1,319 segments
1917 and the experience of Fatima where most people they portrayed it as a cultural
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or religious event and you looked at it you know from the observations scientifically. Fatima is
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very deep um both in terms of uh testimony i mean there were 80 000 people there you know under the
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last operation um they didn't see the virgin they they saw a disc uh silver thing between them and the
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sun. You showed me a case this morning as something you wanted to talk about and when you showed me the
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image it uh reminded me of a military image that George and I obtained and released to the public
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can you show me or show our audience that image and and why that case is important the photo that
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you said you wanted to talk about? Yes but what they described to me is a very sophisticated
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process by which we may be able to interact with the entities. But so so you're saying you've been
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made aware that there is a government project maybe it was 20 years ago that was able to establish
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direct communication with a non-human intelligence and that you believe this information to be true
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and the and that and and that this is a reality this is what you understand to be true is that correct?
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um i cannot tell yes yes uh it's factual this is weaponized
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this is weaponized i'm george knapp coming to you from las vegas jeremy corbell friend and colleague
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of mine how you doing great man good to see him this is a pretty big day for us here i mean in the
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you know in the long and tortured history of the ufo subject investigations into that mystery as well as
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offshoot phenomena related to ufos that are bizarre and frightening on their own there's there's no more
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singular and more important figure than jacques ballet and you and i have talked about this a lot over
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the years uh he's like at the forefront of so many key moments in history not just ufo history but history
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i mean in other industries and topics as well he he was a pioneer in the development of the internet
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in the development of ai which is huge uh he was there at key moments in the overall investigation of
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ufos both in france where he was trained as an astrophysicist here in the u.s and in cases all
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over the place he was there with jay allen hynek on project blue book in the beginning he became a
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venture capitalist in silicon valley kind of a key place to be he's done breakthrough research with nids
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the organization that was created here in las vegas 30 years ago almost exactly to the day and with bass i
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mean bass the organization that robert bigelow created to handle the contract for the dia and
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this osap program half of the budget for that program was creating a data warehouse and jacques
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designed it created it it is the world's largest ufo data warehouse that we know of anyway 260 000 cases
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you know he's done boots on the ground research in brazil in argentina in france elsewhere in europe and
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central america and south america all over north america as well he's been there at the forefront
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uh of this topic for as long as you know as long as i've known him which is a heck of a long time
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and longer and you know i mean the books that he has written if you have a ufo library at home
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those are the essential books jeremy you've been to my house you know the piles of books i don't even
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know how many there are here in ufos and related subjects certainly more than 10 000 or so
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that valet uh shelf that i've got and the valet books that are scattered all over the place that's
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the that's the core that's the core information um in the entire library he's the deepest thinker
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and probably the best writer on the subject in my estimation in the world so you know getting jacques
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valet on weaponize is something you and i have imagined and have talked about but until today i never
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really was sure we would do it yeah you know as i said in 2019 on the rogan podcast it's jacques
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valet i mean the guy's a legend you know he's been uh involved in this over decades and he has really
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been a changer he's changed things up he shook things up specifically what i mean by that is when
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everybody was talking about the extraterrestrial hypothesis you know he pushed that on its head and
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came up with the interdimensional idea and he and in a lot of ways he's revolutionized the way that
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we look at the ufo phenomenon i've got a few key points of why i thought it'd be great to have him
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on now now look he's very mercurial he's like a jazz musician he'll talk and and you have to like
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listen because he goes yeah he wheezed because his life is so rich he doesn't think about the ufo phenomenon
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in the same way we do and and i think you'll see that in the interview but i was really excited because as a
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friend i've been able to talk with him and correspond and have him to my house a couple times and i
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really got the most insight from that it's just one-on-one dialogue but the reason i wanted to
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have him on today is because a few of the revolutions that he's created in this field is really about um
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when we're looking at the government control he said some very mercurial things over the years for
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example he says that the governments don't control the phenomenon they react to it which is contrary to
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like the conspiratorial assumptions that we all have valet concludes often when you talk with him
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that governments are not orchestrating the phenomenon and that they struggle to even understand it
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themselves he once said intelligence agencies collect data but they do not control the phenomenon
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and they misinterpret it through their own institutional bias so i wanted to talk with him
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because right now there's all this talk that a lot of what we're seeing is black budget uh programs of
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u.s technology look i wish that was true he has definitively proven through his research over the
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decades that this phenomenon is pervasive it's persistent it's unusual that it's got extreme depth and
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it's got a ever-changing uh characteristic to it he said a secret program cannot explain identical
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phenomena reported centuries before aviation across rival nations and in eras with no technological
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infrastructure capable of producing such effects he's told us for decades that this cannot be explained
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with military government craft and that sort of thing so having him on today i think is really
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important especially in the era um that we're in because he sees the real mystery not just being
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the craft themselves but what he calls the interface the human interface he once said jock valet once
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said the most important data may not be what the objects are made of but how they change us and i just
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thought that was such a cool and mercurial way to look at it so this is a jock valet on weaponize a dream
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come true excited to have you jock well dr valet it's jeremy and i've been looking forward to speaking
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to you on weaponize for a long time you and i spoke a few months ago earlier this year but there's always
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so much more to ask i'd like to get your impressions of current events congress so we've had five hearings
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in since 2017 public hearings do you see value in those hearings because it seems like the members of
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congress are frustrated that they're not quite getting what they want and can you reflect on
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your own experience with congress 1968 you were involved in that first hearing um were you hopeful
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back then are you hopeful now that uh congressional investigation might actually lead somewhere
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uh congress uh uh uh in in in in the in the latest hearings well i um i did not participate i was not
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asked to participate in the in the latest hearings i was asked to uh to meet with the um the the experts for
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the intelligence committees you know as an extension of the work i have done with bass and uh in in in
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you know in terms of uh background data that that the committee could use and should know about so i i
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went to washington spent a couple of hours uh with the staffer of the intelligence committee which is a very
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impressive place in washington um i obviously we we went over you know a lot of details and so on so my
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impression is that congress is doing this with a number of people who are knowledgeable
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about the long-term research and they are building some of the database uh that they can use to place the new information
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and i think that's what the the right thing to do is to uh you know to fill to backfill uh
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uh versus the new testimony coming in and uh which is what we see you know what what you george uh you
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know and both of you participated in so uh i'm i'm hopeful that that's um you know i had experience with
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congressional hearings before twice and you know that's sort of funny the the first time was as you know
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i've worked extensively in the early days of the internet and the alpanet and that raised a lot of
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questions for congress about where this was going and what they should be funding the mr kennedy
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uh in those days uh had a uh hearing uh with that involved uh the post office among other things to
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see what the impact and so that was my experience going to washington to testify and to to be part of
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those discussions both uh official and and back you know discussions about the impact that the network if it
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developed would have on the post office and that was very interesting because uh i was there you
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know there were two of us who were considered you know internet experts uh everybody else was with
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different communication companies and the post office and the the consensus was that uh they could
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wait and that the technology would help them and so on uh i had concerns about that because i could see
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how fast the network was going to develop and especially develop in terms of message systems and and
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systems like what we're using now and the you know i approached some of the people there saying
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look uh you know we should we should also consider that first class mail is going to disappear i mean when
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is the last time you put a stamp on a letter on a handwritten letter that you mailed okay and
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uh the answer was look uh one in every worker in the u.s uh one in every 100 workers in the u.s works for the post office
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directly or indirectly so we're not going to raise that question now so the the the message i got from
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that is that is that yes they they know the some of the answers they understand very well what's going
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on but they it has to be balanced with the social reality and you know the uh the bureaucratic reality of
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of the whole country and i i was reminded of that by some of the discussion that you know that you guys
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participated in that uh watching the reaction of the congressman i i think they they they understand
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what's going on but those meetings are not science meetings they are not technology meetings and a lot
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of people want to talk about technology and that's not what congress is about i mean congress is about
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uh adjusting the laws of the country and managing the social reactions to events and uh you know many
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of these people have a background in the role of business not not in mathematics or astronomy so uh that's
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that's that's important to know you know and and to understand the the the problem they have in taking
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the the the the data that you know that that they got from us or from the ufo community and and then
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managing it properly so that you know the community can understand but i always remember that that comment
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about the post office yes of course you are going to lose all first class mail in a few just a few years
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and my point was they should concentrate on packages because people will want to send more packages
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because there will be much more communication and all the first class communication is going to be
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with the software that we're developing which is that's what's actually you know what went on and
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yes today they uh you know the post office manages a lot of packages but most of that business has gone
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to private companies the fedex being the first yeah so they've lost the market they've lost the
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leadership in that market you you see you saw hearings happen in the 60s and george is telling me about
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that with jl and hynek and there's two congressional hearings but now we've had a number of modern day
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hearings with people coming forward do you feel those are valuable do you think these hearings are
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good for the ufo topic for the american public that we're doing that again since the 60s
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well in part uh i think this is backfield because there is a new generation of people discovering ufos on
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the web on you know and they don't know the the depth of the information and who was involved and what was done
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so if you suddenly try to make a decision uh about publication of certain things and so on people
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you know might not understand the context and i think what they are doing which is wise is to expose
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the public to the the the the context of all of that i think when george spoke about russia but the
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documents from russia uh as you know i've been in in contact with in those days i i don't plan to go back
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now but in those days i was in in contact with some of the same people in and the scientists and russia
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was surprisingly open at that point you know at certain times they there were some openings when
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uh you know when i went there there were three different scientific panels looking at ufos from
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different areas and uh so all of that uh needs to be brought up so that people are you know the culture
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is brought in at the same time uh we're still waiting as you said it's been five years we're still
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waiting for the chest the resistance for the for the for the real thing that uh we can uh that that
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that science can look at do you see any any chance any hope that congress would be able to pierce that
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veil of secrecy and find out where the goodies are stored if in fact we have non-human intelligence and
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non-human intelligence and technology is congress the way to go it seems to me there is value in the
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hearings even if members of congress are frustrated because they can't get to that point that the
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keepers of the secrets are never going to give this up not even to congress what do you think
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as as as you know i i was a member of the mids organization of the science board for mids in las vegas
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with mr bigelow uh and and the team uh and then of the bass project which was sponsored by the government
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uh my area of responsibility was uh together with the the team that they recruited was about half of the
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budget okay people have spoken about some of the things that were uh you know some of the investigations
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that were done and so on uh nothing has been said about the data with the database which was really a
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data warehouse that we built um the idea that that i proposed and that i initiated was a three-stage
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process on on the computer we recruited you know about 25 to 30 people who were investigators translators
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we had translators from french spanish portuguese and russian we took a number of databases that i donated
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to the project and a number of others with their own that were brought in and we we built a data warehouse
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of 14 databases communicating among you and that that project uh was going to go into a second
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phase we ended up with 260 000 filtered you know cases for which there was real information out of you
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know all the things that are floating around and in you know in in those several languages and countries
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the the the next phase in the plan was to reduce that to you know need 260 000 cases
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you need maybe 50 000 filtered cases where you maximize the information that you can you can get
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and uh we had uh you know a process of selection we were going to go through and this has been published
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by the way uh in uh in in a couple of books that have come out but you collaborated with uh george your
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name is on on the first one so i'm not you know uh disseminating any great secret but the information
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was is still classified now without that second phase of data reduction and data improvement and cleaning
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the database is useless okay it's uh you can yeah you can put ai on top of it but the ai is going to go
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you know off the road and because you know too much of it is information that looks like it's relevant to ufos
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it may be marching marginally relevant but it's not what you're looking for you know in science and so
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whoever has that now um you know it doesn't know what the plan the real plan was so the plan was a data
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reduction and then two years of ai in other words i was told that you have five years so i said two
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years to for data gathering around the world and translation so that everything is in english
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um and then uh one year of data filtering and improvement and then we'll have two years for ai and
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then we'll get you know we'll drive it to the point where we have the basic answers to the the nature of
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the the data itself at the ground level not just you know pilot data not just some you know astronomical
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pictures and so on but the real data in the field and uh we don't know where that is you know the
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the the the project was cut off um usually as you know i had clearances on other projects at stanford
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research institute working with dr putoff and and his team and so on and uh at the end of the project i
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was debriefed uh and there was a second project with ed may uh and again i was debriefed here i i wasn't
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debriefed so i i called dr putoff i called dr keller they haven't been debriefed either so we don't even
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know what's still classified and what's not classified so i'm treating essentially every everything we did
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including the data as no as classified and i respect that but there is a deeper problem here that in um
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in in the military area uh you you need if you're developing if we're developing a new rocket it it needs
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to be classified um at least throughout the development project uh when you start testing it people will
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understand that there is a new technology but that all you need is you know you're going to call two of
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your friends who are experts in propulsion and one who is expert in optics and one who is expert in
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electronics and you know six or seven people and you can keep the secret and you'll be funded to
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develop that particular you know that particular weapon or that particular uh instrument that's not
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true with ufos i mean the information is in the mind of the farmer i'm going to meet somewhere you know in
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kansas and as you know i've spent a lot of my time going to uh to to meet people at their farm or in their
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their house and gathering that kind of information it's not what congress is looking at they are looking
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at pictures from you know fighter craft you know fighter planes and satellites and and all that and
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they are looking at mainly at the military because there is this idea that the phenomena may be a threat
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which is a valuable you know idea to to look at but that's not all i mean in many of the cases i have
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that um that amart published uh the thing was not a threat it was it was minding its own business
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you know it appears and it's not something you're going to track out of space with a telescope
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it appears as a point of light and people are intrigued by the point of light and then it expands
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you know into you know an area of light and then out of that emerges something that looks like a craft
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and then it lands uh it may be 40 feet in in diameter and it makes an impact on the ground
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i mean the case in valenso is a perfect case it you know and so you can you can analyze with soil
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we've done all of that but it's not something you can track that anybody can track with a telescope
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and uh in the the case in valenso there is a very good movie now about valenso
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the um when i i met with with the witness spent three days there with with the witness and it took us
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to the place and i said well you know how did it go away and he said well it it lifted and then it
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went off at an angle and then it vanished and i said well do you mean it vanished by just accelerating
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i said no it just wasn't there anymore okay so and i have a number of cases like that that have
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that the people did not want to publish uh so i've i've kept them uh but very well described and
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very well you know i'm in silicon valley so people have been in silicon valley for 40 years uh i funded
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about 70 companies with my you know with my friends for a number of funds uh within that community people
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know me pretty well so i've had a number of ceos coming to me saying you know you know we have a
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a house on the coast and me and my family you know we've seen something and uh and i say well can i can
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i uh publish it can i put it that he said no you know i'm the i'm running a company and uh people cannot
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you know you know people on wall street have to know that i'm i'm a serious guy and i run into that
[0:27:56 - 0:28:05] ▶
situation all the time so congress does not have that information they may have it from other people
[0:28:05 - 0:28:14] ▶
they may have that kind of information but so far they've only concentrated on on the the armed forces
[0:28:14 - 0:28:23] ▶
because again the the motivation is in order to to get um you know funding for anything the the best
[0:28:23 - 0:28:35] ▶
way to do it is to say this is a potential threat now in the rest of the world people are not treating
[0:28:36 - 0:28:43] ▶
it as a threat you know the the russians never thought it was a threat i mean you you and their george uh
[0:28:43 - 0:28:50] ▶
they they their attitude certainly the scientists have spoken to was uh you know this is a fascinating
[0:28:50 - 0:28:58] ▶
phenomenon and we should study it because we're going to learn something important about physics and
[0:28:58 - 0:29:05] ▶
um there is no none of that filter that that we we have here the same thing in france um you know the
[0:29:06 - 0:29:18] ▶
the official group studying it is uh the french science agency that's been you know since the days of
[0:29:18 - 0:29:28] ▶
claude porer in the late in the early 70s you know has been consistently just uh taking reports from the
[0:29:28 - 0:29:40] ▶
from the public and uh sending people there to do analysis and so on and you know i've worked i've been
[0:29:40 - 0:29:48] ▶
working with them on enough for a number of years uh and uh that's not considered necessarily as a threat
[0:29:48 - 0:29:58] ▶
or as a as a military subject the military is obviously interested uh interested in the potential
[0:29:58 - 0:30:07] ▶
technologies that could derive from it but the the the public is still seeing it as um you know more
[0:30:07 - 0:30:17] ▶
like an extension of science fiction you know wouldn't it be nice to know what else is in the universe
[0:30:17 - 0:30:25] ▶
yeah um jock i got a question for for 50 years you've been looking at this problem
[0:30:27 - 0:30:33] ▶
problem not just as technological but also as cultural a lot of your writing is about that and
[0:30:33 - 0:30:40] ▶
i want to talk about that but a lot of people like me we get introduced to this through the nuts and
[0:30:40 - 0:30:46] ▶
bolts the the technology there's rumors that the united states government has been able to reverse
[0:30:46 - 0:30:52] ▶
engineer what we call ufos do you have any personal knowledge if we've made any headway you say as a
[0:30:52 - 0:30:59] ▶
scientist as a scientist you say it's important that we can look at this to be able to reverse engineer
[0:30:59 - 0:31:05] ▶
it that's what a scientist would want to do have we been successful has the united states do do we
[0:31:05 - 0:31:10] ▶
have craft that traverse the cosmos because we've reverse engineered them from ufos or is that mythology
[0:31:10 - 0:31:17] ▶
as far as you're concerned the the investment community the venture capital community
[0:31:17 - 0:31:25] ▶
in california is is a sophisticated community and it has its own way of keeping secrets and exchanging
[0:31:25 - 0:31:35] ▶
secrets because the secret that you keep is is pretty useless in business you know you're
[0:31:35 - 0:31:42] ▶
at the end of the day you have to be able to sell something that people like uh or won't and uh so
[0:31:44 - 0:31:52] ▶
uh there is a network and you know someone you know who used to be with the cia for a long time
[0:31:52 - 0:32:02] ▶
told me you know don't think that we have these great secrets first in washington uh we we find a
[0:32:02 - 0:32:09] ▶
technology when we come to san jose uh that could be applicable to something we do and then we you know we
[0:32:09 - 0:32:20] ▶
we we use it we take it we use it we may classify some applications of it but uh you guys have been
[0:32:20 - 0:32:28] ▶
working on it you know openly for two years and there may even so there is even the curve that uh people
[0:32:28 - 0:32:37] ▶
look at of of patents you know you have patents one two and three about the new technology and then all of a
[0:32:37 - 0:32:46] ▶
sudden nothing is published for 10 years and then some product comes out that everybody thinks is
[0:32:46 - 0:32:56] ▶
extraordinary well what happened during those 10 years when nothing was published and there are a
[0:32:56 - 0:33:02] ▶
number of areas in science like that that you can look at it's very interesting well for 10 years it was
[0:33:02 - 0:33:10] ▶
classified it was then you know in some lab somewhere maybe at los salamons maybe at uh battelle maybe it
[0:33:10 - 0:33:20] ▶
and they developed it into something that could be a product either a product for a computer you're going
[0:33:20 - 0:33:28] ▶
to buy i mean it's uh or it could be uh it could be a product that will go into a new weapon system so
[0:33:28 - 0:33:37] ▶
you know if in silicon valley if if you're trusted they you know people don't sign special contracts or
[0:33:37 - 0:33:49] ▶
secrecy things and so on but if if uh if you're told something which is sensitive and you don't keep it to
[0:33:49 - 0:34:02] ▶
yourself or you don't then you can't be trusted and you're not going to you know it's like hollywood
[0:34:02 - 0:34:11] ▶
you know you're not you're not going to go eat lunch in san jose you know next year and that's the way
[0:34:11 - 0:34:21] ▶
the system works it works on trust and people think silicon valley is all new stuff it's not new stuff it
[0:34:21 - 0:34:29] ▶
goes way back you know it goes back to actually before world war ii so those those relationships
[0:34:29 - 0:34:37] ▶
of trust are very deep and people talk about ufos within those relationships i'm just asking you
[0:34:37 - 0:34:45] ▶
have we reverse engineered technology from non-human intelligence do you have knowledge of that have we
[0:34:45 - 0:34:52] ▶
done that so you know i i wanted to get back to that if if we had there are there would be signs that
[0:34:52 - 0:35:02] ▶
would be visible you know certainly in silicon valley and in other places
[0:35:03 - 0:35:10] ▶
there there there there would be repercussions you would see um um and you know that's one of uh
[0:35:10 - 0:35:23] ▶
you know if you read espionage novels i mean that's a typical thing uh of of claiming that you know
[0:35:25 - 0:35:33] ▶
something to elicit information from witnesses or from other people or agents or and uh there are a
[0:35:33 - 0:35:45] ▶
number of things that have intrigued me that the in in documents that we've looked at you know within
[0:35:45 - 0:35:53] ▶
neds and mass we've looked at the number of quote official documents that had very surprising thing you
[0:35:53 - 0:36:02] ▶
know uh the mj-12 documents massive and they contain a lot of that where we can trace historically to
[0:36:02 - 0:36:13] ▶
an authentic document somewhere and then along the way somebody talks about flying saucers
[0:36:13 - 0:36:20] ▶
and where did that come from so did general heisenhower who was he briefed about flying saucers
[0:36:21 - 0:36:29] ▶
and you know and so you have all these rumors and someone you know explained to me that if you suspect
[0:36:29 - 0:36:39] ▶
that there is someone within an organization who is uh an agent from the for the foreign power and you want
[0:36:39 - 0:36:50] ▶
to know who the same you know a scientist at los alamos who's in a classified project uh
[0:36:50 - 0:36:59] ▶
you want to know if he's likely to leak information somewhere you can plant a document that comes to
[0:36:59 - 0:37:10] ▶
his knowledge that has a number of keywords and then you have somebody in czechoslovakia who looks at
[0:37:10 - 0:37:18] ▶
what comes in within a particular group or particular office and if you see that keyword coming up then you can
[0:37:18 - 0:37:29] ▶
you have two two parts of the link uh you know i've never been trained to learn about those things but
[0:37:29 - 0:37:37] ▶
those are tricks that and we know you know i'm not going to use any names but we know people within the ufo
[0:37:37 - 0:37:46] ▶
community who were tasked to work with researchers and so on to help do exactly that get documents and
[0:37:46 - 0:37:56] ▶
SOP them i was told by a member of the academy of sciences who had worked on ufo's
[0:37:56 - 0:38:07] ▶
i i asked him about the way the database from bass had vanished essentially
[0:38:09 - 0:38:18] ▶
and he said well you know it may be reborn somewhere
[0:38:18 - 0:38:27] ▶
in a salted state and i asked what he meant because i had never understood i had never heard
[0:38:30 - 0:38:40] ▶
that concatenation of words and he said well you know you you take data and you want to know who
[0:38:40 - 0:38:49] ▶
is going to use it so you you you change the data and then you you alter the data you destroy the data
[0:38:49 - 0:38:58] ▶
so that if it shows up somewhere you know um you know how it was how it was leaked or how it was used
[0:38:59 - 0:39:07] ▶
and that um you know i don't know about those techniques i've never been trained in in that
[0:39:07 - 0:39:17] ▶
that kind of uh you know that kind of skill and uh of course that would explain why scientists don't
[0:39:17 - 0:39:26] ▶
want to get into this business because this is not the way science is done you know if i if as you know
[0:39:26 - 0:39:33] ▶
i i've turned over all my samples to dr nolan at stanford uh so that we can continue to do the
[0:39:33 - 0:39:44] ▶
investigations together about those cases we've started to publish as you know in the number one
[0:39:44 - 0:39:51] ▶
aerospace journal about the analysis of some of those cases and uh you know it's all
[0:39:51 - 0:39:59] ▶
uh cases where i have verified their history i verified the you know where they came from and how they
[0:39:59 - 0:40:08] ▶
were acquired to the best of my ability and he knows that okay and he can he knows he can trust that
[0:40:08 - 0:40:16] ▶
uh of course you know we're we may discover something in the analysis that tells us more about
[0:40:16 - 0:40:25] ▶
uh where it may have occurred naturally or whatever that doesn't mean that all of it is valid you know
[0:40:25 - 0:40:34] ▶
ufo data but uh at least the the data is clean to this level uh he knows i'm not salting the you know the
[0:40:34 - 0:40:46] ▶
stones or the data you know uh and uh that's the way you do science you know if if those games are being
[0:40:46 - 0:40:56] ▶
played as they seem to have been played with the bass project in las vegas then the data is useless
[0:40:56 - 0:41:06] ▶
which means we have to start from the beginning but george you know it's been 14 years since the end of
[0:41:06 - 0:41:14] ▶
the bass project 14 years during which that database of 260 000 cases has disappeared now suppose that
[0:41:14 - 0:41:27] ▶
somebody has a database and they may be very good people somewhere in a classified project and they
[0:41:27 - 0:41:33] ▶
want to use it how you know in 14 years many of those witnesses have died they've moved you can't find
[0:41:33 - 0:41:42] ▶
them anymore you know how are you going to validate the data because then there are there are cases where
[0:41:42 - 0:41:49] ▶
you need to go back and find additional witnesses you know from that area well all that is gone so
[0:41:49 - 0:41:58] ▶
if somebody wanted to essentially derail the study we were doing that would have been the way to do it
[0:41:59 - 0:42:08] ▶
okay even if you went to a new group of scientists they didn't have the the internal plan for the uh how
[0:42:08 - 0:42:18] ▶
the ai was going to be applied to the project so what i'm doing is you know i have all the data
[0:42:18 - 0:42:24] ▶
uh it's not as good as of course as what bass had done that i have the original data that i had
[0:42:25 - 0:42:34] ▶
donated to the project but i have the right to use it and then a lot of it is actually public data
[0:42:34 - 0:42:41] ▶
but um you know i i spent as you know a lot of years uh compiling it and reducing it to the right
[0:42:42 - 0:42:52] ▶
format so i've restarted to work on it but to work on it by myself now fortunately you know computers now
[0:42:52 - 0:43:01] ▶
are much more capable and they are they have primitive ai and you know my phd was in ai from
[0:43:01 - 0:43:09] ▶
the days of dr hynek so uh i i understand what you can what you can do with hard physical data
[0:43:09 - 0:43:17] ▶
uh and i'm i'm doing it on my own now uh just out of curiosity for the the years that i may
[0:43:18 - 0:43:28] ▶
uh i i may still have and uh i'm i'm going to um start publishing some results from from that you
[0:43:28 - 0:43:39] ▶
know as time goes on the first one was the uh the presentation i made at saw you know a few weeks ago
[0:43:39 - 0:43:48] ▶
in italy uh about that uh that case which is actually in um you know in in the in the report from
[0:43:48 - 0:43:59] ▶
uh from the condon report uh that nobody has noticed because it's in in the appendix of the
[0:44:00 - 0:44:07] ▶
condon report and everybody threw that out because they thought there was nothing there well um this is
[0:44:07 - 0:44:16] ▶
a case that's unidentified after extensive study by the condon committee both the physicists and the
[0:44:16 - 0:44:24] ▶
social science guys um with um with analysis with uh infrared photographs from aircraft at night and so
[0:44:24 - 0:44:36] ▶
on over that forest and um and i have the wood you know i still have it not not here it's a safe place
[0:44:36 - 0:44:45] ▶
but i i have the wood that was impacted by the radiation from that object which was an object in the
[0:44:46 - 0:44:54] ▶
forest the the witness was a nuclear physicist so i put him in touch with condon dr heinic and i were
[0:44:54 - 0:45:04] ▶
the first scientists who were called to testify you know in in boulder before the condon committee
[0:45:04 - 0:45:12] ▶
to brief them on the history of all that and um i'm going to continue that that study we want to get the
[0:45:12 - 0:45:23] ▶
uh get the data from the wood the the data we've uh we've looked at it in france and we published that
[0:45:23 - 0:45:31] ▶
that paper with my my french uh physics uh colleagues and uh it was taken to saclay in france which is the
[0:45:31 - 0:45:42] ▶
main atomic research facility and we think that within the wood there are layers of radiation intensity
[0:45:42 - 0:45:52] ▶
that the the the witness saw the object pulsating and the the calculations on the energy would give
[0:45:52 - 0:46:01] ▶
you something equivalent to the energy of the reactor at diablo canyon
[0:46:01 - 0:46:06] ▶
in a sort of ball of light in a clearing in a pine forest.
[0:46:06 - 0:46:17] ▶
At night, when it was raining, temperature was close to zero, I mean to freezing,
[0:46:18 - 0:46:24] ▶
and the thing was pulsating, but it was no more than two or three meters in diameter.
[0:46:25 - 0:46:31] ▶
The witness being a nuclear physicist, young professor at a local university,
[0:46:31 - 0:46:39] ▶
got the hell out of there.
[0:46:39 - 0:46:43] ▶
He was just driving home with his family, and all that was published in the Condon Report.
[0:46:43 - 0:46:50] ▶
No, not all of that, because they continued to do the research afterwards.
[0:46:50 - 0:46:56] ▶
They took wood from the trees that had been burned, but it's not a burn, it's a radiation impact.
[0:46:56 - 0:47:07] ▶
So they took the bark from the intact part of the tree, and they sent it to the government's radiation expertise lab
[0:47:07 - 0:47:22] ▶
that returned it with no comment.
[0:47:22 - 0:47:25] ▶
They obviously had looked at it and didn't want to be involved.
[0:47:25 - 0:47:30] ▶
So I called the witnesses and I said, can I have it?
[0:47:31 - 0:47:35] ▶
This was a few years after the sighting, and they said, sure.
[0:47:35 - 0:47:40] ▶
So they sent it to me, and I've kept it ever since.
[0:47:40 - 0:47:46] ▶
So we have the report from the witness who had computed the energy,
[0:47:47 - 0:47:54] ▶
and Dr. Condon recomputed the energy and found twice as much from the actual distances and so on,
[0:47:54 - 0:48:03] ▶
after they had done, that's in the Condon report.
[0:48:03 - 0:48:07] ▶
And again, that's a case that's not, that ufologists have never talked about.
[0:48:08 - 0:48:15] ▶
So I have all the data, so I'm going to continue working on it,
[0:48:16 - 0:48:21] ▶
and I really don't need anybody else.
[0:48:21 - 0:48:23] ▶
I mean, I don't need, you know, a big group.
[0:48:23 - 0:48:27] ▶
I don't need funding.
[0:48:27 - 0:48:29] ▶
I don't need anything.
[0:48:29 - 0:48:30] ▶
I can just go ahead with my friends and do that.
[0:48:30 - 0:48:33] ▶
You wrote a book about a crash at Trinity, 1945.
[0:48:35 - 0:48:39] ▶
They didn't just take it to the dump and cover it with dirt.
[0:48:42 - 0:48:45] ▶
Where is that object?
[0:48:45 - 0:48:47] ▶
Hangar 18? Where do they keep it?
[0:48:47 - 0:48:49] ▶
And in the same vein, I mean,
[0:48:49 - 0:48:51] ▶
it was taken to Los Alamos, which is a logical place to take it.
[0:48:52 - 0:48:56] ▶
The book when it first came out was, you know, book Trinity,
[0:48:56 - 0:49:03] ▶
was with Paola Harris, who had done four years of investigation before I got involved,
[0:49:03 - 0:49:12] ▶
which is valuable because at that time, both of the witnesses were alive.
[0:49:12 - 0:49:18] ▶
By the time I got involved, Remy had died.
[0:49:18 - 0:49:21] ▶
But, you know, one witness is still, you know, very much alive.
[0:49:21 - 0:49:29] ▶
And, you know, the book was criticized with some flaws in my, you know, I mean,
[0:49:29 - 0:49:39] ▶
it's my fault not digging fast enough or deep enough into the actual documents.
[0:49:39 - 0:49:49] ▶
A critic, you know, a good critic, a good skeptic, there are good skeptics,
[0:49:51 - 0:49:56] ▶
the ones who actually do the work, went and got a number of documents
[0:49:56 - 0:50:01] ▶
that showed that there were some inaccuracies in what I had published.
[0:50:01 - 0:50:08] ▶
And now that happens in science.
[0:50:09 - 0:50:10] ▶
I mean, it happened to Einstein.
[0:50:11 - 0:50:12] ▶
So, you know, I'm not going to apologize too much for that, but I did go back.
[0:50:12 - 0:50:17] ▶
And now we have four more years of research on it.
[0:50:18 - 0:50:21] ▶
And we have verified, you know, all the information we could.
[0:50:21 - 0:50:27] ▶
There are two cases where he's right about the actual name of the policeman who was there
[0:50:27 - 0:50:35] ▶
was not the name that the witness remembered.
[0:50:35 - 0:50:39] ▶
Well, the witness is a little bit older than I am.
[0:50:40 - 0:50:43] ▶
And, you know, memory plays games.
[0:50:43 - 0:50:47] ▶
But he was there with another policeman.
[0:50:48 - 0:50:51] ▶
And, you know, little by little, we've done all that.
[0:50:51 - 0:50:56] ▶
So we've republished the book now with a lot more information that answers all those questions.
[0:50:56 - 0:51:04] ▶
But after 80 years, the government has not acknowledged that as being real.
[0:51:04 - 0:51:08] ▶
It doesn't tell us where that is.
[0:51:09 - 0:51:11] ▶
I think about Steven Spielberg, his magnificent film Close Encounters.
[0:51:11 - 0:51:16] ▶
La Combe, the character based on you, arranges this meeting with aliens.
[0:51:16 - 0:51:22] ▶
If that event happened today, I don't believe the public would ever hear about it, just as
[0:51:22 - 0:51:28] ▶
we have not heard about the object that crashed at Trinity for 80 years.
[0:51:28 - 0:51:32] ▶
Can you address the idea of secrecy?
[0:51:32 - 0:51:36] ▶
Whether some level of secrecy is necessary?
[0:51:36 - 0:51:39] ▶
And are we ever going to learn, you know, the physical objects are real, that the government's
[0:51:39 - 0:51:47] ▶
been stashing them away?
[0:51:47 - 0:51:48] ▶
And no matter how many times Congress asks questions or holds hearings, they're not going
[0:51:48 - 0:51:55] ▶
Well, some of them are real.
[0:51:57 - 0:52:02] ▶
And, you know, I respect the research that has been done by the, you know, Muform and
[0:52:02 - 0:52:10] ▶
Cufas and APRO especially and so on.
[0:52:10 - 0:52:13] ▶
They've gone to the site, they've interviewed the people, they've seen the traces.
[0:52:13 - 0:52:18] ▶
I've done some of that, you know, with colleagues.
[0:52:20 - 0:52:27] ▶
The recently, you know, well, you can still go to the site.
[0:52:31 - 0:52:38] ▶
Some, enough of the witnesses are still alive that you can get your own data.
[0:52:38 - 0:52:43] ▶
And make up your own, you know, your own decision about that.
[0:52:43 - 0:52:47] ▶
But, um, I think a number of those cases are fake or they were, that doesn't mean that there
[0:52:47 - 0:52:57] ▶
wasn't an official report that there had been a UFO, but, um, you know, I, I remember that
[0:52:57 - 0:53:06] ▶
Hynek, you know, that there are cases, that there are cases in the Blue Book Fives that are
[0:53:08 - 0:53:15] ▶
unidentified and classified.
[0:53:15 - 0:53:17] ▶
Most of the Blue Book Fives were unclassified from the beginning.
[0:53:19 - 0:53:23] ▶
That was the whole point, was to reassure the public.
[0:53:24 - 0:53:27] ▶
No scientist bothered to look at them except Hynek and me and Dr.
[0:53:27 - 0:53:35] ▶
But in, in those, in those cases, you know, the classified cases, you know, I asked Dr.
[0:53:38 - 0:53:48] ▶
Hynek, well, you know, when, why is this particular case classified?
[0:53:48 - 0:53:53] ▶
Don't tell me if it's really, if there is something really secret, but, and he laughed.
[0:53:53 - 0:53:58] ▶
He said, well, you know, this is in the very early days, this woman in Alaska saw a light in the sky.
[0:53:59 - 0:54:08] ▶
That was a big light at sunset that was flying.
[0:54:09 - 0:54:15] ▶
And it was flying from east to west over Alaska.
[0:54:15 - 0:54:23] ▶
Well, you know, what would be flying from east to west at very high altitude over Alaska in the fifties?
[0:54:25 - 0:54:33] ▶
Well, it would be an early U-2.
[0:54:34 - 0:54:36] ▶
The Air Force knew that.
[0:54:38 - 0:54:39] ▶
It was reported as a UFO.
[0:54:41 - 0:54:43] ▶
So they, you know, they, they labeled it as unidentified UFO and they, you know, kept it as classified.
[0:54:43 - 0:54:56] ▶
So if you look at the file now, if somebody, you know, innocently goes back to the file, which are still there, they find this classified case, which by now has been declassified.
[0:54:57 - 0:55:09] ▶
declassified and they find this, this UFO over Alaska, they are, you know, they are going to be very intrigued.
[0:55:09 - 0:55:18] ▶
If they don't know the backstory.
[0:55:18 - 0:55:20] ▶
That, you know, this woman innocently had detected, you know, a secret CIA aircraft.
[0:55:21 - 0:55:29] ▶
And of course it's unidentified.
[0:55:29 - 0:55:31] ▶
So you have to get into the details.
[0:55:31 - 0:55:38] ▶
You have to do the, you have to do the, the homework, you know, as, as you guys have done.
[0:55:38 - 0:55:44] ▶
And, uh, that's, that's how you get to the, to the truth instead of, you know, going off on a tangent somewhere.
[0:55:44 - 0:55:52] ▶
But it, you know, it takes time and it, you, you need to have.
[0:55:54 - 0:55:57] ▶
The trust and it's all about trust.
[0:55:57 - 0:56:02] ▶
The fact that the, um, that there is something unique somewhere.
[0:56:03 - 0:56:09] ▶
Doesn't really, you, you have to, you cannot base it on secrecy because sooner or later, somebody is going to sell it to somebody.
[0:56:10 - 0:56:20] ▶
I mean, you know, too many spies in Washington and so on, they, you know, that again, that information will be sorted and changed and used.
[0:56:20 - 0:56:30] ▶
And that, that world is, that's not a world where you can do science.
[0:56:31 - 0:56:38] ▶
It's not a world where you can advance knowledge.
[0:56:38 - 0:56:41] ▶
Knowledge is based on trust.
[0:56:41 - 0:56:43] ▶
if you want to build something that really changes the world, it's not by spreading misinformation around or making, making little secrets look like big secrets because, uh, sooner or later you'll be caught.
[0:56:48 - 0:57:07] ▶
I mean, that's not the way to do it.
[0:57:07 - 0:57:09] ▶
Um, I think that in this, again, there is a place for secrecy that I respect.
[0:57:10 - 0:57:17] ▶
There is a place for classification of, of certain things that I respect and I've always followed.
[0:57:17 - 0:57:24] ▶
Um, but this is too big.
[0:57:25 - 0:57:29] ▶
I mean, it involves too many countries.
[0:57:29 - 0:57:31] ▶
It involves, if, if we keep secrets, the French are going to keep secrets.
[0:57:31 - 0:57:35] ▶
The Russians certainly are going to keep secrets and the Chinese even more.
[0:57:37 - 0:57:41] ▶
And then where do we go?
[0:57:41 - 0:57:43] ▶
I mean, everybody has part of the information.
[0:57:43 - 0:57:46] ▶
So Jacques, I wanted to talk with you a little bit about, uh, these days, a lot of people are saying that the UAP we're seeing are reverse engineered black projects.
[0:57:52 - 0:58:02] ▶
I gather from your answer that you don't think we've made a lot of progress with reverse engineering, the technology.
[0:58:02 - 0:58:10] ▶
Over the last 50 years, you've been studying this, but more importantly, you say, this is not a modern phenomenon that it crosses all cultures and all time that the UFO phenomenon is persistent global and adaptive.
[0:58:10 - 0:58:24] ▶
That's something you talk about.
[0:58:24 - 0:58:25] ▶
That's something you talk about.
[0:58:25 - 0:58:26] ▶
And you've really, you've really, um, proven that case by going back into antiquity in a couple of your books and talking about how people are seeing the same things back then that they're seeing now.
[0:58:26 - 0:58:40] ▶
One of those cases that you wrote about, and I wanted just to hear about it from you is 1917 and the experience of Fatima, where most people, they portrayed it as a cultural or religious event.
[0:58:41 - 0:58:53] ▶
And you looked at it, you know, from the observations scientifically.
[0:58:53 - 0:58:57] ▶
Can you tell me how cases like Fatima in 1917, how they relate to the modern day UFO thing explained to us what happened in Fatima?
[0:58:57 - 0:59:08] ▶
Um, how much time do we have?
[0:59:08 - 0:59:13] ▶
Fatima is very deep, um, both in terms of, uh, testimony.
[0:59:13 - 0:59:21] ▶
I mean, there were 80,000 people there, you know, on the last apparition.
[0:59:21 - 0:59:27] ▶
Um, they didn't see the Virgin.
[0:59:27 - 0:59:31] ▶
They, they saw a disc, uh, silver thing between them and the sun.
[0:59:31 - 0:59:39] ▶
Um, and, uh, everything dried up.
[0:59:39 - 0:59:45] ▶
They had, it had been raining and everything dried up very quickly.
[0:59:45 - 0:59:49] ▶
Uh, which was surprising.
[0:59:49 - 0:59:52] ▶
And the, the social environment was, was remarkable.
[0:59:52 - 0:59:58] ▶
It was really remarkable.
[0:59:58 - 1:00:00] ▶
The, it, it started by three shepherds, uh, seeing just a ball of light.
[1:00:00 - 1:00:10] ▶
And, uh, then messages coming from an entity in that ball of light.
[1:00:10 - 1:00:18] ▶
Our family fell apart a lot of light, primarily to one of them, Lucia, who was, these were kids.
[1:00:18 - 1:00:25] ▶
I mean, they were 10, 12, 13, uh, just guarding the sheep.
[1:00:25 - 1:00:33] ▶
It's a scenario with fairly poor vegetation,
[1:00:33 - 1:00:38] ▶
but they do have agriculture and sheep and goats.
[1:00:39 - 1:00:44] ▶
That's the setting where it took place.
[1:00:47 - 1:00:49] ▶
I went there with my wife
[1:00:51 - 1:00:54] ▶
and saw the basilica that has been built there.
[1:00:54 - 1:00:59] ▶
And also saw the area that really hasn't changed very much
[1:00:59 - 1:01:04] ▶
in terms of the vegetation and so on.
[1:01:06 - 1:01:08] ▶
And by coincidence, it was also a day
[1:01:10 - 1:01:13] ▶
where there was alternate rain and sunshine.
[1:01:13 - 1:01:18] ▶
So first they saw this,
[1:01:26 - 1:01:29] ▶
and then they had a number of meetings every month
[1:01:29 - 1:01:33] ▶
on the same day of the month.
[1:01:33 - 1:01:35] ▶
But some months are 30 days, some are 31 days.
[1:01:37 - 1:01:42] ▶
Well, it was always the same day.
[1:01:43 - 1:01:45] ▶
So whatever that phenomenon is,
[1:01:45 - 1:01:48] ▶
it has the same calendar we do,
[1:01:48 - 1:01:51] ▶
which is, again, one of those things you hit.
[1:01:51 - 1:01:57] ▶
You know, why would that be?
[1:01:57 - 1:02:00] ▶
Which, of course, made people suspicious of the authorities.
[1:02:00 - 1:02:05] ▶
It came to a point where more and more people were going there
[1:02:08 - 1:02:11] ▶
and the authorities were concerned
[1:02:11 - 1:02:13] ▶
because people say, well, Portugal, you know,
[1:02:13 - 1:02:17] ▶
that this is a super Catholic country.
[1:02:17 - 1:02:20] ▶
they believe in all those miracles.
[1:02:20 - 1:02:22] ▶
Well, the government in Portugal at the time in 1917 was socialist.
[1:02:22 - 1:02:28] ▶
They were not believers.
[1:02:30 - 1:02:32] ▶
They were not Christians.
[1:02:32 - 1:02:33] ▶
They were rather with, you know, more the Leninist,
[1:02:34 - 1:02:40] ▶
you know, current in all of Europe and so on.
[1:02:41 - 1:02:44] ▶
Of course, 1917 is the time of the Russian Revolution.
[1:02:44 - 1:02:51] ▶
So you have that coincidence of different things.
[1:02:52 - 1:02:55] ▶
They tried to prevent people from going back to the place
[1:02:56 - 1:03:00] ▶
and that didn't work.
[1:03:01 - 1:03:02] ▶
At the last predicted
[1:03:02 - 1:03:05] ▶
there were so many thousand people
[1:03:09 - 1:03:11] ▶
coming from all over Portugal
[1:03:12 - 1:03:14] ▶
carrying food and so on
[1:03:18 - 1:03:20] ▶
for the travel and, you know, entire families.
[1:03:20 - 1:03:24] ▶
And they were there.
[1:03:24 - 1:03:25] ▶
And that's what the photographs show.
[1:03:26 - 1:03:27] ▶
They show this large crowd at the site.
[1:03:28 - 1:03:31] ▶
And then at the indicated time,
[1:03:31 - 1:03:34] ▶
by a disk you could look at
[1:03:37 - 1:03:40] ▶
without being blinded,
[1:03:41 - 1:03:42] ▶
they were rotating beams of color
[1:03:45 - 1:03:48] ▶
I have ten books about Fatim Mabek
[1:03:59 - 1:04:02] ▶
were mostly written by experts
[1:04:02 - 1:04:05] ▶
who had interviewed the people.
[1:04:11 - 1:04:13] ▶
There were two scientists there
[1:04:19 - 1:04:20] ▶
who described what they saw
[1:04:20 - 1:04:22] ▶
as everybody was kneeling around,
[1:04:22 - 1:04:28] ▶
when these beams were going.
[1:04:30 - 1:04:33] ▶
They described it as collimated beams,
[1:04:33 - 1:04:38] ▶
a perfect physical description
[1:04:41 - 1:04:43] ▶
this is in the language of,
[1:04:47 - 1:04:49] ▶
a physics professor.
[1:04:50 - 1:04:52] ▶
So they were not believers.
[1:04:52 - 1:04:56] ▶
They were just describing
[1:04:56 - 1:04:57] ▶
an actual phenomenon.
[1:04:57 - 1:04:59] ▶
who was not interested
[1:05:02 - 1:05:04] ▶
He was working in the fields
[1:05:05 - 1:05:07] ▶
a couple of miles away.
[1:05:07 - 1:05:09] ▶
was still in the sky
[1:05:10 - 1:05:13] ▶
between the sun and the crowd
[1:05:14 - 1:05:17] ▶
and he testified to that.
[1:05:17 - 1:05:20] ▶
there were no photographs
[1:05:21 - 1:05:22] ▶
that could capture that.
[1:05:26 - 1:05:28] ▶
There are photographs
[1:05:28 - 1:05:29] ▶
but not of the phenomenon
[1:05:30 - 1:05:32] ▶
itself, unfortunately.
[1:05:32 - 1:05:34] ▶
I've worked with him
[1:05:43 - 1:05:44] ▶
We disagreed about Fatima
[1:05:46 - 1:05:49] ▶
and he said that Fatima
[1:05:49 - 1:05:51] ▶
in the eyes of people
[1:05:53 - 1:05:55] ▶
from staring at the sun.
[1:05:55 - 1:05:58] ▶
because of the atmosphere
[1:05:58 - 1:05:59] ▶
Well, when I was there,
[1:06:01 - 1:06:03] ▶
it had just been raining.
[1:06:03 - 1:06:05] ▶
There was a lot of water vapor
[1:06:05 - 1:06:07] ▶
I was there with my wife
[1:06:08 - 1:06:09] ▶
and I stared at the sun
[1:06:09 - 1:06:11] ▶
a little bit too long
[1:06:11 - 1:06:13] ▶
and I didn't have rotating beams,
[1:06:13 - 1:06:17] ▶
but I obviously saw colors
[1:06:17 - 1:06:20] ▶
it saturated my retina.
[1:06:22 - 1:06:27] ▶
So I didn't stare at it,
[1:06:27 - 1:06:30] ▶
But I could understand
[1:06:31 - 1:06:33] ▶
and it could have done that.
[1:06:40 - 1:06:44] ▶
So I don't know where I stand
[1:06:44 - 1:06:48] ▶
but I got more books.
[1:06:49 - 1:06:57] ▶
about the miracle of 1915,
[1:07:00 - 1:07:03] ▶
in the same conditions,
[1:07:14 - 1:07:15] ▶
including one of those
[1:07:15 - 1:07:18] ▶
saw a globe of light,
[1:07:25 - 1:07:27] ▶
that came to the prairie,
[1:07:30 - 1:07:32] ▶
And out of that globe of light
[1:07:35 - 1:07:38] ▶
stepped a human angel.
[1:07:38 - 1:07:46] ▶
They perceived it as an angel.
[1:07:46 - 1:07:48] ▶
Gave them the feeling
[1:07:48 - 1:07:50] ▶
that he was an angel
[1:07:50 - 1:07:52] ▶
and he taught them a prayer.
[1:07:52 - 1:07:54] ▶
And he said they should keep praying
[1:07:54 - 1:07:58] ▶
that particular prayer.
[1:07:58 - 1:08:00] ▶
they would go into a cave
[1:08:03 - 1:08:05] ▶
the sheep didn't care.
[1:08:07 - 1:08:09] ▶
they wouldn't lose them.
[1:08:11 - 1:08:13] ▶
And they went into that cave
[1:08:13 - 1:08:14] ▶
and they were praying
[1:08:14 - 1:08:15] ▶
and going into sort of
[1:08:16 - 1:08:18] ▶
And they reported that
[1:08:21 - 1:08:23] ▶
and there were no other witnesses.
[1:08:26 - 1:08:27] ▶
And I find that interesting
[1:08:30 - 1:08:31] ▶
in those prominent UFO cases
[1:08:32 - 1:08:36] ▶
is ask what happened before.
[1:08:37 - 1:08:40] ▶
the miracle at Fatima,
[1:08:42 - 1:08:43] ▶
there was this apparition
[1:08:43 - 1:08:46] ▶
of this teacher who came out of essentially, you know, a globe of lights.
[1:08:49 - 1:08:57] ▶
Well, you know, we're getting reports now about globes of light moving around, orbs.
[1:08:58 - 1:09:07] ▶
Now we call them orbs, so we have a new word for that.
[1:09:08 - 1:09:11] ▶
In those days, it was just a globe of light, up to two meters in diameter.
[1:09:11 - 1:09:20] ▶
Well, you know, that's a complex series of things.
[1:09:21 - 1:09:27] ▶
Of course, the impact of Fatima, like the impact of the miracles in Mexico and so on, has been enormous.
[1:09:28 - 1:09:39] ▶
So, and it's in many ways for a scientist, you know, there isn't much more that you can do.
[1:09:39 - 1:09:48] ▶
But the impact on humanity has been important.
[1:09:49 - 1:10:00] ▶
The impact on belief.
[1:10:00 - 1:10:03] ▶
The year, again, was a year of the communist revolution in Russia.
[1:10:04 - 1:10:08] ▶
Maria thought that she had communicated, she had heard communication from the Virgin.
[1:10:09 - 1:10:21] ▶
The Virgin appeared to her, not to her cousins who were with her, who saw the globe.
[1:10:21 - 1:10:32] ▶
And I think one of them saw the lady, but didn't hear the message.
[1:10:32 - 1:10:40] ▶
One of the messages was that Russia would be converted.
[1:10:41 - 1:10:44] ▶
Again, it was 1917, in a country with a socialist government that had forbidden people from coming there to see the alleged miracle.
[1:10:45 - 1:10:58] ▶
Alleged miracle, and they couldn't stop, you know, 80,000 people.
[1:10:58 - 1:11:02] ▶
So, you know, that's part of our history.
[1:11:03 - 1:11:07] ▶
It's part of UFO history.
[1:11:07 - 1:11:10] ▶
We can't just, you know, forget it.
[1:11:11 - 1:11:14] ▶
I mean, that kind of thing is important.
[1:11:14 - 1:11:17] ▶
The thing that, you know, that movie that was made about the case in Argentina is extraordinary because he, you know, he started making a movie about local traditions, local beliefs of the Indians.
[1:11:18 - 1:11:37] ▶
And this funny story about UFO, and I told him it's not a funny story at all.
[1:11:37 - 1:11:47] ▶
It's a complex story and it's relevant, but, you know, he, they wanted to come interview me in San Francisco.
[1:11:48 - 1:11:57] ▶
And I said, well, for the same price, I can go to Buenos Aires.
[1:11:57 - 1:12:03] ▶
I still speak a little Spanish.
[1:12:04 - 1:12:05] ▶
And if you give me time, I'll relearn enough Spanish to talk to the witness directly.
[1:12:06 - 1:12:11] ▶
And, you know, he changed the, the thrust of the, of the movie.
[1:12:12 - 1:12:18] ▶
And I think he's captured exactly what the problem is.
[1:12:18 - 1:12:25] ▶
And the, the, the, the, the message from the local people is, is what has touched me the most, you know, that we misunderstand all of that.
[1:12:26 - 1:12:41] ▶
We really misunderstand all of it by immediately translating it as a threat.
[1:12:41 - 1:12:47] ▶
And, and, and, I think there are cases where people have been injured.
[1:12:48 - 1:12:55] ▶
There is a potential that it could be a threat.
[1:12:56 - 1:12:59] ▶
There is radiation from it.
[1:13:00 - 1:13:01] ▶
I mean, that's well recognized in that, that last, latest case I published, you know, with, with Dr. Nolan and with, with the group.
[1:13:01 - 1:13:12] ▶
The group, maybe they don't care.
[1:13:12 - 1:13:18] ▶
We don't know what they are doing.
[1:13:19 - 1:13:21] ▶
I think the, the other cases that I'm looking at that are the very special cases where you, you will notice that, that, that case in, from 1966, 67.
[1:13:22 - 1:13:34] ▶
The skeptics have not attacked.
[1:13:34 - 1:13:35] ▶
You know, they have not, they have not attacked me on, on that basis because they know better.
[1:13:35 - 1:13:48] ▶
This is a case that has gone through the Academy of Sciences.
[1:13:48 - 1:13:52] ▶
After study by Dr. Condon, who is regarded as someone who dismissed UFOs.
[1:13:53 - 1:14:00] ▶
So you, you get into the deep stuff, you know, when you touch those cases and they are complex.
[1:14:01 - 1:14:09] ▶
That if you, if you can array the, the right tools and the right science around it, you can get to the truth.
[1:14:09 - 1:14:18] ▶
And that's what, you know, we've done with, with Trinity.
[1:14:18 - 1:14:23] ▶
And I think that, that story is not over.
[1:14:23 - 1:14:28] ▶
Let me try this again about the idea of disclosure.
[1:14:28 - 1:14:33] ▶
Lacombe, the character and in close encounters based on your life arranges and, and coordinates this meeting between humans and non-humans.
[1:14:33 - 1:14:44] ▶
And it's the start of a beautiful friendship.
[1:14:44 - 1:14:46] ▶
We hope there's exchanges there.
[1:14:46 - 1:14:48] ▶
If that happened today in real life, we would not be told your friend, Dr. Hal Puthoff, our mutual friend has admitted in a, in a film that recently came out and in public presentations.
[1:14:48 - 1:15:01] ▶
That he was part of a brain trust during the first Bush administration, the dad, not the son, where they all got together, these brainiacs and experts.
[1:15:01 - 1:15:11] ▶
They looked at all the evidence about the effects of disclosure.
[1:15:11 - 1:15:15] ▶
And at the end of it, even somebody like Hal said, I don't think it's a good idea.
[1:15:15 - 1:15:19] ▶
Uh, we, we shouldn't do it.
[1:15:19 - 1:15:21] ▶
Well, last time you and I spoke, Jock, back in April, I asked you the question about it.
[1:15:21 - 1:15:27] ▶
And you said, we need to have some discussion before we just disclose.
[1:15:27 - 1:15:31] ▶
We need to consider the potential impact.
[1:15:31 - 1:15:34] ▶
You know what the reaction was.
[1:15:34 - 1:15:36] ▶
People wanted to scalp me and probably do worse to you.
[1:15:36 - 1:15:40] ▶
Have you thought about disclosure, how it could happen and how far we should go?
[1:15:40 - 1:15:46] ▶
Do you believe as Hal and his colleagues did that it probably could be disastrous and have terrible effects?
[1:15:46 - 1:15:53] ▶
We have to take, um, well, let, let me go back a little bit.
[1:15:53 - 1:16:05] ▶
I, I knew about that, um, meeting when it, when it happened in, in, in Washington.
[1:16:05 - 1:16:12] ▶
It wasn't a secret meeting.
[1:16:12 - 1:16:15] ▶
It was just, uh, you know, one of those meetings that, uh, are done for, uh, essentially for backfill of, of information and, and testing of ideas.
[1:16:15 - 1:16:28] ▶
So it, it happens frequently in futures research.
[1:16:28 - 1:16:32] ▶
You know, you, you simulate a situation.
[1:16:32 - 1:16:35] ▶
We did that when I was at the Institute for the Future.
[1:16:35 - 1:16:38] ▶
We would get experts together frequently, you know, and present them with a, a, a future technology and, and see what, what their reaction might be.
[1:16:38 - 1:16:51] ▶
All simulated future technology.
[1:16:51 - 1:16:54] ▶
Uh, we did that with video conferencing a long time ago and we published all that.
[1:16:54 - 1:17:00] ▶
And there, I, I have some problems with that meeting because yes, that's a logical conclusion.
[1:17:00 - 1:17:10] ▶
And I understand I had other friends in that meeting and they say the same thing that, uh, that Hal says, uh, and they, they agree with the conclusion.
[1:17:10 - 1:17:20] ▶
I've done, um, studies of crises, um, in, um, in other areas and reactions to crises.
[1:17:20 - 1:17:37] ▶
Um, you know, my, I had a little computer company for a while and was asked to, uh, to testify about, you know, what happens during, uh,
[1:17:37 - 1:17:49] ▶
nuclear industrial nuclear crisis or nuclear crisis like Three Mile Island and how we can mitigate those, those crises.
[1:17:49 - 1:17:59] ▶
Well, my little company was running, it wasn't secret, but it wasn't advertised, but we were funded by the nuclear, uh, industry, uh, civilian nuclear industry for three years to manage nuclear crises.
[1:17:59 - 1:18:19] ▶
Now, three Mile Island was known to the public.
[1:18:19 - 1:18:23] ▶
It was on TV and so on, uh, because it wasn't contained within the company.
[1:18:23 - 1:18:28] ▶
There were people in other companies who had experienced the same failure and they knew how to fix it, except that they didn't have access to that particular company.
[1:18:28 - 1:18:41] ▶
There are 200 companies in the US running some sort of nuclear, uh, nuclear plant or nuclear applications to, you know, electrical current.
[1:18:41 - 1:18:51] ▶
And, uh, to generate electrical.
[1:18:52 - 1:18:56] ▶
So, uh, they didn't communicate.
[1:18:56 - 1:19:00] ▶
And as a result of Three Mile Island, the industry got together and said, we need to establish a link.
[1:19:00 - 1:19:07] ▶
And we had at the time, uh, we were pioneers in, in, uh, computer conferencing and we had a system, uh, to, to link together up to 54, uh, online simultaneously 54, uh, uh, individuals or groups.
[1:19:08 - 1:19:26] ▶
So, um, they funded us for three years.
[1:19:26 - 1:19:30] ▶
We had the dedicated computer.
[1:19:30 - 1:19:32] ▶
They did nothing about that.
[1:19:32 - 1:19:33] ▶
And we solved and extinguished a number of alerts that never became known to the press or the public because there was a simple way to fix it.
[1:19:33 - 1:19:48] ▶
There was a technical way to fix it that prevented a crisis after an incident or an accident.
[1:19:48 - 1:20:00] ▶
The accident would be reported.
[1:20:01 - 1:20:02] ▶
The incident could be solved technically, you know, by people knowing the information.
[1:20:02 - 1:20:08] ▶
They knew the information for our computer.
[1:20:08 - 1:20:11] ▶
So we, we ran that thing for three years and then we sold it to a larger company that's still running it.
[1:20:11 - 1:20:19] ▶
Uh, we had five countries by the way, linked into this, uh, because they couldn't afford, the industry couldn't afford another Three Mile Island.
[1:20:19 - 1:20:31] ▶
You know, it would have stopped nuclear power as an industry.
[1:20:31 - 1:20:35] ▶
Um, because it, it's scary.
[1:20:35 - 1:20:38] ▶
So I, I had the experience of, uh, of that.
[1:20:39 - 1:20:43] ▶
The, what does it take to, uh, present that to the public?
[1:20:43 - 1:20:50] ▶
It takes again, the key, the coin of the realm is trust.
[1:20:50 - 1:20:57] ▶
Um, you know, I'm old enough to remember the end of World War II.
[1:20:57 - 1:21:02] ▶
I was born at the beginning of World War II.
[1:21:02 - 1:21:05] ▶
I don't remember the beginning, but I remember the end.
[1:21:05 - 1:21:09] ▶
I remember the bombing.
[1:21:09 - 1:21:10] ▶
I remember the invasion of France.
[1:21:10 - 1:21:13] ▶
The reason France stayed together is that, uh, under the bombing, under the invasion, under all of that, under the crimes, was the goal.
[1:21:13 - 1:21:27] ▶
The goal, the goal had, uh, moved to London and, uh, started the resistance and made the link with the resistance.
[1:21:27 - 1:21:37] ▶
Uh, and, uh, there was trust.
[1:21:37 - 1:21:44] ▶
He was able to build trust among everybody from, you know, the, mostly he was on the right.
[1:21:44 - 1:21:55] ▶
Uh, he was accused of being on the extreme right, but he had the communists with him.
[1:21:55 - 1:22:01] ▶
He had the communist, you know, the, the, the, the, the resistance itself in the factories, in the trains, in the, you know, in the mines and so on.
[1:22:01 - 1:22:13] ▶
And he had the admin, much of the administration that was still in place.
[1:22:15 - 1:22:20] ▶
And he had the army and the Navy and, and, and could present something credible to Eisenhower when it came time for the invasion.
[1:22:20 - 1:22:30] ▶
Now, um, that's in, in many crises, in industrial crises, which I've lived through as, you know, as an investor, I mean, every, every startup has a series of crises, you know, uh, even Google and Apple.
[1:22:30 - 1:22:48] ▶
And Apple, I mean, look at Apple, uh, what happened when Apple was essentially out of business and they had no CEO.
[1:22:48 - 1:22:55] ▶
Well, you know, they, they brought back their initial CEO who had been dismissed by the board of Apple 10 years before.
[1:22:55 - 1:23:06] ▶
And, um, but by then he had learned something and he had the trust of the remaining people and he rebuilt Apple into what it is today, which is admittedly the leading, you know, personal computer company in the world.
[1:23:07 - 1:23:26] ▶
So, um, the, that's what it takes is leadership.
[1:23:26 - 1:23:33] ▶
Uh, the under, and that's a question that they didn't ask at that, uh, uh, at that test, you know, that, uh, my friends, uh, attended in, in Washington.
[1:23:33 - 1:23:48] ▶
It, it all depends if you, if you trust your leader, whether that's in war or in business, uh, or in a situation where the desperate situation like France and it was invaded, became part of Germany, essentially.
[1:23:48 - 1:24:06] ▶
Uh, the, the trust in the leader, you know, is the, is the key factor.
[1:24:06 - 1:24:14] ▶
So the question is, is arising with UFOs, you know, uh, is, uh, uh, at the time when it becomes obvious that, that the phenomenon is here, is there going to be a leader who can reassure the population and the scientific community, which right now is silent.
[1:24:14 - 1:24:40] ▶
Is silent, it's absent, you know, it's not, I mean, in spite of all the, all the work that Dr. Nolan is doing, that I've done, that Dr. Hynek, you know, the, the professors are not following us.
[1:24:40 - 1:24:54] ▶
You know, they are staying in on their campus doing their research, uh, and they don't trust.
[1:24:54 - 1:25:02] ▶
The, uh, the, uh, UFO, uh, medium, you know, the UFO, they don't trust what they see on TV.
[1:25:02 - 1:25:11] ▶
And, and they have good reasons not to trust it because again, it all comes from, you know, secret thing, classified project.
[1:25:11 - 1:25:21] ▶
Somebody says, oh, I was part of a classified project that did this and that.
[1:25:21 - 1:25:26] ▶
So they built a gadget that can, uh, you know, uh, I would perform a Russian rocket.
[1:25:27 - 1:25:34] ▶
I'm, I'm glad we have that technology and I don't need to know how it works, but that's not what that farmer told me.
[1:25:35 - 1:25:43] ▶
You know, that farmer told me, or in one particular case, some very sophisticated people, professionals, who saw that little light, little light got larger.
[1:25:43 - 1:25:58] ▶
And then, uh, out of it came a craft, the size, the size of my apartment.
[1:25:58 - 1:26:05] ▶
And, uh, it left imprints on the ground.
[1:26:05 - 1:26:09] ▶
And someone I know went there the next morning when he heard that, uh, through the police and he went there with plaster of Paris and he took an imprint of the impact of the leg of the craft.
[1:26:09 - 1:26:26] ▶
And, uh, we have that.
[1:26:26 - 1:26:29] ▶
And it's, it's about this big.
[1:26:29 - 1:26:33] ▶
And this high and it's round and it's perfectly round on top.
[1:26:34 - 1:26:40] ▶
You know, that's a mold from the thing before the, the dirt, you know, and at that point only the, the, the cops had, the gendarmes had access to it.
[1:26:40 - 1:26:52] ▶
And then they, they, they secure the area.
[1:26:52 - 1:26:55] ▶
It's an area that's pretty far away anyway.
[1:26:55 - 1:26:58] ▶
I mean, pretty, uh, it wouldn't be trampled by, but he was, you know,
[1:26:58 - 1:27:03] ▶
that very morning and he took that, that, uh, that cast.
[1:27:03 - 1:27:10] ▶
That's something we can study.
[1:27:12 - 1:27:15] ▶
Um, there, there are, there are, of course, in the cast, there are, uh, leaves of grass that are stuck to it.
[1:27:15 - 1:27:25] ▶
Well, you know, why don't we probe those leaves of grass to see, I know it's been many years, but we, maybe we can still do some, some good with that.
[1:27:25 - 1:27:40] ▶
And there were four imprints like that.
[1:27:40 - 1:27:43] ▶
You know, the craft was about 45 feet in diameter.
[1:27:43 - 1:27:47] ▶
What was it doing there?
[1:27:47 - 1:27:50] ▶
And there was, um, so, uh, I'm, uh, those are the cases I continue to work with.
[1:27:50 - 1:27:59] ▶
And really, I don't need, I don't need anybody.
[1:27:59 - 1:28:03] ▶
I mean, I can, I can find the labs.
[1:28:03 - 1:28:06] ▶
People to, you know, help me interview the witnesses.
[1:28:08 - 1:28:11] ▶
I know the witnesses.
[1:28:11 - 1:28:13] ▶
I, I have interviewed some of them already.
[1:28:13 - 1:28:16] ▶
And, uh, uh, you know, I can go back and do, do some more.
[1:28:16 - 1:28:22] ▶
You showed me a case.
[1:28:22 - 1:28:24] ▶
You showed me a case this morning as something you wanted to talk about.
[1:28:24 - 1:28:28] ▶
And when you showed me the image, it, uh, reminded me of, uh, a military image that George and I obtained and released to the public.
[1:28:28 - 1:28:36] ▶
Can you show me or show our audience that image and why that case is important?
[1:28:36 - 1:28:41] ▶
Can you show that to me right now?
[1:28:41 - 1:28:43] ▶
Um, I'd, I'd rather keep it fairly quiet because I don't want any interference with it.
[1:28:43 - 1:28:50] ▶
Oh, no, I, I'm talking about the photo that you said you wanted to talk about.
[1:28:53 - 1:28:57] ▶
Um, that's, that's also an interesting case because it happened in France in broad daylight.
[1:28:58 - 1:29:11] ▶
Um, with, um, uh, a woman who was, uh, driving from, from her home.
[1:29:11 - 1:29:19] ▶
To the family home with, uh, two, uh, two girls in their early teens in the back of the car.
[1:29:19 - 1:29:30] ▶
The car had a, uh, the roof was open, but there was a glass, uh, glass top, uh, that was not open.
[1:29:30 - 1:29:41] ▶
So they were looking at the sky through the, through the glass and the, ahead of the car, they saw an object coming towards them.
[1:29:41 - 1:29:54] ▶
That looked like that looked like this.
[1:29:54 - 1:29:57] ▶
It was essentially a star shaped, uh, today we would call it a drone.
[1:29:57 - 1:30:04] ▶
Uh, it, uh, it, uh, it was, it was strange because it seemed to be flying, but it stayed in the same position with respect to the car.
[1:30:04 - 1:30:19] ▶
Uh, and they, uh, the woman had this old camera and you can see the sky.
[1:30:19 - 1:30:29] ▶
Uh, there is a, there is a spot here that could be the shadow.
[1:30:29 - 1:30:36] ▶
And the, the, the photograph is not good enough, but we'll work.
[1:30:36 - 1:30:41] ▶
We continue to work on it.
[1:30:41 - 1:30:42] ▶
And, uh, um, again, uh, uh, Dr. Nolan has, has looked at this also, and we're trying to work with the photograph to enhance it.
[1:30:42 - 1:30:54] ▶
Uh, if it's a shadow, it's interesting because we, we know the exact time.
[1:30:54 - 1:31:01] ▶
We know the exact place.
[1:31:01 - 1:31:03] ▶
The woman is a professional woman.
[1:31:03 - 1:31:06] ▶
She's a marketing executive.
[1:31:06 - 1:31:08] ▶
She's worked in the U S she's French.
[1:31:08 - 1:31:11] ▶
Uh, she works with a company.
[1:31:11 - 1:31:13] ▶
Uh, the, uh, that's her camera, but she was driving.
[1:31:13 - 1:31:18] ▶
So she gave the camera to the girls on the back seat.
[1:31:18 - 1:31:22] ▶
And, and one of the girls took that picture through this glass.
[1:31:22 - 1:31:27] ▶
So it's not the ideal scientific conditions to take a photograph, but, uh, but we have the photograph.
[1:31:27 - 1:31:36] ▶
So this was about seven years ago and, you know, way before the, all of the stories about drones and so on.
[1:31:40 - 1:31:49] ▶
So I said, can, you know, uh, you should report it to the French, uh, UFO project that, uh, French research organization.
[1:31:49 - 1:31:59] ▶
And she said, she wanted nothing to do with, you know, with the officials, because again, she, many people now in the U S and in France and in other countries have gotten it.
[1:31:59 - 1:32:14] ▶
That you see something, you don't report it.
[1:32:14 - 1:32:17] ▶
You may report it to George, you know, to you, uh, or to me, if, if they are in contact with me, I get those reports.
[1:32:19 - 1:32:28] ▶
They don't go any further anymore because those people don't want to be known in the community as crazy.
[1:32:28 - 1:32:38] ▶
They don't want to be on TV.
[1:32:38 - 1:32:40] ▶
They don't, they really don't want to be ridiculed.
[1:32:40 - 1:32:44] ▶
They don't want to have to testify to the police and so on.
[1:32:44 - 1:32:49] ▶
Uh, they may report it anonymously or, or maybe not, um, maybe openly to a, a group that they trust to a UFO, local UFO group.
[1:32:49 - 1:33:04] ▶
And they will discuss it.
[1:33:04 - 1:33:06] ▶
Like they discuss it with me.
[1:33:06 - 1:33:07] ▶
I mean, they, she, she, she wrote to me about this, um, because she had read my books.
[1:33:07 - 1:33:16] ▶
But, uh, yeah, that's amazing.
[1:33:16 - 1:33:20] ▶
And a lot of people like us, we, we get a lot of the information and, and it doesn't go to places where we think it should.
[1:33:20 - 1:33:26] ▶
George, you remember this?
[1:33:26 - 1:33:27] ▶
It looks so similar to the one, the military footage.
[1:33:27 - 1:33:31] ▶
This is a thermal image.
[1:33:31 - 1:33:32] ▶
So it's showing the heat signature.
[1:33:32 - 1:33:34] ▶
But when Jacques showed me that I had heard about the case, it's just amazing that there's still so much reporting going on, but it's not going to a central location.
[1:33:34 - 1:33:43] ▶
Like, like it would be useful, you know, for scientific data.
[1:33:43 - 1:33:47] ▶
Anyway, George, what's your next question?
[1:33:47 - 1:33:49] ▶
George, what's your next question?
[1:33:49 - 1:33:51] ▶
Well, I'm, I'm, I go back to where we started, whether Jacques is hopeful.
[1:33:51 - 1:33:57] ▶
Now you've seen the peaks and valleys of public interest over the years.
[1:33:57 - 1:34:01] ▶
And, uh, you know, the public is really excited.
[1:34:01 - 1:34:04] ▶
There's a case that grabs their attention.
[1:34:04 - 1:34:06] ▶
Um, they demand answers from the government.
[1:34:06 - 1:34:09] ▶
Congress reacts, has hearings.
[1:34:09 - 1:34:11] ▶
There are commissions and studies, and then it all goes away.
[1:34:11 - 1:34:15] ▶
Um, is there a model that you would, you would recommend that could be used to push the topic forward?
[1:34:15 - 1:34:23] ▶
Jacques, I don't know if you know it, but we're coming up on the 30th anniversary of NIDS.
[1:34:23 - 1:34:27] ▶
The very first meeting of the Science Advisory Board is two weeks from the time when we are talking here today.
[1:34:27 - 1:34:33] ▶
It seems like NIDS was, was a wonderful model.
[1:34:33 - 1:34:37] ▶
And Bass was a wonderful model.
[1:34:37 - 1:34:40] ▶
But the fact that it had government money in, in Bass, put limitations on where it could go.
[1:34:40 - 1:34:45] ▶
You had great freedom to follow the evidence where it led, but you're not allowed to share that information.
[1:34:45 - 1:34:51] ▶
Is there a model that you would recommend for how to move forward and finally get some solid answers?
[1:34:51 - 1:34:58] ▶
Uh, you know, what you're describing is the public is chasing ambulances.
[1:35:01 - 1:35:06] ▶
Uh, people will say, oh yeah, you know, I, I heard of that case, but there was a new case just this morning on TV.
[1:35:06 - 1:35:15] ▶
Somebody took a picture at night of a light.
[1:35:15 - 1:35:18] ▶
And I say, well, you know, where was it?
[1:35:18 - 1:35:21] ▶
Oh, well, it was in Africa somewhere.
[1:35:21 - 1:35:24] ▶
Well, what time was it?
[1:35:24 - 1:35:26] ▶
You know, what direction was it?
[1:35:26 - 1:35:27] ▶
What that does your picture show, you know, other things, planets or, you know, oh no, it's just a light in the sky.
[1:35:27 - 1:35:38] ▶
You know, I mean, there is nothing you can do with that.
[1:35:38 - 1:35:42] ▶
You know, at the same time, we have cases that are documented, but you know, when, when I said, um, even with my, my colleagues at, so when I said, uh, you know, I, I want the title of my talks be 1966.
[1:35:42 - 1:36:03] ▶
Hainesville, that's the title of my call.
[1:36:03 - 1:36:07] ▶
It's not, you know, the sensational thing that was in the common report.
[1:36:07 - 1:36:11] ▶
It's not, it's 1960s.
[1:36:11 - 1:36:13] ▶
And, and I said, people will say, who cares about 1966?
[1:36:13 - 1:36:18] ▶
Uh, what about the wood that I have that, that I, you know, was last year, it was tested, you know, at an atomic lab in France.
[1:36:20 - 1:36:30] ▶
And we, we know there is new information in the woods from that tree.
[1:36:31 - 1:36:35] ▶
That we're going to continue working with, you know, those, uh, the same thing in, um, in medicine, you know, people chase ambulances.
[1:36:36 - 1:36:46] ▶
They, oh, there was a new case of, you know, COVID or something.
[1:36:46 - 1:36:51] ▶
But if you, if you talk to Dr.
[1:36:52 - 1:36:55] ▶
Nolan, he will say, well, COVID is just one of many, you know, many things that have developed and they come and go and there will be more.
[1:36:55 - 1:37:05] ▶
Because that type of, uh, the, the type of biological entity is going to keep evolving and it will reappear in other things.
[1:37:06 - 1:37:16] ▶
And he's been doing research in Africa on, on other, uh, you know, other things that are part of that family.
[1:37:16 - 1:37:24] ▶
So when you talk to the scientists, they, they are not looking at the last thing that was on TV.
[1:37:25 - 1:37:31] ▶
You know, they are looking at the history of it and you need.
[1:37:31 - 1:37:35] ▶
And that's certainly, you know, I, I think my last responsibility in this field is to transmit some of that, which is why I wanted to talk about the 1966 Hainesville case, you know, and really put it down, you know, reawaken it from its ashes and, uh, and, and bring it, bring it forward.
[1:37:35 - 1:38:03] ▶
And I think we, people need to get back into those books and, you know, uh, and, and look at the old, the old data.
[1:38:03 - 1:38:14] ▶
Should there be something like BAS as a way to move forward, but with private money, not government money so that there are no strings attached?
[1:38:14 - 1:38:22] ▶
Well, um, BAS was painful, uh, and we didn't expect that because a needs experience, uh, uh, uh,
[1:38:22 - 1:38:33] ▶
you know, was, uh, essentially the most outstanding team I've ever worked with in, in science.
[1:38:33 - 1:38:40] ▶
I mean, you know, uh, um, um, well, of course, uh, call, call Callagher and the whole team and, uh, Dr.
[1:38:40 - 1:38:50] ▶
Uh, and, uh, uh, Dr.
[1:38:51 - 1:38:53] ▶
Green, uh, all of us, uh, you know, had specialties, but we all brought something to the, to, to, to, to the meeting.
[1:38:53 - 1:39:06] ▶
Uh, when it became BAS, all of us not only, uh, you know, had that knowledge, but, and background from MIDS, but we had top secret
[1:39:06 - 1:39:18] ▶
experiences, you know, with a few things attached to it.
[1:39:18 - 1:39:21] ▶
So at that point, you know, we couldn't talk to each other anymore.
[1:39:21 - 1:39:26] ▶
Green worked on, on my, my data warehouse for two years, expanding it in certain areas.
[1:39:28 - 1:39:37] ▶
I had consulted him about the structure that users would want in different disciplines.
[1:39:37 - 1:39:44] ▶
And I implemented it based on the structure that the specialist gave me, which is what you do in, you know, when you're a computer guy.
[1:39:44 - 1:39:54] ▶
Uh, that there were new cases coming in that I never knew about that had a different structure.
[1:39:57 - 1:40:03] ▶
And I never knew about that.
[1:40:03 - 1:40:06] ▶
So I couldn't adapt dynamically the structure as I would have adapted it.
[1:40:06 - 1:40:12] ▶
If we had been at IBM or AT&T or in any, you know, in a open company, because there were barriers and I didn't know about these cases.
[1:40:12 - 1:40:22] ▶
In fact, I still don't know about these cases.
[1:40:22 - 1:40:25] ▶
So, um, and, and, you know, the, the other people didn't know what I was doing, um, apart from, apart from that and with other cases.
[1:40:25 - 1:40:40] ▶
Um, so, uh, that, that structure, again, coming back to the beginning is fine.
[1:40:40 - 1:40:48] ▶
If you're a small group of people developing a new weapon or a new radar, you know, you all know each other, you know what you're building.
[1:40:48 - 1:40:56] ▶
And that, that information can be contained and you're all in the same room working on the same device.
[1:40:56 - 1:41:03] ▶
We need to open the doors and the windows.
[1:41:05 - 1:41:08] ▶
I'm, uh, not going to be a part of any, any new secret, you know, I'm, I'm done with it.
[1:41:08 - 1:41:14] ▶
And that comes up with UFO samples, you know, and it's, it's ridiculous.
[1:41:14 - 1:41:23] ▶
I have samples that are part of a case that people in other countries, and I could name, are keeping secret.
[1:41:23 - 1:41:34] ▶
And I don't know what they've done with their samples from the same case.
[1:41:34 - 1:41:38] ▶
So I'm not going to tell them what I'm doing with my samples or the ones I gave Dr. Nolan, but it's ridiculous because we can't make any progress.
[1:41:38 - 1:41:49] ▶
And they are stuck with their samples.
[1:41:49 - 1:41:52] ▶
They think that they are the only ones who have, who know about that case.
[1:41:52 - 1:41:57] ▶
Now I went to that place.
[1:41:57 - 1:42:00] ▶
I spoke to the witness and the witness was smart enough to give them, he had five pieces of stuff that he picked up.
[1:42:00 - 1:42:12] ▶
Uh, when they, they came, you know, they are a government place.
[1:42:12 - 1:42:16] ▶
They came there and they said, we need the, the thing.
[1:42:16 - 1:42:19] ▶
And of course we'll return it to you after analysis, which is what they all say.
[1:42:19 - 1:42:24] ▶
No, um, don't, don't believe that.
[1:42:24 - 1:42:28] ▶
Uh, they may return something, but they've taken the good stuff in the meantime, and they may return something to you that has nothing to do.
[1:42:30 - 1:42:40] ▶
And, you know, that happened in Socorro, you know, in that, that case.
[1:42:40 - 1:42:45] ▶
Uh, where the, the actual stuff that was, was picked up by, uh, Dr. Stanford and Dr. Hynek was never returned to them.
[1:42:45 - 1:42:56] ▶
And they were told, you know, just a fairy story about what, what was found there.
[1:42:56 - 1:43:02] ▶
It was silica, but it wasn't silica.
[1:43:02 - 1:43:05] ▶
And, uh, they, they fooled everybody to get it to the secret lab.
[1:43:05 - 1:43:11] ▶
And it's, you know, uh, presumably still there.
[1:43:11 - 1:43:15] ▶
Uh, Dr. Stanford died in the meantime.
[1:43:15 - 1:43:17] ▶
And, uh, you know, we don't know where the actual samples are.
[1:43:17 - 1:43:21] ▶
We'll never get them.
[1:43:21 - 1:43:22] ▶
Uh, but the witness kept the number five sample.
[1:43:24 - 1:43:30] ▶
And I was offered the number five sample.
[1:43:30 - 1:43:33] ▶
And, uh, which was, you know, which was about this, this big.
[1:43:33 - 1:43:39] ▶
And I said, I don't need all that because Dr. Nolan is looking at very small things.
[1:43:39 - 1:43:46] ▶
So I just need, you know, a few grams of it.
[1:43:46 - 1:43:49] ▶
So we carved out, I said, keep it.
[1:43:49 - 1:43:52] ▶
I don't want responsibility to take anything for customs.
[1:43:52 - 1:43:56] ▶
Uh, you know, you keep it.
[1:43:56 - 1:43:59] ▶
I'm joining me to take, you know, a few, a few grams of it.
[1:43:59 - 1:44:03] ▶
And that's what we have.
[1:44:03 - 1:44:05] ▶
Now the people back there are surprised that I'm talking about that case because they think they have the only samples and they are secret.
[1:44:05 - 1:44:16] ▶
Well, too bad, but they are not, you know, maybe theirs are secret, but mine, mine isn't secret.
[1:44:16 - 1:44:23] ▶
So you run into this kind of stupid situation.
[1:44:23 - 1:44:29] ▶
And that's why scientists are not going to get involved.
[1:44:29 - 1:44:32] ▶
You know, you can't do science that way.
[1:44:32 - 1:44:34] ▶
You're not going to get, you know, your, your university, your lab, your students involved in something.
[1:44:34 - 1:44:42] ▶
And then at the end of it, you find it's a hoax by the DIA or something to fool the Russians about something.
[1:44:42 - 1:44:51] ▶
And, and the whole thing was a joke.
[1:44:51 - 1:44:54] ▶
And, you know, you're not going to risk your career, you know, with that kind of thing.
[1:44:54 - 1:44:59] ▶
And I don't blame them.
[1:44:59 - 1:45:01] ▶
I've tried to pin you down on this question for as long as I've known you.
[1:45:01 - 1:45:07] ▶
It's about the control system, a theory that you proposed, a hypothesis you proposed more than 50 years ago, that there is some sort of a control system imposed on humanity, on Earth from somewhere else, that it limits what we can do.
[1:45:07 - 1:45:24] ▶
And whether Earthlings are aware of it, whether they like it or not, it's there.
[1:45:24 - 1:45:30] ▶
Is there a way to test that?
[1:45:30 - 1:45:32] ▶
And, and have you, have you done so?
[1:45:32 - 1:45:34] ▶
Well, that, that idea comes from a discussion I had in France with, with scientists and with, and because I was showing them the statistics that I had.
[1:45:34 - 1:45:49] ▶
And as you, as you know, I've done a lot of computer work on, on this, looking at the in, at the inner structure, not, not the raw data, the filtered data.
[1:45:49 - 1:46:02] ▶
And then after you get all the, you know, the delusions, illusions, clouds, moon, all that out of it.
[1:46:02 - 1:46:11] ▶
And you, you end up with the hard data.
[1:46:11 - 1:46:14] ▶
The hard data follows a periodicity, which is very strange, that, that looks like an induction sequence.
[1:46:14 - 1:46:25] ▶
And some psychologists looked at it and, and said, it looks like a schedule of reinforcement.
[1:46:25 - 1:46:34] ▶
And I said, what's a schedule of reinforcement?
[1:46:34 - 1:46:37] ▶
And they sat me down and got me to read Skinner and the whole psychology, you know, thesis about, about induction of changes in behavior in animals and in humans.
[1:46:37 - 1:46:54] ▶
You know, with things that repeat, but don't quite repeat the same way all the time.
[1:46:54 - 1:47:03] ▶
And that's what the, the inner structure, that's what I was hoping we would get to with Basque.
[1:47:03 - 1:47:11] ▶
And that's the thing that was cut off, you know, and essentially taken from us with no explanation before we could get to redo that.
[1:47:11 - 1:47:21] ▶
That's the big secret.
[1:47:24 - 1:47:25] ▶
Now, when I discussed it in France, I said, well, you know, a schedule of reinforcement or a, a, a, a, a, a, a mechanism like that can be natural or it can be artificial.
[1:47:25 - 1:47:42] ▶
Nature presents us with lots of control systems.
[1:47:42 - 1:47:47] ▶
You know, in this room has a control system, you know, that controls the temperature.
[1:47:47 - 1:47:53] ▶
If I step out on the balcony, you know, I'm going to get a completely different temperature.
[1:47:53 - 1:47:58] ▶
The temperature inside here is controlled.
[1:47:58 - 1:48:01] ▶
If I wanted to test it, I could light a fire, you know, warm up the temperature inside and see if something controls it and dampens it down.
[1:48:01 - 1:48:15] ▶
So I can do a test of that.
[1:48:15 - 1:48:17] ▶
Of course, the environment is a series of control systems.
[1:48:17 - 1:48:22] ▶
And many people don't believe that the environment is changing and there are scientists who for the last 50 years have said, yes, the environment is changing.
[1:48:22 - 1:48:33] ▶
And, you know, insects from Africa now showing up in Paris, you know, how did they get there from the, from the Sahara?
[1:48:33 - 1:48:44] ▶
Well, they got, they got there because the temperature of France is going up two degrees in a few years, two degrees in a few years.
[1:48:44 - 1:48:52] ▶
That's a control system.
[1:48:52 - 1:48:54] ▶
That it's not an evil group that's doing that.
[1:48:54 - 1:48:59] ▶
It's just the planet.
[1:48:59 - 1:49:01] ▶
It's the environment.
[1:49:03 - 1:49:05] ▶
So, you know, UFOs could be from the environment.
[1:49:05 - 1:49:10] ▶
There could be plasmas.
[1:49:10 - 1:49:12] ▶
Many people say, you know, there is many UFOs manifest the way plasmas would be manifesting.
[1:49:12 - 1:49:20] ▶
So go to a physics lab and ask the professor, you know, what's a, what's a globe of plasma, you know?
[1:49:20 - 1:49:31] ▶
And he'll give you, you know, a bunch of equations.
[1:49:31 - 1:49:34] ▶
And you say, well, how come it can last for 10 minutes?
[1:49:34 - 1:49:39] ▶
And he doesn't have an answer to that because it certainly shouldn't last for 10 minutes.
[1:49:39 - 1:49:45] ▶
And according to our physics.
[1:49:45 - 1:49:48] ▶
So even that is a mystery.
[1:49:48 - 1:49:50] ▶
So, but the UFOs we're talking about are not that.
[1:49:51 - 1:49:55] ▶
I mean, they are artificial.
[1:49:55 - 1:49:57] ▶
We have to believe they are artificial.
[1:49:58 - 1:50:00] ▶
And if they show up according to a schedule of reinforcement in distinct waves over distinct countries, then it's an intelligent system.
[1:50:00 - 1:50:14] ▶
And that's where my sort of control systems come, comes from.
[1:50:14 - 1:50:19] ▶
The question is, can we interact with it or not?
[1:50:19 - 1:50:25] ▶
Are we being trained for something?
[1:50:25 - 1:50:29] ▶
The way Skinner reinforcement schedule would train a mouse or, you know, a man to learn something?
[1:50:29 - 1:50:41] ▶
And, and one of them said, look, look at the university.
[1:50:41 - 1:50:48] ▶
I mean, a university is a control system, but if you apply for your PhD, you don't know what you have to do to come out as a doctor.
[1:50:48 - 1:51:01] ▶
They don't really give you the steps.
[1:51:01 - 1:51:05] ▶
You know, when you, in, in the lower role classes, you have to get good notes, good grades to graduate.
[1:51:05 - 1:51:13] ▶
And then you graduate, not so at the PhD level.
[1:51:13 - 1:51:16] ▶
Many people have gone through PhD studies and they never got the degree and they don't know why they didn't get the degree.
[1:51:16 - 1:51:23] ▶
But there was something in the process, which was not written down anywhere where they didn't get the degree.
[1:51:23 - 1:51:32] ▶
So, I, I spoke to Jacques Bergier who had been in a concentration camp.
[1:51:33 - 1:51:39] ▶
He was, he was a French spy.
[1:51:39 - 1:51:42] ▶
He, he helped build the first scientific, uh, espionage network against the Germans, you know, with the discovery of heavy water and where heavy water came from and everything else.
[1:51:44 - 1:51:58] ▶
He was involved, involved in that.
[1:51:58 - 1:52:00] ▶
He was put in a concentration camp.
[1:52:01 - 1:52:03] ▶
And he said in those concert, he was in three different concentration camps.
[1:52:07 - 1:52:13] ▶
Uh, they wanted to know, of course, what the French were doing.
[1:52:13 - 1:52:17] ▶
Uh, he didn't tell them.
[1:52:17 - 1:52:20] ▶
So they kept torturing him, which was their idea of a control system.
[1:52:20 - 1:52:25] ▶
They actually said it was a closed control system.
[1:52:25 - 1:52:29] ▶
And we think of concentration camps as a closed control system.
[1:52:29 - 1:52:33] ▶
Then he said, we're wrong.
[1:52:33 - 1:52:35] ▶
Uh, one time in one of his concentration camps, the, uh, all of a sudden the firemen from Munich were brought there by the Nazi.
[1:52:35 - 1:52:46] ▶
The firemen of Munich were not happy and they were on strike.
[1:52:46 - 1:52:50] ▶
The Nazi arrested all of them and moved them to, uh, the concentration camp for three weeks.
[1:52:50 - 1:52:58] ▶
They didn't know they were going to be released after three weeks, but they were put in the same regime as the, um, inmates of the concentration camp.
[1:52:58 - 1:53:09] ▶
After three weeks, they were no longer on strike and they were driven back to Munich.
[1:53:09 - 1:53:15] ▶
So he said the concentration camp was like a university, you know, where you could graduate.
[1:53:15 - 1:53:22] ▶
But I didn't know that because, you know, they were torturing me pretty much every day.
[1:53:22 - 1:53:29] ▶
That's, that's human reality.
[1:53:34 - 1:53:36] ▶
He fortunately survived.
[1:53:36 - 1:53:38] ▶
Uh, and, uh, he went on to be, you know, a,
[1:53:40 - 1:53:45] ▶
a prominent advisor to the goal and prominent publisher in Paris.
[1:53:45 - 1:53:52] ▶
That's, you know, that's a real experience.
[1:53:52 - 1:53:57] ▶
Um, he was in a, he said that was a control system, uh, but it could be open or closed depending on the conditions.
[1:53:57 - 1:54:09] ▶
He said, I think UFOs may be the same thing.
[1:54:09 - 1:54:13] ▶
They may be open to some people under certain conditions that they control.
[1:54:13 - 1:54:18] ▶
They certainly have, uh, spoken to people who were confronted with entities that were open to discussion.
[1:54:18 - 1:54:31] ▶
Um, there, there are cases that I know, uh, where there were, this happened in government facilities, but nobody's talking about that.
[1:54:31 - 1:54:49] ▶
So I suspect that that's true based on the people I've met, but, uh, they were not the people who are running the program.
[1:54:49 - 1:55:00] ▶
So I cannot be completely sure, but what they described to me is a very sophisticated process by which we may be able to interact with the entities.
[1:55:00 - 1:55:15] ▶
Those are not the entities that are described, um, at Trinity in, in, uh, in, you know, in, uh, in, in my book, um, uh, with Paula Harris.
[1:55:15 - 1:55:33] ▶
They are not the entities that were, uh, caught in Brazil, um, that, that are, you know, in that documentary.
[1:55:33 - 1:55:45] ▶
Um, they are, they may be the controllers.
[1:55:45 - 1:55:51] ▶
They may be the higher level entity.
[1:55:51 - 1:55:53] ▶
Um, they, if, if, if what I'm told is true, the communication with them is very sophisticated and it's complex.
[1:55:53 - 1:56:03] ▶
Maybe a group that I would respect.
[1:56:05 - 1:56:09] ▶
That has access to that.
[1:56:09 - 1:56:12] ▶
And this was from years ago, by the way.
[1:56:12 - 1:56:15] ▶
I mean, that report of, of that, that particular interaction was more than 20 years in, in, in the labs somewhere in control conditions.
[1:56:15 - 1:56:27] ▶
Then, uh, there is a process ongoing where we may be able to acquire information at a very sophisticated level.
[1:56:29 - 1:56:43] ▶
And that would be, you know, that could be a reason for stalling quote disclosure until there can be a rational way, uh, that we're not confronted with something so, uh, overpowering that it would destroy our culture and our society.
[1:56:43 - 1:57:09] ▶
I mean, we have enough to deal with, with AI these things, which is, you know, foreign entity potentially.
[1:57:09 - 1:57:17] ▶
Um, but so, so you're saying you've been made aware that there is a government project.
[1:57:17 - 1:57:24] ▶
Maybe it was 20 years ago that was able to establish direct communication with a non-human intelligence and that you believe this information to be true.
[1:57:24 - 1:57:33] ▶
And the, and the, and, and, and that this is a reality.
[1:57:33 - 1:57:36] ▶
This is what you understand to be true.
[1:57:36 - 1:57:38] ▶
Uh, it it's factual.
[1:57:45 - 1:57:49] ▶
What I cannot tell is whether that the entity that was presented was a simulation of a real entity or whether it was the real entity.
[1:57:49 - 1:58:04] ▶
Uh, it, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the people I spoke to couldn't probe it, uh, to see if it was made of flesh or metal or, or, or, or something else.
[1:58:05 - 1:58:19] ▶
But the, it was presented to them in a secure facility that I've never heard of anywhere else where, uh, it was presented to them in a secure facility that I've never heard of anywhere else.
[1:58:20 - 1:58:33] ▶
And, uh, where there was structured interaction with it on a continuing basis by specialists from different areas.
[1:58:33 - 1:58:46] ▶
The, the person I spoke to was, uh, uh, an extreme, you know, specialist in, in a particular discipline.
[1:58:46 - 1:58:56] ▶
Uh, and, uh, not, not another casual observer.
[1:58:56 - 1:59:01] ▶
And so that could be kind of one of the reasons we have to be careful, or there's a slow rollout of disclosures.
[1:59:01 - 1:59:09] ▶
Cause you're saying we might already have communication with some non forms of communication or ways to engineer communication at a sophisticated level.
[1:59:09 - 1:59:23] ▶
I don't think the, the entities from Trinity, you know, were obviously scared.
[1:59:23 - 1:59:29] ▶
They were not the controllers of the craft.
[1:59:29 - 1:59:31] ▶
The, the, the witness was still alive, you know, uh, we've become close friends with him.
[1:59:31 - 1:59:39] ▶
Went inside as a kid, you know, I mean, was a very curious, very smart kid.
[1:59:39 - 1:59:45] ▶
When you he's he, as he says still today, I know my territory, you know, this is the land from his family.
[1:59:45 - 1:59:54] ▶
He knows that ranch.
[1:59:54 - 1:59:55] ▶
He knows the cattle.
[1:59:55 - 1:59:56] ▶
He knows where the water is.
[1:59:56 - 1:59:58] ▶
He knows everything about it.
[1:59:58 - 2:00:01] ▶
And, uh, you know, when he was inside, there was essentially nothing except a very crude thing that we actually have, which, and we disagree about what it is.
[2:00:01 - 2:00:17] ▶
But I, I think it's something that the soldiers, that the military brought, and they forgot to take it back.
[2:00:17 - 2:00:23] ▶
But I don't think it's a sophisticated, we've tested it in the lab.
[2:00:23 - 2:00:28] ▶
It's what we spent over $10,000 testing it in Silicon Valley labs.
[2:00:28 - 2:00:34] ▶
And it, it's just perfectly normal gadget.
[2:00:34 - 2:00:38] ▶
It's not mysterious at all.
[2:00:38 - 2:00:41] ▶
So, uh, it may have been there just for the convenience of the soldiers doing work at night or whatever.
[2:00:41 - 2:00:51] ▶
But I, I don't think it's part of the original, of the original manufacturing equipment, you know, of whatever it was.
[2:00:51 - 2:01:00] ▶
Uh, the craft itself, we had very good description of it, by the way, the, the shape and the, the, you know, the look and feel as, as people say in Silicon Valley is identical to the one in Socorro.
[2:01:00 - 2:01:19] ▶
And it's identical to the one in Valenzal.
[2:01:19 - 2:01:23] ▶
So we have three cases there.
[2:01:23 - 2:01:25] ▶
And what's funny is when people, uh, were, uh, describing it in a newspaper and they, they always hire an illustrator and the illustrator always draws a disc.
[2:01:25 - 2:01:37] ▶
And none of those was a disc.
[2:01:37 - 2:01:39] ▶
The witnesses, uh, you know, and called it an avocado and they were obviously speaking Spanish and, uh, they, uh, you know, they called it an avocado.
[2:01:43 - 2:01:53] ▶
It was not quite oval, but it was an oval, oval, uh, you know, normal shape.
[2:01:53 - 2:02:00] ▶
There was nothing inside.
[2:02:00 - 2:02:01] ▶
If there was a, an engine, it would have been under the floor.
[2:02:01 - 2:02:05] ▶
And they looked in under the, uh, under the thing when it was in the truck, in the army truck, which was on the side to go under the overpass.
[2:02:05 - 2:02:17] ▶
I mean, all that is very clear.
[2:02:17 - 2:02:20] ▶
I mean, there's nothing bizarre about it.
[2:02:20 - 2:02:23] ▶
And they could see the underside.
[2:02:23 - 2:02:25] ▶
The underside was intact and there was no opening.
[2:02:25 - 2:02:29] ▶
And it would have been about two feet deep and maybe six feet long.
[2:02:29 - 2:02:34] ▶
That's where you could put an engine.
[2:02:34 - 2:02:37] ▶
And, you know, when BAS was initiated, the, the task given by the DIA for us was to look at, um, you know, propulsion, um, uh, weight and, and all kinds of things that would be the ordinary things that you'd want to know about a rocket.
[2:02:37 - 2:03:02] ▶
Those things don't have propulsion.
[2:03:02 - 2:03:05] ▶
You know, you could go if you master.
[2:03:07 - 2:03:12] ▶
And, you know, if, if you talk to a modern physicist, talk to Eric Davis, you know, who knows all of this stuff.
[2:03:12 - 2:03:22] ▶
He'll tell you, you know, time and space are fine to do equations, you know, in school.
[2:03:22 - 2:03:28] ▶
Now that's not what physics is about.
[2:03:28 - 2:03:31] ▶
And in the universe, you could go from one point to another without.
[2:03:31 - 2:03:36] ▶
Without any propulsion system to take you from one to another.
[2:03:36 - 2:03:41] ▶
In the sense of we think about propulsion with engines and fuel and so on.
[2:03:41 - 2:03:47] ▶
And if you master the, you know, the super space, you could move from one point to another.
[2:03:47 - 2:03:55] ▶
I mean, what do I do with my computer?
[2:03:55 - 2:03:57] ▶
I mean, I, I can be in Romania tomorrow with my computer.
[2:03:57 - 2:04:01] ▶
In, in remote viewing.
[2:04:03 - 2:04:04] ▶
I've been moved to places.
[2:04:04 - 2:04:07] ▶
You know, buying or swan just by reading a set of coordinates.
[2:04:07 - 2:04:12] ▶
And I've experienced the physical data about that site physically in my body.
[2:04:12 - 2:04:22] ▶
I didn't have any rocket.
[2:04:23 - 2:04:25] ▶
I didn't take the train.
[2:04:25 - 2:04:27] ▶
I didn't take a plane.
[2:04:27 - 2:04:28] ▶
No, he just read longitude and latitude.
[2:04:28 - 2:04:32] ▶
I told him, Ingo, I can't go on.
[2:04:36 - 2:04:39] ▶
I mean, this is, this is where I'm comfortable.
[2:04:39 - 2:04:42] ▶
I think I'm going to fall.
[2:04:42 - 2:04:44] ▶
And he said, he said, Jack, go home.
[2:04:44 - 2:04:47] ▶
You, you got the site.
[2:04:47 - 2:04:49] ▶
I said, Ingo, where did you send me?
[2:04:49 - 2:04:53] ▶
And he said, you're at the top of the peak in the Andes.
[2:04:53 - 2:04:58] ▶
So you should be cold.
[2:04:58 - 2:05:00] ▶
You should be afraid of falling.
[2:05:00 - 2:05:02] ▶
You should feel wind around you, which I was feeling.
[2:05:02 - 2:05:06] ▶
And I was in, in that classified room, you know, on the third floor of the SRI, in Menlo Park.
[2:05:06 - 2:05:14] ▶
He was at the end of the table.
[2:05:14 - 2:05:16] ▶
I was at the other end of the table.
[2:05:16 - 2:05:18] ▶
And all we had was white paper and a pen.
[2:05:18 - 2:05:21] ▶
And he read to me a set of coordinates and I was there.
[2:05:21 - 2:05:26] ▶
And he said, That's pretty amazing.
[2:05:26 - 2:05:28] ▶
And I said, Ingo, you know, I'm on a roll here.
[2:05:28 - 2:05:31] ▶
This was, you know, early in the morning.
[2:05:32 - 2:05:34] ▶
And he said, no, I want you to, I don't want to do another site.
[2:05:34 - 2:05:38] ▶
I want you to stay with that because you, you went to the site.
[2:05:38 - 2:05:44] ▶
Well, if you, if the human can do that.
[2:05:45 - 2:05:50] ▶
It's not with my mind that I did that.
[2:05:50 - 2:05:54] ▶
It's with my, my, my body was trembling and was freezing.
[2:05:54 - 2:05:59] ▶
And I was afraid to fall.
[2:05:59 - 2:06:01] ▶
Now, if, if a number of people have described that, Ingo described that, you know,
[2:06:04 - 2:06:12] ▶
you're regular described that.
[2:06:12 - 2:06:14] ▶
Um, I couldn't do it again.
[2:06:14 - 2:06:18] ▶
I mean, I'm not a trained remote viewer, but I, you know, we spent a year with Ingo going through a number of cases like that because he wanted, it wasn't to train me.
[2:06:18 - 2:06:31] ▶
It was to train his methodology because he was going to publish his, his method, you know, of, of going through step by step.
[2:06:31 - 2:06:43] ▶
Well, in depth, most of the time we went step by step and he wanted to see how good he could refine it with somebody who was not a remote viewer, but understood what remote viewing was by spontaneously.
[2:06:43 - 2:06:58] ▶
And, uh, I, um, in that particular case, I, I, I broke the, the, the, the philology.
[2:06:58 - 2:07:10] ▶
Um, but that was accidental, but I know you can do that.
[2:07:10 - 2:07:14] ▶
Um, yeah, you, you've experienced that now, which is different.
[2:07:14 - 2:07:18] ▶
Jacques after 50 years, right.
[2:07:18 - 2:07:20] ▶
You're looking at the UFO phenomenon and you're, you're seeing that it's so vast and you've looked at it through a lens that, that most people haven't.
[2:07:20 - 2:07:28] ▶
One time you came to my ranch in pioneer town, California, and we were sitting out watching the sunset and you said something to me.
[2:07:28 - 2:07:38] ▶
And I want to see if you still feel the same way.
[2:07:38 - 2:07:40] ▶
I asked you, what is it that we truly know about UFOs at all the research you've done?
[2:07:40 - 2:07:48] ▶
What is it that we actually know for a fact?
[2:07:48 - 2:07:50] ▶
And you said, there's, there's only one thing that we know for sure about UFOs that they represent an enormous amount of energy in a very, very small amount of space.
[2:07:50 - 2:08:02] ▶
That's what you told me then that was probably 10 years ago at this point, maybe eight years ago.
[2:08:02 - 2:08:08] ▶
Do you still feel the same way after all these decades of research?
[2:08:09 - 2:08:13] ▶
And after doing more, more research on that case that I presented at.
[2:08:14 - 2:08:18] ▶
So, you know, we've continued to talk to physicists about this and so on.
[2:08:18 - 2:08:23] ▶
Uh, they, they really don't care about energy.
[2:08:23 - 2:08:29] ▶
People are coming up and publishing models of how you could use, you know, thermonuclear energy in such a way that you could go very fast or you could manipulate things in the atmosphere.
[2:08:29 - 2:08:45] ▶
I mean, it's useful to do that.
[2:08:47 - 2:08:49] ▶
I mean, if it inspires people to, to build those theories, that's good.
[2:08:49 - 2:08:54] ▶
I mean, they shouldn't stop, but that's not, that's not it.
[2:08:54 - 2:08:59] ▶
Jeremy, I have no conscience.
[2:08:59 - 2:09:01] ▶
I feel no guilt about exploiting Jacques as much as we can.
[2:09:01 - 2:09:05] ▶
I'll keep him here for two days.
[2:09:05 - 2:09:06] ▶
You, however, have a big heart.
[2:09:06 - 2:09:08] ▶
So maybe you want to wrap it up with a final question or say goodbye.
[2:09:08 - 2:09:12] ▶
You know, Jacques, I just wanted to say, um, you know, thank you so much for coming on.
[2:09:13 - 2:09:18] ▶
You have created such a huge impact on the way that we look at the UFO phenomenon, which you yourself admit we still don't know much about, but I'm going to ask you the same question to end this episode that I asked you on my ranch that day.
[2:09:18 - 2:09:35] ▶
And I hope you can give me a better answer than when I was at, you were at my ranch, which is, are we asking the right questions?
[2:09:35 - 2:09:44] ▶
And if not, what is the questions we should be asking about UFOs?
[2:09:44 - 2:09:49] ▶
I think the right question is probably not just in our brains.
[2:09:49 - 2:09:59] ▶
You know, it's really, it's a phenomenon that is forcing us to look at our culture, look at, um, you know, what we do, um, in wars, what we do in, in business, what, um, you know, everything.
[2:09:59 - 2:10:18] ▶
Everything is going to be in question, uh, not just the physics.
[2:10:18 - 2:10:25] ▶
It's not just propulsion.
[2:10:25 - 2:10:27] ▶
Uh, it's our culture, uh, our hopes, uh, our visions of, you know, of God, of, of other powers.
[2:10:27 - 2:10:37] ▶
And then what we're going to be facing when we go into the solar system and beyond the solar system.
[2:10:37 - 2:10:47] ▶
And are we really prepared to do that?
[2:10:47 - 2:10:50] ▶
I mean, just look at, you know, the, the silly things we do about the moon right now, about just going to our closest satellite, you know?
[2:10:50 - 2:11:01] ▶
And, um, I think that's, that's what's in question.
[2:11:01 - 2:11:07] ▶
And the, the answers have to come from us, you know, not them.
[2:11:07 - 2:11:12] ▶
Are you going to get answers down to fundamental misunderstandings about the nature of the relationship?
[2:11:12 - 2:11:20] ▶
You know, we think of them as invaders from Mars.
[2:11:20 - 2:11:23] ▶
They came here from somewhere way out there, as opposed to that they have coexisted with us throughout human history.
[2:11:23 - 2:11:30] ▶
There is a, uh, one big question, uh, one hypothesis that's, uh, um, very tangible is that they can be try time travelers or that maybe there is no time.
[2:11:30 - 2:11:47] ▶
That may be what they are teaching us.
[2:11:47 - 2:11:50] ▶
Now, um, Eric Davis tells me the same thing.
[2:11:50 - 2:11:53] ▶
And that basically the universe is not a space time universe that it's, uh, the, the, what we perceive at space and time is, uh, a derived, um, quality from something else, which is much larger.
[2:11:53 - 2:12:13] ▶
And, and, uh, you know, that we, we have, we have difficulty in perceiving with our senses.
[2:12:13 - 2:12:22] ▶
Now that may be the level where we have to continue exploring to, to really come to a point where we can communicate with whatever is, whatever is there.
[2:12:22 - 2:12:37] ▶
But we can trust the witnesses, uh, and we have to get away from that feeling that, uh, this is only a threat.
[2:12:37 - 2:12:48] ▶
I, I think it's dangerous.
[2:12:48 - 2:12:50] ▶
Uh, I think we learn more and more about it as time goes on.
[2:12:50 - 2:12:54] ▶
And I think we have to learn to, um, cohabit.
[2:12:54 - 2:12:59] ▶
And we have to learn to communicate with it.
[2:13:00 - 2:13:03] ▶
Well, thank you, Jacques, for your continued work.
[2:13:03 - 2:13:07] ▶
Thank you for your friendship and the things you've shared with us.
[2:13:07 - 2:13:10] ▶
Um, I hope that we get some satisfaction within our lifetimes, that more of this will come out, but none of it will, unless we keep, uh, you know, trying to understand the phenomenon.
[2:13:10 - 2:13:21] ▶
So thank you so much for being here with us.
[2:13:21 - 2:13:23] ▶
Thank you so much for being here with us.
[2:13:23 - 2:13:31] ▶