things that we just can't explain coming from very credible people and
[0:45:09 - 0:45:14] ▶
you know, it's pretty a big statement from the military general in 1952. It's like, wow.
[0:45:15 - 0:45:20] ▶
So they got this problem. So the CIA gets involved. They get the Robertson panel, 1953, early on
[0:45:20 - 0:45:27] ▶
in 1953. And ultimately what they say is, well, you know, lying to the public, so many tests,
[0:45:27 - 0:45:35] ▶
I tell you what we're going to do. We're going to adopt this policy of ridicule.
[0:45:36 - 0:45:42] ▶
And that's pretty much how this story has remained covered up for all these years because
[0:45:44 - 0:45:54] ▶
ridicule. And it was a policy that was adopted in 1953 by the Robertson panel.
[0:45:55 - 0:46:00] ▶
And it stuck. How very CIA of them. Yeah. And so that's obfuscation. That's just throw in a bunch of
[0:46:01 - 0:46:07] ▶
ridicule and jokes and laughs. If you think about a military pilot being surrounded by UFOs,
[0:46:07 - 0:46:11] ▶
being seen visually, picked up on radar, all that stuff, gun can footage.
[0:46:11 - 0:46:16] ▶
There's nothing really funny about that. That's pretty intense. But you have the ridicule
[0:46:17 - 0:46:22] ▶
factor. So now you got this knee jerk reaction anytime UFOs are mentioned, it's giggle factor.
[0:46:22 - 0:46:29] ▶
And that's a very effective campaign. And that's already in 1953. So I think that's another one
[0:46:29 - 0:46:34] ▶
of the reasons why they have changed the acronym from UFO to UAP. And now it's something else now.
[0:46:34 - 0:46:40] ▶
But it's unidentified aerial phenomenon. There are other reasons too.
[0:46:40 - 0:46:43] ▶
Why? Because it had baggage. The word UFO has baggage. And you're saying they don't want it to have
[0:46:43 - 0:46:48] ▶
baggage. They don't want it to have baggage. You don't think that like the intelligence services
[0:46:48 - 0:46:51] ▶
don't want it to have baggage. Well, it does have baggage and they don't want that baggage. Yeah.
[0:46:51 - 0:46:57] ▶
That's definitely one of the reasons why I promise you that's one of the reasons why they change
[0:46:58 - 0:47:02] ▶
it. Promise you also it's slightly more accurate. But yeah, there are so many things by
[0:47:02 - 0:47:06] ▶
I do want to say this like for the record. Yeah. There are so many things you're saying in these
[0:47:06 - 0:47:11] ▶
stories that I'm saying maybe every 15 seconds where I could stop you and ask like a clarification
[0:47:11 - 0:47:17] ▶
question. But there's just too much. So that would ruin the podcast. So for people out there right
[0:47:17 - 0:47:21] ▶
now who are listening like, but what about this? What about that? Fair. We'll have some more podcasts
[0:47:21 - 0:47:25] ▶
in the future and we can go look at some holes or some stuff. We had to be like another story
[0:47:25 - 0:47:29] ▶
for another day. And we will get to that at some point like in the future. I just want to make
[0:47:29 - 0:47:33] ▶
sure like people aren't just you know, some things aren't at least being questioned. But I'm still
[0:47:33 - 0:47:38] ▶
obviously clarifying on some major things I hear. And so on this on this last point about the
[0:47:38 - 0:47:44] ▶
ridicule. I mean, we know it's been covered in here in probably every podcast in America. Little
[0:47:44 - 0:47:49] ▶
green man that that the CIA essentially was very responsible for getting the the term conspiracy
[0:47:49 - 0:47:56] ▶
theory into popular vocabulary after JFK and all that shit because they wanted people to make
[0:47:56 - 0:48:05] ▶
everything in conspiracy and mission accomplished fellas. If you read the YouTube fucking comments
[0:48:05 - 0:48:09] ▶
out there like everyone thinks everything that ever happened is like, oh my god, it was this
[0:48:09 - 0:48:13] ▶
and so it then you get to cloak the 1% in the 99 of bullshit and people will you can just always
[0:48:14 - 0:48:23] ▶
use the excuse of well, this one isn't one of the 1% and so they can do the same thing. And to
[0:48:23 - 0:48:28] ▶
hear you use that word ridicule for a 1952 9 11 years before Kennedy got whacked right? Yeah. That
[0:48:28 - 0:48:35] ▶
is that's very interesting that they were on this topic of the most I guess like
[0:48:35 - 0:48:40] ▶
yeah, no pun intended otherworldly talking about UFOs and stuff they they would want that to be
[0:48:41 - 0:48:48] ▶
like, oh yeah, that crazy asshole at the bar talking about this. Yeah, a limited reminder audience.
[0:48:48 - 0:48:53] ▶
I'm very knowledgeable on what I'm knowledgeable about in terms of the the cases and the historical
[0:48:56 - 0:49:01] ▶
perspective. I don't like read about stuff and report on it. I go after the first hand
[0:49:01 - 0:49:10] ▶
eyewitness testimony whether it's archival or whether they're still alive. I'm going after it.
[0:49:10 - 0:49:15] ▶
Okay, I want the first hand eyewitness testimony. That means the world to me. When I look into a
[0:49:15 - 0:49:21] ▶
specific case, I stick my teeth into it. And sometimes I'll stick my teeth into it for years.
[0:49:21 - 0:49:25] ▶
Not like I'm working on that case every day for five years, but on and off, you know,
[0:49:26 - 0:49:30] ▶
the 1952 case, I wanted to test the money from El Chop. Well, guess what? We found it first time ever.
[0:49:30 - 0:49:36] ▶
I mean, that's just that's because you have all the newspaper reporting. It's really interesting.
[0:49:37 - 0:49:41] ▶
You got, you know, 1952. You got Project Boobak going in full swing. Okay. Did they interview the pilot
[0:49:41 - 0:49:48] ▶
who was surrounded? No, no, they did not. Oh, that's that's an air hole. That's a pretty damn big hole,
[0:49:48 - 0:49:55] ▶
but now we have testimony from a guy who was in the radar room describing the pilot's voice.
[0:49:55 - 0:50:01] ▶
Like for the first time ever, they didn't interview the bloody pilot as part of their public
[0:50:01 - 0:50:07] ▶
blue book files. Did you say that you knew who, that we know who he is? I can't remember that.
[0:50:07 - 0:50:12] ▶
I do have his name. I just, it's in, it's in the phenomenon. I've got a photograph of him
[0:50:12 - 0:50:17] ▶
with his airplane. And I believe his name beneath it. I'm sorry. I don't remember his name,
[0:50:17 - 0:50:21] ▶
but I think he's a new too. And, and but, but he, no statements from him. Hello. He's dead now.
[0:50:21 - 0:50:27] ▶
Of course he's dead now. Al Chop's dead now, but we, I keep thinking El Chop. Every time he's
[0:50:27 - 0:50:31] ▶
in El Chop, I know El Chop. I don't know. I'm like a brick of cout to cout. El Chop is doing an
[0:50:31 - 0:50:35] ▶
interview in the 80s and he's old then. And he's smoking a cigarette there in the interview.
[0:50:35 - 0:50:40] ▶
The aliens were here, Chico, but he was in a panic. He was part of like public relations officer,
[0:50:40 - 0:50:46] ▶
or liaison press, liaison, something like that. It's explaining the phenomenon. And I got his
[0:50:46 - 0:50:51] ▶
testimony in the phenomenon. So what, I guess what I'm saying is what, what I know is from my own
[0:50:51 - 0:50:56] ▶
first hand, I go to on location. Yes. I'm investigating a case in Africa. Guess what I go to Africa?
[0:50:56 - 0:51:02] ▶
I'm investigating the landing case in Sacorn de Mexico. I'm going to Sacorn de Mexico. I'm talking
[0:51:02 - 0:51:06] ▶
to the family. I'm going to the National Archives. I'm talking to the friends. I'm talking to co-workers.
[0:51:06 - 0:51:11] ▶
I'm really going to stick my case into my teeth into this case because I don't believe something.
[0:51:11 - 0:51:16] ▶
Initially, when I hear something like a landing in Africa, bullshit, right? A UFO crash in
[0:51:16 - 0:51:22] ▶
Brazil, bullshit, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Period. I don't care what you
[0:51:22 - 0:51:28] ▶
think of Carl Sagan. He said that and it's true. So in any case, all the stuff I'm sharing with
[0:51:28 - 0:51:36] ▶
your audience is stuff that I have personally looked into and gotten the testimony, other archival
[0:51:36 - 0:51:44] ▶
or went, met with the witnesses years later or both. That's how I draw my own conclusions based
[0:51:44 - 0:51:49] ▶
on my personal research. I don't just like, like somebody who remained nameless, but he wrote a book
[0:51:49 - 0:51:54] ▶
on Sacoro and he got the symbol wrong that was on the side of the craft. And I called him up and
[0:51:54 - 0:51:58] ▶
I was like, hey, you know, well, how do you know? I said, because I went to the National Archives and
[0:51:58 - 0:52:03] ▶
I got the document that was written in Dr. Heinrich's own handwriting of the case, then I talked to
[0:52:03 - 0:52:08] ▶
his wife and I talked to the people around him and you know, and that's how I know, you know,
[0:52:08 - 0:52:13] ▶
he's like, I was like, have you been to Sacoro? He's like, no. So you did a film, you did, you wrote
[0:52:13 - 0:52:19] ▶
an entire book on this case and you never even went to Sacoro or the National Archives? Probably a
[0:52:19 - 0:52:24] ▶
government plant. He's not actually, but I bless his heart as a good guy. Good guy, but how are
[0:52:24 - 0:52:29] ▶
you going to write a book on something if you haven't even been to the location you haven't met with
[0:52:29 - 0:52:32] ▶
you know, friends, his wife said to me, I'll never forget this. This is a guy who probably looked
[0:52:33 - 0:52:40] ▶
an alien straight in the eyes. Please, officer, and this is not coming from me. This is coming from
[0:52:40 - 0:52:46] ▶
them. She said, I don't know what he saw, but he was never the same. And he admits that he made
[0:52:47 - 0:52:55] ▶
eye contact with this thing, like it looked because he was calling out. He was driving in his car
[0:52:55 - 0:53:01] ▶
because he saw the object coming down as if it was landing and it was in trouble. He didn't know
[0:53:01 - 0:53:05] ▶
what it was. And then what was the aftermath of the thing they got back in and they left, right?
[0:53:05 - 0:53:09] ▶
Yeah, they got back in. So what happened was he was, he was pursuing a speeder through the town
[0:53:09 - 0:53:15] ▶
of Sacornamexco, April 24th, 1964, about five o'clock in the afternoon. And he's chasing after this
[0:53:15 - 0:53:21] ▶
car. It was convertible. And he sees like, like, something flickering in the sky off to his right.
[0:53:21 - 0:53:28] ▶
And he knows there's a dynamite, dynamite shack. And he thought maybe some dynamite was going
[0:53:28 - 0:53:33] ▶
off. He was like, oh, shoot, this could be trouble. So he like terminates the chase and he drives
[0:53:33 - 0:53:38] ▶
up this hill to get a look. And he sees this, this object down, he gets up the hill and he looks
[0:53:38 - 0:53:44] ▶
down in this little rollo and he sees this object sitting on the ground with a couple of like these
[0:53:44 - 0:53:50] ▶
small little diminutive children like people, what he said. Looking at him, he's got his window
[0:53:50 - 0:53:58] ▶
rolled down and he's in his cop car. And he's probably a couple hundred feet, 300 feet, maybe a little
[0:53:58 - 0:54:04] ▶
more away from this object. He's got the window down. He's got his arm out the window and he's
[0:54:04 - 0:54:08] ▶
looking out the window with the window down. What am I looking at? He's like, did a car crash and
[0:54:08 - 0:54:13] ▶
there's a couple of kids down there. So he's calling out, he's trying to call out like, hey, you okay?
[0:54:13 - 0:54:20] ▶
You guys okay? Or is there anything okay down there? And I know this because I read the article
[0:54:20 - 0:54:26] ▶
that was written right after it happened. I was going over it with Mary's and more his wife.
[0:54:26 - 0:54:29] ▶
And at which point one of them looked him right in the eyes. And it really like, I don't know,
[0:54:30 - 0:54:36] ▶
he didn't talk about any level of communication. If he had any communication, whether he did or
[0:54:36 - 0:54:40] ▶
didn't, I don't know. But he decides he's going to get a closer look at this thing. And in the process
[0:54:40 - 0:54:45] ▶
of doing so, he had to lose sight of the object for a moment. And I don't know how much you could
[0:54:45 - 0:54:51] ▶
see that like, let's just say like the UFO's here. He's on a dirt road here. Okay. And he's looking
[0:54:51 - 0:54:58] ▶
that way. He's going to drive around here. But in the process of driving from here to here, he
[0:54:58 - 0:55:05] ▶
loses contact with it just for a little bit. Well, he gets here. What do you mean he lost contact?
[0:55:05 - 0:55:11] ▶
He couldn't see it visually for a second because he had to drive around a little hills and bushes.
[0:55:11 - 0:55:15] ▶
So he lost visual contact with the craft that was sitting on the ground with the two beans on the
[0:55:16 - 0:55:21] ▶
outside. Okay. So he drives around and now he's about 50 feet away from this thing, 60 feet.
[0:55:21 - 0:55:26] ▶
And he gets out of his car. And as he's getting out of the car to get a closer look to walk towards
[0:55:27 - 0:55:32] ▶
this thing, he takes about two or three steps. He hears a clunk and he used to be in the arm and
[0:55:32 - 0:55:37] ▶
you sit it sounded like that of a hatch of a tank. It was a very like you know, and he didn't see
[0:55:37 - 0:55:43] ▶
them get in it. He didn't see the door closed. That's what he heard. He got about three or four
[0:55:43 - 0:55:49] ▶
strides towards this egg-shaped object that had a red symbol on the side of it, which again,
[0:55:49 - 0:55:57] ▶
obvioscation. Okay. Well, this was actually one of the good things to have happened. When the
[0:55:57 - 0:56:02] ▶
first military officer arrived on the scene from the army, his name was Richard T. Holder.
[0:56:02 - 0:56:06] ▶
And Richard Holder asked him if he wouldn't mind to say that the symbol was something different
[0:56:06 - 0:56:13] ▶
than what it was and that the original symbol was never released to the general public. We found
[0:56:13 - 0:56:18] ▶
it in the archives in Dr. Heinrich's own handwriting and we had a description of it from the initial
[0:56:18 - 0:56:24] ▶
leaks that came out from the reporters that were on scene before the military got there. And it
[0:56:24 - 0:56:28] ▶
was an inverted V with three lines. So we weren't sure what is that way. So it would be like an A
[0:56:28 - 0:56:35] ▶
basically like this. Three lines, right? Yeah, with three lines. So we thought that maybe it was a
[0:56:35 - 0:56:39] ▶
line here, a line here, a line here. Like a pyramid. Yeah, but as it turns out, we found out for the
[0:56:39 - 0:56:45] ▶
first time and I took this guy, Ray Stanford, who wrote the book on it, a Sikuro solstera in a
[0:56:45 - 0:56:49] ▶
Pentagon band-tree. You could look that up too. And Ray had been fighting the general public and
[0:56:49 - 0:56:55] ▶
the UFO community for 50 years when I took him to the National Archives and he was reluctant to
[0:56:55 - 0:57:01] ▶
want to go with me. We're not going to find anything. Nothing new. I said, well, if you have that
[0:57:01 - 0:57:06] ▶
attitude, we're not going to find anything. I've researched, I said, let's go to the National Archives.
[0:57:06 - 0:57:09] ▶
So we go there and low and behold, I won't bore your audience with how it came about. But we got
[0:57:09 - 0:57:13] ▶
the original project, Blue Book files from that case and they were original, not photocopies, not
[0:57:13 - 0:57:20] ▶
microfilm, original copies, original drawings. And we found the letter from Dr. Jalen Haida
[0:57:20 - 0:57:26] ▶
who investigated the case for the United States Air Force of an inverted V and three lines. And
[0:57:26 - 0:57:30] ▶
you verified it was his handwriting. Oh, 100%. I was right out of the Air Force files.
[0:57:31 - 0:57:36] ▶
It's an inverted V. I could draw it for your audience, but it's a slit here, one here, one here,
[0:57:36 - 0:57:41] ▶
one here, one here, one here, and then one on top, averted V. I think I have it on the side of the
[0:57:41 - 0:57:46] ▶
craft in the film. I'll do a shitty drawing and put it in the film. That's a little that dangerously
[0:57:46 - 0:57:51] ▶
close to the pyramid angle though. What Richard Holder did was he got... Actually, it made sense.
[0:57:51 - 0:57:59] ▶
It made sense. He got Lonnie to lie and say... Then it was something else, like a U-shaped thing
[0:57:59 - 0:58:07] ▶
with a line here and some an arrow. Why? Because if there were any copycat people that wanted to
[0:58:07 - 0:58:14] ▶
be in the limelight that said I saw the same thing and yes, that was a symbol on the side then they
[0:58:14 - 0:58:19] ▶
immediately be able to identify a hoaxter. And that's why they did. So it was smart. Very smart.
[0:58:19 - 0:58:25] ▶
Yeah, it was smart. So the truth about that never came out, but you know, and it's funny actually
[0:58:25 - 0:58:32] ▶
again, there was in the documentary, I did... God, this is great. You know what? I'll talk about this
[0:58:32 - 0:58:40] ▶
right now because this is pretty intense. And you know what? I know I said this earlier, by the way,
[0:58:40 - 0:58:44] ▶
I just want you to be totally free-flowing. I had said once or twice early in the podcast, we're
[0:58:44 - 0:58:48] ▶
gonna get to a moment of contact. When I have a guest who's riding on some shit, we're riding on some
[0:58:48 - 0:58:53] ▶
shem plans or out the window. So, I'm keep on. We'll get there. I've never gone public with this
[0:58:53 - 0:58:57] ▶
because... Okay, so... Oh, that's over. Let's go. All right, let me give you guys the
[0:58:58 - 0:59:05] ▶
truncated version because it's kind of cool. I interviewed... When I tell you I stick my teeth
[0:59:05 - 0:59:11] ▶
into a case, I stuck my teeth into a case. Let me take a sip of water. I know. I talk to this guy
[0:59:11 - 0:59:17] ▶
Christopher O'Brien. He's like, you're doing a document, you know, you're gonna cover the
[0:59:17 - 0:59:21] ▶
Sakura New Mexico case. I don't know. My audience is probably only gonna be eight to ten minutes max
[0:59:21 - 0:59:26] ▶
in an hour and a half or an hour and 40-minute film. But I want to get it right. I don't want to get
[0:59:26 - 0:59:32] ▶
a re-aspect of it right. So, I have flew to the East Coast. I met with this guy Ray Stanford who wrote
[0:59:32 - 0:59:37] ▶
the book, Squirrel Sonsford, Penn and Gunn Bantry, talking about the case. Apparently he was there
[0:59:37 - 0:59:42] ▶
within a week or so. It saw the imprint, saw all this stuff. And in his book, Ray is talking about
[0:59:42 - 0:59:49] ▶
metal shavings from the landing gear of the craft that were recovered at the site. And Ray
[0:59:49 - 0:59:57] ▶
Stanford actually had those in his possession. Now, were they metal or were they metal appearing
[0:59:57 - 1:00:03] ▶
because it could be some element we don't know about. So, here's what he explained it to me.
[1:00:03 - 1:00:08] ▶
He said that and I wasn't going to... In fact, I didn't even include this in the phenomenon. I didn't...
[1:00:08 - 1:00:12] ▶
So, and I had the rocks, Ray Stanford showed me the rocks. What happened? The landing gear came down.
[1:00:13 - 1:00:19] ▶
This thing was very, very heavy and it broke this rock in half. It was a very hard rock and it had a
[1:00:19 - 1:00:25] ▶
razor sharp edge. And the landing gear came down and hit that razor sharp edge of the freshly broken
[1:00:25 - 1:00:31] ▶
rock and it peeled like a shaving. Very thin shaving. Like almost like when they make drinks and they
[1:00:31 - 1:00:37] ▶
get the orange and they get the little thing out and make those. He said it was like that. Metal shavings.
[1:00:37 - 1:00:42] ▶
And he got those. He dropped one of them in tall grass and never found it. The other one went to a lab
[1:00:43 - 1:00:52] ▶
at NASA and they determined that they were magnesium isotopes not found in the US, not found in
[1:00:53 - 1:01:01] ▶
the world, something like this. Is this what you had the stand for doctor look at? No, different
[1:01:01 - 1:01:05] ▶
thing. Yes. Because he was talking about isotopes. No, I'm not crazy. Yeah, no, you're not crazy.
[1:01:05 - 1:01:09] ▶
But that was a different thing. So this was Ray Stanford story to me and he was like, I took
[1:01:10 - 1:01:15] ▶
these in and he was like, I had them in my hands and he took one one. He dropped in tall grass
[1:01:15 - 1:01:21] ▶
and never I was like, you dropped it tall grass. You never recover. He goes, I looked at it with
[1:01:21 - 1:01:25] ▶
my hands and knees for hours. I don't know what happened. He was devastated talking about it like
[1:01:25 - 1:01:30] ▶
40 years later. It was devastated. So inconvenient. God damn. So he takes the other one to a lab at NASA
[1:01:30 - 1:01:35] ▶
and the initial findings are astronomical. He's blown away and he's like, oh my God. And then
[1:01:35 - 1:01:42] ▶
they're gone. And he was like, well, what do you mean they're gone? Well, we had to destroy him in
[1:01:42 - 1:01:45] ▶
the process of, you know, so he was like somebody stepped in whatever he said my biggest regret was
[1:01:45 - 1:01:51] ▶
I trusted. You know, anyway, so that's so I heard about that, but I didn't cover it in the film.
[1:01:51 - 1:01:55] ▶
So I'm in the field. I'm in Sacorn, New Mexico and I'm interviewing his co-worker. Now his co-worker
[1:01:56 - 1:02:02] ▶
worked out the dump site. Now, Lonnie Samora was a police officer, but because of the attention and
[1:02:03 - 1:02:08] ▶
the ridicule that he got, it was putting too much pressure on him, the town, his position as a
[1:02:08 - 1:02:16] ▶
police officer. Oh, you're the guy that, you know, sees, oh, I was speeding. Oh, yeah, coming from
[1:02:16 - 1:02:22] ▶
the guy who sees little green men like, you know, that kind of thing. So he quit his job and he's got
[1:02:22 - 1:02:28] ▶
quit being a police officer. He got a job working at the dump site. And he wanted to be at the dump
[1:02:29 - 1:02:33] ▶
site because he was away from everybody else. He didn't have to see anybody else, talked to anybody
[1:02:33 - 1:02:37] ▶
else. And he worked with this guy who I have on camera. I have this everything I'm about to tell
[1:02:37 - 1:02:42] ▶
you I have on camera. None of it's been released. So I'm going to do in the interview. And I want to
[1:02:42 - 1:02:47] ▶
get his description of the beans because that was the aspect of the encounter that was so downplayed
[1:02:47 - 1:02:53] ▶
because the Air Force wanted him to really like don't talk about the aliens that you saw. Don't
[1:02:53 - 1:02:58] ▶
talk about the beans. That's much more difficult to explain. Anyway, so I this guy did not want to
[1:02:58 - 1:03:05] ▶
meet with me. Oh my gosh, we found him and I took his wife Mary out there. We're like, you know,
[1:03:05 - 1:03:10] ▶
got her involved to call and you have a gun. You're ahead. Yeah. I got I got and she didn't want to
[1:03:10 - 1:03:16] ▶
meet with either. The whole thing took a long time. This is a tight meeting. You get a lot of people
[1:03:16 - 1:03:19] ▶
to meet with. They didn't want to meet with you. They did not want to get an outsider in this
[1:03:19 - 1:03:24] ▶
community. I'm telling you it took time. And I had people that worked with me on the inside that were
[1:03:24 - 1:03:29] ▶
anyway, reluctantly we managed to get him in his yard to go on camera. He's talking about
[1:03:29 - 1:03:37] ▶
he said, you know, James, he said, I work with Lonnie. What was it? 28 years, 30 years, 35 years,
[1:03:37 - 1:03:43] ▶
long time. Ever since he left the police force in 1964. And he I think he retired in like 2003 or
[1:03:43 - 1:03:52] ▶
something like this. And he died in 2008. So he said, I never talked to him about the alien encounter.
[1:03:52 - 1:03:59] ▶
And at the end of 30 years or 20 years, whatever it was, whatever period he was, he was at the
[1:04:01 - 1:04:07] ▶
the dump site. Lonnie came to him when he was retiring. He said, you offered me an opportunity. I'm
[1:04:07 - 1:04:14] ▶
so grateful. I want to thank you so much for the employment in this. And I got to work here and
[1:04:14 - 1:04:20] ▶
and his buddy goes, yeah, I just would like one thing. And Lonnie knew immediately what he was talking
[1:04:21 - 1:04:26] ▶
about. He goes, okay, I'll tell you. So then he tells him. And of course, he's shared that with me.
[1:04:26 - 1:04:33] ▶
Thank you for watching the video guys. If you haven't already subscribed, please smash that
[1:04:33 - 1:04:37] ▶
subscribe button and check out this clip's full podcast episode by clicking here or in the description
[1:04:37 - 1:04:43] ▶