5,343 segments
Whenever you see something that doesn't fit what you know,
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a real scientist should get excited, not skeptical.
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My two guests today have credentials that are impossible to ignore.
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Dr. Eric Hazeltine was Director of Research for the National Security Agency.
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Basically, he was the tip of the spear on science and innovation
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for the U.S.'s most hardcore intelligence agency.
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Before that, he was an Executive Vice President at Walt Disney Imagineering.
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He's a neuroscientist, a futurist, and has over 70 patents to his name.
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He possibly has one of the most intriguing resumes of all time.
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When you look at all the many thousands of reports, and we've looked at all,
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and some I have guilty knowledge of from when I was inside the government,
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it's real, and it's something we do not understand.
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Dr. Chris Gilbert has an M.D. and Ph.D. from one of France's top medical schools.
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She's worked with Doctors Without Borders across four different continents,
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and she's pioneered her own incredibly unique methods in holistic medicine.
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In our own body that we've studied so much,
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there are things we're discovering that we had no idea existed.
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She also happens to be Eric's wife.
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Together, they've co-authored several books,
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including The New Science of UFOs and The Shadow of Time,
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a book involving ancient archaeological objects with anomalous properties
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being systematically excavated by private corporations.
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This thing's a cover-up.
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So when I found out that a former NSA director of research,
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who is privy to just about every sensitive piece of intelligence in the United States,
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wrote a book about anomalous objects being recovered in the desert,
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I had to reach out and learn more.
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Do you guys have kind of a base case for what's going on?
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I think what we're seeing with these credible, real phenomena
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is something really bizarre and out there.
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We might all be Martians.
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What is to say that life doesn't exist 120 light-years away from us?
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I think it's almost certain that we're evolved from building blocks that are extraterrestrial.
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There was some advanced civilization on Earth many hundreds of millions of years ago
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that discovered near-luminal travel.
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This whole interview is a fun game of cat and mouse.
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It's me basically trying to figure out whether Eric and Chris's fiction books
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were at all informed by what Eric saw behind the curtain.
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You can move something through the air where there's no engine on it at all.
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You're just pushing on it with photons.
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Did you do that at a larger scale?
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So without further ado, sit back, relax, and enjoy a mind-expanding conversation
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with a bunch of rabbit holes you won't want to climb out of
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with this week's American alchemists,
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Dr. Eric Hazeltine and Dr. Chris Gilbert.
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Ignition frequency 5.
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How is this possible?
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Nothing too unusual about that.
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The existence cannot longer be denied.
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This is a total honor.
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I feel very, as is often the case, but maybe especially today,
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intellectually underqualified to be in this room.
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Dr. Chris Gilbert, Dr. Eric Hazeltine,
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you are the former director of research at the NSA,
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the National Security Agency.
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And that role actually ended up with you on an A&E history series,
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Having been at NSA and being one of their senior leaders,
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I find that highly unlikely.
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Which is fascinating.
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You guys co-authored a book about UFOs together,
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which I can't wait to get into.
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You also worked at Hughes Aircraft,
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Disney Imagineering, Dr. Chris Gilbert.
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You've done amazing work around the world as a physician, MD, PhD.
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And you guys have co-authored a few books together,
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and I want to talk about those.
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You've independently offered a spy in Moscow station.
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And you guys have just an incredible background,
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both individually and together.
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So it's an honor to be with you today.
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That's a great honor to be here.
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Thank you so much for having us.
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I wanted to talk about your book,
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The New Science of UFOs,
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because I think it's a really great kind of survey-level overview
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of all of the possibilities.
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I think often in this space,
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there's a lot of kind of mushy-brained thinking,
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just almost people are over-indexed on intuition.
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And you really kind of lay out all of the possibilities
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from spoofing techniques to man-made craft
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to, you know, genuine non-human intelligence.
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And then you even get into frameworks
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for thinking about the non-human intelligence.
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So, yeah, why don't we start there?
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What are the possibilities kind of high-level
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when it comes to UFOs?
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and then you can fill in where I miss things.
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First of all, a little context for the book.
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I spent years at the CIA after leaving NSA and ODNI,
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where I was basically the CTO
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of the U.S. intelligence community, the whole thing.
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And I was an analyst for a particular target
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and was trained in analytic tradecraft,
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which is basically the scientific method.
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And we call it the method of competing hypothesis.
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When we see a phenomena or an event,
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we say, what are all the different hypotheses
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for what could be driving this?
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And then we go and we look for evidence
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that would support or contradict each of those.
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And at the end, we weigh it
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and come out with an assessment with the probability
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of what we think is the most likely of all of those
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with some confidence.
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And so, for example, in Iran,
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you have the Iran group at the different agencies
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doing that now saying,
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okay, Iranians have a nuclear program.
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What is our best guess
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and at what probability
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about where they are in that program
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and what their intent is?
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So that's an example.
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So with the UFOs, UAPs, we did the same.
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We said, okay, here are the reporting.
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What are all the different things that could be?
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And now let's examine them.
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So we have a matrix in there,
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which is a little bit geeky
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in that we present all of them that we surfaced.
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And then we evaluate the plus or minus.
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And at the end, we come up with a conclusion.
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So we start with the observer themself.
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When you look at a phenomena,
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you have to look at what's reporting it
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and how accurate and bias is the thing
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that's reporting it.
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So the human instrument,
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as a neuroscientist and as a physician,
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we can both tell you the human instrument
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is highly flawed, right?
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And so we look at things like optical illusions,
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emotional bias that make you see what you want to see,
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that make you see what you expect to see.
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We get into how your brain is wired to cut corners.
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And so we explore optical illusions
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or other kinds of illusions.
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We explore atmospheric effects,
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some of which are just not only being discovered,
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like sprites at southern latitudes,
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things really weird,
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ball lightning, things like that,
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plasma type effects.
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We explore the possibility that the mundane ones,
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like it's drones, balloons, things like that.
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We explore the possibility that it's of human origin,
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highly classified and super high tech.
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We explore the possibility that it's of non-human,
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but of earthly origin.
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I mean, we always assume if it's from Earth
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that it has to be human.
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Well, what we look at is old Sherlock Holmes thing.
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What isn't impossible?
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And we'll get into this more,
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but at CIA, we used to have a saying,
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an analyst that says,
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do not look for your keys under the lamppost.
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Don't look only where you can see.
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So if you're not seeing something,
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it's probably because
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you don't know where else to look.
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So one thing we used to do is say,
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what do we know or think we know?
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What can we see and not see?
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And if we're not finding the answer,
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it must be the opposite of what we can see.
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It's in the negative space.
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So I was once involved in the hunt
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for a very senior Islamic terrorist
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whose name I will not mention.
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And I was employed by CIA when I was at NSA.
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And I went to them and I said,
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you haven't found this guy.
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Where do you expect him to be?
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And where do you not expect him?
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Where do you want him to be?
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And where do you not want him to be?
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And I said, look for him where you least expect
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and least want him to be.
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Because that's where he's going to be.
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Well, my mind is now going to like dark matter
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or concepts like dark chemistry,
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parts of the universe that are honestly the majority of the universe,
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which isn't visible and doesn't seem to interact with light.
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And so I don't know if you guys have considered that as a possibility.
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We're talking also in the book about exo-psychology,
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which we kind of imagine what would that be, an extraterrestrial,
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So it could be made of dark matter and feeding on dark energy.
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It could be, and we said that it could be anything that we could not think about.
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So what are we not thinking about?
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What could we not predict?
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So we could not predict that they might not derive from animal forms,
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that they might not derive from plants,
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that they don't require food or water to survive, maybe,
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that maybe they are immortal,
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that maybe they don't sexually reproduce.
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We imagine that they sexually reproduce, maybe not.
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Maybe they have no written or spoken language.
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Maybe they don't emotionally bond with others.
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Maybe they are not a social species.
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Maybe they are not curious.
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We think they are aggressive.
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Maybe they are not aggressive.
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What if they have all the resources they can ever need?
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there are a collection of single cells
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that origin develop and live in space and not on the planet?
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Maybe we're just surrounded in space,
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but we don't see them.
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And what if they use a type of propulsion that is unknown to us?
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We think about every possible ways of moving,
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but I'm sure there are ways that we have no idea exist.
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What if they don't derive directly from biology?
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And there are hyper-advanced digital AIs.
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I mean, we're trying to think about all the elements
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that are completely out of the box,
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that nobody could think about,
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that nobody can even imagine,
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that our brain could not even compute.
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And then you have to think,
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you know, we discovered bacteria as late as the 19th century.
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And Occam's razor is it's not zero or one thing.
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It's, you know, zero or a whole host.
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We're swimming in life that might be more advanced than us.
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The way I think of it is,
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we've all seen those cartoons
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where the coyote goes through a door
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and you see the silhouette,
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you know, where he went through the door.
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And so you see where he went through
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and that's the positive space.
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The negative space is the door.
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We tend to always focus on the positive space,
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which in human terms is,
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in the intelligence world,
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we call this mirroring.
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We look at a target and say,
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they must be like us.
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Therefore, if they're doing X,
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it's for motivation Y.
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So what Dr. Gilbert just said
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is we did the opposite of that.
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We said, let's take everything that humans are
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and assume that extraterrestrials are none of those.
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They're the opposite
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because we would never think to look there
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and we never think to understand the motivation.
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So for example, let's take the Tic Tacs.
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Suppose the Tic Tacs are driven
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by an extraterrestrial species
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that are unlike us in every possible way
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and the way she just described.
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How then would you explain what they're doing?
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You wouldn't explain it with human motivations.
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You'd explain it with anti-motivations.
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And when you do that, it's freeing.
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It's kind of like in that movie,
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Pirates of the Caribbean,
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someone says to Captain Barbosa
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when they're looking for Captain Jack
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and they say, Captain, we're lost.
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And he goes, I, you have to get lost
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to find something that can't be found.
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That is really deep.
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And that's why, like I say,
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in the intelligence world,
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when we're doing our job right,
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we understand our own limitations.
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And one very productive place to look
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is where we know we're blind
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and then to purposely try to look there.
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Oh, that's so fascinating.
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Something I think about a lot with this topic
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is we think about mining resources.
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You know, we have this whole conflict
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with China around rare earth refinement,
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What if their resources,
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like I think about what's most interesting
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and it's probably not the material world
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Maybe it's our consciousness.
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And so is there something around
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our consciousness or even our emotions
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that are more interesting to these beings
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than just, you know,
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they're here for gold or copper or whatever
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because they're, you know,
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maybe their atmosphere is burning up,
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but they need reflective material.
[0:14:45 - 0:14:46] ▶
Well, now you're getting into
[0:14:47 - 0:14:48] ▶
a really interesting field called noetics.
[0:14:48 - 0:14:51] ▶
When we first started selling merchandise
[0:14:52 - 0:14:54] ▶
at AmericanAlchemyMerch.com,
[0:14:54 - 0:14:56] ▶
we had no idea how complicated
[0:14:56 - 0:14:59] ▶
and annoying selling merch could be.
[0:14:59 - 0:15:01] ▶
We talked to a dozen different platforms
[0:15:01 - 0:15:03] ▶
and companies comparing shipping tools,
[0:15:03 - 0:15:05] ▶
payment options, website builders,
[0:15:05 - 0:15:07] ▶
and it all felt like way more of a headache
[0:15:07 - 0:15:09] ▶
and complicated than it should be.
[0:15:09 - 0:15:11] ▶
We decided on Shopify
[0:15:11 - 0:15:12] ▶
and within days our store was up.
[0:15:12 - 0:15:15] ▶
Shopify made it simple to build a store
[0:15:15 - 0:15:17] ▶
that actually feels authentic to us,
[0:15:17 - 0:15:20] ▶
which matters when your brand lives in a niche
[0:15:20 - 0:15:22] ▶
like alternative tech, UFOs, or fringe science,
[0:15:22 - 0:15:25] ▶
and when you have a very clear brand vision.
[0:15:25 - 0:15:27] ▶
Plus their AI tools help write descriptions,
[0:15:27 - 0:15:30] ▶
organize products, even clean up photos,
[0:15:30 - 0:15:33] ▶
so we can focus on what matters
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and what we care about.
[0:15:35 - 0:15:36] ▶
Building the best custom merch line possible
[0:15:36 - 0:15:39] ▶
with the coolest designs
[0:15:39 - 0:15:40] ▶
like our UFO cowboy tee and the atomic age tee.
[0:15:40 - 0:15:43] ▶
Plus Shopify handles all of the unglamorous,
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Shipping, returns, email marketing,
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It's like having a silent partner who never sleeps.
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and start today at Shopify.com slash Jesse.
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Again, that's Shopify.com slash Jesse, J-E-S-S-E,
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for a $1 a month trial.
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It's just $1 a month to try Shopify,
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the state-of-the-art solution in e-commerce.
[0:16:17 - 0:16:19] ▶
Well, now you're getting into a really interesting field
[0:16:19 - 0:16:23] ▶
And it's a fringe field of neuroscience and biology
[0:16:25 - 0:16:30] ▶
they believe that consciousness is a property of the universe,
[0:16:32 - 0:16:36] ▶
And that each of our brains is like a radio receiver
[0:16:37 - 0:16:40] ▶
that's tuned in to conscious consciousness.
[0:16:40 - 0:16:44] ▶
And that this is kind of the idea
[0:16:44 - 0:16:47] ▶
of where the soul comes from,
[0:16:47 - 0:16:48] ▶
that consciousness isn't tied to our bodies
[0:16:49 - 0:16:52] ▶
any more than radio waves are tied to a radio.
[0:16:52 - 0:16:56] ▶
I believe that because you have the binding problem,
[0:16:56 - 0:16:59] ▶
for example, in neuroscience,
[0:17:00 - 0:17:01] ▶
which is this classic problem
[0:17:01 - 0:17:03] ▶
of you have all these disparate pathways,
[0:17:03 - 0:17:04] ▶
Wernicke's area for, you know, comprehension,
[0:17:06 - 0:17:08] ▶
and you have Broca's area for speech,
[0:17:09 - 0:17:10] ▶
but they're all disparate.
[0:17:10 - 0:17:12] ▶
And then we see this perceptually seamless kind of movie.
[0:17:12 - 0:17:16] ▶
And there's this question of how that is.
[0:17:16 - 0:17:18] ▶
And I think about a radio.
[0:17:18 - 0:17:19] ▶
And if you have the radio's components,
[0:17:20 - 0:17:21] ▶
you take away the battery,
[0:17:22 - 0:17:23] ▶
you take away, you know, the capacitor,
[0:17:23 - 0:17:24] ▶
you take away the antenna.
[0:17:25 - 0:17:25] ▶
Any one of those might break the radio
[0:17:26 - 0:17:28] ▶
and the music might stop playing.
[0:17:28 - 0:17:30] ▶
But none of those productively explain
[0:17:30 - 0:17:32] ▶
why it's playing Vivaldi's four seasons.
[0:17:32 - 0:17:34] ▶
You need to know the frequency it's tapping into.
[0:17:35 - 0:17:37] ▶
So I'm not saying I'm a fan of noetics,
[0:17:38 - 0:17:40] ▶
but what I'm saying is that it's so interesting
[0:17:40 - 0:17:42] ▶
that these ideas show up throughout human history
[0:17:42 - 0:17:45] ▶
if you look at the Vedic scriptures and the Hindu
[0:17:47 - 0:17:50] ▶
and the whole notion of transcendentalism,
[0:17:50 - 0:17:52] ▶
like the deity, whatever it is,
[0:17:52 - 0:17:55] ▶
exists everywhere in all things simultaneously.
[0:17:55 - 0:17:58] ▶
And that led to transcendentalism.
[0:17:59 - 0:18:01] ▶
And you could look at Jung,
[0:18:02 - 0:18:03] ▶
who believed in the collective unconscious,
[0:18:03 - 0:18:05] ▶
as an example of the human instantiation of that.
[0:18:05 - 0:18:09] ▶
So it is interesting when you see these ideas.
[0:18:09 - 0:18:12] ▶
And I'd just like to make a comment
[0:18:13 - 0:18:15] ▶
and then turn it over to Dr. Gilbert.
[0:18:15 - 0:18:16] ▶
If you look at our language,
[0:18:17 - 0:18:18] ▶
in our heart, I believe.
[0:18:21 - 0:18:22] ▶
In my gut, I believe.
[0:18:22 - 0:18:24] ▶
Or I have this feeling.
[0:18:26 - 0:18:28] ▶
Those were metaphorical.
[0:18:28 - 0:18:30] ▶
we thought they were metaphorical.
[0:18:32 - 0:18:33] ▶
What we now know is they may not be metaphorical.
[0:18:33 - 0:18:36] ▶
That we have more neurons in our gut
[0:18:37 - 0:18:39] ▶
than the cerebral cortex of a monkey.
[0:18:39 - 0:18:41] ▶
And they're pretty damn smart.
[0:18:42 - 0:18:43] ▶
We have a huge number of neurons in our heart.
[0:18:44 - 0:18:46] ▶
And now we know the cells themselves
[0:18:46 - 0:18:49] ▶
can have perception and learning.
[0:18:49 - 0:18:50] ▶
And we have gut bacteria,
[0:18:50 - 0:18:51] ▶
which are this whole other hyper-complex organism.
[0:18:51 - 0:18:55] ▶
And so I think this is the subject
[0:18:55 - 0:18:58] ▶
of the listening cure,
[0:18:58 - 0:18:59] ▶
where Dr. Gilbert has come up with this idea
[0:18:59 - 0:19:03] ▶
of listen to your body,
[0:19:03 - 0:19:04] ▶
because all of these different entities
[0:19:04 - 0:19:07] ▶
that we call our body
[0:19:07 - 0:19:09] ▶
actually are not metaphorical.
[0:19:09 - 0:19:10] ▶
So the listening cure is one of our books
[0:19:11 - 0:19:13] ▶
how our body has a mind of its own,
[0:19:15 - 0:19:19] ▶
how each organ has a mind of its own,
[0:19:19 - 0:19:22] ▶
how each cell in the liver,
[0:19:23 - 0:19:25] ▶
each cell in the gut can have a mind of its own
[0:19:25 - 0:19:29] ▶
and a purpose and maybe feelings
[0:19:29 - 0:19:32] ▶
and connection to the brain and vice versa.
[0:19:32 - 0:19:36] ▶
But there are so many things that we don't know,
[0:19:37 - 0:19:39] ▶
that we think we know.
[0:19:40 - 0:19:41] ▶
So how is it that we can believe
[0:19:41 - 0:19:45] ▶
we know everything about space,
[0:19:45 - 0:19:47] ▶
when even in the body,
[0:19:48 - 0:19:50] ▶
in our own body that we've studied so much,
[0:19:50 - 0:19:53] ▶
there are things we're discovering
[0:19:53 - 0:19:55] ▶
that we had no idea existed.
[0:19:55 - 0:19:57] ▶
I'm going to give you an example.
[0:19:58 - 0:19:59] ▶
Like Stanford University researcher
[0:20:00 - 0:20:01] ▶
did a survey of DNA fragments
[0:20:01 - 0:20:05] ▶
circulating in the blood.
[0:20:05 - 0:20:07] ▶
And it suggests that microbes living within us
[0:20:08 - 0:20:11] ▶
are vastly more diverse than previously thought.
[0:20:11 - 0:20:14] ▶
In fact, 99% of our DNA
[0:20:15 - 0:20:18] ▶
has never been seen before.
[0:20:18 - 0:20:20] ▶
And then there is an entirely new class of life
[0:20:20 - 0:20:24] ▶
that has been found in the human digestive system
[0:20:24 - 0:20:27] ▶
And they're obelisks,
[0:20:30 - 0:20:30] ▶
microscopic rods made of RNA
[0:20:30 - 0:20:33] ▶
that we had no idea existed.
[0:20:33 - 0:20:36] ▶
And we have no idea what they do.
[0:20:36 - 0:20:38] ▶
So, and also in the brain,
[0:20:39 - 0:20:41] ▶
I mean, we think you talk about the Broca area,
[0:20:43 - 0:20:45] ▶
We don't think they're isolated.
[0:20:46 - 0:20:48] ▶
I think we think they're working
[0:20:48 - 0:20:51] ▶
in conjunction of a multitude of other kinds of cells
[0:20:51 - 0:20:55] ▶
that are necessary for their function.
[0:20:55 - 0:20:58] ▶
But we don't know exactly which ones.
[0:20:58 - 0:21:01] ▶
And we're studying this now.
[0:21:01 - 0:21:02] ▶
We think that everything is related.
[0:21:03 - 0:21:05] ▶
Every single item is related to other items
[0:21:06 - 0:21:09] ▶
in ways that we cannot comprehend yet.
[0:21:09 - 0:21:13] ▶
And that's the relationship.
[0:21:14 - 0:21:16] ▶
And everything in the universe might be,
[0:21:16 - 0:21:18] ▶
that's my assumption,
[0:21:18 - 0:21:19] ▶
that everything in the universe
[0:21:20 - 0:21:21] ▶
is probably also related, interconnected.
[0:21:21 - 0:21:24] ▶
And there's so much we don't know.
[0:21:25 - 0:21:29] ▶
And it is so fascinating to imagine
[0:21:29 - 0:21:31] ▶
and to discover what we don't know.
[0:21:32 - 0:21:34] ▶
We probably know maybe 1% of what exists in the world.
[0:21:34 - 0:21:38] ▶
We think we know so much,
[0:21:38 - 0:21:39] ▶
but we know so little.
[0:21:39 - 0:21:40] ▶
And discovering everything is like,
[0:21:40 - 0:21:42] ▶
Even in a human body, it's wonderful.
[0:21:44 - 0:21:48] ▶
But outside Earth, oh my God, so much.
[0:21:48 - 0:21:52] ▶
So I want to circle back to your original question
[0:21:52 - 0:21:55] ▶
of which hypotheses did we surface
[0:21:55 - 0:21:57] ▶
in the new science of UFO?
[0:21:57 - 0:21:59] ▶
Because we didn't finish going into them.
[0:21:59 - 0:22:01] ▶
We talk about erasing the difference
[0:22:01 - 0:22:06] ▶
between space and time
[0:22:06 - 0:22:08] ▶
because Einstein didn't think of them as separate.
[0:22:08 - 0:22:10] ▶
Time is just another dimension
[0:22:10 - 0:22:12] ▶
as valid as up, down, left, right, and so forth.
[0:22:12 - 0:22:16] ▶
And it's interesting in all of his field equations,
[0:22:17 - 0:22:20] ▶
time does not have to move in one direction.
[0:22:20 - 0:22:22] ▶
The laws of thermodynamics say it does,
[0:22:23 - 0:22:26] ▶
but there is no physical equation
[0:22:26 - 0:22:30] ▶
that says it has to.
[0:22:30 - 0:22:31] ▶
And we have some really weird laboratory phenomena
[0:22:31 - 0:22:35] ▶
and theoretical phenomena
[0:22:35 - 0:22:36] ▶
that suggest that time,
[0:22:36 - 0:22:38] ▶
there's this experiment called the quantum eraser.
[0:22:41 - 0:22:43] ▶
It's a famous three-slit experiment.
[0:22:43 - 0:22:45] ▶
And where you can do something in the present
[0:22:45 - 0:22:48] ▶
that influences which way a particle
[0:22:48 - 0:22:51] ▶
or wave behaved in the past.
[0:22:51 - 0:22:52] ▶
And then you have the whole business of non-locality,
[0:22:52 - 0:22:57] ▶
which has something in one part of the universe
[0:22:57 - 0:23:02] ▶
instantly or nearly instantly.
[0:23:02 - 0:23:04] ▶
We now know there's a speed to it,
[0:23:04 - 0:23:05] ▶
but it's faster than the speed of light,
[0:23:05 - 0:23:07] ▶
affects something on the other side.
[0:23:08 - 0:23:09] ▶
And then we have the whole area of quantum neuroscience,
[0:23:09 - 0:23:13] ▶
where is entanglement between quantum states
[0:23:14 - 0:23:17] ▶
in one person's brain or one part of the brain
[0:23:17 - 0:23:19] ▶
entangled in others in ways that affect or influence?
[0:23:19 - 0:23:24] ▶
Everyone assumes that if they're non-humans
[0:23:29 - 0:23:32] ▶
that it must be from outside Earth.
[0:23:34 - 0:23:36] ▶
And that may be true.
[0:23:36 - 0:23:37] ▶
But what if it weren't true?
[0:23:37 - 0:23:39] ▶
Let's start with that fork
[0:23:39 - 0:23:41] ▶
what happens if these things that we're seeing
[0:23:42 - 0:23:44] ▶
but either from the past,
[0:23:46 - 0:23:48] ▶
time travel backwards is impossible.
[0:23:51 - 0:23:53] ▶
in our current framework,
[0:23:54 - 0:23:57] ▶
most physicists would say that.
[0:23:57 - 0:23:59] ▶
there are these weird phenomena
[0:24:00 - 0:24:01] ▶
that we talk about in the book,
[0:24:01 - 0:24:02] ▶
like frame dragging,
[0:24:03 - 0:24:04] ▶
where if you have a black hole
[0:24:04 - 0:24:06] ▶
that's spinning really fast,
[0:24:06 - 0:24:07] ▶
a Schwarzschild black hole
[0:24:08 - 0:24:09] ▶
that's spinning really fast,
[0:24:09 - 0:24:10] ▶
the black hole itself isn't just spinning.
[0:24:11 - 0:24:12] ▶
It's spinning space-time with it.
[0:24:13 - 0:24:15] ▶
if you were orbiting
[0:24:17 - 0:24:18] ▶
outside the event horizon
[0:24:18 - 0:24:20] ▶
of a spinning black hole,
[0:24:20 - 0:24:22] ▶
there is this thing called
[0:24:23 - 0:24:25] ▶
the closed timelike curve,
[0:24:25 - 0:24:27] ▶
where when you started the orbit
[0:24:27 - 0:24:28] ▶
and you finished it,
[0:24:28 - 0:24:29] ▶
you'd end up at the same place in time.
[0:24:29 - 0:24:31] ▶
if you end up where you started,
[0:24:32 - 0:24:33] ▶
you went back in time.
[0:24:34 - 0:24:34] ▶
The math says that is theoretically
[0:24:35 - 0:24:37] ▶
And there's a distinction.
[0:24:39 - 0:24:40] ▶
you're going to hear this
[0:24:41 - 0:24:42] ▶
throughout our discussion
[0:24:42 - 0:24:44] ▶
of what we like to explore
[0:24:44 - 0:24:46] ▶
is the not impossible.
[0:24:46 - 0:24:47] ▶
that's where the answers are.
[0:24:49 - 0:24:50] ▶
to get back to this time thing,
[0:24:51 - 0:24:52] ▶
one of the things we explore
[0:24:53 - 0:24:55] ▶
advanced civilization
[0:24:59 - 0:25:00] ▶
hundreds of millions
[0:25:02 - 0:25:04] ▶
various environmental
[0:25:13 - 0:25:17] ▶
that we wouldn't necessarily
[0:25:17 - 0:25:18] ▶
depending on where it was
[0:25:24 - 0:25:25] ▶
has folded over on itself
[0:25:27 - 0:25:28] ▶
and got pushed under
[0:25:28 - 0:25:29] ▶
and blah, blah, blah.
[0:25:30 - 0:25:30] ▶
near-luminal travel,
[0:25:35 - 0:25:38] ▶
and we can get into that later,
[0:25:40 - 0:25:41] ▶
what are the possibilities
[0:25:42 - 0:25:43] ▶
for faster-than-light travel
[0:25:43 - 0:25:44] ▶
that aren't impossible?
[0:25:44 - 0:25:46] ▶
And where that takes you is
[0:25:47 - 0:25:49] ▶
could have zipped out
[0:25:51 - 0:25:52] ▶
only spend a few years
[0:25:54 - 0:25:55] ▶
a few hundred million years later.
[0:25:55 - 0:25:57] ▶
But is it impossible?
[0:26:02 - 0:26:03] ▶
to say that something's impossible
[0:26:06 - 0:26:08] ▶
when you look at the future,
[0:26:11 - 0:26:12] ▶
what about the present?
[0:26:15 - 0:26:16] ▶
There's some obvious
[0:26:16 - 0:26:17] ▶
mundane things like,
[0:26:17 - 0:26:18] ▶
the Chinese or the Russians
[0:26:19 - 0:26:20] ▶
we don't understand,
[0:26:20 - 0:26:21] ▶
the multi-worlds hypothesis
[0:26:28 - 0:26:29] ▶
that there are parallel
[0:26:29 - 0:26:30] ▶
that are splitting off
[0:26:31 - 0:26:33] ▶
And in some of those,
[0:26:34 - 0:26:35] ▶
some weird things happening?
[0:26:35 - 0:26:36] ▶
That one gets a little
[0:26:37 - 0:26:38] ▶
the more important thing
[0:26:42 - 0:26:44] ▶
break out of the chains
[0:26:44 - 0:26:47] ▶
of anecdotal evidence,
[0:27:07 - 0:27:09] ▶
but it didn't comport
[0:27:09 - 0:27:10] ▶
And the people just saying,
[0:27:17 - 0:27:18] ▶
and look at the anomaly
[0:27:19 - 0:27:20] ▶
to explain the anomaly.
[0:27:25 - 0:27:27] ▶
and the extraterrestrial bias
[0:27:32 - 0:27:34] ▶
North Sentinel Island,
[0:27:38 - 0:27:40] ▶
which is this remote island
[0:27:40 - 0:27:41] ▶
that's totally uncontacted,
[0:27:41 - 0:27:43] ▶
has never been contacted
[0:27:48 - 0:27:49] ▶
outside of a few missionaries
[0:27:49 - 0:27:50] ▶
to evangelize Christianity.
[0:27:53 - 0:27:54] ▶
I think in certain cases
[0:27:57 - 0:27:58] ▶
have met tragic ends.
[0:27:58 - 0:27:59] ▶
shot with a bow and arrow.
[0:28:02 - 0:28:03] ▶
do the North Sentinelese
[0:28:07 - 0:28:08] ▶
coming and contacting them
[0:28:10 - 0:28:12] ▶
human beings nearby?
[0:28:14 - 0:28:15] ▶
cuts to this perceptual bias
[0:28:17 - 0:28:18] ▶
and to the time travel thing,
[0:28:18 - 0:28:20] ▶
Kurt Gödel had this,
[0:28:20 - 0:28:22] ▶
model for time travel
[0:28:22 - 0:28:23] ▶
who is a contemporary
[0:28:26 - 0:28:27] ▶
the Gödel time travel model
[0:28:30 - 0:28:32] ▶
called the Tipler disc
[0:28:34 - 0:28:35] ▶
and it's a flying saucer.
[0:28:35 - 0:28:37] ▶
So I find that fascinating too.
[0:28:37 - 0:28:39] ▶
that self is studying it,
[0:28:49 - 0:28:51] ▶
To look at that instrument
[0:28:53 - 0:28:54] ▶
about its limitations
[0:28:56 - 0:28:57] ▶
isn't seeing something,
[0:29:04 - 0:29:05] ▶
could be interpreted
[0:29:05 - 0:29:06] ▶
as the thing isn't there
[0:29:06 - 0:29:07] ▶
And there's too little
[0:29:10 - 0:29:11] ▶
of that kind of thinking.
[0:29:11 - 0:29:13] ▶
And I'll just give you
[0:29:13 - 0:29:15] ▶
particle-antiparticle pairs
[0:29:23 - 0:29:25] ▶
There is no such thing
[0:29:35 - 0:29:36] ▶
and these particle-antiparticle pairs
[0:29:39 - 0:29:42] ▶
where the matter-antimatter
[0:29:47 - 0:29:48] ▶
completely annihilate,
[0:29:48 - 0:29:49] ▶
leaving some residual energy,
[0:29:49 - 0:29:51] ▶
which is one of the theories
[0:29:51 - 0:29:53] ▶
And if these particle-antiparticle pairs
[0:29:55 - 0:29:58] ▶
pop out of nothingness
[0:29:58 - 0:30:01] ▶
of the event horizon,
[0:30:02 - 0:30:03] ▶
some of the energy escapes,
[0:30:04 - 0:30:07] ▶
which is why there is a glow
[0:30:07 - 0:30:09] ▶
or hawking radiation
[0:30:09 - 0:30:10] ▶
evaporate over time.
[0:30:14 - 0:30:15] ▶
some loss-of-information paradoxes
[0:30:17 - 0:30:20] ▶
or destroy information
[0:30:23 - 0:30:24] ▶
in the physics sense.
[0:30:24 - 0:30:26] ▶
And maybe this is how
[0:30:26 - 0:30:27] ▶
And through entanglement,
[0:30:29 - 0:30:30] ▶
Well, the point I'm trying
[0:30:31 - 0:30:32] ▶
let's suppose that we live
[0:30:33 - 0:30:35] ▶
in an n-dimensional universe,
[0:30:35 - 0:30:36] ▶
but there are many more.
[0:30:37 - 0:30:38] ▶
So imagine the analogy
[0:30:39 - 0:30:41] ▶
of a three-dimensional universe
[0:30:41 - 0:30:43] ▶
interacting with someone
[0:30:43 - 0:30:45] ▶
There would be lines, right?
[0:30:51 - 0:30:52] ▶
I'm a three-dimensional person,
[0:30:53 - 0:30:56] ▶
and I have the surface
[0:30:56 - 0:30:58] ▶
which is two dimensions,
[0:30:59 - 0:30:59] ▶
and I put my five fingers,
[0:31:00 - 0:31:02] ▶
and one thumb through it.
[0:31:03 - 0:31:04] ▶
The two-dimensional being
[0:31:04 - 0:31:05] ▶
is going to experience me
[0:31:05 - 0:31:07] ▶
because that's where
[0:31:08 - 0:31:10] ▶
I intersect its reality.
[0:31:10 - 0:31:13] ▶
So when you look at these
[0:31:14 - 0:31:15] ▶
that could be something
[0:31:18 - 0:31:20] ▶
and there was something
[0:31:23 - 0:31:26] ▶
circling that hit us
[0:31:26 - 0:31:27] ▶
We would see it pop in
[0:31:28 - 0:31:29] ▶
But it's only because
[0:31:29 - 0:31:31] ▶
the three-dimensional reality.
[0:31:32 - 0:31:33] ▶
the two-dimensional reality
[0:31:34 - 0:31:35] ▶
of something popping in
[0:31:35 - 0:31:36] ▶
And so that is where
[0:31:38 - 0:31:39] ▶
if we relax the assumption
[0:31:39 - 0:31:42] ▶
that there are four dimensions,
[0:31:42 - 0:31:43] ▶
whatever a dimension is,
[0:31:43 - 0:31:45] ▶
like something moving
[0:31:49 - 0:31:51] ▶
Yes, in three dimensions
[0:31:53 - 0:31:55] ▶
that could be impossible.
[0:31:55 - 0:31:56] ▶
But in five or six or seven,
[0:31:56 - 0:31:59] ▶
it could be totally possible.
[0:31:59 - 0:32:00] ▶
we really have to open up
[0:32:01 - 0:32:03] ▶
when we look at UFOs.
[0:32:04 - 0:32:05] ▶
says our framework is wrong.
[0:32:11 - 0:32:13] ▶
Extending your telomeres,
[0:32:18 - 0:32:19] ▶
metabolic optimization,
[0:32:20 - 0:32:21] ▶
and the through line
[0:32:21 - 0:32:22] ▶
Most of what determines
[0:32:24 - 0:32:25] ▶
comes down to really
[0:32:26 - 0:32:27] ▶
not these more exotic treatments.
[0:32:28 - 0:32:30] ▶
I think about that sometimes
[0:32:30 - 0:32:32] ▶
when I realize it's 10 p.m.
[0:32:32 - 0:32:33] ▶
and I haven't eaten all day
[0:32:33 - 0:32:35] ▶
because I was deep in prep
[0:32:35 - 0:32:36] ▶
for the next episode,
[0:32:36 - 0:32:38] ▶
which is kind of the story
[0:32:38 - 0:32:39] ▶
since I moved to Austin.
[0:32:39 - 0:32:40] ▶
I'll be so deep in work
[0:32:41 - 0:32:42] ▶
that I'll forget to eat
[0:32:42 - 0:32:43] ▶
and then I end up demolishing
[0:32:43 - 0:32:45] ▶
this solution is amazing.
[0:32:47 - 0:32:49] ▶
for anyone who's busy.
[0:32:50 - 0:32:51] ▶
and they're actually
[0:32:55 - 0:32:56] ▶
made with real food.
[0:32:56 - 0:32:57] ▶
and it is embarrassingly simple.
[0:33:06 - 0:33:07] ▶
I'm not a great chef.
[0:33:08 - 0:33:09] ▶
I don't like overspending
[0:33:09 - 0:33:10] ▶
every day on delivery.
[0:33:10 - 0:33:11] ▶
why I waited so long
[0:33:13 - 0:33:14] ▶
Head to factormeals.com
[0:33:14 - 0:33:17] ▶
The offer is only valid
[0:33:29 - 0:33:30] ▶
for new Factor customers
[0:33:30 - 0:33:32] ▶
doing an auto-renewing
[0:33:32 - 0:33:33] ▶
subscription purchase.
[0:33:33 - 0:33:34] ▶
Do yourself a favor now,
[0:33:35 - 0:33:36] ▶
make healthier eating
[0:33:36 - 0:33:37] ▶
Our framework is wrong.
[0:33:39 - 0:33:41] ▶
We're seeing something real.
[0:33:41 - 0:33:43] ▶
We don't understand it,
[0:33:43 - 0:33:45] ▶
so we better start questioning
[0:33:45 - 0:33:47] ▶
our whole understanding
[0:33:47 - 0:33:48] ▶
There's a really cool
[0:33:50 - 0:33:51] ▶
professor named James Madden
[0:33:51 - 0:33:52] ▶
called Unidentified Hyperobjects.
[0:33:53 - 0:33:56] ▶
Hyperobject is a platonic idea
[0:33:56 - 0:33:58] ▶
of objects that exist
[0:33:58 - 0:34:00] ▶
in higher dimensional space
[0:34:00 - 0:34:01] ▶
the shadow of these tesseracts.
[0:34:04 - 0:34:06] ▶
If you take this pen,
[0:34:06 - 0:34:08] ▶
you put it through 2D paper,
[0:34:08 - 0:34:10] ▶
all you see is a disk.
[0:34:10 - 0:34:12] ▶
it's like these objects
[0:34:15 - 0:34:17] ▶
almost break your priors,
[0:34:19 - 0:34:21] ▶
that is on the human side
[0:34:24 - 0:34:27] ▶
is the intended effect.
[0:34:27 - 0:34:28] ▶
There is some sort of
[0:34:29 - 0:34:31] ▶
almost intermittent reinforcement
[0:34:31 - 0:34:33] ▶
or conditioning going on
[0:34:33 - 0:34:35] ▶
and then you keep going
[0:34:39 - 0:34:40] ▶
And it's this sort of
[0:34:41 - 0:34:42] ▶
synchronistic thing.
[0:34:42 - 0:34:43] ▶
would do in traditional science.
[0:34:50 - 0:34:51] ▶
it's fascinating about that.
[0:34:53 - 0:34:54] ▶
to something Dr. Gilbert
[0:34:54 - 0:34:55] ▶
tell a patient anything.
[0:35:04 - 0:35:05] ▶
get it in their gut.
[0:35:09 - 0:35:11] ▶
People only understand
[0:35:11 - 0:35:12] ▶
themselves discover.
[0:35:13 - 0:35:14] ▶
You can't tell people anything.
[0:35:14 - 0:35:16] ▶
There's this great book
[0:35:16 - 0:35:17] ▶
If You See the Buddha
[0:35:17 - 0:35:18] ▶
No one can tell you anything.
[0:35:19 - 0:35:21] ▶
You have to discover it
[0:35:21 - 0:35:22] ▶
So what if extraterrestrials
[0:35:22 - 0:35:25] ▶
are here to teach us?
[0:35:25 - 0:35:26] ▶
This is their mission.
[0:35:27 - 0:35:28] ▶
a galactic federation
[0:35:34 - 0:35:35] ▶
are altruistic missionaries
[0:35:36 - 0:35:37] ▶
that they keep introducing
[0:35:41 - 0:35:43] ▶
There's something over here
[0:35:45 - 0:35:46] ▶
Like maybe there are
[0:35:49 - 0:35:50] ▶
and we're going to keep
[0:35:51 - 0:35:52] ▶
hitting you with these things
[0:35:52 - 0:35:53] ▶
maybe this is telling us
[0:35:55 - 0:35:57] ▶
about our own ignorance
[0:35:57 - 0:35:58] ▶
I'm not saying that's a case,
[0:36:00 - 0:36:02] ▶
normally think about
[0:36:04 - 0:36:07] ▶
It's like in Star Trek,
[0:36:09 - 0:36:10] ▶
the prime directive,
[0:36:10 - 0:36:11] ▶
if you're pre-warp drive
[0:36:14 - 0:36:15] ▶
to a certain consciousness
[0:36:16 - 0:36:17] ▶
with a little wow factor.
[0:36:29 - 0:36:31] ▶
They tell their friends,
[0:36:31 - 0:36:32] ▶
and then it's sort of
[0:36:33 - 0:36:33] ▶
with these little appearances.
[0:36:38 - 0:36:40] ▶
We'll get into this later
[0:36:41 - 0:36:42] ▶
a hyper-intelligent entity
[0:36:45 - 0:36:46] ▶
to have a very light touch
[0:36:48 - 0:36:49] ▶
because the universe
[0:36:49 - 0:36:51] ▶
and the slightest thing
[0:36:52 - 0:36:54] ▶
could have a huge effect there.
[0:36:54 - 0:36:56] ▶
And so this creature
[0:36:56 - 0:36:59] ▶
they want to happen.
[0:37:04 - 0:37:05] ▶
some of that in our book,
[0:37:07 - 0:37:09] ▶
just to kind of summarize
[0:37:12 - 0:37:13] ▶
the new science of UFOs,
[0:37:13 - 0:37:15] ▶
what we try to do in there
[0:37:15 - 0:37:18] ▶
they've never been before
[0:37:22 - 0:37:23] ▶
and also to expose people
[0:37:23 - 0:37:25] ▶
not to the James Bond
[0:37:25 - 0:37:27] ▶
of the spy business,
[0:37:28 - 0:37:29] ▶
intellectual side of it,
[0:37:33 - 0:37:34] ▶
that collect the information,
[0:37:36 - 0:37:37] ▶
at intelligence failures,
[0:37:41 - 0:37:43] ▶
the Indian nuclear program,
[0:37:48 - 0:37:50] ▶
We just didn't have the data.
[0:37:51 - 0:37:53] ▶
But in every other case,
[0:37:53 - 0:37:54] ▶
we've had the information.
[0:37:54 - 0:37:55] ▶
that's why this whole
[0:38:01 - 0:38:02] ▶
I don't know if you saw this,
[0:38:03 - 0:38:04] ▶
if you guys have a take there,
[0:38:09 - 0:38:10] ▶
is kind of a misnomer
[0:38:13 - 0:38:14] ▶
there's a ton of data,
[0:38:17 - 0:38:18] ▶
there's a ton of asymmetric data
[0:38:19 - 0:38:20] ▶
on the government side,
[0:38:20 - 0:38:21] ▶
but the sense-making
[0:38:21 - 0:38:22] ▶
it's like finding a needle
[0:38:30 - 0:38:31] ▶
if you can't make sense
[0:38:35 - 0:38:37] ▶
good luck with UFOs.
[0:38:41 - 0:38:43] ▶
is going to help that.
[0:38:44 - 0:38:45] ▶
that the biggest problem
[0:38:47 - 0:38:48] ▶
in the intelligence world
[0:38:48 - 0:38:49] ▶
what you've collected.
[0:38:52 - 0:38:53] ▶
there's so many reasons
[0:38:55 - 0:38:56] ▶
Goes up exponentially
[0:39:00 - 0:39:00] ▶
information out there.
[0:39:03 - 0:39:04] ▶
so the real frontier
[0:39:07 - 0:39:08] ▶
is trained by humans.
[0:39:13 - 0:39:15] ▶
is trained by humans
[0:39:17 - 0:39:18] ▶
it's not going to see
[0:39:22 - 0:39:24] ▶
So it will miss it also.
[0:39:28 - 0:39:30] ▶
if that low sample size
[0:39:32 - 0:39:34] ▶
is going to mistake something,
[0:39:36 - 0:39:37] ▶
then at high sample size
[0:39:37 - 0:39:38] ▶
it's still going to mistake it.
[0:39:38 - 0:39:39] ▶
And you need some sort
[0:39:40 - 0:39:41] ▶
and then you train up
[0:39:48 - 0:39:49] ▶
the model or something.
[0:39:49 - 0:39:51] ▶
intelligence analyst
[0:39:53 - 0:39:54] ▶
be aware of their own biases.
[0:39:58 - 0:39:59] ▶
There's this great book
[0:40:00 - 0:40:00] ▶
of Intelligence Analysis
[0:40:01 - 0:40:03] ▶
are taught to read it.
[0:40:05 - 0:40:07] ▶
It's part of our training.
[0:40:07 - 0:40:08] ▶
at our own instrument
[0:40:09 - 0:40:10] ▶
all the different biases,
[0:40:11 - 0:40:12] ▶
a million miles an hour
[0:40:23 - 0:40:24] ▶
instead of 200 miles an hour,
[0:40:24 - 0:40:26] ▶
but it's still a Ferrari.
[0:40:26 - 0:40:27] ▶
it's not going to go into the air
[0:40:28 - 0:40:29] ▶
or go below the water.
[0:40:29 - 0:40:31] ▶
And there are things like,
[0:40:32 - 0:40:33] ▶
Time to me is so interesting
[0:40:34 - 0:40:36] ▶
because it's like the,
[0:40:36 - 0:40:38] ▶
there's a David Foster Wallace speech
[0:40:39 - 0:40:41] ▶
talking to each other
[0:40:43 - 0:40:44] ▶
to conceptualize water,
[0:40:46 - 0:40:47] ▶
but water is the medium
[0:40:47 - 0:40:48] ▶
And that feels like time
[0:40:49 - 0:40:50] ▶
It's the most used noun
[0:40:51 - 0:40:52] ▶
in the English language.
[0:40:52 - 0:40:54] ▶
the movement of bodies
[0:41:00 - 0:41:01] ▶
and then microscopically,
[0:41:01 - 0:41:02] ▶
oscillations on an electromagnetic wave.
[0:41:03 - 0:41:06] ▶
And you get into things
[0:41:06 - 0:41:08] ▶
Einstein's equations
[0:41:10 - 0:41:10] ▶
or even Maxwell's equations,
[0:41:10 - 0:41:12] ▶
forwards as they do backwards.
[0:41:14 - 0:41:15] ▶
you have time treated
[0:41:18 - 0:41:21] ▶
or as a classical axiom,
[0:41:22 - 0:41:23] ▶
in Schrodinger's equation.
[0:41:24 - 0:41:25] ▶
but there's all sorts
[0:41:27 - 0:41:28] ▶
of possible time weirdness
[0:41:28 - 0:41:29] ▶
in certain quantum interpretations.
[0:41:29 - 0:41:30] ▶
Obviously of temporal non-locality.
[0:41:31 - 0:41:33] ▶
that seems like a very interesting foray
[0:41:34 - 0:41:36] ▶
spawned a matter universe,
[0:41:44 - 0:41:47] ▶
which went one direction in time
[0:41:47 - 0:41:50] ▶
and a simultaneous equal one,
[0:41:50 - 0:41:52] ▶
an anti-matter universe
[0:41:53 - 0:41:54] ▶
going in the other direction in time.
[0:41:54 - 0:41:56] ▶
I don't know who is,
[0:41:58 - 0:41:59] ▶
I just remember reading that
[0:41:59 - 0:42:01] ▶
and there are other theories.
[0:42:01 - 0:42:02] ▶
We live inside this huge,
[0:42:02 - 0:42:03] ▶
supermassive black hole
[0:42:04 - 0:42:05] ▶
and there's some weird paradoxes
[0:42:05 - 0:42:06] ▶
like the more massive the black hole,
[0:42:06 - 0:42:08] ▶
the less likely tidal forces
[0:42:08 - 0:42:10] ▶
will stretch you apart.
[0:42:10 - 0:42:11] ▶
The math is very complicated,
[0:42:12 - 0:42:13] ▶
what we call the universe
[0:42:16 - 0:42:17] ▶
inside this big black hole
[0:42:18 - 0:42:19] ▶
and how would we know?
[0:42:19 - 0:42:20] ▶
I think that at the end of the day,
[0:42:21 - 0:42:24] ▶
if we ever know the truth,
[0:42:24 - 0:42:25] ▶
which I don't think we will.
[0:42:25 - 0:42:26] ▶
this is a conversation
[0:42:27 - 0:42:28] ▶
I had with Marvin Minsky.
[0:42:28 - 0:42:29] ▶
is kind of the godfather
[0:42:35 - 0:42:36] ▶
of modern artificial intelligence.
[0:42:36 - 0:42:38] ▶
And I knew him quite well
[0:42:39 - 0:42:40] ▶
and I love kind of BSing with him
[0:42:40 - 0:42:44] ▶
kind of like you did in the dorm,
[0:42:46 - 0:42:47] ▶
when you were a freshman,
[0:42:48 - 0:42:49] ▶
this thing's all connected,
[0:42:50 - 0:42:51] ▶
capable of understanding nature
[0:42:57 - 0:42:58] ▶
I'll give you an example.
[0:43:01 - 0:43:02] ▶
or have even ever heard of.
[0:43:05 - 0:43:07] ▶
I'll never teach it French.
[0:43:08 - 0:43:09] ▶
that at whatever level
[0:43:24 - 0:43:26] ▶
to understand nature.
[0:43:28 - 0:43:29] ▶
are like way smarter
[0:43:37 - 0:43:39] ▶
than we ever thought
[0:43:39 - 0:43:39] ▶
a crow will remember
[0:43:42 - 0:43:43] ▶
your face for two decades
[0:43:43 - 0:43:44] ▶
if you pissed it off.
[0:43:45 - 0:43:46] ▶
than we think they are.
[0:43:49 - 0:43:49] ▶
But do we really think
[0:43:50 - 0:43:51] ▶
partial differential equations
[0:43:52 - 0:43:53] ▶
that there's way more
[0:43:59 - 0:44:00] ▶
could ever comprehend.
[0:44:02 - 0:44:03] ▶
that's the exciting thing
[0:44:05 - 0:44:07] ▶
And Isaac Asimov said,
[0:44:13 - 0:44:16] ▶
science doesn't proceed
[0:44:16 - 0:44:17] ▶
you get this great insight.
[0:44:19 - 0:44:20] ▶
because that's funny
[0:44:25 - 0:44:27] ▶
And whenever you see
[0:44:30 - 0:44:31] ▶
something that doesn't
[0:44:31 - 0:44:33] ▶
But as Max Planck said,
[0:44:38 - 0:44:40] ▶
one funeral at a time.
[0:44:41 - 0:44:43] ▶
accepting that caveat
[0:44:46 - 0:44:47] ▶
having epistemic humility,
[0:44:48 - 0:44:50] ▶
survey level overview.
[0:44:53 - 0:44:54] ▶
for what's going on,
[0:44:57 - 0:44:58] ▶
all the many thousands
[0:45:05 - 0:45:06] ▶
and we've looked at all,
[0:45:07 - 0:45:08] ▶
inside the government.
[0:45:10 - 0:45:11] ▶
where I feel confident
[0:45:22 - 0:45:23] ▶
something real there.
[0:45:24 - 0:45:25] ▶
It's not an artifact
[0:45:26 - 0:45:28] ▶
we do not understand.
[0:45:33 - 0:45:34] ▶
so passionate about this.
[0:45:39 - 0:45:41] ▶
Because as scientists,
[0:45:41 - 0:45:42] ▶
We are not repelled by it.
[0:45:46 - 0:45:48] ▶
I guess I shouldn't say this,
[0:45:50 - 0:45:52] ▶
to get serious scientists
[0:45:55 - 0:45:57] ▶
to take a look at this.
[0:45:57 - 0:45:58] ▶
the world's best scientists,
[0:46:08 - 0:46:09] ▶
with a few exceptions,
[0:46:10 - 0:46:11] ▶
like Levy and Harvard
[0:46:11 - 0:46:12] ▶
and places like that,
[0:46:12 - 0:46:13] ▶
they're staying away from it
[0:46:14 - 0:46:16] ▶
because it's a career killer.
[0:46:16 - 0:46:17] ▶
That's what it seems like.
[0:46:18 - 0:46:19] ▶
in the U.S. government
[0:46:25 - 0:46:25] ▶
when it came to science.
[0:46:25 - 0:46:27] ▶
the CTO of the country.
[0:46:27 - 0:46:28] ▶
if you've seen this,
[0:46:30 - 0:46:31] ▶
The Age of Disclosure,
[0:46:31 - 0:46:32] ▶
who is Deputy Assistant
[0:46:39 - 0:46:40] ▶
Secretary of Defense
[0:46:40 - 0:46:42] ▶
to do a lot of stuff.
[0:46:44 - 0:46:45] ▶
engineering this stuff.
[0:46:48 - 0:46:49] ▶
to a whole lot of stuff.
[0:46:59 - 0:46:59] ▶
I never saw anything
[0:47:01 - 0:47:02] ▶
I don't have any illusions
[0:47:23 - 0:47:25] ▶
everything that I did.
[0:47:27 - 0:47:29] ▶
that people hide things.
[0:47:30 - 0:47:32] ▶
the fact that I didn't know
[0:47:33 - 0:47:35] ▶
this is a fascinating thing.
[0:47:37 - 0:47:38] ▶
Your average lay person,
[0:47:39 - 0:47:40] ▶
the government saying,
[0:47:41 - 0:47:42] ▶
we're not going to release
[0:47:42 - 0:47:42] ▶
because they don't want us
[0:47:44 - 0:47:45] ▶
to know about aliens.
[0:47:45 - 0:47:45] ▶
But they don't think
[0:47:46 - 0:47:46] ▶
about other motivations.
[0:47:46 - 0:47:47] ▶
Because we don't want
[0:47:57 - 0:47:58] ▶
the adversary to know,
[0:47:58 - 0:47:59] ▶
sources and methods.
[0:48:02 - 0:48:03] ▶
And in the intelligence world,
[0:48:04 - 0:48:05] ▶
that's what we protect
[0:48:05 - 0:48:06] ▶
We can't let the adversary
[0:48:07 - 0:48:09] ▶
that some of the reluctance
[0:48:13 - 0:48:14] ▶
to release some of the stuff,
[0:48:14 - 0:48:15] ▶
by a collection system
[0:48:16 - 0:48:17] ▶
people to know we have.
[0:48:18 - 0:48:19] ▶
They can see farther,
[0:48:21 - 0:48:22] ▶
that they didn't know
[0:48:24 - 0:48:24] ▶
And I think some of the
[0:48:26 - 0:48:27] ▶
data captures have been
[0:48:27 - 0:48:29] ▶
through those kind of systems.
[0:48:29 - 0:48:30] ▶
And that just to reveal
[0:48:31 - 0:48:33] ▶
I feel quite certain
[0:48:37 - 0:48:39] ▶
that makes total sense.
[0:48:41 - 0:48:42] ▶
around laser holography.
[0:48:45 - 0:48:47] ▶
at the possibilities,
[0:48:50 - 0:48:52] ▶
from first principles
[0:48:55 - 0:48:56] ▶
If something is moving
[0:48:56 - 0:48:57] ▶
with a super acceleration,
[0:48:59 - 0:49:01] ▶
the most fundamental
[0:49:01 - 0:49:02] ▶
Force equals mass time
[0:49:05 - 0:49:06] ▶
There's an unbelievable
[0:49:14 - 0:49:15] ▶
or there's very low mass,
[0:49:16 - 0:49:18] ▶
when I was at Disney,
[0:49:22 - 0:49:23] ▶
electronic fireworks.
[0:49:24 - 0:49:26] ▶
And the way we did it
[0:49:26 - 0:49:27] ▶
a Q-switch neodymium
[0:49:29 - 0:49:31] ▶
it around with mirrors
[0:49:43 - 0:49:44] ▶
or like anything else.
[0:49:51 - 0:49:52] ▶
Those little plasmas
[0:49:54 - 0:49:55] ▶
that has essentially
[0:50:04 - 0:50:05] ▶
we look at in the book,
[0:50:12 - 0:50:13] ▶
consciously going about
[0:50:13 - 0:50:15] ▶
For whatever reason,
[0:50:18 - 0:50:19] ▶
do this all the time.
[0:50:20 - 0:50:21] ▶
that we never thought
[0:50:24 - 0:50:25] ▶
if you wanted to fake
[0:50:38 - 0:50:38] ▶
how would you do it?
[0:50:39 - 0:50:40] ▶
by a little teeny drone.
[0:50:47 - 0:50:48] ▶
when in fact it wasn't.
[0:50:50 - 0:50:51] ▶
all the ways of fake,
[0:50:53 - 0:50:53] ▶
that are being directed
[0:51:02 - 0:51:02] ▶
there's a Navy patent
[0:51:04 - 0:51:05] ▶
these orbs are doing.
[0:51:17 - 0:51:19] ▶
breaking conservation
[0:51:20 - 0:51:21] ▶
but it's just massless.
[0:51:22 - 0:51:23] ▶
If something is moving
[0:51:24 - 0:51:25] ▶
Maybe it doesn't have mass.
[0:51:28 - 0:51:29] ▶
Maybe that's the way
[0:51:29 - 0:51:30] ▶
if you were to look at,
[0:51:32 - 0:51:33] ▶
the Nimitz 2004 case,
[0:51:33 - 0:51:35] ▶
which I know you guys
[0:51:35 - 0:51:36] ▶
are pretty familiar with.
[0:51:36 - 0:51:37] ▶
Nimitz off the coast
[0:51:44 - 0:51:45] ▶
solar carrier strike group,
[0:51:46 - 0:51:47] ▶
eyewitness observation,
[0:51:50 - 0:51:52] ▶
that's been released,
[0:51:54 - 0:51:55] ▶
this forward-looking
[0:51:55 - 0:51:56] ▶
plasma ball configuration
[0:52:01 - 0:52:03] ▶
of energy like this.
[0:52:41 - 0:52:42] ▶
look like a tic-tac.
[0:52:43 - 0:52:44] ▶
atmospheric scattering
[0:52:46 - 0:52:47] ▶
because they define it.
[0:52:53 - 0:52:55] ▶
Under normal conditions,
[0:52:59 - 0:53:01] ▶
wouldn't look that way.
[0:53:02 - 0:53:03] ▶
are louder than hell.
[0:53:04 - 0:53:05] ▶
It's really impressive
[0:53:14 - 0:53:15] ▶
but we're not doing this.
[0:53:15 - 0:53:16] ▶
profoundly disturbing
[0:53:18 - 0:53:19] ▶
stimulate our guests
[0:53:23 - 0:53:24] ▶
And it's really loud.
[0:53:27 - 0:53:28] ▶
what we do in the book
[0:53:39 - 0:53:40] ▶
But that sounds like
[0:53:40 - 0:53:40] ▶
a pretty good capability
[0:53:40 - 0:53:41] ▶
some plasma projection
[0:53:52 - 0:53:54] ▶
and things like that.
[0:53:55 - 0:53:56] ▶
to the faking theory.
[0:53:58 - 0:54:00] ▶
Someone isn't doing it
[0:54:00 - 0:54:01] ▶
and you're noticing it.
[0:54:01 - 0:54:02] ▶
They're doing it on purpose
[0:54:03 - 0:54:04] ▶
to mess with your head.
[0:54:04 - 0:54:05] ▶
really do a lot of this.
[0:54:07 - 0:54:09] ▶
but man who uses them
[0:54:13 - 0:54:15] ▶
You defeat their brain
[0:54:18 - 0:54:20] ▶
You erode their will
[0:54:22 - 0:54:23] ▶
The Russians know this.
[0:54:24 - 0:54:25] ▶
the resources we do.
[0:54:26 - 0:54:27] ▶
So one of the things
[0:54:27 - 0:54:28] ▶
they do is make us think
[0:54:28 - 0:54:30] ▶
that make us think twice
[0:54:30 - 0:54:32] ▶
about messing with them.
[0:54:32 - 0:54:33] ▶
I'm saying it would be
[0:54:37 - 0:54:38] ▶
consistent with their
[0:54:38 - 0:54:39] ▶
there's no one better
[0:54:44 - 0:54:45] ▶
Bozov and the laser,
[0:54:48 - 0:54:49] ▶
and they are really good
[0:54:51 - 0:54:53] ▶
that's what Havana syndrome
[0:54:54 - 0:54:55] ▶
that some of these phenomena
[0:55:00 - 0:55:03] ▶
deliberately messing
[0:55:04 - 0:55:05] ▶
Kissinger is talking
[0:55:13 - 0:55:14] ▶
stop beaming our embassy
[0:55:19 - 0:55:20] ▶
who's the American ambassador,
[0:55:27 - 0:55:28] ▶
not only hurt by this,
[0:55:30 - 0:55:31] ▶
form of blood cancer.
[0:55:33 - 0:55:34] ▶
And so if that's going on
[0:55:34 - 0:55:36] ▶
and then it feels like
[0:55:37 - 0:55:38] ▶
honestly gaslighting
[0:55:39 - 0:55:40] ▶
who are stationed abroad
[0:55:45 - 0:55:46] ▶
who are experiencing
[0:55:46 - 0:55:46] ▶
they're consistently
[0:55:47 - 0:55:49] ▶
called psychosomatic
[0:55:49 - 0:55:50] ▶
we're deep into that.
[0:56:00 - 0:56:02] ▶
I can't say exactly,
[0:56:03 - 0:56:04] ▶
part of that investigation,
[0:56:05 - 0:56:06] ▶
and so is Dr. Gilbert.
[0:56:06 - 0:56:07] ▶
we've been interviewing
[0:56:08 - 0:56:08] ▶
victims of Havana syndrome,
[0:56:08 - 0:56:11] ▶
and it's spectacular
[0:56:11 - 0:56:13] ▶
because nobody understands
[0:56:13 - 0:56:16] ▶
that there are a series
[0:56:16 - 0:56:18] ▶
that are all linked together
[0:56:19 - 0:56:20] ▶
that people don't understand
[0:56:20 - 0:56:22] ▶
that are just unique,
[0:56:22 - 0:56:23] ▶
but there are a lot of,
[0:56:23 - 0:56:25] ▶
there are like over 1,000
[0:56:25 - 0:56:27] ▶
from State Department
[0:56:29 - 0:56:30] ▶
and other American personnel,
[0:56:30 - 0:56:32] ▶
there are family members,
[0:56:33 - 0:56:34] ▶
there are children also
[0:56:34 - 0:56:36] ▶
anomalous health incidents now,
[0:56:38 - 0:56:41] ▶
which is Havana syndrome,
[0:56:44 - 0:56:45] ▶
and people are usually
[0:56:46 - 0:56:47] ▶
they're in great physical shape,
[0:56:50 - 0:56:52] ▶
started when they were
[0:56:55 - 0:56:57] ▶
and there are a lot of them
[0:57:04 - 0:57:05] ▶
in the United States
[0:57:05 - 0:57:06] ▶
and near the White House also,
[0:57:06 - 0:57:08] ▶
and people are staying
[0:57:09 - 0:57:10] ▶
puzzling combinations
[0:57:17 - 0:57:19] ▶
that we've never seen before,
[0:57:20 - 0:57:21] ▶
so a few people described
[0:57:22 - 0:57:24] ▶
combination of dizziness,
[0:57:25 - 0:57:27] ▶
very directional sounds
[0:57:31 - 0:57:34] ▶
from a specific location,
[0:57:35 - 0:57:37] ▶
and symptoms disappear
[0:57:39 - 0:57:41] ▶
when victims leave the room,
[0:57:41 - 0:57:43] ▶
when victims re-enter the room,
[0:57:44 - 0:57:46] ▶
and some Havana syndrome victims
[0:57:47 - 0:57:50] ▶
like memory problems
[0:57:54 - 0:57:55] ▶
and slow processing speed,
[0:57:55 - 0:57:57] ▶
and sometimes depression,
[0:58:04 - 0:58:05] ▶
could not understand
[0:58:07 - 0:58:10] ▶
ENT specialists found
[0:58:14 - 0:58:15] ▶
that it's the otolith
[0:58:15 - 0:58:17] ▶
inside the inner ear
[0:58:17 - 0:58:19] ▶
in most of those cases,
[0:58:22 - 0:58:23] ▶
What is it in the inner ear?
[0:58:25 - 0:58:26] ▶
inside the inner ear
[0:58:32 - 0:58:33] ▶
that are responsible
[0:58:33 - 0:58:35] ▶
and those get disrupted,
[0:58:36 - 0:58:38] ▶
and it's very difficult
[0:58:38 - 0:58:40] ▶
and they can't find anything.
[0:58:45 - 0:58:47] ▶
It's only when you study
[0:58:47 - 0:58:49] ▶
the otolith of the ears,
[0:58:49 - 0:58:50] ▶
Well, that's the one
[0:58:51 - 0:58:52] ▶
that seems to be in common
[0:58:54 - 0:58:56] ▶
I have to be careful
[0:58:58 - 0:58:59] ▶
within the community,
[0:59:06 - 0:59:07] ▶
the intelligence community,
[0:59:08 - 0:59:09] ▶
on what was going on.
[0:59:09 - 0:59:10] ▶
You had one side saying,
[0:59:10 - 0:59:12] ▶
and we know what it is
[0:59:13 - 0:59:14] ▶
with very high likelihood,
[0:59:14 - 0:59:15] ▶
And then you had the other,
[0:59:17 - 0:59:18] ▶
which was the official version,
[0:59:18 - 0:59:19] ▶
is there's no there,
[0:59:19 - 0:59:20] ▶
nothing to see here, folks.
[0:59:20 - 0:59:21] ▶
who were tightly connected
[0:59:24 - 0:59:25] ▶
Well, you saw Dr. Relman,
[0:59:31 - 0:59:32] ▶
I think he said it best.
[0:59:37 - 0:59:39] ▶
I really talk about,
[0:59:42 - 0:59:43] ▶
of how that could happen.
[0:59:44 - 0:59:45] ▶
in the intelligence community,
[0:59:48 - 0:59:49] ▶
State Department and CIA,
[0:59:50 - 0:59:51] ▶
who say there's nothing,
[0:59:51 - 0:59:52] ▶
I don't think they know it
[0:59:53 - 0:59:54] ▶
and they're covering it up.
[0:59:54 - 0:59:55] ▶
I think they don't believe it.
[0:59:56 - 0:59:58] ▶
Because I have seen that
[0:59:58 - 1:00:00] ▶
over and over and over again.
[1:00:00 - 1:00:02] ▶
And at the end of the essay,
[1:00:02 - 1:00:03] ▶
I quote Upton Sinclair,
[1:00:03 - 1:00:04] ▶
you can't explain something
[1:00:05 - 1:00:06] ▶
whose salary depends
[1:00:07 - 1:00:08] ▶
on not understanding it.
[1:00:08 - 1:00:10] ▶
it gets back to the common theme
[1:00:11 - 1:00:13] ▶
you've heard us talk about,
[1:00:13 - 1:00:14] ▶
an instrument reporting something,
[1:00:16 - 1:00:17] ▶
ask about the instrument itself.
[1:00:17 - 1:00:19] ▶
who aren't believing it
[1:00:21 - 1:00:22] ▶
Because if they believed it,
[1:00:24 - 1:00:26] ▶
their whole ego structure
[1:00:26 - 1:00:27] ▶
So they have to believe it.
[1:00:28 - 1:00:30] ▶
there's nothing there.
[1:00:32 - 1:00:33] ▶
And they don't believe
[1:00:35 - 1:00:37] ▶
that something can happen
[1:00:37 - 1:00:38] ▶
that they don't understand.
[1:00:38 - 1:00:40] ▶
They think they have
[1:00:40 - 1:00:41] ▶
to understand everything.
[1:00:41 - 1:00:42] ▶
And if they don't understand it,
[1:00:43 - 1:00:44] ▶
But it sure does exist.
[1:00:45 - 1:00:47] ▶
and this is not fake.
[1:00:50 - 1:00:51] ▶
And it's devastating
[1:00:53 - 1:00:55] ▶
One of them used to work for me.
[1:00:57 - 1:00:58] ▶
I know him extremely well.
[1:00:58 - 1:00:59] ▶
And we had a long conversation
[1:01:00 - 1:01:02] ▶
I can't mention his name
[1:01:03 - 1:01:04] ▶
is the victimizations
[1:01:08 - 1:01:09] ▶
Imagine serving your country,
[1:01:10 - 1:01:12] ▶
being wounded in service
[1:01:12 - 1:01:13] ▶
and your country says,
[1:01:14 - 1:01:15] ▶
you didn't have that happen
[1:01:16 - 1:01:17] ▶
that's the worst part.
[1:01:23 - 1:01:24] ▶
Mark Polymonopoulos,
[1:01:24 - 1:01:25] ▶
who was on the 60 Minutes piece,
[1:01:25 - 1:01:27] ▶
but they betrayed him.
[1:01:30 - 1:01:32] ▶
it's a radio frequency,
[1:01:37 - 1:01:39] ▶
using repetitive pulse strain,
[1:01:41 - 1:01:45] ▶
very high peak power radiation
[1:01:46 - 1:01:49] ▶
within line of sight.
[1:01:51 - 1:01:53] ▶
can the culprit device be?
[1:01:55 - 1:01:57] ▶
it could probably be
[1:01:57 - 1:01:58] ▶
to fit in a backpack.
[1:01:59 - 1:02:01] ▶
and how can we detect
[1:02:02 - 1:02:04] ▶
It could be a nanosecond
[1:02:07 - 1:02:09] ▶
to detect this nanosecond,
[1:02:15 - 1:02:17] ▶
very high pulse rate.
[1:02:17 - 1:02:18] ▶
that this can happen
[1:02:24 - 1:02:27] ▶
they would detect it.
[1:02:27 - 1:02:28] ▶
And interestingly enough,
[1:02:29 - 1:02:30] ▶
we don't have the devices
[1:02:31 - 1:02:33] ▶
that could detect that.
[1:02:33 - 1:02:34] ▶
kind of pick my words
[1:02:38 - 1:02:41] ▶
to detect something,
[1:02:44 - 1:02:45] ▶
you first have to be open
[1:02:45 - 1:02:47] ▶
to where it might be.
[1:02:47 - 1:02:48] ▶
And so let's take this radiation,
[1:02:48 - 1:02:51] ▶
this directed energy.
[1:02:51 - 1:02:52] ▶
because there is this thing
[1:02:56 - 1:02:57] ▶
called the microwave hearing effect
[1:02:57 - 1:02:59] ▶
a microwave at someone
[1:03:00 - 1:03:02] ▶
and cause them to hear things
[1:03:02 - 1:03:04] ▶
because of thermoelasticity.
[1:03:04 - 1:03:06] ▶
thermoelastic explosions
[1:03:06 - 1:03:07] ▶
that create vibrations
[1:03:08 - 1:03:10] ▶
to modulate that with voice.
[1:03:13 - 1:03:15] ▶
We call it the voice of God
[1:03:15 - 1:03:16] ▶
where you can project
[1:03:16 - 1:03:17] ▶
the voice into someone
[1:03:17 - 1:03:19] ▶
is how one set of creatures
[1:03:22 - 1:03:24] ▶
could talk to another set
[1:03:25 - 1:03:26] ▶
using that phenomena.
[1:03:27 - 1:03:28] ▶
what isn't impossible.
[1:03:30 - 1:03:32] ▶
and free air plasmas.
[1:03:35 - 1:03:36] ▶
and create shockwaves
[1:03:39 - 1:03:40] ▶
that you could create
[1:03:44 - 1:03:45] ▶
very precisely located
[1:03:47 - 1:03:49] ▶
of damage acoustically.
[1:03:51 - 1:03:52] ▶
or an acoustic system.
[1:03:54 - 1:03:55] ▶
it's basically flat.
[1:04:34 - 1:04:36] ▶
something way higher.
[1:04:52 - 1:04:53] ▶
but that doesn't mean
[1:04:57 - 1:04:58] ▶
it's an acoustic source.
[1:04:58 - 1:04:59] ▶
that's what's happening.
[1:05:05 - 1:05:06] ▶
civilian energy grids
[1:05:38 - 1:05:39] ▶
at any of those cases?
[1:05:42 - 1:05:43] ▶
you see more frequency,
[1:05:57 - 1:05:58] ▶
more stuff looking at it?
[1:06:03 - 1:06:04] ▶
around nuclear plants?
[1:06:11 - 1:06:13] ▶
high electromagnetic
[1:06:14 - 1:06:16] ▶
Because of Ohm's law.
[1:06:29 - 1:06:30] ▶
electromagnetic fields,
[1:06:37 - 1:06:38] ▶
aerosols in the air,
[1:06:41 - 1:06:42] ▶
cause some fluorescence
[1:06:44 - 1:06:45] ▶
to be intellectually
[1:06:49 - 1:06:49] ▶
objective scientists
[1:07:08 - 1:07:10] ▶
it's really important
[1:07:21 - 1:07:22] ▶
to be hyper rigorous
[1:07:22 - 1:07:23] ▶
and volunteer for it?
[1:07:52 - 1:07:53] ▶
so much interesting,
[1:08:01 - 1:08:03] ▶
ultimate truth seeking,
[1:08:08 - 1:08:09] ▶
studying this stuff.
[1:08:20 - 1:08:21] ▶
where for what we call
[1:08:26 - 1:08:28] ▶
and let's form a team
[1:08:34 - 1:08:35] ▶
and let's put scientists
[1:08:35 - 1:08:37] ▶
But you saw in 60 minutes
[1:08:37 - 1:08:39] ▶
to work in my own lab
[1:08:52 - 1:08:53] ▶
to sense this stuff.
[1:08:55 - 1:08:56] ▶
but it's on my own dime.
[1:08:58 - 1:09:00] ▶
ask these questions.
[1:09:09 - 1:09:10] ▶
They don't really care.
[1:09:12 - 1:09:13] ▶
the answer they want.
[1:09:14 - 1:09:15] ▶
when it comes to UFOs
[1:09:17 - 1:09:19] ▶
and all this other stuff,
[1:09:19 - 1:09:20] ▶
I imagine you worked
[1:09:28 - 1:09:30] ▶
distinguished service medal
[1:09:35 - 1:09:36] ▶
in the age of disclosure
[1:09:40 - 1:09:41] ▶
we had some sensor program.
[1:09:43 - 1:09:44] ▶
and then Mike Rogers
[1:09:46 - 1:09:48] ▶
you probably also know.
[1:09:48 - 1:09:49] ▶
in a public interview.
[1:09:56 - 1:09:57] ▶
of National Intelligence,
[1:10:02 - 1:10:03] ▶
holding all of its files
[1:10:09 - 1:10:10] ▶
and I need everything
[1:10:10 - 1:10:11] ▶
that you have on UFOs.
[1:10:11 - 1:10:12] ▶
accept at face value
[1:10:18 - 1:10:20] ▶
kind of UFO crash retrieval
[1:10:21 - 1:10:23] ▶
and reverse engineering,
[1:10:23 - 1:10:24] ▶
there's some evidence
[1:10:27 - 1:10:27] ▶
that's like pretty good too.
[1:10:28 - 1:10:29] ▶
take that at face value,
[1:10:31 - 1:10:31] ▶
They like to be called
[1:10:42 - 1:10:43] ▶
They aren't mere pilots.
[1:10:43 - 1:10:46] ▶
In a non-official manner,
[1:10:46 - 1:10:49] ▶
that they couldn't understand
[1:10:55 - 1:10:56] ▶
on a very regular basis,
[1:10:57 - 1:10:59] ▶
because it was career ending.
[1:11:04 - 1:11:06] ▶
Would it have been career ending?
[1:11:06 - 1:11:07] ▶
have seen a lot of stuff
[1:11:08 - 1:11:09] ▶
And that's the same thing
[1:11:13 - 1:11:15] ▶
as the Habanus syndrome
[1:11:15 - 1:11:16] ▶
because if we acknowledge,
[1:11:25 - 1:11:26] ▶
my personal opinion,
[1:11:27 - 1:11:28] ▶
if we acknowledge the fact,
[1:11:28 - 1:11:30] ▶
then it's going to scare people.
[1:11:30 - 1:11:32] ▶
Who else is going to go abroad
[1:11:33 - 1:11:35] ▶
and work for State Department?
[1:11:35 - 1:11:37] ▶
Nobody will want to do that
[1:11:37 - 1:11:39] ▶
they will risk their life.
[1:11:40 - 1:11:41] ▶
that there is something
[1:11:42 - 1:11:43] ▶
who is going to go on missions,
[1:11:45 - 1:11:47] ▶
they won't want to do it also
[1:11:49 - 1:11:52] ▶
because they will risk their lives.
[1:11:52 - 1:11:54] ▶
So it's a big scare factor.
[1:11:54 - 1:11:56] ▶
It's going to scare a lot of people.
[1:11:56 - 1:11:58] ▶
our government doesn't want to do that.
[1:12:00 - 1:12:01] ▶
they don't understand it.
[1:12:02 - 1:12:03] ▶
They don't understand it
[1:12:03 - 1:12:04] ▶
and they don't want to scare people
[1:12:04 - 1:12:05] ▶
so it doesn't exist.
[1:12:05 - 1:12:07] ▶
And in the intelligence world,
[1:12:08 - 1:12:09] ▶
there's a really unfortunate thing
[1:12:09 - 1:12:11] ▶
It really bothers me a lot.
[1:12:12 - 1:12:14] ▶
And I've had it happen to me personally
[1:12:14 - 1:12:15] ▶
and the connection between Iraq
[1:12:16 - 1:12:18] ▶
we're supposed to speak truth to power.
[1:12:24 - 1:12:26] ▶
We're supposed to be objective reporters
[1:12:26 - 1:12:28] ▶
who report what we think is happening
[1:12:28 - 1:12:31] ▶
with what confidence
[1:12:31 - 1:12:33] ▶
and to never let our own political agendas
[1:12:33 - 1:12:37] ▶
color what we tell policymakers.
[1:12:37 - 1:12:40] ▶
on the 60 Minutes interview
[1:12:42 - 1:12:45] ▶
if it's the Russians doing it to us,
[1:12:47 - 1:12:49] ▶
that's an act of war
[1:12:49 - 1:12:50] ▶
because they've done it
[1:12:50 - 1:12:51] ▶
against very senior U.S. officials,
[1:12:51 - 1:12:55] ▶
national security officials
[1:12:55 - 1:12:56] ▶
They've attacked us.
[1:12:58 - 1:12:59] ▶
I think that is exactly what it is.
[1:13:01 - 1:13:03] ▶
Because the Russians look at war differently.
[1:13:03 - 1:13:04] ▶
They're always at war.
[1:13:05 - 1:13:05] ▶
They call it gray war
[1:13:06 - 1:13:07] ▶
And their intelligence services
[1:13:09 - 1:13:11] ▶
are more about making things happen
[1:13:11 - 1:13:13] ▶
than reporting what happens.
[1:13:13 - 1:13:14] ▶
Very different philosophy than ours.
[1:13:15 - 1:13:17] ▶
And so it's very inconvenient
[1:13:18 - 1:13:21] ▶
to have to tell the Russians,
[1:13:21 - 1:13:22] ▶
you just declared war on us.
[1:13:23 - 1:13:25] ▶
And the guys at CIA don't want that.
[1:13:27 - 1:13:29] ▶
They don't want a nuclear war.
[1:13:29 - 1:13:30] ▶
Because what are we really going to do
[1:13:31 - 1:13:34] ▶
because they've been doing this to us?
[1:13:35 - 1:13:36] ▶
Are we supposed to launch
[1:13:38 - 1:13:40] ▶
a nuclear war against them?
[1:13:40 - 1:13:41] ▶
Are we supposed to start
[1:13:41 - 1:13:42] ▶
killing their intelligence operatives?
[1:13:42 - 1:13:44] ▶
What are we supposed to do about it?
[1:13:45 - 1:13:46] ▶
Well, not only that,
[1:13:46 - 1:13:48] ▶
but it's so embarrassing
[1:13:48 - 1:13:49] ▶
because it's been going on since 1980s.
[1:13:49 - 1:13:52] ▶
It started in the 1980s
[1:13:53 - 1:13:55] ▶
and we haven't done anything.
[1:13:55 - 1:13:56] ▶
It was a war declared.
[1:13:56 - 1:13:57] ▶
So the fact of the matter is
[1:13:58 - 1:14:00] ▶
the Russians know very well
[1:14:00 - 1:14:02] ▶
that if they keep the aggression
[1:14:02 - 1:14:04] ▶
below a certain threshold,
[1:14:04 - 1:14:05] ▶
we're going to do nothing.
[1:14:06 - 1:14:06] ▶
And so they know that.
[1:14:08 - 1:14:09] ▶
And so they keep doing it.
[1:14:09 - 1:14:10] ▶
And if we say to the American voters,
[1:14:10 - 1:14:13] ▶
we know the Russians have been
[1:14:13 - 1:14:14] ▶
and we're just going to sit here
[1:14:17 - 1:14:18] ▶
Well, how would the voters like that?
[1:14:19 - 1:14:21] ▶
But on the other hand,
[1:14:21 - 1:14:22] ▶
if we get too aggressive
[1:14:22 - 1:14:24] ▶
and react to the Russians,
[1:14:24 - 1:14:25] ▶
we're going to turn up the heat.
[1:14:26 - 1:14:27] ▶
So you have an example there
[1:14:27 - 1:14:29] ▶
we're going to control the narrative
[1:14:30 - 1:14:32] ▶
to keep us from going to war with Russia.
[1:14:32 - 1:14:34] ▶
That may actually be,
[1:14:36 - 1:14:37] ▶
at the end of the day,
[1:14:37 - 1:14:39] ▶
but they don't get to decide that.
[1:14:40 - 1:14:42] ▶
and I've seen this inside
[1:14:43 - 1:14:45] ▶
where I see exactly that happened
[1:14:45 - 1:14:47] ▶
And I said to a very senior person at NSA,
[1:14:48 - 1:14:51] ▶
we weren't going to tell Bush something
[1:14:55 - 1:14:56] ▶
I'm not going to let you do that.
[1:15:00 - 1:15:01] ▶
he'll go do anything.
[1:15:03 - 1:15:04] ▶
that's not your call.
[1:15:05 - 1:15:06] ▶
we can't let him go off on a,
[1:15:09 - 1:15:11] ▶
but that's not your call.
[1:15:13 - 1:15:14] ▶
And that's the reality.
[1:15:16 - 1:15:18] ▶
people's trust in the intelligence apparatus
[1:15:20 - 1:15:22] ▶
And I will tell you,
[1:15:24 - 1:15:25] ▶
I didn't see a lot of that,
[1:15:25 - 1:15:26] ▶
And if it's something coming from outside earth,
[1:15:29 - 1:15:32] ▶
it's the same thing.
[1:15:32 - 1:15:33] ▶
Cause those pilots were describing
[1:15:33 - 1:15:35] ▶
a lot of near misses.
[1:15:35 - 1:15:36] ▶
When they were flying,
[1:15:37 - 1:15:38] ▶
they almost missed something.
[1:15:38 - 1:15:41] ▶
Their worry was flight safety over everything.
[1:15:41 - 1:15:43] ▶
and they were worried.
[1:15:43 - 1:15:44] ▶
So if it's the same thing,
[1:15:44 - 1:15:45] ▶
and it's something coming from outside earth
[1:15:45 - 1:15:48] ▶
that we don't understand,
[1:15:48 - 1:15:49] ▶
if officials acknowledge that this is what is happening,
[1:15:50 - 1:15:54] ▶
it's going to scare the bejesus out of everybody.
[1:15:54 - 1:15:57] ▶
and they don't want to do that because first,
[1:15:59 - 1:16:02] ▶
they don't understand it.
[1:16:03 - 1:16:04] ▶
So it doesn't exist.
[1:16:04 - 1:16:06] ▶
cause otherwise it will make them look incompetent.
[1:16:06 - 1:16:10] ▶
And it's been going on for several years also.
[1:16:10 - 1:16:13] ▶
So how come they've let this happen for several years
[1:16:13 - 1:16:17] ▶
without doing anything?
[1:16:17 - 1:16:18] ▶
And the only way is to say it doesn't exist.
[1:16:18 - 1:16:21] ▶
not the right orientation towards this whole subject.
[1:16:24 - 1:16:27] ▶
And another thing sort of like that.
[1:16:27 - 1:16:29] ▶
And I actually think it's more acknowledged probably by CIA
[1:16:29 - 1:16:33] ▶
than it is by the civilian world.
[1:16:33 - 1:16:35] ▶
But there was a psychic spy program.
[1:16:35 - 1:16:37] ▶
but there's also stargate.
[1:16:40 - 1:16:41] ▶
Do you know about this?
[1:16:41 - 1:16:42] ▶
And so there's to me,
[1:16:43 - 1:16:45] ▶
a bunch of evidence from CIA circles that there is some sort of mind
[1:16:45 - 1:16:50] ▶
or there's maybe we're talking about kind of transmission theory of
[1:16:51 - 1:16:55] ▶
something else going on as far as our epistemological circuitry,
[1:16:55 - 1:17:00] ▶
than anybody in academia would ever admit.
[1:17:00 - 1:17:03] ▶
And something that I feel very passionate about is like science should not be
[1:17:03 - 1:17:08] ▶
locked up in any of these agencies to the extent that there's some trade
[1:17:08 - 1:17:13] ▶
secret that confers a tactical warfare advantage.
[1:17:13 - 1:17:16] ▶
But the idea that like something that fundamental is just,
[1:17:16 - 1:17:21] ▶
kind of stuck in these agencies.
[1:17:21 - 1:17:23] ▶
this is all by the way,
[1:17:23 - 1:17:25] ▶
this is FOIA in 2017.
[1:17:25 - 1:17:26] ▶
These programs are public now,
[1:17:26 - 1:17:28] ▶
but that's pretty wild.
[1:17:28 - 1:17:29] ▶
And like no one in academia would,
[1:17:30 - 1:17:32] ▶
they'd all laugh at this if we're,
[1:17:32 - 1:17:33] ▶
they'd laugh at the conversation we're having right now,
[1:17:34 - 1:17:35] ▶
but then the people in aerospace and in these agencies that like need every
[1:17:35 - 1:17:40] ▶
advantage they get with intelligence modalities,
[1:17:40 - 1:17:43] ▶
I w I wouldn't go that far.
[1:17:47 - 1:17:49] ▶
I will tell you this,
[1:17:50 - 1:17:51] ▶
the Russians take this stuff way more seriously than we do.
[1:17:51 - 1:17:55] ▶
And to the extent that in chess matches,
[1:17:55 - 1:17:56] ▶
they would have summoning like beaming negative mental energy at our opponent of a
[1:17:57 - 1:18:01] ▶
the Russians are much more open to things that we aren't,
[1:18:03 - 1:18:07] ▶
and things that don't cost anything as because they don't have very much resources.
[1:18:09 - 1:18:14] ▶
I think that some of the biggest discoveries in this area probably will be the
[1:18:17 - 1:18:21] ▶
Russians because they have much more open minds than we do.
[1:18:21 - 1:18:24] ▶
I think they tend to be more spiritual and mystical maybe than we do because of
[1:18:24 - 1:18:28] ▶
let's talk about this remote consciousness thing and these phenomena where a
[1:18:32 - 1:18:38] ▶
psychic can tell you there's a body buried under a bridge and they go there and
[1:18:38 - 1:18:41] ▶
one explanation is ESP or clairvoyance or non-local consciousness,
[1:18:44 - 1:18:48] ▶
and that's possible.
[1:18:48 - 1:18:49] ▶
But then let's look at the other possibilities.
[1:18:49 - 1:18:52] ▶
We know there are some humans that are savants,
[1:18:52 - 1:18:55] ▶
someone who you could say what day of the week is,
[1:18:57 - 1:19:00] ▶
And so there are some people with unbelievable,
[1:19:05 - 1:19:08] ▶
weird genius capabilities.
[1:19:08 - 1:19:11] ▶
who's to say that someone couldn't have absorbed all the news and everything about
[1:19:12 - 1:19:17] ▶
the human condition and reach the conclusion that a serial killer of a certain
[1:19:17 - 1:19:21] ▶
kind is going to put a body in a certain place in a certain date.
[1:19:21 - 1:19:24] ▶
That this is not ESP.
[1:19:25 - 1:19:26] ▶
It's just elevating an analytic skills to a genius level.
[1:19:27 - 1:19:32] ▶
something like that is more likely explanation than something that's totally outside any range.
[1:19:34 - 1:19:42] ▶
So I would disagree with you.
[1:19:42 - 1:19:43] ▶
but I always look at,
[1:19:43 - 1:19:45] ▶
you have to respect what we don't know.
[1:19:46 - 1:19:48] ▶
And I'm not going to say impossible.
[1:19:48 - 1:19:50] ▶
I would go that far,
[1:19:51 - 1:19:52] ▶
but at the same time,
[1:19:52 - 1:19:53] ▶
I am a scientist and I look at,
[1:19:53 - 1:19:55] ▶
evaluate possibilities based on the best tools we have available to come up with.
[1:19:55 - 1:20:01] ▶
Is there an explanation within the science we do know?
[1:20:01 - 1:20:04] ▶
And I would start there and then deposit a science we don't know is such an unknown realm.
[1:20:05 - 1:20:11] ▶
It's almost not worth looking at because there's no way of evaluating that information.
[1:20:11 - 1:20:16] ▶
You don't rule it out.
[1:20:16 - 1:20:18] ▶
maybe there's something there,
[1:20:19 - 1:20:20] ▶
but then you become the cat that doesn't want that cannot learn French.
[1:20:21 - 1:20:25] ▶
this is a fascinating thing about the scientific method.
[1:20:28 - 1:20:31] ▶
We assume it's the end all,
[1:20:31 - 1:20:33] ▶
but clearly it isn't because it fails us over and over again.
[1:20:33 - 1:20:36] ▶
I went to a hundredth reunion of my PhD.
[1:20:38 - 1:20:41] ▶
The program at Indiana university,
[1:20:41 - 1:20:43] ▶
where BF Skinner was there,
[1:20:43 - 1:20:44] ▶
these luminaries and I,
[1:20:44 - 1:20:46] ▶
I was an industry and I said,
[1:20:46 - 1:20:48] ▶
I've been out 10 years and I think the scientific method is really flawed and limited.
[1:20:48 - 1:20:53] ▶
you have to narrow things down so tiny and so narrow to reach a real robust conclusion.
[1:20:57 - 1:21:03] ▶
You have to control so much that it becomes inapplicable to the real world where nothing is controlled.
[1:21:04 - 1:21:10] ▶
in my world where I'm in the fighter simulation business and I have to figure out how to make a pilot think he's flying at 20 feet off the ground with very limited cues.
[1:21:11 - 1:21:20] ▶
There's no science for that.
[1:21:20 - 1:21:22] ▶
I just have to try a bunch of shit and see what works.
[1:21:22 - 1:21:24] ▶
the method is seriously flawed and limited.
[1:21:27 - 1:21:29] ▶
So I think that I will give you this.
[1:21:31 - 1:21:34] ▶
The scientific method itself is limited.
[1:21:34 - 1:21:36] ▶
It's the same thing as,
[1:21:37 - 1:21:38] ▶
when you're looking for the body or body that's buried,
[1:21:39 - 1:21:41] ▶
maybe that person has an extra sense of smell that could smell what it is.
[1:21:42 - 1:21:46] ▶
Maybe that person has an extra sense of something that we don't know,
[1:21:47 - 1:21:51] ▶
we don't acknowledge that exists and we don't have the tools to evaluate.
[1:21:51 - 1:21:55] ▶
So I think it is very possible that,
[1:21:55 - 1:21:58] ▶
that particular person has a capability,
[1:21:58 - 1:22:02] ▶
capacity of finding a body somewhere.
[1:22:02 - 1:22:04] ▶
we don't know how to evaluate that possible capability.
[1:22:07 - 1:22:10] ▶
it's something we don't know and we have no idea and we should be open in,
[1:22:14 - 1:22:18] ▶
I'll give you both a big yo.
[1:22:19 - 1:22:20] ▶
It is one of those things where it's a paradigm shifting thing,
[1:22:22 - 1:22:26] ▶
and then we don't know if it's real,
[1:22:27 - 1:22:28] ▶
you have this woman,
[1:22:28 - 1:22:29] ▶
who is president of the American statistical association.
[1:22:30 - 1:22:32] ▶
She looked at all the CIA data around Stargate,
[1:22:32 - 1:22:35] ▶
And she came out saying,
[1:22:36 - 1:22:38] ▶
if this were any other field and not parapsychology,
[1:22:38 - 1:22:40] ▶
which has this inherent kind of stigma stench attached to it,
[1:22:40 - 1:22:44] ▶
it would be beyond a shadow of doubt with the P values.
[1:22:44 - 1:22:46] ▶
She was looking at that.
[1:22:46 - 1:22:48] ▶
This is totally real.
[1:22:48 - 1:22:49] ▶
it's like black body radiation in the late 19th century,
[1:22:52 - 1:22:55] ▶
where you can say it's fake because of the prevailing theory at the time,
[1:22:55 - 1:22:59] ▶
try to find a theory.
[1:23:00 - 1:23:01] ▶
the thing is one reason you'll find me to be such a stickler.
[1:23:07 - 1:23:10] ▶
Is I kind of have to be,
[1:23:10 - 1:23:12] ▶
to have credibility because I want hardcore scientists.
[1:23:12 - 1:23:16] ▶
To look at someone like me and someone like Dr.
[1:23:17 - 1:23:19] ▶
they're not wild eyed crazies.
[1:23:20 - 1:23:22] ▶
They are disciplined.
[1:23:22 - 1:23:24] ▶
And so I'm purposely that way,
[1:23:25 - 1:23:28] ▶
that I want to maintain healthy skepticism at the same time.
[1:23:29 - 1:23:34] ▶
because the very best scientists realize that we're,
[1:23:35 - 1:23:39] ▶
we're much more limited than we want to admit.
[1:23:39 - 1:23:41] ▶
And so what I want to do is speak to those scientists and say,
[1:23:42 - 1:23:45] ▶
play in this space because there's some exciting stuff here.
[1:23:45 - 1:23:49] ▶
I have no idea what it is,
[1:23:49 - 1:23:50] ▶
but I know what it isn't.
[1:23:50 - 1:23:52] ▶
And what it isn't is something we understand.
[1:23:52 - 1:23:54] ▶
while you were at NSA or ODNI,
[1:23:58 - 1:24:00] ▶
anything that's now declassified around the UFO stuff that came across your desk,
[1:24:00 - 1:24:05] ▶
any signals intelligence or.
[1:24:05 - 1:24:07] ▶
And I'll tell you that inside the highest levels of the intelligence community,
[1:24:08 - 1:24:12] ▶
this is not something we spent a femto second thinking about.
[1:24:12 - 1:24:15] ▶
I don't think there was any point.
[1:24:15 - 1:24:17] ▶
I did get involved in some FOIA requests at NSA as a senior executive,
[1:24:17 - 1:24:22] ▶
but none of us spend any time on this.
[1:24:22 - 1:24:26] ▶
There's one guy I interviewed who's,
[1:24:27 - 1:24:29] ▶
his name is Dan Sherman.
[1:24:29 - 1:24:30] ▶
And he said he was taken to an NSA complex and he was like,
[1:24:30 - 1:24:34] ▶
kind of humming these like tones with this headphones.
[1:24:35 - 1:24:39] ▶
that was all meant to,
[1:24:40 - 1:24:42] ▶
so he could communicate with non-human intelligence.
[1:24:42 - 1:24:45] ▶
I'm going to play a tone.
[1:24:46 - 1:24:47] ▶
And I want you to mentally hum that tone.
[1:24:48 - 1:24:51] ▶
And he said that you will eventually feel a connection.
[1:24:51 - 1:24:55] ▶
The line will change.
[1:24:56 - 1:24:57] ▶
When I saw the sine wave move,
[1:24:58 - 1:25:00] ▶
I heard about something like that.
[1:25:04 - 1:25:05] ▶
It's called Above Black is the book he wrote.
[1:25:05 - 1:25:07] ▶
Project Preserve Destiny.
[1:25:07 - 1:25:09] ▶
Do you have a take on that?
[1:25:09 - 1:25:10] ▶
but I will tell you that,
[1:25:13 - 1:25:15] ▶
you're interested in budgets.
[1:25:17 - 1:25:18] ▶
And I'm trying to get more money to do high risk,
[1:25:21 - 1:25:24] ▶
high reward research.
[1:25:24 - 1:25:25] ▶
That consumed a hundred percent of my time.
[1:25:26 - 1:25:28] ▶
except when I was going to be interviewed by 60 minutes and they wanted to ask me
[1:25:30 - 1:25:33] ▶
It never even came up.
[1:25:34 - 1:25:35] ▶
kind of terrestrial propulsion modalities that could explain what we're seeing,
[1:25:38 - 1:25:43] ▶
because this is part of your book.
[1:25:43 - 1:25:44] ▶
Is there anything you guys are aware of or think could be possible,
[1:25:44 - 1:25:49] ▶
that transcends chemical combustion?
[1:25:50 - 1:25:51] ▶
I'm glad you brought that up because we go through NASA's innovative,
[1:25:54 - 1:25:58] ▶
I think it's fantastic because it's one part of the government that's saying
[1:26:01 - 1:26:04] ▶
we will fund anything that isn't impossible.
[1:26:04 - 1:26:07] ▶
I love that approach.
[1:26:08 - 1:26:10] ▶
And they give you a little funding if you can play with it.
[1:26:10 - 1:26:13] ▶
And an example of that is a warp drive.
[1:26:13 - 1:26:15] ▶
we get into the possibilities of,
[1:26:18 - 1:26:20] ▶
what people don't talk about when you talk about traveling near the speed of
[1:26:22 - 1:26:26] ▶
light is the acceleration and deceleration.
[1:26:26 - 1:26:29] ▶
You've got to accelerate from nothing to this near the speed of light,
[1:26:30 - 1:26:33] ▶
and then you've got to slow down to get where you're going to go.
[1:26:33 - 1:26:36] ▶
either those take a really long time,
[1:26:37 - 1:26:39] ▶
which gets rid of a lot of the advantage of traveling that fast,
[1:26:39 - 1:26:44] ▶
or you have an organism that can withstand unbelievable Gs,
[1:26:44 - 1:26:48] ▶
we studied there were,
[1:26:51 - 1:26:51] ▶
there were some studies done on,
[1:26:52 - 1:26:53] ▶
on that because for,
[1:26:53 - 1:26:55] ▶
organisms to be able to travel,
[1:26:57 - 1:26:59] ▶
from outer space to earth,
[1:27:00 - 1:27:02] ▶
they need to be able to resist extreme cold,
[1:27:03 - 1:27:07] ▶
extremely long journeys.
[1:27:09 - 1:27:10] ▶
so extreme accelerations,
[1:27:11 - 1:27:12] ▶
extreme decelerations,
[1:27:12 - 1:27:13] ▶
and intense radiation,
[1:27:13 - 1:27:16] ▶
we've done studies on,
[1:27:25 - 1:27:27] ▶
when we're talking about nuclear,
[1:27:30 - 1:27:31] ▶
So there is an organism,
[1:27:35 - 1:27:36] ▶
a bacterium called Deinococcus radiodurans,
[1:27:36 - 1:27:39] ▶
It can actually thrive on intense radiation,
[1:27:43 - 1:27:46] ▶
but also it can survive cold,
[1:27:46 - 1:27:48] ▶
it's a extremophile.
[1:27:53 - 1:27:55] ▶
And we've got a few that are extremophiles.
[1:27:55 - 1:27:58] ▶
the Deinococcus radiodurans,
[1:27:59 - 1:28:01] ▶
has been found to survive three years in outer space,
[1:28:01 - 1:28:06] ▶
based on the studies conducted on the,
[1:28:06 - 1:28:08] ▶
on the International Space Station.
[1:28:08 - 1:28:10] ▶
Now we've done studies on ants.
[1:28:11 - 1:28:13] ▶
There are certain type of ants that can sustain 5,000 Gs,
[1:28:13 - 1:28:18] ▶
so 5,000 times the force of gravity.
[1:28:18 - 1:28:20] ▶
they're tardigrades.
[1:28:22 - 1:28:23] ▶
What are tardigrades?
[1:28:23 - 1:28:24] ▶
little bears that are from half a millimeter to 1.2 millimeters that have eight legs.
[1:28:24 - 1:28:31] ▶
And they're found on moss or fresh or seawater sediment.
[1:28:31 - 1:28:35] ▶
And they can sustain 16,000 Gs,
[1:28:35 - 1:28:39] ▶
like 16,000 times the force of gravity,
[1:28:39 - 1:28:41] ▶
when a human will be killed with a sustained exposure to 12 Gs.
[1:28:41 - 1:28:47] ▶
and those little tardigrades can survive 30 years at zero degree Fahrenheit,
[1:28:49 - 1:28:54] ▶
can survive 10 years in a dehydrated state.
[1:28:54 - 1:28:58] ▶
And NASA did an experiment where they survived 18 months in the vacuum of space.
[1:28:58 - 1:29:04] ▶
Same thing outside the International Space Station.
[1:29:04 - 1:29:07] ▶
Now there are fruit flies.
[1:29:08 - 1:29:09] ▶
those little teeny things are able to withstand up to 17,000 Gs,
[1:29:12 - 1:29:18] ▶
the force of gravity.
[1:29:20 - 1:29:22] ▶
There are roundworms,
[1:29:22 - 1:29:24] ▶
They can be parasite in animals or also in humans.
[1:29:26 - 1:29:29] ▶
They can withstand 80,000 Gs.
[1:29:29 - 1:29:33] ▶
it was reported that an individual nematode was,
[1:29:36 - 1:29:39] ▶
has been revived after 46,000 years in the Siberian permafrost.
[1:29:40 - 1:29:46] ▶
And talking about organisms that are resistant to extreme conditions,
[1:29:46 - 1:29:52] ▶
like in the bottom of the ocean,
[1:29:53 - 1:29:55] ▶
near the bottom of the ocean,
[1:29:55 - 1:29:57] ▶
at five miles below the ocean,
[1:29:57 - 1:30:00] ▶
which is 26,000 feet below the surface,
[1:30:00 - 1:30:03] ▶
near hydrothermal vents,
[1:30:04 - 1:30:06] ▶
there are cells that can survive.
[1:30:07 - 1:30:10] ▶
that the home is located near hydrothermal vents.
[1:30:14 - 1:30:17] ▶
There's a Mariana snailfish that can live near the Mariana or in the Mariana trench,
[1:30:19 - 1:30:25] ▶
in the Western Pacific Ocean.
[1:30:26 - 1:30:27] ▶
So imagine an organism that is under five miles,
[1:30:27 - 1:30:33] ▶
heavy weight that would crush any kind of organ,
[1:30:35 - 1:30:39] ▶
And it does not crush,
[1:30:40 - 1:30:42] ▶
It doesn't crush a little worm.
[1:30:44 - 1:30:47] ▶
So I think the bottom line of everything that she's saying is we should never say never when it comes to nothing could sustain interstellar travel.
[1:30:50 - 1:30:57] ▶
Nothing could sustain the kind of G's that we see with the Tic Tac,
[1:30:58 - 1:31:01] ▶
we actually have existence proofs that those things are possible.
[1:31:02 - 1:31:05] ▶
But getting back to the question you asked about propulsion,
[1:31:05 - 1:31:08] ▶
which this is relevant because some of these propulsions get to extreme accelerations and radiation even.
[1:31:08 - 1:31:14] ▶
the ones that I think are the most interesting are where you're not putting the power source on the vehicle.
[1:31:15 - 1:31:22] ▶
we have this video and we know the guy who did it at Sandia National Lab and at White Sands,
[1:31:24 - 1:31:30] ▶
where you take a disc,
[1:31:30 - 1:31:32] ▶
a flying saucer basically,
[1:31:32 - 1:31:33] ▶
and you put a pulse laser,
[1:31:33 - 1:31:35] ▶
and you shoot it up and you propel it with laser energy.
[1:31:36 - 1:31:39] ▶
So you can move something through the air where there's no engine on it at all.
[1:31:40 - 1:31:43] ▶
You're just pushing on it with photons.
[1:31:44 - 1:31:45] ▶
Did you do that at a larger scale?
[1:31:45 - 1:31:46] ▶
we've talked to did it for the government and he's been forever trying to say,
[1:31:50 - 1:31:55] ▶
you want clean energy.
[1:31:55 - 1:31:56] ▶
You don't need any fuel at all.
[1:31:56 - 1:31:58] ▶
You just use a laser beam or a microwave to push it.
[1:31:58 - 1:32:01] ▶
can you say the guy's name or,
[1:32:01 - 1:32:02] ▶
I'd have to look it up.
[1:32:03 - 1:32:05] ▶
and I don't know he'd want himself.
[1:32:08 - 1:32:09] ▶
He's a little private.
[1:32:09 - 1:32:10] ▶
you can go online and you can look at a laser propelled disc and you can see a video and it looks exactly like a flying saucer just levitating up.
[1:32:11 - 1:32:21] ▶
Why are we investing heavily in this?
[1:32:22 - 1:32:23] ▶
If you can do that at high,
[1:32:23 - 1:32:24] ▶
this gets into another thing and this is his frustration.
[1:32:26 - 1:32:28] ▶
is that if this were successful,
[1:32:30 - 1:32:33] ▶
it would threaten a huge established,
[1:32:33 - 1:32:34] ▶
he wants to use it for civil aviation.
[1:32:39 - 1:32:40] ▶
And he's done the math.
[1:32:42 - 1:32:42] ▶
And now with adaptive optics at the time,
[1:32:42 - 1:32:44] ▶
he first doing this,
[1:32:44 - 1:32:45] ▶
you could only do it at short distances.
[1:32:45 - 1:32:47] ▶
But we have adaptive optics now where we can control for atmospheric losses and distortion of the beam and stuff like that.
[1:32:47 - 1:32:54] ▶
I think when it comes to getting things into low earth orbit in particular,
[1:32:56 - 1:32:59] ▶
this ought to really be looked at.
[1:32:59 - 1:33:01] ▶
but in NASA's program,
[1:33:02 - 1:33:03] ▶
they look at a lot of things from,
[1:33:03 - 1:33:06] ▶
laser propulsion in space,
[1:33:07 - 1:33:09] ▶
And they also look at,
[1:33:10 - 1:33:12] ▶
fusion reactors where you basically create a fusion reaction and you spew gamma rays out the back.
[1:33:12 - 1:33:20] ▶
it's photon pressure.
[1:33:21 - 1:33:22] ▶
a photon doesn't have any mass,
[1:33:23 - 1:33:24] ▶
but it has momentum.
[1:33:24 - 1:33:25] ▶
So when a photon hits something,
[1:33:26 - 1:33:28] ▶
it imparts its momentum to it and it will move it.
[1:33:28 - 1:33:30] ▶
those are some of the more interesting,
[1:33:35 - 1:33:37] ▶
but there are some other really weird ones like magnetic levitation.
[1:33:37 - 1:33:42] ▶
did you know it's possible for me to levitate you with a super strong magnet?
[1:33:44 - 1:33:48] ▶
But we've done it with birds and frogs and spiders.
[1:33:50 - 1:33:52] ▶
here's the way it works.
[1:33:54 - 1:33:55] ▶
Magnetism isn't just what you think of as a,
[1:33:56 - 1:33:59] ▶
like a piece of iron or a rare earth magnet or something like that.
[1:34:01 - 1:34:06] ▶
It's what we call ferromagnetism.
[1:34:06 - 1:34:07] ▶
There are a zillion other kinds of magnetism.
[1:34:07 - 1:34:10] ▶
There's ferromagnetism.
[1:34:10 - 1:34:11] ▶
There's diamagnetism.
[1:34:11 - 1:34:14] ▶
There's paramagnetism.
[1:34:14 - 1:34:15] ▶
And these all have to do with,
[1:34:16 - 1:34:18] ▶
if you have a charged particle that's spinning,
[1:34:18 - 1:34:20] ▶
it will create a magnetic field.
[1:34:20 - 1:34:21] ▶
Sometimes that magnetic field works in the direction of the inducing magnetic field.
[1:34:22 - 1:34:27] ▶
Sometimes it's with diamagnetic.
[1:34:27 - 1:34:29] ▶
instead of things being attracted,
[1:34:31 - 1:34:32] ▶
they get pushed away.
[1:34:33 - 1:34:33] ▶
And that was found maybe with a UFO and they think,
[1:34:37 - 1:34:39] ▶
So it could have magnetic levitation.
[1:34:40 - 1:34:42] ▶
And that's possible.
[1:34:43 - 1:34:44] ▶
And you can take non-metallic things and you can tractor beam them basically.
[1:34:44 - 1:34:50] ▶
There's also such a thing as optical tweezers.
[1:34:51 - 1:34:53] ▶
Where if you create a very,
[1:34:54 - 1:34:56] ▶
very strong electromagnetic field with a laser,
[1:34:56 - 1:34:59] ▶
You can move particles of dust around with this laser.
[1:35:01 - 1:35:05] ▶
It's called an optical tweezer.
[1:35:05 - 1:35:07] ▶
So remote force fields,
[1:35:07 - 1:35:10] ▶
are absolutely possible.
[1:35:11 - 1:35:12] ▶
when you do the math of how big a magnetic field you would need to control something many
[1:35:13 - 1:35:20] ▶
but I wouldn't say it's impossible.
[1:35:23 - 1:35:25] ▶
What I'm saying is magnetic fields decrease as the cube of the distance as you go away.
[1:35:25 - 1:35:30] ▶
It's not inverse square,
[1:35:30 - 1:35:31] ▶
Because they're dipoles,
[1:35:33 - 1:35:34] ▶
there's no such thing as a magnetic monopole.
[1:35:34 - 1:35:36] ▶
So at the same time you have one magnetic field reinforcing,
[1:35:36 - 1:35:39] ▶
you have the opposite end taking away.
[1:35:40 - 1:35:41] ▶
So this is in Maxwell's equations,
[1:35:42 - 1:35:44] ▶
So essentially to a first order is,
[1:35:45 - 1:35:48] ▶
So to have a steep magnetic gradient that would cause this at a very long distance,
[1:35:50 - 1:35:56] ▶
we have no idea how to do that,
[1:35:56 - 1:35:58] ▶
but we can't say it's impossible.
[1:35:58 - 1:35:59] ▶
So pushing and pulling with magnetic fields is possible.
[1:36:00 - 1:36:05] ▶
These fusion drives are kind of interesting.
[1:36:06 - 1:36:08] ▶
And the most interesting of all is the warp drive.
[1:36:09 - 1:36:14] ▶
So now this is when you get into,
[1:36:15 - 1:36:18] ▶
NASA has funded this.
[1:36:19 - 1:36:20] ▶
Even though they don't know that it's possible,
[1:36:21 - 1:36:23] ▶
they don't know that it's impossible.
[1:36:23 - 1:36:24] ▶
Some physicists have postulated what they call negative energy,
[1:36:25 - 1:36:29] ▶
which isn't the same as the energy we see,
[1:36:29 - 1:36:33] ▶
It's not the same as dark energy.
[1:36:35 - 1:36:36] ▶
because energy and mass are basically the same thing.
[1:36:39 - 1:36:42] ▶
They create gravitational effects.
[1:36:43 - 1:36:45] ▶
So pure energy has a gravitational effect and so forth,
[1:36:45 - 1:36:49] ▶
slows down space time,
[1:36:49 - 1:36:51] ▶
But what happens with this energy is that it creates a repulsion.
[1:36:51 - 1:36:57] ▶
So the Albuquerque drive,
[1:36:57 - 1:37:00] ▶
you have a huge mass or energy in front,
[1:37:02 - 1:37:06] ▶
which is positive mass or energy.
[1:37:06 - 1:37:08] ▶
And you have a huge negative in back.
[1:37:08 - 1:37:11] ▶
And so you create a wave of space time that's moved.
[1:37:11 - 1:37:14] ▶
So the way the warp drive works is imagine a surfer who's on a wave and is stationary with respect to the wave.
[1:37:14 - 1:37:21] ▶
And we know that space time can move at faster than the speed of light.
[1:37:23 - 1:37:27] ▶
Because the hyperinflation that happened after the big bang,
[1:37:27 - 1:37:31] ▶
or some think that happened,
[1:37:31 - 1:37:33] ▶
which is a pretty good evidence for it,
[1:37:34 - 1:37:36] ▶
is that space time itself can move faster than the speed of light.
[1:37:37 - 1:37:40] ▶
Which means that if you're in a bubble of space time that's moving faster than the speed of light,
[1:37:40 - 1:37:45] ▶
you're not going to experience any acceleration or deceleration.
[1:37:45 - 1:37:48] ▶
Because you're not moving in that frame.
[1:37:48 - 1:37:50] ▶
Seems like a really hard engineering problem.
[1:37:51 - 1:37:53] ▶
we don't know that negative energy exists.
[1:37:56 - 1:37:57] ▶
It's the same kind of thing that would have to keep a wormhole open.
[1:37:57 - 1:38:00] ▶
The only way a wormhole works is if you have that in the middle to keep things from collapsing.
[1:38:01 - 1:38:07] ▶
But it is interesting because Miguel Alcubierre did this proof that theoretically,
[1:38:07 - 1:38:11] ▶
even within general relativity,
[1:38:11 - 1:38:13] ▶
you could get faster than light travel if you do have negative energy.
[1:38:13 - 1:38:17] ▶
So again, and in our book, The Shadow of Time,
[1:38:18 - 1:38:21] ▶
we explore this as a kind of a plot point, you know.
[1:38:21 - 1:38:25] ▶
And so that's the kind of thing that I find kind of exciting.
[1:38:25 - 1:38:30] ▶
And here's kind of what I think is going to happen.
[1:38:30 - 1:38:32] ▶
Someone's going to keep looking at that and they won't find that.
[1:38:33 - 1:38:36] ▶
That'll turn out not to be possible or not to be true,
[1:38:36 - 1:38:38] ▶
but they'll discover something else.
[1:38:39 - 1:38:41] ▶
And this is why the study of UFOs is so important.
[1:38:42 - 1:38:47] ▶
You know, if we don't make any other point, I want to make this point.
[1:38:48 - 1:38:50] ▶
That in all of science, the biggest discoveries are by definition those we don't expect.
[1:38:50 - 1:38:56] ▶
You know, if I ask you to imagine a color you've never seen before,
[1:38:58 - 1:39:01] ▶
it's really hard to do.
[1:39:02 - 1:39:03] ▶
But if you saw it, you could recognize it.
[1:39:04 - 1:39:06] ▶
And because when we imagine something, we have to do it from the building blocks of our experience.
[1:39:06 - 1:39:12] ▶
If we have no experience, we can't imagine it.
[1:39:12 - 1:39:14] ▶
But if we put ourself in a position to observe something new,
[1:39:15 - 1:39:19] ▶
we may see something we could never have imagined.
[1:39:19 - 1:39:21] ▶
And that's where the biggest breakthroughs almost always come from.
[1:39:22 - 1:39:25] ▶
I looked while I was doing it in my peripheral vision,
[1:39:26 - 1:39:30] ▶
and I saw B, and I go, ooh, that's more interesting.
[1:39:30 - 1:39:33] ▶
And I think the reason for people to really get serious about studying what's going on here
[1:39:34 - 1:39:39] ▶
is we're going to see B, C, D, and E.
[1:39:39 - 1:39:41] ▶
We shoot for the stars, you land on the moon, and the moon's pretty cool.
[1:39:42 - 1:39:45] ▶
You land somewhere unexpected.
[1:39:45 - 1:39:47] ▶
And again, remember, that's where discovery has to happen,
[1:39:48 - 1:39:50] ▶
where by definition, you can't imagine it.
[1:39:51 - 1:39:53] ▶
Yeah, I love the Henri Bergson quote, which is,
[1:39:54 - 1:39:58] ▶
the eyes can only see what the mind can comprehend.
[1:39:58 - 1:40:00] ▶
And you need a hypothesis in order to see something to begin with.
[1:40:01 - 1:40:04] ▶
And so I think that's probably actually the most underrated aspect of the phenomena
[1:40:04 - 1:40:10] ▶
is that our vision is, I mean, this is kind of an iconized virtual reality interface.
[1:40:10 - 1:40:17] ▶
And we superimpose our, we have like a meme library in our heads.
[1:40:17 - 1:40:22] ▶
And we superimpose these preexisting building blocks onto the thing.
[1:40:22 - 1:40:26] ▶
And so in the 1890s, people would see airships, which were like on the edge of what was even
[1:40:27 - 1:40:33] ▶
possible at the time.
[1:40:33 - 1:40:33] ▶
You had like Zeppelins and stuff.
[1:40:34 - 1:40:35] ▶
And now we're seeing these like faster than light, you know, saucers and that sort of thing.
[1:40:35 - 1:40:39] ▶
So it's, there's something going on where we are using what's available to us and superimposing it, I think.
[1:40:39 - 1:40:47] ▶
And that's why AI is so important, but I'm not worried about AI supplanting or being there instead of our brain.
[1:40:48 - 1:40:58] ▶
I think AI will always be important in the future in addition to our brain, because it can only work together,
[1:40:58 - 1:41:06] ▶
because the AI will not be trained on anything else that it doesn't know.
[1:41:06 - 1:41:12] ▶
But the brain will be able to detect something that is different and will be able to train the AI.
[1:41:12 - 1:41:18] ▶
So it will always have to be an augmented brain that will be allowed with the AI.
[1:41:18 - 1:41:25] ▶
But I think our brain will always be necessary.
[1:41:25 - 1:41:28] ▶
I don't know about mine.
[1:41:30 - 1:41:31] ▶
We should never rely on AI, solely AI, because people never see anything else.
[1:41:31 - 1:41:39] ▶
I think there's something very powerful, though, in what she said, if you extend it and take into account what I said about the negative space.
[1:41:39 - 1:41:46] ▶
We should train up an AI that is the opposite of us in every way, not like us, but the opposite of us, and ask it to look at these questions.
[1:41:46 - 1:41:57] ▶
That's a great, yeah, I love that.
[1:41:58 - 1:41:59] ▶
Train it on everything that isn't.
[1:42:02 - 1:42:03] ▶
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[1:42:04 - 1:42:05] ▶
And see what it says, because, I mean, that's the clear implication of what she's saying, where, you know, an AI can just do what we do, only better.
[1:42:05 - 1:42:13] ▶
Okay, that's useful.
[1:42:13 - 1:42:15] ▶
But an AI that can do things we cannot do and would not ever do is the one that's really going to pay off.
[1:42:15 - 1:42:21] ▶
The question is, would we ever believe it?
[1:42:21 - 1:42:23] ▶
Well, that's the problem with LLMs, is they kind of inherently triangulate, actually, the consensus.
[1:42:24 - 1:42:30] ▶
So they're going for, usually, the middle-of-the-road kind of most acceptable answer.
[1:42:30 - 1:42:35] ▶
And so if you could train a more kind of heretical thinking AI or something, you know, an AI on the bleeding edge of what's acceptable and maybe decamp it from the instinct that you were talking about, you know, even, I think, before we were filming, Eric, where people are socialized and ideas are fashion statements.
[1:42:36 - 1:42:55] ▶
And, you know, it's hard to truly think in a heterodox way.
[1:42:55 - 1:42:58] ▶
If you could train an AI to do that, that would be amazing.
[1:42:58 - 1:43:01] ▶
And that's why we need an increase in the research budget and not a decrease in research budget.
[1:43:02 - 1:43:07] ▶
Don't get me started.
[1:43:08 - 1:43:09] ▶
But I think research, all over the world, research is going to increase and a lot of governments are going to discover a lot of interesting things.
[1:43:10 - 1:43:21] ▶
Yeah, well, there's a great essay called The Usefulness of Useless Things.
[1:43:21 - 1:43:28] ▶
I don't know if you're familiar with it.
[1:43:29 - 1:43:30] ▶
It's by this guy, Abraham Flexner, and it was kind of the charter for the Institute of Advanced Study at Princeton back in the day.
[1:43:30 - 1:43:35] ▶
And it was all about we should pour a ton of money into things that don't have immediate use.
[1:43:36 - 1:43:42] ▶
If you think about, you know, quantum theory, which is responsible for semiconductors and, you know, a third plus of our economy today, it was like people philosophize, you know, thinking about the kookiest, weirdest stuff.
[1:43:42 - 1:43:54] ▶
And then it turns into something that's super productive.
[1:43:54 - 1:43:57] ▶
And so I agree with you.
[1:43:57 - 1:43:59] ▶
I think the idea that, you know, we should only spend money on things that are super locally useful is not only counterproductive, not only myopic, but it's actually counterproductive from like even a GDP boosting perspective.
[1:43:59 - 1:44:12] ▶
Like it's dumb politics, too.
[1:44:12 - 1:44:14] ▶
That's what we love to do with Eric.
[1:44:17 - 1:44:19] ▶
We love looking at completely outside the box of the weirdest things that are happening because we think that in the weirdest things are the clues of the future.
[1:44:19 - 1:44:30] ▶
Asimov's, that's funny.
[1:44:30 - 1:44:31] ▶
We're always interested in that.
[1:44:31 - 1:44:33] ▶
But again, we're hardcore scientists, so our interest is there, but we try to be disciplined when we look at those things.
[1:44:33 - 1:44:40] ▶
And most of them, you know, are unlikely.
[1:44:40 - 1:44:42] ▶
But there are a few, and those are the ones that really excite us.
[1:44:42 - 1:44:45] ▶
Like those Tic Tacs, there's something real going on there.
[1:44:46 - 1:44:49] ▶
I mean, there's just too many independent parallel sensors on that thing by people who didn't want to see it but saw it anyhow.
[1:44:49 - 1:44:58] ▶
And so those in particular, and so that's why in our book, The Shadow of Time, the novel, that's why the Tic Tacs show up because those in particular, we come up with a narrative of what could really be going on there.
[1:44:58 - 1:45:10] ▶
Yeah. Well, I can't wait to get to The Shadow of Time because in many ways, it is the maybe best conclusion but embodied in fiction of this survey-level overview of what you guys talk about in the new science of UFOs.
[1:45:10 - 1:45:25] ▶
And so it's this really cool thing.
[1:45:25 - 1:45:27] ▶
But I want to talk real quick on the propulsion front.
[1:45:27 - 1:45:30] ▶
I'm particularly high conviction in this thing called the Bifield-Brown effect.
[1:45:30 - 1:45:34] ▶
Have you ever heard of that?
[1:45:34 - 1:45:35] ▶
So it's this idea that you take a capacitor and you have a negative electrode, a positive electrode, and you have a high-K dielectric in the middle, which is the ability to store high electric fields.
[1:45:36 - 1:45:46] ▶
Love it when you talk dirty.
[1:45:46 - 1:45:47] ▶
And I think there's all this interesting data around this mid-century inventor, Townsend Brown, and his ability to transcend chemical combustion in this very cool way with these high-voltage experiments that he was doing with this capacitor experiment, which to me would lead to stuff that leads us beyond SpaceX.
[1:45:47 - 1:46:10] ▶
And I'm just very passionate about the idea that I think SpaceX is just limited.
[1:46:10 - 1:46:15] ▶
You know, it takes, with chemical combustion, it's 80,000 years to the next habitable planet, Proxima Centauri.
[1:46:15 - 1:46:22] ▶
And that's unacceptable.
[1:46:22 - 1:46:23] ▶
And nuclear thermal propulsion maybe cuts that in half or something.
[1:46:23 - 1:46:26] ▶
And so you need something like this.
[1:46:27 - 1:46:29] ▶
And I think it's legit.
[1:46:29 - 1:46:32] ▶
So I don't know if you guys have a take there.
[1:46:32 - 1:46:34] ▶
I know how capacitors work.
[1:46:34 - 1:46:36] ▶
I know how dielectrics work.
[1:46:36 - 1:46:37] ▶
And so in what way could this be used for propulsion?
[1:46:37 - 1:46:40] ▶
So you get thrust from the negative electrode to the positive electrode.
[1:46:41 - 1:46:47] ▶
And you could do this.
[1:46:47 - 1:46:48] ▶
Apparently, you get more thrust, actually, in a vacuum than you do in air.
[1:46:49 - 1:46:53] ▶
And a lot of people try to explain it away because the ionized air bombards.
[1:46:54 - 1:46:59] ▶
You know, the ionized wind bombards the air.
[1:46:59 - 1:47:01] ▶
And then you get this equal and opposite reaction and you get thrust.
[1:47:01 - 1:47:04] ▶
But I think you see even more thrust in a vacuum.
[1:47:05 - 1:47:07] ▶
And so you could end up with all sorts of cool space propulsion modalities.
[1:47:07 - 1:47:11] ▶
Oh, there have been things like the EM drive.
[1:47:13 - 1:47:15] ▶
But the EM drive got debunked, I think, by.
[1:47:17 - 1:47:19] ▶
It keeps getting debunked.
[1:47:20 - 1:47:21] ▶
But people keep throwing money at it anyhow.
[1:47:21 - 1:47:25] ▶
And I think this thing you're talking about has that quality.
[1:47:26 - 1:47:29] ▶
Because conservation of energy says that can't happen.
[1:47:29 - 1:47:32] ▶
Newton's law where you have to have a reaction mass in order to get thrust.
[1:47:34 - 1:47:39] ▶
In other words, you have to throw mass or energy out the back in order to move in a particular direction.
[1:47:39 - 1:47:43] ▶
And the reason I put it in the parapsychology, the thing we were talking about earlier, I put it in that camp of there's a lot of evidence that these high electric field strength differentials result in thrust.
[1:47:45 - 1:47:58] ▶
And then we just don't have good theory around it.
[1:47:58 - 1:48:00] ▶
Like, maybe there's something quantum electrodynamics we don't understand.
[1:48:00 - 1:48:03] ▶
Well, there's something interesting where there's this effect where if you take two plates, kind of like a capacitor, and they're very, very flat and very, very close together, because of quantum field, you will get the plates moving with respect to each other a tiny amount.
[1:48:04 - 1:48:24] ▶
And this has been observed in the laboratory.
[1:48:24 - 1:48:26] ▶
And, but that only works in one direction.
[1:48:29 - 1:48:31] ▶
And it's, but, yeah, I mean, it's one of these weird quantum things that is moving in the direction you're saying, because, okay, the thing we're attracted to each other, but what was the force?
[1:48:32 - 1:48:45] ▶
It's a quantum field.
[1:48:45 - 1:48:46] ▶
And that starts to get outside of, you know, the quantum realm is so bizarre.
[1:48:46 - 1:48:51] ▶
You have this guy, Sonny White, out here who's at NASA Eagle Works, and he claims that he can power up 1.5 kilovolts microchip with the Casimir effect.
[1:48:52 - 1:49:03] ▶
And so it's bizarre.
[1:49:03 - 1:49:05] ▶
And he's published this.
[1:49:05 - 1:49:06] ▶
And so I think that's so cool.
[1:49:06 - 1:49:08] ▶
You know, I don't know if it's right, but.
[1:49:08 - 1:49:09] ▶
Yeah, yo, there you go.
[1:49:10 - 1:49:12] ▶
And then one other thing on the astrobiology front is you were mentioning tardigrades and all the extremophiles.
[1:49:12 - 1:49:17] ▶
Have you guys thought of fungi or mushrooms as candidates?
[1:49:17 - 1:49:21] ▶
You know, they've been found on the International Space Station.
[1:49:22 - 1:49:24] ▶
And Francis Crick, who, of course, discovered the double helical structure of DNA.
[1:49:25 - 1:49:29] ▶
And his whole thing was like, you know, the hundred million years on Earth for DNA synthesis was impossible.
[1:49:29 - 1:49:34] ▶
Nobody's ever replicated this primordial soup experiment to create it.
[1:49:34 - 1:49:38] ▶
And so maybe you would send fungi across long distances in some sort of spaceship or something.
[1:49:38 - 1:49:45] ▶
Maybe you'd feed it algae and CO2.
[1:49:45 - 1:49:47] ▶
And the thing I like about fungi, it's so interesting.
[1:49:47 - 1:49:50] ▶
If you were to think about like a Kardashev three or four scale civilization, you wouldn't create this kind of like biological meat suit.
[1:49:50 - 1:49:59] ▶
You know, you show up as this, you know, gangly, you know, you know, bipedal being, you know, in some other planet.
[1:49:59 - 1:50:05] ▶
And you're immediately treated as a foreign invader.
[1:50:05 - 1:50:07] ▶
You would send an extremophile, which is like a zip file of consciousness.
[1:50:08 - 1:50:12] ▶
Humans all have microbiomes, but we have mycobiomes as well.
[1:50:12 - 1:50:15] ▶
So it affects our thinking.
[1:50:15 - 1:50:17] ▶
And they're extremophiles that you have, you know, cordyceps mushrooms in the Amazon kind of co-opting the actions of bullet ants.
[1:50:17 - 1:50:26] ▶
And so there's something I think very interesting.
[1:50:26 - 1:50:28] ▶
And then human tissue is very susceptible to fungal disease because it's so similar.
[1:50:28 - 1:50:35] ▶
You know, we're actually more similar to fungi than we are to most other plants and animals phylogenetically.
[1:50:35 - 1:50:41] ▶
And so it's this really interesting thing of what you would send this thing off that would like merge with the host, you know, and then it would affect their consciousness.
[1:50:41 - 1:50:50] ▶
Well, if they came here, it would be a fun guy.
[1:50:51 - 1:50:54] ▶
He'd be a load of fun.
[1:50:55 - 1:50:57] ▶
Yeah, I mean, but I want to follow that thread just a little bit.
[1:50:58 - 1:51:01] ▶
And, you know, just as we should never say they would do it the way we do it, we have to say maybe they would.
[1:51:02 - 1:51:09] ▶
And when we see in space probes, we don't send intentionally organisms.
[1:51:09 - 1:51:15] ▶
We send automated probes.
[1:51:16 - 1:51:18] ▶
And now with our AI, you know what's going to happen.
[1:51:18 - 1:51:22] ▶
We're going to be sending AIs out there because we don't have to have a life support system.
[1:51:22 - 1:51:26] ▶
We don't have to worry about any of that.
[1:51:26 - 1:51:28] ▶
And as our AI gets better and better and better, I think because, you know, Elon Musk said, we're not going to Mars after all.
[1:51:28 - 1:51:35] ▶
And I'm on the Explore Mars Foundation group.
[1:51:37 - 1:51:40] ▶
That was depressing for us because we want to explore Mars.
[1:51:41 - 1:51:43] ▶
But the fact is, we don't know how to send a human to Mars and bring him back in good shape.
[1:51:44 - 1:51:48] ▶
Radiation, low Gs and hazards on Mars and so forth.
[1:51:48 - 1:51:52] ▶
And so where all that takes you is the first thing you're going to do is not going to be biological.
[1:51:52 - 1:51:58] ▶
It's going to be AI.
[1:51:58 - 1:51:59] ▶
And so that tells us that if something has come here from another civilization, it's probably not certainly.
[1:52:00 - 1:52:06] ▶
It's probably a machine.
[1:52:06 - 1:52:08] ▶
It's probably some sort of von Neumann replicator probe or something.
[1:52:09 - 1:52:12] ▶
And that doesn't mean it's not alive because now you're getting into what is life.
[1:52:13 - 1:52:18] ▶
You know, and could an AI in a machine be alive?
[1:52:18 - 1:52:23] ▶
And this gets into what is life.
[1:52:24 - 1:52:27] ▶
And the biologists I know say it's simple.
[1:52:27 - 1:52:29] ▶
If a ball rolls downhill, it's dead.
[1:52:30 - 1:52:31] ▶
If it rolls uphill, it's alive.
[1:52:31 - 1:52:33] ▶
Meaning life is locally negentropic.
[1:52:34 - 1:52:37] ▶
It behaves, it rolls uphill.
[1:52:37 - 1:52:39] ▶
I love that definition.
[1:52:40 - 1:52:42] ▶
And so could you have an artificial machine that to all intents and purposes, you know,
[1:52:43 - 1:52:48] ▶
had maybe emotions, had feelings?
[1:52:49 - 1:52:50] ▶
We kind of have an existence proof that it could be done with atoms.
[1:52:52 - 1:52:54] ▶
It's like Maxwell's demons.
[1:52:58 - 1:52:59] ▶
Macroscopic Maxwell's demons.
[1:53:01 - 1:53:02] ▶
So the point is that when you look at these Tic Tacs and you see them moving around, you
[1:53:10 - 1:53:14] ▶
say, well, no biological being could do that.
[1:53:14 - 1:53:17] ▶
Well, maybe that's true.
[1:53:17 - 1:53:18] ▶
Maybe it's not biological.
[1:53:19 - 1:53:20] ▶
Maybe it's hardened electronics of some kind or bio, you know, something.
[1:53:20 - 1:53:24] ▶
But to me, if we're being visited by a probe from another civilization, it's probably
[1:53:25 - 1:53:30] ▶
technology, not biology.
[1:53:30 - 1:53:32] ▶
Well, there's all this lore in UFO world that the crafts are alive.
[1:53:32 - 1:53:36] ▶
And that even David Fravor, Commander David Fravor said the craft seemed to be like breathing
[1:53:36 - 1:53:40] ▶
And like looking at it.
[1:53:40 - 1:53:41] ▶
That's another possibility.
[1:53:41 - 1:53:42] ▶
Like that movie Nope, which I loved.
[1:53:42 - 1:53:44] ▶
And the cloud just doesn't move.
[1:53:48 - 1:53:50] ▶
Or, you know, as she was saying, as Dr. Gilbert was saying, what if this is worth thinking
[1:53:52 - 1:53:56] ▶
Dark matter is dark to us because it doesn't interact with us except very weakly.
[1:53:58 - 1:54:02] ▶
Or maybe not at all.
[1:54:03 - 1:54:04] ▶
So here's a flip it around.
[1:54:04 - 1:54:07] ▶
What do we look like to dark matter?
[1:54:07 - 1:54:09] ▶
If it doesn't interact with us, we don't interact with it.
[1:54:12 - 1:54:16] ▶
And so to it, we're dark matter.
[1:54:17 - 1:54:19] ▶
So what's to say it can't be alive?
[1:54:23 - 1:54:25] ▶
And so there's an example of a mind expanding idea.
[1:54:28 - 1:54:31] ▶
It's like way outside what a normal human is going to think about.
[1:54:32 - 1:54:35] ▶
Or I sometimes think about the ideas that we live in a kind of a computational universe,
[1:54:36 - 1:54:41] ▶
like the Wheeler stuff.
[1:54:41 - 1:54:42] ▶
We're in a simulation.
[1:54:42 - 1:54:42] ▶
Some sort of simulation.
[1:54:42 - 1:54:43] ▶
And then you look at Fermat's theorem, which is the travel of light, and it looks algorithmically
[1:54:43 - 1:54:47] ▶
optimized for, you know, kind of shortest path between two observers.
[1:54:47 - 1:54:52] ▶
Well, yeah, but that's kind of the path of least resistance.
[1:54:52 - 1:54:56] ▶
It's a fascinating subject of fractals and how the veins of a tree or capillaries in
[1:54:58 - 1:55:03] ▶
your body or filaments of megastructures in outer space all look the same, the highest
[1:55:03 - 1:55:09] ▶
level down to the lowest level.
[1:55:09 - 1:55:10] ▶
And it's the path of least resistance.
[1:55:10 - 1:55:12] ▶
That's why those structures exist.
[1:55:13 - 1:55:15] ▶
Because if you're trying to move atoms of water from A to B in the most efficient path
[1:55:15 - 1:55:21] ▶
with the least energy, that is the path.
[1:55:21 - 1:55:23] ▶
But then, I don't know, you think of if I were simulating something, I would copy code
[1:55:23 - 1:55:30] ▶
chunks and then you'd get Fibonacci sequences and golden ratios and some of these things that
[1:55:30 - 1:55:36] ▶
seem like consistent architectures.
[1:55:36 - 1:55:38] ▶
See, that is so fascinating.
[1:55:38 - 1:55:40] ▶
These mathematical things like Fibonacci and fractals and holography and things like that,
[1:55:40 - 1:55:46] ▶
where math isn't a property of the universe.
[1:55:47 - 1:55:50] ▶
It doesn't describe the universe.
[1:55:50 - 1:55:52] ▶
I mean, but now you're getting into Wolfram philosophical kind of stuff.
[1:55:54 - 1:55:58] ▶
And that's above my pay grade.
[1:55:58 - 1:56:00] ▶
Well, I want to talk about this amazing book, The Shadow of Time, which you guys should
[1:56:01 - 1:56:06] ▶
It is just fascinating.
[1:56:07 - 1:56:09] ▶
And I don't want to spoil it for people.
[1:56:09 - 1:56:11] ▶
So I think high level, it talks about an object that should not be found in the desert.
[1:56:12 - 1:56:18] ▶
That is a total kind of anachronism and involves kind of seemingly like, you know, elements or
[1:56:18 - 1:56:27] ▶
things that like, you know, shouldn't exist on earth and look more advanced than, you know,
[1:56:27 - 1:56:32] ▶
And a very kind of doggedly persistent paleontologist who is kind of pursuing this stuff and finds himself, honestly, in like a mafia war or something.
[1:56:33 - 1:56:45] ▶
Like it's this wild, wild west landscape of people fighting for this forbidden archaeology.
[1:56:45 - 1:56:51] ▶
And as somebody who's mired in UFO world, I think there might be some truth in fiction here.
[1:56:51 - 1:56:58] ▶
Well, what was our motivation?
[1:56:59 - 1:57:01] ▶
I think that's very important for the readers to understand.
[1:57:01 - 1:57:04] ▶
We finished The New Science of UFOs, which was a kind of intellectual exercise in the art of the possible and not impossible.
[1:57:04 - 1:57:14] ▶
And what we wanted to do is basically tell that same story in a way that would be more accessible to people and to tell it from the point of view of interesting people and characters who had problems in their lives and make the science part of the story so that it became clues.
[1:57:14 - 1:57:37] ▶
And so as scientists, we will tell you that there's nothing more exciting than embarking on a scientific journey of discovery, solving a mystery and peeling back the onion one layer at a time and seeing something new and unexpected beneath, which only takes you deeper and deeper and deeper.
[1:57:37 - 1:57:54] ▶
So in addition to exploring the science of UFOs, we wanted to give the readers the feeling of what it's like to go on a journey of scientific discovery.
[1:57:55 - 1:58:04] ▶
And so one thing that happens in this book, you might remember, especially at the end, is there's a bunch of twists and turns like switchbacks up Mount Everest, right?
[1:58:04 - 1:58:14] ▶
It's like it's kind of like a whiplash, like, oh, that's true.
[1:58:14 - 1:58:17] ▶
Well, in science, that's what really happens, where you dig deep and you get answers that you weren't looking for that lead you to questions you weren't going to ask.
[1:58:18 - 1:58:30] ▶
And so at the end, there's this kind of rapid fire series of reveals of deeper and deeper truths where what you thought just a week ago is now today's illusion.
[1:58:30 - 1:58:43] ▶
And you turn one illusion into one fact until you finally get to something that's close to the truth.
[1:58:43 - 1:58:50] ▶
And that's what science is like.
[1:58:50 - 1:58:52] ▶
So we have a lot of twists and turns on purpose, and all of those are science driven.
[1:58:52 - 1:58:57] ▶
So there's a pretty much most of the science that was in the new science of UFOs is in here.
[1:58:58 - 1:59:03] ▶
But it's used to tell a story about people who are trying to overcome obstacles and rise above themselves.
[1:59:03 - 1:59:10] ▶
Yeah, so we wanted to put a lot of science in there, but we wanted it to be exciting, and we wanted it to be a mystery.
[1:59:10 - 1:59:20] ▶
And we wanted the reader to do the discovery themselves and to be completely caught in the actions.
[1:59:20 - 1:59:30] ▶
What's going to happen next?
[1:59:30 - 1:59:32] ▶
What's going to happen next?
[1:59:32 - 1:59:33] ▶
And all this is deep into the science that we have studied for the other book.
[1:59:33 - 1:59:38] ▶
Yeah, and there's a lot of biology in there, a lot of exobiology.
[1:59:38 - 1:59:42] ▶
There's a lot of neuroscience.
[1:59:42 - 1:59:43] ▶
Neuroscience is very important.
[1:59:44 - 1:59:45] ▶
I am a neuroscientist, and I'm really interested in species that are radically different from us.
[1:59:45 - 1:59:51] ▶
And I would commend to people to read this book called An Immense World by Ed Young,
[1:59:52 - 1:59:56] ▶
in which he describes what he calls the Umwelt, a worldview of these exotic creatures like fish that have electric fields and sense electric fields, snakes.
[1:59:56 - 2:00:06] ▶
I got my PhD on snakes, rattlesnakes and pythons that see infrared, they see in the dark.
[2:00:06 - 2:00:12] ▶
Mantis shrimp that see 12 different colors that we don't see.
[2:00:13 - 2:00:16] ▶
And I've been especially interested in that phenomena of organisms whose worldview and way of thinking and neuroanatomy is so radically different from ours.
[2:00:17 - 2:00:28] ▶
They cannot be like us.
[2:00:28 - 2:00:30] ▶
And so that's exploring the negative space of the human condition.
[2:00:30 - 2:00:34] ▶
So the main, I guess, villain, you want to call it in this story, not exactly a villain, but is about as opposite a human as you could get.
[2:00:34 - 2:00:45] ▶
I mean, in every way, this creature is about as different from us as you can get.
[2:00:46 - 2:00:51] ▶
And the interactions between these completely alien us and them kinds of organisms, contrast creates conflict, which makes things interesting.
[2:00:52 - 2:01:07] ▶
When each discovers their own limitations when looking through the world through the other's eyes.
[2:01:07 - 2:01:13] ▶
And so we spent a lot of time and there's a lot of hardcore neuroscience in the way this creature is defined.
[2:01:13 - 2:01:21] ▶
And in some of the other characters, there's a lot of the kind of animal dimension.
[2:01:21 - 2:01:27] ▶
I studied in my PhD work and later a lot of animal intelligence.
[2:01:27 - 2:01:33] ▶
And my conclusion from studying animals is that they're way smarter than we think they are.
[2:01:33 - 2:01:39] ▶
They're just not smart in ways that we're smart.
[2:01:39 - 2:01:42] ▶
And this is what Ed Young is saying in his book.
[2:01:44 - 2:01:47] ▶
And so there are two creatures in this story.
[2:01:47 - 2:01:51] ▶
One is a genius parrot named Walter.
[2:01:52 - 2:01:54] ▶
Who is not a nice character.
[2:01:55 - 2:01:57] ▶
Kind of like Iago in Aladdin.
[2:01:58 - 2:02:00] ▶
Kind of like that kind of character.
[2:02:00 - 2:02:02] ▶
And Walter is this genius parrot.
[2:02:02 - 2:02:04] ▶
And if you think about it, humans can be geniuses relative to other humans.
[2:02:04 - 2:02:08] ▶
Why couldn't an African gray parrot be a genius relative to other parrots?
[2:02:09 - 2:02:13] ▶
And where would that take you?
[2:02:13 - 2:02:14] ▶
So that's what you have in Walter.
[2:02:15 - 2:02:16] ▶
And then there's this other creature we won't say too much about, who's the kind of the villain, who's a fascinating study in what we are not.
[2:02:16 - 2:02:24] ▶
That other creature, which, yeah, we won't talk too much about, is just fascinating.
[2:02:24 - 2:02:30] ▶
And I think what you said is so true that questions grow at an exponent of your knowledge.
[2:02:30 - 2:02:37] ▶
So you continue on the search.
[2:02:37 - 2:02:39] ▶
You build up these kind of layers of knowledge.
[2:02:39 - 2:02:41] ▶
But then the questions grow exponentially more.
[2:02:41 - 2:02:44] ▶
And I think it really touches on the idea with the phenomenon that this book and the movie Arrival also kind of does a good job of this.
[2:02:44 - 2:02:53] ▶
It's weirder than you can think.
[2:02:53 - 2:02:56] ▶
And it's not only weirder than you can think.
[2:02:56 - 2:02:57] ▶
And I think there's an Arthur C. Clarke quote about this.
[2:02:57 - 2:02:59] ▶
It's weirder than you can think.
[2:02:59 - 2:03:01] ▶
It's weirder than you can even imagine.
[2:03:01 - 2:03:03] ▶
And you also explore a hypothesis that I'm pretty sympathetic to, which is the Silurian hypothesis.
[2:03:03 - 2:03:10] ▶
This idea of what we're calling aliens.
[2:03:11 - 2:03:15] ▶
We're calling them extraterrestrials.
[2:03:15 - 2:03:17] ▶
But maybe they've been cohabiting with us on Earth for a while.
[2:03:17 - 2:03:21] ▶
That's a possibility or maybe not.
[2:03:21 - 2:03:24] ▶
And, you know, really any story is about a person who sets out to do something they want only to discover that what they need is something very different and to confront and overcome their own limitations.
[2:03:24 - 2:03:38] ▶
And this is what the story is really about.
[2:03:39 - 2:03:42] ▶
It's about this paleontologist who starts off in deep trouble.
[2:03:42 - 2:03:45] ▶
He's been fired from his job at UCLA.
[2:03:45 - 2:03:48] ▶
His mother has got a severe chronic illness.
[2:03:49 - 2:03:52] ▶
He lives in the way back of beyond Trona, which is where I was born and near where I grew up.
[2:03:52 - 2:03:57] ▶
So I'm very familiar with what it's like to come from nothing in that part of the world.
[2:03:57 - 2:04:03] ▶
And he finds in pursuit of the science of what he's pursuing because he makes a discovery.
[2:04:03 - 2:04:11] ▶
He goes into the garage because he wants to sell his dad's collection of Native American art just to get a little money.
[2:04:11 - 2:04:17] ▶
And he discovers something there that's like, whoa.
[2:04:17 - 2:04:20] ▶
He discovers an artifact that a dealer tells him is priceless, but he can't sell it because of various reasons.
[2:04:20 - 2:04:26] ▶
And so his science brain kicks in and it leads him on this journey of external discovery.
[2:04:26 - 2:04:31] ▶
But more important, it takes him on a journey of internal discovery.
[2:04:31 - 2:04:35] ▶
And I want to emphasize that because what we want the readers to come out of this at the end, and one reason we have so many reveals at the end, is to make people question their own perception of reality in their own lives.
[2:04:35 - 2:04:49] ▶
To have a healthy dose of yo, maybe yes, maybe no, because in all of our lives, we see things and assume things that just aren't true.
[2:04:49 - 2:05:00] ▶
And so in a sense, the book is about a character, but in a sense, it's about all of the readers too.
[2:05:01 - 2:05:07] ▶
Because each reader is going to bring their own needs and wants, their own obstacles, and we want to leave them with a gift.
[2:05:08 - 2:05:16] ▶
We want to leave them with that ability to look at the world very differently than when they started the book.
[2:05:16 - 2:05:22] ▶
Well, I think it achieves that.
[2:05:23 - 2:05:24] ▶
And I was just, I loved it.
[2:05:24 - 2:05:27] ▶
I couldn't take my eyes away and was just fascinated by, I mean, you're asking these kind of second and third order questions.
[2:05:27 - 2:05:34] ▶
It's not your garden variety, you know, book about these topics.
[2:05:34 - 2:05:38] ▶
Another thing you kind of touch on, another theme, without giving away too much, is this idea that there are these almost gang wars going on for this forbidden archaeology.
[2:05:38 - 2:05:50] ▶
And there's like a blackmail network involved.
[2:05:50 - 2:05:54] ▶
And this stuff, you know, around, you know, these kind of mystical objects aren't, they're not being retrieved in these sort of above board ways.
[2:05:54 - 2:06:05] ▶
Which, to me, again, kind of comports with a lot of my study of the UFO stuff in the open source world.
[2:06:05 - 2:06:12] ▶
It's like, it is the wild, wild west.
[2:06:12 - 2:06:14] ▶
There's a lot of private mercenary action around this stuff.
[2:06:14 - 2:06:17] ▶
And it's not, and it's a lot of plausible deniability where you have the fingertips aren't attached to the arm, so to speak.
[2:06:17 - 2:06:24] ▶
And they can get severed at any time.
[2:06:24 - 2:06:26] ▶
And it's way weirder than you'd ever expect.
[2:06:26 - 2:06:30] ▶
It's weird, and you know that gritty texture of reality is how weird it is.
[2:06:30 - 2:06:34] ▶
There's a lot of the intelligence world in this.
[2:06:35 - 2:06:38] ▶
Because, you know, they say, write about what you know.
[2:06:38 - 2:06:40] ▶
And I'm a neuroscientist, and I was a spy.
[2:06:40 - 2:06:42] ▶
And so it's really an espionage novel, too.
[2:06:42 - 2:06:45] ▶
And the intelligence tradecraft that's in there is real.
[2:06:46 - 2:06:50] ▶
And the way intelligence officers think of problems.
[2:06:52 - 2:06:55] ▶
And also, when you get to the very top, because one of the characters is the FBI director.
[2:06:55 - 2:06:59] ▶
And what is the FBI director in this story concerned with?
[2:07:00 - 2:07:03] ▶
Protecting the FBI at all costs.
[2:07:03 - 2:07:05] ▶
And I will tell you, having been at that level in the government, you know what we really spend our time on?
[2:07:07 - 2:07:13] ▶
Okay, this thing happened.
[2:07:15 - 2:07:16] ▶
How do we spin it to the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post?
[2:07:16 - 2:07:20] ▶
How do we spin it and turn a negative into a positive with Congress?
[2:07:20 - 2:07:24] ▶
What are we going to tell the OMB, the Office of Management and Budget, so they grow our budget?
[2:07:24 - 2:07:29] ▶
And how do we take down a rival using this?
[2:07:30 - 2:07:33] ▶
That's all we spend our time on.
[2:07:33 - 2:07:35] ▶
At the very top of the government.
[2:07:36 - 2:07:37] ▶
I guarantee you, that is what happens.
[2:07:37 - 2:07:39] ▶
And so that's what happens with the FBI director.
[2:07:40 - 2:07:42] ▶
You know, when you see that woman and how she interacts and how cynical she is and how pragmatic and self-serving, that is real.
[2:07:43 - 2:07:53] ▶
That is a synthesis of real people that I have known.
[2:07:53 - 2:07:56] ▶
And so it's a glimpse, just like the new science of UFO is a glimpse inside the mind of an intelligence analyst.
[2:07:58 - 2:08:05] ▶
And any other time, that was all open source data.
[2:08:05 - 2:08:08] ▶
So it's unclassified.
[2:08:09 - 2:08:10] ▶
But you're seeing exactly what happens in the super secret world of intelligence analysis.
[2:08:10 - 2:08:15] ▶
I've exposed it in that book.
[2:08:15 - 2:08:17] ▶
And in the novel, I expose the politics and the sausage mating and all the dirty dealing that happens under the hood in the intelligence world.
[2:08:17 - 2:08:27] ▶
And there is a lot of psychology in there because we also like psychology and we like to put our people in trouble.
[2:08:29 - 2:08:39] ▶
So our paleontologist is also a troubled person inside himself.
[2:08:39 - 2:08:47] ▶
The love interest has also some flaws and she's also in her own way troubled.
[2:08:47 - 2:08:54] ▶
They're layer under layer under layer in the way they are, who they are.
[2:08:54 - 2:09:00] ▶
And also the creature is also, has also layers inside itself.
[2:09:00 - 2:09:06] ▶
So there's a lot of psychology in there.
[2:09:07 - 2:09:09] ▶
So it's a very complex, intricate bit with all those flavors in there.
[2:09:11 - 2:09:16] ▶
Well, I should also say I was a psychotherapist for a while and Freud said something really true.
[2:09:17 - 2:09:25] ▶
What you see on the outside is the opposite of what's on the inside.
[2:09:25 - 2:09:28] ▶
If you see a really hard, tough exterior, it's protecting a soft inner side where someone who's very centered and isn't very aggressive
[2:09:28 - 2:09:37] ▶
or doesn't have to talk a lot or whatever, they're very solid inside very often.
[2:09:37 - 2:09:42] ▶
They're very centered.
[2:09:42 - 2:09:43] ▶
And so we have these two characters, the main character and his love interest, and they both present kind of the opposite on the outside of what's really going on.
[2:09:44 - 2:09:54] ▶
And so through their relationship, you start to see that the layers peel back.
[2:09:54 - 2:09:59] ▶
And at the end, at the climax, if you will, both metaphorically, they kind of expose the vulnerable side of themselves to each other, which is an emotional growth for the two of them.
[2:09:59 - 2:10:12] ▶
But I think, and what this comes out in the, we'll call them the romantic scenes.
[2:10:13 - 2:10:19] ▶
And the love story is something very unique between the two of them.
[2:10:20 - 2:10:24] ▶
Something like I've seldom seen anywhere described the progression of the love story, the beats.
[2:10:24 - 2:10:31] ▶
It's very unique, but it's very tasty.
[2:10:32 - 2:10:35] ▶
There's a lot of subtle tastes in there because the taste of extraterrestrials, of love, of psychology, of what's happening in the intelligence world, how to aim at somebody with a gun.
[2:10:35 - 2:10:52] ▶
I mean, there are so many different details, different flavors.
[2:10:52 - 2:10:57] ▶
I think it's very, very tasty.
[2:10:57 - 2:10:58] ▶
Well, what she's referring to is I took this long novel writing class, which I had to produce a novel, and the teacher says, the number one thing you have to do is create a character that the reader instantly cares about and put them in trouble so they care about what happens and want to turn the page.
[2:10:58 - 2:11:14] ▶
And that's absolutely what we do.
[2:11:14 - 2:11:15] ▶
But she says you have to put texture in there, the gritty feel of reality to make it authentic.
[2:11:16 - 2:11:22] ▶
And so things I learned in the intelligence world, I put in there that I could.
[2:11:22 - 2:11:26] ▶
For example, I had to carry a weapon, right?
[2:11:26 - 2:11:31] ▶
And so I had to qualify on the range, and I had to shoot three or four times to keep my scores up a week, right?
[2:11:31 - 2:11:37] ▶
And so I'm over at CIA, and this case officer, hardcore, what you'd think of as a spy, he goes, Eric, that's bullshit.
[2:11:37 - 2:11:44] ▶
You're going downrange.
[2:11:44 - 2:11:45] ▶
I mean, I was going to Iraq, and I had to carry an M4 and a Beretta.
[2:11:45 - 2:11:48] ▶
And he said, don't use any of that.
[2:11:49 - 2:11:51] ▶
The first time you shoot for real because you've shot on the range,
[2:11:52 - 2:11:55] ▶
And you hear it, and you're going to be shocked at the moment.
[2:11:57 - 2:12:00] ▶
You most need to have your senses with you.
[2:12:00 - 2:12:02] ▶
So you need to shoot without your hearing so that you're not shocked the first time you hear it.
[2:12:03 - 2:12:08] ▶
He said, that's the real world.
[2:12:08 - 2:12:09] ▶
He said, the second thing is this business of a Weber stance and lining up the rear sight.
[2:12:09 - 2:12:13] ▶
You take your pointing finger, and you lay it along the barrel,
[2:12:15 - 2:12:19] ▶
and you take your index finger, and you put it in the trigger.
[2:12:19 - 2:12:24] ▶
So when you want to point at something to shoot at it, you point with your pointing finger
[2:12:24 - 2:12:27] ▶
because you've done that your whole life.
[2:12:27 - 2:12:29] ▶
You're going to be really accurate.
[2:12:29 - 2:12:30] ▶
And don't worry about squeezing.
[2:12:31 - 2:12:32] ▶
Just pull off as many as you can, center a mass.
[2:12:32 - 2:12:34] ▶
And he said, that's the real world.
[2:12:35 - 2:12:37] ▶
So that's something I learned in my intelligence training that I share with the readers.
[2:12:37 - 2:12:41] ▶
That's the real world.
[2:12:42 - 2:12:43] ▶
That's what really happens.
[2:12:43 - 2:12:45] ▶
Like if you get in a gunfight, which is more than in Iraq,
[2:12:45 - 2:12:49] ▶
we would shoot just to keep their heads down to create muzzle flashes.
[2:12:49 - 2:12:52] ▶
If you really have to shoot at something, you don't shoot at it the way you do on the range.
[2:12:52 - 2:12:56] ▶
So it's details like that that we put in there that are, I guess, what I'd call bonuses.
[2:12:56 - 2:13:02] ▶
No, they're all these clearly nuggets just based on your own real world experience.
[2:13:03 - 2:13:09] ▶
But then it's also just fascinating through a fiction lens.
[2:13:09 - 2:13:12] ▶
So, I mean, the other thing that resonated with me was this idea of sort of breakaway science
[2:13:12 - 2:13:18] ▶
or forbidden archaeology being housed in private corporations.
[2:13:18 - 2:13:22] ▶
I found that very interesting and possibly dovetailing with things we've seen in the real world.
[2:13:22 - 2:13:29] ▶
Well, it's funny you mention that because I'm still very connected to the national security world.
[2:13:29 - 2:13:34] ▶
And there's something happening there that's extraordinary,
[2:13:34 - 2:13:37] ▶
which is instead of the government saying, here's what we need,
[2:13:37 - 2:13:41] ▶
we're going to pay you defense companies to invent it.
[2:13:41 - 2:13:44] ▶
You're getting companies like Palantir and Andrual and Ursus rockets,
[2:13:44 - 2:13:50] ▶
or some major rockets where they're saying, we're going to get venture capital money.
[2:13:50 - 2:13:53] ▶
We're going to invent cool stuff way faster than you could.
[2:13:53 - 2:13:56] ▶
And we're going to say, here it is.
[2:13:56 - 2:13:57] ▶
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[2:13:57 - 2:13:58] ▶
And so the military R&D that's going on is happening outside the military in Silicon Valley.
[2:13:58 - 2:14:04] ▶
Yeah, right, right, right.
[2:14:04 - 2:14:06] ▶
And you're seeing this happen with, you know,
[2:14:06 - 2:14:09] ▶
Anthropic and the Defense Department and so forth.
[2:14:09 - 2:14:12] ▶
And so that is exactly what's happening right now.
[2:14:12 - 2:14:16] ▶
No, it's fascinating.
[2:14:17 - 2:14:18] ▶
I think those companies you mentioned, like Anduril, for example,
[2:14:18 - 2:14:22] ▶
is a reaction to Lockheed and Northrop where they have their cost plus models.
[2:14:23 - 2:14:28] ▶
And so they will, you know, charge extra for doing, you know, less sometimes.
[2:14:29 - 2:14:34] ▶
And so Anduril's like, we're going to actually take the risk burden and the financial burden.
[2:14:35 - 2:14:40] ▶
We're going to innovate and build something you don't even know you need.
[2:14:40 - 2:14:43] ▶
And, you know, try to make it work, which in some ways, I think if you're a taxpayer,
[2:14:43 - 2:14:48] ▶
you should be kind of grateful for.
[2:14:48 - 2:14:49] ▶
And then, yeah, maybe there are some other, you know, issues we have to think about when it comes to it.
[2:14:50 - 2:14:54] ▶
So truth in advertising, I have a relationship with Lockheed that I must disclose,
[2:14:54 - 2:14:58] ▶
which makes me, you know, have to be careful about what I say.
[2:14:59 - 2:15:02] ▶
But there's two sides to every story.
[2:15:02 - 2:15:04] ▶
If a defense contractor like Lockheed or Northrop or RTX is doing something,
[2:15:06 - 2:15:10] ▶
it's for one reason and one reason only.
[2:15:10 - 2:15:12] ▶
Their customer told them to do it.
[2:15:12 - 2:15:14] ▶
They don't do things just to, you know, add to their profit and so forth.
[2:15:14 - 2:15:20] ▶
In fact, those businesses aren't very profitable when you look at profit margin.
[2:15:20 - 2:15:24] ▶
They have to only make between 10% and 15% maximum on a cost plus.
[2:15:24 - 2:15:28] ▶
Their profit margins are not good at all.
[2:15:28 - 2:15:30] ▶
Their return on capital can be pretty big because the government can pay for some of the capital.
[2:15:30 - 2:15:34] ▶
But generally speaking, they're not high multiples.
[2:15:35 - 2:15:38] ▶
They're very low multiples.
[2:15:39 - 2:15:40] ▶
That's for sure true.
[2:15:40 - 2:15:41] ▶
And the reason is they're not big growth.
[2:15:41 - 2:15:43] ▶
And so they don't really rip off people consciously.
[2:15:44 - 2:15:49] ▶
That's not at all what happens.
[2:15:49 - 2:15:50] ▶
It's the government says, when you do procurement, you have to do it this way.
[2:15:51 - 2:15:56] ▶
And when you do cost accounting, you have to do it this way.
[2:15:56 - 2:15:59] ▶
And you have to do this, that, and the other.
[2:16:00 - 2:16:01] ▶
And when you add up the slowness and the cost, it's because that's what the government is.
[2:16:02 - 2:16:07] ▶
It's slow and it's expensive.
[2:16:07 - 2:16:08] ▶
And really, you could kind of look at these companies and say they're more like part of the government.
[2:16:08 - 2:16:13] ▶
And the way Mikoyan or Kalashnikov or Sukhoi is really part of the Russian, you know.
[2:16:14 - 2:16:20] ▶
And so they're really just replicas of the government.
[2:16:20 - 2:16:23] ▶
And so the problem is that the U.S. is falling behind China and Russia and Iran in some cases, in hypersonics.
[2:16:24 - 2:16:31] ▶
And it's saying we can't have this.
[2:16:31 - 2:16:32] ▶
We can't fall behind China.
[2:16:33 - 2:16:34] ▶
Everything is dual use because the government is everything.
[2:16:34 - 2:16:37] ▶
So they're turning to Silicon Valley to do faster.
[2:16:37 - 2:16:40] ▶
And they're relaxing the rules for them.
[2:16:41 - 2:16:44] ▶
They don't have to follow the same rules.
[2:16:44 - 2:16:46] ▶
That the Lockheeds do.
[2:16:46 - 2:16:48] ▶
So I wouldn't be so harsh on the defense companies because they basically are doing what they're told to do.
[2:16:48 - 2:16:55] ▶
Well, I also think they have a lot of really interesting frameworks and things they've discovered that they maybe haven't successfully scaled up all the time.
[2:16:55 - 2:17:05] ▶
But because they have decades of, you know, a head start on a lot of these kind of new Silicon Valley companies, I'd love to see kind of less loss of information between some of these aerospace graybeards at those companies and some of these newer companies.
[2:17:05 - 2:17:19] ▶
I think that's, you know.
[2:17:19 - 2:17:20] ▶
You know how that's happening?
[2:17:20 - 2:17:21] ▶
How is that happening?
[2:17:21 - 2:17:22] ▶
Where do you think Anderil's hiring?
[2:17:22 - 2:17:24] ▶
Technology walks on two legs.
[2:17:27 - 2:17:29] ▶
Like if you want a rocket scientist.
[2:17:31 - 2:17:33] ▶
You know, and you can pay them, you know, double what Lockheed can pay them.
[2:17:34 - 2:17:38] ▶
So they're just poaching.
[2:17:38 - 2:17:39] ▶
Gee, where do you think those people are coming from?
[2:17:39 - 2:17:41] ▶
The prime contractors.
[2:17:41 - 2:17:41] ▶
And that's not all a bad thing.
[2:17:43 - 2:17:45] ▶
So, you know, I think that the bottom line of all human behavior is you get the behavior you reward.
[2:17:47 - 2:17:53] ▶
And if you look at the way our defense industry behaves today is because that's what they get rewarded for.
[2:17:54 - 2:17:58] ▶
And if they don't, they get punished.
[2:17:58 - 2:17:59] ▶
And so it's completely, you know, they are so exquisitely tuned into their customer.
[2:18:00 - 2:18:05] ▶
That's all they're going to do is what their customer wants them to do.
[2:18:07 - 2:18:09] ▶
What on the UFO front, you have all this lore of like the Lockheeds and Northrop's engaging in crash retrievals and not having proper supervision or oversight when it comes to the government.
[2:18:10 - 2:18:21] ▶
Do you take any of that stuff seriously or?
[2:18:21 - 2:18:24] ▶
I'll just say it's beyond my experience.
[2:18:25 - 2:18:27] ▶
I know nothing about any of that.
[2:18:27 - 2:18:28] ▶
And I'm not just saying that.
[2:18:28 - 2:18:29] ▶
I I've never heard anything.
[2:18:32 - 2:18:33] ▶
There's this funny thing where I interview, you know, I interviewed this guy, Rolf Mowat Larson, who he spoke about.
[2:18:33 - 2:18:39] ▶
I think, you know, him and, you know, I interviewed you and I interviewed a bunch of people who I respect from government circles and they know nothing about the UFO stuff.
[2:18:39 - 2:18:47] ▶
And I take it face value that they know nothing about the UFO stuff.
[2:18:47 - 2:18:50] ▶
And sometimes they'll go even farther.
[2:18:51 - 2:18:52] ▶
And he said, if I did know, I would like a thousand percent, you know, publicize my knowledge on this stuff.
[2:18:53 - 2:19:00] ▶
And to me, it's like because a lot of the people I do interview seem to know a ton about this stuff.
[2:19:00 - 2:19:07] ▶
And I would love some wave function collapse to occur where it's like, let's get in a room or something.
[2:19:07 - 2:19:12] ▶
I don't know what it is, but I'd love to understand ground truth on this on this whole thing.
[2:19:13 - 2:19:18] ▶
And I'm sure games are being played.
[2:19:18 - 2:19:20] ▶
I think that the issue where I would challenge my audience is they assume that games are being played from the people that take your stance.
[2:19:20 - 2:19:29] ▶
And I think they should actively be thinking about possible games being played on the pro UFO side.
[2:19:29 - 2:19:35] ▶
You know, and I, that's, I don't know, you know.
[2:19:35 - 2:19:39] ▶
Well, look, the way things are compartmented inside the government, it is entirely probable that there were things I had no idea were going on.
[2:19:39 - 2:19:48] ▶
So the fact that I, in theory, could have known means nothing.
[2:19:49 - 2:19:53] ▶
You know, for one thing, you know, I once, I was a super user, so I had to get exposed to all these compartmented programs at the Pentagon.
[2:19:53 - 2:19:59] ▶
And it was like Clockwork Orange, where they clamped open my eyelids and made me look at this stuff for a whole day.
[2:19:59 - 2:20:05] ▶
And I don't remember any of it, but there was nothing about UFOs in there.
[2:20:05 - 2:20:08] ▶
Well, they should have recruited you because this book, it feels like you're as deep as anyone on this stuff.
[2:20:09 - 2:20:14] ▶
I mean, I've made it my, well, both of us have kind of, you know, fascinated by this, but it's because we're drawn to the that's funny.
[2:20:15 - 2:20:25] ▶
And like I say, this book, The Shadow of Time, is really kind of taking people on a journey that they wouldn't ordinarily go on, like in other science fiction, because we're not really science fiction writers.
[2:20:26 - 2:20:39] ▶
We're hardcore scientists.
[2:20:39 - 2:20:41] ▶
I mean, hardcore scientists.
[2:20:41 - 2:20:42] ▶
And so, although there's some speculation in here about what isn't impossible.
[2:20:43 - 2:20:48] ▶
Uh, the journey is very authentic.
[2:20:49 - 2:20:51] ▶
The, you know, because all of us in science who've gotten really into things, we have whiplash from thinking, oh, well, that's the case.
[2:20:52 - 2:20:59] ▶
And we run toward that and go, okay, that's true.
[2:20:59 - 2:21:01] ▶
We get closer to it and we go, ooh, that isn't true.
[2:21:02 - 2:21:04] ▶
Well, then this is the case.
[2:21:04 - 2:21:05] ▶
And you go back and forth.
[2:21:06 - 2:21:06] ▶
And so this whiplash that happens in the last chapter is real.
[2:21:06 - 2:21:10] ▶
That's what happens to real scientists who are really open to what's happening.
[2:21:10 - 2:21:15] ▶
It's, I mean, the truth is always much stranger than fiction often.
[2:21:16 - 2:21:20] ▶
So, um, we were mentioning actually before we were rolling that, you know, you worked at Hughes Aircraft and you were doing stuff around flight simulation.
[2:21:20 - 2:21:29] ▶
And, uh, you obviously have a neuroscience background and I brought up Donald Hoffman and you were like, oh yeah, I worked with that guy.
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And he's now, I don't know if you know this, he's like all the rage on podcast circuits for his, uh, idea that we don't, it's not adaptive evolutionarily for us to see, uh, base reality.
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And so we create these icons in our mind and it's, he's created this whole kind of math, you know, underpinning to that.
[2:21:47 - 2:21:53] ▶
Um, so I found that fascinating.
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Have you ever heard of, um, anything around like being able to fly a craft with, with your mind?
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I would think that that would be well, it's funny.
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Um, up until 2020, I was still working for Disney as a contractor and I worked in their accelerator where we funded startups and owned a piece of them and then nurtured and coached them.
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And one of them was a, uh, uh, uh, brain sensing company that, uh, had, uh, a game.
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Well, it was for health for, they had it for health, but what we wanted to do is have brain controlled game experiences.
[2:22:34 - 2:22:40] ▶
And so, uh, do you remember rocking the rock that rocks?
[2:22:41 - 2:22:44] ▶
So I worked with them and in the lab, we invented a rock that you could move with your mind and steer around on the floor.
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We called him Rocky and it worked.
[2:22:53 - 2:22:55] ▶
I mean, that never made it to market.
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Like, you know, one 10th of 1% of the stuff we do in R and D ever.
[2:22:58 - 2:23:01] ▶
What was the neuroscience behind it?
[2:23:02 - 2:23:04] ▶
Well, it was basically, uh, AI or really more machine learning looking at, uh, surface potentials, EEG type potentials, not even evoked response,
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but just basically kind of consciously controlled EEG.
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And, um, so you put this thing on, which, uh, kind of looks like the old Superman brainiac thing.
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You know, with a, with a little sensor pods, uh, two frontal, two, uh, mastoid.
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And then I think there were two over the, uh, parietal lobe.
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So I think a total of six nodes.
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And, um, you know, you go through the normal calibration and then I guess it's kind of like biofeedback training.
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Where you look at the rock and then you will the rock to move forward.
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And the, the machine learning interprets your signals.
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And then over time you could have it go forward and back, left and right.
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And, uh, you know, it was cool.
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I mean, it was freaky.
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I'll tell you something, you know, when I see a rock move, when I told it to move only with my mind.
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Now here's the thing.
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You were picking up brainwave signals, but we're also picking up electromyogram from scalp muscles.
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And from maybe eye muscles and, and, and facial muscles.
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So was it brainwaves or was it muscle action or both?
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That's so interesting.
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The, the, in a way it didn't matter because we didn't care.
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We just wanted to create an experience where someone could actually.
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And now there have been toys sold on the market.
[2:24:39 - 2:24:43] ▶
Like there's the levitating ping pong ball toy.
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Where there's an air column with a little fan.
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And you control the fan velocity with your brain.
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And so you put on the CEG thing and you think, rise, rise.
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And you train and your brain learns how to levitate the ping pong ball.
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You know, at one time you could buy that on the market.
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So there you have it.
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Um, could you do this with a drone?
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You could do it with a drone.
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Now, if you use the magnetoencephalography.
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Like these squid based things.
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You could really do it.
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You could definitely control pretty much anything.
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Um, there was this guy, um, who I had give a talk at the Aspen Institute.
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Who, uh, there's two, there's Donahoe and this guy at, uh, Duke.
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Who, um, implant electrodes in the brain of people who, uh, are paralyzed.
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And they control a robot arm with their brain.
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And they train him to play video games.
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And they train the guy to, uh, walk.
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With an exoskeleton.
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With a neural implant.
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So absolutely, absolutely, uh, this can be done today.
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Where, where do you guys, you know, net out on the UFO issue?
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Obviously, there are themes in the shadow of time that, to me, might represent your kind
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of net assessment on what you think is going on, but I also don't want to assume that.
[2:26:16 - 2:26:21] ▶
So what do you, what do you think is going on?
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Well, I will say the shadow of time is first and foremost entertainment.
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We have to be very clear.
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It's to get an emotional journey where there's suspense, there's mystery, there's, oh no,
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And there's, there's romance and there's discovery and curiosity.
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So really it's, it's meant to create emotions in the readers and insight, and maybe some
[2:26:44 - 2:26:51] ▶
It's not, it's intent is not science.
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So I don't think that you can say that what we say in this scenario here is what we think
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We think it's the most entertaining of the not impossible.
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I will speak for myself in that.
[2:27:08 - 2:27:10] ▶
My belief is that there's something real going on and whether that's atmospheric physics,
[2:27:12 - 2:27:20] ▶
we just don't understand, whether it's some other not atmospheric, but some physics phenomena
[2:27:20 - 2:27:28] ▶
that we don't understand.
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There's something very real in a few of these reports.
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How would you probability weight the kind of prosaic explanations, atmospheric stuff versus
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the more exotic stuff?
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I really have no way of saying, I would tend to think that it's something beyond what our
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science can even imagine right now is what I really think it is.
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It's something like this.
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There are more dimensions than we think, or some weird physics that hasn't yet been discovered
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is what I really think.
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It shows more the limitation of our understanding of physics than anything.
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And so I don't think it's mostly atmospheric or any of these other things.
[2:28:06 - 2:28:11] ▶
I think it's something even more fundamental.
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I think it's something that we're going to have to completely redefine.
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And for those of you in the audience who don't know this, cosmology today is undergoing this
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Where I don't think there's any other field of science that I know of that really bedrock
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assumptions are being questioned and crumbled.
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Well, everyone knows that redshift is the farther something away is, the faster away it's moving.
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So the more it gets stretched, so the redshift is greater.
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So you can see how far away something is by the amount of redshift.
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But assuming you have a standard star with a standard emission spectrum, which is an assumption,
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which may not be true because the things that are farther away, maybe they had different
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chemistry or something at that time.
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Then there's somebody who said, well, no, maybe light gets tired after traveling for X billion years.
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Maybe it loses some energy.
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Well, that's been, quote, disproven.
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But then some people say, well, maybe it hasn't been disproven.
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But you have the Hubble tension.
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You have different measurements of the expansion of the universe, which are completely incompatible,
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but both true, which tells you, hmm, some basic things we understood about the universe cannot be true.
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Dark energy, dark matter.
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And so I think that we know because of things like dark energy and dark matter and Hawking radiation
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and things like that, we know we're very limited, really, in what we know.
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And so because we know that we don't know, I think that's where these things are.
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I think they are most likely some really shocking fundamental physics that we just can't get our heads around right now.
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I think that even some of the cosmological concepts that we treat as ontologically true, like dark matter and dark energy,
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they're just mathematical placeholders.
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We've never really detected dark matter.
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And then if you, dark energy is just defined by the inflation of the universe.
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But if you like, even if you put it through like a, you know, an AI engine, you say, what is this?
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It goes, well, it's not one of the four fundamental forces, but it's a force that it's like, this is anti-gravity is what it tells you.
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We know what it's not.
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We don't know what it is.
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We don't know what it is, which means it's a placeholder.
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And it may not be true.
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I mean, there are some theories that say that it's just gravity isn't constant across the whole universe in time.
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Like maybe the laws of physics actually change over time.
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I believe that big G is an averaging of a bunch of stuff.
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Maybe who says that Planck's constant has to say the same throughout all time?
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Do we understand why it is what it is?
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Why is C exactly what C is?
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You know, well, Einstein would say it's a property of space time.
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You can only measure C, by the way, one way.
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You can't measure it both ways, there and back.
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Depending on how you define it, that's true.
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But I guess the point is that you asked me what I think.
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I think that it's both baffling and, for the same reason, incredibly exciting that I think what we're seeing with these credible, real phenomena, of which there are some, is something really bizarre and out there that is so far different than what we think is happening in the universe.
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That we just don't know.
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We're looking at it, but we don't know what we're looking at.
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So what do you think, because you have all this talk of disclosure now and Trump is, you know, Trump and Obama engaged in some sort of bizarre memetic warfare like a couple months ago, and Trump's now saying we're looking into the UFO issue.
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What do you think comes of that?
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Aliens.gov has been registered.
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I mean, if it is this fundamental physics thing, there are limits to what you can disclose.
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But presumably, maybe in just an unofficial context, but there is data on the government side.
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And so do you think all of that gets released?
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Some of it gets released?
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Do you think it's used as a distraction?
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They're never going to release everything.
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I mean, for lots of reasons that I won't go into, but certainly some of it where sources and methods are involved, they're not going to release that.
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But they won't do it because, you know, I'll tell you a story.
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Well, wait, before you tell a story, I want to say what I think.
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I always ask her to do that, so go ahead.
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I cannot say silent too long.
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Nor would we want you to.
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So what I think is that there are so many, there is a bunch of different phenomena that don't have, that might not have anything to do with each other.
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They could be very separate.
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So we need to distinguish what are those that are due to weather or atmospheric stuff or the ones that will have no explanations.
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And the ones that have no explanations, I do think that you're right.
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There is something that we don't know about that is fundamentally different than we know.
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But we need to acknowledge that they exist.
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We need to acknowledge that this is a puzzling thing.
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And we need to acknowledge this in government, in the whole world, which we don't.
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So in psychology, when we have a problem, the first thing is be aware of it.
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And I don't think we're aware of it enough to look for the origin of what it is.
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So first thing is awareness.
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So I would urge all our listeners to be aware of what is happening in the sky.
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Film whatever is happening in the sky if they see anything abnormal or different.
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Because the more people we have that report this thing that are part of us to increase our awareness is really important.
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Well, I'm really glad you stood up for yourself for a lot of reasons.
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But she makes a point that I feel horrible I didn't make.
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I feel very certain that we're not looking at one phenomena.
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I think we're looking at multiple phenomena.
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And I think that they're different enough in the way they've described.
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You know, the glowing spheres are maybe not the same thing as the Tic Tacs and so forth.
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But the triangular ones that people have reported with some consistency.
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Those flying kind of fireballs that were seen over Washington, D.C. in the 50s that seemed to have some credibility.
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I think at the end of the day when they're going to find out it isn't one phenomena.
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And maybe unrelated.
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So I think that's a really important point that she made.
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Yeah, I think there's something going on in our oceans that feels more ultra-terrestrial or, you know, Silurian hypothesis.
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And then there's something that feels more of like a mental interface thing where people get into these heightened states and things show up.
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And those two things feel like probably of a different variety.
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Like I'd imagine the ultra-terrestrial thing is more, you know, in the same biological meat space as us.
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And yeah, I mean, and there are some people who believe that panspermia.
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Tell them about panspermia and that we're basically all aliens.
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Yeah, that life could be, we assume that there is life only on Earth, but it could be that panspermia is a theory that says that life can exist, could exist anywhere in the universe.
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What is to say that life doesn't exist 120 light years away from us?
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Like we found some dimethyl sulfide, the dimethyl disulfide, 122 or 240 light years away from us on exoplanets.
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So it's very possible.
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And we're starting to discover long-chain carbon structures that are on Mars, that are on different planets.
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So it's very possible that there is life in a lot of different places in the universe.
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And it's possible that...
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It could have come here on asteroids.
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It could have come here on asteroids.
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Could have come from Mars.
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Could have come from Mars.
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You know, we got bombarded by a lot of stuff from Mars.
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And it turns out conditions for forming life abiogenetically on Mars were there before on Earth.
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So we might all be Martians.
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Or we might be multiple.
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It could be panspermia, meaning organisms from different places all came here.
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Yeah, and Mars, most conventional astronomers would say that Mars might have had a biosphere.
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There are kind of water caverns all over it.
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It might have had a magnetosphere that it was stripped of.
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Oh, it did have one.
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You have Argon-40 and Xenon-129.
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So there's this one friend of mine who was at Lawrence Livermore in Sandia.
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And he thinks that there was a nuclear holocaust on Mars.
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And it's, you know, who knows?
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He's definitely, like, you know, in a camp on his own in believing this.
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But I think it's really interesting because he says that these exist in excess of what you would ever expect with just normal, you know, radioactive isotope decay.
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And that the only explanation is that.
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And so I found and digested the isotopic evidence.
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And when it all kind of sitting in my office, it all hit me.
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It looked like a thermonuclear holocaust and had happened there.
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And we were so afraid it would happen on Earth.
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And he's got the chops to say something like that where I feel like I have to listen.
[2:38:10 - 2:38:15] ▶
Well, on Mars, there's a lot of lava tubes.
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We've never been inside those lava tubes.
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So what is there inside?
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It could be that's a very protective area.
[2:38:23 - 2:38:27] ▶
There is no or much less radiation in those lava tubes.
[2:38:27 - 2:38:30] ▶
But we've never had anybody going or any machine going inside those lava tubes.
[2:38:30 - 2:38:36] ▶
But the panspermia thing, meaning is it likely that we're all evolved from some extraterrestrial life form?
[2:38:36 - 2:38:43] ▶
Or I think it's almost certain that we're evolved from building blocks that are extraterrestrial.
[2:38:43 - 2:38:48] ▶
If they did that study of that asteroid Bennu.
[2:38:48 - 2:38:52] ▶
In which they found all of the nucleic bases, which are the formation for RNA and DNA.
[2:38:53 - 2:38:58] ▶
So I go, hmm, okay, well, so we have an existence proof that those really important building blocks, nucleic acids are in outer space.
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So the law of parsimony says it probably came here from outer space or came here and we co-evolved them.
[2:39:09 - 2:39:16] ▶
See, what we're finding in anthropology, when it looks at how did humans get to be humans, where they are, it's turning out that it's unbelievably complicated.
[2:39:17 - 2:39:27] ▶
There were many waves of migration out of Africa before and after Homo sapiens.
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There was interbreeding between Denisovians and Neanderthals and, you know, Cro-Mannion and, you know, Homo erectus.
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And, you know, it's like we're this mongrelized, weird mishmash hybrid of a lot of different interbreeding.
[2:39:40 - 2:39:46] ▶
And so there is no clean, simple story of how modern humans came to be modern humans.
[2:39:46 - 2:39:52] ▶
You're European in background, so you have probably 3% Neanderthal genes, as do I.
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Well, she's really an alien.
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I don't know how many.
[2:40:00 - 2:40:01] ▶
But I think the point is that I think what we're going to find is that in the origin of life on Earth, it's going to be messy, complicated, a mishmash of a zillion different things.
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Yeah, and it seems like archaeology is only 200 years old.
[2:40:17 - 2:40:21] ▶
And the further we go, archaeology is like a product of the 19th century, finding ancient, you know, Assyrian and Babylonian cities.
[2:40:21 - 2:40:29] ▶
And the longer we go, the older things get.
[2:40:29 - 2:40:34] ▶
And the longer we go in anthropology, the more hominid species we find.
[2:40:34 - 2:40:39] ▶
And so I think we have, you know, it was like 5 to 10, 10 years ago.
[2:40:39 - 2:40:43] ▶
This is depending on your stringentness with, you know, peer review and, you know, what your definitions are.
[2:40:44 - 2:40:50] ▶
But there are a lot of ancient hominids that we just didn't even know or anticipate.
[2:40:50 - 2:40:54] ▶
I don't think we ever thought that Neanderthals are as smart as we now think they were.
[2:40:54 - 2:40:58] ▶
And so, you know, maybe it was somewhat of a, you know, obviously our intelligence and prefrontal cortex was adaptive, but more of an accident than we think it is that we won.
[2:40:58 - 2:41:09] ▶
So, yeah, there are all these open questions that I think we're just going to get a lot more data on, hopefully.
[2:41:10 - 2:41:17] ▶
So I think if you sum up what both of us said about where we come down on UFOs, it isn't one phenomenon, it's multiple.
[2:41:17 - 2:41:25] ▶
Some of it might be understandable within our current science.
[2:41:27 - 2:41:30] ▶
Some of it almost certainly is not.
[2:41:30 - 2:41:32] ▶
But bottom line, it's real.
[2:41:33 - 2:41:35] ▶
Well, there is some tiny percent that's absolutely real and science should take it seriously.
[2:41:36 - 2:41:43] ▶
We should do a lot more hardcore research into that subject.
[2:41:43 - 2:41:46] ▶
It's cool to see the former CTO of the intelligence community and director of research at the NSA say that.
[2:41:47 - 2:41:53] ▶
Well, I think that any scientist who is worth their salt will tell you there's so much more that we don't know.
[2:41:54 - 2:42:01] ▶
She said we know one percent of what there is to know.
[2:42:01 - 2:42:03] ▶
I wanted to say maybe one-tenth of one-tenth of one-tenth of one percent.
[2:42:05 - 2:42:09] ▶
You know, I think that some problems are too small to see.
[2:42:09 - 2:42:14] ▶
And it's too big for the human mind to get their mind around just how incomprehensible the universe probably is.
[2:42:15 - 2:42:23] ▶
And this is the point that I think it was Niels Bohr or Feynman or someone like that said, yeah, quantum physics is not only weirder than we know, then weirder than we can know.
[2:42:24 - 2:42:34] ▶
Bohr was like, you know, you can't understand this stuff.
[2:42:35 - 2:42:38] ▶
And he would debate with Einstein because Einstein was trying to understand the ontological implications of the spooky action at a distance stuff.
[2:42:38 - 2:42:45] ▶
And Bohr was like, good luck, you know.
[2:42:45 - 2:42:47] ▶
Well, he also said, Bohr has also said, prediction is very difficult, especially of the future.
[2:42:48 - 2:42:53] ▶
I want to actually, you know, wrap up here on The Listening Cure because this is a book really kind of based on your long work, Dr. Crispet Gilbert, that was my introduction to both of you, which is funny because I'm obsessed with UFOs and a lot of the topics you're into.
[2:42:58 - 2:43:16] ▶
But I find it to be fascinating that intelligence might not be just concentrated in the mind, but might be kind of embodied.
[2:43:16 - 2:43:24] ▶
And, you know, we might be holding information all over.
[2:43:24 - 2:43:27] ▶
And really the premise of this book is like, if you have an ailment, you have to listen to it and form a dialogue with it.
[2:43:27 - 2:43:35] ▶
So if you have an ailment, if you have like a lower back pain, for example, you can have a dialogue between your brain, your mind and your back.
[2:43:37 - 2:43:46] ▶
Sometimes your mind is going to tell you, oh, you need to lift those heavy bags and you need to walk for your 10,000 steps a day.
[2:43:46 - 2:43:58] ▶
And your back is going to say, well, that's too heavy for me or that's too many steps for me.
[2:43:58 - 2:44:03] ▶
It doesn't work for me.
[2:44:05 - 2:44:07] ▶
So you've got to take into account every part of your body that might not follow the brain.
[2:44:07 - 2:44:16] ▶
And now we're discovering there is the gut bacteria.
[2:44:16 - 2:44:20] ▶
What kind of gut bacteria do you have?
[2:44:20 - 2:44:24] ▶
And is there a dialogue to have between your brain and your gut bacteria?
[2:44:24 - 2:44:29] ▶
Why are you drawn to certain foods and not to others?
[2:44:30 - 2:44:34] ▶
That could be the gut bacteria.
[2:44:34 - 2:44:36] ▶
Now we're discovering the dysbiosis, which is the, again, what gut bacteria you have,
[2:44:36 - 2:44:43] ▶
could be responsible for maybe the increased amount of cancer or digestive cancer
[2:44:43 - 2:44:50] ▶
that we have in people that are 45 years old or at least less than 50 years old.
[2:44:50 - 2:44:57] ▶
We've got an increase of colon cancer in less than 50 years old.
[2:44:57 - 2:45:03] ▶
We're thinking maybe dysbiosis, maybe the gut bacteria is very different.
[2:45:04 - 2:45:08] ▶
So maybe that dialogue between that part of our body and the brain.
[2:45:08 - 2:45:15] ▶
And it's fantastic to, for me, it's fantastic to create a dialogue between the, like, several
[2:45:16 - 2:45:26] ▶
Like, you have a meeting, a conference meeting between a board meeting, between different seats.
[2:45:28 - 2:45:36] ▶
The stomach will have a seat, the back will have a seat, the liver will have a seat, the
[2:45:36 - 2:45:40] ▶
brain will have a seat, gut bacteria will have a seat, and listen to what each of them
[2:45:40 - 2:45:47] ▶
And then you will be able to understand yourself better, deeper understanding.
[2:45:49 - 2:45:55] ▶
It's also very interesting to have a dialogue between my body and Eric's body, for example.
[2:45:55 - 2:46:01] ▶
So if you have a mate, your partner, and forget about the brain, don't have the brain talk to
[2:46:01 - 2:46:07] ▶
each other, but have their body, the body talk to each other, what are they going to say?
[2:46:07 - 2:46:12] ▶
And they could say something very different than what the mind will say.
[2:46:12 - 2:46:16] ▶
There's fascinating things that happen when you give the body a voice.
[2:46:17 - 2:46:23] ▶
But, you know, this brings up a fascinating difference between the two of us, which I
[2:46:23 - 2:46:28] ▶
regard as a strength, in that we look at the world very differently.
[2:46:28 - 2:46:33] ▶
She wants to make her patients' bodies heal.
[2:46:35 - 2:46:39] ▶
So she's not into mind-body medicine in the sense of understanding the brain and the mind
[2:46:40 - 2:46:46] ▶
for its own sake, but she wants to heal the body by, you know, understanding the brain.
[2:46:46 - 2:46:52] ▶
So her goal is healing the body, right?
[2:46:53 - 2:46:55] ▶
Yeah, it's actually healing the body and the mind.
[2:46:56 - 2:46:58] ▶
And the mind, because they are completely related.
[2:46:58 - 2:47:01] ▶
But I think what I wanted to say is the difference is she's very practical and pragmatic.
[2:47:02 - 2:47:06] ▶
She has a very concrete end result, health, right?
[2:47:07 - 2:47:10] ▶
Where I'm more of a bench scientist than a clinician, right?
[2:47:10 - 2:47:15] ▶
And so I'm interested in the deep why.
[2:47:15 - 2:47:17] ▶
So in the book, the few parts that I wrote, because it's really her book, and I'm just
[2:47:17 - 2:47:23] ▶
throwing in a few pieces of neuroscience that if I had to rewrite that book, my part again,
[2:47:23 - 2:47:31] ▶
I'd read very different.
[2:47:31 - 2:47:32] ▶
Because I interpreted the body the way a neuroscientist would, which is the map of the body on the
[2:47:32 - 2:47:37] ▶
We have the, you mentioned the Wernicke's and Braccus area for speech, but there's similar
[2:47:37 - 2:47:44] ▶
areas for motor and sensory in which you have this little human version of you called the
[2:47:44 - 2:47:49] ▶
homunculus, which is a complete map of your body on your brain, one half each for both
[2:47:49 - 2:47:56] ▶
motor and sensory, right?
[2:47:56 - 2:47:57] ▶
And so if you've ever taken a psychology book, you've seen this thing with huge lips and huge
[2:47:58 - 2:48:01] ▶
And so I talked about the body in that sense.
[2:48:02 - 2:48:05] ▶
It's a neural incarnation of bodily sensation.
[2:48:05 - 2:48:08] ▶
But I believe I was very limited now in, I should have gone way beyond that because now
[2:48:09 - 2:48:16] ▶
we know that there's a ton of neurons in your body, in the peripheral nervous system, like
[2:48:16 - 2:48:25] ▶
in the gut nervous system and in the heart.
[2:48:25 - 2:48:29] ▶
So when we say we feel in our gut, there could be learning and perception and emotion literally
[2:48:29 - 2:48:37] ▶
in your gut, not metaphorically.
[2:48:37 - 2:48:40] ▶
Because think about where you feel emotions.
[2:48:41 - 2:48:43] ▶
They are physical sensations, right?
[2:48:44 - 2:48:47] ▶
Almost every emotion you have, you can map it onto a physical part of your body.
[2:48:47 - 2:48:52] ▶
And that may be because that is literally where you're consciously experiencing it, not in
[2:48:52 - 2:48:58] ▶
And so there's this thing called cellular cognition now, where it turns out that you can
[2:49:00 - 2:49:05] ▶
classically condition plants and single cell organisms, and you can take a planaria, cut
[2:49:05 - 2:49:11] ▶
After you've trained it in a maze, it regrows the front half where the back half had no
[2:49:11 - 2:49:16] ▶
neurons and now knows the maze even so.
[2:49:16 - 2:49:18] ▶
It's what we call cellular cognition.
[2:49:18 - 2:49:20] ▶
And so I now believe that when she says you're talking to your back, it's literal, it's not
[2:49:20 - 2:49:28] ▶
That your back has a constituency, as it were, that it represents the cells in your back muscle
[2:49:29 - 2:49:37] ▶
And it has a point of view that it, as the cellular clusters there, individually have.
[2:49:38 - 2:49:45] ▶
And it's talking to the brain through who knows what.
[2:49:45 - 2:49:48] ▶
And so I think that what is fascinating to me about this very practical clinical idea that
[2:49:49 - 2:49:54] ▶
she came up with is that there might be some literal scientific truth to what she's saying
[2:49:54 - 2:49:59] ▶
that goes far beyond the metaphorical.
[2:49:59 - 2:50:01] ▶
And I think it's important to, and I say in the book, it's very important to listen to
[2:50:04 - 2:50:08] ▶
And sometimes the body will tell you, oh, no, no, no, don't do that.
[2:50:09 - 2:50:12] ▶
Or you've got sensations like tingling sensations or like not in the throat.
[2:50:12 - 2:50:21] ▶
When you're about to do something, like if you're about to marry somebody, somebody's
[2:50:21 - 2:50:27] ▶
about to marry somebody that maybe you're not meant to marry, somebody could have a knot
[2:50:27 - 2:50:32] ▶
in the throat or trembling.
[2:50:32 - 2:50:34] ▶
Or it's important to listen to what the body is feeling because the body knows usually.
[2:50:35 - 2:50:42] ▶
And sometimes the body will know if it's the wrong person to marry, for example.
[2:50:42 - 2:50:48] ▶
So before taking very important steps in life, I say, listen to what your body is saying.
[2:50:48 - 2:50:57] ▶
Because if your body doesn't want to, or if it's before taking an assignment, if you have
[2:50:58 - 2:51:04] ▶
a promotion, and it's a huge promotion, there will be a completely different, it will be
[2:51:04 - 2:51:11] ▶
It will be very good for you, but a lot of work.
[2:51:11 - 2:51:14] ▶
And sometimes the body will tense up and say, oh, listen to that.
[2:51:14 - 2:51:19] ▶
Because I've seen people accepting a promotion, accepting this immense stress that they will
[2:51:19 - 2:51:27] ▶
take on, and then coming afterwards with cancer, and they will die with cancer.
[2:51:27 - 2:51:32] ▶
Because the body knew, the body knows it's too much, too much, too much, too stressful.
[2:51:32 - 2:51:37] ▶
So listen to your body.
[2:51:38 - 2:51:39] ▶
At the end of each chapter of the listening cure, there are exercises that everybody can
[2:51:39 - 2:51:45] ▶
take, and that will make them more aware of what's going on.
[2:51:45 - 2:51:49] ▶
It's a fascinating world.
[2:51:49 - 2:51:51] ▶
It's completely different than UFOs.
[2:51:51 - 2:51:53] ▶
But it's a fascinating world.
[2:51:54 - 2:51:56] ▶
Instead of the outside world of the universe, it's the inside world of our body and our brain,
[2:51:56 - 2:52:02] ▶
and who we're meant to be and who we're not meant to be.
[2:52:02 - 2:52:06] ▶
Well, one comment about different from our book, yes and no, the main kind of anti-character
[2:52:08 - 2:52:14] ▶
in The Shadow of Time has cognition in its body distributed very differently than a human.
[2:52:14 - 2:52:19] ▶
And that turns out to be really important to the story, and how is this different?
[2:52:20 - 2:52:25] ▶
So some of that did make its way.
[2:52:25 - 2:52:27] ▶
And the biology of this particular class of organism, as far as we understand it, is so
[2:52:28 - 2:52:33] ▶
radically different than humans.
[2:52:33 - 2:52:35] ▶
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[2:52:35 - 2:52:36] ▶
And that's why we made this character the way we made it.
[2:52:37 - 2:52:41] ▶
But some of the listen to your body is in there, in that we constructed this creature
[2:52:41 - 2:52:46] ▶
from our understanding of how consciousness can be distributed in different parts of the body.
[2:52:46 - 2:52:53] ▶
I think this is especially relevant for people who don't have acute injuries or acute illnesses.
[2:52:53 - 2:53:00] ▶
So if you get the flu, there's a clear protocol of what you're supposed to do if you injure
[2:53:00 - 2:53:05] ▶
your knee or something.
[2:53:05 - 2:53:06] ▶
But there are a lot of people, especially in Western society, that feel very unheard or
[2:53:08 - 2:53:14] ▶
gaslit by the medical system who deal with chronic illnesses, things that just persist
[2:53:14 - 2:53:19] ▶
throughout their life.
[2:53:19 - 2:53:21] ▶
And so, yeah, this technique of anthropomorphizing the symptoms and speaking to it, it's very interesting.
[2:53:21 - 2:53:29] ▶
I think it's going to be very novel for a lot of people.
[2:53:29 - 2:53:30] ▶
But the idea that that could be cathartic.
[2:53:30 - 2:53:34] ▶
Like, there's actually another book that I love.
[2:53:34 - 2:53:37] ▶
I recommend your book all the time.
[2:53:37 - 2:53:39] ▶
And I recommend this other book called Healing Back Pain by Paul Sarnow.
[2:53:39 - 2:53:42] ▶
And he says that the physical pain you feel is actually adaptive because it's easier for
[2:53:45 - 2:53:51] ▶
you to process physical pain than emotional pain.
[2:53:51 - 2:53:53] ▶
So it's like this overhang remnant of what was adaptive because you couldn't process an
[2:53:53 - 2:54:00] ▶
There's other books like Body Keeps the Score about this stuff too.
[2:54:00 - 2:54:04] ▶
But it's that the body is sort of an imprint of past, you know, maybe the word trauma is
[2:54:04 - 2:54:10] ▶
overused these days.
[2:54:10 - 2:54:11] ▶
But past, you know, emotional experiences that people have had in their lifetime.
[2:54:11 - 2:54:15] ▶
And you can actually go back in, find the, you know, have a dialogue, find the root cause
[2:54:15 - 2:54:20] ▶
and kind of repropagate back up into a more healthier version of yourself, which is, that's
[2:54:20 - 2:54:26] ▶
Well, you know, it's interesting to think about the evolution and how we came to have
[2:54:28 - 2:54:31] ▶
these bodies that we have and the mind that we have.
[2:54:31 - 2:54:34] ▶
And if you think about those first leaps between single cell and multicellular organisms, which
[2:54:34 - 2:54:40] ▶
clearly we made in evolution, you start to understand what she's saying even deeper.
[2:54:40 - 2:54:46] ▶
Look at a pond scum or a slime mold.
[2:54:46 - 2:54:49] ▶
What you find is that's a collection of individuals that start to behave in concert.
[2:54:50 - 2:54:55] ▶
Like you have certain ones that are used for digestion, certain ones that move the slime
[2:54:55 - 2:55:00] ▶
mold around towards new food or away from threats.
[2:55:00 - 2:55:02] ▶
And so you also have gene swapping among individual single cell organisms so that a multicellular
[2:55:02 - 2:55:11] ▶
organism might form from multiple, what used to be different species that became one, right?
[2:55:11 - 2:55:17] ▶
So if you now fast forward that process over 4 billion years, you end up with us.
[2:55:17 - 2:55:23] ▶
But we've retained that original form of multicellular where really we're different organisms.
[2:55:24 - 2:55:30] ▶
And that is literally true with our biome, right?
[2:55:30 - 2:55:34] ▶
Most of your DNA isn't yours.
[2:55:35 - 2:55:36] ▶
It's all your biome, right?
[2:55:36 - 2:55:38] ▶
And so one way to think about the body from the standpoint of evolution is we're really
[2:55:38 - 2:55:44] ▶
We're a collection of many different organisms, each with their own agenda that have cooperated
[2:55:45 - 2:55:52] ▶
for mutual benefit, but whose needs often collide.
[2:55:52 - 2:55:55] ▶
And anyone who's felt an urge to do something like eat a donut or maybe do something amorous
[2:55:57 - 2:56:02] ▶
that they shouldn't.
[2:56:02 - 2:56:03] ▶
Knows that life isn't pure.
[2:56:04 - 2:56:06] ▶
You know, one part of you wants to do it and the other part says, don't do that.
[2:56:06 - 2:56:11] ▶
So it's almost like this thesis, antithesis, synthesis.
[2:56:13 - 2:56:17] ▶
What you described almost sounded like, you know, internal family systems where you create
[2:56:17 - 2:56:22] ▶
this dialogue, but it's with components of the body.
[2:56:22 - 2:56:25] ▶
And then the output is this sort of compromise or something between them, which is, that's
[2:56:25 - 2:56:30] ▶
such a fascinating concept.
[2:56:30 - 2:56:31] ▶
Well, it's fractal when you think about it.
[2:56:32 - 2:56:34] ▶
When you think about the way your body is, you have specialists.
[2:56:34 - 2:56:37] ▶
Evolution has decided that a collection of specialists will outperform an equal mass of generalists.
[2:56:38 - 2:56:44] ▶
So when you look at your body, you know, your toenail does a very different function from
[2:56:44 - 2:56:50] ▶
your liver, from your brain.
[2:56:50 - 2:56:51] ▶
And within your brain, you see hyperspecialization.
[2:56:51 - 2:56:53] ▶
There's different nuclei that have different shapes.
[2:56:53 - 2:56:55] ▶
And so, so diversity of function and narrowness of specialization is what biology has decided
[2:56:56 - 2:57:05] ▶
And look at human evolution.
[2:57:06 - 2:57:07] ▶
We went from a society of generalists where everybody hunted and everybody gathered to now
[2:57:08 - 2:57:13] ▶
you look at a corporation where, or even medicine, like I'm an internist, but I do nephrology
[2:57:13 - 2:57:21] ▶
in adolescence with, we slice things narrower and narrower.
[2:57:21 - 2:57:26] ▶
And so with multicellular organisms, as with human civilization and businesses, we go toward
[2:57:26 - 2:57:32] ▶
bigger and bigger and bigger with hyper and hyper and hyper specialization.
[2:57:32 - 2:57:36] ▶
That don't know anything about each other.
[2:57:36 - 2:57:39] ▶
Ask a dermatologist how to treat high blood pressure.
[2:57:39 - 2:57:42] ▶
He will not know, he or she will not know how to treat high blood pressure.
[2:57:42 - 2:57:46] ▶
So it's hyper specialized and they don't connect with each other.
[2:57:46 - 2:57:50] ▶
And it's also looking for, it's sick care, in my opinion.
[2:57:51 - 2:57:54] ▶
It's waiting for the very, you know, margins of, you know, extreme, like you're in the bad
[2:57:54 - 2:58:00] ▶
5%, let's give you surgery or something.
[2:58:00 - 2:58:03] ▶
And it's not, this, this complex is building up over time.
[2:58:03 - 2:58:07] ▶
You have some tension and then that creates, you know, yeah, dysbiosis.
[2:58:07 - 2:58:11] ▶
And then that leads to cancer.
[2:58:11 - 2:58:12] ▶
It's not these like long buildups, which are occurring in everybody, you know?
[2:58:12 - 2:58:16] ▶
And so it's important to, I think, treat the root, the root cause.
[2:58:17 - 2:58:20] ▶
And there's another, another element that complicates stuff is the aging.
[2:58:20 - 2:58:25] ▶
The aging process is not the same in each organ or in each part of us.
[2:58:25 - 2:58:30] ▶
Like the brain might not see the aging as much as the, you know, the, the back or as the knee or,
[2:58:30 - 2:58:40] ▶
you know, it's every, so you have to take into account each part of our body that ages differently
[2:58:40 - 2:58:46] ▶
and have a dialogue with those.
[2:58:46 - 2:58:48] ▶
Gee, that wouldn't have anything to do with saying my trochanter bursitis is due to me being 74 years old
[2:58:48 - 2:58:55] ▶
and not realizing it.
[2:58:55 - 2:58:56] ▶
You're in great shape for 74.
[2:58:58 - 2:59:00] ▶
I'll take that as a compliment.
[2:59:02 - 2:59:03] ▶
But yeah, no, I mean, it is fascinating to, though, you know, when you look at the healthcare system
[2:59:04 - 2:59:10] ▶
and say, how come we're sick treatment oriented?
[2:59:10 - 2:59:13] ▶
Well, remember I said you get the behavior reward?
[2:59:13 - 2:59:16] ▶
Money might have something to do with that.
[2:59:16 - 2:59:18] ▶
It may be more profitable to treat sick people than to stop them from being sick in the first place.
[2:59:18 - 2:59:23] ▶
I mean, I'm just saying.
[2:59:24 - 2:59:25] ▶
I'm just a guy asking questions.
[2:59:25 - 2:59:27] ▶
I think you might be onto something.
[2:59:27 - 2:59:29] ▶
Well, it's been such a pleasure and such a wide ranging conversation with you both.
[2:59:29 - 2:59:35] ▶
And I hope people buy all of the books.
[2:59:36 - 2:59:38] ▶
But yeah, the new science of UFOs.
[2:59:39 - 2:59:41] ▶
Obviously, we have the shadow of time, which is the new book here.
[2:59:41 - 2:59:43] ▶
Fascinating and really fun to read.
[2:59:44 - 2:59:46] ▶
And then, of course, the listening here, which is my entry point to you guys.
[2:59:46 - 2:59:50] ▶
I really appreciate your time.
[2:59:50 - 2:59:51] ▶
This has been a whole lot of fun.
[2:59:52 - 2:59:54] ▶
And to the listeners, viewers out there, we hope we haven't given you whiplash from moving around to all these different topics.
[2:59:54 - 3:00:00] ▶
Oh, they're used to it.
[3:00:00 - 3:00:01] ▶
We all have ADD in our generation.
[3:00:02 - 3:00:05] ▶
Oh, thank you again for the opportunity.
[3:00:06 - 3:00:07] ▶
This has been a lot of fun.
[3:00:07 - 3:00:08] ▶
It's been a total blast.
[3:00:10 - 3:00:11] ▶
It's been a lot of fun.
[3:00:12 - 3:00:12] ▶
All my favorite topics in one.
[3:00:13 - 3:00:15] ▶
Head to AmericanAlchemyMerch.com to grab official American Alchemy merch and support the show directly.
[3:00:17 - 3:00:23] ▶
And while you're there, the Cowboy UFO T is a fan favorite we always keep in stock, along with the Atomic Age design.
[3:00:24 - 3:00:31] ▶
Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show.
[3:00:31 - 3:00:34] ▶
Throughout, we bij a fewок favorites.
[3:00:47 - 3:01:17] ▶