984 segments
At long last, Coltart.
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I see you're the men in black.
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Did you make the arrangements?
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Did you get the car?
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Of course I got the car. It's my car.
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Great to meet you, mate. Great to meet you.
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This is about time. And I see we got the memo on the blue chairs.
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We did actually. Yeah, we're looking good.
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We're ready for a road trip. Let's go.
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Let's do it. Cheers.
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Hello and welcome to this special edition of Need to Know.
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And before I go any further, I want to pay personal apologies to Oliver Stone for our gentle homage to his brilliant JFK movie in our opener.
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Both Bryce Zabel, my co-host and I are fans.
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So I'm Ross Coltart.
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And in Los Angeles, my co-host in the show is Bryce Zabel.
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You know, it was funny watching that because it was such a dramatic moment for both of us.
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I don't think people can appreciate it effectively what went on here.
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Here's the two of us who met during the pandemic by Zoom, became friends, became colleagues, said, let's put on a show together.
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Came up with this Need to Know podcast.
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Did something like 17 or 18 episodes.
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And then we met in person for the first time on the Santa Monica Pier there.
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It was really quite extraordinary.
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And then, of course, having just met, we go get in a car and start driving around California looking for UFO stories.
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It was really, really a special moment.
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So, Bryce, we're introducing a new audience to Need to Know in this show, because this is a show that we're doing in collaboration with the network I work with in Australia, the Seven Network.
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And it'll be going around internationally.
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So I think we should explain who we are and what our show is about.
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I'm an investigative journalist that works for the Seven TV network, Australia's top commercial TV network in Australia.
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I'm an investigative journalist, a multi award winning journo who's worked for newspapers, television and radio in different networks around the world.
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I've written books, many books, mainly histories.
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But a few years ago, I wrote a book about UFOs, UAPs, Unidentified Aerial Phenomena.
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My book is called In Plain Sight.
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And frankly, my life hasn't been the same since I wrote that book.
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The volume, the intensity of interest from all around the world has been insane.
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You, the audience, you want to know more about this subject.
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And that's what Need to Know is all about.
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We're a news program that offers analysis, insight and fresh information about the UAP issue.
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Bryce, how about you tell the public a little bit about yourself?
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Well, you know, that was my experience, too, dipping my toe in the water of this subject and then finding out how many people are so interested in it.
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You know, I first came to California, where I live now, years ago as a CNN correspondent, worked as you are working now as an investigative reporter.
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But mainly I embraced the entertainment industry.
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And on the UFO subject, for example, I wrote the first original film that the Sci-Fi Channel ever did on the UFO subject itself.
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Created a TV series called Dark Skies for NBC.
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I've written a book about the topic myself.
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Mine is called A.D. After Disclosure, which is sort of like what the world will look like after we all agree that we're not alone.
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So, yeah, I think we both have had that experience where we've started to look into this thing and said, I'm skeptical.
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I don't know if there's going to be anything here.
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And then the more you look into it, the more you realize, well, something actually extraordinary does seem to be happening.
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So the way I look at the need to know program is that we just sort of saw a vacuum that we felt we could fill, which was people are interested in this.
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They're busy, though. They want to hear the facts, but they don't want to spend, you know, three hours listening to a single podcast with someone they've never heard of.
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They want to see people talking about it. That's what you and I do.
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Now, one of the joys of you and me getting together has been that for the first time we've actually been able to get to meet each other.
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And we've just done a bit of a road trip through California chasing up leads on the UAP mystery.
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And one of the things that I think to introduce a newcomer to this issue, too, is the days when you could dismiss UFOs, UAPs as just tinfoil hat craziness are well and truly over.
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Ever since June last year, when the Pentagon's UAP task force filed a report with the Congress, UFOs, UAPs have been acknowledged as an authentic mystery.
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It was officially admitted by the Department of Defense that there is a phenomenon operating in our skies, our oceans and even we hear in orbit, which is being indisputably confirmed by high end censors, seen by credible witnesses, often military, who are now overcoming the stigma and ridicule associated with UAPs and coming forward with their testimony.
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And Bryce, as you and I both know, there's been secret evidence given before the Congress, which has now motivated the U.S. Congress to really do something about bringing out the secrets, if there are any about this phenomenon.
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Oh, I think there are. But let me give our listeners and our viewers a little historical background.
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This thing really got on rails in 1947. That is 75 years ago, when not only was there the Kenneth Arnold sighting up in Washington state, that's also the summer of Roswell.
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So that's when things started going on. Now we're 75 years later. Kind of crazy, right, that we're still talking about it. Well, here's what's happened in the last five years that is extraordinary.
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On December 17th, 2017, the New York Times, that August newspaper here in the United States decided to actually report that the U.S. government had been investigating UFOs for years.
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And they talked about a case that we're going to be talking about in just a few minutes. But that was like the starter's gun where people could say, well, wait, maybe we should really look into this.
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Now there have been whistleblowers. There have been reports. And as you said, this June 25th, 2021 report was truly extraordinary. It was a short report. But what it did do is one thing that is is wild.
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It said that they had looked into 144 cases that had happened since 2000. 143 of them remained a mystery to them. But they confirmed, as you said, one thing, which is it's real.
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Now that violates what the U.S. government had been telling people for many, many decades, which is for decades they've been saying, yeah, nothing to see here and and allowing people who had seen things to feel that they were a little crazy and and a subject of stigma.
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Well, that stigma is what is going away now that the government report said they're real.
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We probably don't make them and we don't think China or Russia make them.
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So I always say in this thing, wow, well, if you do the math on that one, who does that leave?
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And that's why I think our real little road trip was interesting, because it gave us a chance to get in a car, spend a lot of time driving around and talking about this and talking to some really informed and intelligent researchers and other people on this topic.
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And I think I'm very excited to show people some of that product.
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Now, one of the first witnesses that we met on our road trip was Ryan Graves.
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He's a former very advanced fighter pilot who was working with the U.S. Navy a few years ago when there were very strange encounters off the east coast of America.
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These were encounters that happened in about 2014, 2015, as the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt was working up to travel to the Middle East and they were doing rehearsals for war just off the east coast of America.
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Now, what happened during those training incidents is what has essentially changed Ryan Graves life.
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He's gone to the Congress since he experienced these things and testified about what he and his colleagues are aware of.
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Here's what Ryan Graves, the former F-18 fighter pilot, says he and his colleagues have witnessed off the east coast of America.
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As my colleague was flying out to the area, his wingman was off his wing as expected, about 100 feet or so.
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And right as they passed through the entrance of the working area, one of these objects apparently was right at the entrance.
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It went by the lead aircraft somewhere, you know, again, we have to guesstimate somewhere around, you know, no further than about 50 feet.
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And, you know, they almost hit this object and they never had it on their radar.
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At this point, we were aware they were physical objects.
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So if he had on his radar, he would have maneuvered around it.
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We were already briefing this as a safety hazard at this point.
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What did this object look like, Ryan?
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Yeah, when he came back to the ready room, he described it with his mouth open.
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He said, I almost hit one of those damn things.
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And then he described it as a dark gray or black cube.
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And that was inside a translucent or clear sphere where the kind of apexes of that cube were touching the inner surface of that sphere.
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I mean, that's how he described it.
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Well, we talked to Ryan Graves, the pilot that you just heard from, literally as the first part of our road trip, as part of our Need to Know podcast.
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And what Ryan said is extraordinary.
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He was one of the people that briefed Congress.
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And part of his briefing that was so extraordinary is that he said these things happened all the time, sometimes daily.
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And of course, many of them, 50 to 100 at a time.
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And that they were strange beyond belief.
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The idea of being followed by what amounts to a sphere with a cube inside it.
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I mean, if I put that in one of the screenplays that I write, I'm not sure that anybody would find that credible.
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And yet that's exactly what this pilot Ryan Graves was saying.
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I find it incredible, Ross, that we have somebody of that merit talking.
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And that it's still not the top news story of the day.
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I agree with you, Bryce.
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And the interesting thing about this is that for much of the last five decades, the U.S. Air Force has influenced air forces around the world,
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defense departments all around the world in the position that is officially put about UFOs.
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There's been a stigma and a ridicule attached to the subject matter of UFOs, UAPs, in a way that, frankly, I believe, is not justified.
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The standard line has been to not answer the question.
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Air forces, the U.S. Air Force in particular, have consistently said it's not a national security issue.
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It's not a flight safety issue.
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And what Ryan Graves' evidence shows is that it is a national security issue.
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It is a flight safety issue.
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And that is why his evidence to the Congress has been absolutely key in convincing key congressmen and senators to understanding why this matters.
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And for the first time, the Congress is now moving with key legislation that will essentially mandate reporting about UAPs in a way that, frankly, has never happened before.
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We asked Ryan what he thought this phenomenon was, what was going on inside the government.
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And he's a very thoughtful fellow.
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This is what he said.
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You know, I don't know either way where the truth lies.
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But I will say that from my perspective as a former tactical aviator, having these objects overhead any of our naval assets is a big no-no.
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It's just completely unacceptable to think that either we're allowing these things to operate because we are afraid to actually look at this problem in the face and treat it seriously.
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Or we find ourselves in some type of conflict that the general public is not necessarily aware of.
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But either way, we can't be having objects flying over our ships without the ability to stop it.
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One of the things, Bryce, that we asked Ryan was what he thinks is going on.
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Is there a cover up?
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Is there an attempt by the Air Force in particular to conceal what it knows?
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I think his analysis is important.
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So this is what he told us.
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I have to assume that they know much more than the public is telling us.
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I mean, we know for a fact that these objects are out there and we have a bunch of radar data that shows us how they perform.
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So without question, the U.S. government is aware of information that the general public is not.
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Why is it classified? Why won't they release it? I don't know.
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I don't think it's a sustainable position to say that there's a massive aviation safety risk going on in near mid air is happening,
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but not to share that information with our commercial aviation sector.
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So, you know, I think that they're in a position now that there's enough energy behind this that the normal excuses just aren't going to work anymore.
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I don't think the normal excuses are going to work anymore.
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But let's talk about what those normal excuses were going back to 47 through the 50s, the 60s, the 70s, the 80s.
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The 90s, the thousands. I mean, was the U.S. government basically saying nothing to see here, folks?
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And they would say over and over, we're not looking into it.
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They did look into it from 52 to 69 with a Project Blue Book many people have heard about.
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But it wasn't until the 2000s where Harry Reid got some money.
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He was the Senate majority leader, got some money to start an office that would look into it.
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And that leads to the other extreme case that people have heard about.
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That is the 2004 USS Nimitz case, which involved an up close encounter with what people call the Tic Tac.
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It was like a large, unidentified aerial phenomena craft, and it was pacing our own craft.
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It went from 80,000 feet to right above sea level in seven-eighths of a second, I think, is what we've been told.
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I mean, there's just so much out there. And the government now seems to have pivoted.
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And they are now saying nothing to see here. They're saying, well, let's start with 2004.
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Let's start with the Nimitz, and let's talk about that.
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So I think what's interesting is we are having a lot of new discussion from people who are stepping out of the shadows,
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and God bless them for doing it. But we've also had an enormous history that one of the things that we like to do on Need to Know
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is to compare the things that happened in our history with what's going on now.
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They're not that dissimilar. The difference is the public and the media and the government and scientists are all starting to wake up
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and operate as if the stigma isn't as strong as it used to be, which it's not. And that means we're likely to start to get some better information.
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And that's happening right now.
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And what's really interesting is that it's intensifying. Ryan Graves has said this to us, that there's increasing frequency of these sightings now.
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It's happening not just in America. It's also happened, I'm told, with ships and aircraft in the Middle East in combat zones.
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So whatever the phenomenon is, it's showing itself more often, which is fascinating.
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Now, one of the people who knows a great deal about this is a filmmaker by the name of Jeremy Corbell,
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who Seven Network viewers in Australia would know. He's made quite a few appearances before with Seven Digital.
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Jeremy's a filmmaker who has some incredible sources inside the US military and intelligence services.
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And about a year ago, he was dropped some very interesting videos, a series of videos that show incidents where UAPs allegedly swarmed around US Navy ships,
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again operating off the west coast of California. Now, what's very, very interesting is that in the mid-May hearings two months ago in the US Congress,
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two intelligence officials in what were the first UAP hearings in half a century, they poured cold water on those videos that Jeremy Corbell had obtained.
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They suggested that what those objects were, were drones. This is the key exchange with one of those intelligence officials in the US Congress in mid-May.
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With respect to the second two videos showing the small triangles, the hypothesis is that those are commercial drones that, because of the use of night vision goggles, appear like triangles.
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Is that the operating assessment? Some type of drone, some type of unmanned aerial system. And it is simply that that light source resolves itself through the night vision goggles,
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onto the SLR camera as a triangle.
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That hearing happened on May 17th of 2022. And it was very exciting for a lot of people that there were going to be UFO hearings because there haven't been any since 1968.
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And here we were having another one. It was kind of a letdown to have the two people that the Department of Defense sent over behave the way those two witnesses did.
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That's why we thought it was so important to get Jeremy Corbell's response to this very strong impression that the US Navy was trying to get across that there was just nothing to these videos.
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And they literally use the phrase commercial drones. And that's not what he thinks they are, nor is that what a lot of people think they are.
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There was just a lot of problems with the drone explanation because no one could explain. And here's the key. Where do all these drones come from?
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If you've got 50 or 100 drones out in the middle of the ocean, where are they coming from? How are they being dispatched?
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Where do they go to after they've done their thing? So there was a bolt carrier called the Bass Strait that passed through the fleet that Ross was talking about at one stage.
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But at crucial times during these sightings, it was actually tied up at the dock in San Diego.
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So as you're going to see, Jeremy Corbell was what I would describe as defiant in the face of the US Navy's explanation.
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He's very clear from his sources that the drones explanation, it just doesn't wash.
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What I do know is that they were either uninformed or there was an intentional application of trying to dismiss what's going on by showing one piece of actually six pieces of corroborative evidence that I provided to the public.
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They showed only the USS Russell.
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So then we come to this extraordinary video, which shows a hovering object, which is near the USS Omaha.
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And I do not think the drone's explanation given by the Director of Navy Intelligence, Deputy Director of Navy Intelligence, Scott Bray, explains this object.
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It's one of the Corbell videos that the Navy still has not explained.
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I defy anyone to say that this is a drone.
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So this is very interesting.
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So did you hear the other ships that were just called out by that crewman?
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All those other ships called out definitively were having the same type of encounter at the same time.
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Now there were others.
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With the same object?
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With the same types of objects swarming their ships.
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So that's what people kind of miss on this is that it's not just one ship or one piece of evidence.
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It's corroborative visual evidence to a mass scale event.
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People get upset when I say it was like about a hundred plus objects.
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Well, I have been very clear on that.
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You take the number of ships, the average number that are seen at the same time, and you add that up, you have massive swarms.
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What I find very interesting is what happens next.
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Mark bearing and range.
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So they're marking bearing and range and they're saying splash.
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They don't mean that there's a literal splash that it went into the water.
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So subsequently after this, immediately after, they did send a submarine to go look for wreckage.
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That's one of the five observables, isn't it?
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That is understood to be one of the five observables.
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It's either gone stealth or it's gone instantaneous velocity.
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To be honest, I don't know.
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I mean, we just don't know.
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That's gone transmedium.
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And it's gone transmedium.
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When we first started talking on this show today, we were talking about how UFOs, unidentified
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flying objects, were now being called UAP, which is Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon.
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And that doesn't actually cover everything because what we're seeing is a transmedium kind of
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Let me explain what transmedium is.
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An object that can go from water to the air or to space or from space to air to water,
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that's what people are seeing.
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They are seeing these objects that are not limited to just flying objects.
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Some of them are underwater going hundreds of knots and that's pretty fast underwater.
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We don't have anything that does that.
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So that's kind of the key for Jeremy's explanation that this drone thing doesn't wash, at least
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for him, because they're transmedium.
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And what explains that?
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What drone is transmedium?
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It appears, and they wrote this in the briefing.
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Again, this is not me.
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This is in the ONI briefing I put out.
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It said they believed it appears to go into the water.
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That would mean a transmedium vehicle.
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They actually sent a submarine to go look for wreckage or the craft and nothing was recovered
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And that's something I've reported on that I stand by because I know it to be true.
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So this object, you see it, the shape of it is most likely the actual shape of this thing.
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There's estimates of size and it goes into the water.
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Now, it didn't make a physical splash.
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That's not what they're, when they say splash, that just means we've got something that has
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Because you don't actually see it move.
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It just one minute it's been, but it's gone.
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So some people have another theory about this, that it's not necessarily transmedium,
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that it is changing states.
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Again, I'm not qualified to answer.
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You go talk to some physicists.
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But one thing for sure, we don't have technology like that.
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Sadly, that is true.
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That we don't have effective transmedium vehicles.
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These craft appear throughout history to be able to penetrate those boundaries between
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space, air and sea without the same type of friction shielding that we would need.
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And it's not you saying that.
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It's the ONI that's saying that.
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So, Bryce, it's really clear that from what Jeremy Corbell is saying, the Naval Intelligence
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boss, Scott Bray, really hasn't addressed what he means when he says that objects like
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the USS Omaha object could possibly be a drone.
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That simply doesn't explain what's being seen there.
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It's either disappeared because of hypersonic velocity or it's gone transmedium.
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It's dropped into the water.
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What kind of drone does that?
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The other thing too is, and I've got huge respect for Jeremy Corbell's sources.
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I mean, I wish I could say what I know about some of Jeremy Corbell's sources.
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They are very, very impressive.
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And the other thing that he's aware of, that he's quite defiant on, is his strong belief
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that the United States government is in possession of non-human, yes, alien technology.
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This is what Jeremy says.
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Do you believe that the United States and other governments in this world have recovered
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non-human technology?
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Yeah, I don't have the luxury of disbelief about that.
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I am with high confidence.
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I can tell you that we have materials that we cannot replicate, that appear to have been
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made somewhere else, and not just materials, but craft.
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And I've said it before, and I've got no problem saying it to you.
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Again, you can discard it as a belief, but it's an informed belief that we do have vehicles
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and we do have materials that we don't know who made them.
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We don't know where they were from.
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And importantly, they're intelligently controlled.
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This is not a matter of belief either.
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These objects or these craft that just completely outpace what we have, and have been doing so
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ever since we've had flight.
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It's been around for a while.
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These are under intelligent control.
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Now, who is the intelligence behind this?
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Is this an artificial intelligence like you'd see in a drone?
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Well, even drones have operators.
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So there is some entity behind this, you know, an intelligent entity.
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Now, people like to throw out these terms, I have no idea where UFOs are from.
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But there is an intelligence, probably beings that are behind these machines.
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They've got to be factories.
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Well, you made a point earlier saying that the government for years said nothing to see here.
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They either dismissed it or said we've looked into it and there's nothing to see here.
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Well, you know the thing about this whole drone thing, we could talk drones for hours,
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and we have literally on our show before.
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Who's making these drones?
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Are China, Russia, the United States private enterprise capable of making drones like that?
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And do they explain the transmedium?
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That's a whole issue that we've already addressed.
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But the other issue is if you put this in the historical context, which again is kind of a horse I like to ride,
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if you think about it, go back to 1947 and the 50s and the 60s when these same kind of things are being reported.
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And do you really think that anybody from those three countries or anywhere on Earth was making drones that were capable of doing that in the 40s and 50s?
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I mean, clearly not.
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So to have this argument about drones now, I mean, yes, there is drone technology out there.
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The United States has it and so do others.
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But nobody seems to have a drone capable of doing this.
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And even if they did and they don't, it would not explain the 75 years of all this other stuff.
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So it is kind of an interesting connection that we have to look at there.
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The other thing that's important is that not only have these sightings been going on since well before now, since the 1940s and earlier,
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there's also been key locations where a lot of these sightings have occurred.
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And one of the fun parts of our road trip was when you and I went to sea.
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We actually went out off the coast of California on a launch to go to the areas where these sightings have occurred.
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And one of the people that went with us is a UFO investigator researcher by the name of Ben Hanson.
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Tell us a little bit about Ben, Bryce.
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I understand he's a good friend of yours and you've worked with him before.
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Ben Hanson is a good friend.
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I know him very well.
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And he's just a he's a brilliant skeptic at being able to look at things and reason through them.
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And by the way, Santa Barbara was fantastic.
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It's not not far from where I live, but I've never gone up there and gone out on a boat looking for UAP.
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So that was pretty extraordinary part of the the entire trip.
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Now, Ben Hanson is interesting because he used to work for the FBI.
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He's an ex FBI agent, a crime scene investigator, and he is extremely knowledgeable in that kind of level.
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And he's also taken it upon himself to learn everything possible about all the night vision camera technology that's a that is out there.
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And so it was fantastic that Ben Hanson was able to meet us up in Santa Barbara and go out on that boat with us because he gave us kind of a sense of of all the anomalous behavior that is happening in that area.
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And by the way, you know, where we're talking about going isn't that far from where the USS Nimitz thing happened back in 2004.
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It's just a couple hundred miles to the south and a little bit out to the west.
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So it was fascinating to do it.
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I thought he had a lot of interesting things to say and a whole new perspective.
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In particular, Bryce, one of the things that he drew our attention to was quite interesting magnetic anomalies.
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That happen exactly in the area where the 2004 USS Nimitz sighting occurred.
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Have a listen to what Ben told us.
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Well, this whole channel that we're in from Santa Barbara to Catalina and including an island known as San Clemente right off here in the back is really unique.
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Right. Because you have an area of tectonic anomalies.
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You've got a lot of fault lines going through here.
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So there's big, big lumps of land rubbing up against each other.
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Yeah, plates clashing against each other.
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And geologists don't even know how some of these things are formed.
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You have here the Catalina crater and what's called the Emory Knoll right next to it.
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Now, these two features lie right off the coast of a very, very deep trench, over 4,000 or 5,000 feet.
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And along with this, we have these magnetic anomalies.
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Now, look what's right off the backside of San Clemente.
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So that's a huge... Catalina.
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This gray color depicts the strongest, practically the strongest, magnetic intensity that you can have.
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Now, what does it mean?
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That's what we're interested in.
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Because the Nimitz videos, the sightings of people that have been talking to me, see things between the channel and the coast all the way up to Santa Barbara, all the way down here of objects entering the water.
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So you don't think it's a coincidence that there's a huge magnetic anomaly there?
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No, I... there's a lot of theories.
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Now, this sounds really strange, right?
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But one theory is, as we believe that some of these craft have a propulsion system that creates its own magnetic field, right?
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So if you wanted to hide that, if, let's say, set up a base of operations, where would be the perfect place to do it?
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In a place that already has a natural feature that can hide or cover up any signatures that you're putting out.
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One of the interesting things I thought going out with Ben taught us is that it isn't just the government that gets to decide what we know and when we get to know it anymore.
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A lot of the technology that was only in the US military or the militaries of the rest of the world going back into days gone by has now devolved into the hands of citizens.
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So if you take a look at the technical capabilities that Ben Hanson was able to marshal for us to go looking ourselves, it is extraordinary.
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And that's what gives me a lot of hope, Ross, to be honest with you, about how we're going to get the answers to this.
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I mean, I hope that the government is sincere.
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I hope that these new hearings do happen.
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I hope that senators and congresspeople who have been briefed and know that there's something going on and we need to address it, I hope that they get to work on it.
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But I guess my sense is whether they do or they don't do all of those things, it's time for us, the people, to sort of take this on ourselves.
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We've got the technology. We've got the data. We can generate new data.
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And so I think looking forward to the future, we can say the public itself may find out enough about this phenomenon that they are able to push the government into further disclosures.
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At least that's my take.
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The fact that it's now possible for journalists like Ben Hanson to obtain military grade, non-exportable night vision gear that allows you to see very clearly at night is quite extraordinary.
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And one of the things I found quite fascinating is whilst we didn't see any strange anomalous objects that night that we were out there with him, he told us that frequently he does.
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We see a lot of things in orbit and suddenly they'll start changing directions, doing S-turns.
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Disappearing or reappearing, you know, a couple miles away.
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So is there anything of our technology in orbit that can do S-turns?
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Not at that altitude.
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You consider that they're falling at about 17,500 miles an hour.
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So if in real time you're turning that quickly, not only could the craft not survive the G-force, but occupants couldn't unless you're using some sort of inertia displacing propulsion.
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You know, there's no question that when we talk about UAP these days, we have to make one thing very clear, which is somebody is making them.
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The government's already admitted they're real.
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So somebody is making them.
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And this new technology that has devolved into the hands of private citizens as well as interest groups is allowing us to perceive more accurately every single day whoever is leaping into our world.
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And if it is another intelligence, our ability to perceive them is growing all the time and gives us more confidence that we might finally know what's going on.
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Now, I want you to know that I thought hanging out on a boat with you and driving all over California and experiencing our heat wave together, that was all fun.
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But we had to divide and conquer at a certain point for myself.
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I'm writing a scripted podcast called Undeniable that is about how the world is going to change after we admit that we're not alone.
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And so I had to go meet a deadline on that.
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But you got the you got the plum assignment, my friend.
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You got to go talk to Dr. Gary Nolan.
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And I'm just going to let you take that one away.
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Yep. Professor Gary Nolan is one of those precocious minds that when you meet them, you know, you're in the presence of awesome, incredible intelligence.
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He's a Stanford University based professor of immunology.
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At the moment, he's a nominee for the Nobel Prize.
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He's one of the most reputable immunologists on the planet, extremely well regarded.
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He's got multiple patents, huge numbers of papers that have been published in his name.
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He's got two companies listed on the Nasdaq because of successful inventions that he's made.
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He's just all around a complete total overachiever.
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And one of the things that I loved in meeting him was his candor.
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The fact that he was so prepared.
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He's very fast becoming one of the public faces of UFO, UAP commentary.
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He's decided to take a very public profile because he's actually an experiencer himself.
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So when I asked him about the significance of the US government's admissions that have been made about UAPs in the last 12 months,
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I was quite shocked and surprised at what he told me.
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Professor, how significant is it that the United States government came out a year ago
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and admitted that unidentified aerial phenomena are real?
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Whatever they are, they're a real mystery.
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I think it tells us that, first of all, the government has been lying to us for the last 60 or 70 years.
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I think it gives solace to people who have been told that they were crazy to have been believing or seeing this.
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So that, to me at least from the personal point of view, from the human point of view, that's one of the most important things.
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I know this is speculative, but why do you think the US government's lied?
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I think it's because, frankly, they didn't understand what it was and nobody wanted to admit that, first of all.
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But second, they didn't want to admit that they didn't have control over our airspace.
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We didn't have control over our own airspace.
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So the government's been lying, but do you think there's been a cover-up?
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Absolutely. I mean, there has been both a cover-up as well as a disinformation campaign to make people look like they were crazy.
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See, this is amazing to me to hear a scientist of your reputation saying this.
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I mean, you're one of the most eminent immunologists on the planet.
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You're a Nobel Prize nominee. You're somebody highly respected in your area of medicine.
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Is it a dangerous thing for you to admit that you think these things about the phenomenon?
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I think it's dangerously necessary. I think that this is the kind of thing that if we continue to ignore it, if we continue to ignore the potential danger of what it might represent, we are putting ourselves at risk, both to what it might do to us sometime in the future, but then ignoring the fear of the phenomenon.
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The fear of the phenomenon of what these things are capable of doing.
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Let's talk about it. What is it?
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You know, I wish I knew, and of all the people that I've spoken with on the inside, there's really very little unanimity about what it is, except for that whatever it is appears to be so far advanced from us that it beggars understanding.
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So you don't think it's human?
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I'm sure it's not human.
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Yes. It certainly acts it, and in some cases it seems to have a sense of humor.
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So Gary, the implications of what you're saying there are enormous, aren't they?
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You're suggesting that there is a highly advanced civilization that is intelligent, it's not human, and it's real.
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Yeah, I almost hesitate even to call it a civilization. A civilization implies a lot of interacting parts that are moving towards some sort of goal.
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I couldn't even say whether or not what it is that is being observed is something like that.
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Wow. I mean, I have listened to so many people talk about this topic over the years, and I actually get a little excited when I see Gary Nolan talking about it, because he's the perfect kind of witness.
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He's credible to the nth degree. Nobody doubts he is who he is. Nobody doubts that he's important, and nobody doubts that he's thought so much about this entire issue that confronts us.
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So when he voices his opinions like that, Ross, I mean, I get goosebumps.
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And the thing is, he's just the first of many.
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If we were to spend the entire time just talking about all the different people who are starting to step forward now and tell their stories, whether they are some might be experiencers, but others are pilots like Ryan Graves.
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And then you've got Lou Elizondo, who has become sort of the face of the UAP thing over the years, and he has been talking since 2017 about this.
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And now I almost thought Lou Elizondo was getting overexposed, and I wondered, is Gary Nolan the new Lou Elizondo?
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I think he might be, because he is a profoundly interesting person to hear talk about it.
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Now, having said that and talked about how incredibly potent he is as a communicator on this issue, I have to say, we need to bring up the whole concept of the Wilson Davis memo.
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Now, I know there are people listening and watching who go, I don't know what that is.
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But for the people who don't know what it is, I'm going to let you set that one up.
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So, the important thing to understand about the Wilson Davis memo is that it's a document allegedly written by a guy called Dr. Eric Davis, who's an astrophysicist of great renown, now working for a government corporation called the Aerospace Corporation.
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And it wasn't meant to become public. It's a document that purportedly records Eric Davis's conversation with Admiral Tom Wilson, who at the time was the immediate past director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, the, if you like, top spy agency for the Defense Department of the United States.
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And in that conversation, if it is a true record of what actually happened to Tom Wilson, Tom Wilson allegedly described a UFO crash retrieval program being concealed inside U.S. government and private corporate aerospace.
[0:41:34 - 0:41:55] ▶
It's an incredible conspiracy. But the amazing thing is, in my interview with Professor Gary Nolan, Professor Gary Nolan confirmed he believes that the memo is authentic and that it records real events. Have a listen to what Gary told me.
[0:41:55 - 0:42:14] ▶
Are you aware of a document called the Admiral Wilson document?
[0:42:14 - 0:42:17] ▶
Do you think it's genuine?
[0:42:18 - 0:42:19] ▶
I mean, I know Eric Davis and, you know, Eric is of a kind of character that it's just impossible for him to lie.
[0:42:21 - 0:42:31] ▶
The significance of that document is that the former immediate director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, Admiral Thomas Wilson, allegedly had a conversation with Dr. Eric Davis, a renowned physicist,
[0:42:31 - 0:42:46] ▶
where he imparted his discovery that there was a secret UFO reverse engineering program going on inside the U.S. government where they were hiding recovered spacecraft.
[0:42:46 - 0:42:59] ▶
And it was being hidden in private aerospace, in a private aerospace corporation.
[0:43:00 - 0:43:05] ▶
Now, the journalist in me, Gary, thinks Americans can't keep secrets. I mean, everything leaks in this country.
[0:43:05 - 0:43:12] ▶
And this is an example of it.
[0:43:12 - 0:43:14] ▶
So you take that point.
[0:43:15 - 0:43:16] ▶
Ultimately, it did leak.
[0:43:17 - 0:43:18] ▶
Ultimately, it leaked.
[0:43:18 - 0:43:19] ▶
But what was interesting was that how it was found.
[0:43:19 - 0:43:22] ▶
It was found in Edgar Mitchell's effects after he died.
[0:43:22 - 0:43:28] ▶
So it wasn't like anybody went out of their way to put it out there.
[0:43:28 - 0:43:33] ▶
But that's Apollo 14 astronaut, Edgar Mitchell.
[0:43:33 - 0:43:35] ▶
And Eric Davis had written it.
[0:43:37 - 0:43:39] ▶
And I don't know what the story was as to how Edgar got—Dr. Mitchell got a hold of it.
[0:43:39 - 0:43:45] ▶
But nobody was looking to actively reveal this.
[0:43:45 - 0:43:48] ▶
It was the work of journalists who finally got a hold of Edgar's materials who decided to release it.
[0:43:48 - 0:43:57] ▶
So why would Eric Davis lie about writing something that he never intended to go public in the first place?
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He was just doing what an intelligence agent does on a regular basis, which is write reports of what it is that they've been doing.
[0:44:05 - 0:44:12] ▶
And Eric quite conspicuously has never made any comment one way or the other about the veracity of the document.
[0:44:12 - 0:44:18] ▶
But well before this came to light, I already knew of the document.
[0:44:23 - 0:44:30] ▶
So, because, you know, Eric was part of a group that I was associated with around this.
[0:44:30 - 0:44:37] ▶
The implications of that are mind-blowing, Gary.
[0:44:37 - 0:44:40] ▶
I mean, this conversation, you've told me that you believe on evidence that there is a non-human intelligence of advanced technology on this planet.
[0:44:41 - 0:44:52] ▶
Advanced capabilities.
[0:44:53 - 0:44:54] ▶
Now, I don't know whether it's a technology per se because I'm leaving open the idea that it's some form of consciousness that is non-material.
[0:44:54 - 0:45:03] ▶
And I know, saying to my colleagues out there, I know this all sounds absolutely crazy,
[0:45:03 - 0:45:08] ▶
but if you've seen the things that I've seen, you would only be able to come to a similar conclusion.
[0:45:08 - 0:45:15] ▶
You know, and I know, again, my reputation takes a hit.
[0:45:15 - 0:45:19] ▶
I'm sure that there are, you know, prizes and other things that I am never going to get because I'm talking about this.
[0:45:19 - 0:45:26] ▶
That's nowhere near as important as this subject matter to me.
[0:45:27 - 0:45:31] ▶
The best science, isn't it, is when you go against the grain.
[0:45:31 - 0:45:34] ▶
Well, that's the, you know, Thomas Kuhn's book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.
[0:45:35 - 0:45:42] ▶
Eventually, the anomalies and the things that don't fit the picture add up to the point where you can't ignore it anymore.
[0:45:42 - 0:45:50] ▶
And so that's what has just recently happened.
[0:45:50 - 0:45:53] ▶
We're watching a Kuhnian moment.
[0:45:53 - 0:45:55] ▶
So we like to talk about provenance in the UFO business.
[0:45:55 - 0:46:00] ▶
Where did documents come from?
[0:46:00 - 0:46:01] ▶
How was a photo taken?
[0:46:01 - 0:46:03] ▶
Who didn't handle it?
[0:46:04 - 0:46:05] ▶
So what I find so interesting about the Wilson Davis memo is how it came to us.
[0:46:05 - 0:46:11] ▶
There was an astronaut, Edgar Mitchell, from Apollo 14.
[0:46:11 - 0:46:16] ▶
I think he was the pilot for Apollo 14.
[0:46:16 - 0:46:21] ▶
And he was very active in the UAP movement.
[0:46:21 - 0:46:25] ▶
He passed away a few years ago.
[0:46:25 - 0:46:27] ▶
And when they were going through his things, they found this memo in it.
[0:46:27 - 0:46:32] ▶
So it isn't like somebody just leaked it.
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It was like something that Edgar Mitchell had been holding privately, and then it got out.
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So I think the provenance is interesting on it.
[0:46:40 - 0:46:43] ▶
But when Gary Nolan says, oh, yeah, that's the real thing, I get shivers on that one, too, because of what it says.
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And as you said, Ross, it wants to say that there is a crash retrieval and reverse engineering program not being done right now by the U.S. government, but being done by private enterprise.
[0:46:51 - 0:47:04] ▶
Now, why would that happen?
[0:47:04 - 0:47:06] ▶
It would happen because the Department of Defense and the government knows that these FOIA, Freedom of Information, requests can pull documents out of the U.S. government.
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But there's no way to pull a document out of a private enterprise.
[0:47:16 - 0:47:21] ▶
So that may explain a lot of things.
[0:47:21 - 0:47:24] ▶
Yeah, I don't think we can overestimate the significance of somebody like Professor Gary Nolan, who's a close personal friend of Eric Davis,
[0:47:24 - 0:47:33] ▶
and very much an insider.
[0:47:33 - 0:47:35] ▶
The thing about Gary is he's plugged into the intelligence community.
[0:47:35 - 0:47:39] ▶
He's been working with the CIA, doing secret investigations for the CIA into military and intelligence personnel, including pilots, who've been exposed to UAPs.
[0:47:39 - 0:47:51] ▶
He's very highly valued and very well regarded inside the U.S. intelligence and defense community.
[0:47:51 - 0:47:57] ▶
So to have somebody of his reputation saying what he says is quite awe inspiring.
[0:47:57 - 0:48:02] ▶
The other thing, Bryce, that he astonished me with was his candor about his own personal reasons for why he takes the UAP issue seriously.
[0:48:02 - 0:48:13] ▶
Because Professor Gary Nolan is an experiencer.
[0:48:13 - 0:48:17] ▶
Ever since he was a child, he's had weird encounters, experiences that he can't explain.
[0:48:17 - 0:48:25] ▶
Have a listen to what he told me.
[0:48:25 - 0:48:27] ▶
So I was a paper boy.
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This was in Connecticut, Windsor, Connecticut.
[0:48:29 - 0:48:31] ▶
And there was a man at the end of one of the streets who needed his paper by 5.30 in the morning.
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And so I would always be there, so I know about the time.
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And I delivered his paper.
[0:48:47 - 0:48:49] ▶
And then there was basically a copse of woods through which I had to walk to get to the next street to walk the other way.
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I delivered the papers there.
[0:48:55 - 0:48:58] ▶
And because it was March, there were no leaves on the trees.
[0:48:58 - 0:49:03] ▶
And as I was walking through the woods, I could see my shadow in front of me and the shadows of the branches around me.
[0:49:03 - 0:49:09] ▶
Which first kind of caught me off guard because I didn't remember the moon being out.
[0:49:09 - 0:49:15] ▶
But what was more, I guess, dramatic was that the shadows began to move as I was walking.
[0:49:15 - 0:49:23] ▶
And they were moving as if there was a light behind me that was moving.
[0:49:23 - 0:49:28] ▶
Which caused me to look up and see an object right at the top of the trees go right over my head silently.
[0:49:28 - 0:49:35] ▶
What sort of object?
[0:49:35 - 0:49:36] ▶
It just was a kind of roundish object with, I remember, kind of like four or five whitish lights pointing down.
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But, you know, I think, I can't even remember how old I was, 10 or 12, whatever it was.
[0:49:44 - 0:49:49] ▶
No, I wasn't scared because I didn't know what it was.
[0:49:50 - 0:49:53] ▶
And I didn't immediately say to myself, I mean, this would have been 1972, 73.
[0:49:53 - 0:49:59] ▶
And I didn't say, oh, there was a UFO because I didn't even know what a UFO was.
[0:49:59 - 0:50:05] ▶
And it really wasn't until about 20 years or so later that as I paid attention, as anybody does, to movies and things and UFOs.
[0:50:05 - 0:50:15] ▶
And it kind of clicked in my head.
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I said, wait, what was, was that what I saw?
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And so, you know, this is, that story is like the story of many people.
[0:50:20 - 0:50:27] ▶
And so, I now look at that as, let's, I would call it again, preliminary evidence, preliminary data.
[0:50:27 - 0:50:34] ▶
I said, okay, well, that's worth understanding.
[0:50:34 - 0:50:37] ▶
And if other people are seeing the same thing, that's a kind of confirmation.
[0:50:37 - 0:50:41] ▶
So why are people, I, as I've told you in prior conversations, why are these people being derided for just reporting what they've seen?
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Because if it is something else like that, it should be, it should interest any scientist in my mind.
[0:50:52 - 0:50:59] ▶
You have had other experiences too, haven't you?
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Can you talk about those?
[0:51:03 - 0:51:05] ▶
You know, this is probably the more unusual one.
[0:51:05 - 0:51:07] ▶
And again, it's, I'm hardly the only individual to have had this is you wake up as a, as a young boy, I would have been probably six or seven,
[0:51:07 - 0:51:16] ▶
because it was in our first house that we, my parents had bought in Windsor, of little men in the bedroom.
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You know, I mean, I was awake.
[0:51:24 - 0:51:27] ▶
I knew they were there.
[0:51:27 - 0:51:29] ▶
I can't remember being scared, but I remember telling my parents the next day about it.
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Could it have been a dream?
[0:51:40 - 0:51:41] ▶
It could have been a dream.
[0:51:41 - 0:51:43] ▶
But when, so here's the interesting thing.
[0:51:43 - 0:51:46] ▶
I saw these little men in the, in the bedroom.
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And it went on for, I guess, a few weeks.
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And then it just stopped.
[0:51:54 - 0:51:56] ▶
So I promptly forgot about it.
[0:51:56 - 0:52:00] ▶
But what was critical was about 20 years again later, actually here in Palo Alto, I was at a used bookstore.
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And I pulled out a book.
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And I'm pretty sure it was, it was either John Max or Whitley Stryver's book.
[0:52:14 - 0:52:19] ▶
And there on the front cover was, and I can feel the hair on my arms going up, was what I saw.
[0:52:21 - 0:52:29] ▶
That's the classic gray alien face.
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And I remember I dropped the book.
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Because it was like, whoa.
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And it was, it was a revelation, I guess.
[0:52:38 - 0:52:42] ▶
You had another experience in London that I thought was quite important.
[0:52:42 - 0:52:45] ▶
Yeah, that was an interesting one because, you know, for no good reason, lying there in the
[0:52:46 - 0:52:51] ▶
bed in the hotel, I woke up with my entire body buzzing.
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Like I was sitting in an electric water bath.
[0:52:58 - 0:53:02] ▶
And I've, you know, I've been in Japan, for instance, where electric water baths are the, kind of the thing.
[0:53:02 - 0:53:06] ▶
This was a very different experience.
[0:53:06 - 0:53:08] ▶
Everything from the tip of my fingers down to the tips of my toes, ears, I could feel this buzzing.
[0:53:08 - 0:53:15] ▶
But at the moment of waking up, there were, and I don't even, can't even call them words, there was a, let's say, there was words in my head that said, this is how you connect.
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And, but it wasn't, that wasn't the word, but that's the best translation of the moment.
[0:53:31 - 0:53:37] ▶
And after about 10 to 15 seconds of this, I just, you know, and this is why I don't think it was physiologic necessarily, some sort of odd physiologic effect.
[0:53:37 - 0:53:48] ▶
I just said, this has to stop.
[0:53:48 - 0:53:51] ▶
I mean, it's a big deal when you start talking about crash retrievals, because that involves wreckage.
[0:53:58 - 0:54:05] ▶
It involves actual craft.
[0:54:05 - 0:54:07] ▶
It involves reverse engineering.
[0:54:07 - 0:54:09] ▶
That's kind of shocking.
[0:54:10 - 0:54:11] ▶
But now we go into the experiencer column.
[0:54:11 - 0:54:13] ▶
And to be honest with you, part of me, even though I understand that it's happening to him, has happened to him.
[0:54:13 - 0:54:20] ▶
If there is a stigma left, it isn't so much the stigma of saying that UFOs might be real.
[0:54:20 - 0:54:26] ▶
That stigma is going away.
[0:54:26 - 0:54:28] ▶
The stigma that, that still seems to reside is the experiencer stigma.
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Because think about that.
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That means that somebody, non-human, is taking people who don't want to be taken and doing things to them.
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And nobody can do anything about it.
[0:54:44 - 0:54:47] ▶
So if that was happening, you'd say, well, why wouldn't the, you know, why does the government not disclose what it knows?
[0:54:47 - 0:54:54] ▶
Well, if you were the president of the United States, would you want to go on TV and say, yeah, they pull us out of our bedrooms and they do things to us and we can't stop it?
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I don't think that's a winner in any political election.
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So, yeah, I take the experiencer experience that he's talking about.
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It's almost like I wish he didn't have to have that stigma around him because he's such an incredible witness outside of that.
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But you've got to take it with what it is.
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And I will say this.
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I've had a lot of experience with that experiencer thing.
[0:55:25 - 0:55:29] ▶
I've I'm pretty widely read and knowledgeable about the Betty and Barney Hill case, for example, which goes back to 1961 in America.
[0:55:29 - 0:55:39] ▶
They were the interracial couple that first actually claimed to be abducted by aliens.
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And there's been so many since then.
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And when the Hill case came out, people were shocked.
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They had to get more about it.
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But they weren't so sure that was real and they didn't think it was common.
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It was this one strange moment in our history where this thing happened, people thought.
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But then as the years have gone on, we get more and more people reporting this this thing.
[0:56:02 - 0:56:09] ▶
But it's real enough.
[0:56:11 - 0:56:13] ▶
So, Bryce, there is a story that you have been personally involved in that I find absolutely fascinating.
[0:56:13 - 0:56:20] ▶
And it goes to the whole mythology that over the years, the U.S. defense and intelligence community has tried to influence what Hollywood puts out.
[0:56:20 - 0:56:32] ▶
Now, just to explain to our audience, you are a very accomplished Hollywood producer and screenwriter in your own right.
[0:56:32 - 0:56:39] ▶
You're actually the former chairman of the Emmy Awards.
[0:56:39 - 0:56:43] ▶
You've written multiple award winning movies.
[0:56:43 - 0:56:47] ▶
What happened to you and your colleague, Brent Friedman, when you were doing the launch party for your Dark Skies series?
[0:56:47 - 0:57:00] ▶
Just give us a bit of an introduction.
[0:57:00 - 0:57:02] ▶
We're going to run a bit of an interview from Brent Friedman, your colleague.
[0:57:02 - 0:57:06] ▶
But just tell our audience what the context was for what Brent's about to tell us.
[0:57:06 - 0:57:12] ▶
Well, here's the interesting thing.
[0:57:12 - 0:57:14] ▶
You talked about the mythology of the government and some kind of symbiotic relationship with Hollywood.
[0:57:14 - 0:57:21] ▶
I don't know how extensive it's been, although there are cases that go back to the, frankly, 1950.
[0:57:21 - 0:57:27] ▶
I personally have experienced it with my Dark Skies television series co-creator, Brent Friedman.
[0:57:27 - 0:57:33] ▶
We created a series called Dark Skies that aired on NBC in the 90s at the same time The X-Files was out, I should tell you.
[0:57:33 - 0:57:42] ▶
And we had an incident that happened to us that I just have never heard anyone else have anything quite like it.
[0:57:42 - 0:57:50] ▶
This is what happened.
[0:57:50 - 0:57:51] ▶
We decided to have a Dark Skies premiere party for when the show was first going to air.
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It was a two-hour episode.
[0:57:57 - 0:57:59] ▶
It was on September 21, 1996.
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And we had a party, 200 people who were cast and crew and the network executives, the studio executives.
[0:58:03 - 0:58:12] ▶
And we had it at my house.
[0:58:12 - 0:58:13] ▶
So we have all these people coming to my house to watch the show that has not yet aired.
[0:58:14 - 0:58:20] ▶
And while that was happening, we were approached by a gentleman who got into my house, a guy that got into my house.
[0:58:21 - 0:58:29] ▶
I knew everybody else, 200 people there, knew them all, didn't know this guy.
[0:58:29 - 0:58:33] ▶
And he approached Brent and myself as the co-creators of the show, said he was from the Office of Naval Intelligence, and they wanted to help us.
[0:58:33 - 0:58:42] ▶
Now, I'm going to let Brent tell a little bit more of the story now.
[0:58:42 - 0:58:46] ▶
He was not a man in black.
[0:58:46 - 0:58:48] ▶
He looked like a young Republican.
[0:58:48 - 0:58:51] ▶
He looked like a young politician, right, if anything.
[0:58:51 - 0:58:55] ▶
And he came up and introduced himself and said that he was a big fan of the show and he loved what he had seen.
[0:58:55 - 0:59:04] ▶
And again, the show is in the middle of a broadcast, right, for the first time on television.
[0:59:04 - 0:59:12] ▶
And he's already talking about that he's seen the whole thing, which struck me as odd.
[0:59:12 - 0:59:18] ▶
And as we started to have a conversation, he had said, yeah, I just I was sent here by some very interested people to let you know that we really appreciate what you and Bryce are doing with the show.
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And we wanted to help.
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And that was my reaction.
[0:59:34 - 0:59:37] ▶
That very face you made was my face.
[0:59:37 - 0:59:39] ▶
And again, I can't tell you how surreal this was because I'm trying to, like, keep an eye on the party.
[0:59:39 - 0:59:46] ▶
But I'm talking to this guy and I'm I'm very confused as to who he is and why I'm having this conversation with him.
[0:59:46 - 0:59:53] ▶
But it's kind of fascinating.
[0:59:53 - 0:59:54] ▶
So I keep talking and I say, well, I don't I don't understand.
[0:59:54 - 0:59:57] ▶
How do you think you can help?
[0:59:57 - 0:59:58] ▶
And he said, well, you've actually got a lot of truth in your show, but you can have a lot more if you work with myself and my partners.
[0:59:58 - 1:00:10] ▶
We're prepared to come in and tell you some really interesting things.
[1:00:10 - 1:00:14] ▶
And so this guy said, well, I'm going to let you get back to your party.
[1:00:14 - 1:00:16] ▶
I've already taken up too much of your time, but I want to leave you with something.
[1:00:16 - 1:00:21] ▶
I was like, OK, so he asked my wife, do you have a paper and pencil or something in your purse?
[1:00:21 - 1:00:28] ▶
So she pulls out something and she gives it to him.
[1:00:28 - 1:00:31] ▶
And he starts to scribble down like she's writing on a checkbook, a piece of paper on a check on her checkbook.
[1:00:31 - 1:00:37] ▶
He writes something down and he folds it up and he said, do me a favor.
[1:00:37 - 1:00:41] ▶
Put it in a safety deposit box and in about 15 or 20 years, take it out.
[1:00:42 - 1:00:49] ▶
See if there's if this predicts any particular truth.
[1:00:49 - 1:00:55] ▶
And I was like, can I look at it now?
[1:00:55 - 1:00:59] ▶
So I open it up and it's this weird formula.
[1:01:02 - 1:01:05] ▶
It's like a weird math equation, but with hieroglyphs and all sorts of stuff.
[1:01:05 - 1:01:10] ▶
And I said, well, what is this?
[1:01:10 - 1:01:14] ▶
And he said, sound, light and frequency, secrets of the universe.
[1:01:14 - 1:01:18] ▶
Nice talking with you.
[1:01:18 - 1:01:20] ▶
And then he walks over, walks and he kind of goes into the bushes and he's like,
[1:01:20 - 1:01:24] ▶
And my wife is like, I know it sounds ridiculous, but this is what happened.
[1:01:25 - 1:01:36] ▶
Did you witness any of this?
[1:01:36 - 1:01:37] ▶
It's almost interesting.
[1:01:38 - 1:01:39] ▶
It would have been a great experiment to put Brent in one room and me in another room and have us tell the story.
[1:01:39 - 1:01:45] ▶
Because I can confirm all of the details.
[1:01:45 - 1:01:48] ▶
It was very antagonistic.
[1:01:48 - 1:01:49] ▶
And the meeting ultimately went nowhere.
[1:01:50 - 1:01:53] ▶
It's like, I think I got the sense that this guy that I met in Bryce's yard, who called himself JC, that's all he would tell me about himself.
[1:01:53 - 1:02:03] ▶
That he was trying to broker something with this military person from the Navy.
[1:02:03 - 1:02:09] ▶
They started throwing around, you know, and I don't remember the differentiation, but there was a group called the aviary and there was a group called the aquarium.
[1:02:09 - 1:02:17] ▶
They were different.
[1:02:17 - 1:02:19] ▶
One aviary was the air force, I think.
[1:02:19 - 1:02:22] ▶
The aquarium was trying to get the truth out and the aviary was trying to shut it down.
[1:02:24 - 1:02:28] ▶
And so these guys, and so I felt that JC was trying to negotiate something with the aquarium to get some truths out in television.
[1:02:28 - 1:02:36] ▶
And they wanted to help us come up with some story ideas.
[1:02:37 - 1:02:40] ▶
They did not want story credit and they did not want money.
[1:02:40 - 1:02:43] ▶
And in particular, though, I remember one thing that irritated them.
[1:02:43 - 1:02:46] ▶
Um, we had a great, I guess, storyline and series laid out about a conspiracy.
[1:02:46 - 1:02:55] ▶
One of the things that Brent brought to the party, because he had kind of a horror film background at that point, is we added this thing where the aliens were, we called it the ganglion, and they would infest a person, you know, physically.
[1:02:56 - 1:03:10] ▶
And so you had ganglions coming out of people's mouths and all that.
[1:03:10 - 1:03:14] ▶
I remember they were like, that's not the way it works.
[1:03:14 - 1:03:17] ▶
And we were like, we don't care if that's the way it works.
[1:03:18 - 1:03:21] ▶
It's the way it works in dark skies.
[1:03:21 - 1:03:23] ▶
Yeah, it's a TV show.
[1:03:23 - 1:03:24] ▶
But they were like, no, see, you're setting everything back because that's not how they really do it.
[1:03:24 - 1:03:28] ▶
So they wanted you to publish what they were saying was the truth.
[1:03:28 - 1:03:31] ▶
Let's assume that's true for a moment.
[1:03:35 - 1:03:36] ▶
Why would any government agency that's presumably presiding over an intentional cover up come to a TV program and try and sew it with aspects of the truth?
[1:03:36 - 1:03:45] ▶
Because JC said to me that this is, it's a drip system, right?
[1:03:45 - 1:03:50] ▶
Like, get the truth out there in small ways.
[1:03:50 - 1:03:52] ▶
And you have a television show that millions of people are watching right now.
[1:03:52 - 1:03:57] ▶
Some people will take it seriously.
[1:03:57 - 1:03:59] ▶
And if we start lacing it with bits of the truth, then we're preparing everybody.
[1:03:59 - 1:04:04] ▶
So, Ross, just to be clear, they were on board with the alien invasion aspect of it.
[1:04:04 - 1:04:10] ▶
They just were not on board with us telling it as a horror story.
[1:04:10 - 1:04:14] ▶
They had issues with that.
[1:04:15 - 1:04:17] ▶
And to answer your question, which is a really excellent one, it's as Brent said, they were looking at a disclosure scenario.
[1:04:17 - 1:04:27] ▶
How ultimately does this secret become known to the public?
[1:04:27 - 1:04:32] ▶
And they said to us that, you know, pretty much what Brent said earlier, you just can't, the president can't come out and say, by the way, here's everything.
[1:04:32 - 1:04:41] ▶
So they wanted to see more of the truth through fiction.
[1:04:43 - 1:04:47] ▶
And in fact, that which was exactly what our show was doing.
[1:04:47 - 1:04:51] ▶
We literally told people in our sales materials when we sold the series that we had been approached to tell the story, the true story under the cover of fiction.
[1:04:51 - 1:05:03] ▶
Could the whole thing have been just a gag?
[1:05:03 - 1:05:06] ▶
You know, was it possible that another TV network or some friend of yours was playing a game with you and that these guys weren't really from the Office of Naval Intelligence?
[1:05:06 - 1:05:14] ▶
Well, I mean, anything is possible.
[1:05:14 - 1:05:16] ▶
I and I'm not I'm not saying that they were from Naval Intelligence.
[1:05:16 - 1:05:20] ▶
I'm telling you what happened.
[1:05:20 - 1:05:21] ▶
And as I experienced it, they did say that it did happen.
[1:05:21 - 1:05:27] ▶
There are multiple witnesses to this guy showing up.
[1:05:27 - 1:05:30] ▶
He called himself J.C.
[1:05:30 - 1:05:31] ▶
And he he laid out his story and what they wanted us to do.
[1:05:31 - 1:05:36] ▶
But the question is, you know, why would they want to help?
[1:05:36 - 1:05:40] ▶
Does anybody really want to help?
[1:05:40 - 1:05:41] ▶
It's it's so strange.
[1:05:41 - 1:05:43] ▶
One of the things that I will tell you that happened is that when you shoot a pilot in the U.S. for the for television, lots of people actually are part of the process to make the pilot.
[1:05:43 - 1:05:56] ▶
But they don't all get to see it.
[1:05:56 - 1:05:58] ▶
So this guy, when he showed up at my house the night of the premier party, said he had seen the pilot and me kind of being, you know, well, a skeptic like yourself.
[1:05:59 - 1:06:09] ▶
Well, what happens after a lone guard sees the crop circle, which I thought, well, that ought to smoke him out pretty good.
[1:06:10 - 1:06:16] ▶
And the guy said, oh, yeah.
[1:06:16 - 1:06:18] ▶
Well, that's where they go back to the majestic 12 headquarters and they they perform the surgery, which is exactly what happens.
[1:06:18 - 1:06:25] ▶
And keep in mind, do you think he was saying that some of do you think he was saying that some of what you were putting in your program was actually true?
[1:06:26 - 1:06:36] ▶
Yeah, even though you and Brent had just made this stuff up.
[1:06:36 - 1:06:38] ▶
That's exactly what he said.
[1:06:38 - 1:06:40] ▶
He said that they had seen our pilot and they obviously had had.
[1:06:40 - 1:06:47] ▶
I mean, they had seen the pilot and that they thought it was very good.
[1:06:47 - 1:06:51] ▶
And they I guess they thought there would be the drip, drip, drip of disclosure.
[1:06:51 - 1:06:55] ▶
And we were part of telling the truth under the cover of fiction, which was kind of the the way that we sold the Dark Skies series in the first place.
[1:06:55 - 1:07:04] ▶
So I guess what this fellow was saying is we think there are some things that you could put into your show that would be even more helpful.
[1:07:04 - 1:07:13] ▶
Now, to that, I said, I'm a Hollywood producer, as you just pointed out.
[1:07:13 - 1:07:17] ▶
I really don't want guys from O and I giving me ideas.
[1:07:17 - 1:07:21] ▶
They're not going to be in our TV series or whatever.
[1:07:21 - 1:07:24] ▶
But they did say that they are.
[1:07:24 - 1:07:30] ▶
For example, one of the things in the Dark Skies series is there is a ganglion that kind of infest somebody's head and then it gets out of their head.
[1:07:30 - 1:07:38] ▶
That's what bothered them, Ross.
[1:07:38 - 1:07:41] ▶
They said, well, that's not the way it works.
[1:07:41 - 1:07:44] ▶
And I said, well, I don't care how it works.
[1:07:44 - 1:07:46] ▶
This is a TV series.
[1:07:46 - 1:07:47] ▶
You know, we're it's drama.
[1:07:47 - 1:07:49] ▶
And he goes, yeah, but, you know, that one is just not quite the way it works.
[1:07:50 - 1:07:54] ▶
You could do better on that.
[1:07:54 - 1:07:55] ▶
So he's actually implying that there are aliens that are possessing people.
[1:07:58 - 1:08:02] ▶
I think what he not necessarily.
[1:08:02 - 1:08:05] ▶
I think what he was implying was you have turned the alien human conflict into a horror show.
[1:08:05 - 1:08:13] ▶
You're using the tropes of a horror film.
[1:08:14 - 1:08:16] ▶
And I think what I took from it and I could be wrong.
[1:08:16 - 1:08:19] ▶
But what I took from it is he meant it would be more sophisticated, like a like an implant that many abductees have stated they've got that it would be done more in a more sophisticated way, which I agree probably is true.
[1:08:19 - 1:08:33] ▶
But we were telling a dramatic story.
[1:08:33 - 1:08:36] ▶
Now, Bryce, we've got to come to an end on this show, but I can't let you go without asking you.
[1:08:36 - 1:08:42] ▶
Come on, a napkin with the secrets of the universe, sound, light and frequency.
[1:08:42 - 1:08:49] ▶
What the hell does that mean?
[1:08:49 - 1:08:51] ▶
Well, I'll tell you something.
[1:08:51 - 1:08:52] ▶
I know it's easy to say what you just said.
[1:08:52 - 1:08:55] ▶
I mean, I would say it myself to you if you were telling the story.
[1:08:55 - 1:09:00] ▶
But I will say that when I was there and this happened, I did not for a second think I was being goofed on by somebody.
[1:09:00 - 1:09:08] ▶
I felt like this guy wrote this thing down.
[1:09:08 - 1:09:12] ▶
I remembered it as a napkin.
[1:09:12 - 1:09:15] ▶
Brent remembers it as just a regular piece of paper.
[1:09:15 - 1:09:18] ▶
But he wrote this thing down that looked like a formula.
[1:09:18 - 1:09:21] ▶
He did it quickly and he showed it to us.
[1:09:21 - 1:09:24] ▶
And he said, you should keep this.
[1:09:24 - 1:09:26] ▶
And in a few years, 10, 15 years, see how it reads to you.
[1:09:26 - 1:09:31] ▶
And I said, what is it?
[1:09:31 - 1:09:32] ▶
And he said, sound, light and frequency, secret of the universe.
[1:09:32 - 1:09:37] ▶
Now, you laugh, but I remember I saw Tom DeLonge not long ago, I believe on the Joe Rogan show,
[1:09:37 - 1:09:46] ▶
but might have been some other show talking about sound, light and frequency.
[1:09:46 - 1:09:50] ▶
You just took my line.
[1:09:51 - 1:09:52] ▶
I was going to say that's what chilled me out at center.
[1:09:52 - 1:09:55] ▶
Shiver down my spine when Tom started talking about sound, light and frequency.
[1:09:55 - 1:10:00] ▶
And for people who don't know who Tom DeLonge is, Tom is the former lead singer of Blink 182,
[1:10:00 - 1:10:06] ▶
a punk pop rock band.
[1:10:06 - 1:10:08] ▶
And he's also been behind the scenes and now more publicly, a very public face for UFO, UAP transparency.
[1:10:08 - 1:10:17] ▶
And in fact, Tom's one of the people I'd love us to get.
[1:10:17 - 1:10:21] ▶
Because he's one of my heroes.
[1:10:24 - 1:10:25] ▶
I know a lot of us have given him a lot of stick.
[1:10:25 - 1:10:28] ▶
Tom, I apologize for mocking your US accent in my book in plain sight in my audio edition.
[1:10:28 - 1:10:34] ▶
But I can tell you the audience love you.
[1:10:34 - 1:10:37] ▶
I feel like Ross that.
[1:10:38 - 1:10:40] ▶
Well, first of all, it was just great to meet you in person.
[1:10:40 - 1:10:44] ▶
I think it makes our shows even better.
[1:10:44 - 1:10:46] ▶
It was certainly a strange moment in my life to have something like that happen.
[1:10:46 - 1:10:50] ▶
And we had a great time out there on the boat.
[1:10:50 - 1:10:53] ▶
Literally, as we were coming back, we had a chance for the two of us, Ross, to sort of sit out there and enjoy being out on the ocean.
[1:10:53 - 1:11:01] ▶
Because it's lovely here in Southern California, although it's lovely in Australia, too.
[1:11:01 - 1:11:06] ▶
But we got to get a little expansive and ask ourselves, what does this all mean?
[1:11:06 - 1:11:10] ▶
Because no matter how much you study about it, no matter how many cases you look into, no matter what book you read or what report you read,
[1:11:10 - 1:11:20] ▶
at the end of the day, trying to figure out what it all means is the part that is so fascinating.
[1:11:20 - 1:11:27] ▶
So speculation is required on that one.
[1:11:27 - 1:11:30] ▶
I never get tired of thinking about it.
[1:11:30 - 1:11:34] ▶
I'm not sure what the answer is.
[1:11:34 - 1:11:35] ▶
But for me, I think about all the things that we've talked to people about, the places we've been on this road trip.
[1:11:35 - 1:11:41] ▶
And I think of it as a giant puzzle.
[1:11:41 - 1:11:45] ▶
And every person has a piece of that puzzle.
[1:11:45 - 1:11:48] ▶
And the more people we've talked to, the closer I'm getting.
[1:11:48 - 1:11:52] ▶
But I'm not there yet.
[1:11:52 - 1:11:53] ▶
The only thing I know is that there is a mystery that is real.
[1:11:53 - 1:11:57] ▶
We're agreed on that.
[1:11:58 - 1:11:59] ▶
There's a phenomenon that defies explanation, apparently, according to your government.
[1:12:00 - 1:12:06] ▶
My government completely ignores it.
[1:12:06 - 1:12:09] ▶
But there's a technology, isn't there?
[1:12:09 - 1:12:12] ▶
There's a technology, and there seems to be a plan of some kind.
[1:12:12 - 1:12:16] ▶
I can't say it's the best plan.
[1:12:16 - 1:12:17] ▶
But someone has a plan to bring this to the forefront in a way that they had not done before.
[1:12:18 - 1:12:24] ▶
Yeah, I actually do.
[1:12:24 - 1:12:26] ▶
I get the strong impression that inside the U.S. government there are people who are trying to slowly bring to the attention of not just the American public, but the world, the fact that potentially, and I'm not saying this for sure, potentially, we are not alone.
[1:12:26 - 1:12:43] ▶
And if we're not alone, and this has been known for as many years as we suspect might have been true, it really does raise questions about what the rest of that story is.
[1:12:43 - 1:12:53] ▶
That's the part of the puzzle I can't figure out.
[1:12:53 - 1:12:55] ▶
I just can't figure out why these guys have kept it secret.
[1:12:55 - 1:12:59] ▶
Unless there's a good reason.
[1:12:59 - 1:13:01] ▶
Well, there should be a good reason to keep it secret.
[1:13:01 - 1:13:04] ▶
What that reason is, I don't think we know yet.
[1:13:04 - 1:13:07] ▶
But you're in no doubt, like me, aren't you, that there's a reality there.
[1:13:07 - 1:13:11] ▶
You can't dismiss this as a prosaic phenomenon.
[1:13:11 - 1:13:13] ▶
You can't say it's, there's not a weather balloon that can explain the tic-tac.
[1:13:13 - 1:13:17] ▶
You used to be able to do that when the government was saying nothing to see here and if you see anything, you're either a liar or a hoaxer or whatever.
[1:13:17 - 1:13:25] ▶
But now the government is saying the opposite.
[1:13:25 - 1:13:27] ▶
They're saying, yes, these things are real, we just don't know what they are.
[1:13:27 - 1:13:30] ▶
Okay, well, if we've admitted they're real, then, well, Ross, I'd say if they're real, our job's just getting started.
[1:13:30 - 1:13:36] ▶
It's exciting though.
[1:13:36 - 1:13:37] ▶
I find it, it's a profound story because ultimately what I think it's leading us to isn't just, is there a technology there?
[1:13:38 - 1:13:48] ▶
It's a consciousness, it's an intelligence potentially, isn't it?
[1:13:48 - 1:13:52] ▶
If there is another technology out there that's not ours, somebody made it.
[1:13:52 - 1:13:58] ▶
And I'd like to know who that is.
[1:13:58 - 1:14:00] ▶
I'm not excluding the possibility that somewhere, someone, a human, has developed technology that is mind-bogglingly ahead of what we currently know about.
[1:14:00 - 1:14:10] ▶
It's not impossible that somewhere in Southern California there's an aerospace company that's developed anti-gravity or free energy, you know, incredible capacities of room temperature superconductors.
[1:14:10 - 1:14:24] ▶
But everybody's telling us it's not there yet.
[1:14:24 - 1:14:28] ▶
I'm willing to accept all that except for the fact that if it really started in 2004, as you mentioned at the beginning of this, what about going back to 1947?
[1:14:28 - 1:14:40] ▶
What about the 50s and the 60s?
[1:14:40 - 1:14:41] ▶
Did these technologies exist?
[1:14:42 - 1:14:44] ▶
It's always been here.
[1:14:44 - 1:14:46] ▶
I really feel as we drove around and met these people, I just felt like we are on the cusp of history.
[1:14:46 - 1:14:56] ▶
I don't know how you felt.
[1:14:56 - 1:14:58] ▶
Look, I completely agree with you.
[1:14:58 - 1:15:00] ▶
I get frustrated as an investigative journalist in mainstream media with the fact that so many of my colleagues in mainstream media are still locked into that paradigm of ridicule, stigma and contempt for the subject of UAPs.
[1:15:00 - 1:15:15] ▶
The reality is that ever since the Pentagon, the Congress, the Department of Defence made the admissions that have now been made, it's not possible anymore to dismiss the phenomenon of UAPs as a stigma with ridicule.
[1:15:15 - 1:15:30] ▶
Whatever it is, it's real.
[1:15:31 - 1:15:32] ▶
We're not saying it's little green men from Zeta Reticuli, but even former directors of the CIA, a director of national intelligence, Avril Haines, they've all suggested that
[1:15:32 - 1:15:45] ▶
one possible explanation for what we're talking about is alien, extraterrestrial.
[1:15:45 - 1:15:51] ▶
And I know we've talked about this at length.
[1:15:53 - 1:15:56] ▶
We talked in the car.
[1:15:56 - 1:15:57] ▶
We've talked over 17 or 18 podcasts.
[1:15:57 - 1:16:00] ▶
It's a gift that keeps on giving.
[1:16:00 - 1:16:03] ▶
And I have to say, it's easy to say that there is a cover up.
[1:16:03 - 1:16:09] ▶
That can almost be proved right now.
[1:16:09 - 1:16:12] ▶
It's also easy now to say that the phenomenon is real because the government is saying it.
[1:16:12 - 1:16:17] ▶
Where we all are living right now is trying to make sense of this.
[1:16:17 - 1:16:21] ▶
Okay, if all these strange things have happened and they've happened for decades, what does it all mean?
[1:16:21 - 1:16:27] ▶
What does it all add up to?
[1:16:27 - 1:16:29] ▶
And I say that only because I want people to understand that's why we're doing need to know.
[1:16:29 - 1:16:34] ▶
We do this show because we want to know the answers as well as you do.
[1:16:34 - 1:16:39] ▶
And we are your conduits.
[1:16:39 - 1:16:41] ▶
We are going to look into everything.
[1:16:41 - 1:16:42] ▶
We're going to talk to everybody who will talk to us.
[1:16:42 - 1:16:45] ▶
And we're going to report back to the people who are watching.
[1:16:45 - 1:16:48] ▶
And where necessary, and can we do this as often as possible, let's go on a road trip more often, Bryce.
[1:16:48 - 1:16:54] ▶
I thoroughly enjoyed getting to know you, sharing a few ales with you and a few meals.
[1:16:54 - 1:16:59] ▶
There's something also about pressing the flesh with people and getting to know them face up.
[1:16:59 - 1:17:04] ▶
Well, I'd like to do those on the road routines more often.
[1:17:04 - 1:17:08] ▶
The next one has to be in Australia, my friend.
[1:17:08 - 1:17:11] ▶
And I'll make you drive this time.
[1:17:12 - 1:17:15] ▶
That's how that'll work out.
[1:17:15 - 1:17:17] ▶
And I think that brings this show for need to know to a close.
[1:17:17 - 1:17:21] ▶
We'll be back very soon with more on need to know.
[1:17:21 - 1:17:25] ▶
And if you want to watch it, it's www.needtoknow.today.
[1:17:25 - 1:17:30] ▶
Bryce Zabel in Los Angeles and Ross Coulthard in Sydney.
[1:17:30 - 1:17:35] ▶
And I'll leave you with this, folks.
[1:17:35 - 1:17:36] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:36 - 1:17:38] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:38 - 1:17:40] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:40 - 1:17:42] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:42 - 1:17:44] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:44 - 1:17:45] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:45 - 1:17:46] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:46 - 1:17:47] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:47 - 1:17:48] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:48 - 1:17:49] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:49 - 1:17:51] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:51 - 1:17:52] ▶
And that's how we can handle the truth.
[1:17:52 - 1:17:53] ▶
And just use your voice to be in your mind.
[1:17:53 - 1:17:55] ▶
You can handle the truth.
[1:17:55 - 1:17:56] ▶
So please change the truth.
[1:17:56 - 1:17:57] ▶
We can handle the truth.
[1:17:57 - 1:17:59] ▶
If you wantheard of��는��ars as you talk to me.
[1:17:59 - 1:18:00] ▶
Alright, there's a name and boss.
[1:18:00 - 1:18:01] ▶
How many people wait up here.
[1:18:01 - 1:18:03] ▶
It's been doing this out for a night scene.
[1:18:03 - 1:18:05] ▶
In California, the Elvis, in California.
[1:18:05 - 1:18:06] ▶
And this movie, there's a series where we're celebrating.
[1:18:06 - 1:18:07] ▶