Transcript: Dr. James Lacatski - This Is Ufo Disclosure, As Far As It Can Go

this is weaponized i'm george knapp here in las vegas joined by my friend and colleague jeremy

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corbell jeremy how's it going pretty good man how you doing good you've been on the road a little

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bit huh yeah i tried to get off the road but um we got some big things coming up this uh this year

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we do including this particular episode so you know as as we know all too well the the ufo public

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constantly demands a full disclosure we want to know everything we want to know it now what does

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the government know about ufos we won't settle for anything less where's the bodies where's the

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craft and there are some members of congress that say they want the same thing and you know expectations

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are that sort of disclosure is nigh uh president trump has said he's going to release the files

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my personal expectations are pretty low as usual you're the optimist of the group you know the

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biggest stash of unreleased files as far as we know is somewhere in the bowels of the dia the defense

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intelligence agency information compiled from a program known as osap uh under dia the man who

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created and designed and directed that program the largest known ufo investigation ever funded by the

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u.s government is james lakatsky and it's now been eight years since i first met him and got a download

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from him about osap it's now 16 years since that effort ended and other than some preliminary reports

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the dirs had been made public by me and some other people not one page of the tens of thousands of pages

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created by the osap investigation not one page has been made public if you ask dia they say they can't find

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them you can file all the foil requests you want they've utterly failed so the only things we know

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about osap what it investigated what it found have come from jim lakatsky and colin kelleher in a series

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of books and lakatsky sifted through the official files he wrote about them along with dr kelleher and me

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with some minor uh contributions and um you know the fourth and final book about all sap is now out

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it's called future visions by dr lakatsky took a long time for him to get permission from various

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government agencies through the dopser process but he's revealed as much as he's been allowed to reveal

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the work product of this largest ufo program in history and it'll never be enough i think for

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the public for some of the ufo public but as we know from interacting with him on this program

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um it's likely it could be the closest we ever get to actual disclosure what the government knows at

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least in the osap program and then you know jeremy as as you know he doesn't grant many interview

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requests this will be our third bite of the apple uh but i think uh no one other than perhaps connor

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teller knows as much about that program that jim lakatsky and he's sharing with the public the most

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information that can be released uh he fought a lot of battles to get the permission to do it

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uh you know people are always demanding actual data these books are packed with evidence and data

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effects on humans bizarre phenomena um you know there's never been a story quite like this and

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maybe never will be a program like this again so being able to speak with him and to read these books

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including this latest one it's like a glimpse behind the curtain you and he have had some

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very spirited conversations on this episode on these episodes right yes yeah so i mean look um

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he has bottom line dr lakatsky has done more for modern day disclosure than any other human being

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that i know of he ran a ufo program and literally is printing books that are authorized to tell exactly

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what happened exactly how it is but people have to be readers they have to get in there and they have

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to read them he's taken a lot of heat for not directly answering questions so that's where we

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get into the spirited debates and i know he can't go further than certain things and i'm not pressing

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for national security questions answers i'm not pressing for him to break his oath i want to see where

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that boundary is because it ends up being that the boundary is usually in a really interesting place

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it's what he's not allowed to say which is what we need to learn we can read his book but then we

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got to learn where is that boundary and why and so um again dr lakatsky has done more for modern day

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disclosure than i think anybody has if people read his books then certainly that is true um but there

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is a boundary and i respect that but i need to know where that is with him what is it he's not allowed

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to say because that's the question that we need to answer well we know one place where there's a

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boundary because we've explored it before so maybe third time's the charm so let's jump into it dr jim

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lakatsky it's great to have you back on weaponized can't thank you enough for your time i was reviewing

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the conversations that we've had on this program and the conversations that you and i have had over the

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years not uh recorded and there's a there's a big gap in that and that is about you you know we really

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haven't got into you and i asked this question in the context of claims that have been made about

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our books your books and about the ufo topic in general that everyone involved in this at an official

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capacity everyone involved in osap atip uaptf are all part of a cult and you've been pushing your

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religion in order to influence congress and the pentagon and national policy so i want to ask

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uh about you what your degrees were in how you ended up at dia and what you did for dia before you

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jumped into this subject well uh as to the degrees they're all in nuclear engineering

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uh that enabled me to gain employment first at a utility and then at knolls atomic power a doe facility

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in new york then i transitioned into basically a career of threat analysis as a contractor for dia and

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then working at dia so most of my time has obviously been spent working at dia now this was a minor blurb

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in the first book skinwalkers at the pentagon and there was so much new stuff in there people probably

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didn't even see this point but this all started when i was working i distinctly remember working with

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this huge cathode ray tube monitor in my house brand new but still a huge machine and i'm looking at it

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and i said wait a minute there's a project a dia and a and an associated to my particular group uh

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uh alternate group i i didn't know they were they were working on such odd things and then skinwalker

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ranch came up literally and this was all unclassified obviously and uh that initiated everything

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um basically i started communicating with those folks who in my opinion had a great job

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a lot of them just involved themselves with foreign travel to technical conferences well as a result of

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having all that knowledge they were working under contract for i believe it was the national academy

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of sciences for an unclassified program and somehow skinwalker ranch came up short discussion and that

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started started at all i wrote a letter to uh with my managers multiple managers approval to request to

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visit skinwalker ranch i wanted to hear the real details what is really going on and that's what dia was

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interested in now the study group it didn't have time to do that so basically they just fell off the

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plate i had a couple queries uh after they provided me with the correct addresses and phone numbers as to

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are you doing anything and of course by that time the answer became no and so everything was under

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undercover in a sense even from within my own group i just wanted to keep things controlled and you've

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seen that up to this day and the four books they're a controlled disclosure of the information that we

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wanted to put for with pentagon approval the the way it's been described to me by your colleague and

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friend jay stratton is you two guys were both at dia at the same time with different sort of specialties

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and interest areas and they kept these ufo cases and incidents over sensitive installations would pop up now

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and then and eventually you guys compared notes and and we know what the the rest of the history is is

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that sort of correct is how you remember it well it is in a very broad terms uh we had uh he was part of

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what we call the air team he worked on air threats and he was i don't know if he was on assignment to dia

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from o and i or if he was a dia uh uh employee at the time but we also had other members within those

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teams he was head of that group i was head of the missile threat enemy missile threat to the united states

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and we would see these things in fact i even overheard a conversation one day

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of wow you know skinwalker ranch that is the wildest place i've ever heard of and little did they know

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you know what was going on a few cubicles away from them but we had to keep that under wraps it's not

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that the management didn't know what was going on it wasn't going sideways that's your greatest danger

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there your job is to look for threats and assess threats and um and and at some point you thought

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well maybe this is a threat that's why it's worth looking into it's not your religion you're not part

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of ufo cult uh and none of us were i don't i don't understand where well a lot of things materialize on

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the internet and and and i have learned over the years there's no use in fighting back against them

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because they spread faster than you could ever keep up but the false information i mean one of the

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best was the battle between bigelow's guards with automatic weapons and and aliens with lasers that

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really caught traction and i said where did this come from but you know there's some humorous things

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in there too of course over the years you had no religious type beliefs about ufos aliens

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any of that going into this absolutely not in fact i was a complete nuts and bolts person i i i didn't

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see the relationship at first and then i saw the relationship that ufos were under the paranormal

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umbrella not vice versa or anything like that or totally dissociated that disturbs me when i read

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about people who don't believe in the connection because if if anything that's what we proved

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because nothing that we had heard about skinwalker ranch originally was false at all we yeah we

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couldn't repeat things but new cases as you know kept popping up all the time jeremy take it away

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yeah i just wanted to know kind of a little bit more about your background because you don't talk about

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it a lot but if you do some deep research you know you can kind of see that you you worked on like

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academically fusion research you know power and then utility in the utility sector kind of nuclear

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engineering is that correct yes i was uh uh in the utility basically i was employed for doing startup

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monitoring and calculations of a new reactor it it had been operating and was and so what i was doing was refueling

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uh so but that only lasted six seven months because all that time i've talked let's look back in the old

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days of security clearance processing uh i was going they did it in steps i went after a confidential

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clearance i believe it was called an l clearance in dole and then uh once i was employed there i went after the

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queue clearance and so in that regard i was working on naval reactors specifically shielding um of new

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attack submarines and then the opportunity my wife's a nuclear engineer too and the area we were living in

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schenectady did not have a lot of jobs other than at knoll's atomic power plant well to open it up we

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started to apply extensively to washington she got a job as a nasa contractor and uh i found uh uh my

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my calling at the at a contractor that supported countermeasures and threat to the missile defense

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system and that's where it took off yeah well i just think it's interesting when i go back and really

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find out where you were working and what you were doing it looked like from the university of tennessee

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nuclear engineering you did a master's thesis called plasma engineering analysis of small tors torsation

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torsatron to reactor torsatron reactor and um when you were there also so you focused on the plasma

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physics and uh reactor engine engineering feasibility is what i read and then for a compact torsation design

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tied to oak ridge's advanced torsation design is that correct well that's what they called it yes that's

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all correct that's all everything that's out there is correct what i have not put out is details further

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on because i had the clearance at the time and i was doing classified work both with doe and dod and

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and uh we can't talk about that at all because and i can tell you because it was a very advanced weapon

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system that i was working on very advanced wow and it is back then it was approved for research by dod

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multiple levels even to the highest but that's not buildable it was okay it's visible with the technology

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of the time in the uh 80s and 90s right so it might be now but but you're i just want to make sure so

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you think about it still classified it okay it is buildable now it is buildable now so yeah so you

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were embedded in oak ridge's fusion program ecosystem kind of back in the in the early 80s yes

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yeah i think that's interesting you don't talk about that but you've kind of admitted now that part of

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that work was a theoretical uh physics aspect of a weapon system that is classified later on for okay

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doctor of engineering so i can't talk about that but at oak ridge everything was unclassified now did

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the torsatron concept ever come about it totally successfully well mine were theoretical calculations

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and the theory ultimately did not hold up it was for startup of a fusion reactor at extremely low power

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levels and not in other words you wouldn't have to put much money uh energy in in order to go to the

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ignition state so george i just want to make sure um you know we kind of know who we're talking with so

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here's a man who's you know highly trained in in energy and uh turns out weaponry and in theoretical

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weaponry he's kind of looking far ahead which leads us to kind of you know maybe a little bit more how

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i know him which is through his defense intelligence work yeah yeah and that's why i was i felt in you

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know quite comfortable handling all of the 38 special studies that we we did because i understood them all

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right and i i had to understand him i was the editor because we got 38 different styles coming in

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and that we had to convert to one so there was uh there was an effort i had to read every line and make

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the corrections your latest book the last uh book that you intend to write about osap you've told me

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that taken together they in essence uh are the equivalent of disclosure am i overstating it no i believe

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that that's uh was our intent now as to having four books we thought one would suffice then it apparently

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had three more were needed and actually what you said as a putting a period on all of this is a final

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no i mentioned last time on your program the foundation of kona blue actually now your readers can

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do this i think both of you are doing it but if you go through all four of the books you can see the

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structure that we first put in skinwalkers in the pentagon as a future program you can see that matches up

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almost exactly with the program that uh dhs and dod release on what kona blue was to be

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everything they released on kona blue was correct all i'm saying is it was incomplete

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or omission correct there you know in fact we were very diligent in doing our threat analysis because we

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had access to the highest levels of threat intelligence but you had to release it at the secret level so

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everyone could use it we were very very specific and very clear that none of us were to just make up

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story out of thin air at the secret level it had to be supported by the higher level intelligence it was

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the truth and we did the same thing throughout aussap uh when it was untrue that it was an unclassified

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program it was com it was highly classified but everything you got out here and checked by the

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pentagon is unclassified but the story's in there i can't emphasize that anymore you're going through it

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bit by bit uh one thing that does upset me is when i see things on the internet of people diligently

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going through the books diligently and they're going in the wrong direction and i can't say anything

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it's it's just the way it is they're filling in the the blanks with things that aren't true so george i

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you know the deepest move of this book as i'm reading through it it's not like one sensational claim

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uh dr lakatsky you're like building an institutional argument kind of that the u.s government ran a serious

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medically aware broad spectrum technically framed program that found the phenomenon to be stranger

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more interactive and more consequential than like the simple aircraft identification problem we used to

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call ufos is that fair to say that you know you followed the data into the taboo that's correct uh

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right from the beginning and we've if people thought that the uh request for proposal was

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obscure what was meant to be but is there an untrue statement in there no that's what we wanted

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uh and but we were very specific of going with the small contractors because we knew that with a small

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contractor like uh bigelow aerospace uh and an even smaller one bass their specialized study for this

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for this contract they could form it from the ground up we weren't inheriting a structure from a big

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aerospace space company we were sure they had the personnel but the thing is is were they going to go

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down the direction that dia wanted and the answer is of course no so everything is above board we did

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the proper contracting uh we we just did everything and we're all insistent on that and so senator reed

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and in a way etc uh and they monitored the contract closely to see that dia did not veer off we weren't we

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were but that's why also we weren't telling everybody and their brother what we were doing we were keeping

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it low-key we were doing it in the correct place and we knew a lot was being produced it just we didn't

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plan to release it but i do remember the meeting in 2016 it was after i retired 2017 with senator reed

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out in las vegas where i came i just made the statement and you were there george i made the

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statement i'm gonna have to write a book now did i realize it was i look at the stack over here and

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and i'm gonna see another book but this book may or may not be necessary it's i think it is because

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i'd like to see if the public comes to the same structure for kona blue as as we did based upon an

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examination over a year of the data in these four books and who feel that certain portions of the work

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that are done in here either doesn't need to be done again or needs to be done by private organizations

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and not necessarily involve government or government funds but some areas need a lot more involvement

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by the government and and funding either uh from the government or external at this point it's it's it's

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it's i always think back it's like a a phd thesis a a dissertation could be like the wild west you just

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you go off on something new and innovative but you're moving ahead uh that's what needs to be

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done now with kona blue we need to move ahead we're not collecting information on lights in the sky

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isn't going to cut it anymore and possibly even not close landings but you know we're going to have to

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involve ourselves in some real detail here and acquire that um medical cases were kind of limited

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right there but not totally uh we know there's an uh a medical impact in fact it's quite significant

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and i'm surprised we were able to release uh legally what we we put in pentagon so that the dia is aware

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the pentagon the the dia itself is very aware now because of your work that there are close contact

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to non-humans is that correct well from this study we are from this study we are you know not everything

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is in here but everything is in here it's just that how you read this is very important and it was

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done that way so we could release it how do you read it there's some big stories in here that no one

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is pursuing they're in the four books well how do you read it just like you're doing you read and

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you're and but you have to think too and you're doing it you're i have no problem but i'm not sure a

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lot do a lot think they can discuss these books on the on the internet and they're getting the gist of it all

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no way are you the four books again i mean it seems like it's the equivalent disclosure given that

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these cases that are in there and the specifics and the incidents that happened were investigated by

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official governmentally authorized and finance program they're real they really did happen things

[0:25:16 - 0:25:21] ▶

did happen uh what you don't do in the books is sort of draw conclusions um hey these are aliens these

[0:25:21 - 0:25:28] ▶

are et's these are not us um do you have conclusions from before or is it something that you purposely

[0:25:28 - 0:25:35] ▶

want us to arrive at on our own i did george you need to arrive at it on our own because we can't give

[0:25:35 - 0:25:43] ▶

you a final answer say say if i told you and i'm correct just say i i told you that you know five percent

[0:25:43 - 0:25:51] ▶

of what you need to know and the government doesn't know much more there are people that think they

[0:25:51 - 0:25:59] ▶

they know more but they don't that this that this is wide open and that's why these books are structured

[0:25:59 - 0:26:05] ▶

that way as in you didn't like the term textbook it's been used on reviews of these books but

[0:26:05 - 0:26:11] ▶

a guide books let's use that term guide books uh do you remember the old days when you could open

[0:26:12 - 0:26:18] ▶

buy at the at the store maps you had to draw you know a paper map and heaven help if you took your

[0:26:18 - 0:26:27] ▶

eyes off the steering wheels but because you had to read the map but there is not the iphones weren't

[0:26:27 - 0:26:34] ▶

providing you anything uh the early days of the iphones providing you things i even knew people that

[0:26:34 - 0:26:41] ▶

you know went down dead ends where there was a road or or they came to a water barrier

[0:26:41 - 0:26:47] ▶

now it's much better and people have forgotten they need a guidebook and that's what these are

[0:26:49 - 0:26:55] ▶

do we have all the answers no but the younger folks will develop those answers and they'll

[0:26:55 - 0:27:02] ▶

they'll raise more questions too as they move forward it's that's a great field to be in it's great

[0:27:03 - 0:27:09] ▶

does anyone know does anyone you know know the answers to the big questions who are they is it

[0:27:10 - 0:27:16] ▶

non-human intelligence if so where are they from why they're here what their interest is in us do

[0:27:16 - 0:27:20] ▶

you know the answers to those and does anyone else in the government intelligence community know i don't

[0:27:20 - 0:27:26] ▶

and i don't know anyone that does and i would seriously question their claim that they do the

[0:27:26 - 0:27:33] ▶

fact you're not wasting your time doing research as you're doing it the both of you and anyone in the

[0:27:33 - 0:27:39] ▶

public who decides to if if it it comes to it i mean you can't say i'm going to work on flying saucers

[0:27:39 - 0:27:48] ▶

by the way no one has ever raised the question in these books where whatever happened you know this

[0:27:48 - 0:27:55] ▶

george whatever happened to the plans of the university program those went there was a firm

[0:27:55 - 0:28:02] ▶

plan there for for university programs and those talks went extensively they became like uh what

[0:28:02 - 0:28:10] ▶

happened with kona blue at dhs at least part of it uh they just died on the vine something got in the way

[0:28:10 - 0:28:20] ▶

and uh i don't know i guess it's if people were scared in the universities to form what would have

[0:28:21 - 0:28:29] ▶

been a paranormal research or and it would have been funded it wasn't an issue of money it was an issue

[0:28:29 - 0:28:38] ▶

of of committing to it and i think enrollment would have been through the roof if it was just one or two

[0:28:38 - 0:28:45] ▶

courses okay everything that's in these books was thoroughly investigated all the cases all the incidents

[0:28:45 - 0:28:55] ▶

all the locations uh and you know you you've got some general themes throughout these are craft many

[0:28:55 - 0:29:03] ▶

of them they have effects physical physiological psychological on humans it's real it's happening

[0:29:03 - 0:29:10] ▶

it's happening all over the world and everything that you've written in these four books is approved

[0:29:10 - 0:29:15] ▶

in a sense you had to get permission to publish it including some pretty controversial elements of it

[0:29:15 - 0:29:21] ▶

so the reaction of course from the naysayers is this is drip drip drip um you know it's it's government

[0:29:21 - 0:29:27] ▶

propaganda it's preparing us for a false flag um are you happy now that the four books are done with

[0:29:27 - 0:29:34] ▶

with what you've been able to share and are you frustrated at all by things that you were not able to

[0:29:34 - 0:29:39] ▶

share well no i'm hopeful that i'm going to be able to share in one form or another everything from

[0:29:39 - 0:29:47] ▶

osap and kona blue i i i i expect to be able to do that uh can we have all the details probably not and

[0:29:47 - 0:29:59] ▶

is is is it important to have all the details are we are we skewing people's minds in the in a small but

[0:29:59 - 0:30:08] ▶

still significant wrong directions but uh i don't think anything has been skewed in the wrong direction with what's in here

[0:30:08 - 0:30:16] ▶

we've just opened up the door by saying hey this is real you need to do your research your due diligence

[0:30:16 - 0:30:23] ▶

if you expect the the government to carry the ball on this i wouldn't uh but uh that uh it's wide open now

[0:30:23 - 0:30:34] ▶

as i was saying before the university business

[0:30:34 - 0:30:36] ▶

you can't say i'm going to research ufos and have a medical degree you can't do that in advance if it

[0:30:36 - 0:30:46] ▶

comes to you while you've uh had your medical degree and people are claiming they've seen flying saucers

[0:30:46 - 0:30:53] ▶

or seen aliens or whatever at least you're open to that these books i expect young folks if they read

[0:30:53 - 0:31:02] ▶

them and that's you've given me another idea george should we do a young person's book

[0:31:02 - 0:31:07] ▶

oh what something that's uh much smaller and not as uh detailed i mean this was written for a cross

[0:31:08 - 0:31:18] ▶

section of people of the general public all the way to the phd level the thing is is is there's

[0:31:18 - 0:31:26] ▶

something we can encourage younger people to go on i thought a university course but maybe it even

[0:31:26 - 0:31:32] ▶

needs to be mentioned in high schools we are looking at and all of that to all of that you often say

[0:31:32 - 0:31:40] ▶

this and this is something a lot of people say to me is dr lakatsi is the only one that's out there

[0:31:40 - 0:31:44] ▶

saying hey the intelligence community needs to pass this information forward to the next generation

[0:31:44 - 0:31:50] ▶

or we're going to lose it it's so compartmentalized that there's nobody new coming in and really getting

[0:31:50 - 0:31:56] ▶

informed on the uap issue do you do you feel that way because you push for that a lot that we should have

[0:31:56 - 0:32:01] ▶

it is and the u and i feel that way and i think it's happening on on many other topics many others

[0:32:01 - 0:32:09] ▶

that there's so much information coming in that's really important uh in all aspects of intelligence

[0:32:09 - 0:32:18] ▶

and there simply isn't the personnel perhaps perhaps with how i have seen ai develop uh the advanced

[0:32:18 - 0:32:28] ▶

systems that it can be better handled but jeremy you're correct the history is being lost as we

[0:32:28 - 0:32:37] ▶

speak it's being lost it's being tossed out it can't nothing's being loaded to the degree it has

[0:32:37 - 0:32:45] ▶

has not been maybe now it is well george um our last interview with a representative and i want to get

[0:32:45 - 0:32:55] ▶

dr lakatsky's opinion on this but our last interview george with rep burleson so maybe this is round three

[0:32:55 - 0:33:00] ▶

of fraser verse ali got a direct question um you know rep burleson is kind of like the people's champ

[0:33:00 - 0:33:06] ▶

of ufos right now he has admitted publicly that he has visited a base that was um constructed to hold

[0:33:06 - 0:33:16] ▶

allegedly a very important uap hardware program or at least that's what it could have it could have held

[0:33:16 - 0:33:23] ▶

that he went to pa i'm telling you george and i as journalists like he went to pax river we're sure

[0:33:23 - 0:33:28] ▶

of it um now he's going to be visiting other facilities that have been historically said to hold

[0:33:28 - 0:33:35] ▶

non-human intelligence craft like the one that you admitted to that we breached the whole of so my

[0:33:35 - 0:33:41] ▶

question is you know have you ever been to the pax river facility and is there a craft there how was

[0:33:41 - 0:33:48] ▶

there ever a craft there well i i can answer part of the question i can say yes i've been there yes

[0:33:48 - 0:33:55] ▶

i've seen the facility but it was it was uh just built so uh i can't say what was going to go in there

[0:33:55 - 0:34:05] ▶

it was big enough it you know there's memories fade like that when you're looking at a big building and

[0:34:05 - 0:34:13] ▶

sometimes when i look at big buildings they don't seem quite as big when you're there but this could

[0:34:13 - 0:34:19] ▶

have held our probably our largest aircraft in that building now why would it need to at a naval facility

[0:34:19 - 0:34:27] ▶

i don't know because they wouldn't have a need for that i would think didn't it was going on the

[0:34:27 - 0:34:34] ▶

did they build the facility at pax to hold um a uap or a non-human oh i don't i don't know what the

[0:34:36 - 0:34:41] ▶

purpose was but it was they were finishing construction when i first saw it

[0:34:41 - 0:34:45] ▶

um a lot of the things that uh are really interesting in this new book future visions

[0:34:49 - 0:34:54] ▶

uh deal with skinwalker so we've heard a lot of stories about skinwalker i've helped share them

[0:34:54 - 0:34:58] ▶

with the world to a degree you really break down specific effects that were measurable physical effects

[0:34:58 - 0:35:04] ▶

of strange signals um you give data data concerning the number of sightings of

[0:35:04 - 0:35:10] ▶

creatures um presumably prehistoric creatures that shouldn't exist uh dog men type creatures that

[0:35:11 - 0:35:20] ▶

shouldn't exist and and others and you it's not just based on the ranch itself you guys for osap you

[0:35:20 - 0:35:26] ▶

had this increasingly large concentric circles around the ranch you went out there talked people into

[0:35:26 - 0:35:33] ▶

sharing their stories and and inevitably you heard these stories though people were reluctant to share them

[0:35:33 - 0:35:39] ▶

them initially that seemed to concern confirmed something really weird was going on there is going

[0:35:39 - 0:35:44] ▶

on there it's not just myth myth it's not just made up stories or fantastical dreams that people have

[0:35:44 - 0:35:51] ▶

had these things are real and measurable and did happen right yes and we were very um uh in regard to

[0:35:51 - 0:36:00] ▶

uh dr kelleher he had set up a system where he was cross-referencing information to make sure that there

[0:36:00 - 0:36:07] ▶

wasn't someone who was giving us things that you know we we wanted to hear uh that these cases were

[0:36:07 - 0:36:16] ▶

many of the cases or many of the sightings were seen by multiple people some may have been in the

[0:36:17 - 0:36:22] ▶

same family but it would be generally some of these prehistoric creatures were seen by a number of people

[0:36:22 - 0:36:29] ▶

at the same time how to explain that how to explain the fact that uh

[0:36:29 - 0:36:35] ▶

they seemed to ignore what was going on around them in other words there was a creature that was

[0:36:37 - 0:36:43] ▶

tolling by twiddling by and uh it just ignored like a crowd of people watching it

[0:36:44 - 0:36:51] ▶

how do you explain that i mean it's almost like there are two different realities but we

[0:36:52 - 0:36:57] ▶

that's one of the reasons we didn't try to explain it was tough enough just gathering this information

[0:36:57 - 0:37:03] ▶

because by the way you just didn't walk up to the neighbor of the of skinwalker ranch and and ask

[0:37:03 - 0:37:08] ▶

them strange questions they would have thrown you off the uh uh off their property that's the the the

[0:37:08 - 0:37:16] ▶

the one really interesting man in black case uh where he came was it a black escalade or a black

[0:37:16 - 0:37:24] ▶

suburban yeah and who who out there you know george who out there dust their shoes off in riz dress

[0:37:24 - 0:37:31] ▶

shoes uh it's it's it's almost humorous some of the stuff we collected and it's all been verified it's

[0:37:31 - 0:37:40] ▶

just odd it's sort of the brilliance of osap that you were willing to follow the evidence wherever it

[0:37:40 - 0:37:47] ▶

led and were willing to share the information no how no matter how crazy it sounds because let's say

[0:37:47 - 0:37:54] ▶

that was a government program you think those reports would have bubbled to the surface or they

[0:37:54 - 0:37:58] ▶

would um no they would never in fact they they they they bubbled off the ranch a bit but i wouldn't say

[0:37:58 - 0:38:09] ▶

extensively they are always uh people saying we've heard rumors about what goes on in the ranch

[0:38:09 - 0:38:17] ▶

the government is moved in there uh these strange things occur but the first the first statements

[0:38:17 - 0:38:25] ▶

aren't well let me tell you what's happening around our house or our property that has to slowly be

[0:38:25 - 0:38:31] ▶

pulled out and you were involved in some of those discussions george it has to be slowly pulled out

[0:38:31 - 0:38:38] ▶

because they're thinking there well these these these these are contractors for the government we don't

[0:38:38 - 0:38:45] ▶

want them to think we're a nut do you ever do you ever feel like you're working against our own

[0:38:45 - 0:38:51] ▶

government in in this way that it's so compartmentalized this uap thing that you found that the license

[0:38:51 - 0:38:58] ▶

plates tied to some of these men in black were from department of homeland security is that part correct

[0:38:58 - 0:39:04] ▶

and then i want to ask a second question oh that's that that that part was correct it took some effort on

[0:39:04 - 0:39:10] ▶

our our our government people to that didn't work for the ossep directly but who were involved with it

[0:39:10 - 0:39:18] ▶

to gather that information but i think that's one of the uh i think perhaps jeremy you're not looking at

[0:39:18 - 0:39:27] ▶

that in the right way have i mentioned in the books we were suspicious that there was

[0:39:27 - 0:39:33] ▶

a leak at mufon that someone from the government in some organization not us we were we were having

[0:39:33 - 0:39:44] ▶

them gather information directly for us and we got it directly the good cases directly from mufon

[0:39:44 - 0:39:50] ▶

but had penetrated their their database and were able to outrace us i mean we could respond quickly

[0:39:50 - 0:39:59] ▶

but we couldn't respond instantly nor did we have people on site across the country they had to fly

[0:39:59 - 0:40:05] ▶

out of las vegas so there was a day or two delay mainly a day day and a half that was our suspicion that

[0:40:05 - 0:40:13] ▶

yeah maybe this is a government car but we don't know what agency was looking at it and why were they

[0:40:14 - 0:40:22] ▶

looking at a completely re uh a legitimate reason and it's not working against the government they're

[0:40:22 - 0:40:29] ▶

doing their job to see that a another classified program uh was being protected but what we were

[0:40:29 - 0:40:38] ▶

seeing was not a government classified was there another government classified program out at the ranch ever

[0:40:38 - 0:40:45] ▶

uh not to my knowledge so i mean there could be around it but i was only concerned with our contract

[0:40:45 - 0:40:54] ▶

and that we kept our our stuff uh on the straight and narrow we didn't want to go off on the primrose

[0:40:54 - 0:41:01] ▶

path this direction or other direction when people would send their little remote controlled vehicles

[0:41:01 - 0:41:08] ▶

thank heavens the drones were just under development 10 15 years ago uh when they send them in

[0:41:08 - 0:41:16] ▶

it's well let's just chase this stuff off we know who's doing it we know others are trying it when

[0:41:17 - 0:41:23] ▶

people would come to the front gate that the guard force had their handle had their hands on their

[0:41:23 - 0:41:30] ▶

hands full right at the front gate now i will say at the front gate was where money was materializing out of

[0:41:30 - 0:41:38] ▶

thin air so to be there was like so that everybody's gonna go there like it's las vegas uh can you

[0:41:38 - 0:41:47] ▶

explain that again it wasn't outside the gate money materializing the circle is that why brandon bought the ranch

[0:41:47 - 0:41:53] ▶

well unfortunately it was coins it was not it was not hundred dollar bills well a fifty dollar gold piece

[0:41:55 - 0:42:03] ▶

from a hundred years ago i mean george george i just i'm just real quick so like you and i were

[0:42:03 - 0:42:09] ▶

approached um by a naval intelligence individual and we're given i i mean i got an earful with the

[0:42:09 - 0:42:15] ▶

promise of documents about something called project javelin i've never said it out loud because at this

[0:42:15 - 0:42:20] ▶

point there's nowhere to to follow through on this but there's so much either passage material or

[0:42:20 - 0:42:26] ▶

disinformation that we were as journalists george i were approached by somebody being like there there was a

[0:42:26 - 0:42:31] ▶

program out there that predated osap you've never heard a project javelin have you no dr lakatsky no

[0:42:31 - 0:42:37] ▶

okay so it's probably bs but that helps me and i guess if it's counterintelligence i couldn't say if i

[0:42:38 - 0:42:45] ▶

did but honestly i haven't heard of it back to the money sorry um at the ranch so one of the things that's

[0:42:45 - 0:42:53] ▶

in this new book future visions is you verify that there were unusual electromagnetic signals that seem to be

[0:42:53 - 0:43:01] ▶

emanating from the mesa at the ranch which is very consistent with what the tv show is pursuing these

[0:43:01 - 0:43:06] ▶

days and at the same time in the same section of the book you say that there were counter measures

[0:43:06 - 0:43:11] ▶

taken by osap bass uh to see if you could figure out if somebody some human agency was messing with you

[0:43:11 - 0:43:20] ▶

can you share with us uh the the nature of the signals that you detected and whether the counter

[0:43:20 - 0:43:24] ▶

measures that were taken how they worked and were they related to that signal coming from the mesa

[0:43:24 - 0:43:29] ▶

well we didn't have to take counter measures against the signal it was intermittent but uh

[0:43:30 - 0:43:37] ▶

basically it all started uh we we became concerned about security as you probably know george pretty

[0:43:40 - 0:43:48] ▶

early and that had to do with the uh the placement of transmitting phones by the way government gsa approved

[0:43:48 - 0:43:57] ▶

phones i'm not sure where these particular units came from they must have been modified but they had a

[0:43:57 - 0:44:04] ▶

transmission radius of about uh one to one point five kilometers uh they were not installed at the ranch

[0:44:04 - 0:44:12] ▶

but back at uh uh in las vegas they were discovered by professionals looking for them uh there were suspected

[0:44:12 - 0:44:22] ▶

tracking devices uh they were looked at on vehicles that were back in vegas and there were scrapes on the

[0:44:24 - 0:44:33] ▶

underneath of the vehicles where was the standard place to put these tracking devices so they'd been removed by

[0:44:33 - 0:44:39] ▶

uh they were not installed by people but the the phones themselves had been found uh one of those phones

[0:44:39 - 0:44:47] ▶

was submitted to us to me uh and we uh through one of our uh people who was assigned and worked with me on

[0:44:47 - 0:44:55] ▶

on the osap project uh that was early on well we're thinking if they're doing this back in vegas they might

[0:44:56 - 0:45:05] ▶

be doing this up at the ranch you'd be spied on yes and so we brought in professional organizations that

[0:45:05 - 0:45:12] ▶

were recognized by dia to check and see and there were there wasn't anything of i think the bottom line

[0:45:12 - 0:45:21] ▶

is to say there wasn't anything significant there there was a hint that something might be going on but

[0:45:21 - 0:45:29] ▶

they were intermittent and that was about it so we were comfortable there now there were also attempts

[0:45:29 - 0:45:38] ▶

back at bass by individuals and why they would do this when they're asked to they're employed they're

[0:45:39 - 0:45:47] ▶

asked to do this to transmit all the database that we were gathering from around the world to transmit

[0:45:47 - 0:45:54] ▶

that off site to parties unknown and and they continue after notified so that's when i said hey look we

[0:45:54 - 0:46:06] ▶

need to really find out who's being employed here let's get everyone a secret clearance that's there's no

[0:46:06 - 0:46:13] ▶

rush on that we had the special processing done on the tsscis but that was management and team lead level

[0:46:13 - 0:46:21] ▶

let's find out who everybody is now everything went well we didn't find out any problems on anyone

[0:46:21 - 0:46:28] ▶

uh but perhaps those people had departed because you were being spied on though you were trying to study

[0:46:29 - 0:46:35] ▶

ufos for the government government official program and somebody some entity was employing people to put

[0:46:35 - 0:46:42] ▶

trackers on cars and bug the phones in a secure facility back at big little aerospace right and we had uh

[0:46:42 - 0:46:48] ▶

uh we had counterintelligence you know who's in charge of it in this country is the fbi we had

[0:46:48 - 0:46:56] ▶

them come in and do briefings and what's the current status at both locations and so you know we did our

[0:46:56 - 0:47:03] ▶

due diligence so we were fairly confident that we weren't being spied on i can't speak to the ranch right

[0:47:03 - 0:47:10] ▶

now i i know brandon fugal is doing a great job up there of furthering the research um and with

[0:47:10 - 0:47:19] ▶

a problem who was trying to spy on you uh who was trying to spy on you

[0:47:19 - 0:47:23] ▶

we've had the nor the usual parties we think russia china israel

[0:47:26 - 0:47:33] ▶

uh well you it's some or all of the above i mean or none of the above but it it that's the only

[0:47:33 - 0:47:42] ▶

conclusion you could come to because you know we never traced it back to the source the main thing

[0:47:42 - 0:47:48] ▶

is in counterintelligence is to get them to break connection and so we we were confident we did that

[0:47:48 - 0:47:55] ▶

and as you noted in in the books being complete what were they really learning other than the fact

[0:47:55 - 0:48:02] ▶

that hey this is legit well i've admitted this is all legit uh you know there's we didn't keep

[0:48:02 - 0:48:10] ▶

secret documents at the ranch that was all back in vegas uh so uh you there were some amazing uh

[0:48:10 - 0:48:20] ▶

experiments that were undertaken and questions that remain that at the ranch and we've talked about some

[0:48:20 - 0:48:25] ▶

of them before but i i started this part of the conversation by asking about the electromagnetic signals

[0:48:25 - 0:48:31] ▶

that seemed to be coming from the mesa um did you ever figure out what those were and why was it

[0:48:31 - 0:48:36] ▶

worth pursuing was it because they're transitory they're there one day and gone the next well that

[0:48:36 - 0:48:42] ▶

was the that's the key answer transitory uh we certainly had that during uh our uh

[0:48:42 - 0:48:50] ▶

uh our time there i mean there was a case which i think i can describe in the

[0:48:50 - 0:48:58] ▶

upcoming that happened during kona blue there there was a levitation of a human being and uh

[0:49:00 - 0:49:08] ▶

you know that was by a reliable person now you already know about the levitating objects uh you know

[0:49:10 - 0:49:17] ▶

there at the ranch i'm talking about an actual person uh uh in the air so um

[0:49:17 - 0:49:24] ▶

we um we didn't try to explain as you've commented before and certain events that were clearly off the

[0:49:27 - 0:49:38] ▶

the the uh the property itself because the mesa wasn't on the property and i remember bob bigelow taking

[0:49:38 - 0:49:46] ▶

me up there to check the mesa and he went up the most to me and neither him to go up this route i had no

[0:49:46 - 0:49:56] ▶

idea why we were going up straight up well he wanted to know to get me the full impact uh and that was

[0:49:56 - 0:50:06] ▶

after i saw what i saw inside the ranch house which is kind of a repetitive as i now understand it a

[0:50:06 - 0:50:14] ▶

repetitive in the area i was saying i wasn't the only one to see something in that location you did

[0:50:14 - 0:50:22] ▶

experiments attempting communication with whatever it is um how did they work out did you find anything

[0:50:22 - 0:50:30] ▶

substantive and in general would you say that communication is possible with whatever it is whatever

[0:50:30 - 0:50:37] ▶

whoever they are well uh bob bigelow uh directed column and column handled the you know the legitimacy of

[0:50:37 - 0:50:46] ▶

the experiments of uh moving objects uh moving uh the patterns on a board uh things like that which were

[0:50:46 - 0:50:57] ▶

uh the uh uh the uh uh odd time discrepancies in plants that would grow too fast not grow at all uh

[0:50:57 - 0:51:10] ▶

versus being in las vegas the exact same plants and there were you know i guess i haven't really

[0:51:11 - 0:51:20] ▶

mentioned it in the book what we would have to assume to be time anomalies there too you know with

[0:51:20 - 0:51:26] ▶

certainly the plant growth i mean if a plant is is growing at double the rate it should be that's

[0:51:26 - 0:51:34] ▶

that's noticeable or not growing at all that uh still alive but not growing that needs to be noted too

[0:51:34 - 0:51:42] ▶

we were very heavy on the experimentation but that's very typical for how the intelligence community thinks

[0:51:43 - 0:51:49] ▶

uh gathering information that's that's how the the acquisition community works too gathering information

[0:51:50 - 0:51:58] ▶

and data is very important especially on experiments the problem is having the time and the money to

[0:51:58 - 0:52:05] ▶

analyze it and we were we were doing the best we could we interrupt this program to bring you a special report

[0:52:05 - 0:52:18] ▶

a tip is exactly as i described it here now the day they started using a tip in 2015-16 to describe their their uh

[0:52:20 - 0:52:36] ▶

uh uh uh what would you describe that it's more lunchtime get-togethers that's uh and george is laughing

[0:52:36 - 0:52:46] ▶

george is laughing i don't know how else to describe it i mean well it's a it's a big issue and people

[0:52:46 - 0:52:52] ▶

what do you describe it as but no a tip was the name was created uh for use in senator reed's letter

[0:52:52 - 0:53:02] ▶

for our first attempt for material transfer it came and went the next time i really saw a tip was uh uh

[0:53:02 - 0:53:13] ▶

uh uh uh in in the the new york times article right exactly so so we've just we've kind of got it wrong

[0:53:13 - 0:53:24] ▶

and we we've kind of beaten the dead horse about this but um you know you talk about that name coming

[0:53:24 - 0:53:29] ▶

up in the reed letter for a material transfer you you are talking about a ufo the transfer of a ufo or

[0:53:29 - 0:53:35] ▶

ufo hardware right well it'll be material transfer yes because you can't say more or you don't know

[0:53:35 - 0:53:43] ▶

more because when you say it like that it feels like you're you're diminishing what a reality and

[0:53:43 - 0:53:49] ▶

a truth is if you can't say you can't say it but we're talking about a material transfer related to uap

[0:53:49 - 0:53:54] ▶

hardware yes or no i mean well jeremy what would you think the answer would be well i know what the

[0:53:54 - 0:54:02] ▶

answer is i'm just curious if you can say it i don't think that i that i should i think that the

[0:54:02 - 0:54:10] ▶

letter needs to stand on its own merits it's been brought up even recently the letter what does it

[0:54:10 - 0:54:17] ▶

really mean well dhs and answer the question right there yeah you get accused of talking in circles

[0:54:17 - 0:54:25] ▶

um and i understand why i understand why but i think it's done been said george went up in congress

[0:54:25 - 0:54:31] ▶

and he testified to a material transfer from lockheed martin of what they assumed to be an nhicraft and i

[0:54:31 - 0:54:38] ▶

think it's like you know if you're ever going to say it it's now when you're talking about a material

[0:54:38 - 0:54:42] ▶

transfer i i will stick with i have been author not authorized to say that those words those exact

[0:54:42 - 0:54:50] ▶

words well that's an answer and i'm surprised they're being said you know there's i saw something

[0:54:50 - 0:54:58] ▶

on tv a new edition of one of these shows that is describing what is still a compartmented program

[0:54:58 - 0:55:07] ▶

like a papoose lake different topic but a one of of great mystery

[0:55:07 - 0:55:12] ▶

and the and i was happy that i said thank heavens they don't know what they're talking about on this

[0:55:12 - 0:55:17] ▶

show they're describing all the details so i am very i try to be very cautious i can't say anything

[0:55:17 - 0:55:25] ▶

more about reed's letter but what what do the both of you think i think they were moving a ufo from

[0:55:25 - 0:55:32] ▶

lockheed martin um you know to trying to move ufo from lockheed martin to to the offset program am i an

[0:55:32 - 0:55:38] ▶

idiot dr lakatsky well he no but the thing is there's there's let's go back baby steps here what

[0:55:38 - 0:55:47] ▶

would be the first thing you would do then then a transfer

[0:55:47 - 0:55:50] ▶

uh you'd want to see area what are you getting yourself involved with

[0:55:52 - 0:55:58] ▶

uh-huh so that's that's so let's not put put too many words to that letter you would you know it

[0:55:58 - 0:56:07] ▶

it could be an inspection it could be we were looking for a list that's the that's the first

[0:56:09 - 0:56:16] ▶

step that's an even further baby step we were we were looking for a list that was known to exist

[0:56:16 - 0:56:24] ▶

a list of what where where ufo craft like how put off said we have 10 or more where they're being

[0:56:24 - 0:56:30] ▶

held and what materials they are well i don't know if it would have been where they're they're held but

[0:56:30 - 0:56:35] ▶

we were looking for a list so you shouldn't put too much into that letter other than it was a broad

[0:56:35 - 0:56:40] ▶

request for us uh now we were able to look for the list let's let's jump off that for a moment

[0:56:40 - 0:56:47] ▶

and guess what it had disappeared list of what disappeared a list of what

[0:56:48 - 0:56:54] ▶

recovered materials recovered materials huh it was a list but it had and we were given the exact

[0:56:55 - 0:57:03] ▶

location and it was gone from there and it couldn't be gone by any normal means so

[0:57:03 - 0:57:10] ▶

someone removed it but let's let's go baby steps just about and that's what i'm trying to teach in

[0:57:11 - 0:57:17] ▶

the book go baby steps if people want to get a hundred percent answer no one has that to give you

[0:57:17 - 0:57:24] ▶

so plan out how you're going to research and verify and and don't uh don't dismiss deception

[0:57:24 - 0:57:34] ▶

well is the word deception from let us say uh suspected aliens let's let's use that don't don't dismiss

[0:57:35 - 0:57:44] ▶

the word deception on broad terms their part oh the the messengers of deception meaning the visitors

[0:57:44 - 0:57:53] ▶

themselves could be deceiving humanity haven't you and both you and george encountered profession

[0:57:53 - 0:58:00] ▶

professors in school and i certainly did in in engineering and science they were game players

[0:58:00 - 0:58:07] ▶

they wanted to make you think by playing games sometimes they went too far they just plain weren't

[0:58:07 - 0:58:14] ▶

doing their job as an instructor so i i don't want to be like that but they wanted to have you come to

[0:58:14 - 0:58:21] ▶

your own conclusions the dad is there there's a lot of stuff in these books and i'm not pitching pitching

[0:58:21 - 0:58:28] ▶

selling these things because remember they're they're hard copies are no they're the i guess we sell

[0:58:28 - 0:58:35] ▶

a fair amount of those but the electronic copies are fine forgetting the gist the virgo copies

[0:58:35 - 0:58:42] ▶

well i i'm a person where words go in one ear and out the other well hold on george george is

[0:58:43 - 0:58:49] ▶

dr lukatsky saying that we can't dismiss deception from the visitors themselves that's right that's what

[0:58:49 - 0:58:54] ▶

i'm saying you're you see it throughout your life i've seen it throughout my life yes in school okay got

[0:58:54 - 0:59:02] ▶

you it's a standard technique i'm handing it over to george i'm doing my best um i'd like to return to

[0:59:02 - 0:59:08] ▶

sort of the origins of osap and you know you've covered different threads through the four books but

[0:59:08 - 0:59:14] ▶

you know the first very first incident case investigated by osap was tic tac maybe the most

[0:59:14 - 0:59:21] ▶

consequential ufo series of events ever given the effects of when it came out and uh and your

[0:59:21 - 0:59:29] ▶

colleague jay stratton did the first uh form of the investigation put together a report we're now 22

[0:59:29 - 0:59:36] ▶

years later and uh you know the implication keeps leaking out from we think we know who um oh yeah

[0:59:36 - 0:59:45] ▶

that's one of ours we were just testing it and seeing how the navy would react which seems preposterous but

[0:59:45 - 0:59:50] ▶

if that's one of ours something we built we haven't seen it yet we haven't seen it deployed we know

[0:59:50 - 0:59:56] ▶

that the capabilities of that weapon system would be revolutionary change the world maybe you could

[0:59:56 - 1:00:01] ▶

conquer the world with just one of them if we had it but take us back to tic tac what you've learned

[1:00:01 - 1:00:07] ▶

then what you've learned since was that ours or was it somebody else's and i ask in the context of arrow

[1:00:07 - 1:00:13] ▶

which the last time we talked out of conversation here you basically agreed with us that it looks like a

[1:00:13 - 1:00:19] ▶

counterintelligence operation which of course arrow is like the roach motel the old ads for the roach

[1:00:19 - 1:00:24] ▶

motel roaches go in they never come out witnesses go in testimony goes in nothing comes out arrow has

[1:00:24 - 1:00:31] ▶

yet to formally dismiss um explain uh discourage uh interest in the tic tac is tic tac still legit is it

[1:00:31 - 1:00:42] ▶

ours do we have anything like it and if we did why the hell don't we use it what do you think well i think

[1:00:42 - 1:00:48] ▶

you're you're you're right asking the right questions i'm not the right one to answer on some of them

[1:00:48 - 1:00:54] ▶

others i am but what do you think do you think that that that's such a machine from 25 years ago was

[1:00:54 - 1:01:04] ▶

when it was seen not 25 uh 22 22 uh you think we wouldn't see some evidence of of of that machine now

[1:01:04 - 1:01:15] ▶

you know come in handy it would come in handy uh i mean we saw some unusual craft that have come out

[1:01:15 - 1:01:26] ▶

that are stealth craft um uh drones um but nothing like that and and and there are indicators when we

[1:01:26 - 1:01:38] ▶

were doing osap of high performance drones with battery lives much longer than than were even

[1:01:38 - 1:01:45] ▶

postulated at the time and that we're certainly seeing now uh you know now we're talking about

[1:01:45 - 1:01:52] ▶

drones that fly from one country to another but uh the the answer to your question is

[1:01:52 - 1:01:59] ▶

uh there were some things that still haven't been released that were classified on um on uh the tic tac

[1:01:59 - 1:02:10] ▶

incident so i think if i was just jim of the street the jim public

[1:02:10 - 1:02:18] ▶

i i i wouldn't believe it if anyone told me that that was a classified program of the u.s that i i just

[1:02:18 - 1:02:28] ▶

i just can't believe that but but the thing is is there's classified programs that are your developments

[1:02:28 - 1:02:36] ▶

and you know crumbs that you've picked up in the forest you know that would be quite the crumb

[1:02:37 - 1:02:47] ▶

uh if you know what i mean yeah if there are crumbs left in the forest for you to follow

[1:02:47 - 1:02:53] ▶

that would be a big crumb but i i i just don't believe it that was an unusual

[1:02:54 - 1:02:59] ▶

device as you saw in in uh in some of the specialized studies here which weren't much of a study

[1:03:00 - 1:03:08] ▶

because there were more inquiries into other observations of tick-tack-tack-like objects

[1:03:08 - 1:03:17] ▶

there's a a couple few cases in here and there are others reported in other states i know uh and and

[1:03:17 - 1:03:25] ▶

one in florida and one out west in addition to these so uh you know are these just mundane objects

[1:03:25 - 1:03:34] ▶

you have a couple of sections in this new book about the russian files the thread three files

[1:03:34 - 1:03:41] ▶

and where it led can you give us a summary of what you learned from those uh what was learned and the

[1:03:41 - 1:03:47] ▶

significant conclusions that you could draw from the documents that came back from from the ussr former

[1:03:47 - 1:03:52] ▶

ussr well as you know we trans translated them uh we got a distribution and discussion approved by dia

[1:03:52 - 1:04:03] ▶

because they were all marked highly secret in soviet markings um russian markings um

[1:04:03 - 1:04:12] ▶

i would say that we this is contrary to what's out there on the internet that we patterned our program

[1:04:12 - 1:04:22] ▶

after these well we received them too late in the program to uh to actually pattern anything after the

[1:04:22 - 1:04:31] ▶

the uh thread three uh documents we were in the process of uh studying them and uh

[1:04:32 - 1:04:40] ▶

uh that's when uh we were running into rough waters with the program continuing beyond and actually

[1:04:40 - 1:04:48] ▶

we hadn't planned to do research on them anyway that would have been in a third year fourth year of

[1:04:48 - 1:04:53] ▶

the program um so contrary to what people say we were duplicating the russian program no we had no

[1:04:53 - 1:05:02] ▶

knowledge of it at the time uh so i mean other than the word thread three we certainly didn't have

[1:05:02 - 1:05:11] ▶

any translated documents it's interesting that both countries were following a similar path using

[1:05:11 - 1:05:18] ▶

different languages i felt they committed to a technology too early but that's jim's opinion having

[1:05:18 - 1:05:26] ▶

read over the thread three documents of course that's 30 years difference though both companies were

[1:05:26 - 1:05:32] ▶

offensively were pursuing the same thing they just had it started 30 30 years earlier yes that's true um

[1:05:32 - 1:05:38] ▶

but they didn't do it in the same way for example they were i don't know if they had a

[1:05:40 - 1:05:46] ▶

i would call it very organized collection effort by mufon mufon was very smooth organization when we

[1:05:47 - 1:05:54] ▶

were dealing with them and they were supplying us the key cases um we were able to really utilize that

[1:05:54 - 1:06:04] ▶

properly i didn't see the where the russians were making any attempt to do that so and and to lock into

[1:06:05 - 1:06:13] ▶

certain technology and materials research as early as they did i feel as there was no way we could have

[1:06:13 - 1:06:23] ▶

made a similar decision and besides remember when we use the term acquire materials those materials

[1:06:23 - 1:06:32] ▶

obviously have been looked at before so it's just another set of eyeballs on on the same thing

[1:06:32 - 1:06:39] ▶

well i'll ask you this just as a guess theoretical question you know you're our mutual friend and

[1:06:42 - 1:06:48] ▶

colleague colin keller has stated publicly that he suspected that whatever the intelligence was

[1:06:48 - 1:06:54] ▶

operating at skinwalker ranch and then in the uinti basin might be in a machine intelligence and it

[1:06:54 - 1:07:00] ▶

makes me wonder if you're not stating what who they are where they're from it sounds like it's a non-human

[1:07:00 - 1:07:06] ▶

intelligence of some sort call it aliens ets whatever could that non-human intelligence be ai if

[1:07:06 - 1:07:13] ▶

a machine a version of a machine well we're using our current terminology i mean the answer is yes but

[1:07:13 - 1:07:23] ▶

not in the way you think a machine machine we're not let's not go back to the old star treks and the

[1:07:23 - 1:07:29] ▶

old star wars i mean that's that's our concept hollywood's concept we're we're dealing with things far

[1:07:29 - 1:07:39] ▶

beyond that even in the conceptual role so the thing is is what's a machine what's a human what's

[1:07:39 - 1:07:49] ▶

what's an alien in the future a combination of all probably well let's say a machine intelligence ai

[1:07:49 - 1:07:58] ▶

call it software that's installed here by someone else from somewhere else installed a facility on site

[1:07:58 - 1:08:07] ▶

well sort of a an overarching authority similar to what jacques valet has postulated a control system

[1:08:07 - 1:08:13] ▶

maybe that keeps us from blowing each other up or modulates human activity i hope they would do that

[1:08:14 - 1:08:21] ▶

when the critch comes to shove but the fact is is that uh as as you well know among any of us here or

[1:08:21 - 1:08:31] ▶

among your listeners there are other locations that are just as substantial as the ranch if not more so

[1:08:31 - 1:08:38] ▶

so we're talking about a worldwide overview i i can conceptualize it

[1:08:39 - 1:08:46] ▶

off planet origin but i i certainly can't as something that is uh

[1:08:49 - 1:08:55] ▶

uh an overarching system that is on earth uh doing all of this now that is not in contradiction to my

[1:08:55 - 1:09:07] ▶

cover here which looks a bit unusual

[1:09:08 - 1:09:12] ▶

and it is unusual too what you designed for the cover it didn't turn out that way correct

[1:09:15 - 1:09:19] ▶

i let loose on this one i i asked ai to come up with this one based upon reading the books what

[1:09:19 - 1:09:30] ▶

would it what would it show and this is what it came up with i haven't changed this at all except for

[1:09:30 - 1:09:38] ▶

the fact is i'm i'm i'm constantly asked on on these three books or two of them the last two um

[1:09:38 - 1:09:46] ▶

um can you submit a higher resolution cover and uh in in really in both cases

[1:09:46 - 1:09:54] ▶

i had to put the star field back in the high resolution this is a technical issue with however

[1:09:56 - 1:10:02] ▶

amazon produces these the entire star field disappears i have no idea why but the the basic what you see

[1:10:02 - 1:10:10] ▶

here on the covers you know on the previous one on new insights the the square was suggested and drawn

[1:10:10 - 1:10:22] ▶

totally contrary to my request totally maybe ai knows something you don't well it is or it's better designer than i am and has more

[1:10:23 - 1:10:34] ▶

more more thoughts into it i mean it put into the the sheeting if you look real close there's there's panels on the uh on the uh the square

[1:10:34 - 1:10:45] ▶

there's more coming in from above other craft and

[1:10:46 - 1:10:50] ▶

it put it in so i utilize ai in in regard to the cover but i will tell you that not one word other than

[1:10:51 - 1:11:01] ▶

suggestions on the index which is as always confused me is how am i supposed to form an index on these

[1:11:01 - 1:11:11] ▶

documents when you don't know what's in the document so i'm having to come up with innovative i've asked ai

[1:11:11 - 1:11:18] ▶

its suggestions but i i still have to do it but not a word not a word in the rest of the documents is ai

[1:11:18 - 1:11:26] ▶

generated there's your law from official files

[1:11:26 - 1:11:31] ▶

you know uh mr bigelow our mutual friend yes gave me the green light to go ahead and say to congress

[1:11:34 - 1:11:40] ▶

that there was a negotiation going on between lockheed martin and bass to acquire materials to the transfer of materials

[1:11:40 - 1:11:48] ▶

and he you know that's the first time he's ever said yeah you can go ahead and say it publicly under oath

[1:11:49 - 1:11:54] ▶

and then you know that's the first time you're going to be able to do it um the implication is that there are

[1:11:54 - 1:11:56] ▶

other materials out there uh you have written in a previous book there was an entire craft of unknown origin

[1:11:56 - 1:12:03] ▶

should we assume that there are more and and was your revelation in that book and and in this book

[1:12:04 - 1:12:11] ▶

it was authorized by all the adopter process somebody wanted that to be said i mean to go that far it's

[1:12:12 - 1:12:20] ▶

astonishing to me that was ever allowed and um and it makes it it makes us wonder why why it happened

[1:12:20 - 1:12:29] ▶

give it in the context of right now president trump has said i'm going to release the files which whether

[1:12:29 - 1:12:34] ▶

or not that actually happens i don't know what those files would be but it seems like there is a an

[1:12:34 - 1:12:39] ▶

interest among the public certainly to see whatever there is you and i and jeremy know they're only going

[1:12:39 - 1:12:46] ▶

to be satisfied with somebody says we've got 12 land saucers we got 18 bodies and here they are

[1:12:46 - 1:12:51] ▶

you know anything short of that people will be pissed off about it and can you imagine a time

[1:12:51 - 1:12:57] ▶

when something will be released publicly that goes beyond you being able to say there's a craft we got

[1:12:57 - 1:13:04] ▶

inside of it we got at least one and being able to say yeah there was a planned transfer of material

[1:13:04 - 1:13:10] ▶

unusual material to being a little aerospace would you predict that that will go further at some point would

[1:13:10 - 1:13:16] ▶

you say it's likely to happen now under this administration that says they're going to release

[1:13:16 - 1:13:20] ▶

the files uh i can see it happening but you you qualified your questioning uh there with under this

[1:13:20 - 1:13:29] ▶

administration and possibly under a near term administration the answer to that is i don't

[1:13:29 - 1:13:35] ▶

believe so but it will it'll go further you know in the future excuse me it'll go further

[1:13:35 - 1:13:42] ▶

a lot of the things we as you can tell i'm deflecting your questions oh and they never happened before

[1:13:42 - 1:13:53] ▶

here right no it's the first time but uh the thing is is is i really can't go further you know i i think

[1:13:53 - 1:14:02] ▶

that uh you mentioned was it the last time i interviewed with you uh that uh uh congressman burleson

[1:14:02 - 1:14:12] ▶

had stated that um you know my testimony wouldn't be any more insightful than these books that is a

[1:14:12 - 1:14:21] ▶

correct statement he's making i've been approved for these books it wouldn't be i could only say

[1:14:21 - 1:14:27] ▶

because i'm not answering right now you're you're pushing the envelope you've gone beyond the envelope

[1:14:27 - 1:14:32] ▶

and i can't answer that way so you could answer to congress even if they had you under oath you

[1:14:32 - 1:14:39] ▶

wouldn't be allowed to answer them on some of the um more sensitive compartmentalized issues of uap okay

[1:14:39 - 1:14:46] ▶

you asked a specific question there about congress i couldn't answer

[1:14:46 - 1:14:50] ▶

if if

[1:14:52 - 1:14:53] ▶

if other individuals or an individual asked me higher level wow equivalent level in the constitution so you're

[1:14:55 - 1:15:04] ▶

allowed to protect information even from congress i've been told that before and i've been you know

[1:15:04 - 1:15:11] ▶

that i'd have to be accompanied uh throughout my career so that's uh i would say that no one i would

[1:15:11 - 1:15:20] ▶

hope that no one is lying to congress however i know differently in these hearings you do know that

[1:15:20 - 1:15:26] ▶

people have lied during the hearings i've i know that people have lied and they've raised now hold

[1:15:26 - 1:15:33] ▶

on who's lied and what did they lie about oh i could never say that why are you are you not allowed to

[1:15:33 - 1:15:40] ▶

say that no i wouldn't professionally say that okay i mean we're we're talking about people who may not

[1:15:40 - 1:15:48] ▶

know there's a lot of this going on these days but let me tell you that there's people who don't know

[1:15:48 - 1:15:53] ▶

the difference between a lie and exaggeration and pure fantasy okay but just as you you've said it hold

[1:15:54 - 1:16:02] ▶

on you've said it so let's let's eliminate who didn't lie because i think that's important to do to

[1:16:02 - 1:16:07] ▶

them because you just want to target on people so dylan borland did he lie oh i would never say that

[1:16:07 - 1:16:16] ▶

no you wouldn't say that because it's not true he didn't lie no i wouldn't say that because i don't

[1:16:16 - 1:16:21] ▶

know okay well that's different so you know of somebody that lied but that is not dylan borland correct

[1:16:21 - 1:16:26] ▶

i i haven't i don't know him at all no no okay but that that's important because you said somebody

[1:16:28 - 1:16:34] ▶

lied in congress and you're aware of it so you're isolating somebody that lied and it's important

[1:16:34 - 1:16:39] ▶

to me that we are very clear that that is not george knapp not dylan borland stop me if i'm wrong not

[1:16:39 - 1:16:46] ▶

senior chief wiggins not jeff mucitelli oh here you're going to go through all the people no i'm not

[1:16:46 - 1:16:54] ▶

going to do that i'm just going to make sure that our audience understands that when you've said somebody

[1:16:54 - 1:16:59] ▶

particularly has lied in congress and you know it but you won't elaborate that we take the the the

[1:16:59 - 1:17:04] ▶

bullseye off of people that i know you're not talking about so that would be there's no bullseye

[1:17:04 - 1:17:10] ▶

on these people they've all moved off uh no no no they haven't their statements they've sworn to their

[1:17:10 - 1:17:18] ▶

statements and i guess leave that sleeping dog lie oh don't start saying those words man you don't know

[1:17:18 - 1:17:25] ▶

what you just did um sleeping dog right i i hear you but it's important to me because i helped bring

[1:17:25 - 1:17:31] ▶

those people in that we get very clear that your accusation that somebody lied that it is not i'm

[1:17:31 - 1:17:37] ▶

just going to say four people george knapp dylan borland senior chief wiggins or jeff mucitelli

[1:17:37 - 1:17:42] ▶

who have testified and and those are the people you brought in you're saying i brought in almost

[1:17:43 - 1:17:49] ▶

everybody with george but i'm just saying those four people now now we're going something i can't answer

[1:17:49 - 1:17:54] ▶

and i won't answer anymore the fact is i made a statement that there was falsehoods made uh uh

[1:17:54 - 1:18:00] ▶

uh the source of those falsehoods hoods could be total delusion i think otherwise other people think

[1:18:00 - 1:18:08] ▶

otherwise but it could be that they're just totally deluded okay but i mean i think i know what you're

[1:18:08 - 1:18:14] ▶

referencing and i just think it's important to just separate the people so that you don't paint the

[1:18:14 - 1:18:19] ▶

false target on your back that's necessary i think this is part of the research

[1:18:19 - 1:18:23] ▶

process and you're doing it but uh you you can't you can't come to an answer by just getting another

[1:18:23 - 1:18:31] ▶

bit of information from some of the people i don't i don't even know i know there's a disconnect here

[1:18:31 - 1:18:37] ▶

because you don't realize what it takes when people go up there and and they raise their hand and you're

[1:18:37 - 1:18:42] ▶

saying somebody lied and i want to make sure to take the false target off of certain people's backs so

[1:18:42 - 1:18:47] ▶

the public doesn't start creating and filling in nonsense again but we'll move on i just wanted to make

[1:18:47 - 1:18:52] ▶

sure i know you can't i can't help you with that and besides that i i wouldn't uh there when people

[1:18:52 - 1:19:00] ▶

it's just like enough there's another reason i won't testify at congress that the boat is sailed on

[1:19:00 - 1:19:08] ▶

there's testimony they said what they said and i can't go back and correct it even though i have proof

[1:19:08 - 1:19:15] ▶

that that could correct it i can't do that it's too late it can't be undone it can't be undone and

[1:19:15 - 1:19:25] ▶

and people know that in general in from experiences in their lives that once it gets going false stories

[1:19:25 - 1:19:31] ▶

can't be undone poor kids on the internet kill themselves because of the same reason false stories

[1:19:31 - 1:19:39] ▶

about them back to the idea of disclosure you know the public has its ideas of what disclosure should

[1:19:39 - 1:19:46] ▶

be the president has issued a directive it's not an executive authority has no authority behind it to

[1:19:46 - 1:19:53] ▶

declassify what most certainly is classified materials uh files and and videos and things of

[1:19:53 - 1:19:59] ▶

that sort the osap materials so taken together these four books are the closest we are to actual

[1:19:59 - 1:20:06] ▶

disclosure given that everything you've written has been authorized by the various people and agencies

[1:20:06 - 1:20:12] ▶

in the process as of this time it's it's effectively as you said jordan's disclosure is there concern if

[1:20:12 - 1:20:21] ▶

you think forward in what disclosure in the forms it could take whatever trump and and uh the his agencies

[1:20:21 - 1:20:29] ▶

might reveal in the future and we have no idea what that might be do you can are you concerned about

[1:20:29 - 1:20:34] ▶

disruption of human civilization of of religions freaking out of people rioting in the streets

[1:20:34 - 1:20:40] ▶

the stock market crumbling from anything that you suspect could be released but hasn't yet to be

[1:20:40 - 1:20:45] ▶

released well i'm i'm i i think you would be getting an incomplete story an incomplete narrative if

[1:20:45 - 1:20:57] ▶

something further was released and i'm afraid of people going off society going off in the wrong

[1:20:57 - 1:21:05] ▶

direction and that's my only concern but i won't be around to see that i don't think something's going

[1:21:05 - 1:21:12] ▶

to happen tomorrow or or in the immediate future why would we get a incomplete story if disclosure was

[1:21:12 - 1:21:21] ▶

pushed a little bit further can you just elaborate on that oh yes sure you would be getting an

[1:21:21 - 1:21:26] ▶

incomplete story an incomplete story i mean if if if you're satisfied with the fact that they would

[1:21:26 - 1:21:34] ▶

reveal that there is uh alien technology being encountered and that there are aliens if you were

[1:21:34 - 1:21:42] ▶

be really jeremy think about if you would be satisfied with just that would you be well you know me and

[1:21:42 - 1:21:51] ▶

you know i wouldn't be but you also know that that's a good starting point what you just said as an

[1:21:51 - 1:21:56] ▶

acknowledgement of disclosure and it goes on and on and on and on that's okay that's not your problem oh

[1:21:56 - 1:22:02] ▶

it it is my problem if i've contributed to it going on and on in the wrong direction and i don't want that

[1:22:04 - 1:22:12] ▶

well i don't think you can stop it at this point if the words you just said were said by our president

[1:22:12 - 1:22:17] ▶

and then there was some form of proof that was shown maybe in missouri like the show me state

[1:22:17 - 1:22:22] ▶

and we could bang hammers on a craft of non-human origin you know an extraterrestrial maybe even

[1:22:22 - 1:22:27] ▶

craft try to you know bring some propane torches just to get a feel that that is true that would

[1:22:27 - 1:22:33] ▶

be a disclosure you know disclosure day the movie's coming up that would be a disclosure that i think

[1:22:33 - 1:22:38] ▶

people would embrace and i don't think it is anybody's job to hold back the nature of reality

[1:22:38 - 1:22:44] ▶

from humankind so i think that if we got that or is that going to reveal the nature of reality

[1:22:44 - 1:22:51] ▶

you you know you tell me but what it's going to do is stop hiding the nature of reality and so if we got

[1:22:51 - 1:22:56] ▶

that part down because it's nobody can be the overlord of truth so if we get that part down sure we

[1:22:56 - 1:23:01] ▶

protect our nuclear secrets just like we protect how to make a nuclear bomb but we know nuclear fusion

[1:23:01 - 1:23:06] ▶

and nuclear reactions exist if everything was revealed to you right now would be so incomplete it would

[1:23:06 - 1:23:12] ▶

be useless meaning because nobody really knows the ultimate answer the correct not even our government

[1:23:12 - 1:23:21] ▶

that there are there are people that might think they do but they don't okay that's all you know

[1:23:21 - 1:23:28] ▶

look and it's not a personal attack on you this is um something i feel very passionate about which is

[1:23:28 - 1:23:33] ▶

that it is nobody's right tell you jeremy it comes across as that and it comes across to the public as that

[1:23:33 - 1:23:40] ▶

is that i'm doing something wrong george is correct they've gotten what they've gotten right here it's

[1:23:40 - 1:23:46] ▶

complete and it's truthful and i'm telling you that there's falsehoods out there they're being led down

[1:23:46 - 1:23:51] ▶

a wrong path congress is being led down a wrong path the president is being led down the wrong path

[1:23:51 - 1:23:59] ▶

there's a problem here and i'm i'm disturbed by it because i'm not going to live forever and i want the

[1:24:01 - 1:24:06] ▶

truth to come out it's like senator reed told me they're kind of on their own because he felt he felt

[1:24:06 - 1:24:13] ▶

sorry for me by you know uh the way i had to be badgered and i had people reinforcements jump up

[1:24:13 - 1:24:21] ▶

for me i had other people who just denied me who who denied their association i had others that jump up

[1:24:22 - 1:24:30] ▶

and jumped into the pitch battle and i'm talking about at the high i'm talking beyond and outside dia

[1:24:30 - 1:24:37] ▶

the fact is is there is two forces out there that want people to know and and there are those that

[1:24:38 - 1:24:46] ▶

don't want people to know and is that religious element out there absolutely is it effective absolutely

[1:24:46 - 1:24:55] ▶

not however the turmoil it creates has been terrible but i'm not blending that part of it i'm

[1:24:55 - 1:25:02] ▶

talking about the more fundamental in in human nature so you've had me say a lot more i look like

[1:25:02 - 1:25:09] ▶

i have a calm demeanor all the time where i actually don't you know the fact is when i'm seeing total

[1:25:09 - 1:25:15] ▶

failure and and i feel that maybe i shouldn't have bothered writing these books george disclosing this

[1:25:15 - 1:25:22] ▶

and i said the same at ossa and people said oh no jen that's not true it's just because it's ending

[1:25:22 - 1:25:28] ▶

it was the way it was unceremoniously ended you know it was just a couple letters went out

[1:25:28 - 1:25:36] ▶

and is we just want to get rid of this attitude in the letters uh so did one side win and another side

[1:25:36 - 1:25:43] ▶

lose no because we completed the job in kona blue and what we did in dhs we competed completed

[1:25:43 - 1:25:52] ▶

the job as much as we could people asked me did no people haven't asked me but they should

[1:25:52 - 1:25:59] ▶

that transfer of material that dhs said in kona blue

[1:26:01 - 1:26:05] ▶

denied didn't exist don't you think i already knew that already this was the third attempt for that

[1:26:08 - 1:26:18] ▶

transfer under the conditions laid for us the third attempt and this was did i not know it was going to

[1:26:18 - 1:26:27] ▶

fail what i didn't know and the surprise what i didn't know was something i can't tell you right now

[1:26:27 - 1:26:37] ▶

i was very surprised of what they were really focused on very surprised and it wasn't transfer of

[1:26:37 - 1:26:46] ▶

recovered technology can you give us a hint or can i give you a hint no i can't give you a hint

[1:26:46 - 1:26:53] ▶

you're going to have to come to that conclude conclusion i don't think i ever be allowed to

[1:26:54 - 1:26:59] ▶

reveal that and it would be denied by others so i'd never have any proof but i know where they're i know

[1:26:59 - 1:27:06] ▶

where they were coming from and uh we were this discussion was by myself and a key individual on

[1:27:06 - 1:27:14] ▶

the secure line because i was what you want what

[1:27:14 - 1:27:20] ▶

so the thing is i didn't say that to them because they would i had to say i'll try i'll try i'm trying

[1:27:22 - 1:27:28] ▶

but i i am upset because i mean people are getting spun up the government people got spun up

[1:27:29 - 1:27:36] ▶

let me tell you one big spin up and one real problem we had was the discovery of those phones

[1:27:36 - 1:27:42] ▶

that that brought attention on this project like you wouldn't believe and it was from the religious

[1:27:43 - 1:27:50] ▶

element i ultimately found out they found out about this program by people talking about those secure

[1:27:50 - 1:27:56] ▶

phones they weren't concerned about this was leaking they were concerned that this project even existed

[1:27:56 - 1:28:03] ▶

were those people beaten back well they didn't think they were but they were they were and they were

[1:28:03 - 1:28:11] ▶

beaten back in three different organizations in fact one i believe one of the proponents was thrown out of

[1:28:11 - 1:28:18] ▶

the room literally so it was it was i'm i'm giving you a story in one sense about the experience that i had at dia

[1:28:18 - 1:28:31] ▶

and with uh dhs and with dni it was a pitch battle i i mean there were people at dhs that uh i was

[1:28:31 - 1:28:44] ▶

warned you you need to stick keep clear of i didn't even work there and i'm being warned by hooted

[1:28:44 - 1:28:49] ▶

you know they're in a uh they've got the management a year and i'm talking top level the directors a year

[1:28:49 - 1:28:55] ▶

and you know don't engage with them don't say the slightest word wrong uh it was just unbelievable

[1:28:55 - 1:29:04] ▶

and i'm in fact it's a story both of you would love to hear and that's why i'm convinced this will

[1:29:04 - 1:29:10] ▶

never go forward again you may find out some pieces and that you would like to find out that the

[1:29:10 - 1:29:17] ▶

counterintelligence people have approved but you know as a comprehensive program that was let loose to

[1:29:17 - 1:29:24] ▶

do what it needed to do and we failed at times we failed at the university we failed in brazil let's

[1:29:24 - 1:29:31] ▶

let's call it what it was you know we spent money uh we didn't fail on all the documents the 38 we

[1:29:31 - 1:29:39] ▶

didn't fail at all there we didn't fail at all on the research that bass did we got everything we needed

[1:29:39 - 1:29:45] ▶

the verifications we got the the lowdown this that true story but the thing is is

[1:29:45 - 1:29:52] ▶

you know that and it's the important story jeremy that's important to you it's the important story

[1:29:52 - 1:29:59] ▶

we got it leads into the important aspects of this and which i hope to see keep going it's it's going

[1:29:59 - 1:30:08] ▶

in which is that it's beyond just craft the importance are this great oh it's far beyond just craft

[1:30:08 - 1:30:15] ▶

and you know and some of the material we acquired show that it's far beyond it is about craft there's

[1:30:15 - 1:30:23] ▶

certainly something to learn there i mean there's a lot to learn but it's it's more than just that

[1:30:23 - 1:30:29] ▶

but you know it's constantly had reading about me do i monitor the web i monitor it very closely because i

[1:30:31 - 1:30:38] ▶

try to adjust the content of the books to that still be truthful and try to keep them entertaining

[1:30:38 - 1:30:43] ▶

but you know it's hard to around fools and i know what they say about the both of you too let's not

[1:30:44 - 1:30:50] ▶

well let's not be i know that but hey you know and i don't say i do i interview with it despite that the

[1:30:50 - 1:30:58] ▶

fact is i think you're both great guys and you've helped a lot but you know don't become obsessed with

[1:30:58 - 1:31:04] ▶

this don't go to the to the grave thinking that i will learn everything by the time you know i i make my

[1:31:04 - 1:31:11] ▶

flight to heaven well i i maybe you will but i just want to learn then i want to learn the next piece you

[1:31:11 - 1:31:18] ▶

know and me pushing is just because i don't have much option here um you know i really appreciate

[1:31:18 - 1:31:23] ▶

um all that you've done known and unknown for the the movement that people call disclosure but really just about

[1:31:23 - 1:31:31] ▶

telling the truth um i got a bunch a bunch of messages uh yesterday and today people kind of you know i've talked to

[1:31:31 - 1:31:38] ▶

said yeah i'm going to do an interview tomorrow they knew who george and i were talking about and

[1:31:38 - 1:31:42] ▶

they wanted to thank you people that that you know have raised their hand or not they they want to

[1:31:42 - 1:31:46] ▶

thank you for everything that you've done you know within government and publicly and put yourself out

[1:31:46 - 1:31:52] ▶

there to you that to you but it doesn't come across on the internet that way yeah uh it doesn't come

[1:31:52 - 1:31:59] ▶

across that way at all in fact i'm saying if if these are the fools we're dealing with and we might as

[1:31:59 - 1:32:05] ▶

well you know just give up right now but i tell you there are the people out there who are going to

[1:32:05 - 1:32:12] ▶

keep going they're just they're going to be breakthroughs but i concern both technology wise and otherwise

[1:32:12 - 1:32:20] ▶

but it all comes down to to physics let's say so it is technology um i i am concerned and i am

[1:32:20 - 1:32:33] ▶

saying this right now as an old man because the crew is getting old jeremy they're going to start

[1:32:33 - 1:32:39] ▶

dying too what we ran into in northern tier i truthfully came across with but there's a lot more

[1:32:39 - 1:32:46] ▶

in the documents that say we can't find out anything this person's dead the persons are all gone

[1:32:46 - 1:32:53] ▶

northern tiers become meaningless in other words the the saucers uh coming into the purported saucers

[1:32:54 - 1:33:01] ▶

coming in to uh nuclear missile sites maces yeah in fact uh i was laughingly told to by uh air force

[1:33:01 - 1:33:10] ▶

intelligence that the security guards at dia had blocked them from leaving unless they'd talk to me

[1:33:10 - 1:33:16] ▶

because i had i was working on you don't know about this but another case and another big case

[1:33:17 - 1:33:24] ▶

involving the same thing and coercion into the the missile silos but the fact is is we failed in getting

[1:33:24 - 1:33:33] ▶

any more information than what's out there i'm just hope it's compiled enough that people understand

[1:33:33 - 1:33:39] ▶

how does the internet also breeds false documents it has plenty of false information out there deliberate

[1:33:39 - 1:33:47] ▶

but uh we had our failures too i don't emphasize them but you i think people can kind of read between

[1:33:48 - 1:33:57] ▶

the lines and see well you went to brazil and you went there really to get a blood sample of a particular

[1:33:57 - 1:34:04] ▶

individual and that and you were promised that from the key individuals both here and in brazil that

[1:34:04 - 1:34:11] ▶

that would be obtained and it wasn't obtained you know because i'm quite used to having the rug pulled

[1:34:11 - 1:34:18] ▶

out from under me in this project and uh sinister forces no i don't think so it's just the way it's done

[1:34:18 - 1:34:26] ▶

is the ultimate um you've been optimistic in in previous conversations you know about where this could lead

[1:34:27 - 1:34:34] ▶

in terms of human potential not nuts and bolts i am i am but it could be taken another way too

[1:34:34 - 1:34:40] ▶

the same could be could go in the wrong direction you wrote these books and these books will resonate

[1:34:41 - 1:34:47] ▶

through time and maybe right now humanity's not ready to to really take it on the nose with this stuff

[1:34:47 - 1:34:53] ▶

or we're asking the wrong questions but what you've done will last the test of time jim you realize that

[1:34:53 - 1:34:58] ▶

right i don't know i really don't i hope it would and that's my intent that's why my intent to keep

[1:34:58 - 1:35:05] ▶

going but uh uh you've got your hands full to convince people even on your weaponized show i i know

[1:35:05 - 1:35:13] ▶

that you've got a a bunch of supporters but i i'm wondering how many are here for entertainment uh well

[1:35:13 - 1:35:23] ▶

and how many are here to dissuade people from believing it that they're assigned to attack it

[1:35:23 - 1:35:29] ▶

and and cast doubt about it well they may be officially assigned too but there's those who

[1:35:29 - 1:35:34] ▶

uh i could name some names here too that are considered expert references for these paranormal

[1:35:35 - 1:35:42] ▶

shows out there that go on believe me they know nothing they know nothing about what they're talking about

[1:35:42 - 1:35:49] ▶

about what they're talking about but as as i told you in our last interview they speak with this

[1:35:49 - 1:35:55] ▶

knowledge and authority based on what who assigns them knowledge and authority i gotta say i don't

[1:35:55 - 1:36:04] ▶

feel bad um i'm pressing dr james lakatsky uh vau george has become a friend to a degree in that you know

[1:36:04 - 1:36:12] ▶

i know where his heart's at and know what he's trying to do and he does get a bad rap you know people say

[1:36:12 - 1:36:16] ▶

well you can't say this and this is you know z but you've just said a all the way up to um y but

[1:36:16 - 1:36:23] ▶

you can't say z so he you know look i have to press him a little bit but out of out of love and out of

[1:36:23 - 1:36:29] ▶

interest and because that's we got to find out what's underneath the hood there man he is a mystical

[1:36:29 - 1:36:35] ▶

person when he talks but i i do understand he's protecting national security issues and i think

[1:36:35 - 1:36:42] ▶

everybody needs to understand that he's done more than he can he's done as much as he can and i just

[1:36:42 - 1:36:47] ▶

appreciate him and people online man give him give the guy a break he's not he doesn't have a thick

[1:36:47 - 1:36:51] ▶

skin for online stuff like maybe you and i have to um look at what he's done look at what he's given you

[1:36:51 - 1:36:57] ▶

and and it's up to us to take it from there yeah i think the interesting thing for him is

[1:36:58 - 1:37:03] ▶

uh first a legal one you know he made oaths it's his honor on the line he made a promise he would

[1:37:03 - 1:37:11] ▶

go this far and no further and there's a legal issue involved he he got authorization because that's the

[1:37:11 - 1:37:17] ▶

guy he is maybe he's like a previous generation type guy who not previous from my generation but uh

[1:37:17 - 1:37:24] ▶

that he uh he gets permission legal authority to reveal more and he won't go further the more

[1:37:24 - 1:37:30] ▶

important lesson from him both in this conversation and in others that you and i have had with him

[1:37:30 - 1:37:35] ▶

is that ultimately nobody knows the ultimate truth we don't know where these things are from

[1:37:35 - 1:37:42] ▶

we don't know who built these craft we don't know the long-range implications of for is there a plan for

[1:37:42 - 1:37:48] ▶

humanity how long they've been here what do they got in mind as we have spoken many times in our

[1:37:48 - 1:37:54] ▶

conversations with him and with others you know we've long suspected nobody really knows the

[1:37:54 - 1:38:00] ▶

answers to this you and i've been pretty far up the food chain asking the same kind of questions

[1:38:00 - 1:38:05] ▶

and we haven't found a single person who can say oh yeah these these aliens they're aliens they're

[1:38:05 - 1:38:09] ▶

ets they're from the planet krypton and here's why they're here and this is what they want to do

[1:38:09 - 1:38:14] ▶

they genetically engineered us um bob lazar read a lot of interesting documents he doesn't know if

[1:38:14 - 1:38:20] ▶

they were true or they were a test of some kind we have yet to find a single person in the u.s

[1:38:20 - 1:38:26] ▶

government that knows the ultimate answers we what he has shared with us is as far as he can go but he

[1:38:26 - 1:38:32] ▶

doesn't have any knowledge of what the ultimate answers are any more than we do he certainly knows

[1:38:33 - 1:38:38] ▶

more information that we do and that in more information that he's made public but he doesn't

[1:38:38 - 1:38:43] ▶

know the ultimate answers to the big questions and people can stomp and yell stomp their feet and

[1:38:43 - 1:38:49] ▶

demand the full truth but they're never going to be satisfied because nobody else really knows the

[1:38:49 - 1:38:54] ▶

answers to those either i think the most interesting tidbits in that exchange that we haven't discussed

[1:38:54 - 1:39:00] ▶

further deal with kona blue he made comments a couple of times jeremy where he's talking about

[1:39:00 - 1:39:05] ▶

kona blue as if it is real you know the popular conception is it ended that dhs kicked it out

[1:39:05 - 1:39:12] ▶

seems to be very tantalizing tidbits that at least an element of kona blue went forward and may still be

[1:39:12 - 1:39:19] ▶

going forward in a previous conversation with me he said he sort of acknowledged that that uh that

[1:39:19 - 1:39:26] ▶

elements of kona blue did go forward we may never know any of that and we know don't know which elements

[1:39:26 - 1:39:32] ▶

of kona blue did go forward but it sounds like maybe he might be pursuing that as a future project

[1:39:32 - 1:39:38] ▶

that he hopes to make public yeah i mean he in his book i read through it twice really wanted to make sure

[1:39:38 - 1:39:43] ▶

i had good questions lakatsky reveals that he personally briefed two department of homeland

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security officials in a skiff for three and a half hours in february of 2011 and he said that that left

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them shell shocked that's a quote with sleepless nights and his exact words were that osap never ended

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but converted to kona blue so he's he's not like hinting at it he straight told you that kona blue moved

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into some aspect of working on the phenomenon that it wasn't a dead program that it's not a dead

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program yeah you're right and he said something even further in another conversation with me he said

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it has to go forward he said it cannot end it had to go forward to some degree it's there will never be

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another osap nothing that broad but at least one element of kona blue is going forward we just don't

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know what it is right yeah he can't say right you probably cannot say for natural security reasons

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yeah right exactly i mean we don't want him to go to prison before crossing a lot well he wouldn't he's

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he's so fastidious about drawing that line and it's got to be frustrating i think i saw a little bit of

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that today it's got to be frustrating for him he's like standing on a mountaintop telling it like it is

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in the most just specific direct you know order and it's got to be frustrating that people are out

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there in ufo land spreading lies making things up it's a fantasist world in ufo land a lot of the time

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and it just it's got to really bother somebody like him deep down when they're coming towards

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looking at the sunset of their life in a way i mean he's not getting any younger and he said that

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and we have to transfer this information and there's so much fantasy out there and i've given you

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like books that are exact which you know they are with him so yeah he is meticulous for sure and then

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you know obviously he's also shared with us before that he's dropping some breadcrumbs here he wants us

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to fill in the blanks in in some of the things that he shared with us and i think he's discouraged to

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many times because people are not paying attention they want data here's some and they don't pay any

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attention to it he's he's you know connecting dots sometimes subtly and and and it goes right over

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people's heads and i imagine that it gets frustrating for him and he wonders why am i bothering with it

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well we're all we're all frustrated when we talk about you know trying to figure out what's going on

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especially if you get from a guy like him who says look i don't know anybody that knows the full picture

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that's got to be kind of scary too you know yeah and i think bottom line in other conversations that you and

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i've had with him is that there is a glimmer of hope in all of this uh that he's shared with us that

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there's something about human potential that gets revealed at as a bottom line in all this kind of

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research uh that um that we haven't had uh him expressed to us in specific terms but maybe he'll

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come back and maybe he'll share that with us in the future anyway it was a great conversation yeah thanks so

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much man so yeah oh i think uh next week it's um episode or maybe in a week or week and a half it'll

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be episode one one five one fifteen one fifteen is there some subtle hidden meaning to that number

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i don't know just dropping bread crumbs man

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