named joe i'm sure you've heard of him joseph farrell oh yeah i know joe very well you know
and i was just blown away by some of this stuff yeah what do you make of that research i mean
there's the title of that book what was it swastikas and flying saucers yeah well joseph
he's like a bishop in the in the in the catholic church of of russia or something yeah i think
well i think orthodox okay orthodox okay eastern orthodox some version of that and um but he he's
a really highly intelligent man of course and he got into studying the nazi ufo connection and looking
open to an extraterrestrial interpretation of the ufo phenomenon over time because like in the early
years i think it was easy to interpret all of his work as saying all of this phenomenon is uh secret
opposed to last year and it's important because uh speaking for myself i've i've gone to a lot of
in this stuff just you know for a few years recently since like the emergence of youtube um but i think it
was like the first one was james fox then uh jason georgiani steven greer these types of folks
and uh you i've noticed that you've been in a lot of some of like the biggest documentaries on this
brief summary of how you got into the stuff in the first place and what you've been doing ever since
cold war studies at the university of rochester in upstate new york and i was very much into that
i had previous to that i'd studied a lot of european history a lot of diplomatic history
and i think it was 1994 and i saw on a display stand a copy of a book by timothy good called above top
secret which is kind of a classic in the ufo field and uh it was the subtitle of that book that really
i'd seen you know some old documentaries i'd watched leonard nimoy on in search of and seen some of those
things but i really didn't know anything and i'd only heard claims of cover-up and this and that
documents he had names of people that i was studying in my own research and i thought oh wow
like a completely like unofficial version of history here is this true or is this nonsense right and
same time i got on to what was then the baby version of the internet uh all of the usenet groups
were a couple of people that i really learned from and i just went down this rabbit hole and i thought
i'm going to spend two or three months of my life and i want to find out is there something to this or is
there not something to this is this a waste of time uh like all of the other people in the academic
basically the presidency of harry truman i'm looking at the early cold war 1950 and i'm thinking
know and so i thought i'd spend a couple of months to look into it and i got hooked i got totally hooked
obtained through freedom of information which itself didn't really get going until the late 1970s
um when jimmy carter kind of strengthened foia at that time and so at that time a lot of
you read uh statements by the director of scientific intelligence of the cia in 1952 a man named h
marshall chanwell who's telling his boss walter beetle smith director of the cia
in such a manner that they are not attributable to natural phenomena or known types of aerial vehicles
we're being invaded so i read enough of these documents early on to think there's absolutely something that is at least worth
deal with the fact that like why was the first director of the cia a man named roscoe helen cotter
a member of a ufo organization called nikep in the in the 1950s until he clearly under pressure
1946 going into 47 and then out of that you get the central intelligence agency that's all with the
happened at roswell what i think happened at roswell was i think there was the recovery of
of something that was highly exotic that we probably did not make you don't say roswell you don't say
how general corso i think it was had some sort of report of the roswell crash and he mentioned stuff
we had we had our own little cache of alien tech essentially and corso said his job was to
kind of segue that out to private industry as quietly as he could and he did say things like kevlar and
something extraordinary but like so the the the implications of that would mean that either a
there we weren't there but if you are imagining that you've got a team of brilliant human scientists
generate some pretty interesting ideas as a result of that which might be uh variations you know of
some of the alien tech i don't think that's impossible at all so velcro yeah i don't really
know if the aliens use velcro be kind of a handy thing uh for your sneakers or whatever footwear they got
theoretically could be thousands of years ahead of us or more that a you could struggle in figuring out
a lot of these things material science uh i think notoriously is said to be one of the most important
over a number of years kind of passed it out to different scientists including hal putoff and eric davis
layers of bismuth and magnesium and i think titanium in ways that we still do not necessarily know how
sufficient to be able to withstand whatever you need them to do or in the case of what how speculated
talking about but really what it seemed like is a kind of anti-gravity anti-gravity type of a thing so
i cannot understand uh it would produce a kind of effect on gravity wow interesting yeah so in other
how do they do anti-gravity pardon me some kind of propulsion system some kind of engine but no if
it's in the skin of the craft itself yeah that's a really kind of nifty solution and maybe that's
part of what they do wow yeah the only uh my introduction to this whole anti-gravity theory was
yeah understanding it too but uh there's a couple of different theories that people have had as to
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so i started i'm looking at um all of these early documents that's really what got me in so i was
always a document kind of a person i wanted to know uh what was the as far as we can understand
book on this in 2000 i self-published it and then and then yeah in in 2000 that was still kind of a
was the start of my entry into this field back in the early 2000s and i have never left it's it's kept
there but there's different variations of how it works like i remember when i first published that book
he was the first uh kind of famous person to endorse my work it was like great oh wow moonwalking
i don't think it works like that it's it's very privatized you know there's a lot of a lot of uh
a number of people in that crowd including help hud off and including a number of other folks
kind of nebulous like who are these guys is it all is it all think tanks and corporations or is it
something else and i don't know the full answer to that to this day but uh but that's a big part of
this so you're dealing with a kind of a labyrinth of secrecy and to the extent that it's privatized
makes it much more of a challenge for people to use like freedom of information for example right
right well that's by design right yeah yeah i think so so that all of that was an evolution through
my years of looking into this i have to say uh one of the uh biggest turning points for me in this
whole topic was that documentary that you were a part of um about paul benowitz um was it the magic
six yeah that's early that blew my mind that totally that totally blew my mind um such a first of all such
basically scramble the mind of one individual just to alter public perception of something yeah that's
an interesting one because to this day uh the interpretation of what happened with paul benowitz
why why was uh air force office special investigations or cia possibly or any of these
know this paul benowitz was a uh kind of a small u.s defense contractor in the 1970s he uh lived right
reagan uh after 1981 about this wow like saying you've got to get on top of it like and so he was
i think the claim was that essentially like 30 000 foot view is that he was a conduit of disinformation
in the ufo community to poison the well of the ufo community because they knew there were soviet spies
espionage and there's definitely the attempt to muddy the waters of the ufo community but the question
little bit of both i don't think it was all just uh uh that they were only protecting their own tech
ours and i only say that because when first of all there were a number of other people who are
the uh history of violations of sensitive airspace of u.s bases across the entire u.s this is an old
much involved in all of that wasn't there a part of that documentary where they claimed the nsa moved
playing it right out of water they're going to be here in 15 years or something is that magic man i
university of wyoming leo sprinkle who used to do uh hypnotic regressions of people and there was a
for disinformation yes i think that's absolutely true and and um i wrote about this in one of my
books my second volume of history uh called ufos in the national security state and my my feeling was
the secrecy of the ufo subject at that time one was as we mentioned the release of documents of
freedom of information this was a new thing this had never happened before you know in the 50s and
really into that we have this project blue book and we're not really finding any evidence of aliens
for documents pertaining to ufos and holy cow like they got a lot of them proving that the air force was
lying they were lying through their teeth for years and so that was one thing so the freedom of
information act was a threat to the secrecy and if you're if you're on the other side of that trying
is if they shake the tree enough is something going to fall out of that tree that's really compromising
actively cultivating um ex-air force and ex-military people getting all kinds of stories about crash
retrievals it was it was kind of a first like no one was a magnet the way stringfield was at that time
sow the seed of doubt into documents and this is one argument about the mj 12 documents that came
against paul benowitz that we were just talking about could be part of that as well this is like
kind of the empire strikes back you know you've got all of this uh all of these threats to the
empire of secrecy and the late 70s early 80s they make the decision in the early 80s like let's um
but yeah i mean it's we're going beyond ufos here or uap this is in a whole array of things i have no
time and it kind of breaks open the space a little bit where people can talk about this a bit more
you go here's all of our secrets yeah sorry about that we were wrong no that's not going to happen
there's too many far too many reasons right to maintain this and to fight every step of the way
so what i believe is happening in terms of all of this like this has been an argument for almost a
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of uh ufo information to serve their needs or what i believe is we're looking at a factional struggle
absolutely not resolved to that at all not not reconciled to that and they will fight every step of
as far as like all of the information that exists about this stuff on the internet he's he was saying
only like 20 of it needs to be fake he's like 80 of it can be real and still no one will ever know
always look you've got trolls out there you've got hardcore skeptical people out there of course
beginning of may you had oh i missed that well it was very interesting so you had dr eric davis who
stephen greer was very much a part of this so back in 1997 all right greer and edgar mitchell the
they are beyond the formal control of the us government and so they're trying to get audiences
who was uh head of intelligence for the joint chiefs of staff at that time this is april 1997
look into this the head of the joint chiefs yeah well he's head of intelligence for the joint chiefs
so or he was deputy head of intelligence for the joint chiefs he then became head of intelligence for
the joint chiefs which was head of the dia so he was important and he goes on a two-month
that is ultra ultra secret programs dealing with et tech he contacts the managers of one of them
have you do not have proper oversight of this and they are like no we're we're fine we don't need you
bigot list b-i-g-o-t and it's an acronym deriving from world war ii anyway that's the list of people
to be this is this is part of my purview and they're like no it isn't he says well i'll complain
they're like be my guest we're not afraid we're not afraid of you and he did go back to dc he did
there with edgar mitchell and there was another navy commander named willard miller who was part of
attempt by the head of intelligence for the joint chiefs to get access to this program and he was denied
access so it's kind of a big thing like you know you learn this fact and you're like how do we get
to wilson we want to talk to him so wilson retires in 02 and clearly eric davis who was part of the
up roughly 15 pages of typewritten notes of his conversation with wilson i am mentioning this because
i knew i read that i read portions of that document back in 2000 and uh okay so it's still six yeah
at all in 2019 was because of just a year and a half earlier edgard mitchell had died and his estate
um well it got it got leaked out so there was a friend of the family who was able to get some of
part of 2019 they were quietly circulating around like the full notes that davis had written and then
it leaked out it leaked out enough in the spring of 2019 that i uh took it upon myself to do my own
little youtube video on it and i think that's what blew it open in june of 2019 but that's eric davis
like so eric davis is and he's also part of this legacy remote viewing program too right he was a part of
no no and i don't think sarfati was part of the sri thing um okay that's put off and uh russell targ
of people talk about that on this on this show before and it's uh yeah the way he described it with
rogan was uh it was very very cohesive like it made a lot of sense the way he did it yeah it's
yeah there's different types of aliens that i've become aware of and like he's quite explicit
put up a an image of a what was supposed to be a ufo and oh looted yeah yeah it was very quickly uh
the mistake okay fine whatever but i don't think that any of that was in bad faith at all i absolutely
good things had very good things to say and uh more mike gold of nasa but they they focused on this
for the one little thing rather than you look at the big picture of what these other
hell of an interview oh and malengrim he he got very sick immediately after this and he died shortly
uh worked on a number of shuttle missions and said in 1992 he's down by cape cape canaveral i think
and he saw a cctv footage of a he was shown this by another air force officer of a flying saucer
but think of this in the last less than two weeks those all of those have come out like that's
with eric davis and all those guys we're looking at a kind of pile-on effect you know with uh the
momentum of all of this these new revelations new claims maybe it might be a better way to put it but
never in all of the history of ufo research and that's this is something i can speak very
this roller coaster of emotions on the ufo topic from being a i get burnt out on it super easily
just alluded feeding us this fire hose of misinformation just to get everyone confused so
what's going on the reason uh that i i still i very much believe that the significant portion of
history of this uh particularly the early like the post-world war ii but even there are some very
well and so when you look at some of these early cases and then particularly when you read uh the
that we know of at the time in the 40s were looking into this and there just is there's nothing
about joseph farrell before this thing started and um and i'm a friend of joe's and i respect and
like you know third third reich tech and all of that i mean there's definitely the horton brothers
more and more support for the idea of a 1933 italian recovery right italian this is i think
roberto pinotti who looked at a lot of the original documents that do exist in italian from 1933.
and um interesting so i think yes like this goes back farther in time than a lot of the american
call them they go back so far earlier than the the 1940s you think that points to it being of
non-human origin just because of how advanced it was and how early it was i i think so that's what i
uh there's a couple of different ways to look at this so you know hal putoff wrote a very interesting
paper a number of years ago on uh ultra terrestrials this yeah concept and it's a it's very interesting
up with some version of warp drive mathematically the problem is finding the amount of energy
if i've i'm on top of that one so maybe you can you can educate me but uh but i guess i'll just say i
would be of interest makes a lot of sense to me the fact that earth would be a very interesting place
also makes a lot of sense to me i think all of that makes perfect sense that if you have the ability
could be entirely possible and we would be interesting because a there could be a lot of
twentieth the size of the sun and one twentieth the distance from the sun i think i'm getting that
it if if that's a significant part the fact that it's a stabilizer of our environment is very
that but that could be significant it's totally locked yeah thank you steve what's the fractions of
evolve in the water but then we have enough land out of the water that life can crawl up and evolve on land
you know i mean that's kind of an interesting thing right there and we've had enough uh stability over
hundreds of millions of years that we can allow complex life to develop on right and i mean yeah
one out of a million systems might have something like this or whatever it is and that could still be
that given the proper conditions right and i'm going to guess that you know in enough parts of the
point where it develops its own ability to kind of manage itself which we're maybe kind of doing and
nanotech and who the hell knows what quantum computing and what kind of crazy
diabolical mixture will come out of all of that and i think that that's probably what what other life
by the requirements of constantly developing that intelligence in other words
meeting the needs of the demands of a highly integrated digitally advanced artificially intelligent
system of which we are now just a part like we think it's working for us but i think we're serving
just kind of take off on its own because i think it's the intelligence that's the dominant factor
we're the caterpillar yeah we're like the servants of of what high intelligence demands and we we're
out of human beings ends up being in like 50 to 100 years well it all depends on it's summertime boys
humidity doesn't help for me i've become a human petri dish of stench if you've been struggling with
for me especially in florida during the summertime when i do a lot of activities outside including going to
products of your choice like mini body wash and deodorant wipes and free shipping and as a special offer
probably uh a speeding up of of human evolution is probably happening right i think it is right
leap you make whether it's mastering the use of fire or stone tools or now working at it you know
find and process the right kinds of wood like all of that that that prompts further intellectual
i live in florida i go through a lot of hurricanes and it's like exactly so but they were like they
you know going back to this you know this technology conversation and the evolution of human beings
one of the ideas that i've been throwing around is the idea of like this this esp telekinesis having
these senses that are not apparent in everybody but they're kind of like extra some people have have
like ancient human beings right before we had the development of language before we had the
predators to stay alive yeah and boy before we had anything like i'm sure we had some sort of extra
over millennia my wife and i talk about this a lot this is like our one of our pet theories that we've
been uh hashing around for a couple of years excuse me i totally believe that that's the case we actually
are uh the brain capacity of the human being today is less than it was among um our ancestors even more
than 10 000 years ago i think it's like the amount of a golf ball or no more than that i think right uh
uh maybe a baseball amount of a brain we have less we have we have a little bit less that doesn't mean
the brain's expensive i mean in terms of energy like it's it's not free and so you you have to have
that you're right i think that's true like we've probably atrophied um and what that of course this
perceive some various forms of non-locality you know things that are far away that logically you
there might be there definitely are we know of that are really really far away but like we are so rare
in this solar system um all the different species that exist on earth i think out of so this is kind
of getting into what mike masters explained to me he's a uh anthropologist and he was explaining to me
there's over two million species of animals i didn't mean to interrupt you isn't he the one who um
am i getting my people mixed up he came up with a paper about a year or two ago that got a lot of
an anthropologist and he and his and he's wrote a bunch of books on on uh his his i think his it's not
his most recent one but one of them is called the extra tempestrial model and he basically explains
you know having a background in in this stuff and evolution is that there's 200 species of cat there's 200
are 2 million catalogued species on planet earth out of the 2 million 20 of them are hominids out
of the 20 hominids we are the ones that developed technology that was able to escape the earth
so we are like 0.0001 of all species human beings on earth so that is extremely rare for earth which is
goldilocks planets that we know of that are so far away how how many of them have the same gravity the
same atmosphere the same how many of them are water worlds or not and what is the likelihood that those
that you have to have is an ecosystem that can support enough diversity of life for this to happen
agree with all of that i think that's entirely right but the fact that our body plan is an anomaly i
understand what is the mechanism of evolution what is it really is it truly just random mutation or is
engage in planetary domination of any capacity honestly i think this plan this body plan of ours
than that i don't know of anything that's been better uh and then the thing is once our you know
australopithecine distant ancestors of four million years ago or three million years ago they realized oh i
would look like and some of those ideas were kind of kind of goofy when i look at them now and i don't
think they make a lot of sense because a body has to be efficient and it's got a and so you're looking
at all of these different factors that go into it and it seems to me that bipedal standing upright with
a couple of extra hands to do your job like that's really that's quite useful and i could imagine that
can fly as well as insects can fly right and birds and that type of thing yeah that makes a lot of sense
with morphic resonance this theory by uh rupert sheldrake to win there it's like some sort of a quantum idea
it's a it's a quantum theory essentially so i guess one of the examples that sheldrake used was this
a monkey on one side of the world discover some sort of technology figures out how to crack a crack
the monkeys on the opposite side of the world figure out the same thing so he thinks that might
yeah uh you know there's the secret life of plants which came out over 50 years ago which talks about
don't understand it can be a means of communication among plants right all right so how does that work
i don't know google what's the distance what is the distance of the earth to the sun
want to um start working on this project involving usos specifically yeah one of the most uh rewarding
um and you know i've i'd heard of this type of phenomenon for many many years uh it's always been
out of the ocean yeah making a big uh display like that and i thought i mean how many how many of these
stories exist i have a website uh with a lot of amazing members and uh they'll ask me questions one
island called adak island out there and there is a case from the summer of 1945 where a u.s
seattle and they were by the aleutians and apparently an object appeared to have come out of the water
was somewhat known to me and it's known to other researchers and i just did like a little bit of
realize there were a couple of books that had been done on this it was a book back in 1970 by an american
there was a couple of others here and there and i thought i want to collect them how many can i find
doing more of these little mini presentations for my website and it just became by the summer of 2022
it was kind of a mania and i thought i'll see if i'll do a book see what i come up with and that
of work with and give a good description of so i've got about just under 700 uh from around the world
and some of them go back kind of far not not into the distant distant ancient uh the first really
them i wanted to breathe like fresh life uh 99 of them are completely forgotten even by like experienced
deserve they deserve a fresh retelling of them and i wanted to do that and then it just morphed into
wonderful man and did beautiful illustrations for this project and i did a bunch of other things i wanted
not anticipate doing when i started but that became kind of a significant thing too and that taught me
more about this phenomenon just looking at some of the statistics that seemed to jump out at me so all in
all like you you're seeing this phenomenon evolve over especially the last couple of hundred years
believe that they're that they adapted that they've adapted that some of their behaviors due to our radical
transformation of our own technology especially over the last century i mean it's kind of an amazing
thing you know you think of where we were in the oceans a little over 100 years ago we the first
now we have hundreds of them circling the oceans loaded with nuclear warheads exactly exactly so
theme of developing intelligence maybe we're more aggressive maybe we're not as i don't know but we're
when i was looking at the statistics of this um this whole thing happened because
idea if if for each case you had like a bunch of categories so that someone could just like look at
damn it that's a really good idea i didn't want to do it because it was a lot of extra work i had to go back
very glad i did it because then that allowed me to put all of that into a spreadsheet and look at
that i i was just somehow uh not selecting a broad spectrum of cases i mean all of that's possible i
bit of both okay mostly mostly mostly pulling out the information from there are a couple of uh
websites where there's a lot of information so one is the national ufo reporting center that's run by
which is nice because i'm not a mufon investigator but they uh they knew what kind of work i was doing
collected a bunch of these cases so i looked at all of those and then there's books and like out of
kind of people are reporting these yeah there are hot spots we probably part of the problem with usos
of the pacific ocean so that's a problem right there uh navies are the u.s navies but they don't like to
tried to collect all of those they're very interesting but basically we are you know so when
base which is most of them it's long along the coast that's where people about like um oil rigs
yeah a couple of them there's a good one from the gulf of mexico am i a gulf of america gulf of
mexico gulf of america brother that's where we are right there gulf's right there exactly so one of my
there's quite a few from the gulf here quite a few and uh one of my favorite ones this is from the
rig wrote into new fork the website and he uh described this he said i was with a bunch of
other guys on our rig and there was another rig he said a couple of miles over this way and in between
this humongous gargantuan like football field plus size object comes out of the water dripping water
and we're watching it drip water we're kind of blown away and it just zips off it's gone
it's a pretty interesting story and i i tend i mean i read the account and that's one of the cases that
goes into the third volume of my study did that corroborate any other accounts were there any other
similar accounts with football field really yeah also not just usos but you get ufo cases of
heard of that yeah yeah kevin's a really good man he teaches at albany and in new york state
you know look at the ocean so a lot of things about it first of all it's non-compressible in other words
variations are far less in the ocean than they would be above the ocean and a lot of other things
he said you know there's a lot of good reasons to if you are from somewhere else what if you are from
of course there's also our skies are just littered with airplanes so there's that there's that
land so we might hang out in the ocean stay out of the way so there's good reasons that the oceans would
island there's a lot of activity there but north of the island you've got the great puerto rico trench
there are a number of pretty good cases from that area he's showing pulling something up and who um
are there military people that are reporting any of this stuff yes yes absolutely uh well reporting is
a variety of ways yeah so puerto rico is one hot spot uh we hear a lot of talk about california's
catalina island oh yeah near la there that absolutely the entire uh atlantic seaboard of the united states
going into canada uh florida where we are is extremely very very active on all sides of the peninsula
of reporting americans report this stuff way more seems well we have better reporting infrastructure
regions of the world i don't really think that they have the the same infrastructure for collecting
have collected a lot they do a lot of very good work out there um
of like know there's a lot of activity going on in south america and there's a decent number of uso
got a crazy history just a general of ufos yes absolutely and recently learned about that uh that
delta reaching out to the atlantic ocean in the late 70s yes yes yes um and there's a lot of those
that are jet genuine uso cases so many of those were seen in the water coming out of the water
entering the water that's an incredibly ecologically important area part of this world i mean it's
it's the most massive amount of water flow i think going into any ocean on the planet amazon river yeah
out of the amazon it's massive uh this is incredibly ecologically important and rich like estuary
where you've got um it's very it's just very important so maybe there's part of that that's
like it seemed like a slaughter of people or less a lot of a lot of people being being murdered
and not in a kind way by something yeah and in fact there are claims that this type of thing goes
on to this day not necessarily in that specific region but other parts of south america i've really
years some very bizarre cases of uh like human mutilation type cases um that he was looking into
very kind of uh like rural yeah south american type yeah yeah i mean they have some technology so
they're not they're not uncontacted tribes no but they are uh wow they live a more basic kind of a life
who was responsible for this or like what their what their descriptions were of who was doing this
that is not necessarily an alien thing that this could be some kind of really uh like a diabolical
covert op type of a thing happening possibly i i don't want to say much more because i i'm afraid
couple of months and here you are like it just opens up uh all of these fascinating and sometimes
disturbing possibilities that are out there you know out of all the uso cases that you went over
know more about that 1717 case yeah i'll tell you that right now that's right off the coast of
uh the name of the captain i cannot recall his name chevalier something uh he wrote in his log this is so
uh was a a vertical orientation like a like a rod he said was like a mast of a ship so like you and
i envision like a a straight perpendicular rod of some sort but above the water uh moving along with his ship
he wrote in a very matter-of-fact way it was like 1717 17 17. wow yeah this is way before submarines
obviously uh absolutely and uh the 18th century which that is part of that i don't know there's not
many that i have found there's an interesting one off the coast of southern france i think from 1740
that's kind of interesting and then there's one from a river a little small river in scotland in 17
67 and i think that might be it for the only like a couple of cases it really starts going
the first really good one that i just was kind of really taken by took place in 1825 and this was on
a british vessel where they had just returned from hawaii in fact uh well there's a lot of interesting
islands so it's like way down in the south part of the specific the pacific ocean and it's 3 30 in
the morning the ships uh there was a naturalist aboard the ship i think of like in the movie master
and commander they you know the buddy of uh russell crowe the captain was this naturalist uh that they
cannon shot coming out of the water so it was like a deep orange type of a color but incredible
went back into the water now you know how many naturalistic explanations can you think of that can
account for this i can't think of any and bloxum writes this in a very straightforward way i mean
you read the rest of his diaries i read some of it i mean he was clearly a very uh meticulous
in his journal from august 12 1825 that's a heck of a case and i thought that's like the first really
got illustrations or what yeah i think this is the illustration of that event oh or at least it's
what was the size of the thing did they do i he you know i don't think he was a direct witness i think
estimate i get the impression it was kind of large i mean it was noticeable it was very bright lit up the
deck of the ship by the way so fast forward about 150 years to 1971 okay this is going into my next volume
is a very involved series of uh exercises and they had just completed that it's 8 30 july 2nd 1971
name is james copp with a k and he also reported this to a couple of other um websites uh at the time
suddenly all of the communication he discussed the the way the communications on the ship where he
but it's really it's kind of not that funny he hears on the intercom someone screaming it's god
it's the end of the world so he's thinking what is going on he goes he's able to go out and look
hovering above or near the jfk he said it gave off about half the strength of sunlight
so it's kind of bright and uh there there are sailors who were having a really difficult time
and you get this same type of glowing globular sphere wow yeah like what is that right what is that
i wonder how many of them there are you know because like the most the first one that i ever heard
there was a bigger ship that it came out of or something i think so yeah there's talk about that
documented on all of his uh his radar right even though it hasn't been released well yeah there's
and there's a lot of good witnesses for that um kevin day who operated the radar aboard the uss princeton
who's a very decent man as a friend of friend of ours uh was there and uh has talked about this
and great to tell and of course we have david fravor's testimony and and um a number of the
doubt that something very very unusual happened there for sure of extremely high order of intelligence
anywhere near catalina it's off the coast of that happened off the coast of lower baja california
oh that was in near baja california i think yeah a little south probably south uh west of san diego i
i have there's a lot of crazy stuff out in the ocean i have a friend who lives in tijuana and he
says there's all kinds of like ufo stuff going on out there especially like in the water like uso type
a lot of anecdotal information in mexico i have uh you know we spoke to a couple of years ago a gentleman
who had an interesting uso uh account uh off the yucatan part of it you know on the other side
case of like a ufo like stopping a nuclear submarine or something or interacting with like a big nuclear
sub well we have some pretty good account actually the best accounts of that by the way i'm a very big
admirer of robert hastings work especially on nukes very very important so i'm glad you mentioned him
one or two of american but the soviets soviet union um yeah they have some we we learned about them i think a
lot of this happened when the soviet union fell in in 1991 and for a while there a lot of these stories
came out a lot of kgb files and this type of thing and so we uh soviet navy in the late 60s and through
apparently and wonder is this americans are they what is this is some kind of new technology we have
submarine right uh but that would happen and uh there would be multiple ones of them uh they'd be
there was a um apparently a a formal classified study of them that was supposedly within the soviet
military structure and it's not available that i'm aware of but yeah it's interesting because you only
kind of detection one of the things that just fascinates me about uh these usos is like whenever
i write about any of these i i try to whatever extent possible to put myself in that position
you're hunting from their point of view about this i mean honestly i mean uh but the amount of drama
the human drama has got to be off the charts for these people to have experiences and that was one of the
rail draws for me to uh to engage in this project yeah that's one of the things i think about a lot
too like you know there's various ideas of like how many people in the world know the truth about
this stuff right like how many people that exist on earth know everything outside of the compartmented
mean i've spent 30 plus years and i'm not one of them right i've tried right i try to get a handle
on it but uh there's massive gaps i like i have that i always imagine like if you were one of those
people if they do exist if there is anyone who has the whole picture the whole every piece of the pie
in uh the study of human civilizations is a very um kind of i i once read uh the condensed version
of a book by arnold toynby a really great historian it's like the mozart of historians in my opinion and
progress of of human society and what is it that makes a civilization and so he did this comparative
study of human civilizations anyway i was reading that at the time this is 2007 2008 and um i thought you
know what about a civilization that develops out of the classified world that we don't know about
during the cold war of of separate scientific infrastructure in the soviet union they had a
separate scientific infrastructure that in a lot of ways was based on some really bizarre things they
to go down this dead end path basically of research so like there are now that's something we know about
uh which i was really thinking a lot about of course at that time to the point where you would have
breakthroughs in terms of understanding whether it's gravity or material science or understanding who
these beings are yeah that you cannot share with the rest of the world right but you that doesn't stop
you from continuing on right to develop this and so you you end up going on your own path and you kind of
proles living on the surface but you you are aware of anti-grav research you have the ability to go off
and maybe a third and so you've got all these layers of cover and then you do your work you're in
day you know and you can't really talk about it so that i think is probably that was my my vision of it
that well if you were uh one of the executives of one of those corporations that did have this
technology that's been evolving since the 50s with some sort of crazy physical understanding of
physics that uh the rest of the world doesn't even understand and you now have weapons that are more
powerful than the united states military russia china all of them combined and the head of the
joint chiefs of staff wants some answers you're gonna give them the double bird you're gonna say off
you're not getting any of our stuff we could take out every single military on the war in in the
in the snap of our fingers so like you you don't have to answer to anybody yeah if they're that
what is the structure of this secrecy for real like who who's running it who's who's the guy in charge
and does he answer to someone else does he answer to them there's all kinds of possibilities who does he
she's a great friend of mine oh really love katherine i just had her on fascinating and she was
looks at this whole thing from a balance sheet perspective saying all these trillions of dollars have
off yeah a couple of things so first of all everyone should know who katherine austin fits is she's
the summer of 01 that was 2.3 and that number actually they supposedly got it down to zero uh if you want
there's a lot of opportunities for duplicate transactions to be recorded and so i don't really
know how much money gets siphoned out there's definitely i mean i completely agree a lot of
a factor of eight right so how do you lose eight times your annual budget it beats me i don't know what
became assistant secretary of hud housing and urban development yes correct first bush administration
uh the full budget of hud is that it and they're like you're not authorized and she
of papers and she i think she said something like you know god could not sort this mess out it was
designed it was so it was it was uh physically unauditable and and one of her points i definitely
where these people are uh they do not adhere to the rule of law they are above the rule of law yes and
idea that they're all all this money is going to some stuff that we know and and then well think of
one thing here sure so all of our history right we i'm sorry to interrupt you no all of our history has been
priesthood guys in charge and they own everything they control everything but in the last couple of
hundred years we like to think that we have this democracy of some sort where everyone's participating
parts of that are equally important you have to have the people need to believe that they have a
kind of democratic system or else they'd be very unhappy because we want to think that we have a say
top and throughout all of the 19th and 20th and now 21st century their goal has always been to figure
dishonest it has to rule by lies because and and that that distorts all of our politics too because
everything's now out in the open you can't really um yeah everything's got to be kind of tossed out
there for the people and it's all a series of manipulations one after the net it's just we get
disclose certain things because they feel like that will unravel a whole another layer of lies that will
sure there will be a lot of really terrible consequences for divulging some of the secret
reveal of this whole ufo uap subject like a true reveal is highly highly destabilizing really too
like there are factions that will never give this up they will never look think of it like but what
justifying that yeah maybe they're right we we don't know all of it do we uh i believe in truth
i like to think that most of us believe in truth and if i'm gonna have faith in anything it's gonna
and some and some of them are not human and they're here that would be disclosure right that's kind of
but even in that scenario uh i was you know even in 2010 i was all over 9 11. i got into a lot of
personal thing on that level i mean for anyone who went through that of course i'm not saying like
more for me than anyone else but my dad was was there that's crazy so your dad your dad knew a lot of
people that died and i'm sure you did too yeah a lot of firefighters of course and a lot of good people
one of my theories on 9 11 is that um that people that were closest to it and affected by it the most
any of the alternate ideas of what happened right that that don't go with the narrative right they
uh on false flags a history of false flag operations in our world i i got i got really into it and uh
in fact i did a i wrote a little tv series for gaia television um number of years ago on the history
of false flags you can go find it go to guy and go look for it um that was much less than i had actually
deeply upset by it and then what you do this is the genius of it you find the solution immediately
or any other there's a lot of false flags america is the king of false flags especially after world war
so you have the emotional connection to some kind of here's the explanation and once once you get that
that was put out the total theory but it was that was put out within a week of the event this guy
that theory roughly the the planes crashing caused a pancaking effect oh yeah of the one floor on the
pbs which is total cia op anyway and my dad bought into it of course he did you know i don't blame him
and you know i mean how do i how do you talk about this without uh 50 of the population
going to believe it so that's that's a complication where we're in a kind of a post-truth world essentially
and they'll cause a lot of noise and it works yeah well i i've thought about it and i think i'm
probably in that camp where if the top top top level of government came out and said aliens are real
i would probably think the opposite or something there's some sort of weird mix right i mean there's
definitely a large amount of people out there who um for you can't really blame them that they know
going to be right to a certain extent think of i think of the ufo reality as a mountain right
possible yeah so it's going to be deceptive yes any kind of real uh official attempted disclosure
it's pro is almost certainly going to follow that model i still maintain and i i've caught a lot of
hell for this and you know what can i say but i do think that a lot of the people who are pushing
and i think he's he's i think he's on the right side of this that's my belief people can say you're
that so but i'm not i don't look at it that way so i don't have a lot of their um you know predilections
do you have um sort of like a a checklist or do you have any sort of way to qualify people who come
or some some sort of a mixed bag that's a very fair question and i don't i don't know if i can
like i can't give you a mathematical equation to say this is he fulfills all of these criteria there
money and to like sell books and to do this kinds of things but they can also be useful idiots to an
criteria that that any responsible researcher should adhere to so when first of all you you want to
you know we went through a period of a decade or more ago when you'd have all of these totally anonymous
than you do who know more about the history of aviation than you do who know more about the
history of this department than you do like you want all these people have a chance to chime in
a little controversial it was much more controversial in the past and uh part of it is like you
you go by for me because i wrote about him over 15 years ago in one of my books and it was really
finishing one of my books and um i ended up thinking i believe this man and i believed him because
of the consistency of what he said over a number of years the fact that i never felt he
know something he would say so like and then and then of course i did get to meet a number of people
to come there because he's so easily discreditable because of his background and some of the stuff
still married to her there was a bunch of really which was it's such a clusterfuck of logic when
you're thinking about this stuff because you got to think like all of these things which are utterly
this thing but then if you're looking at it from the reverse side of the lens if you're some
intelligence operation trying to do something and protect yourself in case the cat gets out of the
if you hear his story like the way he tells it he made the initiative to do all of this so he he was
very unhappy with his employment situation at the time he had met edward teller right the vendor of the
like he's a brilliant guy he developed his jet car right and it made the cover of the los alamos
and i'll see you know they had this kind of conversation and a couple of years go by and
the only reason that he went public is he uh bob lazar forgive me if i'm getting any of this wrong
of his at the time and they start going out to watch the uh displays of the craft and i think
it was i think it was like a more of a debate or like a conversation with him and stan friedman
eyes you could look carefully you could see it i had all of i had big round glasses still and uh
i wasn't even really conversant with lazar's story i had just worked my ass off to get the story of ufos
up to 1973 that was the end of my first volume and uh lazar you know he was after that and i was
this is still in the early 2000s in the late 90s and but a lot of lazar's interviews were available
that one gets is that he just got sick and tired of the field and that there was you know it's like time
also there's all these other whistleblowers that come out and one of the most recent ones that really
he had a different he was had a different angle of it he was a part of some different organization but um
um basically he says that he went to one of greer's public yeah whistleblower conferences and he
have it but you've got the wrong interpretation of it i think like it's not a human trafficking kind of
thing sure i think he got a kind of he so yeah so jesse brought up brought that up about the human
of those wasn't he yes he was and um and you know you said they were they were keeping them and like
on this one i just haven't uh i mean i'm aware of the story and we mentioned stan friedman stan
i put it in my gray box yeah and there's a lot of things to go in a gray box sure and that
that's one of those things where i mean i would say let's keep it open and let's find out if there's
maybe we can we can move on from there but that's the problem with a lot of the elements in this field
but i am absolutely convinced we don't fully appreciate the depth of what it really means
i mean look imagine being across the table not from me but from one of them and imagine they have
an iq of 500 and they're looking right at you and they've got a telepathic ability maybe they're
that's a great question i wish uh i could have thought about this before it's kind of tough kind
of tough on the spot a story that has no whether it be like a like a i mean other than the fact that
it's kind of like it's grainy footage whatever and it's kind of like take it for what it is it could be
darpa it could be non-human intelligence but like say there's one of these whistleblowers that come out
like michael herrera or jake barber or or bob lazar right one of these sorts of stories that you that you
came out in 2019 that that document i knew it was real and there were a lot of people at the time
who were saying it's fake one person said it was a movie script one person a lot of people were just
off at the rest of the research community because i was for a little while the only the only person
publicly to take a stand on it wow yeah and everyone's like throwing all kinds of shit at me and
that's fine but i'm like and there are a couple of people who privately had said to me
uh some really snarky nasty people that popped up out of nowhere and then have since disappeared
jacques valet talked about it in in his forbidden science one of his volumes in his diaries um oh
really yes yes he mentioned knowledge of it at the time when at when um the ass when um
and it's in there uh also eric davis himself short of saying i wrote them several times interviews that
mentioned that he introduced davis by way of those notes and he he uh so he obviously knows it's real like
talk more about the military aspect of this uso stuff yeah yeah yeah um what before we do that one of my
bahamas that was specifically in charge of tracking some of this stuff this underwater ufo stuff do you
so um apparently what what i for the way i understand it is they had some sort of
maybe it was like a whoa holy macaroni bless you uh underground or not underground underwater sort of
base to track and detect things something like this yeah so i am aware of that and i do have a
what he has to say yeah one of the things that i try to do with this study is two things what so one
these books um i break them into chapters and at the beginning of each chapter i try to highlight like
the development of a lot of the navy systems goes has gone into that section of of each book uh the
the top of my head i don't really know what else to say about it but okay it's as that description there
says uh secretive testing of underwater vehicles yeah they they called it the underwater area 51.
thing i did when i collected all of these cases on my little google earth i put a little yellow pin
region here and so the fact that they've got something down there in the bahamas i just think it's kind of
interesting because that's a very very active area for usos in general one of the fascinating things
was a part of this base somehow well there's an underwater version of the nro um and it's n uro
listening i i'm a big admirer of his yeah jesse's had jesse's had him on yes highly highly intelligent
operates primarily in the waters of the soviet union started in 1969 and it's there's a history
there one one thing that they were they have they collected um a tremendous amount of intelligence
against the soviet union out of the sea of what coasts off the coast of kamchatka there and uh they
actually were able to place a device on a undersea cable there like a listening device to kind of tap
ago i think that's right so you've what we really have what the united states is of course is a a
society right so i think there's all kinds of secrecy that's going on i i would not be shocked
at all that there were a bunch of three-letter uh type agencies that we don't know about it wouldn't
she's saying that it's very possible that like trillions of dollars are going to the going to these
you know i i um used to know there was a researcher uh by the name of richard souder dr richard souder
and uh is he the guy that was killed no not too much i think he's still alive okay yeah you might be thinking of um
spazzing out of the souder yeah so richard souder did uh a number of books in the 90s on in the early
2000s on underground and also under sea uh potential bases and he you know a lot of his work was very good
supplies of oxygen tanks they have to extract oxygen out of the waters i think it's called
that it would be possible that you could have a a whole array of underground and potentially undersea bases
u.s navy back in the late 60s and he was asked to develop a series of illustrations uh portraying
your question what catherine was asking about we're talking about these potential of under deep
underground kind of a labyrinthian underground connection bases uh it's totally possible
씨 that i think phil indy马ine he brings you to my point of view i agree with you
but i wouldn't doubt that it's that it's a possibility yeah uh thinking of the other guy schneider phil schneider
phil schneider of course might be the guy you're thinking oh yes phil schneider uh that's a whole
these people were taking some of this money using money to explore space yeah and explore these
all this work gets tons of money from the intelligence community and the u.s government
to do all of this work and this is probably responsible for a lot of the money that he's
bullshit there's no no evidence of this stuff if they're yeah if these aliens exist they sure are uh
knows far more so it's hard for me to say oh he's full of it but for him he's made this statement a
number of times that you know there's no he's not seen any evidence that there's anything extraordinary
there is a tremendous amount of actually very good space-based evidence for anomalous activity out
jeff he's not alive anymore he uh he spent all of his time just pulling down nasa video footage from
gullible believer he was i think a very uh very astute and he just kept finding all kinds of crazy
things on these nasa missions objects out there that just did not make a lot of sense objects doing
can put out there to to explain some of them maybe like a booster rocket went off and uh ice crystals
moved off at an angle but there's there's a lot of these types of things that seem very bizarre and
they're not all american you have had a lot of statements from american and soviet cosmonauts
pavel popovich of the soviet union both highly regarded uh cosmonauts in that country both spoke quite
openly about uh these types of things in orbit that that they were aware of or had seen and uh quite a
a wave of the hand as he seems to do i i find very curious yeah have you heard of the uh the guy who
individual i think yeah there was two of them there was one of them named hal paven meyer who
yeah who uh apparently like said all kinds of stuff to chris like told him like we brought him to cape
times a number of times and um is that believable yeah that's totally believable yeah yeah i could
some of the stuff i could believe i could believe what she wrote i don't i can't say that i know but i
could believe it yeah i've had uh i've been reading a lot of ufo researchers who have various takes on
chris bledsoe and quite a few of them have come out and and made the assertion that he is like a
uh a couple of years ago i think it might have been it might have been the first extended interview
so a couple of things first of all chris is a absolutely super decent human being his whole
any question about it there's in fact just recently didn't a number of new people have come out to
to say i wasn't i've not been there yeah i've heard different types of stories but i i think it's fair
yeah i i tend to um i i don't think he's making any of this stuff up i feel like uh my my gut told
nasa are like clinging to him well there's a couple of ways to look at it one is that it's an op
would that not be a possibility one of the things about about stephen greer is that you know he
security state i think partly because of this you know one of the things he talked about and it's true
as far as i can see it's absolutely true is he met with a gentleman named john peterson of the arlington
institute who was for many years on the short list of you know dod secretaries and things like that
he was one but he's he's up there uh and also the then director of the cia james wolsey and their wives
all of their power they went to some dinner together yeah they had dinner and this is i think in the late
90s i think yeah no early 90s because wolsey was director of cia
talking about crop circles in england in the early 90s he did a little bit of that and
paid for some uh subscription to some website that could pull up pdfs of like ancient news articles and
he was basically making the case that um essentially what the news article showed was uh the description of
greer the publishing in the newspaper of greer how he got married when he got married to his wife and all
in haifa and i've never heard him talk about any of this stuff and this was like in the i think it was
i well first of all i would never comment on some aspect of a person's life like that i have no
no understanding of it and it's it is not for me to get involved in anything like that i if even if i
just this is part of the territory when you're trying to navigate these things in the public and
you know it's just part of this it's just i feel like it's part of the things that you have to sort of
put out there and question when you're put in the place of of trying to evaluate whether these people
are legitimate or not well one thing that i always have to remind myself of is uh that this whole subject
uh you know i've kind of referred alluded to this a few times in this conversation with you but
it's of profound significance and so that means there are people who have a stake um on the pro side
works in the uh if there is some sort of uh general opportunity in the intelligence community to cover up
jim mars i loved jim mars he was a great man uh but anyway like the 90s were it was you were kind of
me 9 11 was what put me over the top by the way 9 11 put me and i think a lot of people full on in
there but the problem is when you think that everything is an op so that's a bit of a problem
for me too like uh i said earlier like i almost wrote a book on false flags in the history of it so
like there are lots of hops like they happen but when you reflexively i'm going to be careful how i
that's ever existed it's a really dangerous solvent for the a certain amount of social cohesion we have
but i do think what we've fallen into is i call it a kind of a post-modern trap which is when someone
makes a claim about anything frequently from a lot of people the first thing you'll hear is oh that
there were a lot of military insiders in the 1950s who were totally of the belief that we need to get
for the army or the navy am i supposed to then say oh well they've got some kind of they've got an agenda to
their information and the fact is that there are people from every part of the spectrum here in this
in from a lot of different places it seems to me yes which is why i appreciate when people like you
who have a pragmatic view of all of this stuff and are able to take the information from all these cases
and sort of see where they all fit together and maybe where they don't and um provide that to
people in a balanced way i think it's that's that's super valuable and rare i never thought of when i was
much younger i didn't think of myself as a pragmatist by nature i didn't really know that but over the
and ideologically driven i've got my own beliefs about all kinds of things but i also realize
and so that was kind of good because i was able to appreciate two very radically different world views
that each of my parents had and to understand where they were coming from and to respect where they
world than i do that's kind of ridiculous but yeah we do it we do it all the time people on the right
fantastic a lot of fun i enjoyed this thank you uh tell people uh where they can find your new book
website called richardolemembers.com and um there's a paywall but there's a lot of free stuff
there people can go uh take a look at it there's a lot of information there a great community i can't
speak highly enough about the members of the site uh and i got my own youtube channel it's uh just
of the jfk assassination well he was definitely killed in a conspiracy in my opinion yes i would
definitely lay the uh most of it at the cia and uh the the deep state um i think kennedy's assassination
you had ufos are part of that that's not right a trivial part of it not the whole thing though no
that's what they thought here's my book i totally agree there we go the history of usos
all of the cases i've written them all i'm happy with how they read i keep adding new cases but uh
rip through a couple of these questions if you don't mind yeah um gladly but that's all for the