the

we just had this lady on the other day who was friends with this dude that i just learned about

[0:00:00 - 0:00:11] ▶

there's the title of that book what was it swastikas and flying saucers yeah well joseph

[0:00:26 - 0:00:30] ▶

as the nazi ufo guy okay like that was really his original training yeah was in um what's it called

[0:00:36 - 0:00:45] ▶

he's like a bishop in the in the in the catholic church of of russia or something yeah i think

[0:00:53 - 0:00:57] ▶

a really highly intelligent man of course and he got into studying the nazi ufo connection and looking

[0:01:04 - 0:01:11] ▶

at the foo fighters and uh particularly in europe as potentially nazi third reich technology and so

[0:01:11 - 0:01:18] ▶

he went into that in several books however you know the real the thing with joseph i mean you

[0:01:18 - 0:01:24] ▶

open to an extraterrestrial interpretation of the ufo phenomenon over time because like in the early

[0:01:29 - 0:01:35] ▶

tech earthbound secret tech and i don't think that he's in that place at least the last few times that

[0:01:41 - 0:01:46] ▶

beautiful so i always love uh the opportunity when the opportunity arises to talk to somebody

[0:02:13 - 0:02:18] ▶

in this stuff just you know for a few years recently since like the emergence of youtube um but i think it

[0:02:32 - 0:02:37] ▶

was like the first one was james fox then uh jason georgiani steven greer these types of folks

[0:02:37 - 0:02:44] ▶

and uh you i've noticed that you've been in a lot of some of like the biggest documentaries on this

[0:02:44 - 0:02:50] ▶

brief summary of how you got into the stuff in the first place and what you've been doing ever since

[0:03:01 - 0:03:04] ▶

so um i got involved in this subject a little over 30 years ago so it was in the like 1993 94

[0:03:12 - 0:03:20] ▶

cold war studies at the university of rochester in upstate new york and i was very much into that

[0:03:26 - 0:03:33] ▶

secret which is kind of a classic in the ufo field and uh it was the subtitle of that book that really

[0:03:53 - 0:03:59] ▶

caught my attention the worldwide ufo cover-up and i was like oh wow it's like it's 1994 and

[0:03:59 - 0:04:05] ▶

that was really my question so i bought the book and i like the book it's a great book and at the

[0:04:49 - 0:04:54] ▶

same time i got on to what was then the baby version of the internet uh all of the usenet groups

[0:04:54 - 0:04:59] ▶

there not something to this is this a waste of time uh like all of the other people in the academic

[0:05:13 - 0:05:18] ▶

basically the presidency of harry truman i'm looking at the early cold war 1950 and i'm thinking

[0:05:23 - 0:05:29] ▶

obtained through freedom of information which itself didn't really get going until the late 1970s

[0:05:58 - 0:06:04] ▶

these flying saucers that the government was telling the world nothing to this it's all hoaxes

[0:06:25 - 0:06:32] ▶

you read uh statements by the director of scientific intelligence of the cia in 1952 a man named h

[0:06:55 - 0:07:03] ▶

marshall chanwell who's telling his boss walter beetle smith director of the cia

[0:07:03 - 0:07:07] ▶

investigating and then that opens up like a thousand other questions like where are the other academicians

[0:07:35 - 0:07:41] ▶

where's the university crowd looking into this you would think if you want to debunk this fine debunk it

[0:07:41 - 0:07:46] ▶

let's look at the actual evidence here and deal with it but they would never deal with it they would never

[0:07:46 - 0:07:52] ▶

deal with the fact that like why was the first director of the cia a man named roscoe helen cotter

[0:07:52 - 0:07:57] ▶

a member of a ufo organization called nikep in the in the 1950s until he clearly under pressure

[0:07:57 - 0:08:07] ▶

resigned in 1962 just before nikep was trying to get congressional hearings back then so the cia was

[0:08:07 - 0:08:13] ▶

created the same year roswell happened right or was that a year no 1947 1947 right although you could

[0:08:13 - 0:08:19] ▶

see the predecessor organizations the oss during world war and then something called the cig which was in

[0:08:19 - 0:08:24] ▶

1946 going into 47 and then out of that you get the central intelligence agency that's all with the

[0:08:24 - 0:08:30] ▶

happened at roswell what i think happened at roswell was i think there was the recovery of

[0:08:37 - 0:08:43] ▶

how general corso i think it was had some sort of report of the roswell crash and he mentioned stuff

[0:09:01 - 0:09:10] ▶

philip corso he wasn't a general but he was um an officer in the u.s army and uh in the late 50s early

[0:09:18 - 0:09:25] ▶

the day after roswell was published in 1997 he stated yes my assignment at that time was to um

[0:09:32 - 0:09:40] ▶

that doesn't debunk the roswell i think corso is very much uh stating that roswell did happen as

[0:10:05 - 0:10:11] ▶

something extraordinary but like so the the the implications of that would mean that either a

[0:10:11 - 0:10:17] ▶

some of the alien tech i don't think that's impossible at all so velcro yeah i don't really

[0:10:48 - 0:10:53] ▶

know if the aliens use velcro be kind of a handy thing uh for your sneakers or whatever footwear they got

[0:10:53 - 0:10:58] ▶

a lot of these things material science uh i think notoriously is said to be one of the most important

[0:11:14 - 0:11:20] ▶

you know just the other day hal putoff is on rogan and he's talking yeah yeah and and hal has talked

[0:11:26 - 0:11:32] ▶

about the so-called meta material so what is the meta material it's this artifact that uh was sent out

[0:11:32 - 0:11:39] ▶

to art bell back in the day in the 90s and then art uh entrusted to linda moulton how and then linda

[0:11:39 - 0:11:46] ▶

to manufacture um and so that would be the material science and that would be an important thing like

[0:12:04 - 0:12:11] ▶

you'd need to master if you want to do what flying saucers do you need to have the materials that are

[0:12:11 - 0:12:18] ▶

sufficient to be able to withstand whatever you need them to do or in the case of what how speculated

[0:12:18 - 0:12:23] ▶

waves in the terahertz range when i heard him say that the first time i'm like what the hell are you

[0:12:33 - 0:12:39] ▶

it's in the skin of the craft itself yeah that's a really kind of nifty solution and maybe that's

[0:13:12 - 0:13:18] ▶

part of what they do wow yeah the only uh my introduction to this whole anti-gravity theory was

[0:13:18 - 0:13:25] ▶

the bob lazar story and how he talked about that little uh basketball size uh reactor yeah being inside

[0:13:25 - 0:13:31] ▶

the craft or whatever and it somehow like repelled things away and he explained it it was a great

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how these craft do what they do this episode of the podcast is brought to you by my good friends at

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always a document kind of a person i wanted to know uh what was the as far as we can understand

[0:15:51 - 0:15:57] ▶

the classified attitude that was taken during the 1940s and 50s especially uh that's where i started

[0:15:57 - 0:16:04] ▶

and i i will just say and we can go as far as we decide here but that the conclusion was very clear

[0:16:04 - 0:16:12] ▶

that the u.s national security community knew some elements knew this was real this was not made by the

[0:16:12 - 0:16:19] ▶

as i was able to scrounge them up at the time this is back in the 1990s and um and i published my first

[0:16:37 - 0:16:43] ▶

was the start of my entry into this field back in the early 2000s and i have never left it's it's kept

[0:16:56 - 0:17:01] ▶

me um in its grip ever since so your theory was that the your conclusion was that the national

[0:17:01 - 0:17:06] ▶

at all over the years yes it's it's developed and it's deepened i guess i could say i've never

[0:17:13 - 0:17:18] ▶

i've never since then formed the conclusion that it's fake or that it's not a concern i've never gone

[0:17:18 - 0:17:27] ▶

he was the first uh kind of famous person to endorse my work it was like great oh wow moonwalking

[0:17:42 - 0:17:49] ▶

astronaut and but he said to me look your your theory about the cover-up is not exactly right

[0:17:49 - 0:17:56] ▶

it's like he said he believed that my theory was that it's like the government and

[0:17:56 - 0:18:03] ▶

like the president's in on and everyone's in on the secrecy and i don't really know if i truly

[0:18:03 - 0:18:09] ▶

fingers in this pie and it's not all uh federal government and um and so over the years like

[0:18:22 - 0:18:29] ▶

would drop me a little little drops along the way little breadcrumbs um and um indicating like

[0:18:35 - 0:18:45] ▶

something else and i don't know the full answer to that to this day but uh but that's a big part of

[0:19:07 - 0:19:13] ▶

this so you're dealing with a kind of a labyrinth of secrecy and to the extent that it's privatized

[0:19:13 - 0:19:20] ▶

my years of looking into this i have to say uh one of the uh biggest turning points for me in this

[0:19:31 - 0:19:39] ▶

whole topic was that documentary that you were a part of um about paul benowitz um was it the magic

[0:19:39 - 0:19:47] ▶

a well done movie and uh two it really like was eye-opening to see to like the the extent that the

[0:19:58 - 0:20:05] ▶

uh the intelligence people and the people in the air force nsa would all work together to

[0:20:05 - 0:20:12] ▶

basically scramble the mind of one individual just to alter public perception of something yeah that's

[0:20:12 - 0:20:20] ▶

an interesting one because to this day uh the interpretation of what happened with paul benowitz

[0:20:20 - 0:20:25] ▶

is it's a that is still an open question in my opinion oh really well to the extent that what

[0:20:25 - 0:20:31] ▶

the reserves kudos for that but the the basic question is what so paul for people who don't

[0:20:57 - 0:21:02] ▶

know this paul benowitz was a uh kind of a small u.s defense contractor in the 1970s he uh lived right

[0:21:02 - 0:21:09] ▶

near kirtland air force base in uh new mexico and he's able to see uh and by he's by the manzano

[0:21:09 - 0:21:16] ▶

becoming uh a hassle and a potential security risk for the people over at kirtland whatever they were

[0:21:45 - 0:21:53] ▶

doing so greg argued and i cannot remember what uh the magic man documentary actually argued here

[0:21:53 - 0:21:59] ▶

i think the claim was that essentially like 30 000 foot view is that he was a conduit of disinformation

[0:21:59 - 0:22:04] ▶

in the ufo community to poison the well of the ufo community because they knew there were soviet spies

[0:22:04 - 0:22:09] ▶

espionage and there's definitely the attempt to muddy the waters of the ufo community but the question

[0:22:16 - 0:22:23] ▶

associated with this who firmly believed he was seeing more than that but also when you look at the

[0:22:52 - 0:22:56] ▶

the uh history of violations of sensitive airspace of u.s bases across the entire u.s this is an old

[0:22:56 - 0:23:05] ▶

story so it's not a unique thing to kirtland it's something that and and through the 1940s and 50s

[0:23:05 - 0:23:11] ▶

that um but the fact that they went in and screwed with him and convinced him that it was aliens

[0:23:23 - 0:23:30] ▶

much involved in all of that wasn't there a part of that documentary where they claimed the nsa moved

[0:23:38 - 0:23:43] ▶

in across the street and was beaming information into his house saying that the aliens were trying

[0:23:43 - 0:23:47] ▶

actually can't remember that so that's that's what i remember from the magic man documentary maybe yeah

[0:23:54 - 0:23:59] ▶

you know maybe yeah and then there was the whole part about the cattle mutilation which was wild

[0:23:59 - 0:24:07] ▶

you know how they were doing the underground testing for they were mining uh is this a myrna

[0:24:07 - 0:24:12] ▶

happening all in the mid and late 70s out in the midwest and out in the rockies and uh and benowitz

[0:24:17 - 0:24:25] ▶

the cattle mutilation i think cattle being lifted up but she was also uh supposedly taken to an

[0:24:47 - 0:24:53] ▶

underground facility herself and leo sprinkle did the regression and benowitz i think was there and

[0:24:53 - 0:25:00] ▶

for psychiatric evaluation like in the late 80s it this really got to him it really messed him up and

[0:25:06 - 0:25:12] ▶

books my second volume of history uh called ufos in the national security state and my my feeling was

[0:25:27 - 0:25:35] ▶

you look at the the mid and late 70s and two important things were happening to threaten

[0:25:35 - 0:25:42] ▶

the secrecy of the ufo subject at that time one was as we mentioned the release of documents of

[0:25:42 - 0:25:47] ▶

freedom of information this was a new thing this had never happened before you know in the 50s and

[0:25:47 - 0:25:53] ▶

60s the u.s air force could say we don't know anything about these ufos i mean it's a little bit

[0:25:53 - 0:25:58] ▶

and they could get away with that until in the late 70s researchers were petitioning the government

[0:26:08 - 0:26:15] ▶

for documents pertaining to ufos and holy cow like they got a lot of them proving that the air force was

[0:26:15 - 0:26:22] ▶

lying they were lying through their teeth for years and so that was one thing so the freedom of

[0:26:22 - 0:26:28] ▶

information act was a threat to the secrecy and if you're if you're on the other side of that trying

[0:26:28 - 0:26:35] ▶

to guard the secrets you have to be thinking what is our exposure here what do we have to worry about

[0:26:35 - 0:26:40] ▶

is if they shake the tree enough is something going to fall out of that tree that's really compromising

[0:26:40 - 0:26:45] ▶

right like that's like what came out was compromising enough but anything worse that's one problem the

[0:26:45 - 0:26:51] ▶

all in the late 70s this all happened at once prong number one was foia prong number two is crash

[0:27:00 - 0:27:04] ▶

retrievals and so we have like people like stanton friedman researching roswell for the first time

[0:27:04 - 0:27:10] ▶

uh there was a researcher no longer around called leonard stringfield who back in the 70s and 80s was

[0:27:16 - 0:27:22] ▶

retrievals it was it was kind of a first like no one was a magnet the way stringfield was at that time

[0:27:29 - 0:27:36] ▶

one was reading but they were coming out and so again if you're managing the secrecy

[0:27:42 - 0:27:47] ▶

uncovers something that's truly compromising that we do not want out and so the theory and i think this

[0:28:00 - 0:28:05] ▶

is probably true is you muddy the waters and you you um put out information that would

[0:28:05 - 0:28:12] ▶

sow the seed of doubt into documents and this is one argument about the mj 12 documents that came

[0:28:12 - 0:28:19] ▶

out in the mid-1980s and it's possible that that's the case and uh and then the the campaign

[0:28:19 - 0:28:25] ▶

kind of the empire strikes back you know you've got all of this uh all of these threats to the

[0:28:29 - 0:28:34] ▶

empire of secrecy and the late 70s early 80s they make the decision in the early 80s like let's um

[0:28:34 - 0:28:41] ▶

do something about that and which is the case like to this day new documents may come out and you've

[0:28:42 - 0:28:47] ▶

with richard dodie and paul benowitz in the it was the 80s that was happening yeah if they were doing

[0:28:58 - 0:29:03] ▶

that in the 80s imagine what they could what they have the ability to do now with the internet it's

[0:29:03 - 0:29:09] ▶

doubt but uh the ufo subject which is the one that i'm most interested in i think definitely

[0:29:29 - 0:29:34] ▶

time and it kind of breaks open the space a little bit where people can talk about this a bit more

[0:29:41 - 0:29:46] ▶

that uh the national security crowd is just going to walk away from the table and say oh yeah here

[0:29:53 - 0:29:59] ▶

there's too many far too many reasons right to maintain this and to fight every step of the way

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it's like are we dealing with a covert op by the government to have a controlled and false release

[0:31:46 - 0:31:54] ▶

but to some extent but there's still the the secrecy group if we can call them that that is

[0:32:13 - 0:32:21] ▶

the way yeah i think um when me when i had jesse michaelson here he was i think he told me that

[0:32:26 - 0:32:32] ▶

as far as like all of the information that exists about this stuff on the internet he's he was saying

[0:32:32 - 0:32:35] ▶

just had this congressional briefing just the other day as we're as we're recording this in the very

[0:33:10 - 0:33:15] ▶

with robert bigelow's national institute for discovery science back in the 90s and early 2000s

[0:33:35 - 0:33:40] ▶

2019 that was a big mess but it was all true davis meets with wilson after wilson had retired from the

[0:33:47 - 0:33:56] ▶

defense intelligence agency he had run the dia and this is connected you interviewed stephen greer so

[0:33:56 - 0:34:03] ▶

stephen greer was very much a part of this so back in 1997 all right greer and edgar mitchell the

[0:34:03 - 0:34:09] ▶

they are beyond the formal control of the us government and so they're trying to get audiences

[0:34:32 - 0:34:38] ▶

who was uh head of intelligence for the joint chiefs of staff at that time this is april 1997

[0:34:42 - 0:34:46] ▶

look into this the head of the joint chiefs yeah well he's head of intelligence for the joint chiefs

[0:34:55 - 0:34:59] ▶

so or he was deputy head of intelligence for the joint chiefs he then became head of intelligence for

[0:35:00 - 0:35:05] ▶

the joint chiefs which was head of the dia so he was important and he goes on a two-month

[0:35:05 - 0:35:12] ▶

uh wild goose chase actually within the pentagon's bureaucratic structure we can go into more detail

[0:35:12 - 0:35:20] ▶

if you want but the short version is he finds a number not just one several special access programs

[0:35:20 - 0:35:26] ▶

that is ultra ultra secret programs dealing with et tech he contacts the managers of one of them

[0:35:26 - 0:35:34] ▶

and uh and he's actually able to get a private in-person meeting with them they are the the program

[0:35:34 - 0:35:43] ▶

manager the security manager and the uh the corporate attorney right for the for this it was a

[0:35:43 - 0:35:49] ▶

private contractor we don't know that it was lockheed but that's what the betting money is so he goes

[0:35:49 - 0:35:53] ▶

uh they've made painfully slow progress in understanding it uh they had what's called the

[0:36:26 - 0:36:32] ▶

bigot list b-i-g-o-t and it's an acronym deriving from world war ii anyway that's the list of people

[0:36:32 - 0:36:38] ▶

who are allowed to be honest and it's like 500 people and wilson's in in uh is reading the list

[0:36:38 - 0:36:44] ▶

he's recognizing very few names from the dod they're almost all in private industry and he says no i need

[0:36:44 - 0:36:51] ▶

complain and he was threatened with his career he's threatened he'd lose a star or two along the way and

[0:37:02 - 0:37:06] ▶

this program and so somehow this got back to edgar mitchell the astronaut and mitchell was in with the

[0:37:40 - 0:37:49] ▶

attempt by the head of intelligence for the joint chiefs to get access to this program and he was denied

[0:38:01 - 0:38:09] ▶

to wilson we want to talk to him so wilson retires in 02 and clearly eric davis who was part of the

[0:38:14 - 0:38:20] ▶

nids group he's the one he goes out and he he interviews wilson he got he he got the scoop and he writes

[0:38:20 - 0:38:28] ▶

2006 and seven six seven 2007 and then um and i read the portion where wilson is telling davis

[0:38:45 - 0:38:59] ▶

this this technology was not made by earth not made by man not by human hands in in the davis notes

[0:38:59 - 0:39:06] ▶

by human hands so they all knew that so davis gets these notes and the only reason those notes leaked out

[0:39:12 - 0:39:19] ▶

um well it got it got leaked out so there was a friend of the family who was able to get some of

[0:39:28 - 0:39:35] ▶

mitchell's documents those documents went to australia and from there they were jpegged and by the early

[0:39:35 - 0:39:43] ▶

part of 2019 they were quietly circulating around like the full notes that davis had written and then

[0:39:43 - 0:39:51] ▶

it leaked out it leaked out enough in the spring of 2019 that i uh took it upon myself to do my own

[0:39:51 - 0:39:57] ▶

no no and i don't think sarfati was part of the sri thing um okay that's put off and uh russell targ

[0:40:15 - 0:40:21] ▶

of people talk about that on this on this show before and it's uh yeah the way he described it with

[0:40:58 - 0:41:02] ▶

rogan was uh it was very very cohesive like it made a lot of sense the way he did it yeah it's

[0:41:02 - 0:41:07] ▶

and the recent congressional yeah so like that was um oh and the reason i brought that up at all yeah

[0:41:14 - 0:41:20] ▶

man in my opinion he has a stellar reputation and so on the on this briefing he's talking about like

[0:41:27 - 0:41:35] ▶

at it i thought oh yeah it looks like that i see these things on x on twitter all the time and i just

[0:42:11 - 0:42:15] ▶

though yeah that got very quickly and and people were just hammering on that and but like the whole

[0:42:19 - 0:42:25] ▶

the mistake okay fine whatever but i don't think that any of that was in bad faith at all i absolutely

[0:42:30 - 0:42:36] ▶

the skeptics now you got davis with these amazing statements you had uh admiral tim gallaudet during

[0:42:45 - 0:42:51] ▶

the briefing with very impressive statements and um christopher mellon who's always on point made very

[0:42:51 - 0:42:56] ▶

mistaken photograph the whole time well the debunkers i mean that's what they'll do you know they'll look

[0:43:04 - 0:43:10] ▶

for the one little thing rather than you look at the big picture of what these other

[0:43:10 - 0:43:15] ▶

about the news stories that have come out in the last week from our from this moment that i'm here

[0:43:20 - 0:43:24] ▶

we're sleeping pulled up here yeah i touched the ufo that's 12 days ago wow yeah yeah so anyway we had

[0:44:26 - 0:44:33] ▶

that story then we had um trying to get these in order oh matthew brown who's uh the uh latest we

[0:44:33 - 0:44:41] ▶

we had uh we had we had put off on rogan we had the congressional briefing and then just yesterday

[0:44:49 - 0:44:55] ▶

gregory this was put out in the daily mail uh by josh um boom no josh uh forgive me he's a friend i like

[0:45:03 - 0:45:13] ▶

him it'll come uh anyway that came out in the daily mail what was it about was the he was he was an air

[0:45:13 - 0:45:20] ▶

not have the ability to do tilt at an angle while hovering uh rotate this way rotate that way

[0:46:11 - 0:46:17] ▶

stuff he said i was i asked him where do we get this and he said the guy just pointed up and indicating

[0:46:23 - 0:46:30] ▶

but think of this in the last less than two weeks those all of those have come out like that's

[0:46:39 - 0:46:47] ▶

with eric davis and all those guys we're looking at a kind of pile-on effect you know with uh the

[0:47:10 - 0:47:16] ▶

never in all of the history of ufo research and that's this is something i can speak very

[0:47:29 - 0:47:34] ▶

confidently about there has never been anything like the time that we're in now this is this is

[0:47:34 - 0:47:39] ▶

unprecedented and where it will lead is a really good question yeah yeah so so over the last couple

[0:47:39 - 0:47:46] ▶

this roller coaster of emotions on the ufo topic from being a i get burnt out on it super easily

[0:47:53 - 0:47:58] ▶

nobody can no like it doesn't matter what the truth is because there's just everything's out there

[0:48:26 - 0:48:31] ▶

that and as far as the burnout goes i i'm totally i've done this for 30 years right and my wife could

[0:48:35 - 0:48:41] ▶

i can't do ufos anymore like in the old days i would go to like two three in the morning just like

[0:48:47 - 0:48:51] ▶

and nowadays like i do it in the morning and the afternoons and then i have to i have to end it yeah

[0:48:52 - 0:48:57] ▶

what's going on the reason uh that i i still i very much believe that the significant portion of

[0:49:02 - 0:49:10] ▶

this phenomenon is from non-human intelligence the reason i believe that is i look at the earliest

[0:49:10 - 0:49:17] ▶

history of this uh particularly the early like the post-world war ii but even there are some very

[0:49:17 - 0:49:26] ▶

well and so when you look at some of these early cases and then particularly when you read uh the

[0:49:34 - 0:49:41] ▶

with a secret us black budget project it just doesn't because because all the intelligence officers

[0:49:46 - 0:49:53] ▶

that we know of at the time in the 40s were looking into this and there just is there's nothing

[0:49:53 - 0:49:59] ▶

like you know third third reich tech and all of that i mean there's definitely the horton brothers

[0:50:20 - 0:50:27] ▶

which was yeah yeah yeah there's the horton brothers and uh and i think now i think we're seeing

[0:50:27 - 0:50:33] ▶

more and more support for the idea of a 1933 italian recovery right italian this is i think

[0:50:33 - 0:50:43] ▶

uh perspectives coming in on this uh the real man who researched this is an italian researcher named

[0:50:56 - 0:51:02] ▶

roberto pinotti who looked at a lot of the original documents that do exist in italian from 1933.

[0:51:02 - 0:51:09] ▶

and um interesting so i think yes like this goes back farther in time than a lot of the american

[0:51:10 - 0:51:18] ▶

i think there's even in the us there were prior cases to roswell but certainly this 1933 case

[0:51:23 - 0:51:29] ▶

is so you you think the the fact that these cases or crash recoveries retrievals whatever you want to

[0:51:29 - 0:51:35] ▶

call them they go back so far earlier than the the 1940s you think that points to it being of

[0:51:35 - 0:51:41] ▶

paper i highly recommend people read it and and i think his take and he just mentioned this the other

[0:52:09 - 0:52:16] ▶

i would imagine that the extraterrestrial hypothesis actually still makes more sense to me than anything

[0:52:30 - 0:52:37] ▶

possible even despite the vast distances to go interstellar if you can manipulate space-time in

[0:52:54 - 0:53:03] ▶

some way bending space-time we have math for that ghan and miguel alcubierre in the 90s apparently came

[0:53:03 - 0:53:09] ▶

up with some version of warp drive mathematically the problem is finding the amount of energy

[0:53:09 - 0:53:14] ▶

sufficient to do it but same thing with time i think that's the same thing with time travel right

[0:53:14 - 0:53:19] ▶

think the fact that they come from another place still makes the most sense to me uh the fact that we

[0:53:32 - 0:53:40] ▶

would be of interest makes a lot of sense to me the fact that earth would be a very interesting place

[0:53:40 - 0:53:46] ▶

also makes a lot of sense to me i think all of that makes perfect sense that if you have the ability

[0:53:46 - 0:53:53] ▶

could they actually have the ability to detect advanced consciousness i don't know maybe they can

[0:54:18 - 0:54:22] ▶

life in this universe but how common really would planets like ours be we have we're in the goldilocks

[0:54:40 - 0:54:49] ▶

zone but it takes a lot more than that right we have the moon isn't we have the moon incredible which

[0:54:49 - 0:54:55] ▶

is uh it's it's uh what's the word it's the perfect terraforming device it's one i think it's one

[0:54:55 - 0:55:03] ▶

twentieth the size of the sun and one twentieth the distance from the sun i think i'm getting that

[0:55:03 - 0:55:07] ▶

math right oh it's a lot less than one twentieth the sun maybe maybe i'm maybe i'm getting that

[0:55:07 - 0:55:11] ▶

math wrong steve maybe you can correct me with the uh the fractions there anyways the fractions are

[0:55:11 - 0:55:15] ▶

exact the exact uh size comparison to the sun and the exact distance from the sun sun is equal so it

[0:55:15 - 0:55:21] ▶

it if if that's a significant part the fact that it's a stabilizer of our environment is very

[0:55:26 - 0:55:31] ▶

significant uh it's it's always got one side turned to the earth that's i can't remember the word for

[0:55:31 - 0:55:36] ▶

that but that could be significant it's totally locked yeah thank you steve what's the fractions of

[0:55:36 - 0:55:41] ▶

the distance the distance ratio and the size ratio find that and then it is you know it is the perfect

[0:55:41 - 0:55:46] ▶

evolve in the water but then we have enough land out of the water that life can crawl up and evolve on land

[0:56:08 - 0:56:16] ▶

that's that can't be very common now the universe is big enough that you could think all right maybe

[0:56:31 - 0:56:37] ▶

allowed us to hit the sweet spot we developed these hands that can do things and manipulate our

[0:57:25 - 0:57:29] ▶

that given the proper conditions right and i'm going to guess that you know in enough parts of the

[0:57:34 - 0:57:41] ▶

universe those conditions have existed so that you then develop life and then it gets to the the critical

[0:57:41 - 0:57:47] ▶

we're developing artifact you know strong ai sure and uh all the other technologies that'll go along with it

[0:57:54 - 0:57:59] ▶

nanotech and who the hell knows what quantum computing and what kind of crazy

[0:57:59 - 0:58:03] ▶

by the requirements of constantly developing that intelligence in other words

[0:58:20 - 0:58:27] ▶

uh it's not about like our society isn't about the human race anymore it's really about

[0:58:27 - 0:58:34] ▶

meeting the needs of the demands of a highly integrated digitally advanced artificially intelligent

[0:58:35 - 0:58:43] ▶

the system and we're serving the system that is becoming ever more complex and and that intelligence will

[0:58:47 - 0:58:55] ▶

just kind of take off on its own because i think it's the intelligence that's the dominant factor

[0:58:55 - 0:59:00] ▶

actually ever thinks that or if i'm the only person but this is what i i've come to believe like we serve

[0:59:06 - 0:59:12] ▶

we serve the system that we have helped to create but really we're just we are simply actors we're just

[0:59:12 - 0:59:23] ▶

we're the caterpillar yeah we're like the servants of of what high intelligence demands and we we're

[0:59:23 - 0:59:31] ▶

and you know the instant you step outside that sweat's going to be on you like morning dew and the

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because all that we do is we adapt to the environments that we live in and we are now radically changing

[1:01:23 - 1:01:29] ▶

technology right yeah in the last 10 000 years we're not the same as we were back then so uh and

[1:01:49 - 1:01:54] ▶

going to look like uh the you know the problem with our future is that every every new technological

[1:02:10 - 1:02:20] ▶

leap you make whether it's mastering the use of fire or stone tools or now working at it you know

[1:02:21 - 1:02:29] ▶

dependent on it and then not only that but the fact that you have fire means you have to develop all

[1:02:47 - 1:02:53] ▶

these other technologies because we have to maintain the fire we have to protect the fire we have to

[1:02:53 - 1:02:58] ▶

find and process the right kinds of wood like all of that that that prompts further intellectual

[1:02:59 - 1:03:07] ▶

you know going back to this you know this technology conversation and the evolution of human beings

[1:03:49 - 1:03:55] ▶

one of the ideas that i've been throwing around is the idea of like this this esp telekinesis having

[1:04:05 - 1:04:15] ▶

like ancient human beings right before we had the development of language before we had the

[1:04:28 - 1:04:36] ▶

been uh hashing around for a couple of years excuse me i totally believe that that's the case we actually

[1:05:13 - 1:05:18] ▶

are uh the brain capacity of the human being today is less than it was among um our ancestors even more

[1:05:18 - 1:05:27] ▶

than 10 000 years ago i think it's like the amount of a golf ball or no more than that i think right uh

[1:05:27 - 1:05:32] ▶

the brain's expensive i mean in terms of energy like it's it's not free and so you you have to have

[1:05:48 - 1:05:54] ▶

about microtubules and the brain and the ability to access quantum information in some way yeah and

[1:06:12 - 1:06:18] ▶

i'm probably saying this wrong in countless ways but but essentially that we have the capacity to

[1:06:18 - 1:06:25] ▶

in this solar system um all the different species that exist on earth i think out of so this is kind

[1:06:59 - 1:07:06] ▶

there's over two million species of animals i didn't mean to interrupt you isn't he the one who um

[1:07:11 - 1:07:16] ▶

his most recent one but one of them is called the extra tempestrial model and he basically explains

[1:07:33 - 1:07:37] ▶

are 2 million catalogued species on planet earth out of the 2 million 20 of them are hominids out

[1:07:44 - 1:07:51] ▶

of the 20 hominids we are the ones that developed technology that was able to escape the earth

[1:07:51 - 1:07:55] ▶

an extremely rare planet being such a you know having the moon the way it is being this having so

[1:08:03 - 1:08:08] ▶

much water and land being inhabitable teaming with life so now let's go look at all the other

[1:08:08 - 1:08:13] ▶

goldilocks planets that we know of that are so far away how how many of them have the same gravity the

[1:08:13 - 1:08:21] ▶

same atmosphere the same how many of them are water worlds or not and what is the likelihood that those

[1:08:21 - 1:08:28] ▶

beings that evolve on that planet that goldilocks planet are going to be exactly like the 0.0001

[1:08:28 - 1:08:35] ▶

percent right that ended up being human beings on this planet so he's like basically the case he

[1:08:35 - 1:08:40] ▶

going to again i think because what life does life evolves and life adapts and so if the necessary thing

[1:08:57 - 1:09:07] ▶

agree with all of that i think that's entirely right but the fact that our body plan is an anomaly i

[1:09:21 - 1:09:28] ▶

understand what is the mechanism of evolution what is it really is it truly just random mutation or is

[1:09:35 - 1:09:41] ▶

way through adaptation through the need for survival and luck yeah but like this is if you're going to

[1:09:56 - 1:10:09] ▶

might just be the best way to do it because what you need is an ability to manipulate your

[1:10:17 - 1:10:22] ▶

than that i don't know of anything that's been better uh and then the thing is once our you know

[1:10:29 - 1:10:35] ▶

happening elsewhere what do you got steve oh the crab species conversion yeah it's similar to what

[1:11:40 - 1:11:45] ▶

bodies that's just what works in the ocean for little creatures like that independently unrelated yeah

[1:11:50 - 1:11:55] ▶

can due to the environments that they live in develop very similar uh yeah like you know bats

[1:12:04 - 1:12:11] ▶

it's a it's a quantum theory essentially so i guess one of the examples that sheldrake used was this

[1:12:29 - 1:12:35] ▶

a monkey on one side of the world discover some sort of technology figures out how to crack a crack

[1:12:36 - 1:12:41] ▶

some a coconut open with a rock or whatever and at the same time this quantum in this quantum field

[1:12:41 - 1:12:46] ▶

the monkeys on the opposite side of the world figure out the same thing so he thinks that might

[1:12:46 - 1:12:50] ▶

tie into evolution between planets he said this isn't just on the earth yeah hey i'd entertain that i mean

[1:12:50 - 1:12:56] ▶

yeah uh you know there's the secret life of plants which came out over 50 years ago which talks about

[1:12:56 - 1:13:03] ▶

like there's all different ways uh we know that we know that uh fungi under the ground are somehow i

[1:13:03 - 1:13:11] ▶

i don't know so there something like that could sure why not steve what'd you find about the sun anything

[1:13:16 - 1:13:24] ▶

it's certainly less than 120. it's a one to 43 000 is the is the moon's ratio to the uh what the distance

[1:13:32 - 1:13:42] ▶

to the sun and the earth is similar at one to eleven thousand seven hundred i don't know what that means

[1:13:42 - 1:13:49] ▶

i don't know google what's the distance what is the distance of the earth to the sun

[1:13:49 - 1:13:58] ▶

want to um start working on this project involving usos specifically yeah one of the most uh rewarding

[1:14:10 - 1:14:20] ▶

out of the ocean yeah making a big uh display like that and i thought i mean how many how many of these

[1:14:46 - 1:14:54] ▶

person asked me a question about a particular case from 1945 near the aleutian islands a little

[1:15:00 - 1:15:07] ▶

island called adak island out there and there is a case from the summer of 1945 where a u.s

[1:15:07 - 1:15:14] ▶

transport ship world war the pacific war was still happening uh they were returning from japan to

[1:15:14 - 1:15:20] ▶

seattle and they were by the aleutians and apparently an object appeared to have come out of the water

[1:15:20 - 1:15:26] ▶

uh disk-shaped object circles around the ship twice and then takes off so that was a case that

[1:15:26 - 1:15:32] ▶

researcher named ivan sanderson a very good book uh there was another very good book by uh the recently

[1:16:02 - 1:16:09] ▶

doing more of these little mini presentations for my website and it just became by the summer of 2022

[1:16:26 - 1:16:33] ▶

turned out into uh what will be a three-volume project the first volume i just published a couple

[1:16:39 - 1:16:44] ▶

months ago and that and that will be followed by the other two which will be out this year i've

[1:16:44 - 1:16:50] ▶

looking for them because i really wanted cases that uh had some meat on the bones that you could kind

[1:16:58 - 1:17:04] ▶

of work with and give a good description of so i've got about just under 700 uh from around the world

[1:17:04 - 1:17:10] ▶

and some of them go back kind of far not not into the distant distant ancient uh the first really

[1:17:11 - 1:17:18] ▶

though and then they become better over the years uh a lot more detail and i just started collecting

[1:17:25 - 1:17:31] ▶

researchers and i think they're just completely they've gone by the boards and i thought uh they

[1:17:38 - 1:17:45] ▶

more about this phenomenon just looking at some of the statistics that seemed to jump out at me so all in

[1:18:16 - 1:18:23] ▶

all like you you're seeing this phenomenon evolve over especially the last couple of hundred years

[1:18:23 - 1:18:30] ▶

transformation of our own technology especially over the last century i mean it's kind of an amazing

[1:18:49 - 1:18:54] ▶

thing you know you think of where we were in the oceans a little over 100 years ago we the first

[1:18:54 - 1:19:00] ▶

operational submarine didn't deploy until the year 1900 and that was just like you know barely able to

[1:19:00 - 1:19:07] ▶

get in there so we were we were not really going deep into the water right until the 20th century so

[1:19:07 - 1:19:13] ▶

now we have hundreds of them circling the oceans loaded with nuclear warheads exactly exactly so

[1:19:13 - 1:19:19] ▶

now organized into these collective aggressive communities we call nations peering over the fence

[1:19:33 - 1:19:39] ▶

at each other with deadly weapons that could end the entire planet's existence and you're watching

[1:19:39 - 1:19:43] ▶

right because like you can see the whole trajectory you know that like a few generations ago they were

[1:19:56 - 1:20:01] ▶

all living in wooden huts and now wow like here we are to reach the singularity yes exactly so

[1:20:01 - 1:20:07] ▶

and so they're watching but but i have no doubt that we have our own little unique variations on the

[1:20:12 - 1:20:19] ▶

when i was looking at the statistics of this um this whole thing happened because

[1:20:59 - 1:21:04] ▶

i finished writing all the cases and i'm talking with my wife and she's like you know it'd be a great

[1:21:05 - 1:21:09] ▶

the categories like uh what color was the craft what shape was the craft what was it doing with the

[1:21:16 - 1:21:21] ▶

what was it under the water did it emerge from the yeah how close are the witnesses and i'm like

[1:21:21 - 1:21:25] ▶

day or night simple did this happen when the sun was out or when it was dark like very simple

[1:22:05 - 1:22:10] ▶

50 50 50 day versus night and then suddenly starting in the late 60s usos yeah usos exactly

[1:22:19 - 1:22:26] ▶

starting in the late 60s it goes to 75 at night and it was it remained that to this day 75 now i mean

[1:22:27 - 1:22:35] ▶

don't think so i try to pick what i thought were the best and most meaty cases and something seems

[1:22:49 - 1:22:56] ▶

to have happened in the late 60s how do you go about mining all this information do you just look for

[1:22:56 - 1:23:02] ▶

and just scrub the internet for cases involving usos or do you interview specific people ask them a little

[1:23:02 - 1:23:08] ▶

bit of both okay mostly mostly mostly pulling out the information from there are a couple of uh

[1:23:08 - 1:23:13] ▶

websites where there's a lot of information so one is the national ufo reporting center that's run by

[1:23:13 - 1:23:18] ▶

the mutual ufo network has a database which i was they graciously allowed me to use their database

[1:23:31 - 1:23:37] ▶

print magazines from the 1970s that i'd look for and just get them and and um find these cases where

[1:23:54 - 1:24:01] ▶

are people seeing these uf usos for the most part is there is there is there one spot in the world

[1:24:02 - 1:24:08] ▶

kind of people are reporting these yeah there are hot spots we probably part of the problem with usos

[1:24:13 - 1:24:19] ▶

is we're all like we live on the land we're landlubbers and so usually you're not out in the middle

[1:24:19 - 1:24:25] ▶

of the pacific ocean so that's a problem right there uh navies are the u.s navies but they don't like to

[1:24:25 - 1:24:30] ▶

people see these they're usually on the coast or maybe they're on a lake or river but if it's an ocean

[1:24:53 - 1:24:58] ▶

base which is most of them it's long along the coast that's where people about like um oil rigs

[1:24:58 - 1:25:03] ▶

yeah a couple of them there's a good one from the gulf of mexico am i a gulf of america gulf of

[1:25:03 - 1:25:08] ▶

there's quite a few from the gulf here quite a few and uh one of my favorite ones this is from the

[1:25:14 - 1:25:19] ▶

rig wrote into new fork the website and he uh described this he said i was with a bunch of

[1:25:25 - 1:25:32] ▶

this humongous gargantuan like football field plus size object comes out of the water dripping water

[1:25:37 - 1:25:45] ▶

to this case he said i spoke with the witness on the phone peter will do that sometimes he said i found

[1:26:04 - 1:26:10] ▶

it's a pretty interesting story and i i tend i mean i read the account and that's one of the cases that

[1:26:21 - 1:26:25] ▶

goes into the third volume of my study did that corroborate any other accounts were there any other

[1:26:25 - 1:26:31] ▶

gargantuan size objects that have been reported over over the years you wonder like what are they doing

[1:26:39 - 1:26:44] ▶

it's like a small city you know it's the best place to hide it really is the oceans are

[1:26:44 - 1:26:49] ▶

i think he's on our list steve he's coming on the podcast is he really yeah he's good good good shout

[1:27:02 - 1:27:08] ▶

you know look at the ocean so a lot of things about it first of all it's non-compressible in other words

[1:27:15 - 1:27:21] ▶

the pressure is constant so that could be that could be helpful it's it's certainly protective

[1:27:21 - 1:27:27] ▶

like if you are from a place where maybe our solar radiation is not necessarily the right thing for you

[1:27:27 - 1:27:32] ▶

you come from somewhere else the ocean is a protective place for that it's uh temperature

[1:27:32 - 1:27:38] ▶

variations are far less in the ocean than they would be above the ocean and a lot of other things

[1:27:38 - 1:27:44] ▶

a water right society sure well the oceans might be feel like home so there are good reasons and then

[1:27:50 - 1:27:57] ▶

yeah and and if you if you are interested in these human creatures well you know that they live on the

[1:28:02 - 1:28:06] ▶

land so we might hang out in the ocean stay out of the way so there's good reasons that the oceans would

[1:28:06 - 1:28:11] ▶

be providing you have the technology to do it but if you've got that then sure why not the uh you asked

[1:28:11 - 1:28:18] ▶

puerto rico really especially the the east west and northern coasts the southern coast yeah but i think

[1:28:25 - 1:28:34] ▶

i just haven't found as many but along the um uh you get like northwest aguadilla man or you go out to

[1:28:34 - 1:28:42] ▶

the east uh the u.s navy's got a big presence at a place called roosevelt roads there facing viecke

[1:28:42 - 1:28:48] ▶

island there's a lot of activity there but north of the island you've got the great puerto rico trench

[1:28:48 - 1:28:53] ▶

so you're talking you find a map almost six miles down it's it's not quite as deep as the mariana

[1:29:11 - 1:29:17] ▶

trench in the pacific but it's you know close and it's quite large several hundred miles so you have um

[1:29:17 - 1:29:24] ▶

not exactly at the trench but it's uh you know not that far from it i guess right or around this area

[1:29:37 - 1:29:43] ▶

roughly the cases go uh good puerto rico trench cases go back to the early 60s that i found maybe even in

[1:29:43 - 1:29:51] ▶

the 50s but they really start to collect in the 60s early 1960s uh gosh there's some good aguadilla cases

[1:29:51 - 1:29:59] ▶

from uh the 70s and the 80s and the 90s and the 2000s like they they've got a throughout there's

[1:29:59 - 1:30:06] ▶

quite a few interesting ones that's a picture on that puerto rico the puerto rico trench go to that

[1:30:06 - 1:30:10] ▶

one to the left over there top left yeah right there blow that up so i can see it

[1:30:10 - 1:30:14] ▶

oh wow tilted so that's that is on is that northeast south is that oriented the right way or is that

[1:30:17 - 1:30:24] ▶

reverse it's northern plate is over here yeah so that north is to the right correct yeah yeah and

[1:30:24 - 1:30:30] ▶

that would mean that agua dia is where on the top left top top top right excuse me top right okay i

[1:30:30 - 1:30:37] ▶

a hard way to put it so years after the fact it comes these stories will come out you know in

[1:30:51 - 1:30:59] ▶

catalina island oh yeah near la there that absolutely the entire uh atlantic seaboard of the united states

[1:31:05 - 1:31:12] ▶

going into canada uh florida where we are is extremely very very active on all sides of the peninsula

[1:31:12 - 1:31:19] ▶

really florida yeah absolutely but going all the way up the eastern u.s coast but then that's

[1:31:19 - 1:31:25] ▶

see here's the problem with this so usos just like ufos or uap now it's very us dominated in terms

[1:31:26 - 1:31:35] ▶

we've got mufon we've got the national ufo reporting center and so we're able to get these other

[1:31:43 - 1:31:48] ▶

regions of the world i don't really think that they have the the same infrastructure for collecting

[1:31:49 - 1:31:54] ▶

these cases right it's hard now there are some area italy the italian researchers

[1:31:54 - 1:31:58] ▶

jacques valet book where there was like a massacre down there polaris yeah yes at the amazon um the

[1:32:36 - 1:32:42] ▶

delta reaching out to the atlantic ocean in the late 70s yes yes yes um and there's a lot of those

[1:32:42 - 1:32:49] ▶

that are jet genuine uso cases so many of those were seen in the water coming out of the water

[1:32:49 - 1:32:57] ▶

entering the water that's an incredibly ecologically important area part of this world i mean it's

[1:32:57 - 1:33:03] ▶

it's the most massive amount of water flow i think going into any ocean on the planet amazon river yeah

[1:33:03 - 1:33:09] ▶

out of the amazon it's massive uh this is incredibly ecologically important and rich like estuary

[1:33:09 - 1:33:16] ▶

going on maybe they're interested in that yeah um but anyway yeah there were some cases in the late 70s

[1:33:22 - 1:33:28] ▶

appears to be the case yeah it was a lot it seemed like the way it was described to me was that there was

[1:33:37 - 1:33:41] ▶

i really like tim uh he went down where the hell was he was it peru maybe anyway just in the last few

[1:34:05 - 1:34:14] ▶

stuff well there's you know tracy's in the next room she could probably jump in on this better than i

[1:35:09 - 1:35:13] ▶

disturbing possibilities that are out there you know out of all the uso cases that you went over

[1:35:54 - 1:36:00] ▶

know more about that 1717 case yeah i'll tell you that right now that's right off the coast of

[1:36:12 - 1:36:16] ▶

martinique that's in the caribbean okay so it's not that far from where we are here we're in florida

[1:36:16 - 1:36:20] ▶

uh the name of the captain i cannot recall his name chevalier something uh he wrote in his log this is so

[1:36:21 - 1:36:30] ▶

i envision like a a straight perpendicular rod of some sort but above the water uh moving along with his ship

[1:36:52 - 1:37:02] ▶

it's not the best case but it's not the worst like it's it was i decided to include it because

[1:37:02 - 1:37:08] ▶

obviously uh absolutely and uh the 18th century which that is part of that i don't know there's not

[1:37:16 - 1:37:23] ▶

many that i have found there's an interesting one off the coast of southern france i think from 1740

[1:37:23 - 1:37:28] ▶

67 and i think that might be it for the only like a couple of cases it really starts going

[1:37:35 - 1:37:41] ▶

the first really good one that i just was kind of really taken by took place in 1825 and this was on

[1:37:42 - 1:37:50] ▶

stories going on here but they were coming back from hawaii and they were going down the pacific

[1:38:01 - 1:38:05] ▶

uh and they were going to end up in chile okay so they were down by uh the cook islands

[1:38:05 - 1:38:12] ▶

islands so it's like way down in the south part of the specific the pacific ocean and it's 3 30 in

[1:38:12 - 1:38:18] ▶

the morning the ships uh there was a naturalist aboard the ship i think of like in the movie master

[1:38:18 - 1:38:24] ▶

and commander they you know the buddy of uh russell crowe the captain was this naturalist uh that they

[1:38:24 - 1:38:31] ▶

had aboard the ship and it's around the same time period so i'm thinking something like that he writes

[1:38:31 - 1:38:36] ▶

you can find the pdf online i have a link to it from my book and he said yeah 3 30 the uh the watch

[1:38:43 - 1:38:49] ▶

on the ship reported a spherical object emerging from the ocean he said it was like it looked like a red

[1:38:49 - 1:39:00] ▶

cannon shot coming out of the water so it was like a deep orange type of a color but incredible

[1:39:00 - 1:39:06] ▶

bright he said it was so bright and he literally said you could pick a pin off the deck it lifted up

[1:39:06 - 1:39:13] ▶

to a certain elevation and then went back down into the water and then came up a second time and then

[1:39:13 - 1:39:20] ▶

went back into the water now you know how many naturalistic explanations can you think of that can

[1:39:20 - 1:39:27] ▶

you read the rest of his diaries i read some of it i mean he was clearly a very uh meticulous

[1:39:34 - 1:39:41] ▶

in his journal from august 12 1825 that's a heck of a case and i thought that's like the first really

[1:39:48 - 1:39:55] ▶

they were off the cook islands so those are i don't know how close they were to that they were

[1:39:59 - 1:40:06] ▶

i i don't think they were close to land i think they were out there they're out in the ocean i don't

[1:40:06 - 1:40:10] ▶

know exactly so he said you know and there's some other good ones from the 19th century there's one

[1:40:10 - 1:40:16] ▶

from uh is he what's that there i i found the story uh block sam with a with an x where is it i

[1:40:16 - 1:40:24] ▶

just found it oh you got it yeah well this is the story good good deal yeah any what does it got you

[1:40:24 - 1:40:32] ▶

got illustrations or what yeah i think this is the illustration of that event oh or at least it's

[1:40:32 - 1:40:38] ▶

included with the story oh okay looks like an iceberg behind it right yeah they weren't by

[1:40:38 - 1:40:45] ▶

icebergs yeah cook islands there wouldn't have been icebergs no but that's the name andrew blocksham

[1:40:45 - 1:40:51] ▶

okay interesting yeah the hms blonde correct that's the ship and what year again 18 25 25 yeah wow

[1:40:51 - 1:41:00] ▶

what was the size of the thing did they do i he you know i don't think he was a direct witness i think

[1:41:01 - 1:41:07] ▶

he was reporting what the night watch reported ah so there's that so he's not a direct witness so

[1:41:07 - 1:41:12] ▶

estimate i get the impression it was kind of large i mean it was noticeable it was very bright lit up the

[1:41:19 - 1:41:24] ▶

deck of the ship by the way so fast forward about 150 years to 1971 okay this is going into my next volume

[1:41:24 - 1:41:34] ▶

uh and uh the uss john f kennedy aircraft carrier so is near puerto rico just saying uh they had just

[1:41:34 - 1:41:46] ▶

and the man operating communications and we have his name he he in fact uh reported this to stephen

[1:41:59 - 1:42:05] ▶

name is james copp with a k and he also reported this to a couple of other um websites uh at the time

[1:42:12 - 1:42:21] ▶

so he's operating communications on the j the jfk carrier 8 30 at night and he says

[1:42:21 - 1:42:31] ▶

suddenly all of the communication he discussed the the way the communications on the ship where he

[1:42:33 - 1:42:37] ▶

but it's really it's kind of not that funny he hears on the intercom someone screaming it's god

[1:42:48 - 1:42:55] ▶

it's the end of the world so he's thinking what is going on he goes he's able to go out and look

[1:42:55 - 1:43:03] ▶

hovering above or near the jfk he said it gave off about half the strength of sunlight

[1:43:13 - 1:43:22] ▶

whatever so he's watching this for maybe half a minute not long and then the ship goes to battle

[1:43:36 - 1:43:42] ▶

station where he says for the next uh 20 25 minutes uh the ship was on general quarters and

[1:43:47 - 1:43:54] ▶

the communications were just down and he also uh stated that he believed that the weapons like aircraft

[1:43:54 - 1:44:02] ▶

like um i think what do they have f4s they were not operational so the aircraft would not fly or

[1:44:02 - 1:44:08] ▶

object i mean to me it's almost it seems like it could have been identical to the one from the 1820s

[1:44:16 - 1:44:21] ▶

i wonder how many of them there are you know because like the most the first one that i ever heard

[1:44:30 - 1:44:35] ▶

about was the tic tac yeah and that thing was like zooming around zipping around and uh i think

[1:44:35 - 1:44:42] ▶

i think there's a good chance there was something below the water there too oh you think you think

[1:44:42 - 1:44:47] ▶

and it's not 100 confirmed but that's what i i think is probably the case but yeah well we the tic

[1:44:51 - 1:44:58] ▶

and there's a lot of good witnesses for that um kevin day who operated the radar aboard the uss princeton

[1:45:10 - 1:45:16] ▶

and great to tell and of course we have david fravor's testimony and and um a number of the

[1:45:22 - 1:45:27] ▶

as well i mean anything that can appear at the what's called the cap the cap point before you get

[1:45:39 - 1:45:45] ▶

anywhere near catalina it's off the coast of that happened off the coast of lower baja california

[1:46:01 - 1:46:05] ▶

think okay not not that far right but off out out there in the pacific

[1:46:11 - 1:46:17] ▶

i have there's a lot of crazy stuff out in the ocean i have a friend who lives in tijuana and he

[1:46:18 - 1:46:22] ▶

says there's all kinds of like ufo stuff going on out there especially like in the water like uso type

[1:46:22 - 1:46:27] ▶

stuff and stuff that you really don't hear about in like the media in the us yeah i think that there's

[1:46:27 - 1:46:31] ▶

who had an interesting uso uh account uh off the yucatan part of it you know on the other side

[1:46:39 - 1:46:46] ▶

the stories are floating around there as it were and uh how i i have no doubt there's far more

[1:46:52 - 1:46:59] ▶

cases that are connected to mexico than we probably you know i have been able to find you know the just

[1:46:59 - 1:47:06] ▶

the reports from like uh robert hastings with the ufos and nukes and the the the saucers showing up

[1:47:06 - 1:47:13] ▶

sub well we have some pretty good account actually the best accounts of that by the way i'm a very big

[1:47:24 - 1:47:29] ▶

but uh yeah the best nuclear submarine stories that i've been able to find i mean there's a

[1:47:36 - 1:47:43] ▶

one or two of american but the soviets soviet union um yeah they have some we we learned about them i think a

[1:47:43 - 1:47:53] ▶

lot of this happened when the soviet union fell in in 1991 and for a while there a lot of these stories

[1:47:53 - 1:48:01] ▶

came out a lot of kgb files and this type of thing and so we uh soviet navy in the late 60s and through

[1:48:01 - 1:48:11] ▶

the 70s and probably beyond reported something and i'm sure i'm going to mispronounce this it's spelled

[1:48:11 - 1:48:18] ▶

sound in the water so soviet submarines and i think this is most active in the northern atlantic

[1:48:24 - 1:48:31] ▶

at first so these objects would be in the water uh they'd hear these bizarre croaking type sounds

[1:48:39 - 1:48:45] ▶

are they engaging in that i don't i don't i'm not aware that the soviets believed that these kovakary

[1:49:16 - 1:49:25] ▶

there was a um apparently a a formal classified study of them that was supposedly within the soviet

[1:49:31 - 1:49:39] ▶

kind of detection one of the things that just fascinates me about uh these usos is like whenever

[1:49:55 - 1:50:03] ▶

i want to feel what is it like to be there so imagine it's the cold war it's the 1960s or 70s and

[1:50:14 - 1:50:23] ▶

you're in the water and you're hunting for the enemy you're a russian you're hunting for the americans

[1:50:23 - 1:50:29] ▶

you're american you're hunting for the russians and it's pitch black and you know and then there's

[1:50:29 - 1:50:36] ▶

you're hunting from their point of view about this i mean honestly i mean uh but the amount of drama

[1:50:46 - 1:50:54] ▶

i don't want to mess it up yeah he's good okay thank you um i i just have to think like the drama

[1:50:58 - 1:51:04] ▶

the human drama has got to be off the charts for these people to have experiences and that was one of the

[1:51:04 - 1:51:10] ▶

rail draws for me to uh to engage in this project yeah that's one of the things i think about a lot

[1:51:10 - 1:51:17] ▶

too like you know there's various ideas of like how many people in the world know the truth about

[1:51:17 - 1:51:23] ▶

this stuff right like how many people that exist on earth know everything outside of the compartmented

[1:51:23 - 1:51:29] ▶

you know that mean people that have all the pieces to the puzzle maybe maybe 100 200 300 yeah i

[1:51:30 - 1:51:34] ▶

people if they do exist if there is anyone who has the whole picture the whole every piece of the pie

[1:51:46 - 1:51:50] ▶

still out there i still hear it's called breakaway civilization so it's the idea that you coined that

[1:52:12 - 1:52:19] ▶

in uh the study of human civilizations is a very um kind of i i once read uh the condensed version

[1:52:26 - 1:52:34] ▶

of a book by arnold toynby a really great historian it's like the mozart of historians in my opinion and

[1:52:34 - 1:52:39] ▶

he wrote this arnold toynby he's a he was a genius okay and i think he died in the 40s um but he wrote this

[1:52:39 - 1:52:48] ▶

something that is really not popular anymore he did these meta historians like he was looking at the grand

[1:52:48 - 1:52:54] ▶

study of human civilizations anyway i was reading that at the time this is 2007 2008 and um i thought you

[1:53:04 - 1:53:13] ▶

know what about a civilization that develops out of the classified world that we don't know about

[1:53:13 - 1:53:23] ▶

during the cold war of of separate scientific infrastructure in the soviet union they had a

[1:53:33 - 1:53:37] ▶

uh which i was really thinking a lot about of course at that time to the point where you would have

[1:54:16 - 1:54:24] ▶

these beings are yeah that you cannot share with the rest of the world right but you that doesn't stop

[1:54:30 - 1:54:35] ▶

proles living on the surface but you you are aware of anti-grav research you have the ability to go off

[1:54:51 - 1:54:57] ▶

world maybe you have the ability to learn who these other beings are more than so that would i called it

[1:54:57 - 1:55:03] ▶

you've got a job in the classified world you go off you punch the clock and you go into your

[1:55:16 - 1:55:21] ▶

the breakaway and then you come home you say hello to your spouse how was work dear oh it's pretty good

[1:55:31 - 1:55:36] ▶

other people have taken the idea joseph farrell we talked about joseph he has he actually wrote about

[1:55:44 - 1:55:49] ▶

that well if you were uh one of the executives of one of those corporations that did have this

[1:56:01 - 1:56:05] ▶

technology that's been evolving since the 50s with some sort of crazy physical understanding of

[1:56:05 - 1:56:11] ▶

physics that uh the rest of the world doesn't even understand and you now have weapons that are more

[1:56:11 - 1:56:18] ▶

powerful than the united states military russia china all of them combined and the head of the

[1:56:18 - 1:56:24] ▶

joint chiefs of staff wants some answers you're gonna give them the double bird you're gonna say off

[1:56:24 - 1:56:30] ▶

you're not getting any of our stuff we could take out every single military on the war in in the

[1:56:30 - 1:56:34] ▶

in the snap of our fingers so like you you don't have to answer to anybody yeah if they're that

[1:56:34 - 1:56:40] ▶

what is the structure of this secrecy for real like who who's running it who's who's the guy in charge

[1:56:46 - 1:56:55] ▶

interesting you know the i had this lady on recently this woman who uh tracks money uh in

[1:57:07 - 1:57:14] ▶

the government and government spending and budgets and stuff like this and she was a head she was a

[1:57:14 - 1:57:18] ▶

worked during the bush administration and she was a part talking about katherine austin fitz yes yeah

[1:57:18 - 1:57:24] ▶

she's a brilliant lady she was explaining yeah she was explaining like how the money that went

[1:57:28 - 1:57:33] ▶

missing when donald rumsfeld did that press conference the day before 9 11 said there was

[1:57:33 - 1:57:36] ▶

four trillion dollars missing from the from from the receipts for the pentagon i think his quote was 2.3

[1:57:37 - 1:57:42] ▶

she has opened up this whole area now the thing about the two point first it was 2.6 trillion in

[1:58:26 - 1:58:32] ▶

the summer of 01 that was 2.3 and that number actually they supposedly got it down to zero uh if you want

[1:58:32 - 1:58:40] ▶

to believe that but but but the what they really were talking about as i understand it and katherine

[1:58:40 - 1:58:46] ▶

that 2.3 trillion dollars went missing you're talking about unresolved uh discrepancies in the

[1:58:52 - 1:58:59] ▶

payments so you've got all these different accounting systems within the pentagon and you've got uh so

[1:58:59 - 1:59:05] ▶

money that's gotten siphoned out and what is the exact number but it's 2.3 trillion dollars would be

[1:59:17 - 1:59:22] ▶

you know the pentagon's official budget in 2001 was something like 300 billion so you're talking

[1:59:23 - 1:59:27] ▶

and she described and katherine forgive me if i get this slightly wrong she said i want to look at the

[1:59:58 - 2:00:05] ▶

uh the full budget of hud is that it and they're like you're not authorized and she

[2:00:06 - 2:00:11] ▶

uh said the hell i'm not authorized so she said they eventually wheeled in she described the library carts

[2:00:12 - 2:00:18] ▶

remember this was uh it was it was like designed by default physically impossible to audit the us

[2:00:39 - 2:00:45] ▶

where these people are uh they do not adhere to the rule of law they are above the rule of law yes and

[2:00:53 - 2:01:00] ▶

priesthood guys in charge and they own everything they control everything but in the last couple of

[2:01:26 - 2:01:34] ▶

parts of that are equally important you have to have the people need to believe that they have a

[2:01:48 - 2:01:54] ▶

in our system but the reality has always been uh there's always been elites there's always been the guys on

[2:02:00 - 2:02:07] ▶

top and throughout all of the 19th and 20th and now 21st century their goal has always been to figure

[2:02:07 - 2:02:14] ▶

out how do we let the people keep believing these little fairy tales while we keep running things the

[2:02:14 - 2:02:18] ▶

way we've always done and that's really what the system is and so now it's a system that is inherently

[2:02:18 - 2:02:24] ▶

everything's now out in the open you can't really um yeah everything's got to be kind of tossed out

[2:02:31 - 2:02:36] ▶

there for the people and it's all a series of manipulations one after the net it's just we get

[2:02:36 - 2:02:41] ▶

sure there will be a lot of really terrible consequences for divulging some of the secret

[2:02:58 - 2:03:03] ▶

the only uh book length treatment on like how could disclosure happen what would how would it how would

[2:03:16 - 2:03:20] ▶

themselves protect themselves to protect the system that's in place right sure they made you rationalize

[2:04:07 - 2:04:11] ▶

gonna believe in that uh however so let's say now in 2010 when we wrote this the country was not nearly as

[2:04:35 - 2:04:47] ▶

polarized as it is now so in 2010 we're envisioning the president goes and tells the world well you

[2:04:47 - 2:04:54] ▶

you know there are people far more conversant with that than me but yes i'm my dad worked at the world

[2:05:37 - 2:05:44] ▶

trade center back in september 01 he had the day off my dad had the day off my dad was a retired new

[2:05:44 - 2:05:49] ▶

york city cop at the time and uh he had a really cool job as a fire safety director as they were called

[2:05:49 - 2:05:57] ▶

at the twin towers yeah he shared his job with a really nice man who i knew who was killed that day

[2:05:57 - 2:06:02] ▶

one of my theories on 9 11 is that um that people that were closest to it and affected by it the most

[2:06:25 - 2:06:30] ▶

emotionally and personally are the ones that have and i could be wrong here though i think you proved

[2:06:30 - 2:06:35] ▶

this wrong but those are the ones that have the least capacity to entertain any no you're right

[2:06:35 - 2:06:43] ▶

any of the alternate ideas of what happened right that that don't go with the narrative right they

[2:06:43 - 2:06:47] ▶

they seem to be the ones that go with the narrative the one the people who are more disconnected from it

[2:06:47 - 2:06:50] ▶

in fact i did a i wrote a little tv series for gaia television um number of years ago on the history

[2:07:02 - 2:07:09] ▶

deeply upset by it and then what you do this is the genius of it you find the solution immediately

[2:07:48 - 2:07:54] ▶

whether it's hitler invading poland and saying we were attacked by the poles which is what he did

[2:07:55 - 2:08:01] ▶

or any other there's a lot of false flags america is the king of false flags especially after world war

[2:08:02 - 2:08:08] ▶

ii and uh all the covert ops that we have done but anyway you create a catastrophe a trauma

[2:08:08 - 2:08:17] ▶

that people freak out over and you identify it you don't you connect the emotion to the intellect

[2:08:17 - 2:08:24] ▶

so you have the emotional connection to some kind of here's the explanation and once once you get that

[2:08:24 - 2:08:30] ▶

and i used to talk to my dad on the phone about this and um i have to be careful because i could

[2:08:39 - 2:08:45] ▶

are you looking into i just saw this pbs thing and it just showed he talked about the pancake theory

[2:08:54 - 2:08:59] ▶

that was put out the total theory but it was that was put out within a week of the event this guy

[2:08:59 - 2:09:06] ▶

that theory roughly the the planes crashing caused a pancaking effect oh yeah of the one floor on the

[2:09:11 - 2:09:18] ▶

other floor and all the way down it did not happen that way at all but it was so anyway that goes on to

[2:09:18 - 2:09:25] ▶

uh and then he he was like he really had a struggle with the fact that his son was going

[2:09:33 - 2:09:41] ▶

all into this alternative theory about 9 11 and i talk with him every week on the phone and um

[2:09:41 - 2:09:46] ▶

um yeah what it would look like and what the incentives would be for disclosure and how um

[2:09:58 - 2:10:03] ▶

he hits the scene in 2015 basically actually it will do better on youtube if you say trump yeah well

[2:10:19 - 2:10:25] ▶

and you know i mean how do i how do you talk about this without uh 50 of the population

[2:10:27 - 2:10:35] ▶

basically you have a guy who comes in that is the ultra most polarizing political figure that we've had

[2:10:41 - 2:10:47] ▶

and you've got half the country half the world maybe saying i don't believe you yeah they're not

[2:11:06 - 2:11:11] ▶

about the congressional thing and yeah skeptics will just how they'll just jump on anything

[2:11:46 - 2:11:51] ▶

probably in that camp where if the top top top level of government came out and said aliens are real

[2:11:57 - 2:12:03] ▶

i would probably think the opposite or something there's some sort of weird mix right i mean there's

[2:12:03 - 2:12:08] ▶

you cannot and whatever the government tells them they they think the opposite is true you're probably

[2:12:13 - 2:12:17] ▶

going to be right to a certain extent think of i think of the ufo reality as a mountain right

[2:12:17 - 2:12:21] ▶

it's a sliver that will provide the cover your ass rule very effectively to make you look as good as

[2:12:37 - 2:12:43] ▶

hell for this and you know what can i say but i do think that a lot of the people who are pushing

[2:12:58 - 2:13:03] ▶

and i think he's he's i think he's on the right side of this that's my belief people can say you're

[2:13:09 - 2:13:17] ▶

you know you're naive whatever uh lou elizondo i'll say the same thing uh christopher mellon these are

[2:13:17 - 2:13:23] ▶

guy like elizondo people complain that he's harps on the national security thing but he's

[2:13:44 - 2:13:48] ▶

nature you can never not expect that but um but there are definitely the secrets the real hardcore

[2:14:25 - 2:14:32] ▶

out in the public and start talking about this stuff to whether or not or do you even think about

[2:14:49 - 2:14:54] ▶

extent yeah yeah and have more or less people in the government trying to encourage them look the

[2:15:29 - 2:15:38] ▶

that department but they provide no no background where you can verify anything like the first thing

[2:16:04 - 2:16:09] ▶

uh secondly you know that you have to not jump to conclusions probably the first best thing you could do

[2:16:16 - 2:16:25] ▶

this is why like i'm not always really comfortable talking about the every like latest little story

[2:16:42 - 2:16:48] ▶

to go chasing after the latest headline yeah yeah which is a problem because ideally what you want to do

[2:17:02 - 2:17:08] ▶

than you do who know more about the history of aviation than you do who know more about the

[2:17:16 - 2:17:19] ▶

a little controversial it was much more controversial in the past and uh part of it is like you

[2:17:39 - 2:17:45] ▶

of the consistency of what he said over a number of years the fact that i never felt he

[2:18:05 - 2:18:11] ▶

was telling the truth yeah it seems to me that that he would be a great candidate for the cia to choose

[2:18:44 - 2:18:50] ▶

to come there because he's so easily discreditable because of his background and some of the stuff

[2:18:50 - 2:18:54] ▶

that he was yeah yeah that's right um like the the the brothel and the other stuff yeah he did uh

[2:18:54 - 2:19:01] ▶

right whatever he did and there was a weird thing about his wife that happened to the first wife

[2:19:06 - 2:19:11] ▶

this thing but then if you're looking at it from the reverse side of the lens if you're some

[2:19:33 - 2:19:38] ▶

intelligence operation trying to do something and protect yourself in case the cat gets out of the

[2:19:38 - 2:19:43] ▶

if you hear his story like the way he tells it he made the initiative to do all of this so he he was

[2:19:49 - 2:19:55] ▶

very unhappy with his employment situation at the time he had met edward teller right the vendor of the

[2:19:55 - 2:20:03] ▶

fuse for the h-bomb and i think the original dr strangelove i i suspect uh in los alamos in the

[2:20:03 - 2:20:11] ▶

like he's a brilliant guy he developed his jet car right and it made the cover of the los alamos

[2:20:19 - 2:20:25] ▶

lazar's like i'm gonna and he he was able to get a the job with egng which got him out to s4 and then

[2:20:36 - 2:20:44] ▶

the only reason that he went public is he uh bob lazar forgive me if i'm getting any of this wrong

[2:20:44 - 2:20:53] ▶

of his at the time and they start going out to watch the uh displays of the craft and i think

[2:20:59 - 2:21:06] ▶

the second time out they got caught and he got into some serious trouble and you know had that not

[2:21:06 - 2:21:12] ▶

stayed in in the stayed in the in the biz and i could have but he would have been a lifer and we've

[2:21:18 - 2:21:23] ▶

he doesn't seem to give a he says what he says did you watch the interview with him or the

[2:21:37 - 2:21:42] ▶

ever ever ever believed lazar's story i called him a fraud you know when i first uh the first time i

[2:22:01 - 2:22:08] ▶

i wasn't yet 40 and anyway so i meet with stan and he wanted the first thing you want to know about me

[2:22:23 - 2:22:28] ▶

was what was my position on that's the litmus test yeah and i was like at that time i hadn't even

[2:22:28 - 2:22:34] ▶

i wasn't even really conversant with lazar's story i had just worked my ass off to get the story of ufos

[2:22:34 - 2:22:42] ▶

up to 1973 that was the end of my first volume and uh lazar you know he was after that and i was

[2:22:42 - 2:22:48] ▶

if i had the proper perspective on lazar and i actually i've always i mean i really appreciate

[2:22:54 - 2:23:02] ▶

off to the side until i felt that i had spent enough time to research it yeah and um yeah at that time

[2:23:21 - 2:23:28] ▶

this is still in the early 2000s in the late 90s and but a lot of lazar's interviews were available

[2:23:28 - 2:23:36] ▶

he doesn't do any interviews no but in the early 90s he did quite a bit why do you think do you have

[2:23:42 - 2:23:46] ▶

any idea why stopped or do you have any uh theories it's hard for me to speak for him uh the impression

[2:23:46 - 2:23:51] ▶

that one gets is that he just got sick and tired of the field and that there was you know it's like time

[2:23:51 - 2:23:55] ▶

also there's all these other whistleblowers that come out and one of the most recent ones that really

[2:24:11 - 2:24:15] ▶

screwed my mind up was um the guy who went on jesse michael's podcast who was talking about

[2:24:17 - 2:24:22] ▶

kidnapping kids from indonesia after an earthquake and then michael herrera is that the one so herrera

[2:24:22 - 2:24:31] ▶

and i jesse michael's great podcast it's the herrera it's basically the herrera story yeah right he i mean

[2:24:37 - 2:24:43] ▶

have it but you've got the wrong interpretation of it i think like it's not a human trafficking kind of

[2:25:09 - 2:25:13] ▶

thing sure i think he got a kind of he so yeah so jesse brought up brought that up about the human

[2:25:13 - 2:25:18] ▶

for children who were left-handed and homosexual because they have the highest psychic psychic

[2:25:37 - 2:25:44] ▶

abilities and it's like what the fuck are you talking about well hey leonardo da vinci was one

[2:25:44 - 2:25:49] ▶

on this one i just haven't uh i mean i'm aware of the story and we mentioned stan friedman stan

[2:26:15 - 2:26:22] ▶

maybe we can we can move on from there but that's the problem with a lot of the elements in this field

[2:26:49 - 2:26:56] ▶

you're dealing with i mean by its very nature the ufo let me just keep saying ufo because i'm so used

[2:26:56 - 2:27:02] ▶

but i am absolutely convinced we don't fully appreciate the depth of what it really means

[2:27:15 - 2:27:21] ▶

i mean look imagine being across the table not from me but from one of them and imagine they have

[2:27:21 - 2:27:30] ▶

into all the little avenues and recesses and like and they don't laugh at your jokes so we're gonna run

[2:27:41 - 2:27:46] ▶

for the hills and they're and and even if they look like us like that's intimidating that there's

[2:27:46 - 2:27:52] ▶

right the ufo whether it be abduction or a sighting or anything that's like there's no solid evidence

[2:28:15 - 2:28:21] ▶

one way or the other that you know for a fact is true oh wow prob probably uh i don't i don't know

[2:28:21 - 2:28:30] ▶

of tough on the spot a story that has no whether it be like a like a i mean other than the fact that

[2:28:36 - 2:28:43] ▶

you know obviously we have like things like the tic tac where right it's like a we know that's

[2:28:43 - 2:28:47] ▶

we've had people testify and there's there's the the footage like the go fast and the fleer stuff but

[2:28:47 - 2:28:52] ▶

know for a fact well one i mean this isn't a ufo incident but this was the davis wilson notes that

[2:29:07 - 2:29:13] ▶

came out in 2019 that that document i knew it was real and there were a lot of people at the time

[2:29:17 - 2:29:23] ▶

off at the rest of the research community because i was for a little while the only the only person

[2:29:34 - 2:29:40] ▶

really yes yes he mentioned knowledge of it at the time when at when um the ass when um

[2:30:35 - 2:30:42] ▶

the astronaut died when uh no prior before before that yeah i think in his volume that covers uh 2000 to

[2:30:43 - 2:30:51] ▶

he did in 2019 2020 and then just just at the briefing elizondo this is one good thing elizondo did he

[2:31:09 - 2:31:18] ▶

if you really listen to him even in the briefing it's quite obvious he makes it clear without saying

[2:31:32 - 2:31:37] ▶

talk more about the military aspect of this uso stuff yeah yeah yeah um what before we do that one of my

[2:32:06 - 2:32:13] ▶

about it with jesse when he was on here that there was a decommissioned i think it was a navy base in the

[2:32:18 - 2:32:26] ▶

sosus when it was developed the sound undersea uh sonar uh system and it was originally set up in that

[2:32:41 - 2:32:52] ▶

area like near the bahamas so i don't know if that's what he's referring to no this was a base

[2:32:52 - 2:32:56] ▶

um steve if you pull up the podcast i did with jesse it's in the timestamps i think it's its own

[2:32:58 - 2:33:03] ▶

talking about the atlantic oh tech yeah oh tech oh tech that's what it was okay

[2:33:13 - 2:33:17] ▶

so um apparently what what i for the way i understand it is they had some sort of

[2:33:20 - 2:33:25] ▶

what he has to say yeah one of the things that i try to do with this study is two things what so one

[2:33:47 - 2:33:53] ▶

is track the cases and then the other is to try to understand the technological military political

[2:33:53 - 2:34:02] ▶

and other related developments that went on at the same time so when i try to structure this book

[2:34:03 - 2:34:08] ▶

these books um i break them into chapters and at the beginning of each chapter i try to highlight like

[2:34:08 - 2:34:15] ▶

the development of a lot of the navy systems goes has gone into that section of of each book uh the

[2:34:20 - 2:34:26] ▶

related it's all similar it's basically their system for probing into the world under the water so off

[2:34:31 - 2:34:40] ▶

the top of my head i don't really know what else to say about it but okay it's as that description there

[2:34:40 - 2:34:45] ▶

says uh secretive testing of underwater vehicles yeah they they called it the underwater area 51.

[2:34:45 - 2:34:53] ▶

region here and so the fact that they've got something down there in the bahamas i just think it's kind of

[2:35:17 - 2:35:22] ▶

interesting because that's a very very active area for usos in general one of the fascinating things

[2:35:22 - 2:35:27] ▶

was a part of this base somehow well there's an underwater version of the nro um and it's n uro

[2:35:36 - 2:35:46] ▶

uh national underwater um forget the acronym there's a a brilliant uh uf uh ufo podcaster on youtube uh

[2:35:46 - 2:35:58] ▶

the national underwater reconnaissance yeah that's it yeah responsible for underwater reconnaissance and

[2:36:09 - 2:36:15] ▶

operates primarily in the waters of the soviet union started in 1969 and it's there's a history

[2:36:15 - 2:36:20] ▶

against the soviet union out of the sea of what coasts off the coast of kamchatka there and uh they

[2:36:29 - 2:36:35] ▶

into soviet uh communications and this is back in like 1970 71 when they did that using uh the halibut

[2:36:43 - 2:36:51] ▶

i think that was the summer the submersible they used oh wow i think that was the one

[2:36:51 - 2:36:56] ▶

or maybe the sea i think the halibut i can't remember but they um were able to get very valuable

[2:36:57 - 2:37:03] ▶

know they're they are the underwater nro they are incredibly secretive yeah i heard that there's like

[2:37:25 - 2:37:31] ▶

that are within the government or the deep state i'm sure that we'll probably we'll probably never

[2:37:39 - 2:37:44] ▶

know about like i never i never would imagine i never knew that the nro had anything to do with ufos

[2:37:44 - 2:37:48] ▶

well they're a good candidate for it actually but we didn't know the nro existed until the 1990s

[2:37:49 - 2:37:54] ▶

they existed in total secrecy for over 30 years yeah uh the nsa you know jokingly referred to as no

[2:37:54 - 2:38:01] ▶

such agency was completely secret for more than its first decade until the 70s it came out right well

[2:38:01 - 2:38:09] ▶

there was a book in 1964 called the invisible government uh that mentioned it it was one book

[2:38:09 - 2:38:16] ▶

that and but no i don't really think it was truly appreciated what the nsa was and then it came out more in

[2:38:16 - 2:38:23] ▶

the 70s and but it's still like to this day it's quite secretive you know but that was a secret

[2:38:23 - 2:38:30] ▶

in all this that was still completely off off the boards no one knew about it really so i believe

[2:38:50 - 2:38:57] ▶

ago i think that's right so you've what we really have what the united states is of course is a a

[2:39:04 - 2:39:09] ▶

massive empire that's trying to dominate has always tried to dominate the world especially since world

[2:39:09 - 2:39:14] ▶

war ii and as a result puts institutions and agencies in place that it doesn't think the

[2:39:14 - 2:39:23] ▶

fits was telling me about is all the money that's going to these underground bunkers and underground

[2:39:46 - 2:39:51] ▶

uh like basically like underground cities that are connected by highways all around the country and

[2:39:51 - 2:39:58] ▶

she's saying that it's very possible that like trillions of dollars are going to the going to these

[2:39:58 - 2:40:01] ▶

things yeah i've i've spoken with her about this in fact uh off the record and it's a real possibility

[2:40:01 - 2:40:10] ▶

you know i i um used to know there was a researcher uh by the name of richard souder dr richard souder

[2:40:10 - 2:40:16] ▶

and uh is he the guy that was killed no not too much i think he's still alive okay yeah you might be thinking of um

[2:40:16 - 2:40:23] ▶

spazzing out of the souder yeah so richard souder did uh a number of books in the 90s on in the early

[2:40:36 - 2:40:43] ▶

so he looked into the um technologies that we know exist to go deep under the ground

[2:40:51 - 2:41:00] ▶

and to go deep under the ocean floor and that this is not an impossibility um we actually have

[2:41:00 - 2:41:07] ▶

the ability all you really need is you need the ability to dig and if you're going to have a base

[2:41:07 - 2:41:14] ▶

permanently there you've got to be able to extract oxygen from the water but we've had that technology

[2:41:14 - 2:41:19] ▶

that's what nuclear submarines are able to they're not they're not under the water with uh you know

[2:41:20 - 2:41:25] ▶

supplies of oxygen tanks they have to extract oxygen out of the waters i think it's called

[2:41:25 - 2:41:30] ▶

it's theoretical one thing that richard found was he ran into this uh guy who did illustrations for the

[2:41:46 - 2:41:53] ▶

u.s navy back in the late 60s and he was asked to develop a series of illustrations uh portraying

[2:41:53 - 2:42:03] ▶

the uh prov bird lives there um so we don't want to agree with you i'm trying to consider

[2:42:45 - 2:42:52] ▶

but i wouldn't doubt that it's that it's a possibility yeah uh thinking of the other guy schneider phil schneider

[2:43:01 - 2:43:05] ▶

phil schneider of course might be the guy you're thinking oh yes phil schneider uh that's a whole

[2:43:05 - 2:43:11] ▶

and the fact that if there is some breakaway civilization it's most likely going to be these

[2:43:30 - 2:43:35] ▶

bankers yeah like top level bankers that control all the money i think that's got to be true and

[2:43:35 - 2:43:42] ▶

an open window in the room yeah and the money's just flying out right right so uh yeah she says

[2:43:53 - 2:43:59] ▶

it's like we don't have a closed system it's open and it's that's so uh that could really be the case

[2:43:59 - 2:44:05] ▶

than i can about it but the way she describes it seems quite quite logical and then you have these

[2:44:11 - 2:44:17] ▶

all this work gets tons of money from the intelligence community and the u.s government

[2:44:24 - 2:44:31] ▶

to do all of this work and this is probably responsible for a lot of the money that he's

[2:44:31 - 2:44:36] ▶

all the nasa space missions and just looking through them and he wasn't just some wide-eyed

[2:45:47 - 2:45:50] ▶

uh quite explicit quite explicit about uh bizarre anomalies there's a the popovich couple marina and

[2:46:27 - 2:46:37] ▶

pavel popovich of the soviet union both highly regarded uh cosmonauts in that country both spoke quite

[2:46:37 - 2:46:44] ▶

a wave of the hand as he seems to do i i find very curious yeah have you heard of the uh the guy who

[2:47:03 - 2:47:10] ▶

allegedly works for him who works for the nro who uh i think diana pisolka wrote about him in her first

[2:47:10 - 2:47:16] ▶

read him into all this super secret stuff talked about all these crazy oh this the high level nasa

[2:47:21 - 2:47:25] ▶

apparently like mapped the moon and then uh there was this other guy um i think his name was tim who

[2:47:29 - 2:47:35] ▶

canaveral which is like two and a half hours from here yeah and said that when you go through the

[2:47:43 - 2:47:47] ▶

some of the stuff i could believe i could believe what she wrote i don't i can't say that i know but i

[2:48:09 - 2:48:15] ▶

chris bledsoe and quite a few of them have come out and and made the assertion that he is like a

[2:48:26 - 2:48:34] ▶

uh a couple of years ago i think it might have been it might have been the first extended interview

[2:48:43 - 2:48:49] ▶

family they're very good people and his uh original sighting the one from 20 2007 i don't think there's

[2:49:06 - 2:49:13] ▶

attest to that certainly there's him there's his son and the other witnesses um i think all have come out

[2:49:18 - 2:49:24] ▶

i i don't think there's any reason to doubt that and that's an extraordinary ufo the org stuff uh there

[2:49:24 - 2:49:30] ▶

was a craft that they definitely saw in the woods in north carolina yeah yeah yeah so i have no reason

[2:49:30 - 2:49:37] ▶

to doubt that at all and and the subsequent activities that have had that have happened on

[2:49:37 - 2:49:45] ▶

um the thing that just raises my hairs is the fact that all these people from intelligence and and

[2:50:14 - 2:50:21] ▶

and they're they're screwing with them yeah i love benowitz okay the other possibility is that they

[2:50:27 - 2:50:32] ▶

would that not be a possibility one of the things about about stephen greer is that you know he

[2:50:40 - 2:50:45] ▶

develops these protocols he calls them the ce5 protocol yeah yeah okay so people have different

[2:50:45 - 2:50:50] ▶

phenomenon that's real and there is no question as well that greer did get interest from the national

[2:50:58 - 2:51:07] ▶

security state i think partly because of this you know one of the things he talked about and it's true

[2:51:07 - 2:51:12] ▶

as far as i can see it's absolutely true is he met with a gentleman named john peterson of the arlington

[2:51:12 - 2:51:16] ▶

institute who was for many years on the short list of you know dod secretaries and things like that

[2:51:16 - 2:51:22] ▶

he was one but he's he's up there uh and also the then director of the cia james wolsey and their wives

[2:51:22 - 2:51:29] ▶

all of their power they went to some dinner together yeah they had dinner and this is i think in the late

[2:51:30 - 2:51:33] ▶

uh in uh the early 90s you know under clinton yeah so why would they do that i mean that's you know

[2:51:39 - 2:51:50] ▶

in the early 90s is there any is there any proof that he had that meeting yes there is because the

[2:51:50 - 2:51:57] ▶

argument is over what the what it constituted uh guerrero was called it a briefing yeah and they

[2:51:57 - 2:52:05] ▶

who knew him you know he was this guy who had just gotten into the ufo field yeah um medical doctor

[2:52:40 - 2:52:46] ▶

talking about crop circles in england in the early 90s he did a little bit of that and

[2:52:46 - 2:52:51] ▶

he was basically making the case that um essentially what the news article showed was uh the description of

[2:53:12 - 2:53:19] ▶

greer the publishing in the newspaper of greer how he got married when he got married to his wife and all

[2:53:19 - 2:53:25] ▶

this stuff and it was like a little blurb in the newspaper how he got married at the baha'i institute

[2:53:25 - 2:53:29] ▶

in haifa and i've never heard him talk about any of this stuff and this was like in the i think it was

[2:53:29 - 2:53:35] ▶

in the 70s or late 70s maybe and this guy was making the case and that according because that he

[2:53:35 - 2:53:43] ▶

just this is part of the territory when you're trying to navigate these things in the public and

[2:54:14 - 2:54:20] ▶

you know it's just part of this it's just i feel like it's part of the things that you have to sort of

[2:54:45 - 2:54:49] ▶

put out there and question when you're put in the place of of trying to evaluate whether these people

[2:54:49 - 2:54:54] ▶

it's of profound significance and so that means there are people who have a stake um on the pro side

[2:55:07 - 2:55:15] ▶

and on the on the con side that want to keep this where it is because it is it's highly disruptive and so

[2:55:15 - 2:55:22] ▶

assets in academia when appropriate they will use their assets wherever they can within the community itself

[2:55:35 - 2:55:40] ▶

if need be and there's always been very high paranoia within the ufo community

[2:55:40 - 2:55:47] ▶

yeah uh specifically like that i can absolutely say they're working for the uh the government

[2:56:07 - 2:56:12] ▶

or the intel community i've had suspicions i continue to have suspicions and i i'm not going

[2:56:13 - 2:56:18] ▶

to get into that but well if anyone wins it's the intelligence agencies because because i mean

[2:56:23 - 2:56:28] ▶

according to the youtube comments i'm an op and then i question i question myself i've been called it

[2:56:28 - 2:56:33] ▶

works in the uh if there is some sort of uh general opportunity in the intelligence community to cover up

[2:56:44 - 2:56:55] ▶

secrets the fact that everyone on social media thinks everyone is working for an intelligence agency is a

[2:56:55 - 2:57:02] ▶

a bit if you don't mind so i um you know i got into this whole field in the 90s when conspiracy theories

[2:57:07 - 2:57:18] ▶

jim mars had already written his great book um crossfire the plot to kill kennedy i was good friends with

[2:57:24 - 2:57:29] ▶

jim mars i loved jim mars he was a great man uh but anyway like the 90s were it was you were kind of

[2:57:29 - 2:57:37] ▶

me 9 11 was what put me over the top by the way 9 11 put me and i think a lot of people full on in

[2:57:49 - 2:57:57] ▶

the government as actively lying about basically every single thing like i went there and i'm still

[2:57:57 - 2:58:03] ▶

there but the problem is when you think that everything is an op so that's a bit of a problem

[2:58:03 - 2:58:12] ▶

for me too like uh i said earlier like i almost wrote a book on false flags in the history of it so

[2:58:12 - 2:58:20] ▶

that's ever existed it's a really dangerous solvent for the a certain amount of social cohesion we have

[2:58:59 - 2:59:07] ▶

to have you have to have there's got to be a way to have some trust in things that come at you but the

[2:59:07 - 2:59:13] ▶

makes a claim about anything frequently from a lot of people the first thing you'll hear is oh that

[2:59:28 - 2:59:34] ▶

not we're not listening the one thing we're not doing is is hearing their message we're not actually

[2:59:51 - 2:59:57] ▶

listening to their information or not evaluating the information we're judging the person because we

[2:59:57 - 3:00:03] ▶

think they're an op and they work for this organization here and the fact is when you look at the ufo

[3:00:03 - 3:00:09] ▶

knowledge sphere over many years go back to the 1950s this is a period i've studied a lot

[3:00:09 - 3:00:15] ▶

there were a lot of military insiders in the 1950s who were totally of the belief that we need to get

[3:00:16 - 3:00:24] ▶

for the army or the navy am i supposed to then say oh well they've got some kind of they've got an agenda to

[3:00:29 - 3:00:35] ▶

their information and the fact is that there are people from every part of the spectrum here in this

[3:00:42 - 3:00:48] ▶

are they on the good side or the bad side that's that's not good because there's information coming

[3:01:02 - 3:01:07] ▶

who have a pragmatic view of all of this stuff and are able to take the information from all these cases

[3:01:12 - 3:01:18] ▶

much younger i didn't think of myself as a pragmatist by nature i didn't really know that but over the

[3:01:30 - 3:01:35] ▶

that the world is you know i had a i grew up with a very liberal mother and a pretty conservative father

[3:01:57 - 3:02:03] ▶

uh you know as as we're in the world today i i just i take it as a given that there's always going to

[3:02:25 - 3:02:31] ▶

be people people out there who don't see the world the way i do and what am i supposed to like condemn them

[3:02:31 - 3:02:37] ▶

uh and just say well you're you're morally suspect because you have a different perspective on the

[3:02:37 - 3:02:44] ▶

world than i do that's kind of ridiculous but yeah we do it we do it all the time people on the right

[3:02:44 - 3:02:48] ▶

and the left they all do it and it's uh it's very unfortunate we get all apocalyptic about things yeah

[3:02:48 - 3:02:54] ▶

levels but uh the fact is that it is is not for me to um to write someone off just because they see

[3:03:00 - 3:03:10] ▶

the world differently than i do right well richard that was three hours you're kidding that was

[3:03:10 - 3:03:16] ▶

it's in uh ebook it's paperback and hardcover and this week i expect the audio book finally to be out

[3:03:32 - 3:03:39] ▶

speak highly enough about the members of the site uh and i got my own youtube channel it's uh just

[3:03:54 - 3:03:59] ▶

of the jfk assassination well he was definitely killed in a conspiracy in my opinion yes i would

[3:04:22 - 3:04:29] ▶

definitely lay the uh most of it at the cia and uh the the deep state um i think kennedy's assassination

[3:04:29 - 3:04:38] ▶

i liken it to agatha christie's murder on the orient express and plot spoiler everyone did it in that book

[3:04:38 - 3:04:45] ▶

everyone did everyone had a motive to kill this guy and that's jfk he was the his biggest problem

[3:04:45 - 3:04:53] ▶

i feel is that he really believed he was the president who could run things and he ran into a

[3:04:53 - 3:04:57] ▶

you had ufos are part of that that's not right a trivial part of it not the whole thing though no

[3:05:04 - 3:05:10] ▶

no i think the uh the nuclear issue you know he was talking about nuclear disarmament with the

[3:05:10 - 3:05:14] ▶

with the soviet yep so what he was showing and then cuba that whole thing yep and shutting down

[3:05:14 - 3:05:19] ▶

famously he wanted to scatter the cia to the winds and uh he tried you know he fired alan dulles and

[3:05:27 - 3:05:35] ▶

was the ultimate motivation i think the ultimate motivation was they were like no way we're gonna

[3:05:42 - 3:05:48] ▶

let this guy run the country for another month because he is he is a danger on too many levels yeah

[3:05:48 - 3:05:54] ▶

that's what they thought here's my book i totally agree there we go the history of usos

[3:05:55 - 3:06:00] ▶

all of the cases i've written them all i'm happy with how they read i keep adding new cases but uh

[3:06:05 - 3:06:11] ▶

questions for our uh beautiful patreon subscribers so we'll do that separately from the podcast we'll

[3:06:26 - 3:06:30] ▶

rip through a couple of these questions if you don't mind yeah um gladly but that's all for the

[3:06:30 - 3:06:34] ▶

Underwater Area 51: Best Evidence Aliens Live Deep Under Our Oceans | Richard Dolan