he started telling me his whole life story. He's going into CIA. He's going into this. He's going into that.
[0:08:16 - 0:08:21] ▶
The language is because we both spoke a little Mandarin. He spoke better than I did. And so there
[0:08:21 - 0:08:27] ▶
And so do you think that E. Howard Hunt knew about, you know, NHI and aliens and that JFK's
[0:10:21 - 0:10:28] ▶
And obviously Nixon was notoriously paranoid. And so maybe it's because you have this guy,
[0:13:15 - 0:13:21] ▶
Larry O'Brien, who knows that you commissioned originally this S force team of assassins,
[0:13:21 - 0:13:26] ▶
I realize I go around in circles, but you know, as Matthew McConaughey says, time is a spiral.
[0:20:55 - 0:21:01] ▶
Um, so what we have is what got me involved in this, really involved in the UFO thing.
[0:21:02 - 0:21:08] ▶
Because I really wasn't, you know, from the beginning, I mean, I was kind of like interested,
[0:21:08 - 0:21:11] ▶
like anybody would be interested, but not, you know, to the extent that I would study it.
[0:21:11 - 0:21:16] ▶
I'm going through the, the Warren Commission reports, the, all this, I mean, the entire
[0:21:17 - 0:21:21] ▶
thing, not the, not the, uh, summary, but all of the volumes.
[0:21:21 - 0:21:25] ▶
And I'm going through the, uh, Ruth Payne, uh, the lady in Texas, the Quaker.
[0:21:25 - 0:21:31] ▶
Studying Russian. And she's, she's talking to the commission, you know, and she's going, how she
[0:21:31 - 0:21:36] ▶
met Lee Oswald and Marina and everything else. And then she starts talking about how, you know,
[0:21:36 - 0:21:41] ▶
just before the assassination, she goes up to visit, you know, Arthur Young and et cetera. At that point,
[0:21:41 - 0:21:47] ▶
um, Alan Dulles is part of that committee hearing. He stops her. He totally derails that story. And he,
[0:21:48 - 0:21:56] ▶
he makes a joke about something else completely unrelated and buries it. She was about to say
[0:21:56 - 0:22:02] ▶
Orleans. So he is arrested, um, by Jim Garrison on his orders, uh, for having been involved in the
[0:27:14 - 0:27:21] ▶
Kennedy assassination. And evidently, Clay Shaw calls Fred Crisman. So why, right? So you're asking
[0:27:21 - 0:27:30] ▶
Arnold was, did not have a reservation in any hotel. He just kind of showed up because Crisman
[0:28:17 - 0:28:21] ▶
said, why don't you come down? We're going to talk to these guys. And Arnold shows up and there's no
[0:28:21 - 0:28:26] ▶
sheet a mile along and everything else, but he's running a church out of Kentucky. So Carl Stanley
[0:32:16 - 0:32:21] ▶
tells the FBI, look at these two guys in New Orleans, they're involved in the assassination.
[0:32:21 - 0:32:26] ▶
He commits suicide or is suicided under mysterious circumstances during the investigation into the
[0:34:15 - 0:34:21] ▶
Kennedy assassination. Jack Martin is the only one that survives. Okay. Years later, I'm interviewing a
[0:34:21 - 0:34:29] ▶
And in 1968, I was still in high school.
[0:37:21 - 0:37:24] ▶
So those are the three options. But there was a fourth.
[0:38:19 - 0:38:21] ▶
And the fourth was, the US government would not force you to join the military if you were a priest
[0:38:21 - 0:38:31] ▶
document. I think in New York, you had to be 21. So we had to find people to sign for us,
[0:39:41 - 0:39:45] ▶
because they're national churches. So you have Greek Orthodox churches, Russian Orthodox, Serbian,
[0:40:21 - 0:40:26] ▶
He says, this is the thing though. He says, the Russians have been moving agents into the United
[0:48:14 - 0:48:21] ▶
States through the Orthodox churches. Keep an eye out. Mm.
[0:48:21 - 0:48:26] ▶
history. Specifically spooky science, atomic era stuff. And so we have our atomic age tee here.
[0:50:13 - 0:50:21] ▶
Uh, pretty cool vibe. Uh, you got a robot serving this guy, a little martini, and then a UFO off to
[0:50:21 - 0:50:30] ▶
And we put him back on the plane the next day. He goes back to Nigeria. God knows what happened to
[0:57:17 - 0:57:21] ▶
him after that. We don't know. Never heard from him again.
[0:57:21 - 0:57:23] ▶
analogy relates to this? Yeah. Good question, because I'm glad you picked up on that. Um,
[0:58:16 - 0:58:21] ▶
figure out what your version of it is and, and, and kind of go from there slowly, step by step.
[1:05:15 - 1:05:21] ▶
I almost think control is almost a misnomer too. Like having some sort of deliberate intention
[1:05:21 - 1:05:26] ▶
about, you know, I'll talk about, we've just talked about, about the UFO situation, the connection to
[1:15:16 - 1:15:21] ▶
the Kennedy assassination. We'll do that. Right. So I did that. Um, and it was at that symposium
[1:15:21 - 1:15:31] ▶
where the UFO project was concerned. And I said, you know, this is, this is the problem. You know,
[1:16:16 - 1:16:21] ▶
there's a lot of weird stuff here. You're not being told the weird stuff. I only happened to know it
[1:16:21 - 1:16:26] ▶
Jim Mars, who was sick that year and who passed away that year. He was a good friend.
[1:20:17 - 1:20:21] ▶
no, that's not how this works. Right. That is not how it works. What do you mean? Of course it,
[1:20:59 - 1:21:03] ▶
no, it's not how it works. Right. Did you listen to me the last half hour? No, it doesn't work.
[1:21:03 - 1:21:07] ▶
So there's been that pushback. They want to believe in this. It gives them a format. It gives
[1:21:07 - 1:21:12] ▶
them, it gives them freedom to make shit up. Yeah.
[1:21:12 - 1:21:15] ▶
That's what it is. And when you throw a cult in there, you can make shit up.
[1:21:15 - 1:21:19] ▶
Well, it almost feels like based on your discussing the interconnection between the JFK assassination
[1:21:19 - 1:21:26] ▶
and the UFO phenomenon, that there are sort of reality managers, like maybe even like above
[1:21:26 - 1:21:32] ▶
humanity that can like choreograph or pull the strings on things.
[1:21:32 - 1:21:36] ▶
Well, there's, and, and, and that does have to do with the occult. Like I think of,
[1:21:36 - 1:21:41] ▶
you know, the borderland society, this sort of occult research group, like in the forties,
[1:21:41 - 1:21:45] ▶
they were aware of certain UFO crashes before the government was. And there's documentation of that.
[1:21:45 - 1:21:50] ▶
You have stuff with James Jesus Angleton and Hugh Angleton being involved in the Knights of Malta and
[1:21:50 - 1:21:56] ▶
certain secret societies. And so, and then obviously a lot of the early CIA was sort of skull and bones.
[1:21:56 - 1:22:02] ▶
And The Cloud That Lifted is about the assassination of a political leader,
[1:24:17 - 1:24:21] ▶
happening. You're getting some download or is it some sort of predictive programming where you are
[1:27:17 - 1:27:21] ▶
causing the future by writing about these things?
[1:27:21 - 1:27:24] ▶
Muslim and in the case, my case of, of living there, Javanese, right? People from the island of
[1:30:15 - 1:30:21] ▶
Java, they have their own traditions, their own ways of doing things. They visit graves.
[1:30:21 - 1:30:26] ▶
is the grave of a famous prince who had died on that spot. And his grave is there. But a lot of
[1:31:15 - 1:31:21] ▶
other graves as well. It's a cemetery, an Islamic cemetery. And you go there because you need
[1:31:21 - 1:31:28] ▶
cargo cult was a couple of pages long. And the, the idea was, take the cargo cult, uh, concept and
[1:38:21 - 1:38:30] ▶
it's always this creature that comes down usually from space. What are examples and kind of mythology?
[1:40:15 - 1:40:21] ▶
Well, the famous one, I guess, is Oannes in the Sumerian myths, right? So here is a god who lands
[1:40:21 - 1:40:27] ▶
we try to make it a couple of times. I hope I don't bore anybody with it is the fact that everybody has
[1:45:15 - 1:45:21] ▶
a piece of the story. Everybody's got a piece of what happened, you know, and we ignore the other
[1:45:21 - 1:45:27] ▶
have some sort of ontological model of reality that comes from like a lot of data around this stuff.
[1:47:15 - 1:47:21] ▶
Yeah. That's our impression. We, we, we got into a point in 2015, I guess it was that, um,
[1:47:21 - 1:47:29] ▶
freezing their asses off. Prometheus came down and said, here's fire, get warm, you know? And the
[1:49:17 - 1:49:21] ▶
gods didn't like that. So they punished, punished Prometheus. You know, you're going to get chained
[1:49:21 - 1:49:25] ▶
but you do talk about it because you write, you wrote a book about it, you know, Stairway to Heaven.
[1:54:17 - 1:54:21] ▶
All my books are about it. Yeah. Okay. Fascinating. They're all chapters of one book.
[1:54:21 - 1:54:25] ▶
the, the, the, the original papers. Didn't they go to Mount Kailash looking for some underground
[1:57:17 - 1:57:21] ▶
civilization there? Among other things. Yeah. But they, they went all the way into Tibet.
[1:57:21 - 1:57:26] ▶
So I had access to that information and I'm going, oh my God, this was all going on. This was not made
[2:00:16 - 2:00:21] ▶
up, right? Pauls and Bergier who wrote Morning of the Magicians, they were kind of winging it a little
[2:00:21 - 2:00:27] ▶
right? And the Nordics become the solution to this problem. We're really Aryans. We're really
[2:06:16 - 2:06:21] ▶
Nordics. We don't belong in this situation that we're in. You know, we're in this, we lost the
[2:06:21 - 2:06:26] ▶
So with 3000 scientists in Russia, with Nazi presence all around the world after the war,
[2:11:21 - 2:11:29] ▶
within a few months because they didn't have a lot of financing to continue this for a long time.
[2:13:17 - 2:13:21] ▶
God has to be, I think he had a, I think,
[2:16:20 - 2:16:21] ▶
Whoa. So there was contact being made.
[2:20:59 - 2:21:00] ▶
Of course that was shut down once it was found out, but it was going on for a while. Nobody
[2:21:00 - 2:21:05] ▶
knows what was being discussed.
[2:21:05 - 2:21:06] ▶
Was it contact between the former Nazi factions of both? Wow. That's pretty fascinating. Yeah. I
[2:21:06 - 2:21:11] ▶
think there's some story of Wernher von Braun's, you know, um, giving off trade secrets at the border
[2:21:11 - 2:21:16] ▶
in Mexico or whatever. So there is maybe this like rogue Nazi network post-World War II that was like
[2:21:16 - 2:21:22] ▶
still vital for a little bit. If there was a rogue Nazi network post-World War II in the United States,
[2:21:22 - 2:21:28] ▶
how much more likely it was that it was in other countries where they didn't care.
[2:21:28 - 2:21:31] ▶
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Even more likely. So more likely. So there is a likelihood,
[2:21:31 - 2:21:37] ▶
statistical likeliness. Let's, let's not a, you know, statistics can be bent either way,
[2:21:37 - 2:21:41] ▶
but statistically there was so many Nazi assets around the world, money that we couldn't trace.
[2:21:41 - 2:21:46] ▶
Yeah. Assets we couldn't trace. Technology. I mean,
[2:21:46 - 2:21:50] ▶
that famous submarine that they stopped, it had the Messerschmitt, you know, in pieces in it and all the
[2:21:50 - 2:21:54] ▶
uranium, you know, and the engineers that was going to Japan that supposedly Oppenheimer visited
[2:21:54 - 2:22:00] ▶
I wouldn't, I would not a very realistic point of view. I think religion is of one kind or another,
[2:26:21 - 2:26:27] ▶
vis-a-vis any other civilian that I've ever met maybe. And so can I ask you a few questions about
[2:30:15 - 2:30:21] ▶
just what you think about the UFO legacy program?
[2:30:21 - 2:30:24] ▶
realist in what he did. He believed in the philosophies behind a lot of these things.
[2:39:17 - 2:39:21] ▶
So this was something where you change the minds, the hearts and minds of people as
[2:40:17 - 2:40:21] ▶
possibly extraterrestrials visiting earth? You know, it's, are there not human intelligences? Yes.
[2:46:14 - 2:46:21] ▶
Yeah. Bluntly. Okay. Yeah. What levitated your table decades ago? Yeah. And maybe go to the
[2:46:21 - 2:46:27] ▶
of course there's tourists there, but people don't, they're not touchy feely in that part of the world.
[2:53:18 - 2:53:21] ▶
What was that? Have you mulled over the meaning of it? And has anything else come up since?
[2:54:16 - 2:54:21] ▶
No, I've gotten, I've gotten stuff since then, but it hasn't been that specific, that direct. I mean,
[2:54:21 - 2:54:27] ▶
So that happened. So, you know, then I think, okay, I'll make note of this. And I, I emailed, uh,
[2:55:13 - 2:55:21] ▶
Whitley Streeper. I said, if anybody knows how to make sense of something like this, it'll be Whitley.
[2:55:21 - 2:55:25] ▶
Lavenda. That sounds sad. That sounds dangerous.
[2:58:18 - 2:58:21] ▶
The sorcerer's apprentice. There you go. So, yeah, uh, that was an interesting thing because I,
[2:58:21 - 2:58:28] ▶
but you are the inspiration for Johnny Depp's character in the ninth, in Roman Polanski's
[3:19:16 - 3:19:21] ▶
famous movie, the ninth gate, which is also, I think Jacques Vallée's favorite movie.
[3:19:21 - 3:19:26] ▶
the B roll stuff. And they look for the, you know, uh, uh, location shots and stuff like that.
[3:20:16 - 3:20:21] ▶
And some of the movie takes place in New York. So there are people in New York working for Polanski
[3:20:21 - 3:20:26] ▶
it's the Johnny Depp character, dark clothing, the whole thing. And the book business guy,
[3:20:56 - 3:21:00] ▶
I was always in and out of bookstores, right in that outfit. And I was, uh, involved with Weiser's
[3:21:00 - 3:21:06] ▶
bookstore, which in New York city was the famous occult bookstore with a pedigree going back a long
[3:21:06 - 3:21:12] ▶
time. And you came upon maybe the occult book, which is the Necronomicon. Right. Which is like this,
[3:21:12 - 3:21:18] ▶
like the most forbidden book that you're not supposed to possess, which ends up kind of being true for
[3:21:18 - 3:21:23] ▶
Johnny Depp and his character as well, where you're really not supposed to possess all three books.
[3:21:23 - 3:21:27] ▶
You see, but they had the story already. So I fit unbeknownst to me, because I hadn't read the novel
[3:21:27 - 3:21:32] ▶
at that time. Right. But I fit the whole, the whole thing. It was as though it was scripted.
[3:21:32 - 3:21:37] ▶
So the people around Depp are saying, this actually happened. This story actually happened to this guy,
[3:21:37 - 3:21:44] ▶
you know, and we have all this information about him and we talked to people who knew him and stuff.
[3:21:44 - 3:21:48] ▶
And so that kind of got into the film from what I understand. I had forgotten all about this to tell
[3:21:48 - 3:21:52] ▶
you the truth until a few months ago, I was talking to a guy who makes a videographer. Actually, I think
[3:21:52 - 3:21:59] ▶
he's based in, in Florida as well. And he came down to meet me just a couple of months ago. And he says,
[3:21:59 - 3:22:04] ▶
put her name on it, on witchcraft and made it look kind of accessible because she was like the sweet lady
[3:27:16 - 3:27:21] ▶
type, with an acerbic wit, by the way. So she was being, she was openly involved with operation often,
[3:27:21 - 3:27:30] ▶
It was a side show, basically. The major show was the drugs and the hypnosis that was full bore going
[3:28:15 - 3:28:21] ▶
on. Massive psychological conditioning undergone in Montreal, Canada, for instance, at an institute
[3:28:21 - 3:28:28] ▶
And yet you find it everywhere in ancient art, right? I found a diagram from ancient China,
[3:37:21 - 3:37:27] ▶
Anyway, the God of medicine. Yes. The, the, the twin serpents around a central staff,
[3:38:17 - 3:38:21] ▶
the Russian Orthodox church, the staff for the bishop is exactly that. Two serpents around a
[3:38:21 - 3:38:26] ▶
mystics will interpret this as being valuable specifically to, to behold the throne of God
[3:40:15 - 3:40:21] ▶
and to come back down and to tell everybody they've seen it. That's it. End of story. Not to be,
[3:40:21 - 3:40:27] ▶
with UFO research. Like it's somehow you often find it's like, this feels like Dante's Inferno.
[3:46:15 - 3:46:21] ▶
Yeah. It's like, it was just weird vibes everywhere. Yeah.
[3:46:21 - 3:46:24] ▶
So, so do you, do you feel like you came out of your interactions with some of these people?
[3:52:17 - 3:52:21] ▶
Cause like TTSA, which you were involved with, had a lot of really high up impressive government
[3:52:21 - 3:52:27] ▶
best, you know, but they're all very, you know, and, uh, we would get close to something and we get
[3:54:16 - 3:54:21] ▶
some good information. I would write scribbling like mad. I have all those notes, right? Just scribbling on the
[3:54:21 - 3:54:26] ▶
Paul Jayne- Nothing, nothing particularly unnotable. We would try to act, ask blatant questions like,
[3:56:15 - 3:56:21] ▶
you know, how many, how many captured, you know, spacecraft do you have? How many saucers are there?
[3:56:21 - 3:56:25] ▶
bunch of scientists and researchers who could be working on this program, on this problem who are not,
[3:58:16 - 3:58:21] ▶
you know, people that we need to be focused on this are not because they don't have the clearances
[3:58:21 - 3:58:26] ▶
parts of an elephant and their left hand's not talking to the right. It's not coordinated.
[3:59:17 - 3:59:21] ▶
All of a sudden you have a multipolar world and tensions are rising and the impetus to figure out
[3:59:21 - 3:59:27] ▶
And his wife had a traumatic.
[4:00:21 - 4:00:22] ▶
of the open source stuff as like civilian researchers are. And at best you have vital
[4:03:15 - 4:03:21] ▶
Iamblichus, you know, there's some others with, you know, St. Thomas Aquinas with taxonomies,
[4:06:17 - 4:06:21] ▶
Sure. Hierarchies of angels and demons. Do you think what people experience today in the form of
[4:06:21 - 4:06:27] ▶
Lucifer, the loosest trust, like, like there's this VP of, um, space systems at Lockheed Martin,
[4:08:15 - 4:08:21] ▶
this guy, Jim Ryder. Have you heard of him? Oh yeah.
[4:08:21 - 4:08:23] ▶
Well, it's often like Ganon and Evola would base their thinking off of Eastern thought actually in
[4:16:14 - 4:16:21] ▶
the Yuga periods and the Kali Yuga is the current period. And so you get this decline of, you know,
[4:16:21 - 4:16:27] ▶
take the nuts and bolts guys and you push them a little bit and they don't know what they're
[4:20:18 - 4:20:21] ▶
looking for. I mean, we had, um, uh, one of them working for us at, at to the stars, right? Yeah.
[4:20:21 - 4:20:28] ▶
behind it and long history in front of it on the other side. At this point, I don't know what's going
[4:20:56 - 4:21:00] ▶
on. We know that we were getting close to something. We were developing relationships
[4:21:00 - 4:21:04] ▶
with the military, with their laboratories to do the kind of testing only they could do. And then
[4:21:04 - 4:21:09] ▶
COVID hit when COVID hit all the relationship with the military really stopped. They apologized. They
[4:21:09 - 4:21:15] ▶
said nothing else we can do. We're being told we're going to cut this down, cut this down, cut this down.
[4:21:15 - 4:21:19] ▶
So they cut down almost everything they were going to do with us. I think maybe everything
[4:21:19 - 4:21:23] ▶
that they were doing with us at that point. After that, I don't, I lost track of the, of the trail
[4:21:23 - 4:21:28] ▶
of where that was going, you know? Um, but that's, that's something that fell out in the desert
[4:21:28 - 4:21:32] ▶
somewhere out in the West. I think, I think that, I think it originally went through Art Bell maybe,
[4:21:32 - 4:21:37] ▶
or something, or somebody gave it to him. Yeah. Arts parts. Yeah. Arts parts, maybe something like that.
[4:21:37 - 4:21:42] ▶
And it wound its way eventually to Tom. Did you touch the material? No, I didn't touch it myself.
[4:21:42 - 4:21:47] ▶
Okay. Do you see it at all or no? Okay. It's so fascinating. And then you have a really
[4:21:47 - 4:21:53] ▶
interesting connection with Bob Lazar, which is you worked at the same company that he did.
[4:21:53 - 4:21:58] ▶
Yeah. Very remote connection, but it was there. I happened to meet Bob Lazar for the first time
[4:21:58 - 4:22:03] ▶
It's just, it's interesting. The thing is that, you know, I don't know how well.
[4:27:18 - 4:27:21] ▶
Yeah. We've exchanged emails. And of course he was part of to the stars and I met him here,
[4:27:21 - 4:27:26] ▶
step is the big one. If you can find a way to achieve that kind of ascent to the very first level,
[4:39:14 - 4:39:21] ▶
to the part where you know, not that you can think about it, not that you can brag about it, not that
[4:39:21 - 4:39:26] ▶
That's awesome. Cool.
[4:40:19 - 4:40:21] ▶
And thanks to Lincoln for bringing this together as well.
[4:40:21 - 4:40:24] ▶