543 segments
Welcome to Reality Check.
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Before we start with this week's show,
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here's a little bit about this week's sponsor.
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Once again, thehealthyfat.com slash Ross.
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Now let's get on with the show.
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Hello and welcome back to Reality Check.
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And we have a guest back with us this week
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who I'm delighted to welcome, Tim Gallaudet.
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He's an American oceanographer and retired rear admiral in the US Navy.
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He's worked at an extremely senior level in the US government,
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including as the assistant secretary of commerce for oceans and atmosphere.
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He was the oceanographer for the entire US Navy working in the Pentagon,
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advising the chief of naval operations.
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He worked also as the acting administrator and deputy administrator
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of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration,
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otherwise known as NOAA during the Trump Administration,
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and NOAA's the nation's leading ocean weather and climate agency.
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I think Tim's shown rear courage as a former senior public official
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with his willingness to speak openly, publicly and candidly about what he knows
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on the UAP and USO issue.
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We've already interviewed him previously here about how he's seen footage of UAPs
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while he was in service with the US Navy.
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And I really admire him because he's expressed support for people like David Grush,
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Louis Luzondo, Christopher Mellon, who've made claims pushing for destigmatization of the UAP issue.
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Now Tim's written a biography to be released in 2025 called
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Holding Fast in Heavy Seas, which he tells me is not intended to be an exhaustive memoir,
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but rather to provide lessons on leadership during challenging circumstances,
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which is quite apt, frankly, for his involvement with UAP at the moment.
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Tim's in a few days going to be giving evidence before the oversight and accountability
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in the US House of Rips. It's quite historic to see somebody of his seniority,
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somebody who's been at a very high rank inside the US military,
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speaking candidly on what he knows on UAPs. So I guess Tim, my first question to you is,
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are you a little bit nervous about this appearance? How do you feel?
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Well, thank you Ross, it's great to be on your show. And no, I'm not nervous at all. Actually,
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I probably might be 10th, 12th hearing. So I've testified a few times in front of Congress.
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And actually, my previous testimonies have been under a little more contentious circumstances,
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where I was trying to defend a budget that maybe the Congress members weren't happy about.
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So this is not worrisome. There's bipartisan support for UAP disclosure, and I'm proud and happy
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to be a champion for that. Could I ask you this, sir, have you at any stage have somebody come
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and sidle up to you quietly in a corridor somewhere and say, I say, Tim, it'd be really good if you
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just piped down a little bit on this issue. Stop rocking the boat on the UAP issue. I guess,
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as a journalist, I'm very used to people from say the defense or intelligence community coming
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up to somebody like me, a journal operating a senior level and saying, listen, there's things you
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don't know about that it would be really helpful if you could just not focus too much on that issue
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because it's raising issues of national security sensitivity. Has anyone ever given you the tap
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to say, please don't rock the boat on the UAP issue?
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Well, let me give you two stories here. First off, I've had numerous people who were in the
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government coming to me and say, I need to tell you my story. Here's what I saw. And these are
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people that in all types of different branches of the US government that had their witnesses,
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their were experiencers of the phenomena that wanted to come to me because of my speaking out
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knowing I have some kind of authority and credibility and they trusted me. And I was the
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first person they ever came to. I'm talking about some marine officers, former aircraft carrier,
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naval personnel, and even people from my former agency know who served on our ships who had
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experiences. So there's that which is fascinating to me and encouraging for me to continue doing
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what I'm doing, knowing that I'm giving people some inspiration and courage to come out.
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But the other aspect about people or anybody in the government saying, Tim Tampet down,
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no, no one's ever done that. But I did visit with the Department of Defense's
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Aldomain Anomaly Resolution Office last year. And now, first of all, they're under new leadership.
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And I make no comments on the current new leadership. I've not met with the new director.
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I understand there might be a change of course, which I would be happy to see. But when I met with
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the prior leadership and they invited me. And in fact, they said, Dave, we want to share with you
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what we're doing. I was a bit disappointed because they didn't tell me to not say what I was saying.
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What they did is they tried to defend a lot of the false narratives they were promoting. And we
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all know this. Do we know the historical records report that they issued that Chris Mellon subsequently
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in the debrief or an article basically chastising and calling out. And they defended that
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tooth and nail. And I couldn't believe it actually. I thought because Chris did a good job. We all
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know his credibility. And they basically proceeded to carry out an influence operation on me.
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Because they know I have access and influence. And so they worked to persuade to me, oh, this is,
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this is this report we wrote is solid, incredible. And I asked him, what did you think of Chris
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Mellon's article? And they told me he was off the mark and in more colorful language. And I
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couldn't believe it to be honest with you. And they were they defended their approach. And I was
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clear to me, this was part of their overall, we know this disinformation campaign against people
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like us who are coming out to advocate for UAP disclosure. Can I ask you this Tim, why?
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Why would a body that has been essentially ordered by Congress to do proper investigations
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into a normalist phenomena and to report back to Congress and the American public? Why would it
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do what I think we both agree it is? It has been doing. And I do hope under the new leadership
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it does change its tone. Why would they seek to disinform and manipulate not only American
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public opinion, but also to try and influence somebody with your reputation and background?
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Well, first off, they, yes, this is a troubling, of course. Now I can only speculate because
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it didn't tell me, of course. And but I've been in the government for almost 40 years. And I
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understand I had a clearance. I still have a clearance actually now. But the the I believe that
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office now you're right. And here's an important distinction. Congress gave them an unclassified
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mandate. They did not give them a classified mandate. The legislation said let's go and
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and explain report on and study the occurrences of UAP. And they've done that to an extent. But this
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historical record report was it was disinformation as clear as day. And so that is not in their
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charter. And that's what's so troubling is they're not following the intent of Congress. And that's
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why thus you're seeing hearings get scheduled and members are not too happy. Now and hopefully the
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new leadership is a sign that okay, they're going to get on board with that. My understanding is this
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and now the director at the time the acting director came to me and he made it very clear to himself.
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He said I'm a title 50 guy. And what he means is that this counterintelligence was his expertise.
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And it's my I assume and I assess I guess that that they want to protect American national
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security interests. They don't want and again I'm speculating okay, but but I know how the government
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operates. They don't want and this is why we classified UAP for in history because we don't want
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our ever series to know our weaknesses that what we can and can't see that we cannot control our
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space and water space. And I get that that's important. But with the Schumer amendment that genie's
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out of the bottle okay. So we really needed to set it up and say okay, look let's not disclose the
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classified information technology wise that we're learning about UAP. I'm okay with that. We don't
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want that to go to the American public or there are adversaries. But the American public has a
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right to know the new nature of reality we know and that the defense department and the intelligence
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community has realized and has evidence of that's not fair to the American public or the global
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citizens in large. So I think this is what has to come out. So Tim you've told this story to
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reality check before but for the benefit of our audience who don't know how you came to the UAP
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issue. It's one of the stories you tell in your book and I'd love you to tell it again. What was
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it that sparked your awareness that frankly we are not alone? Right. It's a it's a giant story
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right? Because this is what we're talking about. We know and we have evidence that we are not alone
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in the universe in terms of intelligent life. It's insane. And why are there not more intellectual
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curiosity on this? Well it's because the government's covered it up. But ultimately my journey started
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out first when I was the superintendent of the Naval Observatory and I worked with the team of
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astrophysicists and I learned how large the universe is. 100 billion to 400 billion stars in the
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Milky Way alone. We know many of them have habitable plans around them and that's just in this galaxy
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and there's up to maybe a trillion other galaxies in the observable universe. It's just space is so
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vast. It's just so naive in myopic to think that we're the only intelligent species and
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species that's developed a means of travel between celestial bodies. I'll be low with the Galileo
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project and I'm a research affiliate with him articulate this extremely well about the scales
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of time and space and it's just it's really ridiculous to assume we're not we're just it.
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But so I had that sort of awareness and openness from my experience there is the super intent of the
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naval observatory learning about astrophysics. Then fast forward a few more years as a one-star
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animal in charge of all the Navy meteorologists, notionographers. I am overseeing these people who
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were on aircraft carriers and exercises and operations around the world. A lot of them are on
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aircraft carriers and at that point when the Theodore Roosevelt was conducting an exercise off the
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USD's coast and aviators were seeing all these UAP aviators like Ryan Graves. I didn't know about it
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until I get this email on the Navy's secret network and I'm the chief meteorologist of the Navy
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at the time and so my my erografers and meteorologists are forecasting whether on that ship and every
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other ship on the Navy that does air operations and I get this email and the title of it in
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all caps on the secret network, urgent safety of flight issue. And in the body of the email the
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text just merely read that if any of you know what these are tell me ASAP we're having numerous near
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mid-air collisions and we might have to shut down the exercise. I got my attention because this
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is my job safety of flight and attached to the email was the now leaked and unclassified gofast
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video and I you know I mind my socks were knocked off. Of course because I've never seen something
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like this. I wasn't read into the programs and all that and of course I knew immediately that was
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us because we don't do test and development in training ranges. It's when an aircraft carrier goes
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through a training workup to go then deploy to for example the Arabian Gulf you don't we don't
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do test evaluation during those things because it is so compressed the combat commanders want the
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ship to get out there on time the the aviators all have every every pilots got to get certified
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to fly on the carrier okay it is stressful you don't need you don't we don't mess around in the
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US Navy on that kind of thing that's why we have test ranges in different places to do do that
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go yeah you're watching your question. So I just wanted to I suppose underline the point that
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you're making there what you're anticipating is the explanation that many debunkers offer that
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this must be secret US technology that the gofast the tic tac and I forgot my name of the other one
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momentarily but that those three videos that were released eventually by the New York Times by
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Leslie and Ralph Blumenthal that those videos were somehow some secret program that the US was
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suppressing from your understanding of the secret world and how it works the US would never test
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technology like that without giving authorization to say the rear admiral in charge of the fleet
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that you were with and that the theodore Roosevelt was with. Not a chance and when you look at the
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whole body of that those observations remember the pilots talking about a fleet of them and there
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were different observations there was the gimbal the gofast it's not a chance in the world
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and let's go back let's go back to the limits okay with Dave Fraver and Alex Dietrich and that
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again this this is what's even more ridiculous so when I met with arrow okay and this is this has
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to go out there they were trying to throw some discredit on the on the on the reports of the
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Nimitz tic tac incident okay they they want they questioned me you know this might have been
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US tech you know you've heard that narrative out there maybe it was a submarine and you've talked
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to David Fraver and Alex Dietrich who are I consider my friends now who served on aircraft
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carriers like I did and you know they all the explanation of instantaneous acceleration and
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meeting at the cap point that they knew was that that demonstrated a knowledge of what they knew
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and intelligent control this is not US tech okay not a chance we don't test stuff and train any
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ranges and and and clearly the the the the performance characteristics of the technology was nothing
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like we can design and I trust them and they were the observers so when those who are trying to
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throw a wrench in that narrative are they are they're so off the mark and it's actually just a
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clear sign they're they're stretching this denser formation effort so one thing I also want to get
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the detail from you on is that super net message that secret message that came across your email
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it was essentially framed as a safety of flight issue wasn't it because this was essentially the
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commander of that battle fleet wanting to know did anybody know about these objects what the hell
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were they right so the the message I got was from the operations officer who worked for the
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commander who was a four star the operations officer was a two star and he sent it to all the
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subordinate commanders who were one in two stars and senior executives and and yeah and so of
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course we were all loaded this is a big deal what are they the interesting thing I know now what
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happened is that so the next day that email was white from my computer I never saw it again and
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then every meeting I went to at the headquarters which I did to every every month no one talked
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about it and that's so did you you was trying to raise it did you ever sort of say excuse me what
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what about that go fast yeah well right and that was my job safety of flight so I could have and
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maybe should have but but I I knew how things work when it was white from my computer I knew instantly
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ah okay and this is I've seen this in other areas where someone devolved classified information
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on unclassified system and there's a procedure for that where you basically don't talk about that
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yet you remove all the data you do damage control to make sure our adversaries don't get that
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information and yeah so crucially that was what told you that this was known about to the
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US government it's not US tech but they clearly know about it well I also have done a little research
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so I'll tell you this so it was white from my computer I at the time I didn't know what agency had
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authority over that information but I assumed it was under a special access program and it was
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and and what happened is through sources I have that there was a concern that was either well there
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was a question was it adversary tech or was it unknown origin tech and and that's why they pulled
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the email is because they didn't know and if it was adversary tech that would have been a big problem
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and and and so they didn't want it going out on on a secret network when that should have been more
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classified top secret even compartmentalized if it was adversary tech and and so that and that's
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legitimate that now I realize that's fair it's still not good that the safety of flight issue that
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we the commanders the the admils in charge of the all the operations and the people had to basically
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shut up about it and we forced the pilots to mitigate the safety threat on the
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own and that's that's why I've come out is that this is that's wrong we we need to openly acknowledge
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that this is out there and not just in the military but civil that's what Ryan Graves is doing with
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Americans for safe aerospace and I'm on his advisory board is we just got to open up and and have
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be clearied about the safety concerns the security concerns and and and and and the potential
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benefits in terms of research and development so but yeah yeah there's a great moment in your book
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where and I laughed at the irony of this where I think it's Dick Cheney when he was very senior
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official in the administration he was the guy at your graduation ceremony from the Naval Academy
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who literally handed over your graduation certificate and correctly if I'm wrong is that the point
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where you as an officer swear a note to the US Constitution whoa actually Ross I'm glad you got
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that far but so and this is interesting to me because that was at the I had been in for four years
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at the Naval Academy you actually swear your oath to the Constitution on your very first day there
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so your first day is a freshman and it's not even a freshman you you're actually go through a summer
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boot camp and and and then you become a freshman and you enroll or you start classes so your first day
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there the summer boot camp before your your four-year undergraduate experience is where you
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swear your oath to the Constitution I did that in 1985 with my dad he was a reserve captain and I
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just got to do that with my daughter this last July who is now in her first year at the Academy
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now that's where you swear it out and then Dick Cheney though gave me my commission which was
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okay no longer a mission and you're now an officer in the Navy so the reason I wanted to ask you
[0:21:39 - 0:21:44] ▶
that question is because I think this is tied in with why you're taking such a strong leadership
[0:21:44 - 0:21:49] ▶
position on the UAP issue and I want you to explain to our audience when you're an officer or when
[0:21:49 - 0:21:56] ▶
anyone joins the military they swear an oath to the US Constitution and article one of the US
[0:21:56 - 0:22:02] ▶
Constitution insurines a very noble idea that the executive arm of government everything in the
[0:22:02 - 0:22:08] ▶
executive arm of government is accountable to Congress and that's enshrined in your beautiful document
[0:22:08 - 0:22:15] ▶
that document that we don't have an English law or an Australia here or in the UK where I was born
[0:22:15 - 0:22:20] ▶
essentially the the Constitution insurines a very noble idea that there is accountability
[0:22:21 - 0:22:26] ▶
to the Congress and the thing that really strikes me about this whole UAP issue at the heart of it
[0:22:26 - 0:22:34] ▶
is that there's been a failure an obligation of accountability that somewhere along the line a
[0:22:34 - 0:22:41] ▶
decision has been made that Congress and even presidents won't be read into whatever this secret is
[0:22:41 - 0:22:48] ▶
that they're covering up about unidentified anomalous phenomena now I don't want to lead you I don't
[0:22:48 - 0:22:55] ▶
want to take you in that path unless you're comfortable doing it but is your oath to the US
[0:22:55 - 0:23:00] ▶
Constitution intrinsic to why you're taking a leadership role on this issue 100% Ross I
[0:23:00 - 0:23:08] ▶
dedicated my life to this and and I believe in the document and I again I served for nearly 40 years
[0:23:08 - 0:23:15] ▶
under that oath and and this is exactly what's going on is that this UAP cover of a secrecy is
[0:23:15 - 0:23:23] ▶
absolutely disregarding that element of the Constitution is unconstitutional and it gets to the
[0:23:23 - 0:23:30] ▶
extent in some cases where unelected officials are overseeing these programs are being hidden from
[0:23:30 - 0:23:36] ▶
Congress and they're being prevented from their oversight responsibilities and that's just such a
[0:23:36 - 0:23:43] ▶
problem it's it's ridiculous and sane and I and yes exactly is the my life of service and oath
[0:23:43 - 0:23:52] ▶
to the Constitution is absolutely was driving this I mean in addition to a number of the factors like
[0:23:52 - 0:23:58] ▶
intellectual curiosity we're not alone this is the story of the centuries I talked to you about
[0:24:00 - 0:24:05] ▶
last year at why are we not why are more Americans not talking about it and I'll make this point okay
[0:24:05 - 0:24:12] ▶
so a lot of people are wondering what's going to happen is the government is going to keep control
[0:24:12 - 0:24:17] ▶
it's not politically savvy under whoever gets elected in the Americans 2020 2024 election
[0:24:17 - 0:24:24] ▶
to acknowledge we can't control our aerospace and water space and we're being visited by entities
[0:24:25 - 0:24:30] ▶
we don't even know their intent okay that that that's not really politically good for any any
[0:24:30 - 0:24:37] ▶
administration however the more constituents that want to know and want their elected officials
[0:24:37 - 0:24:45] ▶
to disclose the more it will be politically favorable so that's what we need to be doing and so
[0:24:45 - 0:24:53] ▶
I applaud you and your journalistic expertise and efforts to get this out there and and the more we do
[0:24:53 - 0:25:01] ▶
this and and you've looked at this trajectory is almost amazing what's happened in the last decade
[0:25:01 - 0:25:08] ▶
last five years and so let's keep this up the hearing I will be a part of in a few weeks and
[0:25:08 - 0:25:14] ▶
and and every other next step is going to only increase that now what's the question that you'd
[0:25:15 - 0:25:22] ▶
most like Nancy Mace to ask you in the forthcoming oversight hearing what's the what's the thing that
[0:25:22 - 0:25:29] ▶
should most be drawn out of you I can't talk about that right now
[0:25:29 - 0:25:34] ▶
but no no we we're still working that out and and that will all come out and and again I mean
[0:25:43 - 0:25:49] ▶
that's just pretty high profile I got that and I'm taking it very seriously but I when asked
[0:25:49 - 0:25:56] ▶
I absolutely said yes because I think it's the right thing to do and so I'm excited and proud
[0:25:56 - 0:26:01] ▶
to be able to represent that issue in front of the American people you did mention that you've
[0:26:01 - 0:26:06] ▶
had people approaching you and I'm fascinated with some of those stories because I've heard a few
[0:26:06 - 0:26:10] ▶
of these myself I was talking to an old Submariner from the Australian Onslo Submarine fleet who
[0:26:10 - 0:26:16] ▶
really you know and and they were telling me that they detected on sonar an object moving
[0:26:16 - 0:26:21] ▶
unbelievably it close to the speed of sound underwater and I said that can't possibly be right
[0:26:21 - 0:26:28] ▶
have you heard stories like that from Submarinus? I've heard one and interestingly and it's very
[0:26:29 - 0:26:36] ▶
credible and interesting but there's this is important okay I think we all have to make sure we're
[0:26:36 - 0:26:44] ▶
clear-eyed about this and so about observations and witness accounts and I'm not discrediting anybody
[0:26:44 - 0:26:50] ▶
or throwing a lot of sensationalism either way but but here's something I learned from a young
[0:26:50 - 0:26:56] ▶
Submariner that and I was never I've been on a sub twice but for small short duration cruises
[0:26:56 - 0:27:02] ▶
but I didn't know this that the acoustic sensors on submarines can detect aircraft if they're at low
[0:27:03 - 0:27:09] ▶
level low altitude so okay if you got a helicopter they're very noisy by the way going you know
[0:27:09 - 0:27:15] ▶
100 knots well then you know then then oh my gosh you know if you're an untrained sonar operator
[0:27:15 - 0:27:21] ▶
and you see a helicopter going 100 knots you might think that's that's something anomalous well
[0:27:21 - 0:27:27] ▶
not really so it's important when you hear reports to make sure you you fact check and you get
[0:27:27 - 0:27:34] ▶
all the information you can now the the one report I have is clearly not an aircraft because this
[0:27:34 - 0:27:40] ▶
individual Submariner was in the 1980s operating in the North Atlantic at a deeper depth during a
[0:27:40 - 0:27:47] ▶
very significant North Atlantic storm with a zel high ambient noise level so there was nothing
[0:27:47 - 0:27:52] ▶
this contact could be confused with and it had all the signatures of a Russian torpedo because
[0:27:52 - 0:27:57] ▶
it approached the rapid rate and but then slowed down which torpedoes don't do and and and they
[0:27:57 - 0:28:04] ▶
they they thought they hit because of its rapid rate of approach they went to crush depth that was
[0:28:04 - 0:28:11] ▶
their SOP standard operating procedure because they really believed it was the soviet sub but you know
[0:28:11 - 0:28:16] ▶
launching an attack on them which is insane it was an old sub too they were not happy doing that
[0:28:16 - 0:28:21] ▶
and not comfortable and so his story went like that and then of course this object now it stopped
[0:28:21 - 0:28:28] ▶
and it's went around to their stern and followed them and then rapidly accelerated out of the scene
[0:28:28 - 0:28:33] ▶
back in the 80s we know of no technology that could have done that what was that so I wasn't
[0:28:34 - 0:28:40] ▶
it wasn't a helicopter wasn't a not you know a a miss identification with something like that
[0:28:40 - 0:28:46] ▶
this so that was my the anomalous report that I got from the Submariner and I and I can't explain
[0:28:46 - 0:28:52] ▶
either and and I've here I've heard there's others but some marine information and operations
[0:28:52 - 0:28:58] ▶
are so highly classified with non disclosure agreements assigned by everybody on the force that
[0:28:58 - 0:29:04] ▶
they're hard to come out and find but I guess the point that you're making there is a very important
[0:29:04 - 0:29:10] ▶
one because the the risk of misunderstanding the risk of interdiction issues underwater are as acute
[0:29:10 - 0:29:17] ▶
as they are for people like excuse me Ryan Graves and if a 18 if 22 pilots in the air that essentially
[0:29:17 - 0:29:25] ▶
it could only be one mistake we're say an American Submariner Commander or a Russian Submariner
[0:29:25 - 0:29:32] ▶
Commander basically thinks he'll be hell we're being attacked by a Russian submarine or an American
[0:29:32 - 0:29:37] ▶
submarine it could start World War III if we don't know for sure what those objects are and that's
[0:29:37 - 0:29:45] ▶
why it's so important that we explain what these objects are is is that something you agree with
[0:29:45 - 0:29:51] ▶
I do I do I absolutely agree that we need to research these more and get a better understanding for
[0:29:52 - 0:29:57] ▶
them for both the national security applications and as well as just the science and potential
[0:29:57 - 0:30:05] ▶
technology advancements we can make from them so yeah and in fact I've I've begun a correspondence
[0:30:05 - 0:30:11] ▶
with Robert Hastings who's well known for his book UFOs and nukes and I mean yeah that is well
[0:30:11 - 0:30:18] ▶
researched and fairly accepted now that we know this about these interactions and it's interesting
[0:30:18 - 0:30:25] ▶
to me because how what I wouldn't call it a coincidence but what an interesting correlation there is
[0:30:25 - 0:30:33] ▶
what we see so many potential interactions of UAP and nuclear ships so I just gave you a nuclear
[0:30:33 - 0:30:41] ▶
subs example but we have the Nimitz and the theater Roosevelt I personally heard an extraordinary
[0:30:41 - 0:30:47] ▶
story from a chief petty officer on the USS Enterprise or Eisenhower pardon me Eisenhower the ship
[0:30:47 - 0:30:57] ▶
that was recently in the Red Sea combating the U of Houthis this ship on an earlier deployment
[0:30:57 - 0:31:03] ▶
about 20 years ago the senior leadership this petty officer chief petty officer all witnessed a UAP
[0:31:04 - 0:31:13] ▶
in the middle of the strike group basically and and this I know you I think you're looking into this
[0:31:13 - 0:31:18] ▶
Ross so I know the guy you're talking about and I mean yeah basically what he describes is he and
[0:31:18 - 0:31:25] ▶
he's a group of seven people standing on the flybridge near the bridge correct looking down
[0:31:25 - 0:31:31] ▶
they were looking at takeoffs and landings on the aircraft carrier so I've done quite a bit
[0:31:31 - 0:31:37] ▶
and they looked across to I think it was a cruiser shaped cruiser side ship and there was a gigantic
[0:31:37 - 0:31:45] ▶
craft hovering over the top of that ship that all of them saw and I'm still in the process of
[0:31:46 - 0:31:53] ▶
trying to verify that to corroborate this gentleman's account but I'm really pleased he's reached
[0:31:53 - 0:32:00] ▶
out to you because I'd like to see his evidence taken and one of the dilemmas term I'll be honest
[0:32:00 - 0:32:06] ▶
with you is I don't feel safe bringing people like that to arrow to the Pentagon's UAP investigation
[0:32:06 - 0:32:12] ▶
office because under the previous leadership I think it it discredited itself by allowing itself
[0:32:12 - 0:32:18] ▶
to be perceived rightly or wrongly as an organisation that was only interested in disinformation
[0:32:18 - 0:32:24] ▶
so there are many people like that serviceman that you've mentioned who would like to come forward
[0:32:25 - 0:32:32] ▶
with very very credible accounts and the delimeres where do they go right that's right I know a good
[0:32:32 - 0:32:41] ▶
number of people like him that do not trust arrow right now based on their past actions and but
[0:32:41 - 0:32:49] ▶
ultimately I'm going to give the new leadership an opportunity I'm not going to I'm not going to
[0:32:49 - 0:32:55] ▶
characterize where they are now either way I know I have friends who vouch for that individual and
[0:32:55 - 0:33:02] ▶
and so I'm in fact now that my clearance is reinstated I'm looking forward to meeting with them and
[0:33:03 - 0:33:09] ▶
seeing what they might have to say and where they might be going in the future so Tim one of the
[0:33:09 - 0:33:15] ▶
things that I think distinguished David grushes testimony along with Ryan Graves and Dave Fraver was
[0:33:15 - 0:33:21] ▶
that they all gave evidence and insisted on giving evidence under oath they swore an oath would you
[0:33:21 - 0:33:26] ▶
be prepared to do that when you'd give evidence to the congress oh of course I will have to swear
[0:33:26 - 0:33:32] ▶
no that's just the procedure and and I will I mean that's just by my nature I'm going to do that
[0:33:32 - 0:33:38] ▶
and tell the truth and swear to it that's I've never gone out in public as a government official
[0:33:38 - 0:33:43] ▶
intending to do otherwise so yes so you've said previously as well that you would quite like
[0:33:44 - 0:33:49] ▶
to see as well as yourself you'd like to see Lou Elizondo deposed under oath as well as Christopher
[0:33:49 - 0:33:55] ▶
Mellon where in a public hearing they could be asked what they know in a way that allows them to
[0:33:55 - 0:34:01] ▶
speak for the first time publicly about the full truth of what they know within obviously national
[0:34:01 - 0:34:07] ▶
security constraints now to my knowledge Lou and Chris they're not being asked to give evidence
[0:34:07 - 0:34:14] ▶
at this hearing is that a disappointment for you I don't know I still don't know who the final
[0:34:14 - 0:34:20] ▶
list of witnesses will be and I won't characterize that as a disappointment it's first of all
[0:34:20 - 0:34:27] ▶
whatever the committee wants to do they'll do and whatever Chris and Lou or any other witness
[0:34:27 - 0:34:33] ▶
besides to do or not is their decision so I'm not going to characterize that either way I don't
[0:34:33 - 0:34:40] ▶
think it's appropriate by the way Lou's published a terrific book Chris has been this incredible
[0:34:40 - 0:34:47] ▶
advocate and and on the hill and with others in the in the DOD and the Congress so those two
[0:34:47 - 0:34:57] ▶
individuals we can't give enough praise for the courage they've shown and the the work that they've
[0:34:57 - 0:35:04] ▶
undertaken so I I'll just leave it at that that we should be grateful for what they've done for
[0:35:04 - 0:35:10] ▶
our country because a lot of our discussions now and my being here with you today probably wouldn't
[0:35:10 - 0:35:15] ▶
be possible without what they to have done absolutely so you tell a great story about how you met
[0:35:15 - 0:35:23] ▶
astronaut Scott Carpenter in your book and you recall president John F Kennedy's 1962 speech at
[0:35:23 - 0:35:29] ▶
Rice University where he told a crowd of people that American astronauts would land on the moon
[0:35:29 - 0:35:35] ▶
by the end of the decade and you talk with some emotion I think about the fact that Carpenter had
[0:35:35 - 0:35:43] ▶
actually done an underwater survey he'd done an extraordinary piece of research underwater where
[0:35:43 - 0:35:51] ▶
he'd stayed underwater for a huge amount of time and it made you think of the famous line in JFK
[0:35:51 - 0:35:57] ▶
speech that we choose to go to the moon in this decade and do other things not because they are
[0:35:57 - 0:36:03] ▶
easy but because they are hard and you talk in your book about the irony of how Carpenter told you
[0:36:03 - 0:36:10] ▶
that exploring space is a cakewalk compared to doing the same in the ocean and it really underlines
[0:36:10 - 0:36:17] ▶
the point that you're making in your book and you've made in a lot of your public commentary that
[0:36:17 - 0:36:21] ▶
what you've learned as an oceanographer is how unexplored our oceans are and is a large part
[0:36:21 - 0:36:31] ▶
of the UAP mystery you believe in our oceans I do and you know I've written a white paper on this
[0:36:31 - 0:36:39] ▶
from the Seoul Foundation their first white paper this Seoul Foundation's the Stanford based
[0:36:39 - 0:36:45] ▶
think tank that is advocating for more UAP research and policy development and which I
[0:36:45 - 0:36:52] ▶
wholeheartedly support and yeah and then this paper I wrote titled beneath the surface we
[0:36:52 - 0:36:58] ▶
surface we may learn more about UAP by looking under the ocean than otherwise and I state this
[0:36:58 - 0:37:07] ▶
exactly that we've only mapped about 25% of the ocean sea floor on this planet and we've not
[0:37:07 - 0:37:13] ▶
even explored 5% maybe we're not 10% between 5 and 10 of the ocean volume with a remotely operated
[0:37:13 - 0:37:20] ▶
vehicle which is extraordinary that we don't even know that much about our own ocean and I knew
[0:37:20 - 0:37:25] ▶
this from my job at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and then our program to
[0:37:25 - 0:37:31] ▶
explore the ocean was one of my favorite because we were discovering new species every year
[0:37:31 - 0:37:36] ▶
and new corals new fish we found a new type of killer whale in Antarctica in 2020 I mean we're
[0:37:37 - 0:37:44] ▶
not talking about I've been underlined this there's a great story you tell in your book where one of
[0:37:44 - 0:37:48] ▶
the jobs you had was to do the sunnings in the Persian Gulf when the Iraq war was happening
[0:37:48 - 0:37:54] ▶
and the maps that you were relying on to guide vessels safely in and around the Persian Gulf
[0:37:54 - 0:38:01] ▶
some of them were Admiralty UK maps from the 19th century 1898 I think was one of them
[0:38:01 - 0:38:09] ▶
and the fact that the American military is launching a war in the Middle East relying on maps
[0:38:09 - 0:38:15] ▶
from the British army from over a hundred years previously is just extraordinary.
[0:38:15 - 0:38:19] ▶
No it was it was and exactly in fact the Gulf War in 1990 our aircraft carriers had this very
[0:38:20 - 0:38:31] ▶
small area to operate because the charts most of the navigational information that the
[0:38:31 - 0:38:36] ▶
infantry was unknown like you said it was in his 19th century so and when you're an aircraft
[0:38:36 - 0:38:41] ▶
carrier because I've driven one I was an officer a deck officer on the US's Kitty Hawk during
[0:38:41 - 0:38:46] ▶
two combat deployments in the Arabian Gulf that you have to have a lot of sea room because
[0:38:46 - 0:38:52] ▶
aircraft need lift and to get lift you have to go fast that means 35 knots and you don't really
[0:38:52 - 0:38:58] ▶
slow down fast when you're a thousand foot worship so or I'm 100,000 tons so that we needed a lot
[0:38:58 - 0:39:05] ▶
of sea room we needed good maps or charts and so what I did for what it's worth about you know
[0:39:05 - 0:39:11] ▶
and on this topic of the Unknown Ocean learning more about UAP we discover the ocean more
[0:39:11 - 0:39:15] ▶
is I mapped a lot of the Persian Gulf in my first operational sea tour with hydrographic sonar
[0:39:16 - 0:39:21] ▶
and a no-strographic ship and then I came back later during the second Gulf War in 2003
[0:39:21 - 0:39:28] ▶
and navigated off the charts I made personally so that was a nice full circle but you're right the
[0:39:28 - 0:39:34] ▶
ocean's so unknown and you and we know we're seeing a lot a fair amount of UAP activity it's been
[0:39:34 - 0:39:43] ▶
reported Richard Dolan has a book coming out on all the UAP activity in and under the ocean that
[0:39:43 - 0:39:49] ▶
has been recorded over time and it's about 600 cases over the last few centuries very you know
[0:39:49 - 0:39:55] ▶
very commend him of this which is really worth getting and I've seen the advanced copy of that
[0:39:55 - 0:40:01] ▶
and it's it's it's remarkable with that in mind knowing how big the ocean is and how opaque it is
[0:40:01 - 0:40:08] ▶
to our observational systems there might be a lot more out there in fact Ross I I just went to
[0:40:08 - 0:40:15] ▶
the National Academies and my member of their Ocean Studies Board and I gave them a presentation
[0:40:15 - 0:40:19] ▶
last week on this and I I made the statement hey these are phenomena that we're seeing in our ocean
[0:40:19 - 0:40:27] ▶
you're the authoritative ocean science body in the US and if you really want to know what's going
[0:40:27 - 0:40:33] ▶
on in the ocean we should be looking at this and they took that on board I mean they received it
[0:40:33 - 0:40:39] ▶
prospectfully I think it's so not traditional that in normal ocean average ocean
[0:40:39 - 0:40:45] ▶
ographers are going to have a hard time with that but like we talked about in this idea of thought
[0:40:45 - 0:40:50] ▶
leadership I think it needs to get out there and I'm going to have to make this statement often to
[0:40:50 - 0:40:55] ▶
get it more accepted over time so Tim can I get a clear statement from you about what your
[0:40:55 - 0:41:02] ▶
beliefs the wrong word because that's almost a religious faith thing what what do you know to be
[0:41:04 - 0:41:09] ▶
the case what what what is your conclusion about the notion of there being a non-human intelligence
[0:41:09 - 0:41:16] ▶
engaging with this planet right so I have no personal interaction with any entities like that
[0:41:16 - 0:41:22] ▶
never seen or experienced a UAP you know there's a witness firsthand however
[0:41:23 - 0:41:28] ▶
one I had this experience with Navy data on a secret network which has come out to be validated
[0:41:29 - 0:41:36] ▶
in the New York Times and elsewhere and so you have that and then of course now you and I are
[0:41:36 - 0:41:41] ▶
both in a network of people they're very credible that we have name names already and I'm personally
[0:41:41 - 0:41:46] ▶
friends with and I know there are pedigrees better than the average person in the public because
[0:41:46 - 0:41:52] ▶
I worked in the agencies they've worked at David Grush I had I had officers working in the National
[0:41:52 - 0:41:57] ▶
Geospatial Intelligence Agency under me I had a you have a Brian Graves working on the US
[0:41:57 - 0:42:03] ▶
of St. Roosevelt I had a ton of sailors on aircraft pairs I was on an aircraft pair you at you
[0:42:03 - 0:42:08] ▶
have David Fraver I had many people in squadron supporting them with weather they're all the real
[0:42:08 - 0:42:13] ▶
deal Jay Stratton I mean he I worked with the Office of Naval Intelligence and know the last five
[0:42:13 - 0:42:19] ▶
or so commanders of the Office of Naval Intelligence on and on and so all these people who were coming
[0:42:19 - 0:42:26] ▶
out Carl Nell I know the agencies they come from and I totally respect their credibility when they
[0:42:26 - 0:42:35] ▶
say the statements I was I have access to the knowledge of the program of the information
[0:42:35 - 0:42:41] ▶
and so and I know how the government works for 40 years so when these people do it I totally
[0:42:42 - 0:42:47] ▶
trust it so yeah I know a lot of people say hey like one of these guys is well I won't name names but
[0:42:47 - 0:42:55] ▶
okay you've seen the craft have you seen the bodies we know I'm not but I know enough about how things
[0:42:55 - 0:43:01] ▶
work and I have many other people I will not name that have had access to the programs and all of
[0:43:01 - 0:43:07] ▶
that makes me firmly believe what's going on what we're covering up and and I'm coming out only
[0:43:07 - 0:43:14] ▶
because where I my position as an authority PhD former agency head under secretary someone like
[0:43:14 - 0:43:22] ▶
people like me have to come out and give these individuals top cover for the courage they're showing
[0:43:22 - 0:43:28] ▶
in speaking up and seeking to overturn this government cover up you tell an amazing story in your
[0:43:28 - 0:43:37] ▶
book Tim about your your wife Karen and the vilification that she suffered as a woman serving in
[0:43:37 - 0:43:44] ▶
the US Navy and it struck me there's parallels between her story and what she endured and what
[0:43:44 - 0:43:52] ▶
witnesses to the whole UAP subject have to endure the stigmatizing the ridicule the basically the
[0:43:52 - 0:43:58] ▶
vilification can you tell me a little bit about what happened to Karen and can I also say I
[0:43:58 - 0:44:03] ▶
really admire her courage in being willing to allow you to talk about it in your book well this
[0:44:03 - 0:44:11] ▶
is a hundred percent testament to her courage because it's not easy for people who were subject
[0:44:11 - 0:44:15] ▶
bisexual harassment to talk about it and they're made to feel like it was their fault and and this
[0:44:15 - 0:44:22] ▶
this happened in the very early 90s my wife was a navy diver which is very impressive but at the time
[0:44:22 - 0:44:28] ▶
navy ships were we're just turning allowing women on board and navy combatants didn't allow
[0:44:28 - 0:44:35] ▶
women so it was service ships like the salvage ship she was on and her CO is one of these people
[0:44:35 - 0:44:40] ▶
who just couldn't accept women on ships and and so she dealt with a really difficult situation
[0:44:40 - 0:44:47] ▶
and drove and got her to leave the navy got her CO court marshal for his bad horrible harassment and
[0:44:47 - 0:44:52] ▶
I think I think I think just just to underline her badly she was treated and my right in saying she
[0:44:53 - 0:44:59] ▶
was fired by the CO on the tannoy on the speaker system in the ship he made this dramatic announcement
[0:44:59 - 0:45:06] ▶
on the vessel that she'd been was it fired yeah that's right and she has really a heart I
[0:45:06 - 0:45:13] ▶
you know I applaud her for allowing me to share that story because she feels so terrible about this it
[0:45:13 - 0:45:18] ▶
was a dark time in her life and but again we let the point exactly right it was so tough for her
[0:45:18 - 0:45:25] ▶
but she's come out because we know that if we can tell her story it'll give others courage not
[0:45:25 - 0:45:30] ▶
again the sexual harassment combating that which I've been a giant advocate to to eliminate
[0:45:31 - 0:45:38] ▶
in everywhere I've been in government but at the same time it's you're right it's it's exactly
[0:45:38 - 0:45:43] ▶
what's going on with experienced serves and witnesses that they're being they're they're being
[0:45:43 - 0:45:48] ▶
discredited and vilified and yeah and it's it's gosh human behavior can be so vital at times
[0:45:48 - 0:45:55] ▶
and and so I thank you for highlighting the importance of embracing and allowing people to come
[0:45:55 - 0:46:01] ▶
forward and show courage and that next exactly what I'm doing here why am I on your show
[0:46:01 - 0:46:06] ▶
so Tim can I be a devil's advocate for a moment let's assume the best of motives for the people
[0:46:06 - 0:46:14] ▶
who have improperly I think concealed this from congress and kept it from some of the presidents
[0:46:14 - 0:46:19] ▶
that have served as commander in chief let's assume for a moment that these people are well
[0:46:19 - 0:46:24] ▶
motivated and that albeit they're possibly doing this illegally and in some cases criminally
[0:46:24 - 0:46:30] ▶
they're doing it for what they regard as the best of motives you're a person who's
[0:46:30 - 0:46:34] ▶
schooled and steeped in in the need for secrecy there's very good reasons for why we have
[0:46:34 - 0:46:40] ▶
special access programs and national security secrets at the heart of this do you think the public
[0:46:40 - 0:46:47] ▶
can be told if it's true that there is a non-human intelligence engaging with this planet
[0:46:48 - 0:46:54] ▶
and we wouldn't run the risk of jeopardizing the technologies and the if you like the breakthroughs
[0:46:55 - 0:47:02] ▶
that we might have developed from that understanding that we are trying to still keep secret from our
[0:47:02 - 0:47:07] ▶
adversaries I do and I do accept that they're probably individuals in the programs and their
[0:47:07 - 0:47:14] ▶
their intent is maybe well meaning that and I mean this was our culture is secrecy and classification
[0:47:14 - 0:47:21] ▶
to protect our national security so I get that but I think Carl Nell who was on the UAP task force
[0:47:22 - 0:47:29] ▶
and the Army representative eloquent speaker at the last assault conference and the previous sole
[0:47:29 - 0:47:35] ▶
foundation symposium he he articulated superbly and that is the government does not have an
[0:47:35 - 0:47:42] ▶
exclusive right on the nature of reality and we're a government by the people and for the people
[0:47:42 - 0:47:48] ▶
and the people should know about the nature of reality and and and this is this is important as
[0:47:48 - 0:47:53] ▶
he says for the pursuit of happiness which I totally agree with I mean I really just I that's
[0:47:53 - 0:48:00] ▶
been a really neat thing about this journey is I've been able to work with such superior minds
[0:48:00 - 0:48:05] ▶
and professionals like Carl and you and so I that's just a statement I stand behind
[0:48:05 - 0:48:12] ▶
well that's very kind of you sir I mean I have to admit there's a lot of people who are going to be
[0:48:13 - 0:48:17] ▶
watching your congressional appearance who are on the inside still I mean I'm talking to people
[0:48:17 - 0:48:23] ▶
who are inside the legacy program who are waiting for a sign that Congress is genuinely serious
[0:48:23 - 0:48:31] ▶
about engaging with this issue and there's been a lot of flip flopping you know you get the the
[0:48:31 - 0:48:37] ▶
knocking back of the Schubert amendment in December 2023 which was a huge setback I think I
[0:48:37 - 0:48:42] ▶
I rather suspect that if the Schubert amendment had been passed last year
[0:48:42 - 0:48:46] ▶
President Biden might very well have been saying something different this year but we've had nothing
[0:48:47 - 0:48:52] ▶
from Kamala Harris we've had nothing from President Biden on the UAP subject is it your hope that
[0:48:52 - 0:48:59] ▶
whatever happens in the coming election whoever is president might be more willing to be more
[0:48:59 - 0:49:05] ▶
open with the public yes Ross that's a great question I'm I'm taking a longer view on this because
[0:49:05 - 0:49:13] ▶
there was just the current geo-political situation is really so is dire to be honest with you that
[0:49:13 - 0:49:23] ▶
it's going to be hard to make UAP rise that level even though I would warrant that I think
[0:49:23 - 0:49:29] ▶
what's really going on is even more serious than what's happening with Ukraine Russia North
[0:49:29 - 0:49:34] ▶
Korea and Corona but Iran but um yeah so but ultimately in terms of just a government policy
[0:49:34 - 0:49:42] ▶
decision or change I'm not sure it's going to happen soon so I don't want to pin my hopes on some
[0:49:43 - 0:49:49] ▶
immediate or near-term reversal again because I know how administrations work and this is a I think
[0:49:49 - 0:49:56] ▶
is just going to take a change in the electorate it's going to take more constituents wanting the
[0:49:56 - 0:50:01] ▶
government to know we've come a long way and I think that's very encouraging I mean Avi Loeb I think
[0:50:01 - 0:50:09] ▶
cited this and I can't vouch for the brassy of it but I think recently he said something that
[0:50:09 - 0:50:14] ▶
more people believe that there might be extra trust your life than than those who believe in
[0:50:14 - 0:50:19] ▶
God or religion I don't know but there's a there's there's a new understanding and openness
[0:50:20 - 0:50:26] ▶
and and it's here's something I think is really neat one of the sole foundations
[0:50:27 - 0:50:31] ▶
advisors is a woman named EO Whiteley you know an aviation psychologist and works on space
[0:50:32 - 0:50:39] ▶
also psychology and really brilliant woman and I loved her framing of this situation right now
[0:50:40 - 0:50:46] ▶
she said and she compared the current uh well actually it was Diana Pasolka who who talked about
[0:50:46 - 0:50:53] ▶
EO's observation and she put it in the context of UAP and it was this that uh that in aviation
[0:50:53 - 0:51:00] ▶
safety it took a generational shift about a professional generation of 25 years to go from
[0:51:00 - 0:51:07] ▶
an attitude about aviators in the cockpit to not want to report safety concerns because they
[0:51:08 - 0:51:13] ▶
were macho or thought it would reflect it would reflect poorly on the professional opportunities in
[0:51:13 - 0:51:19] ▶
the future to become religiously reporting about cockpit safety to ensure safety of flight
[0:51:19 - 0:51:28] ▶
and and that's the standard now and I think we're seeing young people show interest I have them
[0:51:28 - 0:51:33] ▶
coming to me in good numbers I want to study UAP and I want is there a master's degree program out
[0:51:33 - 0:51:39] ▶
there and I want to get involved I mean I have so many people just come to me because they
[0:51:40 - 0:51:44] ▶
they want to contribute and and these are professionals in every walk of life okay we're not talking
[0:51:44 - 0:51:50] ▶
about fringe nutcases we're talking about really established people some in the government some
[0:51:50 - 0:51:56] ▶
in industry and and they're all coming to me in various forms saying I cannot what can I do and so
[0:51:56 - 0:52:03] ▶
that generational shift maybe in a decade or two is going to be where our elected officials are
[0:52:03 - 0:52:11] ▶
have no choice they're going to have to be open about what is happening it's just some degree
[0:52:11 - 0:52:17] ▶
it must have occurred to you Tim throughout your career I mean obviously the coming to the UAP
[0:52:17 - 0:52:23] ▶
issue happened to you quite late in your career as a rear-abroad but there must have been people
[0:52:23 - 0:52:29] ▶
throughout your career who were aware of the secrets within the legacy program that still
[0:52:29 - 0:52:35] ▶
being concealed and one of the things I find delicious in your book is that you do describe
[0:52:35 - 0:52:41] ▶
meeting people like General John Kelly Admiral Bill McRaven who was the commander of the
[0:52:41 - 0:52:46] ▶
seal team that took out Ben Laden have you ever regretted along the way not having the opportunity
[0:52:46 - 0:52:53] ▶
to learn about the UAP subject earlier and to have a quiet chat with people like that and say hey
[0:52:53 - 0:52:57] ▶
listen what do you know about this subject did you ever ask that question to senior commanders and
[0:52:57 - 0:53:03] ▶
get get interesting I was in tracking it at a professional level I'd always been interested but
[0:53:03 - 0:53:10] ▶
no and so and funny and it was only after I left the government I actually did sit down with a
[0:53:11 - 0:53:16] ▶
former Office of Naval Intelligence Commander and we were talking about some professional things
[0:53:16 - 0:53:21] ▶
and then I asked him a off the record what do you think and he goes we still don't know what these
[0:53:21 - 0:53:28] ▶
are and that's that is the state of play right now and you've heard people like former DNI
[0:53:28 - 0:53:34] ▶
clapper say this and others April Haynes the current DNI so they've all gone on the record at some
[0:53:34 - 0:53:40] ▶
point and said we don't know and that's that's the that's the state of understanding I understand
[0:53:40 - 0:53:44] ▶
now which is a nice way to wrap this up because okay we don't know the nature reality we don't even
[0:53:44 - 0:53:51] ▶
know the nature what's going on our airspace and water space wouldn't an open research program into
[0:53:51 - 0:53:57] ▶
this be valid and important and useful I think the answer is yes so more universities that get into
[0:53:57 - 0:54:03] ▶
this the more government funding science agencies like my former one know it to explore this that's
[0:54:03 - 0:54:10] ▶
what I like to see so Tim I can't finish this interview without pointing out the illustrious family
[0:54:10 - 0:54:16] ▶
name that you belong to and the fact that it has a very interesting connection to Lockheed Martin
[0:54:16 - 0:54:21] ▶
and you've explained that you're adopted and you tell a beautiful story in the book about how you
[0:54:22 - 0:54:26] ▶
met your birth mum but the adoptive parents the Gallaudet's that you became a part of their family
[0:54:26 - 0:54:34] ▶
they were originally French one of them fought in the Battle of Trenton in 1776 and became the
[0:54:34 - 0:54:41] ▶
personal secretary to George Washington you had an uncle who was the engraver of the first US
[0:54:41 - 0:54:47] ▶
coin the 1776 continental dollar and then working through the family one of the successes in the
[0:54:47 - 0:54:54] ▶
family Edson Gallaudet a contemporary of the Wright brothers no less designed the fastest
[0:54:54 - 0:55:01] ▶
aircraft in the world at the time called the A1 Gallaudet bullet and he built aircraft for the
[0:55:01 - 0:55:07] ▶
Navy and the Army through the 20s and this is just too good not to mention and pass it is company
[0:55:07 - 0:55:14] ▶
later merged with others to eventually become general dynamics and later drum roll Lockheed Martin
[0:55:14 - 0:55:22] ▶
Tim you you could have been the charge of Lockheed Martin mate you you could have been one of the
[0:55:23 - 0:55:28] ▶
gatekeepers holding this secret saying there's no way people this story
[0:55:28 - 0:55:32] ▶
yeah it's too close to proud family history oh it's it's interesting yeah yeah and I'm
[0:55:33 - 0:55:43] ▶
funny about that because we believe there might be some they might possess some information or
[0:55:43 - 0:55:50] ▶
materials and that's that's still coming out there but yeah who knows maybe I would have
[0:55:50 - 0:55:56] ▶
a chance to oversee some of this if I stayed with the business well I have every confidence Tim
[0:55:56 - 0:56:01] ▶
you would have hated your oath as an officer and made sure that the Congress and the president
[0:56:01 - 0:56:06] ▶
were fully informed as your constitution requires so I thank you so much for joining reality check
[0:56:06 - 0:56:13] ▶
again and I wish you the very best on behalf of no data constituency of people watching this
[0:56:13 - 0:56:19] ▶
who want your evidence before the congressional committee to be fulsome and informative so God
[0:56:19 - 0:56:25] ▶
speed good luck and congratulations on your on your openness and your candor thank you so much
[0:56:25 - 0:56:32] ▶
for us it's been great to be with you thank you thanks for watching go to join nn.com to find
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